The Tino Rangatiratanga flag
I said back in January 2009 when the decision was made, that I think allowing a Maori flag to fly on the Auckland Harbour Bridge on Waitangi Day was more than fine with me, noting that at various times all sorts of flags have flown there – even the EU flag I think.
On the day to commemorate an agreement between the Crown (now the Govt of NZ) and Maori, I think it is entirely appropriate to have a Maori flag fly one day a year.
I also think over time it will be seen as totally uncontroversial, and in fact will remove some of the divisiveness associated with the Tino Rangatiratanga flag.
But in the short term, I have no doubt there will be a backlash. Interestingly there was none when the decision in principle was made in January, but things have changed, and listening to talkback last night was a painful experience. A lot of the anger is at the PM personally. Mind you I don’t listen to talkback much, so this might be the normal state of affairs 
December 15th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Another noose to hang around Taito John keys neck . The TR flag is really the Maori party flag, what about the ACT party flag as well , or is that for Universal City
December 15th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
I think a lot of the criticism leveled at the PM is because he now calls it “the” maori flag. It seems fairly plain, at least to Kingi Taurua and others, that it is more akin to the Maori Party flag. Just a sop to Sharples and Turia.
He should follow your lead and call it “a” maori flag. Particularly as the flying of the flag is a huge coup for the Maori sovereignty movement who seek, at a minimum, an upper house with 50% Maori representation and a right of veto.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:06 pm
I always think of it as the Hone Harawira flag. I see him driving about West Auckland with half a dozen flags hanging out the windows of his panel van. Like it or not I can only think of an angry man when I see it.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Agree with you DPF. It is great sport watching some people (I expect many below) do their best to get outraged and huff-and-puff about something as inconsequential as this.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Maori Party flag seems about right, seems alot of decisions National are making can be justified by saying “oh but in the long term everyone will get over it”
December 15th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Yet another nail in the coffin for ShonKey and the Rollover party.
Looks like this is what you get when you prop up your government with the fringe party, and then gift them the balance of power.
Watch the popularity plummet when the impact from the ETScam start to bite into the average blokes weekly spend.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
I think it’s a good idea to have a maori flag it means we can start treating it the same way the NZ flag has been abused by maoris like Iti all these years.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Where can I get a shotgun in a hurry?
December 15th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
I wonder what would happen if I took the Maori flag, danced around it, and blasted it with a shotgun?
December 15th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
“I also think over time it will be seen as totally uncontroversial, and in fact will remove some of the divisiveness associated with the Tino Rangatiratanga flag.”
Uncontroversial? DPF, you keep surprising your readers every day, but this time even your attempt at spin is insufficient.
Neville Key has surrendered to the Maori Party. He has to strike a deal with the racists in order to pass the ETS and this is part of price the racists have exacted.
Who knows what else he will have to promise and give over the coming months, once the racists realise they have the spineless Key by the scruff of the neck (it was tempting to write balls instead, but that’s impossible in his case).
December 15th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Another nail in the coffin for National…keep and eye on the polls over the next 18 months… the latest TV3 poll is just the beginning of JK’s popularity spiralling downwards….
December 15th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Just had a great idea, why doesn’t someone market toilet paper with this flag on it, then we can wipe our butts on it, just like the poor disadvantaged mofos in the Maori Party have done with the NZ flag?
December 15th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
I have to agree with Starboard, for the first time ever I welcomed a rise in the polls for Labour, not because I like Labour but because I hope that any improvement in the polls for Goff might just jolt Key back to his senses.
I also found myself watching breakfast TV yesterday when Paul Henry interviewed Neville Key and having the same feeling of revolt that I used to have when Henry interviewed Clark.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Thin end of the wedge folks. Would be ironic if someone cut it down though don’t you think?
December 15th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Where is my pitch fork, where is my never ending sense of the coming apocalypse, where is my straw, feeling left out here, want to feel the ridiculous rage of your readers.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Jeff83 at 12.41 posted
Not as ridiculous as a short, fat, bare-arsed, tattooed, jigging, middle-age guy firing a shotgun into an NZ flag lying on the ground. And Tabloid Television NZ repeating the scene endlessly for months, even years.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
A storm in a teacup but will be grabbed by the left in a futile attempt to destabilize the Key Government. As Goff has demonstrated Labour will now, in the absence of new ideas, try to built support amongst the disaffected, the troughers who have lost their free lunch, and the rednecks. On this site the effort being made by the left to pull Key to the right and give Goff breathing space is highly entertaining. Political power in NZ lies in the centre, and the most important attribute required of a successful politician is the ability to count.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Yeah who cares it is just a flag.
I’d worry more about all the lazy moronic maoris who become rich by exploiting the treaty industry.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
You don’t really need to listen, you have your comments section.
December 15th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Read some in depth comment on this cowardly act here-
http://www.nzcpr.com/guest176.htm
December 15th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
“You don’t really need to listen, you have your comments section.”
Yep, complete with a bevy of the usual no argument sneering progressives who although they ceaselessly smear Kiwiblog in other parts of the blogosphere, can’t seem to stop themselves from reading or posting here.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
llew: beat me to it. My better half regularly tells our friends that blogs are just talkback on the internet, and that I’m turning into her father.
As for the flag, whether it be “the” maori flag, or “a” maori flag, who really gives a shit. If Key is so cunning that he’s done the equivalent of buying land for a handful of beads (buying policy concessions at the cost of flying a flag once a year on a bridge) then I’d say he’s done pretty well.
To be more explicit about it, one of the fundamentals of a market system, and of win-win negotiating, is giving up something you really didn’t care about but that the other negotiator really wants. So Key gave something that costs him nothing, to the Maori Party who really really wanted it. And at the end of that exchange, both parties are better off.
It’s like when I’m doing a contract negotiation, and the client says “we want to have all IP in the resulting product”, and I say “but my company wants to be able to sell a similar solution overseas.” And we agree that we’ll give an enduring license to use and enhance to the client, but we’ll retain the IP so that we can sell it to another client. They got everything they wanted, and we got everything we wanted, and we didn’t have to argue.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Some more in depth comment here-
Two flags, two peoples, a divided nation
New Zealand has a lot to be proud of but there are some aspects of life ‘down under’ that we would prefer not to mention. Near the top of that list is racism.
Racism is alive and well in New Zealand. That is, anti-white racism of the sort recently made public by a Member of Parliament.
In claiming that ‘Whities’ had been ripping off Maori for centuries, MP Hone Harawira exposed the underlying attitude that drives the Maori sovereignty movement – along with its beneficiaries the Treaty of Waitangi gravy train and indeed the Maori Party itself. This undercurrent of anti-white racism has existed for years but remains one of those truths that most are reluctant to admit and that few have the courage to address.
http://www.nzcpr.com/weekly210.htm
December 15th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Beads and blankets have obviously gone out of fashion.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:09 pm
Like it or not flags are important symbols loaded with all sorts of meaning.The PM can think what he wants but to allow that flag to fly from govt buildings on any day of the year is an affront to New Zealanders who cherish the current national flag and all that it represents and it is an affront to Maori who don’t identify with the Maori party flag.This also sets a precedent,the Crown can be a “partner” with whoever or whatever cause that’s in vogue at the time . This is the thin end of the wedge and one starts to wonder if the PM is able to make a stand on anything he actually believes in. I voted National last time around to get rid of Labour ,what alternatives are there? The political elites of all colours don’t care about the voters till election time and in the meantime it’s ” stuff you , we know best”.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
PaulL
100% correct. Thanks
December 15th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Great comment PaulL.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
On a day of history like Waitangi Day I would rather see the United Tribes ensign:
http://www.mch.govt.nz/nzflag/history/images/nz-ensign.jpg
But agree with DPF no real objection to the Rangatiratanga flag. I just can’t get excited about arguments of the form “the maoris this, the maoris that” which then talk about “anti-white racism” without any appreciation whatsoever of the irony…
December 15th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Well said llew, the comments here are generally on the same intellectual level as talkback radio, with comparable degrees of ignorance and bigotry.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
“Well said llew, the comments here are generally on the same intellectual level as talkback radio, with comparable degrees of ignorance and bigotry.”
Thanks for providing such an excellent example of it.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
And here we go.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
When this was first floated back in Feb I thought ‘Well it is okay Key will get a decent trade off from the Maori Party for it’
But now, we all realise he either got nothing at best or help in shafting the rest of us with the ETS.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
PaulL – excellent and sensible comment. In the big scheme of things, this “issue” is small beer indeed.
December 15th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
The particular flag in question is — to my mind at least — the equivalent of a pirate flag.
The flag is declaration of war on western civilisation. It is linked to racially-abusive emails. It treats Maori as victims of a “Holocaust” and whites as the perpetrators.
It has connotations of “We don’t accept the authority of Parliament, Police or the judiciary. That stems from… We do not accept ‘white’ people in positions of authority. We want to set up parallel institutions for justice, prisons, parliament. We don’t accept the name ‘New Zealand’. We won’t really be happy until the last whitey (and Asian, and African, and Indian, and…) has left Aotearoa. We might let a few honorary liberal fawning academics stay if they learn te Reo.”
A better solution than this “two flags” approach is to ask again if it is time to consider a single flag that better represents all New Zealanders. Eg the Hundertwasser flag.
Better to be one nation. (Get rid of all racial divisiveness, including seats in Parliament that are based on skin colour.)
December 15th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
“Thanks for providing such an excellent example of it.”
Well said Angus.
Just when you think you’ve seen it all in terms of stupidity, another progressive turns up and sets a new benchmark.
December 15th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
“In the big scheme of things, this “issue” is small beer indeed.”
Well we won’t be hearing any more on the issue from you, will we?
December 15th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Well said Major (or should that be ColonelBloodnok). The flag is another step on the road to apartheid.
December 15th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Redbaiter, whereas in 5 years time you’ll still be banging on about Hone’s racist email.
December 15th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Sad to see that separatism and apartheid have so many fans.
Mostly pain in the arse gullible navel gazing white liberals fed a diet of guilt by a corrupt and politically partisan mainstream media, who cannot argue their point but instead resort to feeble sneers against those who do not buy into their crippled and destructive world view.
A divided country is what they lust for. Key will pay dearly for this ignorant and cowardly act. He needs to reject the Helen Klark arrogant approach, stop sucking up to brain damaged liberals, progressives and academics, and reach out to real NZers. Too late now tho I think. This stand for nothing political novice has to go. Is there nobody in National with a brain or a spine?
December 15th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
“Sad to see that separatism and apartheid have so many fans.”
Yes. This is how ingratiating PC liberals demonstrate their racial virtue. This is how they soothe their guilt ridden souls over NZ’s post-colonial history. This is how they get to say “I’m a good guy, I’m not a bigot” This is why they let Hone Harawira spew whatever he likes but are reluctant to call him out on it.
December 15th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
A flag is a very real reflection of a country’s image of itself as a nation.
Which is precisely why the Maori party must be feeling pretty pleased with themselves right now, and why for many other New Zealander’s they may be feeling as though the very sovereignty of our country has been ripped in half (or thirds if you are looking at the “alternative New Zealand flag design” I have now published on my blog).
If we are partnership with one another why was there no discussion with pakeha regarding the flying of two flags on our National day?
December 15th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
I thought that was what you lusted after Red, you’ve mentioned it often enough, you should be happy.
But why would it divide the country? It’s just a flag. Much ado about bugger all isn’t it?. Maybe that was the plan.
December 15th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
Indeed Pete – if the country was united, Redbaiter would have less to whinge about.
December 15th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
“for many other New Zealander’s they may be feeling as though the very sovereignty of our country has been ripped in half”
While many other New Zealanders may be feeling as though there is an interesting flag on top of Auckland’s ugly harbour bridge for a few hours. Whoop-de-doo.
I’m sure I’ve seen All Blacks flags and numerous other logos of organizations that I didn’t sign up for, on the harbour bridge over the years. I guess I just don’t hold the Auckland harbour bridge (or ANY flags displayed thereupon) in very high esteem as symbols of princely authority over myself?
December 15th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Maybe we should fly more flags together (not that that is particularly original, happens frequently). And eventually find a flag in common that represents New Zealand as an individual country that doesn’t look like a tryhard version of our neighbour’s. We could have one we can be proud of. Yeah, right, no chance of that, let’s just let ‘em all fly.
December 15th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
The question is which flag is right for ‘Maori.’
There is the 1835 Independence Flag to consider too.
As I have blogged over at the Fairfacts Media Show, key is barking up the wrong flagpole!
December 15th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
To me the significance of this has less to do with the Maori separatist movement having some flag waving rights, and more to do this Key being prepared to hang our sovereignty baby over the alligator pit in order to shore up support for his continued rule.
December 15th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
@Fairfacts Media: The question is which flag is right for ‘Maori.’
I disagree (though I do see your point).
I contend that the question is which ONE FLAG is right for all New Zealanders. I don’t want two flags.
December 15th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
big bruv 12:17 pm,
You’d be in the pot, mate.
December 15th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
democracymum 2:43 pm,
Because if you’re white, middle class, and pay your taxes, even if you are the majority, you are considered anti progress (or is that anti progressive?) and your voice counts for nothing. The government knew what most Kiwis would say on this topic, and so we were never asked – simple as that.
December 15th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
It’s just a flag,small beer etc these types of comments sum up the attitude that so many in the west and on the left display these days.Traditional symbols and values are so old fashioned and bourgeois.Only the indigenous ,marginalised or oppressed has any authenticity or relevance .To deny this means you are a redneck,anti intellectual,racist,war mongering global climate change denier who does not own a flax shopping bag.never attended a farmers market or fair trade shop ,doesn’t give a shit about whales ,battery hens or pigs and now battery cows and probably worst of all thinks his carbon footprint is something left behind after a visit to the coal shed.
December 15th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
Bottom line:
The progressives do not want unity; they are anti democracy; are anti middle class & white (read that the majority of voters/populace); are anti absolute moral standards; and are racist.
To bring about their objectives they must undermine and do away with ALL that our society has been founded upon. The acceptance of this Maori flag is to foster disunity and racism, and the further disinfranchisement of the middle class white majority. The Maori flag is much more than just a ‘flag’, the symblosim behind the flag is what we need to concern ourselves with.
Wake up people!
December 15th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Redbaiter – may I suggest you go and take your snivelling socialist lapdog out for a walk and get some fresh air.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
@Kris K: Because if you’re white, middle class, and pay your taxes, even if you are the majority, you are considered anti progress (or is that anti progressive?) and your voice counts for nothing. The government knew what most Kiwis would say on this topic, and so we were never asked – simple as that.
You mean, just like the ETS, the anti-smacking bill, the other tax-cuts that were promised, and the decision to keep Working For Families, interest-free student loans and all the other unaffordable Labour election promises…?
Where is the govt that you really need in a financial downturn?
* The one that recognises that borrowing $250 million a week is absolutely foolish.
* The one that having paid for a high-quality review of how to catch up with Australia, has the fortitude to say, “let’s do it” and gets on with the job, despite the short-term pain.
* The one that can see through the con-job that is the UN view of global warming, and puts NZ’s economic recovery ahead of a global tax disguised as environmental indulgences.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Kris K with that sort of alarmism, you should be in Copenhagen co-presenting with Al Gore.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:22 pm
Its hardly a surprise there was was no backlash in January, it is the holidays.
December 15th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
“A lot of the anger is at the PM personally. Mind you I don’t listen to talkback much, so this might be the normal state of affairs
”
Sounds like normal service. Imagine Redbaiter and Murray discussing drugs & unemployment benefits with Philu in the public bar of the Otahuhu Workingmens’ club and you’re not even close.
I tried to drive out of Auckland Easter of 2006, the year a fatal accident blocked the southern from Drury all the way back to the city. Got on the wireless to try to see if there was a traffic report on why we weren’t moving, and the first thing I heard was a radio host telling angry caller “…Dave, that’s because THIS GOVERNMENT WANTS YOUR BUSINESS TO FAIL…”
December 15th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
queenstfarmer 4:12 pm,
I doubt my opinions would be wanted or accepted.
Of course, the liar Al Gore is already on the team, and would be perfectly at home with all the other liars, thieves, and charlatans.
December 15th, 2009 at 5:07 pm
Interesting discussion, I’d prefer one flag for all NZ, but in no form would it have a Union Jack on it, I’m a bit of a fan of the Silver Fern personally.
It is fascinating how so many people get so upset about a flag, at a time when our economy is so fragile & govt spending requires so much work to be reduced, you’ve got to wonder about the priorities to be worrying about something so insignificant as this.
As an aside, it’s very worthwhile I believe letting Maori have the opportunity to display & discuss what flag they want to represent their history & culture, given the significant period of time they were the primary inhabitants of NZ & their place in the Treaty of Waitangi they deserve that right.
December 15th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Tino rangatiratanga means absolute sovereignty or maori independence……….John key you are a fool and a idiot
December 15th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Can anyone tell me the exact time that the sky will fall with this thing, wooop deeeedooooooo !!!!
When Maori was made an (the ?) official language of New Zealand, when Mt Egmont was made Mt Taranaki, when Mt Cook reverted to Mt Whatchamacallit
What really happened ?
Nothing.
Fuck all.
Sweet Fanny Adams.
Is this really an issue ?
BTW Scotland has three official flags
December 15th, 2009 at 7:28 pm
As bill hicks points out (5:31pm), Tino rangatiratanga means absolute sovereignty – something ceded to the crown in the second article of the Treaty of Waitangi. Displaying this flag is thus a breach of the Treaty. I find it ironic that Key is inviting Maori to thus flout the so called Founding Document Of Our Nation at the same time the rest of us are forking out compensation for previous breaches made by the crown. Either the flag should be banned, or the compensation should stop.
December 15th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
‘Their’ flag becomes ‘our’ flag – normal, accepted. OK, so what flag do they use the next time they want to demonstrate against something and express division and difference?
December 15th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
That’s a good point Yvette, it “normalises” the flag so it loses it’s protest value. I don’t see any problem with that.
December 15th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
” I don’t see any problem with that. ”
So what? Nobody expects you to see any problem with any action that adds to social and political division in NZ and thereby makes your Marxist goals that much easier to achieve. Be a bit less insufferable tho if you ceased the pretence to be a centre left epitome of reason and were upfront about the fact that you’re really just a stinking commie subversive.
December 15th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
so i take it we need to hide away the white women and children as a result of this ?
Humans taste like chicken allegedly
December 15th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
” 28% for, 72% against in Stuff poll. ”
As usual, elitist academics and pain in the arse Progressives trying to tell real NZers what is best for them.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/lightbox//3161149?KeepThis=true&
December 15th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Why don’t you abuse Yvette the same Red? I was just agreeing with her.
Anyway, have you got the balls? Or are you all talk and no honesty?
December 15th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
I thought the United Cheifs flag would be more appropriate for Waitangi Day. I am surprised to see Shane Jones is leading the charge against this, have we found the next Winston Peters?
December 15th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
” Why don’t you abuse Yvette the same Red? ”
1) Its not abuse.
2) Don’t you get it? There is no deceit with Yvette. Whether I agree with her or disagree, it doesn’t bother me because she is not pretending to be anything other than what she is.
3) She is not a political agent like you are. She’s just a commenter.
December 15th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
I see now that Shane Jones and Goff have spoken out against it, Rodney silent.
December 15th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Rodney has been silent about too many things these days.
December 15th, 2009 at 8:46 pm
“Humans taste like chicken allegedly ”
That’s pork you fool not chicken. Maoris called it long pig.
Have you never eaten a fat woman??
December 15th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
“Rodney has been silent about too many things these days.”
Damn right Red, I want Rodney to get the flick once he has sorted out Auckland, I hope the fine people of Epsom have the brains to encourage Don Brash to stand in their electorate.
Imagine Brash leading the ACT party, they would have at least ten seats in the house and be in a position to really force Neville’s hand.
December 15th, 2009 at 11:50 pm
National only became politically relevant because Don Brash gave a good speech at Orewa. To now be in Power and to have J Key do this with the flag pisses me off.
Im thinking more and more of voting for Act
December 16th, 2009 at 2:11 am
The best thing about apartheid is the oppressed majority always win through in the end. Now who will be our Nelson Mandela? I reccommend Mike Laws.
December 16th, 2009 at 6:26 am
I’m surprised Mr. Key didn’t dictate what flag should represent Maori, or did he?
December 16th, 2009 at 7:02 am
A flag is a symbol for unity, for a single country. Therefore a country can have only one flag. If the NZ flag can no longer represent the Maori, we are a divided nation, and a divided nation will fall.
December 16th, 2009 at 7:15 am
Flags are symbols of many things. There is no reason why a country cannot have as many flags as it likes.
Our current flag is a combination of things. The Union Jack is itself a combination of three flags. And the whole flag is so similar to Australia’s we have no unique national identity. I find it difficult to identify with it, it doesn’t have a lot of meaning to me. So it is similar for me to the Tino Rangatiratanga flag, some people like to fly them as representative of something important to them, but not to me.
December 16th, 2009 at 8:13 am
I pity you Pete, that you have no attachment to, or love and reverence of any particular flag.
December 16th, 2009 at 8:32 am
Johnboy
Define fat, and I’ll tell you if I have
December 16th, 2009 at 8:44 am
There is nothing to pity for Leonidas – I do identify a lot more with with the black with silver fern, and the kiwi symbol, but there are too many people too averse to change from our fluttering international confusion that I don’t think we will be creating our own national identity any time soon.
December 16th, 2009 at 9:33 am
Adverse to change?
I’m sorry Pete but i will have to disagree with you, not to sure if it is my personal bias but i find people are quite open to change so long as they control their own destiny.
December 16th, 2009 at 9:35 am
Surely the Tino Rangatiratanga flag is a symbol of sovereignty? Presumably there are people within the Maori movement who would like their own country? Or in their terms want the country back and want the Pakeha to leave.
What good can come of this? Do we want the nation divided into two countries?
December 16th, 2009 at 9:55 am
January 11th 2010
Meeting between John Key and Pita Sharples….
PS: “John, I want the Government to legislate so that every white mother****er has to engage in bestiality and pay for every oppressed Mordi to have a round the World trip”
JK: “ummmm, gosh Pita that – ”
PS: “John, if you don’t do it I will scream like a wounded bull at how racist the National party honky’s are”
JK: “Oh Pita, don’t do that; okay I will pass the law ASAP making it compulsory for White people to engage in bestiality and pay for Maoris to have overseas holidays; and I will get my pratboy Farrar to give an enthusiastic endorsement of it on his blog”
PS: “cheers bro”
[moral of the story - 1. Grow some balls 2. Ask the question "where will it end?" ]
http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com
December 16th, 2009 at 9:56 am
Isn’t the Union Jack a symbol of sovereignty too? With quite a big divide, like a half world divide.
St George’s cross has links to the crusades and slaying of dragons.
St Andrew is said to have been martyred on such a cross (as on the Scottish flag).
St Patrick’s Cross is controversial and is not even universally accepted in Ireland.
At least the Southern Cross doesn’t have religious connections, but one out of four ain’t good.
Welsh heritage is not represented – this doesn’t bother me because I don’t feel any Welshness, it is just an historical curiosity.
The republic of Ireland is also not represented, nor are the many other countries that have provided immigrants to NZ.
What if the English decide they want “their” country back?
December 16th, 2009 at 10:36 am
“Sounds like normal service. Imagine Redbaiter and Murray discussing drugs & unemployment benefits with Philu in the public bar of the Otahuhu Workingmens’ club and you’re not even close.”
Brilliant, LOL!
December 16th, 2009 at 10:59 am
The issue that a number of New Zealander’s feel is important in this affair is the fact that the government has decided to endorse the flag of an unrecognized, illegitimate sovereignty and in doing so has granted its permission to fly on the Auckland Harbor bridge and other government buildings.
Its a bit like the British government flying the Scottish Independence flag on the Bucking ham’s palace and on other British government buildings – imagine the outcry across Britain if this was endorsed?
The sovereignty of New Zealand is in affiliation with Great Britain as a colony and clearly flying an illegitimate flag on our government buildings will send the wrong message to Britain and possibly cause offense – especially now that the Prince has announced an upcoming royal visit…
Is this the kind of message we want to convey to his excellency?
- That even though New Zealand is not an independent republic we see no harm in endorsing an unrecognized sovereignty on our government buildings? Maori might be the natives of this land but are they the owners of our sovereignty as declared in treaty?
You see the treaty can work both ways and I do not recall a clause in the treaty accepting “partial sovereignty to all Maori” – or in this case 80percent.
This may be “just a flag” for some people but for others it is a step in the wrong direction for this nation of diversity and it is in defiance of the Treaty and of the True Sovereignty of New Zealand.
Shame on the government!
December 16th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
The Herald version of what the Tino Rangatiratanga flag is about:
Linda Munn, the last surviving member of the trio who designed the flag recalled last month, it was meant to be about Maori empowerment, “not walking around with a big chip on your shoulder”.
The red and black banner with its white koru represented renewal and hope. Its co-opting by separatists was relatively shortlived.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10615773&pnum=0
December 16th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Thank you for a good post Fale. You hit the nail right on the head.
Pete George — I could not disagree more. But look in your world everything is okay, there is no need to worry, Maori separatists are relatively short lived and there is no threat at all that one day this could become a movement to divide New Zealand into 2 countries.
December 16th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Will we see Maori athletes and sports teams wanting to fly the Maori flag at overseas events? If so, then who are they representing? New Zealand or just one section of it?
December 16th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
“I’m surprised Mr. Key didn’t dictate what flag should represent Maori, or did he?”
Mr. Key does not do anything at all. In every case, he is told what to do by his ministers and minders, including the Maori Party, since his fabled decision powers have deserted him completely.
By the way, Neville Key will disappear soon on his way to the “Earth-saving” meeting in Copenhagen. He’s a bloody hardworker.
December 16th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Scott, are you disagreeing with what the Herald said? I was passing on what they said, I don’t know much about it, I had wondered whether there must have been a 666 symbol on the flag or something, and just thought that editorial was interesting compared to the some of the comments here, and it actually seemed to consider some facts.
How do you know anything about how things are in my world? For all you know I could be in a Mainlanders Advocating Division group.
December 16th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
I was about to say how surprised I was at your take on the topic DPF, but then remembered your previous Green-party-inspired comments on Islamic matters…
The fact is, this flag represents one race of people, not all New Zealanders. Just like the Maori party – named after a race of people, that represents them only. I thought Key was better than this. First he dismisses the views of most of NZ on smacking laws, and now he does this. All he is doing is giving them further incentive to perpetuate the grievance industry, which is a shame. We should expect better.
December 17th, 2009 at 7:47 am
“but there are too many people too averse to change from our fluttering international confusion that I don’t think we will be creating our own national identity any time soon. ”
Does it then follow, the New Zealanders of all extractions lying in Passchendaele and Gallipoli mean so little to you?
I’m pretty sure those fine men created our National Identity. And The Flag you appear to have so little respect for was brought by the blood of those men, regardless of weather or not one thinks we should have been there those men will never come home and to throw away The Flag they died for is a massive affront to their memory.
December 17th, 2009 at 8:32 am
No, it doesn’t follow.
My maternal grandfather was shot in the chest in France.
My paternal grandfather:
The 3rd Company were no less assiduous in their efforts, nor less steadfast in maintaining a high standard of efficiency and cool bearing. 2nd-Lieutenant E. W. George was particularly prominent in the operations at Pont a Pierres and won the Military Cross.
An uncle died in Italy in 1945, another uncle was traumatised serving in the navy age 16, my father served in Italy and was in J-Force.
I doubt any of them thought “what a cool flag, I’ll go and risk my blood for that”.
December 17th, 2009 at 9:48 am
What a shame the have spawned such treacherous offspring. A sly twisting deceiver who works assiduously to destroy everything they fought for.
December 17th, 2009 at 10:06 am
It is you that wants to destroy Redhater, you propose revolution, you propose throwing out all our democratically elected representatives, you propose hanging anyone you disagree with from lamp posts, you are on record as being against what they fought for.
You are the one who works assiduously to destroy what they fought for, as an undercover coward.
December 17th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Brave men indeed.
If only they’d had the internet. They could have the fought the war by anonymous abuse. Brave indeed.
December 17th, 2009 at 10:54 am
I merely want to disassemble the totalitarian socialist political construct that you Pete and other brain damaged Progressives have built (over the last few decades) throughout the western world and in NZ in particular.
December 17th, 2009 at 11:12 am
The disassembly of your cyber brain is showing.
December 28th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
A flag seems like a petty, superficial thing to me, which is probably why the Maori Party like them so much.
I see the Maori Party as a Cargo Cult, an attempt to get all the white-mans stuff while making the white man go away (or today, all non-Maori go away, or become subordinate).
I don’t think they are really interested in Maori Culture in any serious sense of the word, language for instance is superficial, (which language is used makes no difference at all to how a civilisation is run, any language can express anything any other language can express), conspicuous, usually aggressive, rituals and tatoos for instance are also utterly superficial compared to technology, exhange systems and introduced food or medicine compared with pre-Eurpean equivalents.
I see the Maori Party and their flag as attempts to get as much of the fruits of hard-working New Zealanders as possible with as little effort as possible, no surprise they’re getting along with a PM with a history in the stock-exchange, I suspect with that background he wants do do exactly the same but is a hell of a lot more stealthy about it (I don’t know, it just seems likely).
I don’t feel I’m insulting Maori race or culture, I think the Maori Party are by using it as a con for greedy and lazy ends.
December 30th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
That previous post was probably unconstructively undiplomatic, I’ve had time to think rather than emote
One thing that occured to me about the flag on the bridge is that it seems to show a great concern with status. Early Maori culture was very status oriented, I remember from anthropology that body-adornment, such as tatoos, were all about status and status hierarchy, as I recall status in Maori society was fixed based on birthright, exept for status earned in warfare.
Perhaps this is why some Maori sometimes say they were better off before “colonialism”. To most non-Maori this seems bizarre, all the food, medicine, technology, all that invalable knowledge from around the world.
But there is one respect in which they have not clearly benefited, status. Maori culture is given huge respect, from the state and perhaps even a majority of non-Maori most of the time, but almost all statisitics in crime, education, wealth send a different message, they appear to fair unfavorably in all these hierachies, they are no longer unquestionably number one, especially those from the upper casts have arguably lost their place.
The other problem is most non-Maori are fairly egalitarian when it comes to status, disliking overt, proud, displays of status, even for wealth earned from hard work or great contribution to society.
If this is part of the issue I don’t have an answer although a little tolerance, recgnition and acceptance of differences and patience on both sides would probably be a good start.