Well done Pastor Andrew Stock
The Herald reports:
Destiny Church ministers and leaders are heading to its Brisbane branch after more than half the congregation – including its pastor – walked out.
Bishop Brian Tamaki, who founded the church in New Zealand in 1998, is expected to be among those heading to Australia this week after the resignation of Pastor Andrew Stock.
Members of the Destiny Church in Brisbane, who were at Sunday’s service, contacted the Herald yesterday.
It is believed Pastor Stock – who has been at the Brisbane branch pulpit for about three years – withdrew from his role because a newly introduced covenant went against his beliefs, a member said.
Standing up for your beliefs is to be praised.
The member said the covenant told members to “give it heaps” as they worked towards a $3 million project which included building a $1.3 million budget to go towards putting Bishop Tamaki on TVNZ every morning, from Monday to Friday.
The covenant also encouraged members to go without coffee, takeaways and Sky TV for up to seven months to help give more in their church tithes.
All so Archbishop Tamaki can get even richer. I bet you he won’t be going without coffee.
The church member who contacted the Herald said many in the congregation felt the covenant was going against the Gospel.
“It was a money-making scheme. All the people who make covenant with Bishop Tamaki have to buy a $300 ring.
“You might think I’m stupid for going into the church in the first place. But I [only] found out it was a cult after I went in.”
Sadly, for many it is too late by then.
The member said it was widely known that all Destiny Church pastors had to sign a contract.
In that contract, it said if they were to withdraw as a pastor they were forbidden to pastor at any other church for two years and their new church could not be less than 50km from a Destiny Church.
Never heard of God having restraint of trade clauses for his servants before.
March 2nd, 2010 at 10:55 am
Standing up for your beliefs is not always to be praised.
Depends on your beliefs.
March 2nd, 2010 at 10:59 am
“Never heard of God having restraint of trade clauses for his servants before.”
HAHAHAHAHA thats some funny shit.
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:00 am
So it’s not the homophobia and divisiveness that he’s upset about…?
Still, good for Stock. What a scam.
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:05 am
The covenant and ring thing was quite a while ago; what took so long? Has the gold paint just started wearing off the ring?
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:07 am
I look forward to seeing Destiny try to enforce that restraint of trade clause through the court. That legal argument should be worth hearing.
I would also like to see the Charities Commission have a close look at Destiny and similar organisations. If they are run as commercial businesses – especially in the way they remunerate their leaders/proprietors – then they should be subject to all other commercial regulation; especially tax! I cannot quite reconcile how someone can become wealthy running a charity (with all the tax beneifits that brings) – and the operation still be considered a charity.
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:09 am
I wonder if the contract tries to protect the “God” brandname. Couldn’t they just use another God?
What does “as a pastor” mean? I presume it covers preaching, but does it also include recruiting and fundraising?
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:11 am
How many Islamic countries have you visited again? Try Saudi Arabia for starters.
All churches have these spats. That is why there are so many Christian sects. Bloody splitters.
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:21 am
I accept a lot of what Bishop Tamaki says. But hes turned the focus of his mission away from God but onto himself hence it is becoming a cult like church
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:31 am
“You might think I’m stupid for going into the church in the first place. But I [only] found out it was a cult after I went in.”
Funny, I’ve heard the same thing said about the NZ Libertarianz.
What a shame the same kind of walkout can’t occur there.
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:39 am
^^^ Actual LOL.
I like something baiter said, I’d better go buy a lotto ticket…
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:40 am
Never heard of God having restraint of trade clauses for his servants before.
He doesn’t.
He calls and He sends.
That’s why the whole Churchianity thing is so obscene with buildings owned and controlled by the bishops.
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:41 am
I certainly applaud Andrew Stock for having the guts to stand up to the Tamaki machine. I wonder how long it will be before the security guys turn up on his doorstep.
Tamaki may have started out as a paster with sincere intentions, but the love of the high life has got in the way. I’ve heard a few war stories from former and current Destiny churchers, and it’s church Jim, but not as you know it! The website cults.co.nz has Destiny on “danger” alert, and says:
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:44 am
Destiny Church – proving that there is something more bat shit crazy than Scientology.
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:51 am
What’s the difference between a cult and Christianity? There’s a very large bit on the middle of that venn diagram.
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:51 am
@ wreck LOL was going to post EXACTLY the same thing
March 2nd, 2010 at 11:59 am
“Never heard of God having restraint of trade clauses for his servants before.”
Very apt and well put.
Tamaki, with his faux charitable status is one of the biggest bludgers in this country, he should be getting exposed in the headlines along with the WINZ sponsored swimming pool madness.
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Man is this godless field day or what? DPF if you must continue to blog on religious topics something positive occasionally would be nice.
Once again Brian Tamaki and the destiny church do more for the poor people of South Auckland then everybody on this blog will ever do in their entire life. The numbers of people who give testimony to being turned from a life of drugs and crime and violence and the difference that destiny church is made in their lives are huge.
That Tamaki asks for $3 million for a new church building and to put his program back on to TV — what is wrong with that? It is a big enterprise. The Anglican Church gathers huge amounts of money to put up for example the Wellington Cathedral. Who moans about that?
That churches split is sadly not actually news. Unfortunately that happens a lot.
But again you who do nothing for anybody, what right have you to smear Brian Tamaki and the destiny church that do huge amounts for multitudes of people? And what do the internal politics of that church have to do with you anyway?
My theory is this — Brian Tamaki shatters the comfortable veneer of godlessness that is our public square at the moment. Atheists — like many on this blog — do not want the return of Christianity to what remains of our civilisation. It is really about who controls the public square. And the attempt by the godless to smear and exclude all those who might speak of God.
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:19 pm
Andrew Stock was heard to say; Enough is enough……
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:21 pm
Scott
Would Jesus have driven a BMW ?
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:24 pm
Whose blog are you free to post on?
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:27 pm
If Jesus had been any good as a cerpenter he never would have gone into politics.
Tamaki should heed that warning himself. Too late is what i’m thinking and we may well be looking at his tipping point.
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:32 pm
God ™ of Tamaki Enterprises, © 2010. All rights reserved.
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:32 pm
@ burt (12.19pm) – That’s gold mate, pure gold
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:32 pm
Murray,
If Jesus had been a good carpenter he would have been able to pull out those nails. (too soon?)
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:34 pm
The difference between a cult and a religion is that after a few thousand years the bullshit doesn’t smell anymore.
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:40 pm
Don’t hold back, Michael
Age also confers a respectability which might not otherwise be justified. An appeal to authority fallacy.
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:43 pm
Malcolm,
Age also confers a respectability which might not otherwise be justified.
Is that not what I said?
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:43 pm
You have to wonder how Tamaki has managed to con so many people for so long. Obviously, there must be an endless source of morons, feeble-minded, and gullible people in New Zealand and Australia.
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:43 pm
Incidently a 2 year restraint of trade on an employee (I’m assuming the pastor was an employee) is almost certainly not enforceable in Australia.
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:44 pm
Tamaki’s a shepherd all right. It’s just that instead of tending to his flock, he’s fleecing them instead.
“Brian Tamaki and the destiny church do more for the poor people of South Auckland then everybody on this blog will ever do in their entire life.”
Which is why they remain poor.
“The numbers of people who give testimony to being turned from a life of drugs and crime and violence and the difference that destiny church is made in their lives are huge.”
Not making a big difference to the crime stats, though is it? Perhaps if more of the poor gave more of their money for the glorification of Brian then crime would be magicked off the streets of South Auckland, Scott?
To steal a quote about another Brian, he’s not the Messiah, he’s a very naughty boy…
March 2nd, 2010 at 12:54 pm
Sorry Michael, I was being facetious when I said “don’t hold back” and then I basically repeated what you’d said, for some reason.
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:05 pm
Good point. I think he was clever enough to start with a well-established and proven con, and then just put his own twist on it.
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:18 pm
Scott – there is nothing wrong with what you say except that Tamaki is not speaking of God to the ‘sinners’ (traditional purpose of a preacher) he speaks of himself. God, Jesus Christ, The Gospel, Salvation are all side lines as far as he is concerned, unfortuantely his main thrust is that the members of Destiny church are there for one purpose only to keep him in the lifestyle to which he has become accustomed.
He is a fraud. I heard him say in 2004-05 that he prophesied that the Destiny party was going to be in parliament in 2005 or 08 (can’t remember which) where is it now? Doesn’t exist. He is a fraud who is heading for a big fall.
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:37 pm
Can’t agree jims. I believe that Brian Tamaki believes in what he says and that he believes he is doing God’s work. So I don’t think he is a deliberate fraud. You might say he is deceived but that is a different argument.
Brian gets a lot of bad press which in my view is a shame. If any reporter would like to honestly follow him around and talk to his congregation I think you would find many, many testimonies of the good that he has done in people’s lives.
That he is raising millions of dollars for a big church building and for his TV program, again I say so what? It’s a big undertaking to build a new church which in today’s prices does cost millions of dollars. Running a TV program outreach is not cheap.
People treat Brian Tamaki as if he is some sort of criminal. Let’s be clear — people voluntarily join his church and voluntarily give their money. He has not been convicted or charged with any fraudulent activity and/or any criminal activity. Personally I think people should lay off Brian Tamaki — particularly the media who seem obsessed by him.
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:43 pm
Standing up for your beliefs is to be praised.
Only in certain cases, right DPF? You weren’t so quick to defend a certain Brazilian archbishop for standing up for his beliefs.
[DPF: He was not standing up to authority. He was authority imposing his beliefs on a doctor who saved a young girl's life]
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:57 pm
Once again Brian Tamaki and the destiny church do more for the poor people of South Auckland then everybody on this blog will ever do in their entire life.
And I’ve probably done more for the poor strippers of Auckland than Grand Wazoo Brian Tamaki has ever done…
Doesnt detract from the fact that while those poor people continue to struggle the false idol lives in luxury.
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:57 pm
“Let’s be clear — people voluntarily join his church and voluntarily give their money.”
Nobody would argue with that. As said before, it shows there must be quite a number of people willing to “donate” money (being coerced into is another way of putting it) in the hope of eternal life and salvation. If that’s what they want, let them fool themselves by doing it. For me it’s all a con, a Tamaki a con-man.
Life is now and here, to be enjoyed to the full. Promises of a better after life are akin to selling unattainable fantasies and illusions.
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:58 pm
“It’s a big undertaking to build a new church which in today’s prices does cost millions of dollars.”
No, it doesnt. Worshipping your god is free. Spreading the word of god is free. It is actually called FREE SPEECH, but maybe not for that reason.
Building churches in which to meet and worship is good. But the difference between building a church costing $200k and one costing $3mil is absolutely zero when it comes to satisfying those two needs. A grand church here on earth does not (and has never) been about the glorification of god, and has everything (and always has) to do with the glorification of those who claim to speak for god.
Tamaki is a crook and a megalomaniac. His teachings go completely against key tenets of the bible, and the fact that he hides behind it in his defense is reprehensible. He will be found out and those that followed him will probably burn in hell for their blasphemy.
And all the homos, muslims, and atheists will be in heaven with the one true loving god, feeling sorry for the intellectually disadvantaged people who damned themselves by following such an obvious fraud.
March 2nd, 2010 at 1:59 pm
Scott, Brian Tamaki may well believe what he says. That defines the difference between a cult and a con.
March 2nd, 2010 at 2:00 pm
Running a TV program outreach …
Spare me the bullshit – all Brian Tamaki wants the TV time for is to display his own vanity.
Let’s be clear — people voluntarily join his church and voluntarily give their money.
And people voluntarily followed Jim Jones.
March 2nd, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Tamaki is a crook and a megalomaniac. His teachings go completely against key tenets of the bible, and the fact that he hides behind it in his defense is reprehensible. He will be found out and those that followed him will probably burn in hell for their blasphemy.
Kimble,
I’m no Tamaki apologist, but can you please list, for the sake of the class, which of his teachings go completely against key tenets of the Bible.
A grand church here on earth does not (and has never) been about the glorification of god, and has everything (and always has) to do with the glorification of those who claim to speak for god.
Funny, there seem to be several passages in the Bible that would support the building of fine houses of prayer/worship and the use of the best possible materials. Or does that go against key tenets of the Bible as well?
March 2nd, 2010 at 2:30 pm
Scribe
You confuse Destiny Inc with God™
Twisting the arms of the poor, the unemployed to pay for motorbikes/yachts/trips/jewelery/homes… something about camels and eyes of needles. Anyway which Bible do you mean, there are SO many.
March 2nd, 2010 at 2:32 pm
There’s all kinds of ways to volunteer… some people consider duress is volunteering. You can psychologically/emotionally or culturally hold a gun to someones head… it may not be against the law but would God™ approve?
March 2nd, 2010 at 2:33 pm
Meanwhile, according to the charities commission website many of the branches of Destiny are now several months overdue in filing their annual returns.
March 2nd, 2010 at 2:33 pm
Scott, surely a man who mentions himself 26 times in a single speech and only refers to Jesus once has at best a Messiah complex”, at worst?
I’m not sure even Jesus mentioned himself as much as Brian mentions himself.
I dont presume to know what Brian T knows. He may have got carried away with his own publicity and believes every word, or he saw an opportunity for Destiny Inc and forgot God™.
March 2nd, 2010 at 3:53 pm
As people in Destiny what happens when they do not tithe. As them what happens when they speak out against the lavish lifestyle that is Brian Tamaki
3 million can feed an awful lot of people.
Build some houses
pay for some medical help
The devastation caused by Tamaki and his church is huge. Lifes that are screwed up for ever.
I am not a christian, but the main stream churches and even some of the Pentecostals are
concerned and cares for “their flock” Destiny is about controlling and harvesting the sheep.
March 2nd, 2010 at 4:17 pm
I have always harboured reservations about the Destiny “church” and its authenticity in relation to Christian doctrine and I have finally been proven correct.
Leaders of this organization are wolves in sheep skin and this is evident by the unorthodoxy that continues to be administered within the church, most notably concerning tithes.
Most Christians know that scripture makes it quite clear that such an income deduction shall not exceed the 10 percent mark, churches that encourage tithes beyond this point clearly have self-interest and greed at heart, especially if this is done in a forceful manner or people are told that “more blessings” will come about by giving more in tithes and going without certain necessities to provide that.
Mat 24:11 “And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.”
Mat 24:24 “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
This so called “church” has been revealed for what it really is: a sad excuse for the pursuit of greed and materialism.
March 2nd, 2010 at 6:04 pm
Right down through the ages any preacher of righteousness that has gone against the culture of the day has suffered huge persecution. I have heard of the great work Destiny has done in South Auckland and believe that Tamaki has had an avalanche of media go against him. A lot of what has been printed I know has been false and a beat up. I don’t know how I would handle having that sort of stuff fired relentless at me.
Sure he upsets a lot of people, but a good preacher often will.
Only time will tell if Tamaki goes down as a biblical hero as many others who fought similar battles did after they died. Do you not like him or what he proclaims?
March 2nd, 2010 at 6:54 pm
There’s debate over whether Tamaki is genuine?
You. Must. Be. Joking.
March 2nd, 2010 at 7:38 pm
Scribe lets start with not worshipping idols and go from there.
“You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people, and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. But among you it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be the slave of everyone else. For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Mark 10:42-45)
Tamaki seems to think a servants place is to live like a king. And to TAX others.
“For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who
humbles himself will be exalted.”
“ she replies. ”He’s the one who made it possible to have direct contact with God. We don’t need a middle man.”
March 2nd, 2010 at 8:11 pm
It has been obvious to me for some time now that he was a con at best, at worst a cult.
The televangelist with his flashy suit and slicked hair, harley davidson and mansion house.
10% tithe requirement of all churchgoers including those on benefits, strong arm tactics and emotional blackmail, splitting families when some refused to continue to go. The raising up of “Bishop” Brian above all others. It’s all about CONTROL.
The false messiah references are apt. To anyone outside it is obvious this is not a free and open community of followers of Jesus’ teachings, meeting together to share the journey of life with common beliefs in a loving saving God.
The reason for most church splits historically is over the structure of the church, its politics, power and corruption, how it seeks to control peoples lives. This is why the Anglicans and Lutherans, and Orthodox eastern churches split from Rome, why the Presbyterians and Methodists split from the Anglicans (removal of Bishops and church hierarchy). Otherwise most of their core beliefs are the same – a few less biblically foundered doctrines in the older churches (e.g. Mary’s perpetual virginity and arguably her deification in the Roman Catholic church is completely at odds with the views of most reformed churches). So yeah, this split is nothing new.
March 2nd, 2010 at 8:22 pm
GJ – have you actually heard Tamaki preach? Or are you perhaps a Destiny member who is defending The Bishop as part of your covenant to him?
March 2nd, 2010 at 9:15 pm
Presumably the mechanics of how the building (church) is built will be the same as other real estate of Destiny Church… I don’t know what that is but maybe someone can tell me…
Who owns the land and building/s. I’m pretty certain that it isn’t Brian Tamaki, his wife or in fact any natural person. A quick search has revealed:
Companies Office (www.companies.govt.nz, search by director:
Brian Raymond TAMAKI and Hannah Radclavina TAMAKI are two of the directors of TAMAKI PRODUCTIONS LIMITED. The registered office of this company is
C/- Jenny Marshall
18 Allright Place
Mt Wellington
Auckland
Destiny church website (www.destinychurch.org.nz) has the Auckland church located at
18 Allright Place
Mt Wellington
Auckland
How bizarre that a church and a company have the same address! Didn’t Jesus chase the moneylenders from the place of worship? Matthew 21:12 is basically about Jesus’ dissatisfaction with what should have been a house of prayer being used to turn a profit.
Off to the Auckland Regional Council ratings database which tells me that the capital value of 18 Allright Place as $4,880,000. WOW!
Back to the companies office to discover that TAMAKI PRODUCTIONS LIMITED is a shareholder in GOSHEN STUDIOS LIMITED and TAMAKI PUBLICATIONS LIMITED. Gosh what a lot of business activity, all coming back to a church….
I don’t have access to Land Transfer records but I’d imagine that 18 Allright Place is owned by either a company or trust, and that the owners/directors/shareholders of the company or beneficiaries of the trust are Tamaki’s. Not the church congregation.
To be fair the Catholic Church also has vast estates. However the last time I went to a catholic service, I wasn’t bombarded with a message that read “give [it] heaps” with the brackets clearly intended to be ignored…
March 2nd, 2010 at 9:35 pm
Bullit. Great movie.
March 2nd, 2010 at 9:58 pm
Mind you, Mark Bryers is convicted of defrauding over $80 million and is pretty well guaranteed not to go to jail. Seems NZ really is a scammers paradise.
March 2nd, 2010 at 9:59 pm
“Bullit” multiple times.
March 3rd, 2010 at 8:16 am
I’m assuming Scott wears his covenant ring with deluded pride. What a sad bastard.
March 3rd, 2010 at 8:37 am
“I have heard of the great work Destiny has done in South Auckland…”
So have I GJ, mostly from Brian Tamaki or one of his cheerleaders. Can you give me some concrete examples of this good work?
March 3rd, 2010 at 9:04 am
“I’m assuming Scott wears his covenant ring with deluded pride. What a sad bastard.”
Replying to your recent abusive comment Megatron. For your information I am not a member of destiny church, nor have ever been.
March 3rd, 2010 at 10:55 am
Inventory: No I am certainly NOT a Destiny member and to my knowledge they do not even have a church in the locality where I live.
Bearhunter: Through other social work that I am involved with I come across a number of people that have strong gang connections. It is from these people that I have heard many many reports of families being helped back together, kids husbands etc coming out of gangs and turning into better citizens.
The results of their work in this area alone is extremely hard to argue with.
In regards a cult. Normally a common factor found amongst cults is sexual immorality. To my knowledge Destiny has never faced an accusation in this area.
March 3rd, 2010 at 12:43 pm
@GJ
So, a friend of a friend left a gang and joined an alleged cult? That is hardly a concreted example.
Destiny hasn’t faced accusations of sexual immorality, but then neither did Jim Jones, did he?
You are providing a really weak defense of the church. Please try harder.
March 3rd, 2010 at 1:29 pm
ephemera: No that is not what I said and neither am I defending the church. What I am saying is that I have met many people through associates of mine whose lives have been totally transformed by their association with Destiny Church.
I do however believe that for whatever reason Destiny has suffered from a huge beat up by the NZ media much of which I feel is unjustified.
Take for example that march in Wellington many years ago that was attended by a multitude of churches. The enough is enough rally. A large number of NZ’s would agree with what they were marching against, yet this was tagged solely a Destiny march. Why was that if it was not to give them another beat up?
They certainly stand upon their Christian values and for that I will give them credit.
March 3rd, 2010 at 2:29 pm
“Their results in this area alone are hard to argue with”
“A common factor found amongst cults…”
These are statements in defense of Destiny Church. You defined destiny as not a cult, and said their results are hard to argue with.
Which results? Anecdotal ones? If you are saying you have met many people who have been transformed by their association with the church, please let us know the criteria by which you judged the church to the positive factor in these people’s lives.
March 4th, 2010 at 3:20 pm
Talking about all the “good” Density Church does is like praising Hitler for inventing motorways, fanta and the Volkswagen. And hey, at least Mussolini made the trains run on time…
March 18th, 2010 at 4:29 pm
Amen! Shame it was not all the congregation that could see through Mr Tamaki’s cult.