Herald calls for flag change

February 4th, 2010 at 8:53 am by David Farrar

The NZ Herald shows graphically why New Zealand needs a more distinctive flag.

They found:

A Herald survey of 18 of the 22 members of the Order of New Zealand – the country’s highest honour – has found 11 of them believe it is time for a new flag. Only five oppose a change at this time. One is unsure and one is unwilling to comment.

And some of their reasons:

“Our flag is too much like Australia’s and most people in the world don’t know the difference,” said former All Black captain Sir Brian Lochore.

He said New Zealand supporters at international sports events already waved what had become the de facto national flag – the silver fern on a black background. “We should take notice of what people do who support us. The people have been giving us a message about the flag they want.”

Sir Brian is right.

Former Prime Minister Jim Bolger said even officials sometimes got the two flags confused. “On the commemoration of the landing in Europe at the end of the Second World War, the Australian High Commissioner in London walked down off the podium and picked up the New Zealand flag and proudly carried it off,” he said.

“When I got down, I picked up the Australian one because that was the only one that was left. These things can happen; there is a similarity to them.”

From a distance you can’t even tell them apart on flagpoles unless the wind is blowing strongly.

Wellington businessman Lloyd Morrison, who in 2005 tried to gather signatures for a citizens-initiated referendum on the issue, said all the arguments raised against a change, such as honouring those who had died fighting under the present flag, were also used in Canada before it swapped the Union Flag for the maple leaf in 1965.

“Today I doubt if you could muster 1 per cent of the Canadian population who would go back to the old flag.”

We will change eventually, and after we have people will ask why did it take so long.

The Herald editorial endorses change:

Canada addressed this issue 45 years ago. It came up with its much-praised and instantly recognisable maple leaf design. The debate there was solely about identity, not about wider constitutional matters or the embracing of a republic. It need be no different here. The debate need not become bitter. Changing the flag is not about dishonouring those who fought under the present flag, just as that ensign, introduced officially in 1902 during a wave of patriotism occasioned by the Second Boer War, was not a slight on the New Zealanders who had fought under the Union Jack.

Indeed.

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190 Responses to “Herald calls for flag change”

  1. Auberon (779 comments) says:

    Yeah, I wake up in the morning and think, the flag’s just not doing it for me.

    What a load of old rubbish.

    Flag changes are for banana republics and military dictatorships.

    Canada is the exception. But really, do we want to ever do anything that apes Canada?!

    Pathetic.

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  2. Lipo (230 comments) says:

    The idea that people went to war and fought over a flag is ridiculous
    Fought under a flag, but never about it

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  3. peteremcc (316 comments) says:

    Yep, but as John Ansell suggests, for it to happen, there needs to be a general consensus on what the replacement should be.

    For a change to be popular, the new flag has to be popular too, and the the only design i’ve seen that I’d vote for over the existing flag at this stage is Kyle Lockwood’s (the black version):

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1c/Kyle_lockwood_nzflag_black.gif

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  4. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    Black Flags tend to be associated with Piracy, should keep it red white and blue imo.

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  5. Murray (8,803 comments) says:

    Yeah a newspaper is the right authority to make such a decision. Their graphic deomstrates the precise reasons why we will not be changing our flag to personally suit David Phylis Farrars wish to cordinate his nations flag and todays wardrobe.

    Auberon and Canadian army officer addresses some of the flasehoods about Canadas flag spread by John Ansell in an attempt to hijack a threat on my site. http://hittingmetalwithahammer.wordpress.com/2010/01/28/act-not-answering-questions-today/

    Or is it that like the harawiras DPF is a member of a consortium that will be charging royalties on all flag flying because they claim ownership of their white feather mockery?

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  6. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Yeah, I wake up in the morning and think, the flag’s just not doing it for me.

    Yep, and not just in the morning. The hodge podge of history rag should be consigned to history.

    We need a flag that everyone can be proud of, not just a few old farts.

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  7. somewhatthoughtful (472 comments) says:

    No, Sir Brian is wrong, very wrong, Who cares about what people recognise at sporting events? If they already recognise the silver fern as being NZ then why do we need to change? NZ is about more than sport, A LOT MORE than sport. If our flag was changed to the ultimate symbol of regressive kiwi culture then I’m leaving. I’ve said this before but I’ll say it again: All the designs that John Ansell and his group of flag-trenders are putting forward are terrible and aesthetically beholden to a particular period. There is nothing timeless about them AT ALL. This just shows me that we don’t have the design talent here to be able to even consider changing our flag.

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  8. redqueen (596 comments) says:

    Something in red, white, and blue, with a Kiwi on it (such as the RNZAF roundel) would make a lot more sense and be a bit more colourful than a black and white flag (or even a ‘silver’ flag).

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  9. Auberon (779 comments) says:

    But I’m young Pete George, though I am (in)famous for my flatulence.

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  10. Auberon (779 comments) says:

    Won’t it be ironic (or moronic) if this country changes its flag thanks to the work of the great social healer John Ansell.

    Iwi/Kiwi anyone?

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  11. Brian Smaller (3,966 comments) says:

    I think you will find that nowadays piracy mostly occurs under the Green flag.

    A silver fern on black get’s my vote. And I am for keeping a constitutional monarchy so it has no republican overtones for me.

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  12. peteremcc (316 comments) says:

    “I think you will find that nowadays piracy mostly occurs under the Green flag.”

    This.

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  13. Brian Smaller (3,966 comments) says:

    Somewhatthoughtful – A design incorporating whinging inferiority complexes is too hard. A silver fern is a lot easier.

    The silver fern is not just associated with sports. Our soldiers fought in WWII with the silver fern as part of their badges and their vehicle insignia.

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  14. Murray (8,803 comments) says:

    Fuck you Pete, its that sort of arrogant disprect for all others that makes you question for a corporate logo doomed to failure.

    It was good enough for Ed Hillaryss coffin but not you?

    What the fuck has your generation done to be so proud of anyway.

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  15. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    well then i’m sold on that argument hoist the black flag.

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  16. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    We need a flag that everyone can be proud of, not just people who think like old farts.

    I’m probably in the old fart category myself, I just prefer to see a new wind blow a new flag.

    This just shows me that we don’t have the design talent here to be able to even consider changing our flag.

    One design you don’t like doesn’t rule out everyone – as the Herald says it’s worth opening up design ideas to everyone and see what comes up.

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  17. andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    Its just elitists that are behind this is you ask me – certainly the Herald’s story reinforces that opinion for me

    http://nzconservative.blogspot.com/2010/02/little-people-are-not-patriotic.html

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  18. Zapper (1,048 comments) says:

    “If our flag was changed to the ultimate symbol of regressive kiwi culture then I’m leaving. ”

    What. an. idiot.

    Don’t wait for the flag change, just f**k off now.

    Murray, since it’s all about generations, please detail for us what you personally have done for New Zealand to write off generations of people (i.e. anyone younger than you) and their contribution to the nation.

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  19. Guy Fawkes (702 comments) says:

    Why not wait until Australia changes theirs, and then you can copy that?

    They have an unmarked avenue off a roundabout in Canberra just waiting for a plaque to confirm you joining hands.

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  20. peteremcc (316 comments) says:

    Anrei, how does calling ONZers Patriots automatically mean that non-ONZers aren’t?

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  21. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    Given this is an issue where “feelings” will be paramount, Pete George will have even more than usual to say.

    ….and its hardly surprising that Kiwiblog’s resident commie interloper agrees with his equally brain fucked progressive comrades at the Herald where editorials attacking property rights and promoting the good of the collective at the expense of individual rights are commonplace.

    Frankly, if those far left arseholes at the Herald (and Pete George) are for something, that’s probably one of the best reasons to be against it.

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  22. Sam (421 comments) says:

    Agree that current proposals (silver fern aside) are too 90s corporate – that is, almost offensive in their datedness. I hate the idea of a silver fern on black as a flag – I do not feel that it represents me in the slightest, unlike the current flag, which connects with the history of this nation for both Maori and Pakeha, as well as representing our place.

    But the confusion argument is pretty darn weak – I mean, red stars or white stars – what’s so difficult about that (I can understand why an Aussie got it wrong though…).

    I see more and more pride in the current design, with the way it is being employed in contemporary graphics – the red star (with its white border) is pretty darn distinctive…

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  23. andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    “Patriots agree: Time to change the NZ flag”

    Give me a break

    and this

    A majority of New Zealand’s most eminent citizens say it’s time to change the New Zealand flag.

    In a democracy its one man one vote an ONZ – a political honor anyway has no more say than I do and I am not about to touch my forelock to anyone.

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  24. Captain Neurotic (203 comments) says:

    Sorry DPF but I will always fly the NZ flag with the Union Jack, salute it and with my hand on my heart sing ‘God defend NZ’.

    That flag is one of the few links we still have to the old country…

    The combination of St Andrew’s, St George’s and St David’s Cross may not mean much to some but it means a shit load to me!

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  25. Mike S (177 comments) says:

    Replace it with the Harawira family fund-raising flag? Oh no, John Key’s already doing that for us.

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  26. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    ” Murray, since it’s all about generations, please detail for us what you personally have done for New Zealand to write off generations of people (i.e. anyone younger than you) ”

    He helped build what was once a great little country, and has had to stand by and watch ignorant uneducated drooling knuckle dragging Progressives in a fervour of narcissism, welfare addiction, deficit spending, marriage breakdown, broken families, institutionalised racism, violent crime and all round social degeneration, wantonly destroy it.

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  27. s.russell (1,649 comments) says:

    I support a flag change – and there are dozens of designs that I think would be better than the current flag.

    Redbaiter (and others), the more you make such abusive personal comments in lieu of rational argument the less reason I have to care what you think about the subject. How about some reasoned debate? I think that would be more persuasive.

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  28. big bruv (14,217 comments) says:

    The Herald article looses all credibility when it quotes Jim Bolger as a supporter, apart from being a fucking idiot, Bolger has the handicap of his Irish Catholic heritage to deal with.

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  29. dime (10,212 comments) says:

    jesus! those flags are awful.

    they look like they belong to some shit hole where the French used to do nuclear testing.

    ill be seriously pissed if they change our flag.

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  30. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    C. Neurotic, there is nothing to stop you continuing saluting the old flag and thinking god has something to do with saving New Zealand, at the same time as we find something representative of more New Zealanders.

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  31. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    ” I support a flag change – and there are dozens of designs that I think would be better than the current flag. ”

    This is what you call reasoned debate??????

    FFS- Its pure subjective bullshit. I say you cannot give one good objective reason for changing the flag.

    ” It looks too much like Australia’s flag”,

    ” Its time for a change”

    ” Canada did it”

    ..and the rest are all just subjective crap that can be said at anytime and have no foundation in reason whatsoever.

    I asked John Ansell (on a previous flag thread) to give three good objective reasons for a change of flag, and he couldn’t come up with one. Because there really isn’t one.

    Flag changers are only trying to create a mood for flag change. There is no rational reason to change the flag.

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  32. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    Who is “we” Pete? You and the usual gang of commies???

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  33. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    The Herald article looses all credibility when it quotes Jim Bolger as a supporter, apart from being a fucking idiot, Bolger has the handicap of his Irish Catholic heritage to deal with.

    Overriden by this?

    There is no rational reason to change the flag.

    You will find prats on any side of a debate, it’s no reason to ignore one side or the other.

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  34. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    There are more important issues to address in New Zealand and in the world than what design is on the wavy piece of fabric.

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  35. gazzaj (98 comments) says:

    Re the Canadian flag, nobody seems to be mentioning how truly awful the old one was – where we have the southern cross, Canadians were stuck with a coat of arms representing the royal houses of England, Scotland, Ireland and France – as well as having the Union Jack.

    Canada pretty much *had* to change their flag – NZ doesn’t.

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  36. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    ” You will find prats on any side of a debate,”

    Most of them on your side. Can you ever make a post that doesn’t contain a smug self righteous and sly insult against people who disagree with you??

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  37. Fletch (6,523 comments) says:

    There is nothing wrong with our flag; it’s full of the history of our country,. The herald graphic says our flag is lost in a ‘sea of Union Jacks’, but I have never seen any of those flags before, apart from Australia’s; in fact, aren’t we one of the few countries left still sporting the Union Jack?

    By the way, does anyone know what our ‘triple star’ is in the line “Guard Pacific’s triple star”?

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  38. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    I don’t think we need to change it but if we do why not keep it as it is and just replace the stars with a Kiwi. No way it would get confused with the Aussie flag then.

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  39. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    ” Canada pretty much *had* to change their flag – NZ doesn’t.”

    Canada is half French and there is considerable cultural tension there because of that. The French intensely disliked the Englsih heritage of the flag as it reminded them of their defeat by the British.

    The English/ French cultural divide is a major impediment to Canadian social progress.

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  40. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Can you ever make a post that doesn’t contain a smug self righteous and sly insult against people who disagree with you??

    Can you RB? Although sly is probably a bit tame for you.

    And then you whimper “Can you please cease these false allegations and vicious and unwarranted personal attacks?”
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2010/02/teacher_unions_against_achievement.html#comment-657691

    Keep the jokes rolling.

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  41. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    Stay on topic please Mr. George.

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  42. Jack5 (5,274 comments) says:

    Well that’s it then. Red Jim Bolger, perhaps the thickest PM in NZ’s history, and the NZ Hooerald, amok after its absentee and uninterested owner dropped the reins, support the flag change. Must be inevitable.

    Becoming a state of Australia is a far better economic option for NZ. Failing that, I’m all for Australian statehood for the South Island.

    In the meantime, it’s odd how banana republics are big on military heads of state, presidential palaces, uniforms, and giant flags. The fabled global warming would even give us the banana plantations.

    Any day now we’ll get the call for Willy Apiata to be the first president of Aotearoa, wherever the fuck that is.

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  43. Graeme Edgeler (2,972 comments) says:

    I note the Hawaiian flag in the graphic. If they can recognise their historic ties with Britain while a US state, then that argument seems to have very little weight.

    Can’t we just all agree that our current flag looks awesome, and looks way better than the Australian flag?

    Our flag is far more distinct from the Australian flag (and those others listed there) than the Irish and Italian flags are from each other.

    And don’t get me started on Thailand and Costa Rica.

    Someone please actually come up with a good argument for your change.

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  44. Jack5 (5,274 comments) says:

    Redbaiter posted at 10.01:

    …The English/ French cultural divide is a major impediment to Canadian social progress.

    Like the white-brown divide in NZ, expanding fast under Bro Key and the Maori Party?

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  45. Le Grande Fromage (145 comments) says:

    Those who want the flag changed should agree that the design that would best represent their modern thinking is two blokes bumming each other. It would certainly get us noticed at the Olympics.

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  46. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    Flag change is kiddy stuff.

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  47. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    ” Like the white-brown divide in NZ, expanding fast under Bro Key and the Maori Party?”

    Except that the French actually did have a civilisation and heritage (of sorts).

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  48. peteremcc (316 comments) says:

    Redbaiter, how about you give a rational reason why we should keep the existing one?

    Oh, and whatever you come up with, I’m just going to call it subjective so it doesn’t count – just like you have called anything anyone else suggests subjective.

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  49. big bruv (14,217 comments) says:

    Pete

    Surely you are not going to suggest that Bolger is anything but a fucking idiot?

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  50. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    “It would certainly get us noticed at the Olympics.”

    Don’t we already fly that flag at the Gay Olympics? Chris will know. :)

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  51. malcolm (1,952 comments) says:

    Let’s first change NZ, then we can talk about a new flag. It strikes me as desperate and diversionary to change the flag when the country is slipping out the bottom of the OECD, hasn’t sorted out the “one nation; one people” thing and 20% of NZ-born live overseas. It has a Third World / Lipstick on Pig whiff about it.

    “Today NZ unveils it’s new flag. This flag represents a new phase in NZ history. We’ve broken the strings to our First World past and are now proudly part of the Third World. A pacific island nation to rival Tonga and Fiji.”

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  52. Angus (536 comments) says:

    Three PC Doogood & PC Feelgood reasons for a flag change:

    1 – The Union Jack on the current flag is a constant reminder to Maori of how their pre-colonial utopia was trashed by British hegemony and imperialism.

    2 – The Union Jack represents W.A.S.P’s only and does nothing to address how Aotearoa has “moved on” and is now a society of “diversity”, “inclusion”, “tolerance” and resplendent multiculturalism.

    3 – “We” should sever all ties to any British heritage as it has become an anachronism. Besides, “our” future King Charles talks to trees and has an annual carbon footprint of 2601 tons (true)

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  53. Auberon (779 comments) says:

    DPF, can we take it from the comments so far – given that your extremely well read blog, which is read by extremely well-rounded people, is a fairly representative sample of this fine nation – that at this time in our history you and your change-the-flag buddies are not going to get this over the line because far too many people flatly oppose a change?

    You have to take the people with you old thing, and my reading of the mood is that even if you mounted another Lloyd Morrison-esque campaign you simply wouldn’t get enough people on your side for this to be done without huge resentment, which (surely you agree?) isn’t something you can have in large numbers with something this major.

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  54. malcolm (1,952 comments) says:

    Surely you are not going to suggest that Bolger is anything but a fucking idiot?

    His government attempted to do something about welfare dependency and they ran a smaller government than John Key seems happy with.

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  55. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    I was never a fan of Bolger (but have nothing much to judge on this century), but that doesn’t stop me agreeing with something he supports.

    All the Herald quotes him saying is:

    Yes, we should start the process of socialising and discussing the idea now.

    And this example of a reason to change:

    Former Prime Minister Jim Bolger said even officials sometimes got the two flags confused. “On the commemoration of the landing in Europe at the end of the Second World War, the Australian High Commissioner in London walked down off the podium and picked up the New Zealand flag and proudly carried it off,” he said.

    “When I got down, I picked up the Australian one because that was the only one that was left. These things can happen; there is a similarity to them.”

    Nothing to fault him on there. Especially “discussing the idea”, a democratic sort of idea that guarantees nothing but gives people the chance to mull it over at least. Allowing a choice sort of thing (radical eh) , not like some people shouting it down because they want to impose their view.

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  56. Craig Ranapia (1,266 comments) says:

    So, according to the subeditor who headlined the story; Patriots agree: Time to change the NZ flag. Can we assume that it is now unpatriotic to disagree with (or be utterly indifferent to) The Herald in campaign mode? Even if you agree that we need a new flag, The Herald has crossed a line if it really wants a “serious” debate.

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  57. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    ” Redbaiter, how about you give a rational reason why we should keep the existing one? ”

    I can not only do that, I can give good reasons as to why we should not change.

    The reality is tho, that it is encumbent on those who want change to justify that change. Change for the sake of change is just pointless and creates division for no good reason.

    Which incidentally is what flag change is all about. It is always the left’s intent to divide any society they want to control into small factional distracted groups. This strategy makes it so much easier for them to work steadily away in the background on their main project. (so we have Maori, multiculturalism, homosexual rights, flag change etc etc etc). John Ansell, an admirable bloke, is sometimes quite unaware politically, and this is one of those times.

    The reason for keeping the flag as it is is that it is a recognised identifiable and historical symbol that has considerable emotional significance to a large number of NZers and it is insulting to those NZers to suggest it is in actuality a symbol that lacks worth or respect.

    The implication in calls to change the flag is that in their belief in and sacrifices they have made for the way of life the flag symbolizes, they have been fooled. This is quite untrue. The traditional values the flag symbolizes to them have considerable worth.

    There is great political advantage for the left in having NZ society split down another divide over flag change. The quelling of the flag argument actually helps in confounding the left’s long march political strategy, and anything that confounds the left has my support and should have the support of everyone who values liberty over the sick collectivist society the left wish to impose upon us.

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  58. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    given that your extremely well read blog, which is read by extremely well-rounded people, is a fairly representative sample of this fine nation

    Can you support this claim? You would make decisions for the country based on your interpretation of what you read on a couple of hours of blogging?? Why bother with elections then.

    This can’t be a National Party (or any party) led discussion, it needs to be a real people of New Zealand thing.

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  59. Paulus (2,707 comments) says:

    What a load of balls.

    If this is the best the Herald can do no wonder their subscriptions are dropping.

    Bolger is still a bog Irishman so his views are well know, but he did nothing about it when he was PM.

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  60. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    ” Oh, and whatever you come up with, I’m just going to call it subjective so it doesn’t count – just like you have called anything anyone else suggests subjective.”

    Of course, but are purely subjective reasons good reasons for change?

    I say once again, it is more incumbent upon those who seek change to justify it than it is for those who do not seek change to justify their POV.

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  61. kowtow (8,936 comments) says:

    The Herald graphic is a non starter. Many of the flags shown are not national flags in the first place.

    Secondly IMHO it tends to show we are in good company, along with other jurisdictions that value their common history,values and connections.

    The Canada issue is very different to the NZ one.They did not have their own flag as such,we do so we dont need a new one. The issue was divisive in Canada. They had a unique problem of their Frogs to appease,something that could still bust the Federation and is always high on the agenda there,but generally unreported here until it comes to the boil as it occassionally does. So their new flag is meant to rep. both Eng and Fre ,but I’d guess most Bloc voters in Quebec couldn’t give a shit for the maple leaf.

    The flag of Irish Rep is meant to symbolise the 2 traditions there ,green for Catholic nationalist and orange for Protestant unionist,works a treat there……….NOT! How many can tell the diff between Irsh and Italian flags? Does it matter? Who cares?

    To the earlier poster who included St David in the Union flag,he’s not there, it’s Sts George ,Andrew and Patrick.

    I like the flag we have,no need for change.

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  62. Manolo (14,166 comments) says:

    “The English/ French cultural divide is a major impediment to Canadian social progress.”

    Valid point. You have to spend time in Toronto and Montreal, as I have, to prove how correct the above statement is.

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  63. Auberon (779 comments) says:

    Quite Redbaiter, I’d also add that the present flag is perfectly representative of this country.

    Starting with the Union Jack. Were we or were we not colonised by Great Britain? For every PC idiot who tries to tell me this should be erased because of how Maori were treated I’ve got a well documented tale of how thankful Maori were for Great Britain stepping in and stopping the warring tribes for self destructing. Great Britain were good enough to save the Maori from wiping themselves out.

    Then there’s the southern cross. Is that not representative of where we live?

    Anyway, it tires me to have to try and justify this stuff because those who argue for change keep trying to bestow upon the flag representative and ethereal nation-building attributes that meet their (presently minority) view of what they want this country to become; things that go way beyond a flag’s role.

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  64. Pita (314 comments) says:

    I have noted in the past that the issue of “the flag” gets raised as a diversion, to take the masses attention away from some unpalatable legislation…what?…I have no idea, perhaps their are others who are more learned. I remember a quote from Muldoon’s day “the flag is the last resort of the scoundrel”

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  65. Captain Neurotic (203 comments) says:

    You know what Pete, sometimes I forget that whilst I strive to serve NZ their are cunts like you sipping chardonnay at home who don’t deserve my efforts –

    Thanks for the reminder

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  66. Scott (1,807 comments) says:

    I agree with much of the above. I like our flag — it is colourful, the Southern Cross represents us and the union Jack represents our heritage. I see no reason to change it.

    On the other hand there are many reasons not to change. For example the black flag as many have mentioned looks very much like a pirate flag. The silver fern, although a proud symbol of the All Blacks, can be seen by some ignorant of our proud rugby heritage, as a white feather — the symbol of cowardice. So we could find ourselves with a very distinctive New Zealand flag that looks like surrender to some of the world and piracy to the rest. It makes the concerns about our current flag being too similar to other flags pale into insignificance.

    The other difficulty is that we just do not seem to be able to design anything right now. In my view it is a religious problem in part — we are cut off from our Christian heritage and so have no sense of the transcendent. The other part of the problem is just a relentless desire for change, in my view because of boredom. So we design buildings for example that have no relationship to our past — think the Supreme Court building — and are utterly monstrous.

    I just cannot imagine with our current low level of culture, that designers will be able to put together a flag that has any coherent reference to our past and will be meaningful to our future.

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  67. Angus (536 comments) says:

    . . . besides, what the fuck did Bolger do in order to warrant being awarded the ONZ, that wasn’t based on his own self-interest ?

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  68. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    I say once again, it is more incumbent upon those who seek change to justify it than it is for those who do not seek change to justify their POV.

    That’s one thing you say that’s right. Skip the political diatribe, the repeats get very boring. Flag preference is a part of left/right war? Yeah, right.

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  69. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    I’d also add that the present flag is perfectly representative of this country.

    As you see it perhaps, you aren’t everyone in this country.

    Starting with the Union Jack.

    One side of my family came here to get away from Great Britain and what it stood for. Many others did the same.

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  70. Auberon (779 comments) says:

    Indeed Pete George, and you’re perfectly welcome to your view, but as I’ve pointed out in an earlier post, those of you holding that view, even if you were in the majority, are nowhere near being a large enough majority for a change to be feasible any time soon.

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  71. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    I don’t think it will happen soon either Auberon. It isn’t a pressing issue. But one day I’m sure it’s time will come.

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  72. OTGO (579 comments) says:

    Leave the bloody flag alone! Any choices put before the nation will be divisive thanks to Maoris, republicans, greenies etc etc. And we don’t need division right now we need unity. Besides once the flag is changed there will be a call to change the national anthem. We already sing (actually I don’t) it in two languages which just pisses me off at an AB test. Leave things alone people, we have more to worry about than this small stuff.

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  73. somewhatthoughtful (472 comments) says:

    “What. an. idiot.

    Don’t wait for the flag change, just f**k off now.”

    lol, so you want a flag that represents sport and war? i can feel your ego from here. At least the current one represents something not so blatently masculine. Some of you guys really are scared that NZ is going to turn into a nation of pansies and pussies if we don’t re-embrace rugby, racing and (shit) beer aren’t you?

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  74. malcolm (1,952 comments) says:

    Selecting a new flag will inevitably be a popularity contest. And at least half the population have no taste whatsoever so the outcome could be hideous and meaningless.

    Maybe modify the existing one to make it a little more distinctive. E.g. write “New Zealand (not the same as Australia)” along the bottom?

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  75. Bevan (3,232 comments) says:

    Nice of the Herald the state loudly that “Patriots agress” on changing the flag, yet they haven’t listed who the patriots are, or what they classify as a patriot….

    Also, if one of the main reasons for changing the flag is that it is too similar to the Aussie one, then why don’t we just wait until the Aussies changes, then you blind idiots who cant tell one from the other will be able to tell which is which.

    And in response to the Herald article as well: I doubt an American can find us on the map, let alone tell which flag is ours or not – and I doubt they care either.

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  76. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    In my opinion changing the flag is nothing more than an attempt by the socialists/progressives to further extend the myth that “All change is good”. Have we not, as a society, been systematically brainwashed over the last forty or so years in this regard? Change IS NOT always good, and sometimes it’s downright evil.

    Sometimes it’s important to hang on to our history, and those things that symbolise where we’ve come from.
    No doubt revisionist historians will disagree with me.

    I wonder how many of those that want to change the flag also want our current National Anthem gone – can’t have God defending New Zealand, afterall.

    PS I don’t hear much demand from Aussie for them to change their flag.

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  77. mavxp (483 comments) says:

    This is complete bollocks.

    Sharing the union jack with other commonwealth states is not a negative thing at all.

    It shows our historical as well as current cultural ties to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Having lived in London I can tell you it feels more like home than you would expect given the shear number of kiwis living there at any given time.

    If there is anything to consider it is the steps needed for us to join the Australian Federation. Not this waste of time issue over a mere symbol, the replacement of which NO ONE CAN AGREE ON.

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  78. Peter (1,694 comments) says:

    >>I wonder how many of those that want to change the flag also want our current National Anthem gone – can’t have God defending New Zealand, afterall.

    Hell yes. Our anthem is a tuneless dirge that sounds like someone running up and down a scale exercise.

    Bleeding awful….

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  79. 3-coil (1,199 comments) says:

    Who cares what Jim “Spud” Bolger thinks – his vote for will go to any flag with a bloody great big potato on it…preferably with a nice Catholic green background.

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  80. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    It seems that Paul Reeves is a patriot just like Spud, thats a good enough reason for me to join the non-patriot side.

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  81. Chthoniid (2,047 comments) says:

    @Peter

    Hell yes. Our anthem is a tuneless dirge that sounds like someone running up and down a scale exercise.

    Bleeding awful….

    Yes, that pretty much nails it.

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  82. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Nice of the Herald the state loudly that “Patriots agress” on changing the flag, yet they haven’t listed who the patriots are, or what they classify as a patriot….

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10623995&pnum=0

    Our anthem is a tuneless dirge that sounds like someone running up and down a scale exercise.

    Too true.

    It’s sad how some people seem to choose which side of an argument to go for based on who agrees or disagrees. Can’t they look at the merits of each side?

    If Australia change their flag then the world (those that give a toss) will still think our flag is them.

    A Spud flag is so last century. The key to a good flag is something more current…..how about a Key for the future?

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  83. somewhatthoughtful (472 comments) says:

    “In my opinion changing the flag is nothing more than an attempt by the socialists/progressives to further extend the myth that “All change is good”. Have we not, as a society, been systematically brainwashed over the last forty or so years in this regard? Change IS NOT always good, and sometimes it’s downright evil.”

    Nice try but I think you’ll find most progressives and socialists are against the idea (well, all the ones I know, which is quite a few) and it is being led by NACT strategist John Ansell. Seems like white right-wingers with threatened masculinity leading the charge to me.

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  84. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull 9:54 am,

    There are more important issues to address in New Zealand and in the world than what design is on the wavy piece of fabric.

    While strictly speaking you are correct, Ryan, perhaps you miss the broader principle (some might say ‘agenda’).
    Some view the reason that our society is in the mess it is, is because we have allowed the ‘small’, ‘inconsequential’, ‘unimportant’ things to slip. Not that I think changing our flag falls into your definition.

    For instance, morality doesn’t disappear overnight; but is slowly eroded away over a period of time.
    Maybe the small bits don’t seem to matter, but add them altogether and you have a society largely unrecognisable to forty years ago – as we indeed do.

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  85. Le Grande Fromage (145 comments) says:

    Who cares if Johnny foreigner can recognise us by our flag or not. Those who use the “people think we’re Aussies” debate are the same people who jizz in their undies with excitement when the word New Zealand gets used on some US sitcom or our world champion tiddley winks player gets interviewed on the Portugese equivalent of Campbell live.
    We need to grow up and become self confident enough to not base our nationalistic pride on what others think of us. If we are good enough others will know our name.

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  86. MT_Tinman (3,315 comments) says:

    I’d hate to say I agree with Red and co. on this.

    So I won’t.

    There can be no justification for NZ displaying the flag of a foreign country on ours.

    The only change acceptable therefore is drop the flag of that foreign country off the NZ flag and centralise the Southern Cross.

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  87. Bevan (3,232 comments) says:

    To be completely honest, if we are to change our flag, I quite like (crow chewing time) Helen Clark’s idea of just deleting the Union Jack.

    And yes, I know after stating that I have to hand in my VRWC membership card…..

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  88. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Johnboy 10:26 am,

    “It would certainly get us noticed at the Olympics.”

    Don’t we already fly that flag at the Gay Olympics? Chris will know.

    Did you mean: “Kris will know”?

    [I assume as no other ‘Chris’ has commented you did.]

    You know I get ALL my information from the Bible, Johnboy, if it ain’t in there I have absolutely no idea :twisted:

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  89. big bruv (14,217 comments) says:

    MT_Tinman

    It might be a “foreign country” to you but it represents part of my heritage.

    If anybody is going to take that away from me then I want compensation, the figure of $600 million should do it.

    Of course, I (and generations of “bruv’s to come) will use the removal of our flag as an excuse for any trouble they might get into.

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  90. Bevan (3,232 comments) says:

    Of course, I (and generations of “bruv’s to come) will use the removal of our flag as an excuse for any trouble they might get into.

    Ohhhhh I want in on that! I sense a Treaty claim. I take it whitey can make a treaty claim can’t he?

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  91. somewhatthoughtful (472 comments) says:

    “For instance, morality doesn’t disappear overnight; but is slowly eroded away over a period of time.
    Maybe the small bits don’t seem to matter, but add them altogether and you have a society largely unrecognisable to forty years ago – as we indeed do.”

    And if you go 40 years before that you have a society that looks nothing like the one you are referencing. piety is dead, deal with it.

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  92. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    somewhatthoughtful 11:23 am,

    “In my opinion changing the flag is nothing more than an attempt by the socialists/progressives to further extend the myth that “All change is good”. Have we not, as a society, been systematically brainwashed over the last forty or so years in this regard? Change IS NOT always good, and sometimes it’s downright evil.”

    Nice try but I think you’ll find most progressives and socialists are against the idea (well, all the ones I know, which is quite a few) and it is being led by NACT strategist John Ansell. Seems like white right-wingers with threatened masculinity leading the charge to me.

    Can you clarify your “Seems like white right-wingers with threatened masculinity leading the charge to me.” comment please. It comes across as not much more than an ad hominen attack otherwise.

    And on Kiwiblog if one repents then forgiveness is usually forthcoming – of course if you don’t then we string you up. :twisted:

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  93. bearhunter (822 comments) says:

    Intersting to see so many decrying Bolger as a spud-thick Mick and barracking his opinion on the basis of his ethnic background. Perhaps we should get rid of the anthem, then since it was also written by a bog-trotting Paddy?

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  94. big bruv (14,217 comments) says:

    ““It would certainly get us noticed at the Olympics.”

    FOR FUCK SAKE!!!!!

    This will come as a major surprise to most Kiwis but the rest of the world DOES NOT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT US!!!

    They are NOT going to get all emotional about us changing our flag and they do NOT hold a special place in their hearts because we are Kiwis.

    Most have no idea where we are.

    Most have no idea what we are about.

    Most have never heard of the All Blacks.

    Most cannot tell the difference between the Aussie Accent and ours (and nor should they)

    Most have never heard of John Key or Helen Clark.

    Most think that Ed Hillary was English and when told that he was not, could not care less.

    If I had the power to cure two things in this rapidly emerging third world nation it would be to get rid of our pathetic identity crisis and our rampant insecurity.

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  95. tvb (4,553 comments) says:

    The Canadian maple leaf design if you look at it closely looks like two people (i.e. French and English) in profile arguing. I hope we do not make a similar mistake here. Our present flag is just fine – the Union Jack represents the nature of our important institutions including the Queen as our Head of State and I have no argument whatsoever with the Southern Cross. Leave it alone unless we become a republic. As for confusion with Australia we have had that for years and years and anyhow in terms of our economy we are really part of Australia.

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  96. KiwiGreg (3,278 comments) says:

    All these people who chunter on about our flag “not looking different enough” really haven’t looked at other countries’ flags at all. The Dutch flag is just the French flag on its side; the nordic states are just colour variations on a theme and so many countries just have different coloured horizontal lines its not funny.

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  97. KiwiGreg (3,278 comments) says:

    Also, this really isnt an “A” issue for New Zealand, or it shouldnt be

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  98. barry (1,191 comments) says:

    Well in the light of the vested interest in the ‘Maori’ flag – IE: the harawira family attempt to copyright the Tino flag – I think the herald has chosen a particularly stupid time to raise the subject.

    If such a plan got underway then the first question is going to be “Whose going to be on the take from this?”

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  99. fatman43us (163 comments) says:

    That’s right, let’s spend two years arging over the bloody flag! Forget we have no Constitution, Forget the place ios a total shambles, just let’s spend our time arguing over a bloody rag. Let’s try to wander at least into the 20th Century.

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  100. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    somewhat-UN-thoughtful 11:41 am,

    And if you go 40 years before that you have a society that looks nothing like the one you are referencing. piety is dead, deal with it.

    Oh, don’t worry; I “deal with it” on a daily basis.
    And it annoys the hell out of me … along with most right minded people that see the consequential destination society will, quite shortly, arrive at.

    People like you, no doubt, will have no clue until it’s too late; and you have arrived at the ‘final destination’ – you’ll probably “weep and nash your teeth” at the same time as realisation kicks in.

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  101. Le Grande Fromage (145 comments) says:

    Perhaps KiwiGreg has stumbled on something here. Maybe there should be an international movement to get all countries to change their flags to something that would more readilly identify them. Perhaps a Belgian flag with a pipe smoking pederast on it, a Japanese flag with a guy knocking one out to animated porn or a Nigerian flag with someone commiting credit card fraud.

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  102. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    It’s working a treat fatman, 100 comments already and it isn’t even lunchtime yet. :)

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  103. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Surely you are not suggesting a Fred Dagg like character shagging a sheep for our new banner Big Cheese.

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  104. adamsmith1922 (724 comments) says:

    The flag issue is a stupid distraction.

    Of fair more importance is sorting out our constitution and putting in place a robust, written one

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  105. Positan (396 comments) says:

    Unfortunately, there are very few current ONZ holders whose opinions on anything would I consider worthy. It’s bad enough so many of them are former politicians whose claims to any sort of honour are questionable and dubious, but it’s most unfortunate that the Herald saw fit to consult this group as if it had been wholly representative of the sort of mental capacity required to make such an emphatic pronouncement. Clearly, it is not, and that should have been the end of it. Bolger and Lochore should have known far better.

    For God’s sake, aren’t there so many far more important issues on which we should be concentrating our time? Frankly, to read some of the above comments – so inanely rendered in support of unnecessary and uncalled for change, and articulated with equally unnecessary fervour – cause me to believe we should be spending far more time worrying about declining mental health standards in supposed adults.

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  106. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    ” One side of my family came here to get away from Great Britain and what it stood for.”

    OK, what is your favourite country?

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  107. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    New Zealand. The only country I have identified with.

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  108. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    So why do you constantly seek to change everything here? I say you’re a liar and you favourite country is the idiotic socialist Nirvana that you see in your minds eye and that drives every comment you make on Kiwiblog and directs very dullwitted socialist thought you have ever had.

    What was it that Britain ” stood ” for that you wanted to escape?

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  109. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Positan 11:59 am,

    Frankly, to read some of the above comments – so inanely rendered in support of unnecessary and uncalled for change, and articulated with equally unnecessary fervour – cause me to believe we should be spending far more time worrying about declining mental health standards in supposed adults.

    Well said.
    Always thought that Progressives lacked, not only any form of morality, but sufficient mental health as well.
    They do deserve to be locked up, most of them.

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  110. senzafine (457 comments) says:

    I’m all for changing the flag as i really do not believe that the current NZ Flag really represents us as a nation. Our links to the old country while still strong no longer define us as a country, so why should we carry the UJ on our flag? The crux depicted on our current flag cements us as Australia’s little brother, or poor cousin if you like. Why should we allow our flag to feed the good old tall poppy syndrome? The colours are irrelevant as NZ’s adopted national colours are white on black – why do we not carry these on our flag?

    Yep. Its time for the flag to change. White/silver fern on black please.

    In saying that, I’m particularly fond of the RNZN’s white ensign.

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  111. m@tt (636 comments) says:

    Herald calls for WTF?

    How about:
    Herald calls for action on jobless numbers.
    Herald calls for consultation on sinking flagship education policy.
    Herald calls for democratic super city.

    Useless fourth estate prats.

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  112. Sam (421 comments) says:

    What makes an ONZ automatically patriotic, or more patriotic than anyone else?

    And, the current flag references the journey that both maori (the Southern Cross) and pakeha (the Union Jack) have made – the end result being the nation of NZ – just as it should be.

    The Harawira thing – or rather the fact that anyone is trying to collect from a flag that is meant to be representative of a culture/community – has probably signed the death-knell for that design, just as Key officially endorses it…

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  113. Say Goodbye to Hollywood (461 comments) says:

    I’ll buggered if I’m going to have a sliver fern on a black flag. The silver fern has a huge association with sport, if that’s the best we can come up with then I’ll stick with the incumbent.

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  114. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    “I’m all for changing the flag as i really do not believe that the current NZ Flag really represents us as a nation.”

    Whatever you might think you “believe”,m (in your poor brainwashed mental state) the fact is it does.

    ” Our links to the old country while still strong no longer define us as a nation, ”

    They do actually, and even if they did not, you would still need to explain why it is a good idea to move away from those ” links.” Who would you like to link up with? Where would you prefer your historical links to lie with? Red China? Russia?

    ” The crux depicted on our current flag cements us as Australia’s little brother, or poor cousin if you like.”

    It does not, and I do not like.

    ” Why should we allow our flag to feed the good old tall poppy syndrome? ”

    It doesn’t. This claim is the ranting of a disturbed mind. You should see a shrink and tell him about your inferiority complex.

    ” The colours are irrelevant ”

    They aren’t actually. They’re quite significant.

    ” NZ’s adopted national colours are white on black ”

    They are not actually., and that you believe they are is yet another indication of some kind of severe mental disarray.

    “why do we not carry these on our flag?”

    Because it was designed with different colours by people who far exceed your own grasp on rationale, history and style.

    “Yep. ”

    Nope.

    ” Its time for the flag to change. ”

    Its not time to change the flag. Any more delerious subjective shit to clog up this thread with?? I hope not.

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  115. Sam (421 comments) says:

    Oh- and there are only 4 other countries that feature the Southern Cross on their national flags – Aus, Brazil, Papua New Guinea, and Samoa…

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  116. Viking2 (11,672 comments) says:

    Clearly the Herald now knows that it is becoming irrelevant. No hard news, no debate about anything of consequence, no cutting edge evaluation nor any investigative journalism.
    So what next beat up a storm on a subject that was beaten to death several years ago, repeated recently on Kiwiblog and to do that they wander around fawning to bunch of people who are barley distinguished and who mostly got honours donated for political effort.

    Why would anyone bother to buy the rag?
    Oh and yes where is the investigation into the biggest scam of the last 15 years eh? Does global Warming, ETS, Fraudhaven etc ring any bells?

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  117. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Redbaiter 12:23 pm,

    Your quite correct, Red: those that are all for changing the flag (and perhaps the National Anthem) can only make emotive plees and appeals to others who likely share questionable motives, and are also all for re-engineering society as well.
    Those that are just plain ignorant are not much more than ‘enablers’.

    Some of us, at least, can see the real intent behind the call to change the flag.

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  118. KiwiGreg (3,278 comments) says:

    “and perhaps the National Anthem”

    That’s already been changed, the first verse is sung in Maori now.

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  119. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    KiwiGreg 12:46 pm,

    Indeed, Greg.

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  120. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Some of us, at least, can see the real intent behind the call to change the flag.

    Yeah yeah, conspiracy theory blah blah blah. The next plot will be to change the cross to be more representative of varying beliefs.

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  121. kowtow (8,936 comments) says:

    ” We are a nation of laws”
    “We are a parliamentary democracy”
    “We are English speaking”
    “We are a member of the Commonwealth”
    “The Queen is our Head of State”
    The majority of our ancestors came from the British Isles.
    Our favourite sports are rugby,in it’s various guises,cricket ,soccer,horses,golf etc
    Our holidays and festivals are inherited from our Christian/British heritage.
    If there’s anything that defines us ,it’s our Britishness,let’s be proud of that and our flag proclaims that fact.

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  122. Jeff83 (747 comments) says:

    Bigger issues to deal with at the moment vs flags. Personally I like the idea of an identifiable flag, but at the same time the current flag is what I know and I do respect it. Personally think it can wait to the day we get to the point we can be a republic, and like a fresh start. Till then reckon it can wait.

    “That’s already been changed, the first verse is sung in Maori now. ” “Indeed, Greg.”

    And its much better for it, much more beautiful to listen to and more unique than the original english script, even if it still says the same turgid mambo.

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  123. niggly (832 comments) says:

    Good grief, there’s more important things to worry about than changing NZ’s flag, especially when its from people with vested interests (and totally crap designs anyway).

    Also the Australian flag came about after the NZ flag. So those that propose a new NZ flag because it looks the same as the Australian flag and endlessly repeat that mantra, why don’t they instead suggest that Australia change theirs because it looks like the NZ flag (that they copied)!

    I’m happy with the current one that has some historical meaning, but concede that it is lacking a bit of something when alongside the Aussie one, thus why not keep it as it is AND put the silver fern (or another maori symbol eg koru) underneath the Union Jack?

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  124. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    kowtow 12:57 pm,

    Amen to that, brother (sister).

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  125. serge (108 comments) says:

    Just another ploy to sell papers, there are more important issues to be bothered about; unemployment, crime, and the country’s borrowing……the flag is the least of our worries.

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  126. John Ansell (832 comments) says:

    Redbaiter lied by saying: “I asked John Ansell (on a previous flag thread) to give three good objective reasons for a change of flag, and he couldn’t come up with one. Because there really isn’t one.”

    For the benefit of anyone who suspects Redbaiter might be telling the truth, here is the lengthy response I made to his challenge on that thread. He acknowledged it at the time, but now claims I did not make it.

    No doubt he will try to split hairs by saying my response was deficient, but to suggest I ‘couldn’t come up with one’ is a lie, as you can now read:

    “OK Red, how’s this (not that it’ll make the slightest difference I suspect, since flags are about emotion, not logic):

    “1. National pride.

    “New Zealanders will feel better about themselves if they have a flag that reflects their country – not their region or their hemisphere or the birth country of a dwindling majority of their grandparents.

    “During the British Empire, our parents and grandparents saw themselves as British. They called Britain ‘home’. It was fair enough that they wanted to look like a member of that club.

    “(I’ll shortly be posting all the blue ensign flags of British colonies. There are so many it’s taken days, and literally made my cutting and pasting fingers numb.)

    “In the 21st century the Commonwealth is no longer British. It no longer includes the word British. Only 16 of its 73 members retain any Britishness on their flags.

    “They are Australia, New Zealand, the UK and 13 tiddlers.

    “(Anguilla, Bermuda, British Indian Ocean Territory, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Cook Islands, Falkland Islands, Monserrat, Pitcairn Islands, Saint Helena & Dependencies, South Georgia & South Sandwich Islands, Turks & Caicos Islands, Tuvalu.)

    “2. National unity.

    “I’m raising this issue now because we’re flying two flags on Waitangi Day.

    “Despite being unfairly branded a racist for my Iwi/Kiwi billboard, I have no problem with Maori flying their own flag. (I just happen to think a version of Jeffy James’s flag would be a better and more respectful choice than the Maori sovereignty option – but they were steamrolled into choosing Hone’s flag, with no real choice.)

    http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2010/01/04/maori-should-fly-this-flag/

    “But a better choice still would be if Maori, British, Irish, Chinese, Indian, Samoan, Somali and all other New Zealanders felt happy to fly one flag – not one imperial flag and one racial flag.

    “And as I’ve said before, those who believe it’s important to have Maori represented on the flag can take comfort that the silver fern was chosen by the Maori captain of the New Zealand Natives rugby team after a Maori proverb:

    ‘Mate atu he toa ara mai he toa.’
    ‘When one warrior dies, another arises.’
    ‘Mate atu he tetakura ara mai he tetakura.’
    ‘When one fern dies, another arises.’

    “3. National identification.

    “Yes, the dreaded word branding.

    “Why not have a flag that can also serve the country as a logo? Canada’s does. Japan’s does. Switzerland’s does. The Union Jack does. Most other countries don’t, because their flags aren’t recognisable enough.

    “Much as many people here seem to hate the All Blacks, the fact remains that we have in this country one of the great sporting brands of the world. There’s no logic in rejecting the silver fern and the colour black just because they started life as a sporting emblem.

    “So does that change your mind Red? Nah, thought not :-)”

    Redbaiter may not consider those good reasons, or objective reasons, but as you can see I did not duck his challenge.

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  127. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    So why do you constantly seek to change everything here?

    I don’t. I’m a lot happier with the political status quo than you are.

    I say you’re a liar and you favourite country is the idiotic socialist Nirvana that you see in your minds eye and that drives every comment you make on Kiwiblog and directs very dullwitted socialist thought you have ever had.

    What you say doesn’t matter, it doesn’t come close to defining me (and you know that), no matter how much you repeat your dullwitted attempts.

    What was it that Britain ” stood ” for that you wanted to escape?

    I said one side of my family – I have never been to Britain nor identified with Britain, I have no empathy with the place. neither of my parents expressed any link with Britain other than historical.

    I like New Zealand a lot more than you seem to.

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  128. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    While they were at it, why didn’t the Herald give each of the 22 members of the Order of New Zealand a table napkin each and a Biro and see what they could knock out? It might have given things a little perspective.

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  129. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    John at 1:05 pm: Redbaiter lied

    The sun rose this morning.

    At least John has the balls to back up what he believes in and tries to do something honestly.

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  130. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    The flag is easier and should be a lot quicker, maybe ten years.

    Have to wait until the monarchy dies to start arguing over a constitution.

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  131. Bevan (3,232 comments) says:

    New Zealanders will feel better about themselves if they have a flag that reflects their country

    That really depends on the individual, the flag as I see it currently represents the nation of NZ – and when ever I see it I feel a sense of pride and feel my heart beat just a little faster and frankly do not need it to be changed to “feel better”. The current flag represents this country and has done since it was officially adopted, and its only your opinion that it doesnt reflect the country as a great majority think it reflects our country quite nicely.

    If you cannot feel better about yourself unless your countries flag is changed, then I’d suggest you will not feel better when it is.

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  132. radar (318 comments) says:

    “For the benefit of anyone who suspects Redbaiter might be telling the truth…”

    Don’t worry, John. No one here is that stupid.

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  133. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    John, I’m disappointed you stooped to the old Stalinist tactic of allegations of lying. Such allegations should only be made when the evidence is concrete and firm, and not when there is such wide room for argument as in this case. Otherwise it just becomes a smear.

    In fact I asked you to answer the questions in a quite specific manner and you failed completely to abide by those specifications. I am not lying. As I said, IMHO as always, you completely failed to come up with an “objective” reason. I did not say you ignored the question.

    What you really need to do is ask yourself why the extreme left (Pete George for example) are so fully behind you in this endeavour. Shouldn’t there be alarm bells ringing for you somewhere?

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  134. Zapper (1,048 comments) says:

    “lol, so you want a flag that represents sport and war? i can feel your ego from here. At least the current one represents something not so blatently masculine. Some of you guys really are scared that NZ is going to turn into a nation of pansies and pussies if we don’t re-embrace rugby, racing and (shit) beer aren’t you?”

    I didn’t say anything about changing the flag. I simply said that anyone who would change their whole life over a piece of fabric should just f**k off now and save the trouble.

    But thanks for telling me what I think. Not very thoughtful at all are you?

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  135. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    I am Karl Marx reincarnated. John Ansell is under my control. If you look at his flag and let your eyes drift out of focus you will start to see hammer and sickle motifs appear.

    Redbaiter is also under my control, a useful way to make the so called Conservatives look like idiots. He plays along.

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  136. Captain Neurotic (203 comments) says:

    “This will come as a major surprise to most Kiwis but the rest of the world DOES NOT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT US!!!
    They are NOT going to get all emotional about us changing our flag and they do NOT hold a special place in their hearts because we are Kiwis.
    Most have no idea where we are.
    Most have no idea what we are about.
    Most have never heard of the All Blacks.
    Most cannot tell the difference between the Aussie Accent and ours (and nor should they)
    Most have never heard of John Key or Helen Clark.
    Most think that Ed Hillary was English and when told that he was not, could not care less.
    If I had the power to cure two things in this rapidly emerging third world nation it would be to get rid of our pathetic identity crisis and our rampant insecurity”

    Big Bruv – Thankyou! The only thing foreigners know about NZ is our haka and only because white backers in Europe get fucked up and pretend they’re indigenous to impress chics and act tough

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  137. gravedodger (1,575 comments) says:

    LEAVE MY BLOODY FLAG ALONE. I have Celtic and Scots ancestry and live under the Southern Cross!!!. My forebears left Scotland to escape poverty after the clearances and came to this place of opportunity, and they haven’t done too badly if what my family have achieved is any guide.
    As for the anecdote about Spud Bolger, it is most likely he didn’t even understand that the descendant of a convict had stolen our flag and just took the only one left. Patriots be buggered, my flag is just that, MY FLAG.
    Lets concentrate on important things: education reform, self reliance, National pride, support for all our citizens who excel in any which field, love for our country and a determination to do everything in our power to make it a better place for all.

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  138. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    The strongest statement in opposition to changing the flag is the string of 23 alternatives that the Herald offers on its website.

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  139. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Why Yvette?

    If enough ideas are thrown in the ring one day someone may come up with a design that hits the sweet spot. For most people anyway – except those people who don’t like change since last time things were changed (if it suits them).

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  140. Sam (421 comments) says:

    John Ansell – how many national flags feature white-bordered red stars on a blue background? None I’d wager. Those stars can be used for some pretty powerful branding if handled well enough – especially as they are motifs traditionally and readily associated with national flags.

    The alternatives presented on your site are pretty banal in comparison, and lack a whole lot of dignity, and while I’m not necessarily outright opposed to having a new flag, there should at least be an option that does its job better than what it replaces – currently there isn’t anything close. The graphic elements are visually inelegant and unsophisticated, the figurative meanings trite.

    Also, I was recently in the US, and gave a host a silver fern pin – they asked what feather it was…

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  141. John Ansell (832 comments) says:

    Redbaiter: I agree with you about many things, just as I disagree with Pete George about many things. For example, he and I completely disagree over climate change.

    In this debate, you tried to make out that I had ducked your challenge, when I had not. You then accuse me of pulling a Stalinist trick, when you were doing all the deceiving.

    You also view me as so naive politically that I would walk into a leftist trap by undermining one of the pillars of our British heritage, to whit the flag.

    It’s only natural that here on a conservative blog, plenty of people hold the same view.

    My view, for what it’s worth, is that we’re grown up enough to be able to keep those British institutions that serve us, and discard those that don’t.

    The British, after all, discarded us in the 70s. If they don’t see us as their child, why should we parade them as our parent?

    That said, I’d rather we made use of the Privy Council than trust the lesser, politically-appointed minds of the New Zealand Supreme Court.

    But we can have our own flag without changing anything else. Boring though it may sound to keep repeating, the Canadian experience shows that argument to be valid.

    Yes, rocking the boat about the flag will no doubt cause a flow-on effect. It will probably hasten the republican debate. But so what? The fact of a debate need not imply change.

    The Australians debated both and opted for the status quo. Why be afraid of democracy?

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  142. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    “Why Yvette?”

    I my concern would be that there IS something designed that is a worthwhile replacement. None of those offered by the Herald come anywhere near it [IMHO, and having fourteen letters I could put after my name in art qualifications]. The Government would have to put up some decent cash [a million at least] in a properly detailed professional design competition, with a professional panel [not including the Neanderthal twits who designed the new Supreme Court building] to select finalists for a referendum.

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  143. bearhunter (822 comments) says:

    “The Government would have to put up some decent cash [a million at least] in a properly detailed professional design competition, with a professional panel [not including the Neanderthal twits who designed the new Supreme Court building] to select finalists for a referendum.”

    Dear God, leave it to the NZ arts community to decide? What a fucking abortion that would be.

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  144. kowtow (8,936 comments) says:

    Kris K @102………that’s brother and long life to rich Christian tradition.

    I don’t buy the sports thing either.Many great sporting nations have separate symbols and emblems for sports.
    Eng….rose ,lions
    FRance are cocks
    Scot……thistle
    Ire…..shamrock
    Italy….reversing tank

    I don’t like Ansell’s branding idea either,too fickle and open to constant change and whimsy,like Air NZ trolley dolly gear.
    And no need to conflate nation and sport,that’s immature.

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  145. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Why be afraid of democracy?

    That’s a good question to ask quite a few here. No one is trying to force a change, no one knows if a change will happen, some just seem afraid of the question being asked, and seem afraid of people having a say in what might or might not happen.

    It is immature for someone who sees themselves as being on the right to expect everyone else “on the right” to agree on all the same things.

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  146. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    with a professional panel [not including the Neanderthal twits who designed the new Supreme Court building] to select finalists for a referendum.

    Very good point.

    If 1m was put up I might try harder – I have another idea….

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  147. Bevan (3,232 comments) says:


    That’s a good question to ask quite a few here. No one is trying to force a change, no one knows if a change will happen, some just seem afraid of the question being asked, and seem afraid of people having a say in what might or might not happen.

    What makes you think we don’t like the question? The majority so far in polling and on the Herald comments site say they don’t want to change the flag, that doesnt make us afraid of the question – we just answering it with a negative.

    We are not afraid of the question, you just don’t like our answer.

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  148. Bevan (3,232 comments) says:

    Why be afraid of democracy?

    Majority says no, is that enough Democracy for you? Or is it only acceptable when you get your way?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10624092

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  149. senzafine (457 comments) says:

    [blockquote]Whatever you might think you “believe”,m (in your poor brainwashed mental state) the fact is it does.[/blockquote]

    By Proxy, Yes it does. You’re right there.

    [blockquote]They do actually, and even if they did not, you would still need to explain why it is a good idea to move away from those ” links.” Who would you like to link up with? Where would you prefer your historical links to lie with? Red China? Russia?[/blockquote]

    Bullshit. Plain and simple. Our historical links are just that, Historical. It has nothing to do with ‘linking’ with any nation whatsoever, and everything to do with establishing an identity that is unmistakably NZ. And whether you like it or not, the time is coming when Colonial NZ does not fit that bill.

    [blockquote]It does not, and I do not like.[/blockquote]

    I do not like either, but the fact remains that this is how many kiwis comparatively view the two flags.

    [blockquote]It doesn’t. This claim is the ranting of a disturbed mind. You should see a shrink and tell him about your inferiority complex.[/blockquote]

    My shrink said I’m fine, however she was probably a product of the Helen Clark government and thus part of the great communist conspiriacy.

    [blockquote]They aren’t actually. They’re quite significant.[/blockquote]

    I suppose your factually correct in this. I agree that the British Blue Ensign is indeed significant, however personally I believe its relevance to modern day NZ is moot.

    [blockquote]They are not actually., and that you believe they are is yet another indication of some kind of severe mental disarray.[/blockquote]
    I Can Qualify my statement. Can you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_colours

    [blockquote]Because it was designed with different colours by people who far exceed your own grasp on rationale, history and style.[/blockquote]

    Please see above.

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  150. big bruv (14,217 comments) says:

    Bevan

    “Majority says no, is that enough Democracy for you? Or is it only acceptable when you get your way?”

    Dead right Bevan, so many here claim to dislike the left wing “we know better than you” mindset yet they are happy to take the same approach when it comes to things they want to push onto the rest of us.

    The flag, Easter trading hours and becoming a Republic are just a few of them.

    The majority of Kiwis do NOT want these things to change, yet so many here are arrogant enough (or honest enough) to say that they do not care how others feel, they are going to push for change because that is what they personally believe in.

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  151. kowtow (8,936 comments) says:

    Ansell and others keep pushing the Canada thing.Various reasons ,no doubt they like the flora aspect,so they have leaf we have fern. They changed theirs ,we can change ours ,very original,…not.
    I like Canada and Canadians,we have alot in common. Let’s leave it there for the moment.

    There are alot of differences between Canada and NZ.
    Canada is a federation and alot of folk there both “English and “French” are not very comfortable about it.Not to mention the huge no. of immigrants and Indians who see themselves apart anyway.The French werent “included” in the Union flag.

    In the provinces ,which have their own govts,like Ozzie,they have provincial flags which are proudly and prominently flown.

    The Quebeckers have their fleur de lis,no questioning where their loyalties and history lie.

    Canada didnt have a national flag as such,we do ,so there’s no need to push for a new one.

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  152. senzafine (457 comments) says:

    Whatever you might think you “believe”,m (in your poor brainwashed mental state) the fact is it does.

    By Proxy, Yes it does. You’re right there.

    They do actually, and even if they did not, you would still need to explain why it is a good idea to move away from those ” links.” Who would you like to link up with? Where would you prefer your historical links to lie with? Red China? Russia?

    Bullshit. Plain and simple. Our historical links are just that, Historical. It has nothing to do with ‘linking’ with any nation whatsoever, and everything to do with establishing an identity that is unmistakably NZ. And whether you like it or not, the time is coming when Colonial NZ does not fit that bill.

    It does not, and I do not like.

    I do not like either, but the fact remains that this is how many kiwis comparatively view the two flags.

    It doesn’t. This claim is the ranting of a disturbed mind. You should see a shrink and tell him about your inferiority complex.

    My shrink said I’m fine, however she was probably a product of the Helen Clark government and thus part of the great communist conspiriacy.

    They aren’t actually. They’re quite significant.

    I suppose your factually correct in this. I agree that the British Blue Ensign is indeed significant, however personally I believe its relevance to modern day NZ is moot.

    They are not actually., and that you believe they are is yet another indication of some kind of severe mental disarray.

    I Can Qualify my statement. Can you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_colours

    Because it was designed with different colours by people who far exceed your own grasp on rationale, history and style.

    Please see above.

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  153. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Sod the Maoris and sod the Pakehas.
    That is the old divisive past.
    We are a nation of different cultures a multicultural entity that is dynamic and changing.
    Do I want my flag to represent cannibals and murderers or thieves and liars.
    No!
    I want it to represent all of us.

    Let’s remember without a few good Christian men we would have had no Treaty of Waitangi, it is a historical document to me and should be left in Te Papa with the other artifacts, it is not a living document except in the eyes of lefties and activists, who wish to use it for gain.

    By all means let’s have a discussion on a new flag representing all of us but, along with the discussion must go the one about a constitution where all are equal without favour and the form of parliament so that we are protect from liars and cheats who seek office as they will and do.

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  154. excusesofpuppets (132 comments) says:

    Yes. This is the most important issue. ever. Seriously. This needs to be sorted out now. I am so pleased that a national newspaper has started a tabloid ‘campaign’ on this issue. Because it needs to be sorted now. I am a young person and all my young person friends do nothing but chatter on about how much we want the flag to change. No stop. Flag talk. At the moment, I just don’t feel like a New Zealander. Really. All because of our flag. And I am a young person. Let me emphasise my youth once more. Youth, Life, Beautiful. I’m all for it.

    Flag needs to….Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

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  155. Akaroa (613 comments) says:

    Ah well, nobody will ever read anything this far down the pile, but to me the prime reason not to go to a ‘Silver Fern’ design is that to 99% of the World’s population outside NZ that fern looks like a white feather. A white feather aka the universal sign of cowardice!

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  156. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    ” In this debate, you tried to make out that I had ducked your challenge, when I had not.”

    No I did not John. I merely remarked that you were unable to answer the question, and it is still my opinion that you failed miserably in that regard and continue to fail. You have yet to come up with an objective reason for changing the flag.

    ” You then accuse me of pulling a Stalinist trick, when you were doing all the deceiving.”

    It is a Stalinist/ leftist trick to level unsubstantiated allegations of lying at someone who opposes them politically. The lying allegations then become the prime point of discussion, and the real issue goes on the back burner. They use this strategy,and others very similar, all the time. I never meant to imply that you had failed to respond and it is not what I said. Ever. Your allegations of lying are made on an extremely weak base and frankly it surprises me very much that you would stoop to this.

    If you are going to campaign for a flag change John, you perhaps need to realise that you will be stepping very heavily on the toes of people who would normally be your political allies, and gaining favour with those you would normally not want on your side.

    Its not by any means an easy thing you have taken on my friend. You are going to make many enemies with this crusade. You are going to provoke some strong passions, and in reality, the debate has only just started. I think its a bit early for you to be going in this hard.

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  157. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    It is a Stalinist/ leftist trick to level unsubstantiated allegations of lying at someone who opposes them politically.

    Funny, that’s straight out of your playbook RedVladimir.

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  158. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    ” Boring though it may sound to keep repeating, the Canadian experience shows that argument to be valid. ”

    It shows nothing of the sort. The previous Canadian flag had nothing for the French. To say the NZ situation is analogous with Canada is just completely wrong.

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  159. Redbaiter (11,880 comments) says:

    ” Funny, that’s straight out of your playbook RedVladimir.”

    I’m talking about civilised, cultured, educated and refined citizens Pete, not leftists.

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  160. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    I read it Akaroa! Never diminish your contribution even if it is a bit late.

    The early bird may get the worm but the latecomer often gets the five course meals at knockdown prices.

    Such is capitalism and where better to experience it than at the founding capitalist blog of this benighted little outpost of civillisation.

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  161. Graeme Edgeler (2,972 comments) says:

    The French werent “included” in the Union flag.

    The Canadian flag with the Union flag in the first quarter incorporated the shield of the Canadian coat of arms on the fly, which incorporates three fleurs-de-lis, a symbol of France.

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  162. Viking2 (11,672 comments) says:

    Or we could just do the John Key thing. Have two or three flags and just pick the one that suits on the day. So will we have Hone H’s flag on Saturday or will we have Hone John’s flag on Saturday. or perhaps both, or half of each or maybe neither?

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  163. Inky_the_Red (764 comments) says:

    Why not have no flag.

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  164. Bevan (3,232 comments) says:

    Why not have no flag.

    Because New Zealand’s middle name is not Prince.

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  165. adam2314 (361 comments) says:

    The Union Jack is a flag flown on the Jackstay of one of HRH ships of the Royal Navy.

    The one on our flag is the Union Flag.

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  166. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    I suspect that for the next election John and Hone may merge their respective parties into a new party called the “Morytory party and a la the Greens go for co-leadership by Jone/Hone.

    Needless to say the respective flags could then be merged into the “New Rangitirotounghadahonkie” ensign.

    I suspect that Jone would be “relaxed” about this and Hone would have patented the new flags design so he could screw the mofo’s for royalty payments every time it was flown.

    This would enable him to meet the monthly asylum bills for his poor old mum.

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  167. Robert Black (423 comments) says:

    I agree the flag needs to be changed.

    It is ridiculously similar and inferior to the Aussie one, which when you think of it pretty much sums up the country.

    But surely any new flag should be green and black with the silver fern on it?

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  168. MT_Tinman (3,315 comments) says:

    big bruv (5350) Says:
    February 4th, 2010 at 2:54 pm

    Bevan

    “Majority says no, is that enough Democracy for you? Or is it only acceptable when you get your way?”

    Dead right Bevan, so many here claim to dislike the left wing “we know better than you” mindset yet they are happy to take the same approach when it comes to things they want to push onto the rest of us.

    The flag, Easter trading hours and becoming a Republic are just a few of them.

    The majority of Kiwis do NOT want these things to change, yet so many here are arrogant enough (or honest enough) to say that they do not care how others feel, they are going to push for change because that is what they personally believe in.

    And that, Big Bruv, is exactly how it should be.

    The democratic process in action

    It matters not whether the current majority want change, prefer the status quo or simply don’t care, a small minority pushing that change forces decisions from the others.

    What I object to, strenuously, are those who refuse to accept debate on change, refuse to consider any argument that does not suit their own opinion and, of course, communists like Red who demand that all people must do exactly what they (the communists) want, think exactly how they “think” and abuse anyone who does not do so.

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  169. Bevan (3,232 comments) says:

    agree the flag needs to be changed.

    It is ridiculously similar and inferior to the Aussie one, which when you think of it pretty much sums up the country.

    But surely any new flag should be green and black with the silver fern on it?

    If that is your only objection, then when the Aussies change theirs, will you quit your belly aching?

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  170. transmogrifier (523 comments) says:

    I’ve got nothing against the flag really, it’s nice enough. We’re never going to have a flag everyone loves (we are, after all, the Land of the Long, Loud Moan), so at least this one has the benefit of history on its side.

    Wish we had a better national anthem, though. The music was composed by a teacher, for God’s sake…that should be enough to condemn it around these parts!

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  171. Bevan (3,232 comments) says:

    Wish we had a better national anthem, though. The music was composed by a teacher, for God’s sake…that should be enough to condemn it around these parts!

    I suggest we change it to the school yard version..

    “God of nations smell my feet….”

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  172. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    From the horses mouth: Jone/Hone says better things to do than sort out new flag (Bill looks like he is not so sure).

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10624128

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  173. Tauhei Notts (1,687 comments) says:

    Guard Pacific’s Triple Star
    Fletch asked at 9.58 a.m. what that was all about. Try this for an answer.
    Our national anthem was composed by a Dunedin gentleman named Thomas Bracken who spent a lot of his time drinking his local brew. It is taken from the trade mark of that beer.
    If you don’t believe me, get a stubbie of Speights gold and look at the label.
    Well, it’s a good story anyhow.

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  174. wikiriwhis business (4,192 comments) says:

    No point getting a new flag when we’re going to become part of Australia anyway.

    Just another beaureaucratic excuse to waste money and have nothing for real issues.

    And I wouldn’t listen to Jonathan irrelevant Hunt. He’s wined and dined himself too much to have anything of real example to say.

    Anyway, I just heard the Queen has started paying taxes. Hope that shuts a lot of whinging mouths.

    Long live the Queen. Long live the monarchy.

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  175. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    Triple star might have something to do with North South and Stewart islands.

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  176. mikeysmokes (172 comments) says:

    Not broken why waste time, money etc trying to fix it

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  177. Gunner (1 comment) says:

    To me it was good enough to fight for what the NZ Ensign represents and one of those things is the right of people to express their opinions about changing it. It’s about many things, not least of which are heritage, independence and two races as one people standing firm together in times of safety and danger. Time was when Kiwis knew who they were as a people and proud of their nationsl flag, but the events of the 1960s, accelerated by those of the 1970s changed that. Today we don’t seem to know who the hell we are, where we are, or where we want to go.

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  178. Brian Marshall (205 comments) says:

    Sir Brian is wrong.
    It’s not what other people around the world think about our flag, it’s what we think about our flag, and I for one, love it.

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  179. John Ansell (832 comments) says:

    Redbaiter said: “If you are going to campaign for a flag change John, you perhaps need to realise that you will be stepping very heavily on the toes of people who would normally be your political allies, and gaining favour with those you would normally not want on your side.”

    I’m well aware of that. If I cared about political alliances, I’d have clung to the National Party and would probably now be doing very well on the proceeds of government advertising projects.

    If my normal allies are worth having, they’ll understand that in a democracy people are entitled to take whatever stance they like about whatever issue they like. My views are normally right-wing, but in this case have more in common with the left. I also disagree with conservatives for abandoning their critical faculty when it comes to religion. But so what?

    Redbaiter: “You are going to make many enemies with this crusade. You are going to provoke some strong passions, and in reality, the debate has only just started. I think its a bit early for you to be going in this hard.”

    I realise that too. The Canadian flag designer got death threats. Anyway I’m not going to be crusading, just putting up blog posts and commenting when I feel like it.

    I freely admit that my own designs have yet to capture the public’s imagination (certainly not here anyway) but I hope somebody’s fern-based design will.

    If the public don’t want to change the flag, that’s their democratic right. But I think they might do when the right contender comes along.

    Remember: a short time ago, the public supported the man-made global warming campaign. Now that (via the blogosphere)the sceptics’ views have broken through the media blockade, I doubt whether they do.

    The same thing should happen in time with the flag, especially with the country’s largest paper onside.

    Redbaiter: “The previous Canadian flag had nothing for the French. To say the NZ situation is analogous with Canada is just completely wrong.”

    Well our flag doesn’t have anything for the French either, so by your logic it’s perfectly analagous!

    But you’re wrong about that anyway. France/Quebec was represented in the old Canadian shield, along with England, Ireland and Scotland.

    Second, New Zealand is officially bicultural. So is Canada. Only when it comes to the flag, our non-British culture is even less well-catered-for than Canada’s.

    Now I’m not proposing that our flag should have Maori symbolism, but to be fair neither should it have British. It should have a pan-New Zealand symbol. And in the view of many the best of those happens, as in Canada, to be a leaf.

    Seems pretty analagous to me. No doubt you’ll find some reason why it’s not, in which case you might care to provide a reasoned response rather than another high-handed put down.

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  180. Crusader (327 comments) says:

    I would simply remove the Union Jack, and enlarge the southern cross and place it lying on its side to take up the whole flag. A blue background with 4 red stars on it. It would stand out and be instantly recognisable. A simple design that anyone can sketch, not some flowery piece of art work. Who can sketch the Kyle Lockwood flag in a hurry? Most of the proposed flag designs are too fancy, they look like corporate logos.

    Stars are timeless and (pun intended) universal. No race issues in the heavens. Both Maori waka and European explorers used the stars for navigation. The southern cross belongs more to NZ than Australia since we are further south and the constellation is always visible in our skies, whereas for half of Australia for half of the year the cross is unseen. We should not give up the southern cross. It’s ours.

    Removing the union jack from our flag should have been done as soon as the UK joined the EEC. We are a generation or more after they cut the ties of empire. We just need to recognise it and move on.

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  181. adam2314 (361 comments) says:

    Unfortunately in NZ the leaf would be more of the ” Electric Puha ” type than the Canadian Maple leaf..

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  182. adam2314 (361 comments) says:

    Crusader …

    We do not have the Union Jack on our flag..

    It is a ” Union Flag “.. Something that is seriously missing in this nation..

    Not that the Brits have it either :-))

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  183. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,760 comments) says:

    Slow news day in New Zealand?

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  184. John Ansell (832 comments) says:

    Yes.

    But I didn’t mention the US flag. I was talking about the Canadian flag. (The US and Canada are separate countries, by the way.)

    Canada, unlike the US, is not one of the great powers. Yet its flag is widely regarded as the world’s best.

    I think that must have something to do with the design, don’t you?

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  185. big bruv (14,217 comments) says:

    “Canada, unlike the US, is not one of the great powers. Yet its flag is widely regarded as the world’s best.”

    By whom?

    To me it is nothing more than the Canadian flag, I do not get emotional about it, I do not think “wish ours was that good” it is just a piece of cloth that means nothing to anybody who is not Canadian.

    We Kiwis really do take ourselves far too seriously at times.

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  186. John Ansell (832 comments) says:

    Whenever people are asked which is their favourite national flag (apart from their own), Canada’s comes out top.

    Try it.

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