So what were they marching against?
May 2nd, 2010 at 9:44 am by David FarrarThe turnout for the anti-mining march was impressive, and is one of the largest held in Auckland. I wonder how many knew what they were marching against or for.
Central Auckland was brought to a standstill as a coalition of politicians, celebrities, environmentalists and the public demanded National halt proposals to mine Department of Conservation areas.
Do they mean all DOC areas? Where were they when Labour approved over 100 permits for mining on DOC lands?
She was particularly concerned about the effects of coal-mining: “To take carbon out of the ground and burn it, when we know about climate change, is immoral.”
I’m not sure coal features strongly in any of the Section 4 land proposed for reclassification.
Labour Leader Phil Goff, accompanied by eight caucus members, said the size of the protest indicated the strength of public feeling on the issue: “They don’t want pristine areas desecrated by international mining companies,” he said.
Does Goff not consider all DOC land to be pristine? And does he think it is okay if it is a local mining company?
Meanwhile, Roxanne, a graphic designer who refused to give her last name, carried a placard featuring John Key with a Hitler-esque moustache and a single word in gothic script: “Mein!”
Oh, so witty. If I was Roxanne, I wouldn’t give out my last name either.
May 2nd, 2010 at 9:51 am
Shorter David Farrar
Those 50,000 silly people don’t know what they are doing, did you hear that 1/50000 of them made a joke about Hitler?
“Oh, so witty”
As witty as this?
http://img2.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/0712/6d1e8fde57e0afd4a5ff.jpeg
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:01 am
I think she meant “noodles” (as in chow mein). Makes as much sense as anything else.
It’s normal for protesters to be ill-informed about what they are protesting about.
I remember once I worked for a company in Holland and there were some protesters outside one day. We went and asked them what they were protesting about and were told that it was about the defence contracts the company did for the Dutch government.
Which was strange as the company was composed of about 50% UK people, and the Dutch government would not give us any defence work, even if we had applied as they had this rule about employing Dutch people.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:02 am
Not much to do with conservation, I suggest, but a lot to do with May Day.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:04 am
“Mein” is actually quite witty.
Couldn’t this be applied to just about any march? And did all the people who voted for National at the last election know what they were voting for?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:04 am
Not nearly as witty sonic
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:05 am
Whether the protesters were informed or motivated by logic or not, is is a major show of concern.
I think it’s a good thing – National should now have no illusion about needing to do their homework properly and have damned good justification for allowing mining in protected areas.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:05 am
This shows the reality of a country so poorly served by its media, who are really just a collection of partisan propagandists, and the marchers their gullible gape jawed “useful idiots”.
Until the media once again becomes the province of real journalists reporting objective facts rather than the realm of craven political activists pushing the fashionable Progressive line, the mass idiocy displayed in this march will be a fact of life.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:06 am
50,000 Sonic?
Come on now, you know it was far less than that, even the Herald has said it was well less than 50,000.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:10 am
What was the date yesterday? May 1?
Usual day for left wing rent-a-crowd to come out, and to trick people that there was actually a cause.
The fact that you have a centrist government just gives them an excuse to peddle hate. [Yawn] Nothing to see here.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:11 am
RB, no matter how competent the media is there will always be a degree of mass idiocy. Even if MacDonalds promoted common sense cookies it wouldn’t solve that problem.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:14 am
My theory is the Nats stuffed up.
They found that some mining companies wanted to extend in the West Coast (of the south Island) and the Coromandel.
They thought there would be protests if they did this. Protest would cause delay. Therefore they announce the West Coast plans, an extended Coromandel plan and Great Barrier Island. Thinking, we listen and move back to their original plan.
This would be we listened to the people with the following claims
- kept the West Coast as planned
- modified the Coromandel so having much less impact
- stooped Great Barrier completely
The fact is some people saw through this (as it is the way that the Nats have done a lot of policy promotion. However far worse for the Nats was they under-estimated the reaction to Great Barrier.
Protests are far more dangerous to this government. they join together fractured left group with other communities. The same thing is happening in Chch with ECan sackings. The results will be interesting.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:20 am
and a reality check here…
before yesterday..there was virtually no media promoting..even acknowledging .. the fact this march was on..
the silence was such that i half-expected a poor turnout..
that so many were there..despite the paucity of mainstream coverage/notification tells us two things..
the power of on-line/social-media..
and that many who did not hear about it..would have been there..
..and that is what john key had better take notice of..
..that if he dosen’t do a handbrake-slide..and a u-turn on this one..
..that the next marches will be even bigger..
..key/the nats have done what labour has until now failed to do..
..to re-galvanise people-power..
(as already noted..my favourite sign was ‘i’ll never vote national again’..
..and this was white/middle-class aucklanders marching…
..those key can’t afford to ignore..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:26 am
“..and this was white/middle-class aucklanders marching…”
Fuck off!, it was full of liberal lefty low life, as you well know Phool the numbers (well below the 50,000 claimed by the left) were bolstered by May Day and J day parasites.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:28 am
My interest is in the number 50,000.
Who counted?
If that number is correct why did no photographs posted by the slime last night show the crowd in full instead of close-ups of dick-heads and long shots of straggling groups?
How many of those supposed 50,000 had made an honest, informed decision. How many of those supposed 50,000 were children?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:29 am
‘Oh, so witty. If I was Roxanne, I wouldn’t give out my last name either.’
Yeah – dpf knows its witty, but dpf hates wit coz he has none. In fact he hates it so much that he feels it necessary to write veiled threats toward the woman on behalf of all right-wing nut-jobs.
Nice guy that DPF.
[DPF: If you are going to compare MPs to Hitler, you should be prepared to have the courage of your views and stand by them. I have the courage to stand by my views. You, like Roxanne, do not]
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:31 am
phool
you are just being stupid.
get a brain
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:31 am
If anything the fact that there may have been more people at this march than the EFA one demonstrates how stupid and small minded a large portion of NZ is.
They are indifferent to a Bill that would have taken away a lot of our freedom of speech, but then come out in force for all the trendy issues like anti-mining, when mining could help lead us out of the recession and put thousands of our unemployed into jobs (philu you are excluded from this one, as you seem to be completely unemployable)
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:39 am
lol – the EFA was all about the undue influence of big money on elections. If you want a violation of freedom-of-speech look no further than the ECAN debacle: Sorry you guys can’t vote coz we don’t like who you vote for.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:41 am
“to re-galvanise people power” What a load of horseshit. If it wasn’t a Sunday and WINZ wasn’t shut 3/4 of these two-bobs would be hard at work at ways to rip the system off. I have to laugh at your rather pitiful calls for Shonkey to pull back. Fuck socialist git, how many times did people march against the socialist regime and how much good did it do. You expect those in power to respect your views but had nothing but contempt for that those protested against corrupt government a few years ago. Whats good for the gander should be good for the goose, I hope Shonkey gives this march the respect it deserves, sweet fuck all.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:41 am
If mining the rocks in people’s heads ever becomes profitable, we at least now know how to get a mine together.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:46 am
Only reason for the large crowd was that Labour and the Greens got the troops out of bed early.
Note all the Labour party and Union signs throughout the crowd.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:57 am
I saw 30,000 people march on Parliament for the Foreshore and Seabed protest. That protest went from Parliament to Civic Square in Wellington without any gaps. I saw a march 1/10th that length on the news – no more than 5,000 at most.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:06 am
trouble with whore is that being so stoned everything becomes a blur…one person becomes two in the drug haze..hence him thinking 50k when infact 25000 was closer to the truth.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:18 am
i hafta qualify that bfm made a good fist of spreading the word..
but then..they are the best radio station in the world..eh..?
what was that..?..a link..?
ok..
here ya go..!
http://www.95bfm.com/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:27 am
idiotboy, How apt is that nome d plume, Ecan was replaced by a commission after due process and as one who resides under their useless money sucking wastful activities, good riddance. After some 18 years of rubbish activity they hadn’t progress one, if not the most important core function they inherited from the “catchment Board i e a water strategy. They had however spent a sh*t load of my rates trying to prevent the creation of Pegasus town, Thwarting Lady Issac’s plans for her land at Harewood, endured a Counciller motoring from Sheffield or was it Springfield to Ecans Head Office in the City as he didn’t want to get information on a computor, created a pest management company that went foraging in outside areas for work at unsustainable pricing that put existing operators out of business then went bankrupt sorry insolvent itself.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:27 am
DPF:
Yes, I agree there is some hypocrisy from Labour here – especially given Pike River. But the object of the march was to stop mining on Schedule 4 land, not on the conservation estate generally.
Paparoa National Park, which is one of the targeted areas of the conservation estate, is all about coal.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:28 am
” Meanwhile, Roxanne, a graphic designer who refused to give her last name, carried a placard featuring John Key with a Hitler-esque moustache and a single word in gothic script: “Mein!” ”
The nausea inducing irony of all of this is that the politically and historically ignorant Roxanne and her collection of gormless fools are actually marching in support of so many Fascist concepts WITHOUT BEING AWARE OF IT.
NZ, like every other country engulfed by the Progressive political wave, is drenched in Fascism, broadly defined in reality as the (religious) belief that government, by controlling every facet of our lives, can bring about Heaven on earth.
See Jonah Goldberg’s book “Liberal Fascism”.
http://www.newsrealblog.com/2010/05/01/obama-style-socialism/
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:31 am
Anyone interested in a bit of history might care to contrast DPF’s discussion of this march (along with the various comments about it in the thread) with previous posts on marches against the Electoral Finance Act:
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/05/a_good_turnout_in_tauranga.html
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/03/the_auckland_efa_protest.html
Apparently, when tens-of-thousands of people march against something you like, they are unreasonable ideologues or deluded simpletons. When a few hundred march against something you dislike, they are noble and committed citizens showing the depth of public opposition to the government. I mean, it’s just obvious, isn’t it?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:35 am
As I said on GD- The Progressives have the traitorous media. They have our disintegrating education system. They have our decrepit and inwardly collapsing public institutions. They have the whole disgusting archaic totalitarian socialist paradigm, and AG and his cronies boast about a mere 50,000 dimbulb brainwashed lackies???
Ccompared to the EFB protestors who marched and organised as a people’s movement. Without anything from the socialist controlled public political infrastructure but derision.
THe EFB was a real protest. This was a Chavez style collection of phonies, cronyists and useful idiots.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:44 am
What lame excuses are being offered here.
It is becoming very clear that a large number of Kiwis don’t want the country dug up and stuffed.
I am no Labour supporter, but I reckon if National doesn’t take notice this protest could be the beginning of a Labour come back.
Like I have said before, go and meet some miners, most of them are a pack of bloody vandals that would happily cut down every last tree if we let them.
Vote:They are the wrong people to be relying on for a better future for NZ.
May 2nd, 2010 at 11:47 am
Poor DPF, so confused…
They were marching against plans to mine Schedule 4 land. No, not all DOC land.
This handy video will explain it to you http://www.nzherald.co.nz/video/news/video.cfm?c_id=1501138&gal_cid=1501138&gallery_id=110926
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:51 am
All this is very predictable, very predictable. Yet Gerry Brolwnlee had NO political strategy to deal with it. I just get sick of politicians who think they can just ram things through and hope the public will just take it lying down. And Brownlee is one of those. This is a worthwhile policy and Brownlee is in danger of losing it though his ignorant approach to the issue. But never mind I regard minerals are money in the bank and the policy of mining them can be revisited when there is a more skillful Minister in charge.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:51 am
Re[reading David’s post I am reminded of this
The Solution
Bertolt Brecht
“After the uprising of the 17th June
The Secretary of the Writers Union
Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
Stating that the people
Had forfeited the confidence of the government
And could win it back only
By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?”
(http://plagiarist.com/poetry/662/)
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:53 am
Rimu nailed it, it’s not so much DOC land, it’s the reallocation & it’s a place Labour never went.
I personally think Brownlie misread the mood on this one & to be frank he’s way to smarmy in his presentation to help the cause.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:53 am
“It is becoming very clear that a large number of Kiwis don’t want the country dug up and stuffed.”
This is the kind of hoplessly emotive rhetoric that characterises the thinking of these gormless morons.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:54 am
“They must be confused people, who don’t know what they are doing, because WE are not confused, oh no we know exactly what WE are doing…”
it’s called projection.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 12:05 pm
“to be frank he’s way to smarmy in his presentation to help the cause.”
For once Nigel, you’ve said something with half a point. Brownlee cannot make the case because he argues it on terms set for him by those Marxists and Progressives who posture as the authoritative voice on “environmentalism”. The premise of their arguments is all wrong, but as Brownlee uses the same premise, his argument in the end suffers the same flaws.
There is no way any of the current Nats have the ammunition to seriously argue their case. They’re too ideologically bereft and politically compromised and confused to ever make any real progress. The left will keep winning until the Nats are purged of compromisers and dullards who think only a few degrees away from those they describe as the opposition.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 12:09 pm
“until the Nats are purged”
Ever thought of changing your login to Chairman Mao Ratbleater?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 12:10 pm
“In classical psychology, projection is always seen as a defense mechanism that occurs when a person’s own unacceptable or threatening feelings are repressed and then attributed to someone else.”
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 12:11 pm
Largest march in recent times and you focus on a single joke. Classic.
All I am going to say is it put that family first loop to total shame.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 12:13 pm
“This is the kind of hoplessly emotive rhetoric that characterises the thinking of these gormless morons.”
Well I can see what the miners are already doing down here Red and yes, it gets me a bit emotional.
Vote:I can’t stand vandals, especially professional vandals, and that is what this is about.
On paper these mining proposals seem reasonable, shame there are few reasonable people to implement them.
May 2nd, 2010 at 12:28 pm
This is a pretty poor posting and I hope this isn’t the level of spin the National Party thinks is going to be acceptable.
People realised that it was about mining in Schedule 4 land, (the amount of signs on the march specifically talking about Schedule 4 was evidence of this) not the conservation estate as a whole, land legislation defines as:
“scenery of such distinctive quality, ecological systems, or natural features so beautiful, unique, or scientifically important that their preservation is in the national interest” and;
“indigenous flora or fauna or natural features that are of such rarity, scientific interest or importance, or so unique that their protection and preservation are in the public interest”
The areas in question are such areas, where threathened species are located as well as very rare flora and fauna, in 2010 NZ we soldn’t have to tell the government (that on the environmental front seems to be completely out of touch with what NZers consider “core” values such as this and whaling) that some areas are off limits…
That is without getting into the economic argument, the “surgical” line being pushing both of which are weak…
Kiwi’s didn’t vote for this and Key should put a leash on Brownlee (and MacCully over whaling) before they become a government that, at best, is a two term government…
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 12:31 pm
Chairman Mao Redbaiter, Smarmy was perhaps wrongly worded, I think lacking in any obvious regret about mining Schedule 4 is probably what’s fired people up a bit & unless that impression get’s altered the protests will keep rising.
Vote:National is fighting a huge global trend of Green on this, it’s almost like they some in National have not been in power for 9 years & doing what they wanted to back then without realising the world has changed since they were last in power.
May 2nd, 2010 at 12:34 pm
Of course it’s easy to find some silly comments and put some spin on it. That’s just a cheap shot.
As Rimu pointed out the motivation is driven by proposed mining on schedule 4 land.
And given that it’s only a small portion of that land, you have to ask yourself, is it really worth it?
Is it worth for National and is it worth for the country? Is mining that minuscule amount of schedule 4 land going to make such a big difference to the economy? Of course not!
So why is National taking such a big risk? Couldn’t they just have increased mining in other areas?
It seems to me that the only reason why National is testing the waters is to release more of schedule 4 land in future.
Isn’t it funny that on the one hand they insist that the GDP gap between Australia and NZ cannot be explained by their mineral wealth (http://www.2025taskforce.govt.nz/firstreport/01.htm) and yet on the other hand they insist that mining (especially in the schedule 4 land) here will close that gap?
I think that National and especially Gerry Brownlee has miscalculated the reaction on the public. Also Gerry certainly did not handle such a delicate subject very well. The blundered back-of-the-envelope cost/benefit calculations does not inspire much trust in his reasoning.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 12:35 pm
Nice day and too cold to go to the beach!
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 12:36 pm
toad (2067) Says:
“But the object of the march was to stop mining on Schedule 4 land, not on the conservation estate generally.”
Was it? I couldn’t tell.
If that message was there it got lost in the opportunistic politicisation of the underlying issue by the collection of deadbeats, misfits and rent-a-crowd agenda merchants who were egged on by a couple of D grade TV actors and the pointless flapping seagull who, once again, sported his dopey vacant grin whilst marching to the tune of the hypocrisy walz. All this to the fevered and breathless coverage of the usual gaggle of media packagers.
50,000?? 100,000 would have seemed a far more impressive “estimate”.
Hopefully anyone that is genuinely opposed to mining these areas for reasons other than their own political agendas will make submissions on point and if they have any sense at all they will distance themselves from the antics of the vast brigade of fuckwits that accompanied them yesterday.
Its interesting to observe the reactions of people to issues that are hijacked in this way. The whales probably have less sympathy now than previously all because of the cumulative effect of the behaviour of protestors in the southern ocean; culminating in those of that fuckwit that the Japs have locked up. It will be interesting to see if the mining issue suffers any backlash for the same reason. Any cause supported by the pointless flapping seagull is doomed to the dustbin of public opinion.
I’m not sayin’ its rational, I’m just sayin’ ….
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 12:38 pm
Ironic, really. You hardly realise how fascist some of your own comments are at times. With your views any fascist organisation would actually welcome you.
It’s funny also how you are very similar to Roxanne in that you will use any idiotic comparison with Hitler/facsism to forward your even more idiotic views.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 12:45 pm
“National is fighting a huge global trend of Green on this”
..and good on them. Its just a pity they do not have the political depth to achieve their objective. They will cave on it, in the mistaken belief that the opposition organised by the socialist front is representative of the man in the street.
Prisoners of a beltway mindset and cowering to politically partisan media opinion formers, the insulated from reality Nats still do not know that there is in fact widespread popular support for mining, and that the environmentalist movement is more and more exposed as a haven for extreme leftists. Soon it will be totally discredited.
If only we had a real opposition, switched on to real global trends and not so blinkered by a parochial perspective that is the result of the unworthy influence of the clique of elitist leftist buffoons that control the media and the education system in New Zealand.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 12:45 pm
Can’t remember how many turned out in Nuremburg for the Hitler Rally which presaged the Crystal Night.
Nor can I remember how many went to the rally in Moscow to celebrate the anniversary of the birth of Communism in the 1950′s.
What they and yesterday’s shower share in common is the belief that they have the answers, and a conspiracy keeps changing the question. Demonstrators of all persuasions are mindless fools marching to the diktat of oppressors.
By the time they find this out, they have usually arrived at the Gulag, and find the way back does not come by way of rent-a-mob.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 12:51 pm
” the Crystal Night.”
You are really up on your history there friend
“Demonstrators of all persuasions are mindless fools marching to the diktat of oppressors.”
Well so much for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr.#March_on_Washington.2C_1963
And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monday_demonstrations_in_East_Germany
Not forgetting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 1:02 pm
Socialists on the other hand have never marched for anything that doesn’t in the end just boil down to bigger more powerful government and higher taxes.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 1:08 pm
What people SHOULD be protesting about is the ETS that’s going to tax the shit out of the country for no good reason come July 1st. Instead the protesters are probably liberal greenies who are all for that. Weird how upside down people’s priorities are, and the media has to take a lot of the blame for that.
The media long ago stopped being mainly about the reporting of news.
The media is now one big advocacy group, both political and social, and they are very liberal and ‘Politically Correct’. The problem is that people (especially younger people) think of them as some kind of conscience-of-the-people, or that what they report is Truth when in reality the media are a tool for those with an agenda – mostly Leftists.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 1:10 pm
Redbaiter 12:45 pm,
Amen to that, Red.
The tie-in between Socialism, Environmentalism, Globalism, Facism et al gets clearer every day.
And I wonder how many of those that marched yesterday were also supporters of Bradford’s anti-family bill?
Perhaps we need a referendum (binding?) on the issues surrounding mining, and areas appropriate, and extent thereof, for such activities. Now THAT would be democracy in action; but once you ignore one referendum it kind of undermines your imperitive to use such devices to pass laws you, as the government, may actually want to go through. The fact that Key and Co. ignored 87% of the people (that bothered to vote) on the whole anti smacking thing will continue to bite them in the arse in this regard.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 1:13 pm
Fletch 1:08 pm,
Spot on, too, Fletch.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Godwin’s Law applies to protests on all kinds of issues:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2361/2092235108_6ac9e60886.jpg?v=0
Obviously this has nothing whatsoever to do with the merits of the argument. And obviously DPF knows that.
Do better.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 1:21 pm
“Helen Clark is Adolf Hitler” lacks imagination.
How about “Labour Will Make You Free”?
And that’s just off the top of my head.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 1:25 pm
One theory, which seemed to makes some sense, was that Government chucked Great Barrier in with other conservation areas they want to have mined, so that protest would mount against great Barrier, and Government would concede that to the masses and happily carry on with the other areas. But even if this was anything near their intention, the whole issue seems to have backfired now. It is a pity that so little ‘government’ seems straight forward, without ploys and spins and end games and all that krap, that so little seems to be able to be taken at face value anymore.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 1:31 pm
“The tie-in between Socialism, Environmentalism, Globalism, Facism (sic) gets clearer every day.’
They all end in “ism”? sort of rhyme with “Rhythm’
Do tell
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 1:37 pm
Sonic,
The word you’re looking for is “jism”.
The word most people are looking for is “jism”, as a general rule.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 1:39 pm
Thanks Ryan, that is the word, it was on the tip of my tongue
(oh, er Mrs!)
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 1:46 pm
Compare and contrast.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10476662
“Members of the migrant community on the march say they came to New Zealand to escape dictatorship, and some have likened Miss Clark to Adolf Hitler”
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 1:49 pm
Any comparison to Adolf Hitler is sick and pathetic, there are a multitude of other avenues to get your political messages across effectively.
The irony is that John Key is Jewish (even if he denies it, Jewish law states that the children of Jewish mothers are automatically Jew from birth).
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 1:50 pm
Doesn’t it make you laugh how Kris K gets beating children into every topic! It’s amazing!
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 2:06 pm
eszett – “Doesn’t it make you laugh how Kris K gets beating children into every topic! It’s amazing!”
Makes me laugh how you get “beating children” out of every mention of smacking…
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 2:07 pm
I struggle to understand the mental process of the protesters who would wish to lock-up New Zealands wealth…
Unless it is of the ground or from the ground, New Zealand has little to support a growing population, by way of jobs, or welfare dependence, by way of Government.
A first world knowledge based economy is, in itself, a delusion…it ain’t going to happen, unless we are going to grow our economy beyond the “sheeps” back.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 2:14 pm
As I have said in an earlier post, this is a political own-goal for National.
Yes these are leftist groups marching on May day, but they have galvanized around something that can pull at Middle-NZ and enable the left to play on fears of a “vast right wing conspiracy” to turn NZ into an industrial wasteland. Same as the May-day groups in Greece rioting over the austerity measures on the same day and ultimately for the same reasons. It captures the minds of the average person in the country and their fears about the future. Come election day, those fears and gut feelings will come to fore. It’s not about rational debate in politics as these don’t get broadcast or presented to most people – it is about “(superficial) hearts and (small) minds”.
I guarantee you, most NZers seeing what they are seeing on their TV’s around this issue will be anti-mining and fear what National is doing. Damage control needs to be swift, and it needs to come from Key.
This is why we need careful operators in Parliament to manage issues that can spiral out of their control if given half a chance. Brownlee goofed, plain and simple. Hopefully this will focus the minds of the National politicians who have become arrogant and complacent with a weak opposition.
As for the ECAN issue, still simmering away – National need to outline a roadmap to the restoration of political accountability in the hands of Cantabrians.
This is two big crosses for Nationals environmental credibility. Throw in the industrialised farming proposals still moving ahead unchecked and their reputation is starting to look rather sullied.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 2:18 pm
How many people were actually there.
TV One news lead was 40,000 and then at half time in the news it had grown to 50,000.
sadly there will have been some genuine concern from some people there yesterday, but the front ranks were filled with rent a mob who will protest at the opening of an envelope.
Forget the mining lets just tax the fuck out of the small percentage of us still working.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 2:21 pm
gravedodger: ‘Ecan was replaced by a commission after due process…’
Since when does due process involve taking away peoples’ right to vote? Democracy is a real bitch for you and your mates when you don’t get what you want – ay.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 2:31 pm
Brownlee, Hide and Smith are producing all sorts of problems for Key- he really needs to do something about it now. If he waits until after the Local Govt elections in October, it will be too late.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 2:40 pm
“Local Govt elections in October,”
Are the socialists allowing a vote for Cantabs? Bob each way big government stole my right to vote!
Vote:This country is a mess run by fools.
May 2nd, 2010 at 2:47 pm
A question for all those who think this crowd of tens-of-thousands will turn out to march for or against anything at the drop of a hat, are just having an alternative to a day at the beach, don’t know what they’re marching for or against, don’t care about the issues, etc:
How come they never turn up to any of YOUR marches?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 3:01 pm
The Herald yesterday said “an estimated 50,000 marchers”; the Herald today said “Up to 40,000″; the Police said 20,000.
The size of the crowd diminished by 20% overnight!
But however many marched yesterday, let’s not forget that 95,356 people voted for Winston First in 2008, which just goes to show that you can fool some of the people all the time, all of the people some of the time but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time
http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/05/20-reduction-overnight.html
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 3:09 pm
Philip Ure said
So you keep saying Phil. Did you ask the kid carrying the sign how many times he had voted National before yesterday?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 3:11 pm
Who gives a flying toss what these leftists are marching for?
They had their chance in government and in that time showed just how much they really cared about the environment.
Only when they could use it to gain votes or be seen to have the moral high ground in these matters, did they ever give a toss.
I also find it unusual that alot of posters in here are more concerned about losing a few votes, rather than building the economy, creating jobs and bringing wealth to alot of New Zealand people that normally wouldn’t have it.
What is more important to the National supporters in here… Staying in power, or going down the right path and showing New Zealand an alternative to socialism?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 3:30 pm
So the marchers did not have a good grasp on the facts?
The Minister has been criticised all the way to the Commissioner of the Environment for not being coherent, specific or consistent and yet it is up to the public to be informed, balanced and in favour of a vigorous mining policy?
The government has made a terrible hash of introducing a new policy. It is an absolute PR disaster, just possibly because of the Minister’s personal limitations.
Now the protesters are on the streets in unprecedented numbers over the issue.
Did somebody say ten times the organisers top estimate?
I think what should have been a coherent well received new strategy, at last something that fitted the step change rhetoric, has been blown apart by clumsy mishandling from the top professional politicians.
Now the dogs are loose and the government will only foment trouble if it persists.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 3:39 pm
Black Paul
WE dont do the marching thing, because its infantile, attention seeking behaviour, means fuck all, and are too busy working.
Sector 7g – absolutely correct.
Too many on this thread sound in panic mode just because rent a mob went for a walk.
I can’t wait until we get a US ship back in our ports, excellent all the anti’s will have a stroke on that as well.
We don’t see the anti’s out there regarding Robert Mugabe, just when National and or the US are involved.
And the final thing , nobody has actually talked about actually doing any digging yet – sad no life wankers.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 3:42 pm
Clearly Graeme Edgeler is the only person who can recognise wit on this most tragically idiotic excuse of a thread. I applaud this graphic designer Roxanne for her masterful appropriation of the word ‘mine’ (spelt ‘mein’) placed over an image of Mr Key wearing a Hitler-esque mustache. I actually saw this placard on the march and I must say the likeness between the two men was incredibly surreal. Anyway I conclude that I have never in my life come across such a mass of gormless comments. Obviously I have stumbled across a site filled with a bunch of unhappy National supporters – irony is you voted him in.
[DPF: Are you referring to yourself in this comment?]
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 4:09 pm
Black Paul, I think you will find that political protest is a Socialist tactic, certainly not a Conservative one.
Traditionally, Conservatives have voted with their ballot papers. When we are opposed to political reform, instead of people protest on the streets – we prefer to use our democratic power instead.
A token of this effectiveness is how we ousted the last 9-year Labour government, and how for the vast majority of New Zealand’s political lifeline post-ww2: National administrations have served this country.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 4:18 pm
Why must these environmental protest groups always walk down mined bitumen? Surely they could walk somewhere with more environmentally friendly substances underfoot.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 4:36 pm
Good on you rackit, Ciomparing any freely elected leader to a mass murderer (Hitler )is not funny not ironic but incredibly insulting to many many people , even Graeme would not support that.
Anyway I am mostly happy with the “gormless” comments on this blog, on a daily basis so Fuck off , I hope that is succinct enough for you somene of your obviouly towering intellect.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 4:52 pm
V(125)
… like the Waitemata Harbour?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 5:14 pm
@thedavincimode
Well in the words of Homer Simpson:
Under the sea
Vote:Under the sea
There’ll be no accusations
Just friendly crustaceans
Under the sea!
May 2nd, 2010 at 5:17 pm
50,000 in Auckland ?
That is a pretty good sample statistically speaking. Probably about 20 times more than the ACT’s campaign march to bring back beating of kids held just before Christmas ( and evil santa).
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 5:26 pm
Mudwatcher said: The government has made a terrible hash of introducing a new policy. It is an absolute PR disaster, just possibly because of the Minister’s personal limitations.
Yep, there are personal limitations with that particular Minister: “woodwork teacher with two short planks”.
That aside, Key is claiming that mining Schedule 4 land will be good for the economy, but neither he or Brownlee have produced any evidence to back up that claim. Brownlee even went as far as to say something to the effect of “we don’t know what’s there until we dig it up”.
The only thing he’s digging is his own political grave. If these guys think that the benefit to the economy from mining Schedule 4 land will outweigh the detriment to tourism of desecrating places like Paparoa National Park and Great Barrier Island, they need to put up the evidence to support that claim.
I have to say that nothing I have seen from the Government or from the right wing blogs (DPF, adamsmith, Adolf at No Minister all seem to be using ridicule and/or abuse rather than evidence to attack the anti-miners) would indicate they actually have any evidence at all that this will economically benefit New Zealand.
If it’s anything more than “dig and hope”, surely they need some evidence to convince people of that.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 5:32 pm
no..dirty rat..(ahem!) 50,000 ..is fifty times more than the smackers-march..
on the day..radio new zealand reported 1,000..
i was there observing..and would agree with that number..
i was also there yesterday…participating..and observing..
..and..whoar..!
..eh..?
as one of the ‘experts’ said on q&a.
…’that came out of nowhere’…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 5:34 pm
Toad
When you stop clapping yourself on the back about the collection of left wing vermin who assembled in Auckland yesterday you might want to stop and take a breath.
Sure, 20,000 odd thousand (and that is being generous) might have marched yesterday but they do not reflect the view of the majority, for some reason the vast majority of the people in this country like Neville Key, mining on schedule four land is not going to change that.
I cannot wait for the bulldozers and I cannot wait to read and hear the watermelons screaming……did, baby, DIG.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 5:40 pm
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3648251/Thousands-say-no-to-mining-proposals
Stars making a Noise. well hmm. Be much more impressed if they behaved like this.
Lucy could look quite nice.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/oddstuff/3647413/US-women-stage-topless-protest
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 5:42 pm
The environmental disaster off the Louisiana Coast and the tardy response of BP has probably put an end to the drill baby drill mantra.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 6:11 pm
big bruv said:
I’ll be doing a bit more than screaming, mate.
I prefer an evidence based approach to a public opinion based one, but in any case, the polls don’t back you up bruv:
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 6:19 pm
mavxp (170) Says:
May 2nd, 2010 at 2:14 pm
As I have said in an earlier post, this is a political own-goal for National.
snip
This is two big crosses for Nationals environmental credibility. Throw in the industrialised farming proposals still moving ahead unchecked and their reputation is starting to look rather sullied.
**********************************
Thats the problem with National and has been for a very long time, an almost complete inability to argue a point, and for the most part, it does not seem to matter the issue. Defence is a similar problem area for them and I think that this is another area that National will be eventually de-facto adopting a left leaning line, for no other reason than they just don’t have the intellectual capacity argue a point to a successful conclusion no matter the merits of it.
Vote:Intellectual inferiority and lust for power are National’s greatest weaknesses.
May 2nd, 2010 at 6:29 pm
Oh please, how arrogant and hypocritical are you, DPF? “If they knew what they were marching about”. Fucking LOL. You laud the child beaters as being focused, and the truckers etc. Yet suddenly when National makes a complete and utter hash of an issue you have the self-righteousness to question if 50,000 odd protesters who took to the streets against mining in schedule 4 land “knew what they were marching about”? Wow. Just wow.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 6:30 pm
20,000 Donkey Punchers according to the police. If you split that up between the anti-mining protestors, the legalisation lot, the minimum wage crowd, the generic May Day posse and the usual career protestors, it comes to 5,000 each. Rubbish.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 6:36 pm
^nice methodology you got there. seems completely sound…..
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 6:40 pm
HD, you forgot the cannabis legalisation ones. It was J-Day as well.
But the protest was seriously against schedule 4 mining. It was separate from the minimum wage/ workers rights union ones and the cannabis legalisation rally – which happened later in the day, and none of which attracted a few more than a few hundred people.
The 50,000 were there opposing mining Schedule 4 land – not about cannabis or workers’ rights.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 6:41 pm
1,000 smacker-marchers..(according to nat-rad..
so..you’d have yr fascists..yr sadists..yr libertarians..yr incoherant..yr inchoate..yr knuckle-dragging deeply confused..yr sensible sentencers..
..yr family firsts..yr act-ites..and yr deeply reactionary nattys..
..how many is that of each..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 6:43 pm
shit..!..i forgot all about j-day..!
..i’d have gone..!..(he plaintively cried..)
..as a ‘smoker’..that’s kinda funny/ironic/worrying..?..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 6:45 pm
And even if we are to take seriously the 50,000 Donkey Puncher statistic being bandied around by Phillip and chronic and the other bedwetters, that’s still just 5% of the Auckland population (if none had been bussed up) and 5.1% of the left-wing vote from 2008. Fission mailed.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 6:45 pm
oh..i forgot national front…(tho’ i guess the loose labelling of ‘fascists’ wd cover them..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 6:46 pm
Certainly quite a few marchers there, and I’m guessing there’s a fairly wide set of reasons for showing up. Some will undoubtedly have been there because, in their minds, mining=evil. Others will have been there because they’ve taken hook-line-and-sinker the lie that NZs precious vastness is about to be turned in to the world’s largest collection of open-cast mines. And others would have been primarily keen to rub shoulders with a celebrity or two.
I’m ok with careful mining on a case-by-case basis, but the notion that all Schedule-4 mining is inherently wrong is just stupid. Similarly, suggesting that all mining on non-Schedule-4 land is a-ok is also stupid.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 6:47 pm
They are marching for Glory!!
Nothing else matters.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 6:48 pm
oh hurf..!
..what knots you are tying yrslf in..eh..?
..and i still contend that yr favourite new word..’donkeypuncher’..
..means for many..those who anally-fuck ‘don-key’..
..eh..?
ya wanta rethink that one..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 7:07 pm
Yep, HD, phil has a good point. You weren’t that fella rogering a donkey in Sumnervale Reserve last month were you?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 7:09 pm
Toad
Let’s agree for the sake of this argument that you are correct, lets also agree that the vast majority of that same public do not want mining on conversation land (although at least 50% could not care less).
How gutted will you and the rest of the left feel when the Nat’s go right ahead and mine anyway?
When you feel that, when you see them mining despite your efforts to try and change the mind of the government just remember how 82% of us felt when you and that Bradford thing shoved through the anti smacking bill, just remember how at LEAST 82% of us are going to feel when this fucking government brings in a totally unnecessary ETS on the first of June.
You can be as angry as you like mate, you can protest as much as you want but they will not listen to a word you have to say……in other words Toad, welcome to a bloody good drop of your own medicine, it has a somewhat bitter taste and the worst part is seeing the smug grin on the wankers dishing it out for you to swallow.
I think they call it poetic justice…
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 7:26 pm
one-term-john…
..is how they will know/remember him..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 7:32 pm
In the same way you want to rethink the pathetic little epithet your ilk has been using against US conservatives for the last year? No, I don’t think I will.
I do hope Phillip and Frogboy knows what a donkey punch actually is.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 7:33 pm
Horror of horrors, but I wish the bludger Whoar were correct in his prediction: one term as PM is all Neviille Key deserves.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 7:42 pm
big bruv said: …just remember how 82% of us felt when you and that Bradford thing shoved through the anti smacking bill…
Well, all you pro-smackers managed to organise was a pathetic little march with about 4000 people at best on it. You may have had the numbers in opinion polls (Boscawen, McCroskey and Baldock did a good PR job), but did not generate the intensity of feeling that motivates people to act en masse.
I think if any mining is ever approved on Schedule 4 land, we’ll see rather more protest action than just a big march up Queen Street, bruv.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 7:43 pm
Phool,
You stupid prick the sign said “50% pure” not “50% URE” Watch it again you drug crazed dropkick.
Fucking wanker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV0avCpCVfs&feature=player_embedded
And look at Lucy Ryan, nobody knows who the fuck she is
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 7:43 pm
toad,
I think you foolishly forget that Labour was voted out of office in 2008, many will argue that section 59 contributed to that downfall.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 7:44 pm
philu @ 6.41
You forgot those who marched to bring back ‘Dancing with the Stars”
even if 20,000, DPF would cream himself to get that sample size.
When’s the pro-march ?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 7:54 pm
So we got Herald reporting 40,000
Stuff, up to 50,000
TV3 reporting 50,000
Scoop reporting 50,000
State television reporting 40,000
I’m confused
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 7:55 pm
Alluding to terrorism, frogboy?
Speaking of which, it can’t simply be coincidental that the first time an oil rig explodes in decades occurs a month after Greenpeace thugs threaten terrorist action against “climate deniers.”
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 7:56 pm
Fale Andrew Lesa said:
I think you foolishly forget that Labour was voted out of office in 2008, many will argue that section 59 contributed to that downfall.
I’m sure it did. But it was evidence-based policy – all the evidence indicates that hitting children negatively impacts on their development. Votes are not what should count – Governments should do what they assess, on the basis of the evidence, it is correct to do. And they should take the risk of being voted out on an unpopular call. That’s why the Greens have never been in Government – because we espouse what we believe on the evidence is correct, rather than pander to populism which is often based on prejudice and misinformation.
But Gerry can’t come up with any evidence to show there are economic benefits of mining Schedule 4 land over leaving it as part of the conservation estate that many tourists visit every year.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 7:57 pm
After looking at the youtube clip many times, I would doubt if more than 12000 were there.
Vote:And take off 500 for media repeaters. Come on protesters, you join from the side streets but the bottom of Queen St is bare.
Oh one person, that would be Phool looking for all of the joints dropped
May 2nd, 2010 at 7:58 pm
@Hurf Durf 7:55 pm
If you don’t understand the difference between non-violent civil disobedience and terrorism, HD, I would suggest a brain transplant.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 8:01 pm
Toad
” but did not generate the intensity of feeling that motivates people to act en masse.”
You are bloody delusional mate, so 20,000 odd lefties turned out to protest against the government, big fucking deal, the left specialise in this type of thing.
I had no idea how divorced from real life you actually are, if you think schedule 4 mining will generate even one tenth of the passion that Bradford’s anti smacking bill generated then you might have an argument.
I had to laugh at one of the speakers who asked the government to listen to the people, this type of call is common from the left when they are not in power, did the last Labour/Green government listen to the people?….like fuck they did.
I can only speak for myself Toad, but I enjoy this, for me, it is payback.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 8:02 pm
“But it was evidence-based policy – all the evidence indicates that hitting children negatively impacts on their development”
More blatant lies.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 8:03 pm
actually hurf..either way..just go for the ‘brain transplant’..eh..?
..things can only get better..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 8:04 pm
Will the anti-mining brigade be the first groups to sign up to voluntarily reduce their personal commodity consumption if commodity prices explode in the future?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 8:05 pm
Steve has nailed it
More people turned up to ACT’s “Save Dancing with the Stars/beat up your kids” than yesterdays tiny assembly
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 8:05 pm
Oh look, the P smoking parasite is back again.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 8:08 pm
Toad,
Lets talk evidence because the same evidence shows that when corporal punishment was abolished in New Zealand, in 1990, bullying shot through the roof (literally), violence on teachers became a new phenominine, and the need for stress counselling for teachers has increased as a result of constant misbehaivour in the classroom.
Now you quote that “all the evidence indicates that hitting children negatively impacts on their development.”
Hitting children for correctional purposes stretches as far back as the first century BC, are you suggesting that all children smacked, that were born before 2007 were ill-developed?
Two research projects from Otago and Massey as recent as 2007 have shown that there is no difference in outcomes between children that are smacked and children that are not, in fact in some cases – children performed better, when smacking was used for correctional practice.
I’m not going to continue a social debate that should have ended in 2007 (traditional versus ‘positive’ parenting), but let me remind you that smacking is still legal in this country – John Key himself expressed ‘discretion in the court of justice’ over section 59.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 8:12 pm
does anyone know who big-smacker is banging on about..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 8:14 pm
“..a new phenominine..”
mmm!!!..’ phenominines’.!.
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 8:19 pm
piss-off..!..fale-smacker..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 8:22 pm
pauleastbay and Fale Andrew Lesa,
Both good answers to the question of why the right doesn’t tend to get big numbers on the streets, but the question I asked was this:
When you DO have a march, how come all these unaware-of-the-issues, just-want-a-day-out, don’t-know-what-they’re-doing-there-but-like-marching types don’t turn up?
I mean if it’s not about the causes, surely they’d turn up for ALL of the marches – anti smacking, anti EFA etc. Why don’t they?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 8:27 pm
There isn’t one.
Doubt it.
You were one of those infiltrators, huh, Silly Twat? Figures.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 8:28 pm
Philu,
Wouldn’t it be more fun for you to troll around the leftist blogs, I’m sure they wouldn’t mind biting the bait? they must have all that time on their hands after all.
Good question black paul, one better suited for others to answer. I haven’t lived in the country long enough, and protests in Germany aren’t as often.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 8:42 pm
black paul @ 8.22pm
Robbing Mal and Lucy Ryan turn up to improve their dying career, you know, the lets pretend people that get paid for pretending
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 8:43 pm
What is it that lefties don’t get between EXPLORING the viability of mining on DoC land vs. actually doing it?
Is it because they’re so used to authoritarian lefty regimes who run roughshod over the smallest most helpless segments (like we saw with Hulun), that they possibli don’t understand this is merely an EXPLORATORY exercise.
Those poor things, they appear to need counseling, so damaged they appear to be, by the evil, nasty and ruthless 5th Liarbore govt’s ubiquitous modus operandi.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 8:51 pm
Fale Andrew Lesa said:
I’m not sure of that, but the number of people who have died in both civilian murders and wars since the first century BC would tend to support my argument that parental violence as discipline tends to raise children who grow to adults who believe that violence is the way to resolve both inter-personal and inter-cultural issues.
It is the mentality that you get your own way through force (rather than reason). Kids who learn that, through being beaten into submission when young, will have a propensity to re-enact it as adults.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 9:00 pm
LOL…
You associate smacking with wars and murders? I have no response, I’m baffled.
Research shows that smacking in New Zealand has faced decline since the 1960′s, where NZ parents adopted ‘positive parenting’ tactics instead of smacking. Your logic would mean that murders would have dropped from the 1960′s.
My next question is, have we seen a decline in murder figures since the 1960′s?
I am a product of traditional parenting and I have openly acknowledged that violence is NOT the only way, in fact by all means it is a last resort.
Please, refrain from using popular social assumptions and stereotypes.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 9:00 pm
I agree with Fale. The use of physical punishment has declined a lot since the 1960s; is the world a reason-embracing utopia? It appears not. At least he understands that violence and aggression is inherent to the human condition and the use of it is both a rational choice based on a cost-benefit analysis and irrational based on a spur of the moment burst of fury. Either way, it’s certainly more realistic than toad’s blank slate dream.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 9:03 pm
A couple of things:
My views on mining have been presented here before and will consequently be known to those who are interested in such things.
With this in mind, I was extremely interested to see a certain ‘Bunnie’ McDiarmid, Greenpeace’s NZ operative (apaprently paid by them) , rabbiting-on (sorry- unintentional pun) at length about how successful Greenpeace had been in motivating New Zealanders to come out and join the anti-mining ‘parade’. One got the distinct impression that she sincerely believed that Greenpeace had been solely responsible for the whole circus.
IF such was in fact the case and Greenpeace was in fact the organiser, this would seem to be a situation in which warning bells should be ringing amongst those who believe in democracy and the independence of a sovereign state, for the simple reason that, we have before us the spectacle of an international very wealthy multinational organisation, known for its very active financial support of the US left, actively interfering in the running of a democratically elected country – to wit organising protests aimed specifically at that self-same government, with the avowed intent of forcing said government to change its policies.
To me, to do such activity would seem to be perilously close to sedition, an action defined as being ‘ a factious commotion in a state, not amounting to an insurrection: the stirring up of such an insurrection; such offences against the state as have the like tendency with but do not amount to treason’ (Annandale. C, ed. Home Study Dictionary. London: Peale Press 1964, p.656). Sedition is, as far as I am aware, still an offence in New Zealand.
I was also extremely interested in the very evident anger shown by a very large woman from Thames, who was waxing-lyrical about the destruction that would happen if the Coromandel was mined.
I would suggest that, given her very striking and obvious hatred of all things mining, either the lady simply doesn’t know her local history, and is unaware that her town was at one time the biggest gold mining center in New Zealand, and that if it hadn’t been for gold mining per se, there would be no Thames, or she has some sort of ‘vested interest’ – possibly illegal, in making very sure that teh Thames isn’t either actively prospected or mined. Given the high unemployment within the town and the ease with which marijuana is available within its environs, this is not such an impossibility.
Finally a simple question to all those who protested:
New Zealand is currently borrowing 240 million dollars a week just to stay ‘viable’.
The country has large mineral deposits which could substantially lower that amount, if not remove it completely.
IF the anti-mining people do NOT want mining, what do they propose to do to reduce or eliminate this borrowing – and how would they go about doing so, given that Greenpeace, despite being the evident ‘organiser’ of the entire operation (and not short of funds BTW – its’s not poor!!) will never supply the needed $240 miiliion per week as that would affect their annual profits.
(Note: This is a serious question, so lets hear a serious, considered reply from those who have been hitherto so vociferously anti-mining).
Exactly how DO you propose to solve this weekly $240 million borrowing – and how quickly could it be implemented?
As I said, serious answers please – ‘anti’s’ put your money where your mouth is, and let’s hear your solutions.
Thanks.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 9:11 pm
so the left are hailing this as some sort of victory?
20,000 left wing nutbars march against mining. thats under 2% of the population in auckland. so thats about a third of green voters?!
big. fucking. deal.
i missed the “event” as i was in china.
china.. a giant factory.. its just dirty and gross… yet, they dont have an ETS? what gives?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 9:11 pm
Black Paul
The only thing marching ever improved was group co-ordination when out for a stroll.
Votes my friend thats what count, you can march to kingdom come and nothing will change , and as I said the infantile attention seeking wankers that the TV choose to show last night did nothing but show themselves up as infantile wankers having their 15 seconds . There is rather a large silent majority in this country who loathe that type of display., a lot of who are giving the preent govt a lead in the polls with daylight second
And Reid is spot on. no one doing any digging
WE dont deserve a conservation estate in this country not one run by DOC anyway..
DOC have this thing about preservation not conservation, you can still preserve somethings and use it for multiple purposes
Went spotlighting with the kids last night killing the possums and as we do most weeks noticed the amount of conservation land that has been allowed to revert to blackberry its bloody disgusting, all their excuses about the native eventually winning over the weeds is so much shit.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 9:13 pm
Komata said: IF the anti-mining people do NOT want mining, what do they propose to do to reduce or eliminate this borrowing…
And, can you tell me Komata, just how much money the mining of Great Barrier, Coromandel and Paparoa will bring to the government to reduce that deficit?
Gerry doesn’t seem to be able to, so over to you.
Oh, and while you are doing the calculations, you might want to calculate how much will be lost from tourism revenue by turning these pristine places into eyesores?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 9:14 pm
Komata.
Excellent post, and far too logical and uninteresting to tree huggers.
The quasi-communists are far happier fomenting unrest, sedition, and revolution.
They don’t like reasonable democratically elected Government that is visibly centrist.
They want Revolution and the ability to be holier than thou. First change the revolution will bring is no doubt shower pressure regulation.
Even having those push me pull me hand carts for the crappy narrow guage railways so much beloved in the silent movies.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 9:16 pm
Komata
The best comment posted all day, outstanding, its that good nobody “left “will even attempt to answer your points made because you’ve got them buggered
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 9:16 pm
dime said: …thats under 2% of the population in auckland. so thats about a third of green voters?!
Without checking your figures, I suspect it will be far less than a third of Green voters next time around.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 9:19 pm
I see it did not take long for Hone and the Maori to start sticking out their hands for the seabed and shore ownership.
Put me down for that protest march to stop them going into the hands of the Maori.
That’s one open pit mine that is bad for NZ.
The open Maori hand.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 9:29 pm
Excellent
We have Toad answering a question with a question , thats OK diversity and all , but then the KKK turn up in the guise of Robert Black , WTF night all
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 9:30 pm
All this to the fevered and breathless coverage of the usual gaggle of media packagers.
Actually, I think it’s pretty clear that the newspapers at least completely failed to anticipate how big this was going to be. The Herald’s reporting and photographs on the day were all from NZPA — which was shockingly lazy given that the march pretty much went past their office window. It’s kind of doesn’t matter if this was 30, 40 or 50k — it’s a very big march by historical standards, and it came together with relatively little media coverage.
Meanwhile, to compare, the EFA march and the so-called “March for Democracy” pulled hundreds and 4000 people respectively, after huge private spending, intense media coverage and in the EFA protest’s case, something approaching a sponsorship from the Herald. Interesting.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 9:42 pm
Komata at 9.03 – brilliant.
Vote:Do you live seven kilometres south of Hikutaia, to have a name like that?
The Komata reef was never ever anything like the Witwatersrand reef but still yielded plenty of ounces.
Seriously though; this protest was brilliantly organised using the net and social web sites in a co-ordinated user friendly manner. The fact that they are all bulldust is indisputable. I really do wish that their superb organising abilities could be put to better use; like somehow reducing our country’s need to borrow $240mil per week.
May 2nd, 2010 at 9:44 pm
“Interesting.”
I agwee, Wussell.
It’s weally weally important that we save the enviwonment and the twees and evewything so that evewyone can dance and sing and play happiwy amonst the gweat big twees and if that means no-one makes any money whatsoever, well that just serves them wight doesn’t it, those gweat bit meanies.
Sewiouswy Wussell, that’s about the state of your argument. Care to embellish?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 9:47 pm
You are making some pretty big claims here. Can you provide any kind of proof or reference on how much mineral wealth is in those proposed sites and by how much it will reduce that borrowing?
So far there haven’t seen any solid numbers or calculations provided by Gerry Brownlee to actually underpin such claims.
“Mining Schedule 4 land will reduce our borrowing” has been just spin and wishful thinking so far.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 9:48 pm
Ha ha, Toad thinks that the people are going to rise up and vote for a Green government, Toad must think that mining is such a big issue that the people will overlook the other things that come with a Green government.
Higher and higher taxes
Vote:Complete state control of our lives
Free drugs for our kids
A 100% increase in benefit levels for bludgers
Violent criminals roaming the streets
Second class citizenship for all non Maori
Petrol at $5.00 a litre
A ban on private transport
A PM called Wussell.
May 2nd, 2010 at 9:48 pm
Anyone know if Horomia stopped off at McDonalds along the way for a few burgers?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 9:57 pm
bruv – and don’t forget that it the Greens had had their way, that kiddie porn scum Daniel Moore would have got a maximum sentence of 2 years rather than the 4½ years he received on Friday.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:15 pm
shouldnt wussell be more worried about mining in australia?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:19 pm
No mining overseas, but still looked like the May day protests around the world drew big crowds.
Just the normal anarchists, liberals and unionists smashing everything in sight including police officers and public property.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:25 pm
He tried to be.. but no one took any notice. Then he discovered a new life in the South Seas Socialist Nirvana, and things really took off.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:26 pm
Toad said:
“And, can you tell me Komata, just how much money the mining of Great Barrier, Coromandel and Paparoa will bring to the government to reduce that deficit?”
Toad you are one of the most horrible obsequious little pukes that visits this place.
You know full well it is not about the money that is returned to the gummint, it is about the opportunities created for the populace, that stops the gummint needing to borrow $240mm/week.
But, horrible little green pieces of shit like you would never let the facts or the truth get in the way of your goal of turning us into the next North Korea, now would you.
You’re as bad as that stupid bitch robyn malcolm going on about mining coal to burn in power stations, yet, next to no New Zealand coal is burnt to generate electricity, it is used for steel making. Putting all the bullshit and spin on saying the mined coal is going to be burnt, creating more CO2 releases, goes way further than saying something boring like: We could use the fantastic quality New Zealand coal to build more clean technologies such as wind generation, or better still in my opinion, nuclear plants.
You lot with your lies, innuendo, and duplicity are amongst the lowest of the low. In fact, even lower than pieces of shit such as philip ure, as with your policies, you’re destroying more people.
Everyone who was at that march yesterday, whom receives assistance by way of benefit, be it WFF, dole, what have you from the gummint, should be at their local WINZ office come 8am tomorrow morning renouncing their benefit. As they clearly do not want NZ to have any sort of economic future, whereby their benefits can be maintained.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:36 pm
big bruv said:
“….Petrol at $5.00 a litre….”
Can’t wait for this one bruv, as working in oil + gas, it will mean my already obscene daily rates are even higher, and all the poor people will be off the road. They don’t pay taxes anyway, so they shouldn’t be allowed to use them. Let them eat cake (or take the bus to work).
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 10:53 pm
How about you provide some solid numbers around your claims instead of going off some silly nonsensical rant.
How much opportunity will that mining on schedule 4 land create and how much will it reduce the $240m/week?
Vote:Shouldn’t you do some analysis before you do something like that? Where are those numbers?
May 2nd, 2010 at 10:54 pm
The Left turn out in force to insist that the government keeps New Zealand poor. Great achievement.
As with all environmental issues, they totally overreact to a sensible plan to investigate one possible way to make us more able to afford decent medicines, schools, infrastructure etc. and keep our kids from becoming Australians.
At the same time, I’m sure the same 50,000 geniuses will be all for the same government becoming the only government in the world to punish its people with a climate tax that will drive up the price of everything while reducing carbon dioxide not one jot.
The best thing the government could do would be to give the Auckland marchers one way air tickets to whichever country would have them and import some people with an ability to think clearly.
New Zealand has become the Greece of the South Pacific – morally and financially moribund, but with a population who rise up at the first sign of any positive solution.
Now watch the Nats cave in to Lucy once again.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:01 pm
eszett, do a search on my posts previously on mining. You will find all you are asking for, where I have laid out facts and figures and clearly explained all of this before. Toad even agreed with me, at one point, that is why the little puke is so easy to abhor, because all he is doing is spinning lies and mistruths that he knows are such.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:03 pm
John Ansell.
So very succinct.
The ‘Deadheads’ just want to drag everyone one down to a base level.
Then they can manipulate events to their benefit, control outcomes, rise above the proletariat, whilst using their industry and support to
take over the rest of the populace. Then they award themselves all the trinkets for being so very clever and ‘better’.
ScumbagBastards.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:04 pm
John Ansell said:
“The best thing the government could do would be to give the Auckland marchers one way air tickets to whichever country would have them and import some people with an ability to think clearly.”
Comment of the day John!
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:23 pm
Funny thing is that the homes that lot live in are likely to be more toxic than the mining they protest. Perhaps we need a “Rest of NZ” march over the toxic spores Auckland’s leaky homes send our way in a good northerly. It would be about as meaningful I suspect.
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:29 pm
DPF, you are purposefully clouding the debate with this post.
You know full well that the land proposed to be mined is schedule 4 “high-value” conservation land. Not all national parks are schedule 4, these are the areas that were approved during the previous 9 years of Labour government (non schedule 4).
Coal may feature highly in these areas, depending on what the “stocktake” reports back.
The protest on Saturday shows that mining in general is a serious issue for New Zealanders today, we want to keep our clean green / 100% pure image and do not wish to trade it for few economic benefits.
The current National government is out of touch with the population on this issue (despite what the kiwiblog spinsters may say).
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:47 pm
“depending on what the “stocktake” reports back”
Question is for all those currently opposed, mj; why make your mind up before “the stocktake reports back”?
Or are you just being hysterical?
Vote:May 2nd, 2010 at 11:54 pm
I did, but I couldn’t find much of quality there. You make some very broad assumptions and guesstimates, but you still cannot put any number on what such a operation would be in benefits.
Truth is the government cannot either, otherwise they would have gone hard out with them.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 12:01 am
@reid
The protest is opposing mining on schedule 4 high-value conservation land, the protest is valid despite the report of the stocktake.
The proposals are likely to be based on fore knowledge of the mineral wealth of these areas, you wouldn’t risk this level of public outcry on a proposal that had a high level of uncertainty of the mineral payback.
And hiistory tells us that ‘proposals’ generally turn into reality fairly quickly.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 12:07 am
It would be nice if you could prove that the mining that was protested against would do anything to substantially improve our wealth over the long term. It’s a mere 7000 ha on schedule 4 land. That would suddenly make us all rich?
So you are unhappy with some people exercising their democratic right and expressing an opinion, you think it’s so bad and terrible here and your only suggestion is for these people to leave.
People with that kind of attitude have lost on any sensible arguments. Is that your vision of democracy and dialogue? If you disagree with me, better leave the country?
It’s the bottom of the barrel argument.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 12:26 am
So how is that Referendum coming along? managed to get anywhere near as much as the last one? or are you just going to threaten to smash up property if you don’t get your way?
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 4:24 am
This march is a text book case of how the left operates and how the left tilting media support them in their propoganda. First off the march is timed for May Day so that guarantees every lefty in NZ will turn out – the same usual coalition of peaceniks, greenies, unionists etc Im sure Sue Bradford and John Minto and their ‘rent a crowd’ will have been there. Then some useful local official will exaggerate the attendence which one media outlet will report and the rest follow like lemmings.
Second – they exaggerate and outright lie. They take the worst aspects on OLD mining techniques and extrapolate the spectre of gaping open cast mines with a mountain of tailings onto the most remote and pristine landscape in the DOC Section 4 lands. THAT becomes what the government is trying to do. Then they understate massively the positive economic spin offs by focussing narrowly on the royalty revenues to the IRD and forget the substantial economic multiplier effect through the entire economy of large private sector investment. Finally they inspire fear in the hearts of the masses that suddenly NZ’s tourism industry will collapse and foreign exchange earnings from this will dry up because the world will suddenly deem the country unworthy of ever visiting because a few thousand hectares of remote land might have some mining going on UNDERNEATH the bush.
The net result of course is a public backlash against the proposal because the media will breathlessly report the left’s position on all these aspects of mining as gospel truth. The protest movement also know that middle NZ is silent and distracted by the normal tasks of life and child rearing and are less inclined to march in the streets. Because opposing capitalism in any way it might possibly benefit the society is to be opposed, the left are always highly motivated to turn out in sufficient numbers to create the impression of a mass movement opposed to these proposals. The media does the rest by helping shape the narrative that eventually takes hold.
The result: NZ falls further and further behind our neighbours Australia who get the importance of mining to their economy. NZ is a democracy and so if the will of the people is to oppose this relatively modest proposal involving minute amounts of land on which any mining proposal would have to pass RMA restrictions, then the proposals will undoubtedly be shelved. The left can congratulate itself on ‘people power’ and NZers can go to bed at night knowing that they are so marvellously green. But as the decades move on and NZ moves ever closer to Greece as it attempts to emulate true 1st world economies like Australia with waning tax revenues and ever more jobs killing initiatives (like cap and trade) and as even more of our brightest and best flee to jusristictions with greater opportunities, NZ becomes little more than a pleasant green tourist destination for the middle class of the OECD countries that NZ used to rub shoulders with and a place for wealthy expats to spend a pleasant summer.
The left’s control over the narrative in NZ is such that the needed reforms that would truly lift NZ back into the top 10 of the OECD would never be passed – even by what are described as centre-right governments. This is far bigger than a mining protest. As each year goes by since I left NZ, I sense the standard of living gap between NZ and the US, Australia and Canada (3 countries I do business in as well as NZ) growing slightly wider. Argentina was one of the world’s wealthiest nations in 1900 – 100 years later it is a basket case. In 1950 NZ was only topped by Switzerland – by 2020 we will be at or near the bottom of the OECD and be rubbing shoulders with the Greeks and the Portugese economically speaking. How long can those countries provide government benefits for their people in line with their wealthier European neighbours? It can be measured in months not years and yet both countries have successive socialists governments to thank for their dire plight.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 4:28 am
The edit function only seems to allow for the first 2 paragraphs to be editable. The 2nd sentence of the 3rd para should read: “Because capitalism…” – I have two ‘opposings’ in the same sentence. David – is there any way the edit function can be fixed to allow editing of an entire post?
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 6:07 am
@mattyroo May 2nd, 2010 at 10:26 pm
Always a pleasant exchange when you come into bat, matty – you must be the ultimate sledger.
But your ad hominem attacks don’t disguise your lack of an argument.
Mining doesn’t create many jobs these days – the days of thousands of unskilled labourers down the pit are long gone. Most of the jobs in mining involve skills using specialised equipment – skills that unemployed New Zealanders don’t have. So like Australia (which I presume from your blogname you know a bit about), the industry would be reliant on bringing in skilled migrant labour who are prepared to work in a high injury risk industry in isolated locations.
Even Minerals Council of Australia CEO Mitch Hooke admits that:
And the mining companies will be largely, if not entirely, foreign owned, so it is not as if the profits would be retained in New Zealand either.
So much for the “opportunities for the populace”.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 6:17 am
Toad
So the 35% standard of living and wages/salaries gap between Australia and New Zealand comes from nowhere? Just a fluke or legislative slight of hand maybe. The mineral wealth has nothing to do with it according to you.
Why then is the average Australian so much better off than the average NZer? Why is the gap between the two countries widening? What would toad do to close that gap? How precisely has the Australian populace been disadvantaged by evil foreign owned mining companies?
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 6:34 am
mjanderson said
mjanderson – The Good Life was a work of fiction, not a documentary.
If there is indeed gold in them them there hills, it would be economic lunacy not to extract it.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 6:53 am
kiwi in america said:
“Toad
So the 35% standard of living and wages/salaries gap between Australia and New Zealand comes from nowhere? Just a fluke or legislative slight of hand maybe. The mineral wealth has nothing to do with it according to you.”
KIA – Surely you know that the ONLY reason Australians have a 35% better standard of living and higher salaries than New Zealanders, is that the minimum wage is higher in Australia…..
How can you not know this?
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 7:01 am
It’s now 0700 on ther 3rd of May 2010
I posted the followintg at 1900 on the 2 May 2010
‘Exactly how DO you propose to solve this weekly $240 million borrowing – and how quickly could it be implemented?
As I said, serious answers please – ‘anti’s’ put your money where your mouth is, and let’s hear your solutions’.
Aside from the expected reaction from Toad, NO greenies have come up with a reply to my question
COME ON ‘GREENIES’ – WHERE ARE YOU AND WHAT DO INTEND TO DO??????????
(Sorry for shouting but where ARE these people?)
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 7:09 am
toad said:
“Mining doesn’t create many jobs these days”
This is so far from the truth it is laughable, besides we don’t want unskilled labour down a hole slaving at a coalface, that is when accidents happen and people get killed. We want to use the best technology and the best skills to operate that technology. You’re right, these are skills that most of the completely useless deadbeats on our dole don’t have. But toad, what skills do these deadshits have??? Other than rooting and breeding and selling drugs?
We want jobs for our skilled people, we want to better train young people, in things like apprenticeships. We’ve got to grow a more skilled workforce, if the deadshits on the dole don’t want to aspire to that, then, FUCKEM!
Guess what, we could even attract home some of the talent we have lost to Oz over the last few years, whom have upskilled over there, on the backs of the Ozzie mining companies. Furthermore, this return of talent, would bring home their capital – foreign export earnings which we desperately need.
toad also went on to say:
“And the mining companies will be largely, if not entirely, foreign owned, so it is not as if the profits would be retained in New Zealand either.”
Yes toad, some mining companies might be foreign owned, but we have to accept that, what about the New Zealand companies operating around the world???? Oh that’s right, you want to nationalise all of them, because that way you filthy communists have a better chance of getting your grubby little maulers on their money.
But what about all the NZ mining companies that operate locally, that could participate in a lot of this??? The biggest of these, and the most likely to benefit from any mining, being Solid Energy, which you should love, because it is an SOE. Others like PRC, Oceana Gold (partly NZ owned) et al.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 7:13 am
A valid question Komata, but nowhere near as important as asking the GOVERNMENT what they intend to do. The marchers only have their feet and banners, those that can make a difference are the ones who should really be answering.
Mining in some places is just one possible option, but specific cases have not yet been made. So far the argument for mining has been very poorly presented. That is far more important to me than a (significant) number of marchers.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 7:47 am
I’m assuming the marchers are mostly NIMBY anti-mining as opposed to being generically anti-mining. Without mining most of the people on this planet are dead. That cant be good.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 7:53 am
Agreed Pete ‘specific cases have not yet been made’ (yes, I actually DO agree with your point), but if you don’t know what you’ve got in the metaphorical ‘pantry’ how can you know what you’re going to make for dinner?
What seems to have been ignored (deliberately perhaps – one wonders), is that the NZ Government has after all, merely indicated that it actually wants to FIND OUT what mineral resources New Zealand has, and proceed from there. Carefully-orchestrated mass-hysteria has followed, and Nimby-ism has bred its own self-sustaining snowball. I am of teh opinion that teh Governmetn of any country has aperfect right to know what it possesses, especially when it is faced with a $240 millionj a week debt; if you were in a similar situationm, even domestically, and your ‘mortgage was over-due, wouldn’t YOU want to know too? Wouldn’t yopu want to know what you can sell – just in case it comes to foreclosure on your house?
I certainly would, and suspect you would too.
As I said, the government merely wants to know what its got on hand – hysteria and manipulation has taken over after that.
Makes one wonder about agenda’s really . . .
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 8:05 am
mattyroo, KiwiGreg: I doubt many of the marchers were against all mining – I’m certainly not. We were marching against mining on Schedule 4 land, not against mining generally. Of course there is case for some mining of natural resources (although not gold – there is enough of that above ground already to meet every industrial purpose we are likely to utilise it for in the next thousand years) – the issue is where the mining occurs.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 8:15 am
Ok then toad, if you’re not against mining per se, why are you using lies and mistruths to obfusacate the issue, as you continuously do?
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 8:28 am
Goodness. Even by the usual low-on-fact-and-high-on-invective standard of discussions here, this one’s a doozy.
I didn’t go on the march. Personally, I was prepared to hear the government out on this one: to hear the compelling argument for mining some of the land deemed of exceptional conservation value; to hear about the extraordinary returns such a difficult decision might bring; to hear about the how the risks would be mitigated.
I haven’t heard that. The case for mining, say, Great Barrier Island looks so spectacularly weak that most people seem to think it was only presented as part of a bait-and-switch. That “kick me” sign on Gerry Brownlee’s back? He put it there himself.
You can froth and foam all you like. This is a poorly considered policy that a huge number of New Zealanders do not like at all. And they turned out to say so in numbers an order of magnitude greater than the astroturfed demonstrations you all got so excited about it.
You can start your frothing again now …
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 8:39 am
Komata , I agree with you with this re the protesters. Some don’t like mining. Some see an opportunity to score political points regardless of the merits. Etc.
But Brownlee/National have left the door (and windows) wide open for wondering what their intentions (agenda) really are as well.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 8:55 am
mining..eh..?
just look what it’s done for waihi..
..eh..?
and ask yrself..
..do we want more of the same/those ‘benefits’..?..
what was it..?..a 1% royalty the gummint gets..?
..and we get to clean up the tailings..?
or do the miners just stuff them back in the hole..when they have finished extracting..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 9:09 am
Good morning Phillip, I wondered when you would arrive . .
Re your statement ..mining..eh..? ‘just look what it’s done for waihi..’
Would you mind telling me /us exactly what ‘mining (presumably gold mining) ‘has done for waihi..’. ?
Your tone indicates that whatever mining HAS done for that town it is a negative, so I (and doubtless others) will be very, very interested as to what these ‘negatives’ would be / are – ‘the facts ma’m, just the facts . . . ‘
Over to you.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 9:19 am
ok..
aside from that fucken great big hole in the middle of their town..?
..and the houses at risk of falling tnto that hole..?
well..after decades of the benefits for locals from mining…waihi is one of those/our pockets of dire poverty..
..it has some of the worst bad-stats of such areas…
will that do for starters..?
and let’s not mention the tailings..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 9:21 am
Nice russ, well said.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 9:33 am
All this talking when we could be drilling. Come on and get the party started!
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 9:37 am
What seems to have been ignored (deliberately perhaps – one wonders), is that the NZ Government has after all, merely indicated that it actually wants to FIND OUT what mineral resources New Zealand has,
Nice try.
Vote:WE ALREADY KNOW!!!
And we have known for 100 odd years, what? did you think people just stumbled upon a bit of gold or coal here and there and then started a mine?
The geology of this country is well understood, the government “finding out” is more about feasibility studies on how what we know is there might be extracted. It is about finding a way to let the vandals have their way like they are currently on the West Coast with weak monitoring and wet bus ticket fines.
May 3rd, 2010 at 10:08 am
If we already know what is there then why the hell are we wasting time Shunda?
One would hope that this government has enough balls to ignore the mad rantings of a few luddites and second rate celebrities.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 10:54 am
Phillip
Thank you for your reply – it is most enlightening (though IMHO your use of obscenities does somewhat lower the tone of your argument and raise questions about your seriousness – especially as I expected a reasoned debate)
To preceed through your comments:
aside from that fucken great big hole in the middle of their town..?
Reply: The ‘hole’ you mention is actually 600 ft deep which is granted somewhat large. However when mining is completed, it will become an extemely attractive lake – landscaped and developed at the mining company’s expense. Note that carefully – teh local council has not had to contribute. A smaller lake existed on the same site before and the new one will be an asset to the town and district.
..and the houses at risk of falling tnto that hole..?
reply: Unfortunately such is not actually the case. There is no risk of this occuring, and I strongly suspect your expectations of such an occurance are based on what happened when the ‘Milking Cow’ section of the Welcome Reef subsided in 2001. The ‘cow had a long history of subsidence and this was merely the latest manifestation of an interesting geological abberation. That event occured some 4-500 yards away from the current working s and has nothing to do with them
well..after decades of the benefits for locals from mining…waihi is one of those/our pockets of dire poverty..
..it has some of the worst bad-stats of such areas…
reply: The ‘Dire Poverty’ in Waihi is due to one simple word ‘DRUGS’!!!!!!!! Marijuana is freely and cheaply available in Waihi and it is this and this fact ALONE that is creating poverty in Waihi. The poverty is entirely self-inflicted and in the hands of the users. Not unreasonably the mining company insists on drug-tersts for all employees and if candidates fail thesetests because of their habit, it is not theesponsibility of the potential employer. THAT and ONLY that is the reason for the ‘dire poverty’. to which you refer. The national l media do not of course consider that such things are of interest.
will that do for starters..?
Reply: No, Phillip, it won’t do. The work is there, there is locally a labour shortage, yet the addled-brained locals don’t want it.
and let’s not mention the tailings..eh..?
Reply: Why not? The ‘tailings’ (the waste from the ore-extraction process) to which you are referring, are very securely contained behind what are known as ‘bunds’ (think giant levies or river-side stop-banks). These are structurally extremely well engineered and securely-contructed, with a ‘shelf-life’ deemed to be in teh centuries-range. This ‘over-engineering’ was insisted-upon when the original proposal to reopen teh old Martha workings was submitted. As it was the first of its type in New Zealand for decades the process was extremely tough and rigorous. The tailings dams are constructed at company expense, with ferocious penalties potentially in place if anything should go wrong. They are also constantly monitored and will continue to be so long after the company has finally finished its work. These are of course the sorts of minor details which the ‘eco-scarers’ who peddle the anti-messages choose to ignore because it doesn’t suit their own personal and political agendas.
The ‘facts’ are frequently not what appears in the media – or out of the mouths of those who speak for ‘every New Zealander’. Sometimes trhey are significantly different. . .
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 11:34 am
reply: The ‘Dire Poverty’ in Waihi is due to one simple word ‘DRUGS’!!!!!!!! Marijuana is freely and cheaply available in Waihi and it is this and this fact ALONE that is creating poverty in Waihi. The poverty is entirely self-inflicted and in the hands of the users.
Gosh, that’s convenient for your argument, isn’t it? It wouldn’t be, say, the fact that 87% of the mining operation’s spending is done outside Waihi?
I think it might be just a wee bit likely that the town has been hollowed in more ways than one. Would you live in a town with a huge opencast mine at its centre? One resident was quoted thus this year: “Only the poverty stricken who can’t afford to leave, or who can’t sell their homes, remain.”
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 11:51 am
No Russell, not convenient, merely factual – make of that what you will.’ ‘(The facts Ma’am – just the facts . . .’ )
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 11:57 am
Well, actually it’s according to Don Brash:
http://www.2025taskforce.govt.nz/firstreport/01.htm
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 12:24 pm
50k, 40k, 20K, whatever – its not that many people if you say it quickly. We all saw this unprecedented display of anti government feeling coming a mile off anyway – and accordingly, we’re only a little bit freaked out by it.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 12:31 pm
gee..maybe the fact the aussie unions said..’no you’re fucken not!’..to much of the rightwing revolution..
wheras ours just passed back the vaseline..asked them to ‘be gentle’..
..and then went and stood in the corner..
..and waited for their knighthoods/board appointments..?
d’yareckon that cd have anything at all to do with our current low-wage-economy..?
d’yareckon..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 12:33 pm
eszett
So lets see – the IMF comparison of international per capita GDP in 2009 (http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2010/01/weodata/weorept.aspx?)
has Australia’s GDP at USD$38,911 and NZ’s at USD$26,708 or a difference of 45%
The World Bank’s similar statistics for 2008 (http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATASTATISTICS/Resources/GDP_PPP.pdf)
has Australia at USD$35,677 and NZ at USD$27,027 or a difference of 32%.
If you average the two figures you get 38% so Don Brash was UNDERSTATING the GDP difference when he said 35% but then of course the IMF and the World Bank are evil capitalist institutions who no one can trust huh eszett.
Since neither NZ’s small size nor the Australian mining industry would apparently explain this wide and growing GDP gap, perhaps you would care to enlighten us to why we have this gap.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 12:37 pm
Last para should read “Since to you neither…”
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 12:37 pm
Phool
I ask you again, what right do you have to talk about a “low wage” economy?
Are you seriously suggesting that we should give you a pay rise?
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 12:38 pm
and maybe the fact that aussie govts did not declare war on their poorest/weakest..and strip away their benefits..?
(that labour..yto their eternal shame..failed to restore..)
creating our world-beating child poverty rates..?
d’yareckon that cd have anything at all to do with our current low-wage/heading-third-world-economy..?
d’yareckon..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 12:46 pm
Never mind all that Phool, I want to know what right you have to talk about a low wage economy?
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 12:48 pm
@ big bruv – smackdown! When was the last time Phil earned a wage?
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 12:57 pm
So phil
Lets compare deregulation between Australia and NZ 1982 – 1995. Both countries floated their dollars, deregulated their finance and banking sectors, both deregulated transport and aviation sectors, both eased labour market restrictions albeit NZ more aggresively with the ECA but the ERA in 1999 brought the two countries back pretty close to each other, both slashed subsidies to the agriculture sector and both cut tariffs on imported goods. Both cut taxes and shifted the burden from direct to indirect taxes (Australia has been more aggressive with tax cuts in recent years).
Are you trying to tell us that the 1991 benefit cuts (beneficiaries account for less than 12% of the the population and non retirement benefit payments an even smaller percentage of GDP) are the main reason why Australia is 35% wealthier than NZ? Your Te Puke thunder is stronger than I thought or were you part of the Switched On bust after growing your own.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 1:01 pm
no..kia..i said our weak union leadership..and a non-labour labour govt were the main factors..
..the assault on benificiaries is a sub-thread..which i repeat..’has led to our worldbeating child poverty rates’..
got that..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 1:06 pm
“..(beneficiaries account for less than 12% of the the population and non retirement benefit payments an even smaller percentage of GDP)..”
dosen’t that beg the question ..why you and the other knuckle-dragging/mouth-breathing simians around these parts..
..seem to have them as yr favourite targets..?
yr scapegoats..?..you seem to blame them for ..just about everything..?
..eh..?
with yr own words you have demonstrated what fools you all are..
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 1:10 pm
So all we need is stronger unions to force companies to pay higher wages huh phil. From what and where? Oh that’s right NZ companies are so much more profitable than their Aussie counterparts they are hoarding their profits and lining their shareholders pockets so much more than Australian companies do. Oh hang on its those selfish Australian companies that operate in NZ that are doing it.
Australian companies pay higher wages because THEY MAKE MORE MONEY. They are more diversified, more productive, sell to a larger base and sell products globally (such as gold, magnesium, zinc, iron, oil, copper etc etc) that fetch high prices.
If “weak union leadership” was the answer to NZs low wage economy why didnt the previous LABOUR government (who after all come from the Labour movement) just pass laws to replicate the amazing wage fixing powers of the Australian unions.
This is the fantasy world of the left.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 1:14 pm
@Komata
I would have thought marijuana would have caused poverty if it were expensive, rather than free or cheap.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 1:22 pm
The more available it is the more potzombies there will be. That affects productivity, work ethic, income and therefore it can affect poverty levels (potpoverty?).
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 1:37 pm
toad, I see you’re still floating around here, so, please do answer my question I posed to you earlier….
If you’re not against mining per se, why are you using lies and mistruths to obfusacate the issue, as you continuously do?
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 1:43 pm
Toad, Toad, Toad. . .
I am surprised at that observation from YOU of all people given your group’s devotion to the weed .
‘As Pete has correctly stated: ‘The more available it is the more potzombies there will be. That affects productivity, work ethic, income and therefore it can affect poverty levels (potpoverty?).’, and due to its very addictive nature (which I am not going to debate here) those who are already ‘down’ (and on a benefit) go even further down the ladder as what little they do receive anyway, goes to feed the habit. The whole thing becomes a self-perpetuating circle; teh poor on a benefit meant to help them gaina step up, using said benefit to fuel the habit which makes them ill/sick, which meanss that they have to go on a benefit because they cannot work, a benefit which gives them money which . . . and so on, round and round and round.
‘Expensive’ is of course, a purely relative and subjective term (Different strokes for different folks), as I believe you are aware.
And because you ARE here and because you represent the ‘anti-mining’ group and your people (the Green’s) apparently have all the answers, how about answering the question I have already asked twice before in this debate – the most rerent time being at 0700 this morning (3 May 2010):
‘IF the anti-mining people do NOT want mining, what do they propose to do to reduce or eliminate this borrowing – and how would they go about doing so, given that Greenpeace, despite being the evident ‘organiser’ of the entire operation (and not short of funds BTW – its’s not poor!!) will never supply the needed $240 miiliion per week as that would affect their annual profits.
(Note: This is a serious question, so lets hear a serious, considered reply from those who have been hitherto so vociferously anti-mining).
Exactly how DO you propose to solve this weekly $240 million borrowing – and how quickly could it be implemented?
As I said, serious answers please – ‘anti’s’ put your money where your mouth is, and let’s hear your solutions.’
Your reply is awaited with interest – and not just by me.
Over to you Toad, (and please don’t vanish as you have done before. The question will always wait, and wait, and wait – and people will draw thweir own conclusions. . . )
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 2:21 pm
Komata – I’m not saying I don’t want mining. I’m saying I don’t want mining on Schedule 4 land. There will be other places I won’t want mining too no doubt, but I have no problem as a matter of principle with mining in areas that are not of great ecological significance.
I do have a problem with mining gold – we don’t need any more. I do have a problem with mining low-grade coal to use as fuel – there are more environmentally sustainable options.
I don’t think mining is some silver bullet to our economy, as Gerry and many here seem to pretend, but I do believe mining can make a contribution to economic prosperity. But let’s do it responsibly, and not ruin places of great intrinsic (and tourism) value forever.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 2:25 pm
That’s the crux. What’s intrinsically valuable to you is not necessarily to others, and vice-versa.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 2:28 pm
“But let’s do it responsibly, and not ruin places of great intrinsic (and tourism) value forever.”
How many Kiwis ever visit these places Toad?…..bugger all, start mining and start doing it as soon as possible.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 2:45 pm
Why? In the last year years the gold spot price has risen from $255/oz to over $1200/oz.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 2:45 pm
Come on toad answer the two questions that have been posed to you:
Komata: Exactly how DO you propose to solve this weekly $240 million borrowing – and how quickly could it be implemented?
and
Myself: If you’re not against mining per se, why are you using lies and mistruths to obfusacate the issue, as you continuously do?
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 2:48 pm
edit: “In the last 10 years” …
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 3:09 pm
KIA, maybe you should ask Don Brash, it was his words that I quoted.
Vote:Well, the report that the task force he heads wrote, to be precise.
May 3rd, 2010 at 3:16 pm
Gezza might get hung out to dry on this….the show’s looking pretty close to over on his mining proposals. Cant see much political enthusiasm for this given foreshore and seabed, black budget, alcohol, Auckland etc. before xmas….
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 5:40 pm
eszett
Vote:What do YOU believe is the reason for the 35%+ standard of living gap and what should NZ do to close it?
May 3rd, 2010 at 6:35 pm
Toad
Come-on old chap, the questions are waiting – and so are the watchers . .
In case you don’t know what we’re on about here they are again. . .
Komata: Exactly how DO you propose to solve this weekly $240 million borrowing – and how quickly could it be implemented?
and
Mattyroo: If you’re not against mining per se, why are you using lies and mistruths to obfusacate the issue, as you continuously do?
Over to you – are you brave enough to actually answer them?
(You can run, but you won’t be able to stay away forever – we’re waiting . . .)
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 7:31 pm
Is mining the only thing that can help our economy out?
Every body keeps saying we have to mine to fix the economy.
Surely there is something else?
Or are we totally fucked with out mining?
I say if we can’t be a touch more creative than a single idea then we are fucked already.
The public doesnt want it so I say to the economists and back seat economists to start creating, utilise your time and come up with something else.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 8:35 pm
@menace 7:31pm
Good comment.
@Komata 6:35pm
Let’s start with an economic stimulus package lie the Green New Deal. Government investment to create jobs. Oh, and cancel the irresponsible tax cuts that bought National its votes wouldn’t be a bad idea either – fiscally stupid, and a significant reason for the deficit.
And mattyroo, I’m not obfuscating. I acknowledge that mining some minerals in some places has economic benefits. But not on Schedule 4 land thanks. That land has already been classified on the basis of scientific evidence as having of ecological significance that it shouldn’t be mined. Any decision to mine any of it needs to be based on a refutation of the evidence that had it classified under Schedule 4 in the first place. Brownlee has come up with not evidential basis to refute that evidence for any of the Coromandel, Great Barrier or Paparoa.
The ball should be in his court, not mine, in that regard.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 8:40 pm
So the Greens answer to the problem is to borrow and tax, yeah…that has worked really well in the UK and other parts of Europe aye Toad.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 8:45 pm
“Oh, and cancel the irresponsible tax cuts that bought National its votes wouldn’t be a bad idea either – fiscally stupid, and a significant reason for the deficit.”
Oh FFS toad, this line either shows you are lying, or no abosolutely nothing about economics in general (possibly both)
Required reading for people that think tax cuts have a “cost” (i.e every left wing politician in NZ, including most of the National party)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 8:50 pm
And btw toad- you do realise that the tax cuts included a decrease in the bottom rate from 19.5% to 12.5%?
So would you still class a tax cut to our lowest paid as irresponsible and stupid? Or is it only acceptable to whack it to the rich pricks?
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 9:04 pm
nick b: The Laffer Curve is based on neo-liberal economics, which I reject.
The premise underlying the Laffer Curve it is that people will avoid tax if tax rates are sufficiently high to give them an incentive to do so. But even with relatively low tax rates, compared to most Western European countries, New Zealanders still manage to avoid tax.
But a sufficiently tight regulatory regime, including a tax on capital gains and knocking the LAQC rort on the head, can prevent them from doing so.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 9:15 pm
hell, 12.75 just so it looks pretty, as if!
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 9:20 pm
“But even with relatively low tax rates, compared to most Western European countries, New Zealanders still manage to avoid tax.”
How is Greece getting on these days Toad?
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 9:27 pm
Did anyone catch Ms Clueless on Cambell?
She was telling us, with a flick of the hair, that the local kiwi population would die out completely if we mined a fraction of schedule 4. We’d be importing them from San Francisco Zoo, or something.
Ho-ho. With spokeswomen like these, Toad, who needs enemies?
What an uninformed, ranting twit.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 9:37 pm
@ big bruv 9:20 pm
And Ireland and Iceland. Recall they both went down the neo-lib route, and witness where that has got them.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 9:59 pm
Back to post.. subject.
So what were they marching against?
NZs economic recovery… and lower taxes.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 10:06 pm
“..So what were they marching against?…”
they were marching against the further desecration/despoiling of our environment..
..and this govts plans to go back to the industrial-past…
..and for selling our heritage to foreign mining companies..
..(and for a 1-2% royalty..on their profits..?)
do they think we are barking fucken mad..?
..to go for this..?
..but carry on..!..eh..?
and one-term-john it’ll be..
..eh..?
either key u-turns…or faces certain electoral defeat..
..either is good..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 10:36 pm
Were you Xena’s media advisor, Phil?
Because you appear to have the exact same baseless hysteria song-sheet.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 10:39 pm
“do they think we are barking fucken mad..?”
er…
seriously phil, why is making money for the country while paying careful operational and regulatory attention to the very best mining technology available, really really really bad?
I mean, people aren’t dumb, except for the actual morons but they’re all on sickness benefits so they don’t count.
But the rest of us, we’re not dumb.
We know, don’t we, how many beans make five?
Well I do, anyway.
Key and his merry band aren’t going to rape and pillage the pristine wetlands holding the lessor-spotted-warbler and that’s not because you lefties marched down Q St the other day but just because he’s not an f-ing moron.
Why is it that you (i.e. those who marched down Q St the other day) can’t distinguish between “let’s see what’s there” and “OMG, he’s going to fuck it up?”
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 10:43 pm
what is incorrect about the facts i laid out..?
and how..in anyones’ terms..is that a ‘good deal’..
(that’s without even going into therights and wrongs of the actual mining..
..you can just stop right there…
..at the how much we will b screwed over by foreign mining companies..
..sell our underground assets..for a 1-2% royalty on the profits..?
..feckin’ idjits..!
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 10:49 pm
we actually marched up queen st..
..and you are wrong on pretty much everything else..too..
1-2%..eh..?
..what a deal..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 10:52 pm
I must admit that I’ve felt uncomfortable about this direction taken by National for a while. We are not Australia, we do not have large chunks of land in the middle of nowhere that no one is too worried about if it gets mined.
Vote:We do have National Parks which I consider to be a national treasure for all. Not to mention the tourist dollars that come from them.
You can argue about the numbers all you want. 50 000? 40 000? 20 000? Who cares – what matters is that a significant amount of people got off their backsides and took a valuable part of their weekend leisure time (you can’t tell me they were all unemployed deadbeats) to protest about an issue they cared about. I don’t believe these people were ignorant – you don’t make such an effort if you don’t have an interest about an issue. It takes something of significance to jolt New Zealander’s into action. Well guess what? This is it.
If I was the National Government I would be taking notice. I really hope John Key has a chat to Gerry Brownlee and some back-tracking starts happening fast. We don’t really want to lose voters do we?
May 3rd, 2010 at 10:57 pm
“and how..in anyones’ terms..is that a ‘good deal’.”
How do you know phil, what’s under the ground? No-one’s said yet, as far as I know.
“..you can just stop right there…..at the how much we will b screwed over by foreign mining companies….sell our underground assets..for a 1-2% royalty on the profits..?”
How do you know phil, that that is what will happen? No-one’s said yet, as far as I know.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 11:01 pm
“what matters is that a significant amount of people got off their backsides and took a valuable part of their weekend leisure time (you can’t tell me they were all unemployed deadbeats) to protest about an issue they cared about.”
What actually happened is that a whole lot of people got all emotional about stuff they knew nothing about because they had no facts and reacted emotionally to a perception that a lot of 1920′s style steam-shovels would go in and start strip-mining Kiwi nesting grounds.
Which isn’t what will happen and wasn’t what was ever intended in the first place.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 11:01 pm
bc – that statement describes why NZ is sliding inexorably towards becoming a sleepy Polynesian economy. To retain power under MMP, our leaders continuously defer to factions left, right and centre thereby ensuring overall, and over time, that most of NZers are economical disenfranchised.
Notable exceptions to this slow train wreck are, you guessed it, the gold-plated civil-service pension holders who have their hands on the levers of power today, and on our diminished wealth tomorrow.
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 11:03 pm
that is the standard commission..
and when asked about that..key/brownlee don’t deny/address it..
..they just bang on about jobs-created/tax-paid..
..so..we can assume the/any royalties wd b the standard..eh..?
..that’s 1-2%..
..eh..?
almost laughable really..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 11:07 pm
“..so..we can assume the/any royalties wd b the standard..eh..?”
Really?
I doubt an idiot politician such as George Hawkins would take this amount of heat for a measly 1-2% phil, let alone astute politicians such as we have in the top jobs.
Perhaps you’re wrong.
Is that a possibility?
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 11:10 pm
Reid – whether there is a difference in perception or reality is not the point. What is the point is that this has got the potential to be a powder-keg issue. Elections are lost on less.
Vote:Is there not more important things the government could be doing? I really believe Labour could use this as an elec tion issue as there is a clear point of difference. And for every one person marching, there are 10 others that agree with them.
May 3rd, 2010 at 11:10 pm
why do key/brownlee not deny that wd b the rate..?..
and just swerve/avoid the question..?
..mmm..???
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 11:17 pm
Somewhere between Reid and Phil…u is the reallity..
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 11:18 pm
Anyway, time for sleep. But at 240 commnets and still going strong, it indicates that this is a passionate issue for people. Time for the National to put it to bed, which incidently is where I’m going now!!
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 11:20 pm
cd u turn out the light..?..ta..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 11:28 pm
RKBee: “Somewhere between Reid and Philu is the reallity”
This must be me then!
Vote:ok, now it really is goodnight…
May 3rd, 2010 at 11:29 pm
“whether there is a difference in perception or reality is not the point.”
uh, it’s actually precisely the point, bc. See, I’d put my environmentally friendly tree-hugging plant love-making credentials up against yours any day of the week. I think I commune with nature more often and far more vigorously that you will ever do in your wildest dreams. Wink.
And yet, even given that I’m a tree-loving, plant-hugging environmental lover par excellence, people still don’t seem to understand why I’m so very much in favour of large machinery elegantly extracting large mineral wealth from mother earth.
It’s called jobs. At the end of the day if they find mineral wealth under valuable land that has more than 8 zeroes after it, why not get it?
Lastly, what would either of you, phil or bc, say if the govt said:
“If we can’t mine, you can’t have your benefit. It’s one or the t’other. Which do you choose?”
Vote:May 3rd, 2010 at 11:55 pm
And I’ve just had another brain storm.
If 1 or 2 percent is all we get…… How much percent of total value does the mining company get in profit?
NZ has pristine beauty that is irreplaceable. Australia has thousands and thousands of kilometres of land that when mined is unnoticed.
What is the most logical way to make money out of mining?
NZ government forms a mining company gets permits and mines in Australia.
NZ keeps our beautiful treasures and makes even more money.
Vote:May 4th, 2010 at 4:51 am
phil has successfully derailed discussions by rabbitting on about the royalty percentage the government makes. Its not the main event, its the multiplier effect of new private sector investment which can be as high as 3 times the amount invested. If a mining company (NZ or foreign owned) invests $100m in a mine then the total spend through the economy is $300 million. The spin offs are employment of locals (who all pay PAYE and spend on food petrol clothing in local shops and there’s GST on all that), contractors buy equipment (more GST) and a raft of downstream companies hire staff and buy equipment and use materials (more PAYE and GST).
I repeat what was said earlier – modern mining techniques are not the open cast high impact mining techniques of yesteryear. For crying out loud any mining company would have to negotiate the strictures of the RMA BEFORE any mining could commence. That will involve endless appeals by greenies and druggies who live in house buses on the dole who roam NZ trying to kill projects via Environment Court appeals. So any mining proposal that survives this hostile appeals environment is going to be pretty darn water tight and as green as possible.
NZers seem to want it all – an environmental regulatory regime that kills almost anything that Greenpeace doesn’t like (which is pretty much any development since radical greens want us to ride bikes, use composting toilets and become vegans) and yet enjoy a 1st world standard of living where the government beneficently provides benefits to all who may need them. The ability to help the poor and disadvantaged come from taxes. Taxes are levied on ….businesses and on the wages of people employed by businesses. The wages of government workers dont count – because they are paid from the taxes on the productive sector. So the productive sector has to actually make a profit for the government to tax. If a regulatory regime becomes too hostile to profit then two things happen-profitable businesses become marginally profitable and the amount of tax they pay drops OR they move to a juristiction that is less hostile to profit – in the case of mining companies they move to Australia where they can operate in a predictable regulatory environment that ensures some reasonable profit and the NZ govt and economy get zip.
And so the Australians become the beneficiary of the multiplier effect I described. Mutiply that on a grand scale – ie billions and you get a small hint as to why Australia is more prosperous, why its govt can afford to tax its people less and still provide higher and more benefits and why its citizens wages and salaries (and thus standard of living) are higher than NZ.
NZ will get what it wants – I have no doubt the Nats will cave and this proposal will be shelved. This will be another economic windfall to the wider economy (not the narrow royalty the govt might make from mine profits) that will never accrue to NZ. The consequences will be more subtle and less dramatic – like the frog in the cold water that is slowly cooked with the steadily rising temperature that never gets too hot to shock the frog into jumping out. The gap between Aus and NZ slowly widens, NZ drops another notch down in the OECD in 2011, then one more in 2012. If the wishes of the environmental left are adhered to than NZ continues its slow slide into economic 2nd world status.
The reality is you can have your cake and eat it too – it requires the people to look at the issue pragmatically and accept a very small and easily remediated footprint on a tiny portion of land. Other 1st world countries make these compromises – the French survive with all their nuclear power stations despite the dire warnings of Greenpeace. NZ can make this proposal work but I fear the entire left leaning commentariat so command the attention of the silent middle class that rational discussion on this subject has become nigh impossible.
Vote:May 4th, 2010 at 7:40 am
@kiwi in america 4:51 am
Not if something similar to the ECan Act is put in place to facilitate mining. That Act allows the Minister to suspend various parts of the RMA in Canterbury. And don’t forget, Brownlee still has Phase II of the RMA reforms in the pipeline.
Vote:May 4th, 2010 at 8:14 am
If Phase 2 RMA reforms stop roaming unemployed environment activists from holding up wothwhile projects with vexatious appeals expoiting the RMA’s protections then that will be a good thing.
The ECan Act addressed the logjam on effective water resource management in Canterbury after the years of dysfunction on the ECan board. Not really relevant to the mining issue.
Still waiting for your wisdom toad on the reasons for the 35% wage gap between Aus and NZ and your solutions to close it.
Vote:May 4th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
Ans so it fucking should provided that is what the majority of kiwis want.
This in turn would be democracy, the government working according the what the majority of the nation wants.
Vote:May 4th, 2010 at 12:39 pm
Menace
Vote:Be careful what you wish for. Did you not read my last post? Do you want the wage and standard of living gap with Australia to just keep getting wider? Do you want NZ to continue its slow slide DOWN the OECD because that is what is happening.
May 4th, 2010 at 1:14 pm
kiwi in america
did you read my earlier post?
Is there nothing else?
Vote:May 4th, 2010 at 1:19 pm
Also,
I dont need a new 20 thousand dollar car ever 4 years.
I dont need a new lounge sweet every 4 years.
I dont need to change my whole kitchen just because my new kettle looks out of place.
I dont need to re carpet because i made a mistake a year ago when i put the wrong “color” in.
The gap between rich and poor continues to grow, and mining will not change this one little bit, life is well and truly at an acceptable level for my self and many others so long as there standards are not purely material based. Material based values will never be satisfied.
Vote:May 4th, 2010 at 4:22 pm
Tell that to the Greek civil servants faced with 15% pay cuts because as NZ slides lower and lower in the OECD its tax revenues from ever less profitable businesses and the opportunity cost of entrepreneurial talent leaving NZ makes its provision of services ever more difficult. There are so many areas where already today the NZ Govt cannot match what is offered in Australia.
Your recipe sounds a lot like the rhetoric from Chavez, Castro and Kim Jong Ill. The end of the socialist road you espouse is poverty for all.
Vote: