Israel wrong

June 1st, 2010 at 8:53 am by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

Israeli commandos last night stormed six ships carrying hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists on an aid mission to the blockaded Gaza Strip, killing at least 10 people and wounding dozens after encountering unexpected resistance as the forces boarded the vessels.

The operation in international waters off the Gaza coast was a nightmare scenario for and looked certain to further damage its international standing, strain already tense relations with Turkey and draw unwanted attention to Gaza’s plight.

If the boats were still in international waters, then Israel did not have the legal right to board them. It would be a different matter in my mind, if they had waited until they were in Israeli waters.

As for the regrettable deaths, I do believe that the Israeli soldiers only opened fire after they were attacked. However if you are boarding a ship in international waters, then you are likely to get attacked.

To my mind Israel has blundered badly in its actions. The only defence I can think of is if the boats were found to be bringing in weapons, in which case they could be considered an enemy ship.

551 Responses to “Israel wrong”

  1. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Surely not KevinH
    http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/02/israels-actions-entirely-lawful-2/print/
    While the international community has, once again, ganged up on Israel, one thing is for certain: the legality of Israel’s actions in stopping the Gaza flotilla is not open to question. What Israel did was entirely consistent with both international and domestic law. In order to understand why Israel acted within its rights, the complex events at sea must be deconstructed:

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  2. Bevan (3,358 comments) says:

    No-one says that Palestinians have been well served by their leaders, from Husseini, to Arafat or Hamas. That’s irrelevant. Eight million people need a home, and they aren’t going away.

    And 7.5 million Israeli citizens deserve the right to live without the threat of being wiped off the map, either by Iran or Hamas or Hezbollah. Israel has the right to defend itself

    And hey, last I checked the Palestinians ELECTED Hamas to represent them – if they didnt know whet Hamas had in mind, then they were either blind, or they support the murder of Israeli’s… Saying they havent been served well by the leaders they have elected is just denying responsibility.

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  3. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    LUC again a load of bollocks
    mate how can you write this?

    You can’t tell me that the siege of Gaza is not collective punishment, illegal under international law, and you can’t tell the people of Gaza to participate in an election then collectively punish them for the results. We all understand why Hamas won at the expense of the Money and Israel-First party, and we all understand that Israel took fright at Hamas holding out the olive branch.

    It is not collective punishment, But it is a consequence of the actions taken.
    What don't you understand about 10,000 rockets?
    What don't you understand about tunneling under border fences to attack and kidnap people?
    Aren't they illegal under international law (or doesn't that apply if it's against Israelis).

    No I don't understand why they won, as they told the people what they were going to do when they got into power perhaps?

    You call 10,000 rockets and the kidnapping of Galid Shalit an olive Branch?

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  4. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Bevan
    i>denying responsibility

    LUC is good at that.

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  5. tom hunter (6,962 comments) says:

    MikeNZ

    Thanks – the departed Ryan Sproull set the example I think. Besides, what point is there in getting into a massive tanty on an online forum?

    And I wish it could always be so – rather hard to resist when the debate includes such terms as wingnut and irrational – but I was chided by Labrator last week for endulging in some egoising and insults on one thread – and he was right 🙂

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  6. TimG_Oz (968 comments) says:

    Itsdatruth. I’ve lived there. I’ve worked with PeaceNow. My cousin volunteered in Jenin.

    What have you done for peace?

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  7. RRM (12,290 comments) says:

    [BEVAN]:Saying they havent been served well by the leaders they have elected is just denying responsibility.[/quote]

    SO bevan, what you are saying there is that all National voters who are unhappy with Key over GST going up, income tax not coming down enough, cancelled tax cuts in 2009, race relations issues etc etc should all STFU because they are responsible for these decisions?

    If so, I like your style!

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  8. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Thanks Cha
    I’ve had a quick squizz and will look over Hidush and World Union for Progressive Judaism over the weekend.
    Gotta work now.

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  9. virtualmark (1,562 comments) says:

    Luc,

    Why is what KIA says “propaganda”, but what you say reliable?

    You are clearly pro-Palestinian. Certainly, not pro-Israeli. But equally certainly not neutral. Are you capable of the self-awareness to see that such strongly held views on this issue are unhelpful?

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  10. RRM (12,290 comments) says:

    And AMAZED this thread is still going so strong.

    Israel is right at all times, all those who oppose their actions are anti-semites. The end.

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  11. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    RRM
    I agree, they should STFU.
    and
    Give their party vote to ACT next time.

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  12. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Shouted obscenities are preferable to whispered eulogies
    I like this guy, but then I would.
    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.printable&pageId=161269

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  13. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    RRM
    That is not true at all.

    But in this case she is 🙂

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  14. tom hunter (6,962 comments) says:

    Bangladesh
    History of brutal military conflicts, suppression by Pakistan military, further military dictatorships following independence. Nowadays Reasonably free and democratic. But:

    Post-1971 regimes sought to increase the role of the government in the religious life of the people. The Ministry of Religious Affairs provided support, financial assistance, and endowments to religious institutions, including mosques and community prayer grounds (idgahs). The organization of annual pilgrimages to Mecca also came under the auspices of the ministry
    ………..
    Another step toward further government involvement in religious life was taken in 1984 when the semiofficial Zakat Fund Committee was established under the chairmanship of the president of Bangladesh. The committee solicited annual zakat contributions on a voluntary basis. The revenue so generated was to be spent on orphanages, schools, children’s hospitals, and other charitable institutions and projects. Commercial banks and other financial institutions were encouraged to contribute to the fund. Through these measures the government sought closer ties with religious establishments within the country and with Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
    ………..
    When in June 1988 an “Islamic way of life” was proclaimed for Bangladesh by constitutional amendment, very little attention was paid outside the intellectual class to the meaning and impact of such an important national commitment. Most observers believed that the declaration of Islam as the state religion might have a significant impact on national life, however.

    In other words a holding pattern at best.

    Finally we come to everybody’s favourite example of a secular Muslim state (well, aside from Turkey of course)

    Indonesia
    Decades of brutal military dictatorships, point of the gun control, many deaths. Freeing up nowadays. In other words Turkey redux – except for the history of amalgamating Hindu, Buddhist, and animist beliefs and practices with Islam, making it not-Islam.

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  15. tom hunter (6,962 comments) says:

    Man – it seems that my examples of Bangladesh and Indonesia are not even moderate and secular enough for the Kiwiblog moderation system!

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  16. Fletch (8,793 comments) says:

    As I said in another thread – Israel also offered to give Gaza back in 1967 (when it won the war) in exchange for peace (as ordered by the UN), but the Palestinians wouldn’t do it.

    As for Gaza, it was taken by Israel when they won the Six Day Way in 1967. Israel was willing to trade land captured in a defensive war for peace, as it eventually did with the Egyptians and Jordanians, but neither the Palestinians nor the Syrians have been willing to offer peace in exchange for land, as required by Security Council Resolution 242.

    More detail in my other comment.

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  17. angie stone (53 comments) says:

    They’ve been at it for years. No blog will solve the isuue that’s for sure.

    http://www.angel-charlene.com

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  18. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    amazing Tom
    your post complaining about Bangladesh not being printed came in before and now it appears after!

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  19. Bevan (3,358 comments) says:

    RRM: SO bevan, what you are saying there is that all National voters who are unhappy with Key over GST going up, income tax not coming down enough, cancelled tax cuts in 2009, race relations issues etc etc should all STFU because they are responsible for these decisions?

    Slightly different contexts dont you think? You’re comparing Hamas’ desire for the genocide of its neighbour, to National putting up GST!

    Also, are you trying to say that the Palestinians didnt know full well what Hamas had been doing for the last 20 years? Deluded = you.

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  20. tom hunter (6,962 comments) says:

    Hey – gave me a chance to swap India for Pakistan 😉

    and obviously not all emoticons are acceptable either!!!

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  21. RRM (12,290 comments) says:

    [Bevan]:You’re comparing Hamas’ desire for the genocide of its neighbour, to National putting up GST! [/quote]

    You presented it as a pretty general principle. I believe your exact words were “Saying they havent been served well by the leaders they have elected is just denying responsibility.”

    One reason principles are so important, is because they travel. If the Palestinians are what they voted for, then so are our Nat supporters. Can’t have it both ways.

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  22. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    cool I just learnt something new, thanks Fletch

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2010/06/editorials_2_june_2010.html#comment-700881

    So you see, the Palestinians could have had that land back if they had sued for peace but they didn’t want to. They rather want Israel destroyed. In the end, Israel gave Gaza back in 2005 as part of the ‘roadmap to peace’, but all they got were more rockets fired from Gaza at them in return.

    Just to get the thread back on track.
    NeilM & LUC
    How many rockets does Hezbullah have now being supplied through Iran & Syria (+ others)?

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  23. kiwi in america (2,664 comments) says:

    Luc
    Slogans and evasion – that sums up your contribution here. Israel is a vibrant 1st world democracy and in 1st world democracies people of all political persuasions form parties, write their books and make their case. Israel has plenty of dovish left wingers at every level of society who would all 100% agree with all the literature you link to (but somehow seem uninterested in quoting from).

    Rather than show the land deeds that prove Palestinian ownership you retreat into misty eyed slogans. There is no denying the pain of the Palestinians but what has caused it? The Peel Commission recommended its boundaries back in 1935. The UN debated the same boundaries extensively. A Jewish homeland was allocated to that area where the highest concentrations of Jews lived – ditto a Palestinian homeland. Read that again – trans Jordan was to be the Palestinian homeland. The land inside the 1948 borders was predominantly owned by JEWS. What part of ownership do you not understand. The Jews took the sterile desert offered them – the Palestinians threw their toys out of the cot and wanted the whole of Palestine and fought a bitter war with neighbouring Arab help to get their way. Sorry – didnt work; move to Plan B – oh no Plan B. In the fog of war Jews in the Palestinian territory fled to Israel and Palestinian Arabs fled from Israel – most at the encouragement of their leaders. Are you saying that the former Iraqi and Syrian PMs ‘misspoke’ because their written recollections dont fit with modern Palestinian grievance propoganda.

    The Palestinians rejected the state they were offered, the bulk of them moved from Israel at the behest of their leaders and they have rejected a 2 state solution ever since because they either want all the land or they want to all move from Trans Jordan into Israel. Their plight is sad but self inflicted. The UN and other Arab nations could’ve built a nation – heck Israel likely would contribute to some infrastructure. Their leaders consistently chose war with Israel – something that you sweep away as irrelevant. Its highly relevant.

    The people of Gaza are being punished because their leaders are corrupt thugs who want to make war with Israel. Why are their fellow Arabs in Egypt so restrictive sometimes even more than the Israelis? Have you ever wondered why? Do you really think that Mubahrak does the billing of Netanyahu? You whine about Bibi but even the dovish Shamir and Barak were hated – perhaps not as much. Their left leaning ideology got them no closer to doing a deal because the Palestinians never miss and opportunity to miss an opportunity. Prince Bandar of Saudi said as much to Arafat but he wanted his Intefada.

    8 million people can easily make the land originally granted unto them a home. Those few who were genuinely expelled can and will be adequately compensated. The billions Arafat and Hamas have squandered could transform and modernise the entire infrasructure. No – the Palestinians really want Israel free of Jews – olive branches usually dont come in the form of Katusha rockets fired into Israel AFTER they left Gaza completely and certainly not in the form of SCUD missiles from Iran. When Nazrallah says he hopes more Jews gather to Israel so that he doesnt have to hunt them down and kill them in other countries, when Ahmajinadad repeatedly speaks publicly about a new Holocaust, the Jews remember the last time that the West dismissed the rants of an ideologue – it led to a real Holocaust. They aren’t going to make the same mistake twice.

    Defend your position with quotes and proof – you threaten us with some overwhelming truth that will sweep away all pro-Israel arguments and yet they remain safely locked up in your pro-Palestinian reading list. Spare us the slogans and the crocodile tears.

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  24. Its da truth (12 comments) says:

    Learnt something new? Don’t you mean you found something you agree with Mike.

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  25. Bevan (3,358 comments) says:

    RRM: One reason principles are so important, is because they travel. If the Palestinians are what they voted for, then so are our Nat supporters. Can’t have it both ways.

    BULL SHIT! Let us be very clear here: You’re comparing Hamas’ desire for the genocide of its neighbour, to National putting up GST! You are a fucken sick individual.

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  26. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    no idt

    I learnt to get an address of a particular post from looking at Fletch’s post so I posted a bit of it to experiment with the block quote I’ve just learnt.
    I’m an old fella you see, it takes time 🙂

    Bevan
    It’s the same as the disproportionate rubbish they allways pull.

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  27. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    kiwi in america (884) Says:
    June 3rd, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    Go for it.

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  28. kiwi in america (2,664 comments) says:

    The flotilla was on a ‘humanitarian’ ‘peace’ mission according to Israel’s detracters. Gaza is starving we are told. Well the Financial Times begs to differ “Hundreds of tunnels have shut down over the past year as a result of greater Egyptian efforts to stop the flow of goods – and weapons – into the strip. But the remaining tunnels, about 200 to 300 according to most estimates, have become so efficient that shops all over Gaza are bursting with goods.
    Branded products such as Coca-Cola, Nescafé, Snickers and Heinz ketchup – long absent as a result of the Israeli blockade – are both cheap and widely available. However, the tunnel operators have also flooded Gaza with Korean refrigerators, German food mixers and Chinese air conditioning units. Tunnel operators and traders alike complain of a saturated market – and falling prices.
    “Everything I demand, I can get,” says Abu Amar al-Kahlout, who sells household goods out of a warehouse big enough to accommodate a passenger jet.”
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/587d04da-6686-11df-aeb1-00144feab49a,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F587d04da-6686-11df-aeb1-00144feab49a.html&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fhotair.com%2Farchives%2F2010%2F06%2F02%2Fnetanyahu-speaks-the-jewish-state-has-a-right-to-defend-itself%2F

    A Danish TV reporter Stefan Jensen reports from Gaza “there was certainly no shortage of vegetables, fruits or any other ordinary, basic foods”
    Read the whole report – http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http://www.steffen-jensen.dk/dan/blogartikler/134–mere-mangel-pa-arbejde-end-pa-mad/&sl=da&tl=en

    And now the clincher – CNN are reporting (sorry no link as more than 2 sends it into moderation) that when the Israelis went to return the shipments from the flotilla to Hamas at the Gazan terminal of Rafah – they refused shipment! Says heaps about the true motivation of this voyage.

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  29. krazykiwi (8,145 comments) says:

    toad complains:

    But don’t you understand the point of the blockade? Its entire purpose is to starve the people in Gaza into submission. So why would Israel truck the cargo to Gaza?

    c.f. KIA’s comment above … would you care to comment further toad?

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  30. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    kiwi in america 4:02 pm,

    Branded products such as Coca-Cola, Nescafé, Snickers and Heinz ketchup – long absent as a result of the Israeli blockade – are both cheap and widely available. However, the tunnel operators have also flooded Gaza with Korean refrigerators, German food mixers and Chinese air conditioning units. Tunnel operators and traders alike complain of a saturated market – and falling prices.
    “Everything I demand, I can get,” says Abu Amar al-Kahlout, who sells household goods out of a warehouse big enough to accommodate a passenger jet.”

    Gee, you know the Gazans are ‘doing it hard’ when they complain about falling prices due to the market being oversupplied.

    And imagine being limited to a warehouse ONLY “big enough to accommodate a passenger jet”.

    Oh the inhumanity – excuse me while I shed a tear …

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  31. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    KIA
    I read that post the other day, though it wasn’t at that url.
    There was one about the olympic swimming pool too and a new shopping mall.
    Thanks for posting it.

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  32. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I find it difficult to understand how people like KIA can wallow in their lies, and reply to facts with accusations of sloganeering. The most egregious lie is that Palestine was largely Jewish owned by 1948. KIA and the likes (as for the climate change deniers) ask for proof, then reject that proof when it is offered.

    A detailed listing of all pre-1948 Palestinian towns and villages can be viewed

    here including the Arab/Jew population, the number of houses, area and date of takeover by Jewish forces and the name of that force. it’s easy to use and quite absorbing, if one likes to be informed.

    And you can see a wonderful resource, <a href="http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story564.htm:<Palestine, A Chronology.

    It should be noted that this site is a joint Arab/Jewish project, there being many Jews in Israel who campaign for the Palestinian cause.

    And as I say, there is plenty of reading in the reading list published on my blog, almost all of it by Jewish or Israeli sources. KIA should go and try out his risible lies on them. There is also a good series of talks by Ilan Pappe, a professional historian rather than a professional propagandist) to be found on youtube.

    Now some more recent news:

    1. The siege (and by the way, the UN estimated that the flow of goods into Gaza is only about 25% of the pre-siege flow) is about to be broken, and this was announced by no less a personage than Bibi himself, who has requested inspection of aid convoys into Gaza by an international team, mainly the EU.

    2. Israeli police have attacked and grievously wounded an American who was demonstrating in Israel against the flotilla raid. She was unarmed, and not even active in the demonstration, when three tear gas grenades were fired at her, one hitting her face and causing the loss of one eye. This is in addition to another US citizen killed by Israel’s forces in the last couple of days, a dual Turkish/US citizen actually on flotilla ship.

    But Israel also has impunity even for killing US citizens, as plenty of previous example testify to.

    And KIA and others here show their contempt for international law, including the Geneva Convention, when promoting various reasons (the goalposts are always moving) for imposing the siege, all of which entail the collective punishment of the civilian population of Gaza, one of the most heinous war crimes that European Jews should be especially revolted by, given their history.

    Time to take a rest from this particular sewer. I’ve got to organise my latest donations to Viva Palestina.

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  33. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I don’t know why DPF won’t give me permission to edit my posts, but you can follow the incompetently posted link anyway, although I’m sure most of you won’t!

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  34. Alan Wilkinson (2,434 comments) says:

    SR: “Alan get a reality check. Arabs have an AVERAGE birthrate of over 8. If there was a single state they would make up about at least 1/3 of the population on day one and within 10 years or so would be the majority.”

    Ok, let’s do the reality check:

    “The growth rate of the Arab population in Israel is 2.6%, while the growth rate of the Jewish population in Israel is 1.7%. The growth rate of the both Jewish and Arab population has slowed from 3.8% in 1999 to 2.6% in 2008 for Arab and 2.7% to 1.7% for the Jewish population. The fastest growing segment of population remain to be Arab Muslim with the latest growth rate of 2.8% for 2008.”

    For Palestine (West Bank, East Jerusalem, Gaza) the population growth rate is 2.225% (2008 est.)

    To keep it simple let’s take a worst case where the Jewish population growth remains at 1.7% and the Arab population all grows at 2.6% and we’ll start with a Jewish population of 8M and Arab of 4M. Here is what happens:

    Yr Jews Arabs
    0 8.00 4.00
    1 8.14 4.10
    2 8.27 4.21
    3 8.41 4.32
    4 8.56 4.43
    5 8.70 4.55
    6 8.85 4.67
    7 9.00 4.79
    8 9.15 4.91
    9 9.31 5.04
    10 9.47 5.17

    15 10.30 5.88
    20 11.21 6.68
    25 12.19 7.60
    30 13.27 8.64

    So even after 30 years there is no prospect of an Arab majority. And almost certainly as I said before with education for women and increased prosperity the Arab birthrate would actually reduce.

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  35. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    It’s just the way the system works some days I think as it’s happened to me more than once.
    reboot and come back in.

    How about these LUC if you’re bored and none are Jewish sites.

    http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=3094801
    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/the-problem-with-playing-defense-15459
    http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2010/0601/Gaza-flotilla-Why-the-blockade-makes-sense-for-Israel

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  36. Alan Wilkinson (2,434 comments) says:

    Actually I meant to use 2.8% for the Arab growth rate but it doesn’t make much difference. It gets to 9.16M in 30 years.

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  37. Its da truth (12 comments) says:

    They wouldn’t let me edit my post either Luc. I wonder if it’s selective or happening to everyone?

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  38. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Hey LUC
    Did you know, that before the flotilla set off from Tukey, Cyprus banned them from landing there, they refused to take aid to the kidnapped Israeli Galid Shalit and the Crummy Israelis offered to land and move the aid on from a safe port?
    Can you believe it?

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/gaza-aid-convoy-refuses-to-deliver-package-to-gilad-shalit-1.292541
    http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/MFA+Spokesman/2010/Israel-invites-the-international-flotilla-to-unload-its-cargo-in-Ashdod-port-27-May-2010.htm
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3895287,00.html

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  39. RRM (12,290 comments) says:

    [Bevan]: BULL SHIT! Let us be very clear here: You’re comparing Hamas’ desire for the genocide of its neighbour, to National putting up GST! You are a fucken sick individual. [/quote]

    Oh, ok, so when you said people are responsible for the acts of the governments they vote in, you didn’t really mean it?

    Or does this responsibility only apply to people you disagree with?

    FWIW I’m not “comparing” genocide with tax cuts, any fool could see this.
    But I am wasting my breath, you see whatever you want to see on the page so it is just not worth talking to you. back on the spam list you go…

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  40. RRM (12,290 comments) says:

    ^^^MikeNZ – is that really so unreasonable?? The flotilla didn’t want to hand over their cargo to the very people who they blame for Gaza’s problems?

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  41. Alan Wilkinson (2,434 comments) says:

    Yes, the editing is broken I think. It lets you try then refuses. .. Unless this is added! It was, so it must be intermittent.

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  42. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    RRM
    On the face of it that seems very reasonable doesn’t it?
    But wait there is more (as there always is) 🙂

    Why the blockade in the first place?
    What were the true intentions of the Humanitarian activists?
    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/boatloads-of-bloody-minded-pacifists/story-e6frezz0-1225874166305

    It really depends on where you stand on the rights of a sovereign state to exist in Israel’s case.

    I know where I stand,
    The blockade is a consequence of 10,000 (and counting) terrorist rockets and attacks against Israeli towns, (after clearing out of Gaza) with a kidnapping thrown in for good measure.
    and with an eye on what has become of Lebanon under Hezbullah.

    The Peace Activists deliberately set out with Turkish govt or Int assistance to run the blockade not to bring humanitarian aid.

    The Israelis offered them safe passage to a port where they would check the contents and on send.
    The peace activists refused the sovereign states offer and the family of a kidnapped Isreali to take him aid too.

    The Sovereign state took action as they were entitled to at sea to prevent the blockade being broken.
    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/the-problem-with-playing-defense-15459

    The peace activists had preprepared videos of the Israelis attacking them during daylight and prepared themselves to repel borders with lethal force.

    The Israelis helo dropped at night with paintball guns as their primary weapons but were overwhelmed by superior force and then shot at both with their own personal protection secondary guns and other calibres.
    http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N02192851.htm

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  43. kiwi in america (2,664 comments) says:

    Nice try Luc
    Of course Palestine Remembered is gospel truth because some peacenik left leaning Israeli Jews contribute to it giving it a facade of legitimacy …to you. Here’s a report that questions the whole methodology of the site and more importantly the actions of Google Earth in just taking Palestinians word for it.
    http://jcpa.org/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=1&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=376&PID=0&IID=2250&TTL=Google_Earth:_A_New_Platform_for_Anti-Israel_Propaganda_and_Replacement_Geography

    I have meetings to attend so further rebuttal to follow. Once again Luc, you completely surround yourself with pro-Palestinian literature and research – your blog tells us that your life is wrapped around their cause so its only natural that you view all literature, websites and published material that favours the Palestinian cause through an uncritical lens. The website looks marvellous – so convincing with so much detail – almost all of it contestable and with plenty of respected researchers and academics having done so.

    As for the dead American ‘peace’ activist. Might pay to give the whole story – she was born in the US to Turkish parents who moved back to Turkey when she was 2. So she has US citizenship in the literal legal sense but could hardly be classified as an American in any cultural sense. Tragic that she died – perhaps she has a taped martyrdom video filmed prior to leaving Turkey where her colleagues chanted Death to the Jews somewhere on al Jazeera’s recent files. http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=2323

    You know protesters protest the world over and police the world over respond to crowds that they seek to control with tear gas and sometimes protesters get hurt. The German, French, English, American etc police have all injured protesters but when ISRAEL does it – it becomes a war crime.

    Any ship with legitimate humanitarian supplies for Gaza has nothing to fear from an Israeli inspection. The issue is that the Israelis know that Hamas steal and horde humanitarian shipments to profit from by sale on the black market. The Israelis want to make sure that aid gets to legitimate agencies on the ground. Of course we now know that the myth of few goods and food in Gaza is just that ..a myth as per the links I posted yesterday. The fact that Hamas is still trying to smuggle rockets and weapons into Gaza and have been caught numerous times doing it is one of the reasons why the EGYPTIANS support the blockade.

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  44. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    All those who hold the view that no matter what Israel does it is always wrong, or the more ‘moderate’ who say this latest action by Israel is an “Israeli PR disaster”, let me put the following question:

    What other sovereign nation, given a similar scenario, and a similar threat, would not hesitate to follow the same procedure as did Israel? And would they not be within their rights to do so? – especially in light of international law where sovereign states have the right to defend themselves and their citizens:

    SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

    Neutral merchant vessels

    67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

    (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
    (b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
    (c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy’s armed forces;
    (d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy’s intelligence system;

    (f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy’s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

    That the world attempts to hold Israel to a higher, and in the circumstances unreasonable, standard just shows the level of anti-Semitism directed against the nation of Israel in particular, and the Jewish people in general.

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  45. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    (f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy’s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

    I’d say concrete for building bunkers would qualify Kris 🙂

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  46. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    MikeNZ 2:59 pm,

    I’d say concrete for building bunkers would qualify Kris

    … but, no doubt, the line likely to be trotted out would be that it was to be used for the local new kindergarden.

    Having said that, would ‘indoctrination centres’ be counted as ‘military’ structures?

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  47. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    I’m not sure exactly what you mean.
    detention centres for torture which they already have from Fatah?
    or
    UN built secular schools?
    or
    UN funded (read us), Islamist staffed kindergarten through to senior schools?

    I certainly think stores for warheads and rocket bodies as that’s been proven already.

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  48. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    MikeNZ 5:10 pm,

    I’m not sure exactly what you mean.

    UN funded (read us), Islamist staffed kindergarten through to senior schools?

    Yeah, that one.

    What kindergarden, primary, secondary school, or even university, in a Muslim country, but especially ‘Palestine’, isn’t just an anti Western/Israeli ‘indoctrination centre’? And on that basis one could argue the point that they, in fact, are military targets; in the broader sense of the word, anyway.

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  49. Its da truth (12 comments) says:

    Blah blah blah blah blah all Jews are great, any criticism is anti Semite, anyone who thinks Israel might be overreacting is evil, wrong, stupid, ignorant etc blah blah blah.

    I’ll leave you to enjoy your daisy chain.

    Adios Amigos

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  50. krazykiwi (8,145 comments) says:

    @IDT – No, all Jews are not great. Some have made atrocious decisions and demonstrated – what appears to us – to be profoundly poor judgments. But then you and I are not surrounded by 200million people lead by religious zealots and political barbarians who regularly declare that we should be destroyed. I suspect a great many of the Israel-haters would be singing a different tune if we were so surrounded.

    Why do the blockade us? Why do they fire on us?.

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  51. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    TDT
    All Jews are not great as KK says but becoming a Dhimmi by keeping your head in the sand is daft.

    http://www.andrewbostom.org/loj//content/view/17/27/
    http://www.andrewbostom.org/loj//content/view/16/27/

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