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January 24, 2010 11:00am by David Farrar

Media and Polls

This should be displayed in every newsroom.

Hat Tip: The Standard

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Media
Polls

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Trusting polls
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Comments (41)

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Guy Fawkes

Not sure that it wouldn’t go over their heads. Newspapers really do suffer from an ability to recruit and retain bright young things.

Newsrooms populated by ageing old hacks, who are way too cynical, and want an easy ride.
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January 24, 2010 11:23am
Graeme Edgeler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth
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January 24, 2010 11:28am
Redbaiter

How about just not asking leading questions, or questions based on partisan political premises?

Its pretty common knowledge that people are more likely to answer yes to a question than no. I believe pollsters (or more likely the people commissioning them) frequently use this knowledge to drive poll results in the direction they want, either for political gain or to try and make the polls newsworthy.

IMHO, polling as an industry is rife with political biases.

Here’s an example of two questions that provide an entirely different perspective on the same issue-

Question 1- Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States, yes of no?

Question 2- The US Constitution demands that all Presidents be Natural Born US citizens- Should Presidential candidates be required to make public legal documentation that proves beyond doubt they were born in the US, yes or no?

The first question is a glib attempt to arrive at a conclusion that assists the polsters clear ambition to gloss over the issue and reduce it to a non issue. The second question is clearly an attempt to get a more substantive response.

For years we have been getting polls (in the mainstream media) designed to drive public opinion in whatever direction the Progressives want it driven. The list of facile questions that are designed primarily to underpin left wing political myths is never ending.

Is global warming happening?

Were Maoris the first to arrive in NZ?

Does poverty justify theft?

Should the rich pay more tax?

On and on and on, with the predilection of the public to answer “yes” always taken full advantage of. To the extent that polls today have virtually no credibility. Why? Do all pollsters (a) lack integrity or (b) are they just truly unaware of what they’re doing.

(Knowing our hosts expertise in this area I have been expecting a bit of opinion from him on this issue. Maybe its still in the writing.)
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January 24, 2010 11:32am
Guy Fawkes

I was always led to believe that 1000 was the very MINIMUM poll sample size that should ever be taken. Note how many are only just over this de minimus number, and more scarily how many are below that number but the numbers are hidden in the small print.

Then taking Redbaiter’s point, there is no weighting placed on the question format, time of response, place of sample etc. etc.

In a nutshell, far too many are flash indicators of as much significance and accuracy as the Heralds 3 day weather forecast over Lake Taupo.
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January 24, 2010 11:50am
tristanb

Regarding Point 2 of the cartoon, it seems that many who comment at this blog think that public opinion polls should become binding law – you are being hypocritical if you call the media stupid.
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January 24, 2010 12:02pm
Yvette

This I think misses one point: one question should be asked, in each poll, to give some indication of the intelligence of those being polled in relation to the matter discussed. I remember a whole poll on electoral issues was held several years ago that, at the time, indicated that any other polls taken then were an utter waste of space.
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January 24, 2010 12:04pm
Redbaiter

“This I think misses one point: one question should be asked, in each poll, to give some indication of the intelligence of those being polled in relation to the matter discussed. ”

In NZ, due to the generally apolitical culture, it is likely the pollsters would have to ring 10 times as many people before they found one who could meet the qualification.

Winston Churchill said something along the lines of his belief in democracy being put deeply in doubt after any five minute conversation with the average voter.
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January 24, 2010 12:24pm
Ferdinand

On the topic of polling, Mathew Hooton has accused you of getting rich off taxpayer-funded national party polling contracts DPF. Is this true or is Hooton just shit-stirring again?
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January 24, 2010 12:41pm
Dirty Rat

Redbaiter is correct

Great example was while I was in the Bay of Plenty and the outrageous Heterosexual Tony Ryall was send out questionairres such as

1. “Do you believe that New Zaland should be offering a world class health system ?”

well duh !!!
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January 24, 2010 12:48pm
big bruv

“Winston Churchill said something along the lines of his belief in democracy being put deeply in doubt after any five minute conversation with the average voter.”

He was thinking of people like you when he said that.
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January 24, 2010 12:58pm
Sean

That and a sign that says “Just because this photo might sell newspapers doesn’t make it right”.
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January 24, 2010 1:10pm
David in Chch

Ah, one of my favourite links! phdcomics.com lampoons modern academia nicely. And I like xkcd too (xkcd.com). Two literate and intelligent comics both drawn by people who know and understand well enough to lampoon their subjects well.
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January 24, 2010 1:22pm
malcolm

Question 1- Do you believe Barack Obama was born in the United States, yes of no?

The old “…yes of no?” trick. Redbaiter is right of course, although I would say that internal political polling is more disciplined as they actually want decent info.

Another problem is that people tend to give answers which make themselves look better/kinder/more clever etc. E.g. “Sir, how many charities have you given money to in the last 12 months?”

Personally when I’ve done paper or in-person surveys I get bored after the first few questions and just give the easiest answer to get it over with. I once got a very nice Economist pen when a pretty young lady stopped me in the street with that timeless chat-up line “Sir, do you read the Economist?”.
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January 24, 2010 1:39pm
Chthoniid

Good cartoon, but as a minor point, the Galileo thing was about geocentrism versus heliocentrism. It wasn’t about whether the earth was flat*.

Geocentrism holds the earth is stationary and all other celestial bodies move around it. That’s what the bible said and why Galileo (& Giordano Bruno) were charged with heresy.

Heliocentrism says the earth (like other planets) move around the sun.

(* Noting that some people still assert the world is flat for religious reasons).
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January 24, 2010 2:51pm
Kris K

Redbaiter 12:24 pm,

Winston Churchill said something along the lines of his belief in democracy being put deeply in doubt after any five minute conversation with the average voter.

Indeed.
And the aim of socialists/progressives is to dumb down the populace, get them to rely on welfare/handouts, and to discourage them from questioning their political masters (and yes, they do become slaves) – that they might ensure their re-election.

The last Labour government is an example of this – how they got in for a further 2nd and 3rd terms is still beyond my comprehension.
And will anyone really be surprised if somehow Obama gets in for a second term?
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January 24, 2010 3:43pm
Pete George

And the aim of socialists/progressives is to dumb down the populace

How do they do that? I think much of the populace manages to do that on their own ok.

Where would we be without the right wing intellectuals?
The ones who seem to believe in a dumb down and rule conspiracy.
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January 24, 2010 3:47pm
Kris K

Pete George 3:47 pm,

And the aim of socialists/progressives is to dumb down the populace

How do they do that? I think much of the populace manages to do that on their own ok.

Have you had a look at the education system recently, Pete?
The rot starts there, but isn’t limited to that part of society.

Truth – thinking individuals – strong morality – are ALL the enemy of dictatorships/socialist government/Islam, et al.

Get them young, and you’ve got them for life:

Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
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January 24, 2010 4:01pm
Pete George

Is there any evidence that “the populace” is dumbing down, and if so is there any evidence that the education system is deliberately dumbing down “the populace?
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January 24, 2010 6:23pm
Redbaiter

EXAMINATION GRADUATION QUESTIONS OF SALINE COUNTY, KANSAS
April 13, 1895
Eighth Grade Final Exam
J.W. Armstrong, County Superintendent.

Examinations at Salina, New Cambria, Gypsum City, Assaria, Falun, Bavaria, and District No. 74 (in Glendale Twp.)

Reading and Penmanship. – The Examination will be oral, and the Penmanship of Applicants will be graded from the manuscripts

Grammar (Time, one hour)

1. Give nine rules for the use of Capital Letters.
2. Name the Parts of Speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define Verse, Stanza and Paragraph.
4. What are the Principal Parts of a verb? Give Principal Parts of do, lie, lay and run.
5. Define Case, Illustrate each Case.
6. What is Punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of Punctuation.
7-10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.

Arithmetic (Time, 1.25 hours)

1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50 cts. per bu, deducting 1050 lbs. for tare?
4. District No. 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
5. Find cost of 6720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $.20 per inch?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance around which is 640 rods?
10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt.

U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)

1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided.
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus.
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States.
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas.
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, and 1865?

Orthography (Time, one hour)

1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic orthography, etymology, syllabication?
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals?
4. Give four substitutes for caret ‘u’.
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final ‘e’. Name two exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: Bi, dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, super.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: Card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences, Cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.

Geography (Time, one hour)

1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of N.A.
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco.
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S.
7. Name all the republics of Europe and give capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give inclination of the earth.

Health (Time, 45 minutes)

1. Where are the saliva, gastric juice, and bile secreted? What is the use of each in digestion?
2. How does nutrition reach the circulation?
3. What is the function of the liver? Of the kidneys?
4. How would you stop the flow of blood from an artery in the case of laceration?
5. Give some general directions that you think would be beneficial to preserve the human body in a state of health.
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January 24, 2010 6:40pm
Redbaiter

Elementary 5th Grade Students 2009: Behaving Positively at School.

— “Working for peace in the global village”

— “Acknowledging prejudices and striving to overcome them”

— “Displaying the courage to be imperfect”

— “Practicing diligence”

— “Striving to change long standing habits and replace them with open, searching minds”

— ” Providing “opportunities that enable them to be fair to themselves and others” ”

— “Struggling with unsettled questions to gain understanding or insight”

— “Recognizing the interdependence among peoples”

— “Seeking social justice”
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January 24, 2010 6:53pm
Redbaiter

Quote-

The curriculum in state schools in England has been stripped of its content and corrupted by political interference, according to a damning report by an influential, independent think-tank.

It warns of the educational apartheid opening up between the experience of pupils in the state sector and those at independent schools, which have refused to reduce academic content to make way for fashionable causes.

“The traditional subject areas have been hijacked to promote fashionable causes such as gender awareness, the environment and anti-racism, while teachers are expected to help to achieve the Government’s social goals instead of imparting a body of academic knowledge to their students,” it says.

Civitas casts doubt on the value of much of what children are now “taught”. History has become so divorced from facts and chronology that pupils might learn the new “skills and perspectives” through a work of fiction, such as Lord of the Rings, it says.

Teenagers studying for GCSEs are being asked to write about the September 11 atrocities using Arab media reports and speeches from Osama bin Laden as sources without balancing material from America, it reveals.

In English, the drive for gender and race equality has led an exam board to produce a list of modern poems from around the world without a single poet from England or Wales being represented.

The new 21st-century science curriculum introduced last September substitutes debates on abortion, genetic engineering and the use of nuclear power for lab work and scientific inquiry, it says.

Designed to make science more popular, the results of a study show it has had the opposite effect, with pupils less interested in the subject and less keen to pursue it in the sixth form than they were under the previous, more fact-based lessons.

Future scientists will be even more likely to come from independent schools because the new GCSE courses will leave state pupils ill-quipped for further study, it says.

Most comprehensive schools are teaching the new science for examination next year but the vast majority of independent and grammar schools have seized the opportunity to continue to teach biology, chemistry and physics as separate subjects.

Martin Stephen, the High Master of St Paul’s, a leading boys’ independent school in London, warned of the “terrifying absence of proper science” in the new courses and said his pupils would be taking the International GCSE in the three separate sciences.

Unquote (abridged)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1554162/Political-meddling-ruining-learning-in-schools.html
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January 24, 2010 7:01pm
Pete George

Post 1, Kansas 1895.

Post 2, location unknown (not NZ), proportion of curriculum unknown, aims seem worth discussing at school

Post 3 “The curriculum in state schools in England has been stripped of its content and corrupted by political interference, according to a damning report by an influential, independent think-tank.”

The Department for Education defended the curriculum changes and accused the Civitas report of being “based on a profound misunderstanding of the national curriculum and modern teaching methods”.

It is insulting to the hard work of pupils and teachers to claim that the education system is just a political football to promote political or social goals,” said a spokesman.

Nothing says there is any deliberate conspiracy to dumb down the populace (although it’s easy to argue about the merits of the aims).

Nothing on NZ.
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January 24, 2010 7:28pm
Pete George

Interesting posts but disputable.

Corruption of the Curriculum (Civitas report)

Review 1: This book is especially interesting because it is published by Civitas, a London think-tank which is normally considered somewhat right-of-centre.

Review 2: My 9 year old daughter is very familiar with the marriage rituals of (non-Christian)religions but when I asked her if she knew what the book of Genesis was, she had no idea

Review 3: Sadly, this book will do little to change anybody’s opinion. ‘Traditionalists’ will read to have their prejudices confirmed, ‘Progressives’ will study to ‘know their enemy’. Parents and teachers will sit back and despair at the intellectual poverty of the argument.
Furedi is a fine academic and writer, despite his slightly unsettling appetite for publicity, but he cheapens his reputation by allowing his work in print here; the rest of the book makes little attempt at reasoned argument, but merely meanders down a well-worn ‘PC-bashing’ path.

There is a serious argument to be had here. This is not it. The Black Papers are nearly two decades old now but still provide a more substantive case in favour of ‘traditionalism’ then this.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Corruption-Curriculum-Robert-Whelan-Editor/dp/1903386594
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January 24, 2010 7:33pm
salt

“Is there any evidence that “the populace” is dumbing down, and if so is there any evidence that the education system is deliberately dumbing down “the populace?”

– I don’t know about ‘deliberate’, but the education system is dumbing down at an alarming rate – probably so that non-academic kids, and kids who aren’t so smart, are not made to feel like failures. We want everyone to pass, right? Because everyone’s valuable.

However, I wish that kids still had to learn at least basic history – so that the future generations learn from the mistakes of the past, or are at least aware that that cr*p happened before if it ever appears again – as opposed to what we now have, where the focus for many groups is on “practical life skills”, such as applying for a benefit (which is an accepted NCEA level 1 credit. I wish I could remember where I saw that so I could link it.)
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January 24, 2010 7:58pm
Pete George

Dumbing down, or teaching different things different ways? Reasonable questions.

Deliberately trying to make kids dumber, or more kids dumb? Where is the evidence?
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January 24, 2010 8:11pm
David in Chch

Interesting exam from Kansas 1895. I would point out, however, that children were often not expected to even finish grade school then.

I checked this link, by the way, at snopes.com. It is an interesting read.
http://www.snopes.com/language/document/1895exam.asp

I tried to cut and past parts of it, but cannot. Basically, it blows the “dumbing down” argument away. One thing it did note that I can mention easily and quickly is that there is NO mention of any other country (world geography or history), NO mathematics beyond basic arithmetic, etc.
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January 24, 2010 8:23pm
Redbaiter

Snopes are merely a husband and wife team, a couple of liberal wankers.

” Where is the evidence?”

There’s no “evidence” that you would ever accept as such you commie twit. You just sit there like a fucken parrot squawking ” where’s the evidence” when every person not blinded by a stinking ideology thats a century out of date knows as certain as the sun rises in the east that the left have utterly utterly fucked the education system for a long long time. They HAVE to dumb the people down or they’d never get them to buy into their unworkable fucking system.

You don’t even have the damn balls to suggest some guidelines for your friggin “evidence”. Go away you hopeless commie toss pot.
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January 24, 2010 8:48pm
Dirty Rat

Redbaiter

Great questions.

We at Kiwiblog are still waiting for your answers
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January 24, 2010 9:06pm
Dirty Rat

Redbaiter.

I know you are on-line so pleae feel free to do the exam, I will even give you leave for it to be completed by 3am
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January 24, 2010 9:10pm
Pete George

Ok, so you can’t back up what you claim. You could just say that, but instead your parrot the same old unsubstantiated rant. Did your education dumb you down?
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January 24, 2010 9:34pm
Repton

You don’t even have the damn balls to suggest some guidelines for your friggin “evidence”. Go away you hopeless commie toss pot.

If you were still at school, you might expect your teacher to tell you how to support your argument. But in the real world, if you make assertions you have to figure out how to support them yourself. I think, in this situation, the null hypothesis would be something like “We teach a different curriculum today, but it is not significantly easier or harder than the curriculum of previous generations”. If you claim this null hypothesis is false, then you need to prove your statement.

I don’t know how you would do that. Possibly, you could track down a curriculum or an exam from one or two generations ago, and show that the material in it is today covered at a later age or not at all.

But saying “education has clearly been dumbed down because there are more liberals around today” isn’t going to cut it.
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January 24, 2010 10:28pm
Redbaiter

“I don’t know how you would do that.”

There is a megaton of evidence out there to demonstrate that schools and universities since the left have gained control have been converted from education facilities to brainwashing camps where students are told how to think about social and political issues rather than given the means to reach their own decisions.

Its all part of the scheme to reduce the influence of parents on children and replace that influence with collectivist social instruction from teachers that are often too dumb themselves to even know what they’re doing and why.

The evidence is overwhelming. I have report after report, study after study, poll after poll, comments from teachers and lecturers, newspaper articles all you could possibly need in my own data base on the issue, but I know that whatever I posted here in response to Pete’s lame whining about “evidence” , it would be futile, for Mr. George’s purpose here is not to consider any argument candidly and without prejudice but to run interference for his extremist left wing comrades.
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January 24, 2010 11:18pm
PaulL

David of Christchurch:

One thing it did note that I can mention easily and quickly is that there is NO mention of any other country

I refer to Redbaiters post:

7. Name all the republics of Europe and give capital of each.

Given that the titles of the sections were:
– Grammar: no reason foreign countries would be in there
– Arithmetic: no reason foreign countries would be in there
– US History: no reason foreign countries would be in there
– Orthography: no reason foreign countries would be in there
– Health: no reason foreign countries would be in there

Leaving Geography, which had ten questions, one question that covered North America (presumably including Canada), and one that covered Europe. Of the remainder, five were related to physical phenomena, some of which used the US as an example.

Not so bad as you suggest.
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January 25, 2010 2:02am
Pete George

The evidence is overwhelming.

What you produced was interesting but as evidence it is underwhelming. None related to NZ, and it was easy to find views debunking or opposing them. Because you choose a report for your database doesn’t make it fact, it simply seems to mean you have found something you think backs your agenda.

Another couple if interesting angles to this question:
– does TV and movies influence social attitudes and political thinking more or less than schools and universities?
– does advertising influence what people do more than schools and universities?
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January 25, 2010 6:38am
Pete George

Mr. George’s purpose here is not to consider any argument candidly and without prejudice but to run interference for his extremist left wing comrades.

Do you consider any argument without prejudice? I doubt anyone does.

I often question what people post, I don’t just accept statements as facts. I think it’s fair enough on a debate forum to question if people have actually thought about what they are saying or just think it sounds good, or suits their angle. Some people seem to see this as “running interference” to their propaganda. Perhaps you shouldn’t post on a debate forum if you don’t want your stuff debated.

90% (or more) of NZ voters and poll responders are extreme left in relation to most of your views. But tyhat doesn’t make them extremist, they represent the majority. Get used to it.
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January 25, 2010 6:45am
Manolo

“Mathew Hooton has accused you of getting rich off taxpayer-funded national party polling contracts DPF. Is this true or is Hooton just shit-stirring again?”

The silence is deafening.
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January 25, 2010 7:23am
Redbaiter

” None related to NZ, and it was easy to find views debunking or opposing them.”

Where is the evidence they were debunked?

” Do you consider any argument without prejudice? I doubt anyone does.”

Where is the evidence of what everyone doubts?

” I often question what people post, I don’t just accept statements as facts. ”

Where is the evidence you don’t accept statements as facts? You make many “statements” yourself, more often than not of an extremely subjective mature fequently resorting to such terms as “everyone” and “everybody” and “the majority” ot “I think” (whilst being one of the largest collectors on negative kharma on Kiwiblog) without ever offering any “facts”.

” 90% (or more) of NZ voters and poll responders are extreme left in relation to most of your views.”

Where is the evidence?

Oh, you’ve got none? Well, by your own standards, must all be incorrect then.

Go away you boring bereft or argument brain damaged commie lamer. You never have anything except predictable tired old kneejerk commie propaganda and a bucketful of tears and hurt feelings.
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January 25, 2010 9:10am
Pete George

Tears of mirth.

” 90% (or more) of NZ voters and poll responders are extreme left in relation to most of your views.”

Where is the evidence?

You frequently berate National and Labour for being to left for you. That’s over 80%. Presumably the only NZ Progressive (Jim Anderton) party is too left for you, as presumably are Maori and Green. Are Act ok for you? That isn’t a lot of % points on your side of the spectrum.

You suggest extreme measures (removing them all from power, hanging them) so the implication is you think they are to extreme to the left to tolerate.

“Dumbing down” is an issue though.

Behind the dismal data on college graduate literacy is the new reality of higher education in America. Students today have little interest in what past generations of college students accepted as an essential education. Reading the literature of ”dead white guys,” studying the relevancy of a 400-year-old historical event, and thinking about the meaning of life’s mysteries are not of great interest to a growing number of college students.

Now, it’s all about focusing on a career path, studying narrowly about the skills required of that career path, and then crossing the stage on graduation day. The only problem, as the literacy study shows, is that this short-cut route to postgraduate adulthood leaves behind the building blocks of an educated person.

No one really knows when this kind of discount college education got its hold on American youth and why the old-fashioned essentials of liberal arts training went out of vogue. Some point to the Internet as the culprit, where all the answers are at the fingertips of the college student, or the popular culture, where the ideas of Oprah and Tom Cruise’s blog musings have the same stature as Plato’s ”Republic” or Shakespeare’s ”The Merchant of Venice.”

What is most disturbing about this college literacy study is that the level of proficiency has declined over time, and the trend shows no signs of abating. It seems that this country is stuck in a kind of ”knowledge black hole” that sucks out of college students the passion to become truly educated men and women.

http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2006/01/12/dumbing_down_a_college_education/

That is in the US, but still interesting.

It also doesn’t address statistics – are people in education dumber, or are there more dumb people going further through the education system?

No evidence yet that it is a communist plot though. Hard to believe that when there must be few communists left in the world.
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January 25, 2010 9:19am
Redbaiter

” there must be few communists left in the world”

Every word you post here is written with the sole objective of promoting that lie.
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January 25, 2010 9:27am
Pete George

“Every word you post here is written with the sole objective of promoting that lie.”

You may guess my “sole objective” but you have no way of knowing what it is. You choose to guess quite differently to what I claim. I suspect that is more a deliberate attempt to discredit, because it is based on nothing of substance.

I have never been a communist, and have never believed that communism is workable.

Communism collapsed last century, it couldn’t work in practice, and it collapsed under it’s own corruption.

Some people still cling to the communist bogeymen theory, some even name themselves after it.
Most people realise it is now 2010.
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January 25, 2010 9:38am
Redbaiter

Every word.
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January 25, 2010 9:47am

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