The wrong decision
Prime Minister John Key says he will not meet the Dalai Lama when he visits New Zealand next month.
The decision goes against Mr Key’s previous statements that he would meet the Tibetan spiritual leader if his diary permitted, but he denied it had been made after pressure from China.
“The reason simply is I’ve decided that I wouldn’t get a lot out of that particular meeting. I don’t see every religious leader that comes to town. I’ve seen him in the past, I may see him in the future.” …
He said the issue was not raised by Chinese president Hu Jintao during the Apec summit in Singapore at the weekend, and no other Chinese government agency had asked for a meeting not to proceed.
This is an appalling decision.It is bad enough China oppresses its own citizens, but even worse when the NZ Government effectively practises self-censorship so not to offend them.
Even worse is that this encourages China to carry on trying to dictate whom other countries can or can not meet. Just as the response to the Danish cartoons threats should have been every paper in the world publishing them, the response to China’s threats (and the are well known even if not repeated directly to the PM) over the Dalai Llama should be a policy to make sure one always meets with him.
One has to make the attempt to censor, counter-productive. That is the only way that they may learn and stop one day.
Again, this is an appalling decision.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Key’s commitment to meeting with the Dalai Lama was one of the things that did impress me about him. It seemed to fly in the face of Labour voter stereotypes of National putting economic interests over people (yes, I know that’s a false dichotomy).
What he would get out of meeting with the Dalai Lama would be setting an example for other world leaders not to kowtow to repressive superpowers.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Neville Key at his best. a razor sharp response from the great (past) hope.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
So he not going to even do ‘a fancy running into you here’ meeting.
looking back these were the words he used in a report’
Mr Key has said he will meet the Buddhist leader when he comes, calling the Dalai Lama a “significant visitor”.
So he becomes a nobody once the Chinese use a ‘cut throat’ gesture.
Flip Flop
November 18th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Nothing (apart from assumption?) suggests the Chinese influenced this.
So should Key meet every visiting religious or political leader so as not to offend them?
Would the DL be offended? Why is he coming here anyway? Does he care if he sees Key or not?
And the key question – is there anything it in for us?
November 18th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Leave Big John alone, at least he finally actually made a decision, Aah John mediocrity at it’s best.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
I reckon an eel has more spine than Key. He’s pandered to the Chinese and who knows else.
The PM’s behaviour is shameful and a disgrace to the nation
November 18th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
He should meet with the DL, because he said he would. It is naive to think the decision not to meet is unrelated to the Chinese Government.
I don’t care about the DL being offended. Personally don’t have much time for the bizarre little man. But what I do have time for is freedom of speech.
What is in it for us, is showing that we are a country that doesn’t let foreign governments dictate whom our political leaders can meet. Otherwise we might as well be a colony.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Key kowtows.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Hell, they made a Heineken ad about us not being bossed around. Or was it Steinlager? Something green, I’m sure.
Hell, they made an ad promoting Willem Dafoe about us not being bossed around.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Hmm, sounds familiar, Shipley hid the protestors from sight so the poor Chinese leaders weren’t made to lose face, Clark bent over backwards to accommodate them, and now Key is doing the same.
We’re happy to preach virtue and open politics to little Fiji, but our standards fly out the window as soon as China is in the picture.
November 18th, 2009 at 4:44 pm
He’s just doing what his boyfriend is telling him to.
“Now, uh, uh, James- sorry, John, uh, I can’t have you, uh, talking to the, uh, Daily Camel because that might, uh, uh, upset China, and, uh, I’ve, uh, longed believed in, uh, not containing China and, uh, letting it expand, so, uh, ignore the camel, and, uh, you might get that free trade deal we talked about.”
November 18th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Let’s face it, The Dalai Lama is nothing much more than a terrorist.
Who exactly does he actually represent these days?
The PM has more important things to do.
Let Keith Locke meet the Dalai, at least they have something in common.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Mike S (202) Vote: 1 0 Says:
November 18th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Hmm, sounds familiar, Shipley hid the protestors from sight so the poor Chinese leaders weren’t made to lose face, Clark bent over backwards to accommodate them, and now Key is doing the same.
We’re happy to preach virtue and open politics to little Fiji, but our standards fly out the window as soon as China is in the picture”
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“but our standards fly out the window as soon as money and power is in the picture”
Fixed that for you.
This sort of thing should be an excellent example to us of why we need a larger, more diversified, economy and more capable armed forces. John Key, now that he is PM he must deal with reality, China can fuck us over and there is nothing we can do about it, by ourselves. As one poster on Arrse once said” Never stand up for yourself unless you have an exit strategy”
November 18th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
‘. . . And I heard him tell the Jewish Chronicle, “I will be the third Jewish prime minister in New Zealand” . . . ‘
Have not the people of Tibet, more than many other countries, suffered a holocaust?
November 18th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Move that bus!
November 18th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Yvette (312) Vote: 0 0 Says:
November 18th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
‘. . . And I heard him tell the Jewish Chronicle, “I will be the third Jewish prime minister in New Zealand” . . . ‘
Have not the people of Tibet, more than many other countries, suffered a holocaust?”
************************************************************************
Israel is not a major power with a huge economy and a free trade agreement with NZ that could have ‘technical difficulties’.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
“The decision goes against Mr Key’s previous statements that he would meet the Tibetan spiritual leader if his diary permitted, but he denied it had been made after pressure from China.”
No pressure needed. China doesn’t need to pressure anyone because they can rely on political leaders to understand the realities of power and cringe all by themselves.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Stuart Mackey – re: Israel
My point was that people get very upset about the Jewish Holocaust, but are we [ie: John Key] going to ignore what has gone on in Tibet?
November 18th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
That’s right! If only we had an air force, why, then we could tell the Red Army what for!
November 18th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Sam Buchanan (170) Vote: 0 0 Says:
November 18th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
No pressure needed. China doesn’t need to pressure anyone because they can rely on political leaders to understand the realities of power and cringe all by themselves.
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Ding! Ding! We have a winner!
Simple fact of the matter is, Ladies and Germs, a nation such as NZ does not get to stand up for its principles unless the bigger powers support us, and on this issue they are not going to do so because they may need something from China in the future or indeed the present.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
Yvette (314) Vote: 0 0 Says:
November 18th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Stuart Mackey – re: Israel
My point was that people get very upset about the Jewish Holocaust, but are we [ie: John Key] going to ignore what has gone on in Tibet?”
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Yes, Yevette, we are going to ignore Tibet because to do otherwise would run the risk of screwing over NZ. Now this is not nice, I dislike this fact intensely, but this is how the world works, you look out for your own interests first and its not in our interests to look out for Tibet’s interests, mmmk?
November 18th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
Ryan Sproull – “Hell, they made a Heineken ad about us not being bossed around.”
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Unfortunately Key must have come in on the end of the ad and only got the bit about saying “No!”
November 18th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
The Dalai Lama is a fraud. His government was barbaric and repressive. China did Tibet a favour in the ’50s by taking it over.
No, John Key should not meet with this tool, who still perpetuates barbarism.
Let’s focus our energies on increasing the freedoms of all Chinese, then if Tibetians want more autonomy they can decide for themselves.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
Repton (253) Vote: 0 0 Says:
November 18th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
This sort of thing should be an excellent example to us of why we need a larger, more diversified, economy and more capable armed forces.
That’s right! If only we had an air force, why, then we could tell the Red Army what for!
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No, fool. Please note that at no point did I mention an air strike arm for the airforce, Indeed I did not mention any specific capability or any service of the NZDF.
I guess my mistake here was attributing to all readers a degree of knowledge of affairs beyond the South Pacific, where the vast bulk of our income comes from, that you obviously lack.
If NZ has more capable armed forces (note that once again I did not mention a specific service or capability) it is a fact that China must take into into consideration and calculation when dealing with NZ, especially future calculations where force is an option in a given scenario.
I give to you as an example British naval war plans pre 1914 with respect to how to implement blockade of Germany given the widespread adoption of submarine launched torpedoes and the use of minefields and how these weapons had tactical and strategic implications on the battle of Jutland 1916.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
BlairM (648) Vote: 0 0 Says:
November 18th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
The Dalai Lama is a fraud. His government was barbaric and repressive. China did Tibet a favour in the ’50s by taking it over.”
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Given the nature of the Chinese government thats hardly a claim to fame, or simply the lesser of two evils? What you fail on here is the fact that Tibetans were never given he right to choose for themselves, and probably never will thanks to geography and the presence of India over the border. Did it occur to you that maybe they would have preferred Tibetan misrule over Chinese misrule? Not that we will ever know now.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
What is unfortunate is John Key’s flip flop. He has made so many. I don’t know who this guy is. It certainly isn’t the person I voted for. He has lied so much these last six months and being in the company of the Dalai Lama who makes a life mission to seek truth, that would be like mixing oil and water.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Well done john key.The Dalai Lama is a peadofile who looks for young boys to keep this cult/religon going.For centuries the LAMAS were just as bad as any dictator when they ruled tibet up until the 1960s…A man of peace now being in exile swanning around the world in his magic drape outfit….Anyone who believes they can talk to the fairies and elves has no right to meet the prime minister.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
bill hicks (76) Vote: 0 0 Says:
November 18th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Well done john key.The Dalai Lama is a peadofile who looks for young boys to keep this cult/religon going.For centuries the LAMAS were just as bad as any dictator when they ruled tibet up until the 1960s…A man of peace now being in exile swanning around the world in his magic drape outfit….Anyone who believes they can talk to the fairies and elves has no right to meet the prime minister.”
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You are missing the point here, its not about the nature of Tibetan monks its about NZ being bullied by China as to who we talk to to satisfy the interests of China’s domestic policies/repression.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:53 pm
Key may or may not have been influenced by the Chinese – does anyone know or is everyone just doing the usual presumptive jump to conclusions?
It’s possible Key has decided he has more important people to deal with.
And – what is the worst that can happen as a result of this decision?
November 18th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
“we are going to ignore Tibet because to do otherwise would run the risk of screwing over NZ. …this is how the world works, you look out for your own interests first and its not in our interests to look out for Tibet’s interests, mmmk?”
That needs to be amended to ’short-term interests”. It is not in New Zealand’s interests to see small countries being screwed over by larger ones and have everyone else look the other way and pretend it wasn’t happening. We used to understand that.
“Let’s focus our energies on increasing the freedoms of all Chinese, then if Tibetians want more autonomy they can decide for themselves”
By all means increase the freedoms of all ‘Chinese’, but why wait to find out if Tibetans want more autonomy? They’ve made that desire pretty bloody clear.
These guys are showing some films on Tibet next week http://www.tibetsolidarity.net.nz/
November 18th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
I agree with DPF
John Key missed an opportunity that doesn’t cost much but says a lot, it’s like allowing bullies to carry on at the UN without speaking out. Meeting the DL speaks out. He’s chasing free trade agreements and that’s what counts.
“The survival of liberty in our land increasingly depends on the success of liberty in other lands.
The best hope for peace in our world is the expansion of freedom in all of the world.”
George Bush III
November 18th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Sam Buchanan (171) Vote: 0 0 Says:
November 18th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
That needs to be amended to ’short-term interests”. It is not in New Zealand’s interests to see small countries being screwed over by larger ones and have everyone else look the other way and pretend it wasn’t happening. We used to understand that.”
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Good point.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
“Key may or may not have been influenced by the Chinese – does anyone know or is everyone just doing the usual presumptive jump to conclusions?”
Gee, he’s really going to come out and say “I’ve been pressured by the Chinese government, consequently I’ve decided to back down” isn’t he?
“And – what is the worst that can happen as a result of this decision?”
Just a small contribution to the Chinese government’s belief that they can repress, murder and imprison Tibetans, Uighers, dissidents, and whoever else, with impunity. It is a small contribution, but it’s a contribution none the less.
November 18th, 2009 at 6:11 pm
Totally disagree.
More a great show of intelligence and wisdom from John Key.
The Dalai Llama is a trouble making non-entity in the real world.
It would be more than a huge insult to China. And with the Free Trade Agreement just signed with Hong Kong to have such a meeting would be absolute stupidity.
New Zealand is a pimple on the ass end of the REAL WORLD.
You all complain about the economic crisis and yet you would risk the free trade agreements for a meeting with an extremist trouble making non-entity?
Grow up Kiwis! Get into the real world.
November 18th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
“It would be more than a huge insult to China.”
What’s wrong with insulting China? (the government I mean, not the people)
November 18th, 2009 at 6:41 pm
Tibet isn’t a country. Its a region of China. If some nutbag on Waiheke said he was the reintarnation of hillbillies who wanted to break Waiheke free from New Zealand it would be roughly equivalent of the Dalai Lama.
November 18th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Sigh. John Key flip-flopping again. Another reason I am not voting National next election.
November 18th, 2009 at 7:09 pm
Finally some common sense.
Well said.
November 18th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
The news is simply the rip on a naturally rippling tide.
“Folk with great knowledge see little using the mouth to express all perceived wisdom.”
November 18th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Crikey Mike, you sound like one of those naive idealistic anti-nukular mouse-that-roared just-cause-we-can-because-we’re-allowed-to kind of person, which I never thought you were.
Fact is, Stuart Mackey is right. International geopolitics is based on cold hard ruthless calculations, not ideals. Humanity, ethics and justice don’t enter into it, however much the slick politicians might try to tell you that that is what it’s all about. If you don’t understand that reality, then educate yourself. If you don’t think it’s right, then by all means try to change it, but recognise you’re dealing with implacable forces that will not hesitate to brush you aside like the gnat you are the minute you do something that sufficiently pisses them off. And it might not be public.
For example, after we went nuke-free, in the 1987 crash, we suffered longer and deeper than many other nations. Did it ever occur to those who were/are cheerleaders of that policy that it was an extremely simple matter for the CIA to greatly exacerbate both our exposure to and our recovery from that event. Not to mention of course all the intelligence we lost overnight and the spare part bill that went through the roof.
All I’m saying is that in geopolitics, there are consequences. It’s a chess game with real people. Us.
So you’d better know what you’re doing, before you DO agree to sit down with the Dalai Lama or the Taiwanese President or anyone else.
November 18th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
Bollocks, DPF!
Bollocks, bollocks, bollocks!
Where, simply put, is the net gain for John Key and NZ Inc in meeting the Dalai Lama – a person he has already met?
Is it “good” for New Zealand? Not demonstrably.
Are we going to reap a possible FTA with Tibet, Probably not, I would say. I would suspect the Dalai Lama is not on Tim Groser’s “people to sign an FTA with before I die” list either.
It’s like going to Copenhagen. “Why aren’t you going to the Copenhagen Conference, Mr Key?” “Theres no point”, he replies.
Same thing here.
[DPF: Freedom of more important than FTAs. We should not allow another country to dictate who we can meet. They can have a legitimate view on any actions we take, but not on who we meet]
November 18th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
imgaine Hu Jintao is not meeting Brian Tamaki …
get over Dalai Lama plz. there are some real issues taking generations to get improved in China, but Dalai… plz…
November 18th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
longbow (95) Vote: 0 0 Says:
November 18th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
imgaine Hu Jintao is not meeting Brian Tamaki …
get over Dalai Lama plz. there are some real issues taking generations to get improved in China, but Dalai… plz…”
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The point is, from an idealists POV, no one would care if he met Tamaki.
November 18th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
What next – cancel the tax cuts of $50/week…. Oh hang on a minute….
Key is doing a remarkable job of becoming Helen…. what the hell is going on with National ? Do they only want one term ?
November 18th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
“The reason simply is I’ve decided that I wouldn’t get a lot out of that particular meeting. I don’t see every religious leader that comes to town. I’ve seen him in the past, I may see him in the future.”
Fuckin A bro, if the DL wants to come here and meet people thats cool with me, we’re a free country, but if people here don’t want to meet with him then they shouldn’t have to either.
November 18th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
nostromo
And that would be fine for Key to not meet him if he hadn’t scored political points on the fact Helen was too scared to meet him because she didn’t want to upset her communist idols. Key… wtf are you smoking ?
November 18th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
[DPF: Freedom of more important than FTAs. We should not allow another country to dictate who we can meet. They can have a legitimate view on any actions we take, but not on who we meet]
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DPF, this is a meeting with the Dali Lama for tea and bikkies, not Hitler for the sale of Czechoslovakia. Its not that I don’t disagree with you per se, but China has more clout in APEC etc than we do at a time when we need to be involved in this yet to be finalized very large trading bloc. If we want to get at them over this sort of thing over meeting the Dali Lama, now is not the time to do it.
November 18th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
“Why aren’t you going to the Copenhagen Conference, Mr Key?” “Theres no point”
If there is no point, why is he cobbling together a faulted ETS so New Zealand is “first” in the world ?
Yet another sort of flip flop?
November 18th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
It genuinely disturbs me that senior political figures in NZ are too scared to meet the Dalai Lama in NZ. What happened to our nations sovereignty? When did we become puppets to Chinese diplomacy ?
November 18th, 2009 at 8:33 pm
Yvette
It would seem that the only answer to that questions is; Because although we have had a change of govt, we haven’t had a change of direction.
November 18th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
“why is he cobbling together a faulted ETS so New Zealand is “first” in the world ”
Er, he’s not, Yvette, but he has to make it look good to the global idiots who [claim to] believe fervently in AGW because we have a vital reputation to protect.
“When did we become puppets to Chinese diplomacy ?”
Since 1984 burt.
November 18th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Maybe JK doesn’t like the fact the Dalai Llama doesn’t wear proper clothes.
“Hey Bill, I gotta go out for a while..yeah to meet some unelected scmo who gets around in a freak suit..dudes always grinning like a maniac, and wants me to majorly piss of the biggest country in the world. Yeah its gonna be really fun – NOT”
November 18th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
“[DPF: Freedom of more important than FTAs. We should not allow another country to dictate who we can meet. They can have a legitimate view on any actions we take, but not on who we meet]”
As a practical matter China CANT dictate who “we” meet. But they can certainly make there be some consequences should “we” choose to.
Where is your outrage at the way we treat Taiwan?
November 18th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
This video raised my eyebrows, for sure, when I first saw it a few months ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsoc4-QnplY
I don’t have anytime for the DL; I’m just not into that stuff. But neither do I support what seems to be a pretty brutal oppression of Tibetans by China. I just wonder how much the West is to blame for China deciding to secure Tibet, once and for all. And I wonder if China is looking at the current demonisation of Iran and saying, quietly, been there, endured that.
I should also post a link if I can find it of an itunes audio item in which ex-CIA employees proudly proclaimed their, well, what we would now call support for regime change and Tibetan terrorists.
At the end of the day, its a bit like the US stealing half of Mexico: we know it was wrong but bad luck. The US is a superpower. Have another look in a 500 or so years if you are still holding a grudge.
Unlike Israel/Palestine where Israel is just not big enough to buck the world forever. Neither was South Africa.
KiwiGreg raises a good parallel in Taiwan. I guess it means Taiwan will return to mainland rule one day, but hopefully by the HK model, not the Tibet one.
November 18th, 2009 at 11:48 pm
Who knows, perhaps Key will bump into him in an Aussie airport while he is in transit.
November 18th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
JK met with the Dali Lama when he was opposition leader and now he won’t.
You know, I get this weird feeling that when one becomes PM there are barriers there that you daren’t cross even if you wanted to; I get the same vibe with the smacking law – there really isn’t any reason not to change it otherwise.
Maybe I’m talking crazy, but still…
November 19th, 2009 at 12:50 am
Typical progressive dribblings.
November 19th, 2009 at 7:12 am
“what the hell is going on with National ? Do they only want one term ?”
After a year in office Key has little to show for his meek efforts. He hasn’t done anything bold and I doubt ever will, because of his appeasing nature.
National has already broken election promises: no more taxes, further tax cuts, but it’s unlikely National is thrown out of office in 2011 given the disarray socialist Labour is in.
Key lost my vote a few months ago. He’s toast in my book.
November 19th, 2009 at 7:46 am
Maybe John Key sees working on the “environmental crisis” as more important than meeting the Dalai Lama.
November 19th, 2009 at 10:03 am
DPF, the FTA thing was just an example.
The point was that there is just no point in a meeting that signifies nothing.
JK has gone on record as saying that no pressure was brought to bear from China, and we have to believe him on that. Anything else would just be wild speculation and irresponsible to boot.
I would like to see an improvement in China’s human rights situation as much as the next man, but one meeting, JK’s response in the scheme of things means nothing.
I think JK is just focussed on his “core business” which, as CEO of NZ Inc, is the responsible and sensible thing to do given the current issues NZ has on it’s plate.
Would enjoy Paul Buchanen’s opinion on this just to get a geo-political and geo-strategic view on the issue (shit, that was a lot of geo’s!).
November 19th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
“JK has gone on record as saying that no pressure was brought to bear from China, and we have to believe him on that.”
Why?
November 19th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
So today we learn that John Key lied yesterday.
“The reason simply is I’ve decided that I wouldn’t get a lot out of that particular meeting. I don’t see every religious leader that comes to town”.
Today, NZPA reports:
Prime Minister John Key sought advice on the foreign policy consequences of meeting the Dalai Lama before deciding not to, Parliament was told today. …
“He did discuss the matter with me,” Mr McCully said.
“He sought some advice as to what other nations’ leaders were doing in similar situations and he also sought some advice as to foreign policy consequences that would follow from decisions he might make.” (NZPA)
That’s not surprising – it’s realpolitik. But why not cut the crap and say so? Instead, we get waffle yesterday and the truth today. Just makes it all look a lot worse.
November 19th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
You could be reading too much into that. He could easily have decided he wouldn’t get much out of it, then ran it by McCully which didn’t change his mind. He could be lying (nothing to prove it), or he could easily be telling the truth.
November 19th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Because it’s reasonable to believe what someone says unless you have some good reason not to. He hasn’t got a history of being found to be lying.
November 19th, 2009 at 11:35 pm
Is it a free trade agreement if it curtails our freedom?