Israel wrong

June 1st, 2010 at 8:53 am by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

Israeli commandos last night stormed six ships carrying hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists on an aid mission to the blockaded Gaza Strip, killing at least 10 people and wounding dozens after encountering unexpected resistance as the forces boarded the vessels.

The operation in international waters off the Gaza coast was a nightmare scenario for and looked certain to further damage its international standing, strain already tense relations with Turkey and draw unwanted attention to Gaza’s plight.

If the boats were still in international waters, then Israel did not have the legal right to board them. It would be a different matter in my mind, if they had waited until they were in Israeli waters.

As for the regrettable deaths, I do believe that the Israeli soldiers only opened fire after they were attacked. However if you are boarding a ship in international waters, then you are likely to get attacked.

To my mind Israel has blundered badly in its actions. The only defence I can think of is if the boats were found to be bringing in weapons, in which case they could be considered an enemy ship.

Tags:

551 Responses to “Israel wrong”

  1. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Try getting some better information before you blog DPF. I just won a bet off this post.

    Thank you.

    Some advice on martime law would hurt either.

    [DPF: Why don’t you post the maritime law which you cite]

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    If the ‘aid mission’ had nothing to hide, then why did they reject Israel’s offer to ship and deliver the said aid?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. kaya (1,360 comments) says:

    Bethune might learn something from this, if you want to board a ship in open water make sure you have a dozen or so heavily armed commandos with you.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. jcuknz (704 comments) says:

    Another example of IDF/Israeli thugery and seems supported by the United States …. shame on both of them. Having the fox ajudicate on a raid on the hen house is hardly likely to result in justice.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. Will de Cleene (485 comments) says:

    Dunno what you’re on about Murray. Netanyahu’s spokesman on NatRad this morning tried to cite maritime law on blockade enforcement as an excuse. Considering the UN don’t recognise the blockade and considers it a breach of the Geneva Conventions, it’s a very weak argument to justify the Israeli piracy.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. voice of reason (490 comments) says:

    “krazykiwi (5349) Says:
    June 1st, 2010 at 9:04 am
    If the ‘aid mission’ had nothing to hide, then why did they reject Israel’s offer to ship and deliver the said aid?”

    Hmmm… maybe because they actually wanted the aid it to reach its destination

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. davidp (3,588 comments) says:

    >If the boats were still in international waters, then Israel did not have the legal right to board them. It would be a different matter in my mind, if they had waited until they were in Israeli waters.

    Errr, the ships were never going to be in Israeli waters. Both Egypt and Israel are enforcing a blockade on Gaza to minimise the number of rockets that the Gazans can shoot at Israel. There isn’t much point having a blockade if you don’t stop and search ships that try to evade the blockade.

    Israel made an offer for the ships to tie up at an Israeli port so they could be searched for weapons and humanitarian aid could be delivered to Gaza. But humanitarian aid is not restricted anyway and can be delivered across the Egyptian land border. But the offer was rejected because the anti-Israel crowd wanted to:

    1. Create an incident.
    2. Ambush the Israeli boarding parties. The boarding parties appear to have been armed primarily with paintball guns, incredibly, and only drew and used firearms once they were under sustained attack.

    Gaza’s “plight” is almost entirely self inflicted. Altho other Arab, Iranian, and now Turkish countries do their best to use Gaza as a prop in their anti-Israel theater. But it is interesting to see that the Turkish government sponsored all or some of this attempted blockade breaking and probably organised the ambush. This comes just a few weeks after they went out of their way to assist Iran’s nuclear weapons program to evade sanctions. My best guess is that the Islamists in charge in Turkey yearn for the days of the Ottoman Empire where they lorded it up over a big chunk of the Middle East.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. jcuknz (704 comments) says:

    >>>“krazykiwi (5349) Says:
    June 1st, 2010 at 9:04 am
    If the ‘aid mission’ had nothing to hide, then why did they reject Israel’s offer to ship and deliver the said aid?”<<<

    The Israeli record of delivering aid to Gaza is abismal and I wouldn't trust them to deliver a dead matchstick.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. voice of reason (490 comments) says:

    40 – 30

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. mickysavage (786 comments) says:

    (Gulp) Agreed DPF!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. ben (2,384 comments) says:

    I have no idea whether Israel is right or wrong in this. But the signalling from Israel is clear: do not f**k with us. Anybody now thinking about crossing the blockade now knows they are betting with their lives.

    Again I don’t know whether Israel is right or wrong. But my guess is they will have fewer blockade runners than before.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. Falafulu Fisi (2,179 comments) says:

    Israel had a right to storm that ship. Didn’t Arafat protest against a similar incident when Israeli commandos stormed a cargo ship some years ago that was heading towards Gaza, when in fact the commandos found illegal weapons in that ship?

    BTW, why the fucking UN security council is holding an emergency session over this non-important issue, but didn’t call for an emergency meeting when North Korea torpedoed a South Korean warship? The situation in North vs South Korea should have been a very important international event that could have triggered a regional war (or even WW3 – China & US) ? This only shows that the UN is an organization that is biased.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    http://muqata.blogspot.com/2010/05/anti-shalit-flotilla-updates.html

    Theres what your fucking “peace activists” were carrying.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    The Israeli record of delivering aid to Gaza is abismal and I wouldn’t trust them to deliver a dead matchstick

    You know this how?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. stephen (4,063 comments) says:

    This only shows that the UN is an organization that is biased.

    You should probably differentiate between the UN and the Security Council, and go from there.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. serge (108 comments) says:

    DPF you need to get your facts right about international law. Anyway, GOOD ON YOU ISRAEL!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. coventry (322 comments) says:

    Anyone else seeing parallels with Pete Bethune / Sea Shepherd ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    @Murray – not to ‘peaceful’ those peace activists.. are they? The video of mobs beating the IDF chap with metal bars is disturbing.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    coventry – more contrasts. The ‘peace activist’ mob were waiting to attack the IDF bods. Bethune probably interrupted seconds of sushi.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    It should be krazy. Also Israel delivers thousands of tons of aid into Gaza every week.

    Why have none of you questioned Egypts blocakde or how much aid they deliver? Seriously, why only Israel?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. Fale Andrew Lesa (473 comments) says:

    International Maritime law:

    Section 67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

    (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

    http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/560?OpenDocument

    I’m sorry, remind me again how Israel was the villian? or how it was defying international decree?

    Israeli government officials warned the vessel with enough notice to allow the contents on board to be thoroughly searched or to change course, this request was blatantly ignored.
    I should also remind you that the Turkish government gave consent for the ship to travel into Gaza, now isn’t that a responsible government?

    With communication this tragedy would have been easily avoided, I have no regrets for the actions of Israel.

    :D

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. Danyl Mclauchlan (1,071 comments) says:

    I have no idea whether Israel is right or wrong in this.

    Really? They attacked an aid convoy in international waters and killed over a dozen civilians and you have NO idea if that was wrong or not?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. real independent (30 comments) says:

    The days of Israel being able to act unilaterally with impunity and the implicit support of the U.S are over. Unlike under the Bush Administration this act of Israeli terrorism will draw wide spread condemnation from Obamas’ government.
    Imagine the outrage if a group of Arabs were blockading an Israeli territory in a like manor. It is the Israelis who believe the can operate outside of and with complete disregard for international laws and conventions.
    The only way to get through to this arrogant regime would be to impliment a world wide trade embargo against them. Including the supply of money and military equipment from the United States.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. Manolo (14,082 comments) says:

    Long live the Jewish State for having the courage to defend itself against the surrounding hordes of savages.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. Christopher Thomson (377 comments) says:

    The blockade is legal and uses the exact same criteria as recognised by the UK and the US (amongst others). It fully complies with all the international law on this matter.

    try some other tack you anti-semites.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. anonymouse (722 comments) says:

    David,

    The question of who is right and who is wrong in the boarding of these vessels is confused further by the fact that neither Israel or Turkey (the flag state of many of the vessels) are signatories to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. Christopher Thomson (377 comments) says:

    According to the San Remo Manual it is permissible under rule 67(a) to attack neutral vessels on the high seas when the vessels “are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..Long live the Jewish State for having the courage to’..send armed commandos..to butcher unarmed civilians…

    ..in international waters..

    ..eh..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. Christopher Thomson (377 comments) says:

    The IDF commandos were equipped with paint ball rifles to ensure minimum casualties among the flotilla terrorists — their hand guns were to be used as a means of last resort!

    The terrorists tried connecting the steel cables from the overhead helicopters to the boat’s antenna, in order to cause the helicopters to crash.

    Only when the “peace activists” severely beat the soldiers with iron rods, stab them with knives, and tried to lynch them, did the soldiers respond. IDF soldiers were pushed down stairs, thrown overboard, and shot at.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. LiberalismIsASin (290 comments) says:

    Israel don’t mess about. They are at war. And they know it too.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaiMjAULWn0&feature=player_embedded#!

    Theres your unarmed civlians you lying sack of anti-semetic shit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaiMjAULWn0&feature=player_embedded#!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. mawm (211 comments) says:

    Jcuknz –

    The Israeli record of delivering aid to Gaza is abismal and I wouldn’t trust them to deliver a dead matchstick.

    I thought I’d just help you a little with the Israeli record on aid delivery.

    Here’s what actually entered Gaza legally from Israel just last week of the “siege”:

    — 637 truckloads, consisting of 14,069 tons of humanitarian aid. Among the goods for Gazan civilians were 810,209 liters of heavy duty diesel fuel; 21 truckloads of milk powder and baby food; 897 tons of cooking gas; 66 truckloads of fruits and vegetables; 51 truckloads of wheat; 27 truckloads of meat, chicken and fish products; 40 truckloads of dairy products; 117 truckloads of animal feed; 36 truckloads of hygiene products; 38 trucks of clothing; 22 trucks of sugar and 4 trucks of medicine and medical equipment.

    In addition, 781 medical patients and accompanying individuals from the Gaza Strip crossed into Israel to receive treatment in various hospitals and 191 staff members of international organizations crossed into the Gaza Strip, and 202 crossed back from Gaza.
    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/05/28/abraham-cooper-gaza-hama-israel-memorial-day/

    That is only I week of aid!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    Well there are some Muslims it is safe to piss off and some it is bloody unsafe to piss off.
    The Turks who can do a bayonet charge from hell fall into the latter category.

    Now what is the betting that the next flotilla will have ten odd Turkish Frigates escorting it with a lot of pissed off Turks chanting bring it on yids.

    But I see the Israelis are offering courses in how to make friends and influence people

    Wonder if the Israelis have finished putting firearms on board the flotilla to be found ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. nickb (3,696 comments) says:

    WO has a good post:

    http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/2010/06/01/what-the-media-dont-want-you-to-know/

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    You lefties are looking pretty sick when you can just make shit up aren’t you. must really piss you off not being able to create your own reality.

    The bottom line is you don’t care about right or wrong or the realities of the situation, if Jews do it its evil.

    You know what that makes you. So do the rest of us.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. RRM (10,034 comments) says:

    But as usual the line from Israeli Govt PR is poor them, Israel are the real victims in this; never mind that they boarded the ship and did all the killing. If you disagree, you are being anti-semitic.

    Stop speaking with forked tongue, and maybe international view of Israel will improve?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. nickb (3,696 comments) says:

    WO has an enlightening post on this:

    http://whaleoil.gotcha.co.nz/2010/06/01/what-the-media-dont-want-you-to-know/

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    Christopher Thomson hold on, are you saying the people aboard the boats had access to a range of firearms, if so why did they not machine gun those helicopters out of the sky ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Thanks for demonstrating my point hori.

    By the way isn’t yid a derogatory term on par with calling you a darkie? It’s just a question.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. big bruv (14,165 comments) says:

    It never ceases to amaze me at the level of naked hatred the left have to the allies of the USA, the left are prepared to see Israel wiped off the face of the map simply because they have close ties with the Yanks.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    And they’re Jews bb.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. nickb (3,696 comments) says:

    Go to Gotcha, WO has an enlightening post for thos who blame this all on the jooooooooz

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. Chicken Little (741 comments) says:

    THEY WERE NOT IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    I’ve already posted most of those videos here nick. some people prefer to make their judgments without information though.

    Like DPF.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. RRM (10,034 comments) says:

    “the left are prepared to see Israel wiped off the face of the map simply because they have close ties with the Yanks.”

    ^^^ Amazed at how anyone could get that from the posts above.
    On this occasion Israeli forces committed piracy/war and are therefore clearly in the wrong. Is this really the same thing as saying I want to see their whole country blown off the face of the earth? Really?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. RRM (10,034 comments) says:

    “Go to Gotcha, WO has an enlightening post”

    Actual LOL. Did you get the memo last week about WO?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    David
    you’re off side on this one, stop being an appeaser.

    They (hamas supporters/enablers) intended to have this happen and they knew that deaths would eventuate and prepared for that in the full glare of PR TV.
    This is a classic one rule for Israel and another for anyone against her, lets just fck em over and the rest of the world stands by with their fingers up their bums.

    This was Israel enforcing (legally) it’s authority as a nation state to protect it’s citizens from enablers of terrorists against it’s citizens and territory. (what don’t you understand about 10,000 missles?)
    That they held off and tried everything to make it not happen (whilst being very clear what would eventuate) and even risked more death and injury to their own people merely shows what a load of wankers the anti Israel lot are (and the terrorists enablers here in Kiwiland).
    That especially includes Obama, The EU and The UN which sadly includes us as a nation. (but then what do i expect from a secular Jew as a PM)

    Grumpy
    You may be correct there and If it happens I hope they all get sunk by the biggest storm ever, just to sod the Israel & God (theirs) haters here :-)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. nickb (3,696 comments) says:

    So RRM you think people with mental illness are on a lower rung than the rest of us?

    How inclusive and caring the left are

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. real independent (30 comments) says:

    There’s always so much emotion and misinformation around any issue involving Israel, the Jews and the Middle East. Anyone who questions Israeli actions is clearly A Holocaust denier or (most laughably) anti-semetic. Those acusing posters of being anti-Semetic need to get their facts straight, as Semites include both Jews and Arabs. In this case Semites are both the agressors and the agrieved. So i guess you could call those condemning Israeli actions both anti and pro-Semitic.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. Waymad (136 comments) says:

    Sorry, David.

    Look at a map.

    Who owns Hamas? Iran.

    What are Iran’s plans for Israel? Annihilation. The Prez hisself has said so, I b’lieve.

    What are Iran’s other client states in the region? Syria and Lebanon.

    Look at that map again. Do you see an intentional military encirclement?

    Look at this thread. Do you see a lot of ‘useful idiots’?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. RRM (10,034 comments) says:

    Not at all nickb, but I took his potty-mouthed, tourette-like rages with a grain of salt EVEN BEFORE I learned he was only blogging as a means of catharsis.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..big bruv (6474) Says:
    June 1st, 2010 at 10:11 am

    It never ceases to amaze me at the level of naked hatred the left have to the allies of the USA..”

    fat-slug..all that shows is the simplistic-thinking you employ…

    being anti imperialistic-zionism…and feeling for the travails/horrors the palestinians are being subjected to…

    ..does not equate to anti-semitism…

    ..got that..?

    whereas you..no matter what horrors america/israel may perpetrate on whoever..for whtever…

    ..you will just engage in mindless/unthinking-boosterism..

    ..eh..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    Danyl: Really? They attacked an aid convoy in international waters and killed over a dozen civilians and you have NO idea if that was wrong or not?

    Correction: They were enforcing an Isreali/Egyptian blockade of the Gaza strip, and when they boarded the ship they were attacked by the crew.

    Grumpyoldhori: Now what is the betting that the next flotilla will have ten odd Turkish Frigates escorting it with a lot of pissed off Turks chanting bring it on yids.

    If Turkey is willing to attempt to force its way through the blockade of Gaza, then Israle will have the right to sink the ships instead of boarding them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. kowtow (8,784 comments) says:

    The Turks are as always untrustworthy.

    Currently an Islamic govt that hates Israel but is tied to Israel by it’s own west leaning military.

    This convoy is a deliberate provocation and has nothing to do with humanitarianism. It’s full of hate filled jihadis and their left wing Euro MP fellow travellers.

    Turkey illegally occupies N Cyprus.It wants EU membership. This business proves it has no place in Europe.

    Time now for western journalists to do some stories on Islamic “charities” and where the money comes from and goes to.
    No chance they’re afraid of being labelled racist or having their throats cut.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. Fale Andrew Lesa (473 comments) says:

    I have one question:

    If the entire operation was a ‘peaceful protest’ why were those on board ferociously opposed to being searched by Israeli officials?

    How is that a peaceful operation? do they not support Israel’s right to defend itself from the terrorist organisation’s that plot the destruction of Israel? are they not concerned for the region’s stability?

    The irony here is amazing.

    If they had nothing to hide, why not give Israel the opportunity to search the vessels’? It’s not that difficult and would have only taken a couple of hours.

    This clearly suggests that the vessels’ had one agenda and one agenda only – complete opposition to the modern state of Israel and a one-sided approach to achieving that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    real independent this issue of anti-Semitism as already been well dealt with here over the years. The term specifically relates to the hatred of Jews.

    Try another angle in screwing with language to excuse terrorism and we’ll deal with those as they come. anti-Semitism is a characteristic of the modern “liberal”. Just like dear leader clark and her sucessor Phil the Hand Holder Goff.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. Jeff83 (745 comments) says:

    All those apologising for Israel on this incident, including you Murray, and calling those who dare question Israel “anti semantic” are fucking retarded. IF ANY country did this shit it would be harsly condemed.

    As for legal, fuck off. Its questionable if the initial blockade is legal in the first place. They are blockading every point of access into what should be the state of Palestine, continuing destroying the infrastructure of to be frank a democratically elected government which has as much right to exist as the country who is treating humans worse than cattle.

    Do you know how long it takes for supplies to get into the Gaza, the desperate shortage of basics.

    Do you seriously believe that Israel continuing to operate this way, with total disregard for the populace will result in long term security. It wont, as their actions

    Remember it wasn’t the fucking arabs who slaughtered 6million jews, it was Germany.

    The chance for a lasting peace ever existing in the area is slipping due to the actions of Israel, re building on confiscated land, fucking up Lebannon and Gaza, a continued debatably legal blockade and now this (ignoring the constant deliberate bombings of UN obervers through out various periods).

    Yes Israel is at war, because it has effectively choosen this route since the failure at Camp David. Their current stratergy will give them short term security, but long term it does not bode well, which is a total trajedy.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. adrianb (30 comments) says:

    I come down firmly on the side of the Israelis here. The boat in question was warned, and given the option of unloading its cargo at another port. If its crewmembers decide to defend themselves by attacking soldiers with daggers and metal bars, they’re going to get shot. “Peace activist” now takes its place as yet another ironic by-word for Jihadists, along with “youth”, “extremist”, and the rest…

    But what sickens me still more is the hypocrisy of the Western left on this. CiF at Guardian is a frothing cess-pit of calls for Israel’s destruction, and of course we get served up several fellow-travelling muslim commentators to tell us how nasty the Jews are. Yet when muslims murdered 80 of their countrymen for some minor doctrinal deviationism in Pakistan the other day, we hear nothing, no editorials demanding some explanation for why islam is so utterly violent and obsessed with slaughter, no commentary on the need of the world to take note of this barbarity. Israel has been in a damned-if-you-do/don’t position for decades. That the Western left cannot even find the courage to speak out against the myriad atrocities and degredations of Islam, yet becomes incandescent with righteous anger when Israel is involved in any confrontation, showcases its abiding hypocrisy.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  59. CJD (333 comments) says:

    Go Israel!! The “Guts to do what’s right”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  60. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Ohhh little jeffy called me retarded, caught in the grip of his icy logic.

    I shouldn’t have wasted jy time in those rule of international conflic classes obviously. Some tool on the itnerwebds questions the legality based on having read a fucking commando comic. Actuall study of those laws is irrelivant!

    You’re a dickhead jeff, go back to sleep.

    By the way how do you feel about a nation that will stop ships and impond them and sell them off if they have the wrong number of fish on board up to 200 miles from their coast line? what country could possibly behave like that!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  61. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    what adrianb just said

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  62. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Hammas a democratically elected government, thats fucking hysterical. they only had to murder 1,000 members of Fattah for their “election” too.

    Sweet.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  63. pentwig (240 comments) says:

    the liar-bry phool

    You have proven yourself to be liar.
    A teller of untruths.
    Have a brain the size of a gnats.

    Any credibility you had (which I suspect was already zero) is as blown away as AGW.

    Fuck off back tour aggrieved news blog and espouse your bullshit trivia to your dedicated followers.
    No one on this blog actually give rats *** what your drug addled brain spews up as opinion.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  64. cha (4,084 comments) says:

    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    When Israel first encountered Islamists in Gaza in the 1970s and ’80s, they seemed focused on studying the Quran, not on confrontation with Israel. The Israeli government officially recognized a precursor to Hamas called Mujama Al-Islamiya, registering the group as a charity. It allowed Mujama members to set up an Islamic university and build mosques, clubs and schools. Crucially, Israel often stood aside when the Islamists and their secular left-wing Palestinian rivals battled, sometimes violently, for influence in both Gaza and the West Bank.

    “When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake,” says David Hacham, who worked in Gaza in the late 1980s and early ’90s as an Arab-affairs expert in the Israeli military. “But at the time nobody thought about the possible results.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  65. Fletch (6,497 comments) says:

    I saw some of the so-called “footage” that the MSM uses last night. It was basically the “peace activist” guys in orange life jackets shown in the process of standing up and none of them looked injured. Thanks for the links to the censored footage Murray. Eye-opening indeed.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  66. ben (2,384 comments) says:

    Danyl

    > I have no idea whether Israel is right or wrong in this.

    Really? They attacked an aid convoy in international waters and killed over a dozen civilians and you have NO idea if that was wrong or not?

    Christ Danyl, you must have xray vision or something. Just look at this thread. There are quotes from law which appear to support the right of Israel to board. Some say the activists attacked the Israelis. Now there are posts about weapons found on board the boats. And Israel by all accounts gave warning. Some or all of these claims may be false.

    On the other hand Israelis killed a bunch of people who, they say, were trying to deliver aid to impoverished people.

    I’m sorry but anyone who thinks they know who’s wrong and who’s right at this early stage is either misinformed or lying.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  67. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    Yes Israel is at war, because it has effectively choosen this route since the failure at Camp David. Their current stratergy will give them short term security, but long term it does not bode well, which is a total trajedy.

    Yes Jeff, Its always the JOOOOOOOO’S fault. Never those poor paletinians, they have never hurt a fly right?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  68. ben (2,384 comments) says:

    Fale Andrew Lesa: well said.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  69. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Yet when muslims murdered 80 of their countrymen for some minor doctrinal deviationism in Pakistan the other day, we hear nothing, no editorials demanding some explanation for why islam is so utterly violent and obsessed with slaughter, no commentary on the need of the world to take note of this barbarity.

    @adrianb – We can add another 8 to that tally. The same militants dressed as policemen, entered a hospital and killed 8 people just now. Will there be howls of outrage? I doubt it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  70. Inventory2 (10,443 comments) says:

    @ krazykiwi – sheesh; that “religion of peace” eh. Who’d have thunk it?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  71. real independent (30 comments) says:

    Murray, it really isn’t good for you to get this worked up. Have you ever tryed looking at this issue from both sides rather than solely your heavily biased pro-Israeli viewpoint?
    With regard to my anti-Semetic comments, i can see you are clearly being anti-semantic.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  72. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    MikeNZ Looking at the size of the Turkish armed forces a storm would be the only thing that would stop them if they wanted to give Israel a good kicking.

    It seems that Israel has confused the Turks with Syria, now, will the Turks refuse to sell the water that Israel needs ?

    The Israelis were utter bloody fools in not allowing that flotilla through and they could end up facing a Turkish/Syrian alliance.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  73. Christopher Thomson (377 comments) says:

    A riposte to the Germans killing 6 million Jews. The world powers stood by and let that happen. So the world should stand by and let Iran and the rest of the Muslim world kill the population of Israel. A population currently 7.5 million. That Would make it acceptable then would it! A sort of balancing the books exercise. And haven’t we heard somewhere that Mein Kampf has the biggest sales in the Muslim world.

    If the world powers won’t step up and denounce plans for another holocaust I don’t have an issue with Israel defending itself by whatever means necessary.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  74. RRM (10,034 comments) says:

    @ real independent – Murray likes to get his e-thug on. He’s hardly unique here. And e-thugs have no interest in “looking at issues from both sides”. You’re either A or not-A. Quick, decide.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  75. Jeff83 (745 comments) says:

    “You’re a dickhead jeff, go back to sleep.

    By the way how do you feel about a nation that will stop ships and impond them and sell them off if they have the wrong number of fish on board up to 200 miles from their coast line? what country could possibly behave like that!”

    O you mean a country which is not generating a total embargo of another country and is protecting its economic zone from pirates. Oh what a fucking surprise. Compared to intercepting a boat containing humanitarian cargo in international waters due to the enforcement of an illegal blockade. Fuck what a comparison there Murray, you must be really proud of that.

    And to be honest I may be a dickhead, but at least I am not a one sided ignorant piece of shit (up the anty there didn’t I) I can see the two sides, its just its gone well beyond any balance. If you seriously think Israel’s current actions are justifiable me and you have absolutely nothing in common and I don’t give to rats of an arse debating about it logically, because logic left this argument long ago when Israel started acting more like a state terrorist than a good state.

    I shouldn’t have wasted jy time in those rule of international conflic classes obviously. Some tool on the itnerwebds questions the legality based on having read a fucking commando comic. Actuall study of those laws is irrelivant!

    Seriously go fuck yourself. I too have studied the law of international conflict, from an American Professor at AU. So don’t try and get all high and mighty on me. As for reading a commando comic, I would say that is far more your cup of tea.

    Based on international law, Israel’s invasion of Gaza was illegal, and their actions in Lebanon debatable. As for this, well its beyond the pale, attacking civilian ships enforcing an illegal blockade to effectively economically cripple the Gaza as they didnt like its government, which ironically is much like the one Israel has elected.

    But anyway go into your proxy one-sided rage

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  76. Jeff83 (745 comments) says:

    Some say the activists attacked the Israelis. Now there are posts about weapons found on board the boats. And Israel by all accounts gave warning.

    Some did attack the soldiers who landed onboard, illegally. The weapons were I understand metal pipes / other clubs. Hardly state of the art weaponary or anything.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  77. adrianb (30 comments) says:

    Krazykiwi -indeed. I remember talking to some Bah’ais several years ago about the persecution they faced in Iran (before they got the fcuk out). It was basically a slow genocide of beatings, killings, and imprisonment. We can of course add to the list of Islamic persecutions Christians in Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc, women in all muslim countries, and various ethnic minorities. The sheer scale of slaughter, discrimination, repression, hatred, and violence in the Islamic lands defies comprehension. And we seldom hear a whisper about this from those who claim so loudly to stand for universal justice and human rights…

    Israel, Pakistan, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Afghanistan, Algeria, Syria, etc. Sh1t, I know which one I’d stand with…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  78. Jeff83 (745 comments) says:

    A riposte to the Germans killing 6 million Jews. The world powers stood by and let that happen. So the world should stand by and let Iran and the rest of the Muslim world kill the population of Israel. A population currently 7.5 million. That Would make it acceptable then would it! A sort of balancing the books exercise. And haven’t we heard somewhere that Mein Kampf has the biggest sales in the Muslim world.

    If the world powers won’t step up and denounce plans for another holocaust I don’t have an issue with Israel defending itself by whatever means necessary.

    Firstly, the Arabian world is not represented by fucking Iran. Secondily the reason Iran have that policy is pure popular politics, because Israel keep acting like the above. Finally and most importantly Palestine is not Iran.

    And its good to see you see attacking a floatilla carrying food and the like as the means that Israel needs to defend itself. Well done.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  79. Christopher Thomson (377 comments) says:

    Does anyone remember Peter Umbers?

    For those that don’t; he was a cop, unarmed, who was beaten to death with his own baton.

    So don’t tell me that a club is harmless. And if Umbers had a gun and used it he would be alive.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  80. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Jeff83 – So, “based on international law” would you care to pass judgement on Qassam Rockets and Mortars Fired (Combined) from Gaza, 2001-2008?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  81. Fletch (6,497 comments) says:

    Here’s a comment by someone using the nick “HolyKow” at the Huffington Post site –

    The arab countries are floating on oil money, however they never help the gazans. They maintain the status quo because it helps them to have a demonizing force for them to keep the popular opinion in their countries against the jews.

    If they wanted to get money into this area of the middle east, they could. They choose not to. Their regional rage is false.

    trillions of dollars and they do nothing.

    This is provocative on the part of the people that are challenging the blockade. What exactly did they think would happen? They basically volunteered to jump into a wolfs cage and had the audacity to be surprised when the wolf attacked?

    Transparent attempt to bait then trap the Israelis in a ‘poor me, watch them shoot at us’ moment.

    I think he hits the nail on the head. Other Arab countries could help Gaza, no problem, but they want them like this. Same with the so-called Palestinian “refugees”. It suits their purposes not to help them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  82. Bryla (263 comments) says:

    Let’s see, on the one hand warships, helicopters, armed soldiers, boarding under cover of darkness, killing, then closing down the information flow except for carefully selected and edited pieces. On the other hand slingshots, pipes, and whatever you take off the armed soldiers, dying, being locked up and held incommunicado.

    Yep, there’s a clear case of attack and self-defence here. After all one of those slingshots might have sunk a warship!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  83. Graeme Edgeler (3,290 comments) says:

    Questions for all those who claim this did not occur in International waters:

    1. In whose waters did it occur?
    2. If that country was not Israel, did that country agree to the incursion* necessary for this to occur?

    *incursion used in its technical sense.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  84. virtualmark (1,540 comments) says:

    Bryla. It would certainly seem that Israel has a valid right to board vessels breaching the blockade of Gaza. Boarding them from a helicopter isn’t that unusual – plenty of ports put their harbour pilots aboard using that exact same approach.

    As for slingshots and pipes (and you forgot to mention axe handles, knives, metal chairs and molotov cocktails) … dead is dead. Whether its from a bullet or being hit by a metal pipe. The videos quite clearly show the melee on the ship. They show the attack on the Israeli commandos. If you were in the same situation as the Israelis found themselves in how would you defend yourself?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  85. Bryla (263 comments) says:

    virtualapologist, I would not be in the Israeli soldiers position. For a start I’d wait till daylight, and have international observers. There is no correspondence between the force used by Israel and any concievable threat. It was an exercise in terror, which we cannot allow to succeed.

    The humanitarian situation in Gaza is appalling. Israel and Egypt must shoulder much of the responsibility for that, and Israel deserves the utmost condemnation for this disgraceful outrage.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  86. adrianb (30 comments) says:

    I mean, look at these Guardian headlines – could you imagine a more overt bias??? And to their left is a photo of a women wrapped in a Palestinian flag giving a V salute….

    Israel accused of state terrorism after attack
    Assault on vessel carrying pro-Palestinian activists sparks diplomatic crisis and protests
    Israeli attack on flotilla sparks global outrage
    Israeli publicity machine cranks into gear
    Blog: Global protests – as the day unfolded
    Q&A: The Gaza Freedom flotilla
    Video: footage from on board the flotilla
    Video: Israeli military footage of flotilla assault
    In pictures: Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ships
    Ian Black: Israel stokes Arab and Turkish fury
    Israeli military: ‘errors of judgment’
    Flotilla carried world-renowned names
    Ahdaf Soueif: Israel reveals its true face

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  87. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    Israel is trying to protect itself by enforcing this blockade. If the real purpose of the flotilla was to deliver humanitarian supplies then they could have delivered those supplies to the port designated by Israel where the contents could be checked and Israel would then transport the supplies to Gaza (like the 600+ truckloads of humanitarian supplies that Israel delivers EVERY WEEK). The fact that the flotilla refused the offer is admitting that their real purpose was to create an incident to embarrass Israel on the world stage, and right now the organisers will be celebrating their success in this. It is part of the dirty PR war with the intention of discrediting Israel. Israel is damned if they do and damned if they don’t, but the protection of their citizens is their priority number one, and letting un-inspected cargo through the blockade is tantamount to giving your enemy a loaded weapon to kill you with.
    I can only hope the official NZ response to this incident will include condemnation for the flotilla for refusing reasonable requests from Israel, rather than simply a knee-jerk reaction to a manufactured propaganda incident

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  88. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Sonny – that vid makes me sick. The tendency for Palenstinians to destroy each other reminded me of this excellent analysis from virtualmark last year.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  89. virtualmark (1,540 comments) says:

    Bryla, I’m not trying to apologise for Israel-the-nation. I agree with you about having international observers. But I would suggest that placed in the same situation, with your life under immediate threat, most people would resort to your handgun. If 10 people died then that is not altogether surprising given the general melee that took place.

    Might I suggest that the Palestinians must shoulder **much** of the responsibility for the humanitarian situation in Gaza. Certainly Israel and Egypt also have their share of responsibility too. But it shouldn’t be all that surprising that Israel imposes sanctions and a blockade when it is regularly attacked from Gaza.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  90. Fletch (6,497 comments) says:

    Bryla, rubbish.

    The so-called peace activist flotilla were ships full of pro-Palestinian activists intent on provoking Israel into creating an international incident, which they did. If you’re “peace activists” you don’t don’t load up the knives, axes, metal bars, slingshots, molotov cocktails and whatever else they had. They were geared up for a rumble and attacked as soon as the Israeli’s boarded – no talking or negotiation.

    If they were so concerned about the welfare of the Gazans, they would have left any weaponry at home and complied with Israel stopping and searching the ships, which cargo would have been delivered to those who needed it.

    The truth is, they do not care about delivering aid.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  91. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    MikeNZ Looking at the size of the Turkish armed forces a storm would be the only thing that would stop them if they wanted to give Israel a good kicking.

    History tells us that the combined Arab nations said the same thing in 1948, 1967 & 1973 – how’d that turn out for them?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  92. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..They were geared up for a rumble and attacked as soon as the Israeli’s boarded – no talking or negotiation…”

    oh..!..so they were the aggressors….and it was just a matter of self-defence for the heavily-armed israeli commandos..?

    ..and..um..!..the ‘no talking or negotiation’ claim on yr part does have me puzzled..

    ..do tell exactly the process you recommend for ‘talking or negotiation’..with commandos..?

    .. as they drop out of the sky…from helicoptors..?

    a haiku-‘negotiation’…is it…?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  93. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Fletch – A rumble indeed. A small technical point tho: The Israeli’s were attached before they boarded. They were still rappelling above the deck when the first blows landed on them!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  94. Bryla (263 comments) says:

    virtualmark, I notice you don’t comment about the raid being conducted at night. Why? It was bound to escalate the confusion and danger. I repeat that I wouldn’t be part of conducting any raid like that because it is clearly criminal, and likely to end in the kind of deadly violence that eventuated.

    Of course Gazans must bear some of the responsibility. But you don’t build a strong, democratic and peaceful society by starving, humiliating, and rendering homeless the citizens you hope to rely on – which appears to be Israel’s intent in Gaza.

    Fletch, one of the people I know to have been on that flotilla was Camoin Butterly, who was herself shot in the leg by Israeli soldiers in 2002 for escorting Palestinian children to primary school. She is brave enough to go back for more because she believes in nonviolence and justice.

    What has been your contribution exactly (apart from expressing inflammatory opinions from the comfort of your office?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  95. Fletch (6,497 comments) says:

    Bryla, and what has been yours? Supporting the 3 terrorists at Waihopai?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  96. Bryla (263 comments) says:

    Gee Fletch, weren’t they acquitted of all charges in a Court of Law. Still I guess you don’t like the rule of law any time do you?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  97. virtualmark (1,540 comments) says:

    Bryla … some comments about the raid being conducted at night …

    Firstly, from a tactical point of view it would be a surprise to do this during daylight. I expect the Israelis have been closely observing this flotilla since long before it sailed. I’m sure they had a fairly good idea of the response they would get when they boarded the ship. The tactical setting of a limited number of men (since helicopters can only carry at most 15 or so soldiers) fast-roping down to a moving ship, one by one, needing a few seconds to release the rope and get their footing before they are ready for action … all the while when you know there are at least a few hundred pro-Palestinian activists on board. Yes, of course they would go at night. The soldiers would understand that they train at night, they have the advantage at night. They would know that the best time to go would be between 3am and 5am.

    Secondly, from a pragmatic point of view, my understanding is that the interception was about 75 miles off the coast of Gaza. Given the speed these vessels travel, and the likelihood that the flotilla would scatter at daybreak (to make interception more difficult) then the timing was such that if there were to be an interception it had to be done then.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  98. Andrew W (1,629 comments) says:

    Good on those people for standing up to protect themselves and their property from armed intruders, we need to see more of that sort of thing.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  99. Bryla (263 comments) says:

    virtualmark, are you saying the flotilla was an act of war? And that it’s tactics were military in nature? What piffle.

    The Flotilla was an act of civil disobedience, declared in advance, and conducted so openly it had journalists on board.

    Israel could have put one or two pilots on board in daylight, under international observation, and exercised both public relations nous and political authority in such a manner as to strengthen the rule of law, and command respect. They didn’t. They killed instead.

    Soldiers take risks. No responsible nation conducts operations so that their own soldiers are kept absolutely safe by the murder of civilians.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  100. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Of course Gazans must bear some of the responsibility. But you don’t build a strong, democratic and peaceful society by starving, humiliating, and rendering homeless the citizens you hope to rely on – which appears to be Israel’s intent in Gaza.

    The first requirement of peace with one’s neighbor is allowing them the right to exist. Israel wants peace. The Palestinian leaders (and most of the other 200m Arab’s) want to erase Israel from the map. Not a good starting point is it?

    Further, it’s a Gazan, not Isrealii, responsibility to build a strong, democratic and peaceful Gazan society .. if they want this. Or they could continue to pursue their destruction of Israel, and to hell with the consequences of their own people. The choice is theirs. Looks to me like they’re are choosing unwisely.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  101. Lance (2,719 comments) says:

    @ Grumpy

    If Turkey goes to war with Israel… Turkey will lose.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  102. virtualmark (1,540 comments) says:

    Bryla. As far as I can discern the blockade of Gaza has legal standing, and Israel is justified in intercepting any ships attempting to evade the blockade. And given the Karine A affair and other weapons smuggling attempts you’d have to say its not unreasonable for the Israelis to blockade Gaza.

    So, how do you propose the Israelis would enforce that blockade? How do you think the Israelis would “visit, board, search and seize” (to use the naval parlance)? Should they use the Boy Scouts? Or the Country Womens League?

    No the flotilla wasn’t an act of war. But I’m not sure it was an act of civil disobedience either. If it were Israeli citizens disobeying Israeli laws then yes it would be civil disobedience. But when it is Turkish citizens disobeying valid Israeli legal claims then it is an international incident, not a civil one.

    Question for you. It’s clear from the video evidence that the people in the flotilla were up for a fight and were prepared to use life threatening force. I would suggest that Israel knew that, given they must have been observing this flotilla for some time. What do you think would have happened if the Israelis had sent aboard one or two (unarmed) pilots? Do you think the ships would have stopped?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  103. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Bryla
    You are not correct and I suspect deliberately so.
    If they had all been Israeli citizens it might be considered civil disobedience, but they were not were they?
    If the background wasn’t the smuggling of weapons and war materials or materials that freed up war materials then I might give you some leeway.
    It isn’t and hasn’t been as you well know.

    They were both people and agents who are against both the existence of the State of Israel and people working with Hamas, an organisation dedicated to destroying the state of Israel and killing Israeli citizens.
    That they had Turkish and other nationals on baord merely contributes to a international conspiricy.

    Therefore anyone assisting them and enabling Hamas in it’s aims are not carrying out civil disobedience are they?

    The journalists were not so it was open but they were to add to the incident and make it more harmful to the Israelis.
    Where do you live lah lah land?

    Lastly, your contention about oh it would have been so nice if the Israelis had come in daylight and approached these peaceful people doesn’t wash either.

    1. they were told in no uncertain terms not to come.
    2. I think they would have prevaricated and played for time to create an incident.
    3. I don’t think they wouldn’t have been peaceful.
    4. the element of surprise and initiative would have been lost.
    5. one or two pilots in international waters ? duh who are you kidding.
    6. it was not going to be a goer to let them get close to land.

    But you know all of this anyway.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  104. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    Seems like it might be time for Turkey to take a basting. Karma for the Armenian Genocide at last?

    If the coast guard tells a vessel to stop and they don’t, what would you expect to happen?

    Feeling lucky Oi Vey? Go ahead, make my day…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  105. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    RightNow (809) Says:
    June 1st, 2010 at 12:30 pm

    says it all.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  106. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Jeff83 – So, “based on international law” would you care to pass judgement on Qassam Rockets and Mortars Fired (Combined) from Gaza, 2001-2008?

    jeff jeff where are you?
    I’d like to know too.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  107. virtualmark (1,540 comments) says:

    RightNow … alternatively, this is a very cunning plan devised by the Turkish islamists which has achieved several objectives for them in one swoop.

    Firstly, it strengthens Turkey’s standing in the “Arab street” as the Muslim country doing the most to help the Palestinians and, by extension, “fight” Israel. So Turkey wins a positioning war with Iran in particular.

    Secondly, it strengthens Turkey’s standing as the regional leader of the Muslim world, who other countries such as the USA, Europe, Russia etc have to deal with as they look to engage and shape the Muslim world. So Turkey strengthens its hand against Iran, Egypt & Saudi Arabia in particular.

    Thirdly, it is a big win in the ongoing battle between the Turkish (Islamist) government and the Turkish (secular) military. There’s a real power struggle going on between those two groups. The military has had good relations with Israel for many years. The government has just compromised that quite effectively.

    What it has little or nothing to do with is the Palestinians. Once again the Palestinians are just a chess pawn being moved around the board by Muslim countries and by Israel.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  108. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    good points virtualmark

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  109. RKBee (1,344 comments) says:

    The Pro-Palestinian activists now have Turkey on their side… Israel now has no friendly allies in their region.
    Way to go Israel… they only have the US now… and under Obama thats looking iffy.
    Some of the rest of us by-standers may look on with good intentions but we won’t fight in or for your wars.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  110. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    http://muqata.blogspot.com/2010/05/anti-shalit-flotilla-updates.html

    Theres what your fucking “peace activists” were carrying.

    Well, that’s what the IDF was able to present for the cameras after a search. Most of it looks like kitchen knives and ship equipment. Shame they couldn’t find those guns.

    The Turkish Prime Minister has issued a statement saying that the vessels in the flotilla were searched and the bona fides of their passengers checked before the flotilla embarked, so I’m not really expecting guns to be found.

    FWIW, the raw video taken by several broadcasters seems to indicate the IDF started shooting before the fight scene, and continued after the lead ship’s captain ran up a white flag. Unfortunately, the TV relay was then closed down by the IDF, along with all other communications, so there’s no independent record of much of what happened. I’m sure you’ll be able to come up with a rationalisation for that.

    At best, this is another chapter in Israel’s official idiocy. Its troops have boarded vessels under the flag of Turkey, the neighbouring state with which Israel had — until now — the best relationship, and killed and wounded dozens of people.

    It has done so in defence of a blockade regarded as illegal by the international community, one which has effectively made Gaza into an open prison. The UN estimates that Israel’s monopoly on aid is providing only a quarter of what the territory requires. Whatever slim home the Israeli government has had of resolution, and an end to keeping three million people basically imprisoned, has been badly damaged. The US will, as ever, veto the independent investigation the Turkish government is demanding, but the damage has really been done.

    And it’s just been reported that the incident has pushed Fatah into a reconcilialition with Hamas. Way to go, Murray. This is working a treat, isn’t it?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  111. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    This is an interesting viewpoint.
    (
    On Sunday, Israeli naval forces intercepted the ships of a Turkish nongovernmental organization (NGO) delivering humanitarian supplies to Gaza. Israel had demanded that the vessels not go directly to Gaza but instead dock in Israeli ports, where the supplies would be offloaded and delivered to Gaza. The Turkish NGO refused, insisting on going directly to Gaza. Gunfire ensued when Israeli naval personnel boarded one of the vessels, and a significant number of the passengers and crew on the ship were killed or wounded.

    Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon charged that the mission was simply an attempt to provoke the Israelis. That was certainly the case. The mission was designed to demonstrate that the Israelis were unreasonable and brutal. The hope was that Israel would be provoked to extreme action, further alienating Israel from the global community and possibly driving a wedge between Israel and the United States. The operation’s planners also hoped this would trigger a political crisis in Israel.

    A logical Israeli response would have been avoiding falling into the provocation trap and suffering the political repercussions the Turkish NGO was trying to trigger. Instead, the Israelis decided to make a show of force. The Israelis appear to have reasoned that backing down would demonstrate weakness and encourage further flotillas to Gaza, unraveling the Israeli position vis-à-vis Hamas. In this thinking, a violent interception was a superior strategy to accommodation regardless of political consequences. Thus, the Israelis accepted the bait and were provoked.
    The ‘Exodus’ Scenario

    In the 1950s, an author named Leon Uris published a book called “Exodus.” Later made into a major motion picture, Exodus told the story of a Zionist provocation against the British. In the wake of World War II, the British — who controlled Palestine, as it was then known — maintained limits on Jewish immigration there. Would-be immigrants captured trying to run the blockade were detained in camps in Cyprus. In the book and movie, Zionists planned a propaganda exercise involving a breakout of Jews — mostly children — from the camp, who would then board a ship renamed the Exodus. When the Royal Navy intercepted the ship, the passengers would mount a hunger strike. The goal was to portray the British as brutes finishing the work of the Nazis. The image of children potentially dying of hunger would force the British to permit the ship to go to Palestine, to reconsider British policy on immigration, and ultimately to decide to abandon Palestine and turn the matter over to the United Nations.

    There was in fact a ship called Exodus, but the affair did not play out precisely as portrayed by Uris, who used an amalgam of incidents to display the propaganda war waged by the Jews. Those carrying out this war had two goals. The first was to create sympathy in Britain and throughout the world for Jews who, just a couple of years after German concentration camps, were now being held in British camps. Second, they sought to portray their struggle as being against the British. The British were portrayed as continuing Nazi policies toward the Jews in order to maintain their empire. The Jews were portrayed as anti-imperialists, fighting the British much as the Americans had.

    It was a brilliant strategy. By focusing on Jewish victimhood and on the British, the Zionists defined the battle as being against the British, with the Arabs playing the role of people trying to create the second phase of the Holocaust. The British were portrayed as pro-Arab for economic and imperial reasons, indifferent at best to the survivors of the Holocaust. Rather than restraining the Arabs, the British were arming them. The goal was not to vilify the Arabs but to villify the British, and to position the Jews with other nationalist groups whether in India or Egypt rising against the British.

    The precise truth or falsehood of this portrayal didn’t particularly matter. For most of the world, the Palestine issue was poorly understood and not a matter of immediate concern. The Zionists intended to shape the perceptions of a global public with limited interest in or understanding of the issues, filling in the blanks with their own narrative. And they succeeded.

    The success was rooted in a political reality. Where knowledge is limited, and the desire to learn the complex reality doesn’t exist, public opinion can be shaped by whoever generates the most powerful symbols. And on a matter of only tangential interest, governments tend to follow their publics’ wishes, however they originate. There is little to be gained for governments in resisting public opinion and much to be gained by giving in. By shaping the battlefield of public perception, it is thus possible to get governments to change positions.

    In this way, the Zionists’ ability to shape global public perceptions of what was happening in Palestine — to demonize the British and turn the question of Palestine into a Jewish-British issue — shaped the political decisions of a range of governments. It was not the truth or falsehood of the narrative that mattered. What mattered was the ability to identify the victim and victimizer such that global opinion caused both London and governments not directly involved in the issue to adopt political stances advantageous to the Zionists. It is in this context that we need to view the Turkish flotilla.
    The Turkish Flotilla to Gaza

    The Palestinians have long argued that they are the victims of Israel, an invention of British and American imperialism. Since 1967, they have focused not so much on the existence of the state of Israel (at least in messages geared toward the West) as on the oppression of Palestinians in the occupied territories. Since the split between Hamas and Fatah and the Gaza War, the focus has been on the plight of the citizens of Gaza, who have been portrayed as the dispossessed victims of Israeli violence.

    The bid to shape global perceptions by portraying the Palestinians as victims of Israel was the first prong of a longtime two-part campaign. The second part of this campaign involved armed resistance against the Israelis. The way this resistance was carried out, from airplane hijackings to stone-throwing children to suicide bombers, interfered with the first part of the campaign, however. The Israelis could point to suicide bombings or the use of children against soldiers as symbols of Palestinian inhumanity. This in turn was used to justify conditions in Gaza. While the Palestinians had made significant inroads in placing Israel on the defensive in global public opinion, they thus consistently gave the Israelis the opportunity to turn the tables. And this is where the flotilla comes in.

    The Turkish flotilla aimed to replicate the Exodus story or, more precisely, to define the global image of Israel in the same way the Zionists defined the image that they wanted to project. As with the Zionist portrayal of the situation in 1947, the Gaza situation is far more complicated than as portrayed by the Palestinians. The moral question is also far more ambiguous. But as in 1947, when the Zionist portrayal was not intended to be a scholarly analysis of the situation but a political weapon designed to define perceptions, the Turkish flotilla was not designed to carry out a moral inquest.

    Instead, the flotilla was designed to achieve two ends. The first is to divide Israel and Western governments by shifting public opinion against Israel. The second is to create a political crisis inside Israel between those who feel that Israel’s increasing isolation over the Gaza issue is dangerous versus those who think any weakening of resolve is dangerous.
    The Geopolitical Fallout for Israel

    It is vital that the Israelis succeed in portraying the flotilla as an extremist plot. Whether extremist or not, the plot has generated an image of Israel quite damaging to Israeli political interests. Israel is increasingly isolated internationally, with heavy pressure on its relationship with Europe and the United States.

    In all of these countries, politicians are extremely sensitive to public opinion. It is difficult to imagine circumstances under which public opinion will see Israel as the victim. The general response in the Western public is likely to be that the Israelis probably should have allowed the ships to go to Gaza and offload rather than to precipitate bloodshed. Israel’s enemies will fan these flames by arguing that the Israelis prefer bloodshed to reasonable accommodation. And as Western public opinion shifts against Israel, Western political leaders will track with this shift.

    The incident also wrecks Israeli relations with Turkey, historically an Israeli ally in the Muslim world with longstanding military cooperation with Israel. The Turkish government undoubtedly has wanted to move away from this relationship, but it faced resistance within the Turkish military and among secularists. The new Israeli action makes a break with Israel easy, and indeed almost necessary for Ankara.

    With roughly the population of Houston, Texas, Israel is just not large enough to withstand extended isolation, meaning this event has profound geopolitical implications.

    Public opinion matters where issues are not of fundamental interest to a nation. Israel is not a fundamental interest to other nations. The ability to generate public antipathy to Israel can therefore reshape Israeli relations with countries critical to Israel. For example, a redefinition of U.S.-Israeli relations will have much less effect on the United States than on Israel. The Obama administration, already irritated by the Israelis, might now see a shift in U.S. public opinion that will open the way to a new U.S.-Israeli relationship disadvantageous to Israel.

    The Israelis will argue that this is all unfair, as they were provoked. Like the British, they seem to think that the issue is whose logic is correct. But the issue actually is, whose logic will be heard? As with a tank battle or an airstrike, this sort of warfare has nothing to do with fairness. It has to do with controlling public perception and using that public perception to shape foreign policy around the world. In this case, the issue will be whether the deaths were necessary. The Israeli argument of provocation will have limited traction.

    Internationally, there is little doubt that the incident will generate a firestorm. Certainly, Turkey will break cooperation with Israel. Opinion in Europe will likely harden. And public opinion in the United States — by far the most important in the equation — might shift to a “plague-on-both-your-houses” position.

    While the international reaction is predictable, the interesting question is whether this evolution will cause a political crisis in Israel. Those in Israel who feel that international isolation is preferable to accommodation with the Palestinians are in control now. Many in the opposition see Israel’s isolation as a strategic threat. Economically and militarily, they argue, Israel cannot survive in isolation. The current regime will respond that there will be no isolation. The flotilla aimed to generate what the government has said would not happen.

    The tougher Israel is, the more the flotilla’s narrative takes hold. As the Zionists knew in 1947 and the Palestinians are learning, controlling public opinion requires subtlety, a selective narrative and cynicism. As they also knew, losing the battle can be catastrophic. It cost Britain the Mandate and allowed Israel to survive. Israel’s enemies are now turning the tables. This maneuver was far more effective than suicide bombings or the Intifada in challenging Israel’s public perception and therefore its geopolitical position (though if the Palestinians return to some of their more distasteful tactics like suicide bombing, the Turkish strategy of portraying Israel as the instigator of violence will be undermined).

    Israel is now in uncharted waters. It does not know how to respond. It is not clear that the Palestinians know how to take full advantage of the situation, either. But even so, this places the battle on a new field, far more fluid and uncontrollable than what went before. The next steps will involve calls for sanctions against Israel. The Israeli threats against Iran will be seen in a different context, and Israeli portrayal of Iran will hold less sway over the world.

    And this will cause a political crisis in Israel. If this government survives, then Israel is locked into a course that gives it freedom of action but international isolation. If the government falls, then Israel enters a period of domestic uncertainty. In either case, the flotilla achieved its strategic mission. It got Israel to take violent action against it. In doing so, Israel ran into its own fist.)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  112. davidp (3,588 comments) says:

    krazykiwi>A small technical point tho: The Israeli’s were attached before they boarded. They were still rappelling above the deck when the first blows landed on them!

    So the Israelis were attacked while they were dangling in international air space?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  113. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Good link Tim
    http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Special_Alert_Flotilla_Battle_Unleashes_Anti-Israel_Wave.asp

    If there was any doubt that these organizations were unconcerned with universal human rights, this was confirmed by the rejection of a request from the family of Gilad Shalit for activists to pressure Hamas to allow international organizations to bring letters and food packages to the kidnapped soldier in exchange for the family’s support for the international expedition’s attempt to dock in Gaza.

    In fact, Israel offered to transfer the supplies on the flotilla to Gaza from Ashdod port through official channels, an offer that was rejected in favor of confrontation on the part of the anti-Israel activists. As flotilla organizer Greta Berlin stated: “this mission is not about delivering humanitarian supplies, it’s about breaking Israel’s siege.”

    The flotilla was clearly warned by the Israeli Navy in advance of the boarding and the offer repeated by the IDF.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  114. freethinker (696 comments) says:

    If the Turks put their intentions to escort supply ships with their Navy Israel will have effectively escalated, unnecessarily a dangerous situation, I cannot figure why an intelligent nation would risk this unless the intention was to provoke military conflict so under its guise could take other action – nuke Iranian nuclear installations perhaps. Time for Obama to tell Netanyahu US support has been terminated – but with the highly vociferous Jewish lobby in Washington he probably won’t be allowed to – perhaps the US wants a localized war to stimulate the global economy as inflation doesn’t look like riding to the rescue. After all the potential of terminating possibly millions of Arabs/Muslims will justify the loss of much lesser numbers of Jews as collateral damage may be quite attractive.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  115. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Yeah Grumpy
    good subterfuge by you.
    http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_e105.htm

    4. IHH’s orientation is radical-Islamic and anti-American, and it is close to the Muslim Brotherhood (Hamas’ parent movement). IHH supports Hamas and does not hide the connection between them. Hamas also considers its links to IHH and Turkey to be extremely important, and regards Turkey as a target audience for its propaganda network (Palestine-Information, Hamas’ main website, has a Turkish version, and as of the end of 2009, the website of its military wing, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, has also appeared in Turkish).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  116. backster (2,185 comments) says:

    Seems to me this was a deliberate tactic by Turkey using these criminal zealots to provoke a response that might justify a Turk led Jihad against Israel.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  117. tvb (4,519 comments) says:

    Israel is a failed state run by its security apparatus. They figure they can do what they like so long as they have the support of the US. But the US has wider security interests in the middle east apart from Israel, as General Petreaus made clear recently. There will come a day when the US may have to chose between Israel and its other interests in the middle east. We have important trading interests in the middle east and Israel ‘s existence does not matter much to New Zealanders. I doubt NZers would support sending troops to defend Israel, though I suspect NZ would have to up its commitment to Afghanistan to assist the US in any war affecting Israel.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  118. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    Lance, you and Bevan visitors are you ? because you cannot be kiwis.
    Never heard of Gallipoli where even the Anzacs came second to the Turks ?
    Or Beersheba, where the Turks gave the Brits a hammering ?

    But it will be bloody funny to see a video of Israelis fast roping down on to a Turkish frigate.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  119. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    tvb opines:

    “Israel is a failed state run by its security apparatus”

    Yeah, here are some of their ‘failures’

    Demographics:
    Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees per capita in the world.
    Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation in the world – by a large margin.
    Israel has the highest number of scientists and technicians per capita in the world – by a large margin.
    Israel has the highest number of engineers per capita in the world.
    Israel has the highest number of PhD’s per capita in the world.
    Israel has the highest number of physicians per capita in the world.
    Israel has the largest percentage of it’s workforce employed in technical professions in the world.
    Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation in the world, per capita.
    Israel is the only country in the Middle East where the Christian population has grown over the last 50 years.
    Israel is the only country in the Middle East where Christians, Muslims and Jews are all free to vote.
    Israel is the only country in the Middle East where women enjoy full political rights.

    Economics:
    Israel has the largest number of start up companies per capita in the world.
    Israel is the world’s largest wholesale diamond centre, finally surpassing Antwerp in the 1970’s. Most of the cut & polished diamonds in the world come from Israel .
    Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies outside of the US and Canada .
    Israel was the first country to have a free trade agreement with the United States .
    Apart from the Silicon Valley , Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world.

    If only NZ could learn how to ‘fail’ like Israel !

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  120. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    backster, well done dear boy, of course the bloody Turkish Islamic government wanted the Israelis to stop the flotilla and having a couple of Turks killed by the IDF was grist to the bloody mill.

    Now the idiotic Israeli government has got the majority of the Turkish population to swing behind the ruling government when it comes to Israel.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  121. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    Interesting times. I wonder if some (like Obama) are actually trying to nudge this toward a full scale war, possibly nuclear.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  122. virtualmark (1,540 comments) says:

    Russell …

    At best, this is another chapter in Israel’s official idiocy. Its troops have boarded vessels under the flag of Turkey, the neighbouring state with which Israel had — until now — the best relationship, and killed and wounded dozens of people.

    Or, alternatively, this was a very cleverly developed initiative that, to use a chess analogy, forced Israel to choose between sacrificing its rook or its Queen. Either Israel had to intercept this flotilla and create an international incident (which the flotilla was more than happy to fuel), or it had to allow it on its way and then watch as an armada of several concurrent flotillas all set sail in a few months time. I don’t think Israel had any good option. They sacrificed the rook.

    It has done so in defence of a blockade regarded as illegal by the international community

    “blockade regarded as illegal” is not the same as “blockade that is illegal” though is it? I can only assume that the reason people write “regarded as illegal” is because it isn’t actually illegal, just that they wish it was. I don’t say that with malice, I’m genuinely curious to understand the legal grounds (or not) of the blockade. But just because the UN human rights commission thinks it’s illegal doesn’t cut it, particularly given their biases.

    And it’s just been reported that the incident has pushed Fatah into a reconcilialition with Hamas.

    Want to put a bet on them still being reconciled in 6 months time? Sure, this is something Fatah and Hamas can both agree on. But next week it’ll be yesterday’s news, and Fatah and Hamas will go back to their great counter-productive squabbling about just which corrupt set of nepotists rules the rubbish dump.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  123. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    If the Turks put their intentions to escort supply ships with their Navy Israel will have effectively escalated, unnecessarily a dangerous situation

    No, if Turkey intends to escort the ships with their Navy, then TURKEY will be escalating the situation.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  124. virtualmark (1,540 comments) says:

    RightNow … WTF?

    Take more meds.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  125. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    grumpyoldhori: Lance, you and Bevan visitors are you ? because you cannot be kiwis.
    Never heard of Gallipoli where even the Anzacs came second to the Turks ?
    Or Beersheba, where the Turks gave the Brits a hammering ?

    Gallipolli has no comparison whatsoever regarding a possible conflict between Israel and Turkey. A far more accurate comparison would be what happened to the great Arab armies against the numerically inferior Israeli forces in 1948, 1953, 1967 and 1973.

    grumpyoldhori: But it will be bloody funny to see a video of Israelis fast roping down on to a Turkish frigate.

    You dont board a naval frigate attempting to break a blockade, you sink it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  126. Jeff83 (745 comments) says:

    To those questioning the rockets / mortars fired from Gaza

    Jeff83 – So, “based on international law” would you care to pass judgement on Qassam Rockets and Mortars Fired (Combined) from Gaza, 2001-2008?

    jeff jeff where are you?
    I’d like to know too.

    Sorry I didn’t give you an instant answer. Reading this thread to be honest is infuriating and so I take it in doses. Its not that all are unreasonable, or that there is not two sides to the story. But the blantent unrelenting bias from those like Murray / Fox News (I read their articles to get “balance cough” like they know themeaning of the word).

    What do I think of the mortars fired at civilians in Israel. That it is a war crime. What do I think of the Israeli invasion of Gaza killing 1100 people, or the one in Lebannon killing the same number and destroying the economy of the region, a fucking war crime. The difference is one is conducted by a group like the IRA, and the other is undertaken by a government.

    Now I hear your little cries of joy, BUT gaza elected Hamas. Yes they did, after 30 years of failed negotiations to try and get a peaceful outcome, each resulting in destruction. Do I think the Palestinines blameless, no cleaerly not and have largely been let down by their leaders (Yassar Arafat for example – closest we came to a real peace settlement he scuttled in fear). But all of this is not justification for the extreme measures Israel has now adopted.

    Lets be clear Israel has gone well beyond what it used to do in the last few years, it has:
    – attacked and killed members of a European state (turkish people on board)
    – on the convoy above there were members who survived the Holocaust, who can’t stand that Israel is coming more and more the thing that it was to protect against.
    – those who think the embargo placed on Palestinine as being fair are kidding themselves. All but basics are banned, luxeries like “chocklate” banned, most petrol banned resulting in constant blackouts, medical supplies heavily limited. The worlds largest refugee camp can’t trade, cant move on because its given no rights at all.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  127. amyisraelchai (1 comment) says:

    The Turks have no room to talk- ask the armenians

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  128. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    virtualmark, if Israel can’t rely on their traditional support to reach a peaceful resolution then they may be backed into a corner. I suspect Obama’s preferred outcome in the middle east would be for Israel to be exterminated.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  129. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Rightnow
    and it removes the affront it is to Islam doesn’t it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  130. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Jeff
    you forget Sgt Shalit Galid.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  131. GJ (329 comments) says:

    Some good advise is Don’t mess with Israel! Very seldom in my opinion does Israel received fair and balanced press for action they are often forced into by others.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  132. virtualmark (1,540 comments) says:

    RightNow … I suspect Obama’s preferred outcome in the Middle East would be to:
    * extract the USA from Iraq and from Afghanistan,
    * while maintaining a strong independent Iraq that isn’t captive to the Shiites, and so provides regional balance with Iran,
    * manage a smooth transition in Egypt when Mubarak (soon) passes away, leading to a non-Islamist government,
    * while also managing a similarly smooth transition in Saudi Arabia, where the line of succession is not clear,
    * and enticing Syria away from Iran’s influence,
    * which might mean allowing Syria to effectively re-build its control of Lebanon,
    * while not allowing Iran to use Hezbollah to trigger another Israeli-Hezbollah war just in order to screw the enticing of Syria away from Iran,
    * while also sorting out the Islamists in Yemen, who’re now proving to be the most capable of the Al Qaeda franchises,

    Gee, the list goes on. But nowhere in there do I see any mileage in having a war in the Middle East which sees anyone exterminated, least of all Israel who would be likely to eventually adopt the Samson defence.

    And, you know what, nowhere in there is sorting out the Palestinian problem a major priority. It just isn’t. That’s why it rumbles on for year after decade after generation.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  133. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali – Muslim apostate, victim of forced clitoridictomy, attempted forced marriage, forced political asylum from Holland to the US, and multiple death threats – has written another book. This one – Nomad – deals with Islam’s traditional, reactionary treatment of women and children.

    A recent review of the book did not celebrate her as a feminist heroine fighting for liberal freedoms:

    She has managed to outrage more people — in some cases to the point that they want to assassinate her — in more languages in more countries on more continents than almost any writer in the world today.
    ………………
    Now Hirsi Ali is working on antagonizing even more people in yet another memoir.
    …………..
    Soon her critique of Islam was leading to death threats, her citizenship was threatened by Dutch officials and she moved to a new refuge in the United States. Even now, she needs bodyguards. That’s partly because she is by nature a provocateur, the type of person who rolls out verbal hand grenades by reflex.
    …………….
    (For my part, I couldn’t help thinking that perhaps Hirsi Ali’s family is dysfunctional simply because its members never learned to bite their tongues and just say to one another: “I love you.”)
    ………….
    Since Hirsi Ali denounces Islam with a ferocity that I find strident, potentially feeding religious bigotry, I expected to dislike this book. It did leave me uncomfortable and exasperated in places. But I also enjoyed it.
    …………..
    In the same way, here in the West, we should try to have a conversation about Islam and its genuine problems — while speaking out against over-the-top exaggerations about the East. This memoir, while engaging and insightful in many places, exemplifies precisely the kind of rhetoric that is overheated and overstated.

    The reviewer who wrote this is the ‘moderate centre-left’ and/or ‘liberal’ commentator Nick Kristof in the NYT. He, and others of his ideological persausion, are willing to shun or fail to support someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali – someone who would be considered a left-wing liberal heroine in any other context.

    Incredibly, as the above quotes show, they are even able to blame her for inciting the violence visited upon her when all she has done is argue strongly for ideas – in her case, among other things, that little girls clitorises should not be cut out.

    Given their treatment of Ali, a person now living in the West who merely pushes words and ideas, what chance is there of the Western Left ever supporting Israel’s right to defend herself in any meaningful, practical sense; the banal veneer of of course every nation has a right to defend itself but….. .

    Anything Israel does – anything – will be re-defined by the Western Left as having stupidly ‘provoked a reaction’ or ‘played into the hands of extremists’ or ‘lost former friends’ or engaged in official idiocy. And that’s just the intellectually justifiable things that can be said in public.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  134. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    exactly MikeNZ. Low bow Obama can claim it is a tragedy while appeasing his brotherhood.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  135. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Jeff83 – What do you think would happen in the Middle East if the Arab aggressors put down their weapons and accorded Israel the right to exist? Seriously? I think there would be an outbreak of sustainable peace, and Israel would be really, really happy about that. Jews have, of course, been persecuted in every corner of the globe for generations, and each new generation hopes to be the last to endure that burden.

    I also think that peace is the last thing the Arabs want. It’s not about land or entitlement for them – that’s all a complete smokescreen. It’s about religious supremacy, and their religious beliefs will not let them rest while any Jew breathes anywhere on Earth. You and I should be concerned about that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  136. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    What will be funny to see is Turkey getting a good thrashing Grumpy, they have outstanding issues with all of their neighbors, Kurds, Armenians, Greeks and the Russians, to then risk a war with the Regional power? lmao the “yids” would stomp them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  137. virtualmark (1,540 comments) says:

    krazykiwi … perhaps rather than being about religious supremacy it’s also about the governments of those Middle East countries having a convenient bogey-man they can use to distract their populations’ attention away from their poor social and economic outcomes.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  138. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    virtualmark, wrt to the Samson defence, I appreciate the folly of taking actions that may lead to such a course of action. Yet still it seems that so many Western leaders are taking those actions. I’d like to believe that Obama has a wise plan for the middle east, but the evidence so far seems to suggest he receives poor counsel on the matter, isn’t actually up to the task, or sees appeasement of the muslim nations (possibly by sacrificing Israel) as the best course of action.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  139. kowtow (8,784 comments) says:

    Jeff83 @207
    Turkey is not a European state .

    It occupies European territory,Thrace and Constantinople,that does not make Turks European. They are from central Asia and since the Battle of Manzikert AD1071 have been a dangerous and destabalizing force on the eastern and southern flanks of Europe.
    They illegally occupy N Cyprus and foolish EU “leaders “advocate their membership of that union, something European electorates object to.
    The Turks engaged in genocide against the Armenians in 1915 and ethnic cleansing of a once large Greek community in Turkey in the 1920’s.To discuss this history in Turkey is a crime…..hardly a European value!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  140. virtualmark (1,540 comments) says:

    Banana Llama … there is no way that either Turkey or Israel is going to let this incident escalate to war. The Turks will be quite happy with a little bit of deniable adventurism which has gained them some valuable strategic wins. But there’s no way they’ll go on to back that up with actions which commit them to any sort of official formal conflict with Israel.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  141. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Bottom line for jeffy is the Jews are evil, nothing else matters and anyone who doesn;t agree with him is a moron or a retard or whatever clever name he wants to come up with.

    Anyone with relevent knowledge is to be attacked as “biased”. The funny thing is that jeff thinks hes both reasonable and orgional.

    Hell we’ve seen his kind before in every generation.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  142. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    virtualmark – yes quite probably a factor. Politicians for all religious leanings love to have an enemy to beat up on. It’s just an easier proposition when the hatred and violence is supported by religious texts (eg “The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them.” Koran 9:30)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  143. Komata (1,204 comments) says:

    This may be of interest: it was sourced from the International Christian Embassy, Jerusalem:

    Free Gaza’ flotilla greets IDF forces with armed ambush.

    Israeli naval forces finally intercepted the “Free Gaza” flotilla around 2:00 AM on Monday morning and, upon boarding the flagship of the six vessel convoy, discovered some passengers were “anything but peace activists,” as the IDF personnel were met by a “well-planned lynch,” leaving at least 10 people dead and dozens more injured in the ensuing melee.
    Although some Arabic media reports claim the Israeli troops opened fire upon boarding, the IDF insists that its troops were first attacked by a mob of activists on board the Mavi Marmara armed with knives, bats, and metal pipes, and that shots were also fired at the IDF forces. An initial IDF statement added that activists also began shooting with a gun wrested from an IDF soldier.
    “The demonstrators had clearly prepared their weapons in advance for this specific purpose,” said the IDF Spokesman. “As a result of this life-threatening and violent activity, naval forces employed riot dispersal means, including live fire.”
    “It was like a well-planned lynch,” one IDF officer said. “These people were anything but peace activists.”
    According to early reports, at least ten pro-Palestinian activists were killed and dozens more were wounded in the resulting skirmish, while six naval personnel were injured, one suffering a critical head wound.

    All of the injured, Israelis and foreigners, were being evacuated by helicopter to hospitals in Israel.

    [Comment by Komata: Note that: Despite the injuries that the ‘pacficists’ have inflicted, the Israeli’s actually take THOSE WHO INFLICTED THE INJURIES on the Israeli troops, to Israeli hospitals. Somehow I don’t see the Arabs doing the same if the situation was reversed]

    Foreign reports claim that the number of dead may be up to 19.
    Al Jazeera on Monday broadcast footage from the Mavi Marmara showing Israeli Navy commandos rappelling down ropes from a hovering helicopter and boarding the ship.

    After the skirmish, all passengers were ordered inside the cabins, and the IDF indicated the incident is not considered over as some activists may still be armed. The IDF is towing the ships to the port of Ashdod, where the cargo will be inspected and transferred to the Gaza Strip via land crossings, despite this morning’s violence. In the coming hours, Israeli authorities will identify the people on board the ships and most will be given the option of a free flight home or being arrested.

    [Komata comment: If it was the Arabic srtates there would be no way that anyone would be offered a free flight home – except possibly in a coffin or body bag!!]

    Israel is braced for rioting by Israeli Arabs today as the leader of the radical Islamic Movement in Israel was wounded in the clash and is undergoing an urgent operation.

    [Komata comment: A ‘Peace Activist’ radical Muslim cleric who has repeatedly called for the

    destruction of Israel? Methinks a contradiction]

    Activists aboard the ships had repeatedly said beforehand that they would not respond with violence to the navy’s interception of their flotilla.

    [Komata comment: Actions speak a lot louder than words]

    Al-Jazeera reported Turkish leaders called an emergency meeting to discuss responses to the attack at sea. The Israeli ambassador in Turkey was called in to offer explanations.
    Hamas Prime Minister Haniyeh also came on Al-Jazeera to condemn the “brutal attack” and called on the UN to intervene on the activists’ behalf.

    “The interception of the flotilla followed numerous warnings given to the organizers of the flotilla before leaving their ports as well as while sailing towards the Gaza Strip,” noted the IDF. “In these warnings, it was made clear to the organizers that they could dock in the Ashdod sea port and unload the equipment they are carrying in order to deliver it to the Gaza Strip in an orderly manner, following the appropriate security checks. Upon expressing their unwillingness to cooperate and arrive at the port, it was decided to board the ships and lead them to Ashdod.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  144. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    Banana Llama yep, thats what the IDF said about the Hezbollah, useless Arabs, no need to dig in we will take shelter from the night air in this house.
    Too bad about the anti tank missile that hit it.

    Again, same thing, they wandered into a village and then whined about being ambushed.
    Boasted their tanks could not be knocked out, modern double warhead missiles made a lie of that.

    The Brits told themselves how useless the Turks were in 1915, wonder why they got their arses kicked ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  145. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    The Israelis have an unbelievable talent for getting themselves loathed. You would think that the images of Muslim terrorists and mad mullahs not to mention the hideous, oppressive Arab dictatorships and other failed Muslim states would make little Israel a beacon of virtue in a dark world and a PR dream run.

    But no. State thuggery with a rhinoceros hide that would do Stalin proud seems engrained in their political psyche. It can only end badly for them and the only question is how long can they last.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  146. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    @Russell Brown. “Well, that’s what the IDF was able to present for the cameras after a search. Most of it looks like kitchen knives and ship equipment. Shame they couldn’t find those guns”

    Are you implying this “kitchen knife” was harmless?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  147. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    No Grumpy their position is untenable regardless of how well they do against the IDF because it wont just be the IDF, not Incirlik or the Bosporus will save them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  148. Christopher Thomson (377 comments) says:

    No, the Israelis don’t have an unbelievable talent. What we have is the bias of anti-Israeli propagandists who infest the media.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  149. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    Or, alternatively, this was a very cleverly developed initiative that, to use a chess analogy, forced Israel to choose between sacrificing its rook or its Queen. Either Israel had to intercept this flotilla and create an international incident (which the flotilla was more than happy to fuel), or it had to allow it on its way and then watch as an armada of several concurrent flotillas all set sail in a few months time. I don’t think Israel had any good option. They sacrificed the rook.

    The thing is, they have allowed these flotillas through on an intermittent basis in the past. I don’t see how they were obliged to violently board this flotilla in international waters, and if I heard the word “provocation” again …

    It’s another grotesque own-goal on the part of the IDF and Israel’s political class. I read all the same defences being offered here when the IDF bombed Lebabon into the ground, but that’s now almost universally acknowledged within Israel as a debacle in strategic terms and by most the rest of the world as a moral atrocity that killed 1200 civilians and wrecked an emergent democracy.

    Worst of all, it greatly empowered the party the IDF purported to be trying to destroy — Hezbollah, which re-radicalised and made huge gains in the internal strife that followed. And then in the end, Israel did the damn prisoner exchange anyway. For all the usual urgency of the noise machine, this is another blunder on the part of a leadership that simply cannot envisage a sustainable future.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  150. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    Banana Llama here is the amusing part, the Turks do not need to use their military power against Israel to fuck them up.
    Israel is running out of use able water and they were expecting to get what they needed from Turkey, I bet that has gone down the tubes.

    Now what friends does Israel have close by who will supply them with the water they need ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  151. Andrew W (1,629 comments) says:

    Komata and others, if it had been the armed forces of an Arab state attacking an Israeli civilian ship – in international waters – with the Israeli civilians fighting back against the aggressors, you’d (quite rightly) be defending the actions of the Israeli victims.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  152. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “No, the Israelis don’t have an unbelievable talent. What we have is the bias of anti-Israeli propagandists who infest the media.”

    B.S. Self-delusion in spades.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  153. kowtow (8,784 comments) says:

    Serious question.
    Is this Russel Brown the scruffy bugger on Media 7?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  154. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    grumpy – re water. They’ll just invent more/better desalination and re-cycling technology. And then licence it to the rest of us.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  155. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    and if I heard the word “provocation” again …

    Provocation.
    Provocation.
    Provocation.

    It was a deliberate PROVOCATION to manufacture an incident to stir more anti-Israeli sentiment. PROVOCATION

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  156. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    Are you implying this “kitchen knife” was harmless?

    No, it’s clearly an assault. The soldier was stabbed in the arm. That’s quite a long way from what the IDF photo purported to represent.

    But the rest of the world is, understandably, going to look at TV pictures captured before the IDF shut down the broadcast, and see people in lifejackets bleeding to death.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  157. Danyl Mclauchlan (1,071 comments) says:

    Free Gaza’ flotilla greets IDF forces with armed ambush.

    Ah, the old trick-them-into-storming-your-boat-with-armed-commandos-by-night ambush. Sneaky.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  158. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “It was a deliberate PROVOCATION to manufacture an incident to stir more anti-Israeli sentiment.”

    Probably. But it was first a creature of resentment of the blockade. Provocation abounds on all sides.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  159. kowtow (8,784 comments) says:

    The footage shows an Israeli being thrown over board………very peaceful indeed!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  160. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    “The left-wing blogosphere is full of useful idiots, who pretend that the flotilla which just was stopped by Israel was a humanitarian mission.

    The flotilla was organized by the Islamist government in Turkey to aid Hamas with the goal of opening up shipping channels for Turkey’s new friend, Iran, to ship more and better weapons as it is doing to Hezbollah in Lebanon. Iran is busy turning Lebanon and Syria into one large missile launching pad against Israel, and a southern base in Gaza will complete the encirclement of Israel for the coming crisis over Iran’s nuclear program.

    The Europeans on the ships were cover, and the placement of an 18-month old child on these ships was the utmost cynical use of a human shield.

    If getting humanitarian supplies to Gaza really was the goal, this flotilla was not necessary. The supplies would have been off-loaded in Eqypt or Israel and then shipped in by land after being checked for hidden weapons.

    And that is the rub, only sea-based shipping would provide Iran with the mechanism for almost unlimited armament of Hamas. There is a limit to the quantity and size of missiles and other armaments which can be smuggled through tunnels from Egypt. That is why the sea blockade must be broken for Iran to get what it wants.

    But the useful idiots (no offense to idiots) in the left-wing blogosphere ignore this reality, and use the incident for their ultimate goal, which is the cut off of U.S. support for Israel.”
    http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2010/05/useful-idiots-condemn-israel.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  161. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Oh, so just a stab in the arm is just an assault – still a long way from a peaceful protest?

    I suppose this beating with clubs was peacefully asking the IDF to leave the ship?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  162. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    The point being, the purpose of the blockade is for Israel’s protection. Enforce it or die, even if they die enforcing it, as they will certainly die if Hamas gets bigger missiles. What is unreasonable about wanting to inspect the ships?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  163. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    Banana Llama here is the amusing part, the Turks do not need to use their military power against Israel to fuck them up.
    Israel is running out of use able water and they were expecting to get what they needed from Turkey, I bet that has gone down the tubes.

    I suspect you’re right. Israel and Turkey struck a deal in 2002 for the latter to supply Israel with water for 20 years, with arms to Turkey forming part of the payment. At the time, a Sharon spokesman said “Turkey is an important part of our overall regional policy.”

    Now, they’ve attacked an aid ship under Turkish flag in international waters and killed people. The Turkish PM has accused Israel of “state terrorism” and the Israeli government has just told all Israeli nationals in Turkey to get the fuck out. That water might just stop flowing too.

    It gets worse. Turkey has been playing a key role in talking down the loons in Iran, and brokered the deal in which Iran agreed to deposit most of its stock of low-enriched uranium with Turkey in exchange for a supply of reactor fuel. Not perfect, but way better than anyone else has been able to achieve.

    (I suspect some of y’all would like a war on Iran. You probably wouldn’t like the price of oil doubling and the closure of the Gulf to shipping traffic for an indeterminate period. Just sayin’.)

    This is a massive, massive fuckup from people who seem to specialise in them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  164. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    And the UN reports Tehran has enough nuclear material to make two nuclear weapons.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  165. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “What is unreasonable about wanting to inspect the ships?” Nothing, but they didn’t stop there, did they?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  166. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    The point being, the purpose of the blockade is for Israel’s protection.

    They’ve declined to enforce the blockade a number of times in similar circumstances. In this case, they had the guarantee of a partner government that the flotilla was not carrying arms.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  167. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    And the UN reports Tehran has enough nuclear material to make two nuclear weapon.

    And an intermediary now considerably less inclined to do anything about it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  168. virtualmark (1,540 comments) says:

    Russell …

    The thing is, they have allowed these flotillas through on an intermittent basis in the past. I don’t see how they were obliged to violently board this flotilla in international waters, and if I hear{d} the word “provocation” again …

    The thing is, they have also intercepted plenty of ships before too, and not just on an intermittent basis. Remember Israel has experience of arms coming in via freighter, such as the Karine A and the Francop. So it’s not unreasonable for them to intercept large vessels heading for Gaza.

    I suspect that any earlier flotillas which have been allowed through in the past (can you point to any specific examples?) may well have been far smaller and with more … peaceful … intentions.

    It’s another grotesque own-goal on the part of the IDF and Israel’s political class

    No argument from me on that one. But I do also figure that they had no good choices here. Just as they had no good choices with Hezbollah in Lebanon.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  169. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Provocation abounds on all sides.

    Perhaps it does. Can there be a greater provocation than Gaza’s elected leaders vowing to kill all Jews and Zionists and refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of the Israeli State? Do you think things might cool down if this wasn’t a Palestinian prerequisite?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  170. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    The only way to get through to this arrogant regime would be to impliment a world wide trade embargo against them. Including the supply of money and military equipment from the United States.

    Because persecuting, prosecuting and completely isolating 7.5 million people with a racial memory of genocide and 200 nuclear weapons is the safe option.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  171. flipper (4,237 comments) says:

    The balance that one needs in any discussion on this matter will not be found in the Lamestream Media nor, I regret to say, most Blogs.

    However, the IDF has posted several illuminating video clips on the following address:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  172. AlphaKiwi (683 comments) says:

    I really wonder about all these lefties and “peace activists” who are standing up for Islamists. They seem too stupid to realize that once the Islamists have become powerful enough, the lefties will be on their list to be wiped out. Lefties are expendable in Islamists’ eyes and are just a useful pawn that serves their agenda. Nothing more.

    Neither do I support Israel. I think it’s a Middle Eastern problem and the West should stay out of it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  173. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    The difference is one is conducted by a group like the IRA, and the other is undertaken by a government.
    …………….
    They (hamas supporters/enablers) intended to have this happen and they knew that deaths would eventuate and prepared for that in the full glare of PR TV.

    It’s called assymetric warfare.

    It’s been a very popular strategy against Israel since 1973. It requires a larger emphasis on propaganda than traditional warfare. In fact that’s a key component, but it requires the assistance of parties external to the conflict if it is to work, and all that is needed at a minimum is their silence, which also suits their neutrality. Perfect for our age.

    And in that vein….

    IF ANY country did this shit it would be harsly condemed.

    I noted the huge outpouring of global protest some weeks ago when that South Korean corvette sank with 46 dead sailors after having it’s stern blown off in a surprise sneak attack by North Korean.

    Wait….. none of you saw that?

    Of course. We must use the sophistry of corvette vs freighter, ceasefire vs peace process, war vs terrorism, and military vs. civilian in order to talk about the differences, when they’re actually just a cover for the common fact that is basic to both situations and that people wish to ignore.

    These are wars.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  174. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “Can there be a greater provocation than Gaza’s elected leaders vowing to kill all Jews and Zionists and refusing to acknowledge the legitimacy of the Israeli State?”

    How about actually killing your friends and family in their own streets and homes?

    Tit for tat, eye for an eye is futile. Check out what utu did for Maori. And they didn’t have the prospect of nuclear weapons.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  175. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “I noted the huge outpouring of global protest some weeks ago when that South Korean corvette sank with 46 dead sailors after having it’s stern blown off in a surprise sneak attack by North Korean.

    Wait….. none of you saw that?”

    I don’t see anyone regarding North Korea with anything other than utter contempt and disgust. Since it is already completely isolated there are not too many embassies or businesses to protest to.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  176. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    Alan: “What is unreasonable about wanting to inspect the ships?” Nothing, but they didn’t stop there, did they?

    Actually they didn’t even get to start before they were attacked so that doesn’t stack up sorry. They subdued the resistance as necessary.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  177. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    Just to correct myself, I wrote “three million” as Gaza’s population and didn’t realise it till the edit window had expired. Not sure what I was thinking. It’s more like 1.5 million.

    Still quite a lot of people to deny freedom of movement and basic supplies for years on end.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  178. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    So will Israel learn a damn thing from this or will they greet the next flotilla with shellfire to make sure they kill a lot more Turks and Europeans.

    Because there will be more flotillas, now the Israelis are safe in killing Palestinians but killing Europeans and more Turks would not be overly clever.

    Tom Hunter, Israel will use their nukes against say France or the UK if they are boycotted, in your dreams.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  179. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    I certainly think Israel will learn from this GOH. Perhaps their lessons from this time will be “well, we tried offering to transport the aid ourselves, we tried asking the flotilla nicely, we even boarded them with paint guns, but still it all seems to be our fault, so next time we should just blow them up”.
    Do you think the Turks will learn a damn thing from this or will they deliberately entice an act of war from Israel?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  180. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    RightNow: “They subdued the resistance as necessary.”

    Stalin couldn’t have said it better. And he also enjoyed using military force on unarmed civilians.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  181. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    Stalin possibly could have said it better, if he wasn’t busy killing people. Not a very relevant retort though Alan, I take it you concede you don’t have an actual reasoned response?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  182. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    you are a moron..rightnow..

    ’till now turkey was one of the few muslim allies israel had..

    ..and has been acting as a peace-broker in the region..

    ..(one of the few successful at this endeavor..)

    but hey..!

    don’t let any facts get in the way of yr ideology-driven fantasy..

    ..eh..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  183. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    Tom Hunter, Israel will use their nukes against say France or the UK if they are boycotted, in your dreams.

    I was making a quip to demonstrate the possibly poor consequences that might eventuate if such a fanciful isolation scenario as the one put forward by an earlier commentator, actually came to fruition.

    To spell it out for you more clearly: if Israel ever found itself in such a situation, where it had no friends and no allies in the entire world, totally isolated and facing increasingly bellicose, confident and well-armed states, and with genocide as a living memory, she might well decide to go for broke against her enemies and even potential enemies in the Middle East.

    What’s interesting about your response – and similar responses with actions far lower down the scale – is the sort of hurrumphing confidence that Israel would never react that way. It’s actually rather a compliment to them. At the same time it is the opposite of what the Left constantly tell the West; that we have to tread very, very carefully with the Muslim world, with countries like Iran, lest we upset them, offend them, frighten them or through other means cause them to ‘react’ in dangerous ways.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  184. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    RightNow, if you set up a situation where you are the only side with soldiers and guns and you are forced to use them to kill ciivilians in international waters you have lost your moral compass and you have lost it in the eyes of the world.

    It’s really that simple.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  185. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    The Israelis were utter bloody fools in not allowing that flotilla through and they could end up facing a Turkish/Syrian alliance.
    ………….
    Turkey has been playing a key role in talking down the loons in Iran, and brokered the deal in which Iran agreed to deposit most of its stock of low-enriched uranium with Turkey in exchange for a supply of reactor fuel. Not perfect, but way better than anyone else has been able to achieve.

    Wonderful how Turkey keeps getting portrayed here as an honest broker rather than just another nation state pursuing it’s interests.

    Its interests 20 or more years ago lay with keeping the USSR and friends at bay, continuing to Westernise and democratise in the hope of joining Europe, and bringing with that a disdain for the seemingly hopeless and powerless Arabs and Persians it had once ruled.

    As a result it was more than happy to be part of NATO, be bestest friends with the USA and thereby get on well with the US’s main Middle East ally, Israel – which also happened to be a Westernised, democratic, economically developing country that appeared to be a beacon for modernising Turks.

    In 2010 of course communism is dead, Russia is just another power – with resources and technology to boot, Europe has repeatedly stiffed the Turks and has serious questionmarks over it’s future now anyway. The US appears to be ignoring Europe and as a result NATO is increasingly a moribund joke. So being best friends with the US is no longer quite so important – and neither is being friends with her key allies.

    By contrast Iran, aided by China and Russia, is flexing its muscles via Syria, Lebanon and non-state actors such as Hamas and Herzbollah, and appears to be heading towards a nuclear bomb – all while the West mewls and calls for more sanctions.

    Given all that, Turkey would be very smart to cover its butt and cozy up to the reality – and if that means stiffing Israel, so what? There will be no downside for Turkey here.

    But of course the cream on top is the fact that the PM of Turkey and his party are also pushing an Islamist agenda as fast as is practicable in the nation that Ataturk built. Sure it’s still a distance from the likes of other Muslim nations – but it’s farther from being what it was, where even ordinary Turks spoke out against ‘nutty’ Islamists. They’ve grown quieter in recent years and will be almost silent now. How much longer before they’ll simply shrug their shoulders and move with the times.

    And of course, in keeping with this thread, Israel will be blamed for having ‘provoked’ or exacerbated that situtaton.

    The idea that the Turkish PM and co. might be active participants in this affair, that they might be acting from a wellspring of rational, internal motivations of traditional political power plays anmd dirty tricks, rather than simply being lab rats who react only to the actions of the West and Israel, is not one that gets much attention. When it does, the critique is still wrapped in the phraseology of well, yes, yes – but we made things worse…...

    Kristoff’s phrases echo: by nature a provocateur …….potentially feeding religious bigotry….. working on antagonizing even more people

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  186. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    and i guess this dosen’t help…

    http://whoar.co.nz/2010/israel-stations-nuclear-missile-subs-off-iran/

    “…Three German-built Israeli submarines equipped with nuclear cruise missiles are to be deployed in the Gulf near the Iranian coastline.

    The first has been sent in response to Israeli fears that ballistic missiles developed by Iran, Syria and Hezbollah, a political and military organisation in Lebanon, could hit sites in Israel, including air bases and missile launchers.

    The submarines of Flotilla 7 — Dolphin, Tekuma and Leviathan — have visited the Gulf before.

    But the decision has now been taken to ensure a permanent presence of at least one of the vessels.

    The flotilla’s commander, identified only as “Colonel O”, told an Israeli newspaper: …

    …“We are an underwater assault force.

    We’re operating deep and far, very far, from our borders.”

    Each of the submarines has a crew of 35 to 50, commanded by a colonel capable of launching a nuclear cruise missile.

    The vessels can remain at sea for about 50 days and stay submerged up to 1,150ft below the surface for at least a week.

    Some of the cruise missiles are equipped with the most advanced nuclear warheads in the Israeli arsenal.

    The deployment is designed to act as a deterrent, gather intelligence and potentially to land Mossad agents.

    “We’re a solid base for collecting sensitive information, as we can stay for a long time in one place,” said a flotilla officer.

    The submarines could be used if Iran continues its programme to produce a nuclear bomb.

    “The 1,500km range of the submarines’ cruise missiles can reach any target in Iran,” said a navy officer.

    Apparently responding to the Israeli activity, an Iranian admiral said:…

    .. “Anyone who wishes to do an evil act in the Persian Gulf will receive a forceful response from us.”

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  187. dime (10,135 comments) says:

    bummer it was only 10!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  188. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    d’yareckon they had to go in at night..rapelling down from helicopters..

    ..’cos..if they had stopped the boats in daylight…

    ..might they have thrown their bits of wood at them…?

    ..and maybe ‘hurt’ them….?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  189. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    Alan,

    “if you set up a situation” – if you mean the blockade then that situation exists so Israel can vet what gets into Gaza, particularly to stop more powerful missiles getting into the hands of Hamas. If you mean the situation where the flotilla refused to be inspected then it was not Israel setting up that situation

    “where you are the only side with soldiers and guns” – if heavier firepower gets into the hands of Hamas please explain how this will result in reduced bloodshed

    ” and you are forced to use them to kill ciivilians” – these ‘civilians’ attacked the boarding IDF and took at least two sidearms off them, so yes Israel was forced to use guns, after attempts via non-lethal methods (paint-ball guns) had been thwarted. It may surprise you but on one side of this confrontation are fighters who consider it the epitome of honour to die as martyrs. For them the ends justifies the means, in this case international condemnation of Israel. Please stop enabling them.

    ” in international waters” – they tried to run a blockade. As has been previously pointed out: “The blockade is legal and uses the exact same criteria as recognised by the UK and the US (amongst others). It fully complies with all the international law on this matter.”

    “you have lost your moral compass and you have lost it in the eyes of the world” – this may be a matter of personal belief. Mine is that when the other side of the tiff has the goal of wiping your entire race from the face of the earth, you have the moral high ground.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  190. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Russell Brown (267) Says:
    June 1st, 2010 at 4:45 pm

    you forget shalid galit

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  191. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    krazykiwi (5374) Says:
    June 1st, 2010 at 2:23 pm

    on the button.
    but don’t forget the sunday people after the saturday people.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  192. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    In retrospect perhaps I am taking the wrong view. Perhaps Israel would be better off letting heavier firepower into the hands of Hamas and Hezbollah. At least then the deniers can no longer use the ‘disproportionate’ argument and Israel and Palestine can just have a full on war and sort the whole thing out once and for all.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  193. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Alan Wilkinson (802) Says:
    June 1st, 2010 at 5:24 pm
    RightNow, if you set up a situation where you are the only side with soldiers and guns and you are forced to use them to kill ciivilians in international waters you have lost your moral compass and you have lost it in the eyes of the world.

    As you have edited out so much of the narrative and background to just make a soundbite for fools, it is you who have lost your moral compass.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  194. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    itiswhatitis – your propaganda is wasted on people who think for themselves

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  195. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Paul
    For Israel to abandon this mindset, Hamas, Hizbollah and their allies will have to make significant and honest efforts to recognise Israel’s right to exist, then negotiate from there. Israel will not change its attitude until that happens (nor, will they argue, should they).

    When do you think the UN EU and USA are going to insist on this from the Arab world?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  196. itiswhatitis (35 comments) says:

    Hey right now, my propoganda was coverage live from AlJ NEWS, but, when the news is against your liking you call it propoganda.
    Admit your here to influence the real story, just the same as the Western mewdia is working overtime on right now.
    Label yourself a Isreali shill.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  197. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    It wouldn’t surprise me if part of this was to make out Israel isn’t safe with Nuclear weapons so that she can be pressured to come to a nuclear free middle east table.

    Next time she should fire one shot across the bows and then sink them all.

    I do think of the Russians and what they did with a commercial airliner that “strayed” into their airspace, what happened to her for it? have any more strayed?
    Here we have people deliberately running a blockade put in place to protect the Israeli citizenary and because an israeli citizen was captured and kidnapped from within Israel.

    Fuck on thinking on that why don’t we just make the 200 mls outward from around Israel glass?
    after all it is all sand isn’t it. Now that would stop the infiltration.

    or

    Lets give them all of the original League of Nations 1922 palestinian mandate incl all of Transjordan.
    Kick out all the arabs and Muslims to the other 87% of the Middle east and let the israelis make that bloom as they have Israel.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  198. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    grumpyoldhori (1166) Says:
    June 1st, 2010 at 5:00 pm

    Tom Hunter, Israel will use their nukes against say France or the UK if they are boycotted, in your dreams.
    *******************************

    As always its needed to point out that there will be no war, At. All. Because Israel has nuclear weapons, both land and sea based, by definition Israel cannot be beaten by force of arms, and every one in the region knows it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  199. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    Al Jizzera news that happened to have a reporter on board huh? Pardon me if I don’t buy into their impartiality. Label yourself a useful idiot.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  200. kiwi in america (2,511 comments) says:

    The ship at the centre of this incident was the last of a flotilla of six ‘peace’ships. The IDF stopped the previous 5 who all agreed to be boarded peacefully and allowed Israeli naval personnel to guide the ships to an Israeli port to have their cargo examined in case the ships were a cover to land weapons in Gaza. Given that Iranian submarines have been seen unloading cargo off the coast of Lebanon; given that Netanyahu showed Obama satellite proof of the Syrians delivering Iranian Scud missiles to Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon and finally given the fact that the launching of almost 8,000 rockets from Gaza into civilian areas of Israel (which sparked the last war in Gaza), one can appreciate the need for Israel to enforce a blockade.

    If this mission was peaceful then there would be nothing to hide. If the Turkish vessel had food on board as is alleged then it could dock and offload at an Egyptian port and deliver the food overland via the Egyptian manned check points set up to check for arms. Plenty of food gets to Gaza this way.

    This was a set up from the get go. Hamas and their peacenik sympathisers, aided and abetted by an increasingly Islamist Turkish Government, set up this raid to create maximum PR discomfort for Israel. By instructing its ‘peace’ crew to resist violently it guaranteed a violent response from Israel which in turn leads to the MSM and elite opinion the world over to condemn Israel for its disproportionate response.

    Hamas could end all this trouble, its blockades, its isolation and poverty and its being under the military thumb of Israel. Its so simple – just recognise the right of Israel to exist. That is all Israel wants – in exchange for a genuine and enforceable commitment like that from Hezbollah, Fatah and Hamas, Israel would give up pretty much the whole West Bank. The Palestinians want all of Israel or nothing and there is no end that they will not stoop to to get what they want. Hamas and Hezbollah still want to destroy Israel and state so in their charters and re-iterated by their leaders like Nazrallah. Of course both are armed and funded by Iran whose leader also seeks a new holocaust.

    Israel, knowing its immediate neighbours seek its eventually annihilation, takes whatever steps are necessary to preserve their state including the lawful right of blockade. Israel will weather this storm and continue to guard against the illegal shipment of arms and weapons to its enemies.

    Iran knows what is coming – it knows the UN and the US are powerless to stop its nuclear programme and that sanctions will be meaningless, circumventable, weak and too late. Only Israel has the might and motive to pre-emptively strike Iran’s capability. Iran is trying to build a pre pre-emptive strike capacity and surround Israel with simultaneous military incursions and rocket attacks from Gaza, the West Bank and Southern Lebanon. The major powers stood back and did not stop the German holocaust – Israel’s leaders all pledge to their people the same commitment: NEVER AGAIN. Never again means a multi front continuous war footing and hyper vigilance even if a ship looks like it is coming for peaceful purposes.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  201. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “Israel and Palestine can just have a full on war and sort the whole thing out once and for all”

    How many wars do you need to show that they never sort the whole thing out once and for all?

    “As you have edited out so much of the narrative and background to just make a soundbite for fools, it is you who have lost your moral compass.”

    Nope. I described accurately what Israel did and its consequences. You want to excuse it on the basis of reason and need. The flotilla members also argue their reason and need. The world looks past both to what was actually done and by whom and makes its judgement on that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  202. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “Israel cannot be beaten by force of arms, and every one in the region knows it.”

    Yet. The clock is ticking.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  203. jcuknz (704 comments) says:

    This is a sure fire way of getting traffic on your site David :-)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  204. Andrew W (1,629 comments) says:

    I’m wondering if there is any action that Israel could take that wouldn’t be applauded by her apologists on this site? Many of them I’m sure would argue it was justified if She nuked Tehran, or set up Palestinian concentration camps (Gaza is merely an open prison after all).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  205. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    jcuknz

    Have you seen the news tonight? 5 of the 6 ships were boarded with no issues. The 6th ship had nearly 600 people on board and as soon as the Israeli army boarded they were beaten with iron bars, attacked with knifes and shot at.

    The Israeli’s weren’t expecting trouble and so many were only armed with paint ball guns.

    The activists (not aid workers) on that 6th board were always planning to start a fight.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  206. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Everyone making out that the relationship with Turkey will now sour is full of shit. It has been sour since the Islamist party took power a couple of years ago and ever since then the Turkish govt has gone against 40 years of pragmatism and has instead been undermining Israel and stoking up antt-Israeli feeling.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  207. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    The Kurdish Workers Party attacked a Turkey navy base this week.

    Any left wing media coverage of the Turkish reaction? I bet Turkey will be loving the distraction and rolling tanks towards Kurdistan at the moment.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  208. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “The activists (not aid workers) on that 6th board were always planning to start a fight.”

    Then how come they didn’t have guns?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  209. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    It has been reported they did. Did you not read what I wrote above?

    Why does an aid ship need 600 people on board?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  210. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    tom hunter you are putting a good argument forward for both Iran and Turkey to build nukes.
    Nope, what will happen is that Israel will start to lose trading partners, then the sanctions over being a apartheid state will start to bite.
    Israel has a choice, become a democracy or stay on the path of becoming a theocracy if it does not get out of the West Bank.

    One thing Israel has noticed, young Jews in USA unless they are very religious do not give a toss about Israel.
    So how much longer will Israel have the USAs backing ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  211. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    SR
    So that some of the most highly trained commandos in the world can rappel aboard at night from helicopters using paintball guns as their primary weapon.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  212. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    @Alan Wilkinson “Then how come they didn’t have guns?”

    have you seen the video Alan?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Hu5UfW3rA8&feature=related

    do you thnk they needed guns when they outnumbered the IDF by about 60-1?

    do they look like they were there for a peaceful protest?, c’mon be honest

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  213. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Yeah Grumpy and pigs will fly.
    How many patents and nobel prizes per head of population

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  214. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    AW
    Then how come they didn’t have guns?

    how do we know they didn’t?
    The manifests and stores haven’t been checked yet have they?
    Of course it was all planted what evers found.

    Again soundbites for fools.
    Are you really Valerie Morse?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  215. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    Southern Raider armed with AK47s and PKMs were they ?
    Funny that I noticed no green tracer going up to greet the helicopters.
    You may just want to question some of those Israel right or wrong sites you are going to.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  216. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    @Southern Raider 7:27 pm

    The activists (not aid workers) on that 6th board were always planning to start a fight.

    Surely, the people who illegally and with no colour of right board a ship in international waters are the ones who “start a fight”.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  217. reid (16,638 comments) says:

    For the most intelligent nation in the world, Israel sure does make a lot of fundamental geopolitical miscalculations, or does [its leaders]?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  218. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “Are you really Valerie Morse?” I have given my name. You haven’t.

    “how do we know they didn’t?” Because the Israelis would certainly have said so.

    “Again soundbites for fools.” Speak for yourself.

    Patrick – “do they look like they were there for a peaceful protest?” I’m sure there were hotheads ripe for confrontation. I would be amazed if Israeli intelligence wasn’t aware of that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  219. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    @Toad
    “Surely, the people who illegally and with no colour of right board a ship in international waters are the ones who “start a fight”.”

    Peter Bethune?

    (and just imagine how extra pissed off you’d be if the japs had greeted him by beating him with pick handles, and stabbing him?)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  220. Hurf Durf (2,860 comments) says:

    The Ruskies apprehended some Somali pirates the other week, you know, innocent, maligned, poverty-stricken victims of Western imperialism. They stuck them on a rowboat, sent them off and disappeared them into the seas of the Horn of Africa. Obviously, there was the sort of rage and disgust a major power should be allowed to commit such senseless murder, wasn’t there?

    Oh wait.

    At least they didn’t do it in those fabled international waters I hear so much about.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  221. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Best thing Israel could do tomorrow is what they offered in the first place. Unload the boats, inspect the cargo and start trucking the items to Gaza.

    Then they can say if you had followed our instructions in the first place you would have got the same outcome, but without the agro.

    By the way what was the CTU being asked for comment for? Do they now represent factory workers in Gaza.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  222. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    reid
    it looks that way doesn’t it?

    But then to not look that way, they’d have to give up and die.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  223. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    @Patrick Starr 8:06 pm

    Peter Bethune engaged in an act of non-violent civil disobedience, knowing full well the potential consequences, and being prepared to accept them. I don’t recall hearing anything about Peter Bethune murdering 9 Japanese whalers.

    Bad analogy, Patrick – I would have expected better from you. It is those commenting here who condemned Peter Bethune but are now trying to justify the Israeli Defence Force pirates’ actions who need to consider the consistency of their arguments.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  224. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    @ Allan – yeah I agree – of course the IDF must have known. Heres what the ‘peaceful protesteors’ on board the flotilla were chanting on their departure

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk&feature=player_embedded

    “chanted Islamic battle cry invoking killing of Jews.The name Khaibar mentioned in battle cry was the last Jewish village defeated by Muhammad’s army in 628. The battle marked the end of Jewish presence in Arabia”

    and of course its normal to take dozens of pickhandles on ship…..isnt it?…and despite that the IDF took paintguns.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  225. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    @Southern Raider 8:20 pm

    Best thing Israel could do tomorrow is what they offered in the first place. Unload the boats, inspect the cargo and start trucking the items to Gaza.

    But don’t you understand the point of the blockade? Its entire purpose is to starve the people in Gaza into submission. So why would Israel truck the cargo to Gaza? That would defeat their purpose. Which is why those on the flotilla didn’t trust the Israeli “offer” (guess we should now read “ultimatum”) to dock the ships in an Israeli port and allow the Israelis to convey the cargo to Gaza in the first place.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  226. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    “Peter Bethune engaged in an act of non-violent civil disobedience”

    try again Toad

    Bethune admits “He would never have launched acid bottles on to whaling ships had he known they could cause injury”
    What the fuck do you think happens when you thow acid into someones face? the difference here being the Israeli have colour of right knowing that terrorists (like those boarded) smuggle arms in Gaza that murder their women and children. on the other hand Bethune thew acid at, then rammed an innocent ship. (Suppose youre right. theres no comparison really)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  227. Inky_the_Red (761 comments) says:

    I understand that the generous Israeli government let a quarter of the aid required into the Gaza. Very nice that the semitic Palestinian people of Gaza are only 3/4 being starved to death.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  228. big bruv (14,165 comments) says:

    “Its entire purpose is to starve the people in Gaza into submission”

    Seems like a perfectly good idea to me, if you have a group of people who are determined to destroy you I would have thought that a blockade is the least violent way you could go about it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  229. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    “But don’t you understand the point of the blockade? Its entire purpose is to starve the people in Gaza into submission. ”

    Submission to what? To agree to stop wanting to wipe Israel off the face the earth. Naughty Israelites, you should just let them kill you and settle this once and for all.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  230. aardvark (417 comments) says:

    “Israel cannot be beaten by force of arms, and every one in the region knows it.”

    Isn’t that what they said about the USA in Vietnam?

    I’m not antisemitic, I have nothing against the Jewish people. However, I do think the Israeli government are both incredibly stupid and no better than those who they seek to protect themselves from.

    Remember — this is a government that engages in international crime to achieve its ends. The Mossad engages in state-sanctioned murders where it feels it is justified and they have also engaged in passport fraud against NZ and Australia.

    So what’s a little midnight shootup on the deck of a freighter?

    Just another day in the life of a thick-as-shirt Israeli government.

    As for the Palestinians and Hamas… don’t get me started on these toads. Just because I think the Israeli government are a detestable bunch of arseholes doesn’t mean I hold any favour for *any* group that would treat human life as a currency of politics.

    The leaders of all these peoples are a bunch of unprincipled, unethical immoral sods who should be locked a room and left to fight it out amongst themselves.

    There’s no point in trying to defend any of the actions any of them are taking, it’s all BS.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  231. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Toad no one in Gaza is starving. That is left wing bullshit.

    How come the left fail to point out Egypt maintains the blockade as well and has been very quite in all this.

    The left wing media fails to pick up the good things Israel does like emergency surgery on a girl who was dying from a heart condition. Israel agreed with Jordan for the girl to be transported out of Gaza to a Jordanian hospital (yes there goes those dirty Israeli’s maintaining the blockade at all costs). When it became clear the girl wasn’t gtoing to make it to Jordan she was flown by Israeli army helicopter to an Israeli hospital and is now alive and well.

    Who got thanked by the girls father? Hamas and Jordan

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  232. Jeff83 (745 comments) says:

    Fuck BB, you outdo your fucking self. I would argue with you but what I would put up as adhorrent, you find perfectly justafiable in fact right.

    Funny thing is, if your replica was born in Palestine (Gaza) you would be the very terrorists you denounce with views as warped as that.

    Anyhow in words better than mine (Gordon Campbell)

    The Israeli attack on the Turkish aid convoy to Gaza, and its subsequent slaughter of the civilians on board is being condemned around the world. That the commando raid was mounted in order to prevent the delivery of medical aid, building supplies and other humanitarian assistance to the inhabitants of Gaza is particularly repulsive. The Israeli blockade in the wake of its late 2008/early 2009 military offensive has caused the Gazan economy to collapse – leaving some 70% of Gazans to subsist, as the Guardian reports, on less than $1 a day, with 75% now reliant on food aid and 60% having no daily access to water.

    Some 10% of the population – many of them children – are estimated by the World Health Organisation to have been stunted by malnutrition. The Gaza blockade was denounced in December 2009 in this article written by a budding UK politician called Nick Clegg, whose response to this latest outrage will be keenly awaited.

    There can be no doubt that the aid flotilla’s attempts to break the blockade were justified, on humanitarian grounds. The justification offered for the blockade by the Israelis has been the rocket attacks emanating from Gaza – these rockets have, by the best estimate I can find, have killed about 20 people inside Israel since 2001, at a rate of just over 2 a year. These indiscriminate rocket attacks on civilians were roundly condemned by the Goldstone Report to the UN last year.

    However, the Israeli response has not only been disproportionate – over 1100 Palestinians were killed in its Gaza military offensive, a third of them children – but the subsequent use of collective punishment against the Gaza population, as the Goldstone Report also said, could well be held by a competent court to constitute a crime against humanity.

    The attack on the aid flotilla is consistent with such brutality. The use of live ammunition by Israeli commandos against people armed at best, with iron bars – to an extent where 19 people have been killed – is also disproportionate. So far, the New Zealand response has been to condemn the use of violence and especially to decry the loss of life in the incident.

    “I am taking immediate steps to communicate the government’s concerns over this incident to the government of Israel,… We support the calls made by other countries for a full investigation into the incident.” Foreign Minister McCully has said.

    All well and good. In the circumstances though, it would also be appropriate for New Zealand to call on Israel to lift the Gaza blockade. If the siege can now be lifted, the loss of life among the aid flotilla might not have been entirely in vain. Anything less than condemning the blockade would seem to make us complicit by our silence, in the collective punishment of the people of Gaza.

    The situation was set out by Justice Goldstone in the covering letter to his report to the UN last year :

    The Mission decided that in order to understand the effect of the Israeli military operations on the infrastructure and economy of Gaza, and especially its food supplies, it was necessary to have regard to the effects of the blockade that Israel has imposed on the Gaza Strip for some years and has been tightened since Hamas became the controlling authority of Gaza.

    The Mission found that the attack on the only remaining flour producing factory, the destruction of a large part of the Gaza egg production, the bulldozing of huge tracts of agricultural land, and the bombing of some two hundred industrial facilities, could not on any basis be justified on military grounds. Those attacks had nothing whatever to do with the firing of rockets and mortars at Israel.

    The Mission looked closely and sets out in the Report statements made by Israeli political and military leaders in which they stated in clear terms that they would hit at the “Hamas infrastructure”.

    If “infrastructure” were to be understood in that way and become a justifiable military objective, it would completely subvert the whole purpose of IHL built up over the last 100 years and more. It would make civilians and civilian buildings justifiable targets.

    These attacks amounted to reprisals and collective punishment and constitute war crimes.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  233. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    Alan Wilkinson (806) Says:
    June 1st, 2010 at 7:20 pm
    “Israel cannot be beaten by force of arms, and every one in the region knows it.”

    Yet. The clock is ticking.
    ******************************

    No. So long as Israel has enough nukes, and the capacity to build more, no matter what other nations, Iran for example, do they will not be beaten. Its the Mutual Assured Destruction line of thinking: Israel can not be beaten but they can be obliterated..but all of their opponents meet the same fate as well because if one flies they will all fly, and they all know it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  234. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    So a lefty like Gordon Campbell prints some bullshit about a “slaughter” and that sums it up for you? What a dick head.

    Where is the evidence of a slaughter and the Israeli navy opening fire at will. All the videos show the navy being attacked. What moon beam station are you watching?

    For the last week the Israeli Govt has been saying they expected a peaceful takeover of the ships and that everyone would be safe. They planned for this and it was the “aid workers” that seemed to have different plans.

    Also funny how the kiwi woman has the nice family photo shot, but in a video for the group she represents she is wearing a full burqa. Converted to Islam perhaps and not such an innocent “aid worker”?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  235. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Jeff83 if Big Bruv was born in Gaza then he would have about 16 brothers and sisters.

    If they want more food they should stop breeding like rabbits

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  236. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    Now I don’t profess to speak for BB, nor am I the least bit interested in what Gordon (Brown) Cowbell has to say, but I think your statement is BS jeff83:

    “Funny thing is, if your replica was born in Palestine (Gaza) you would be the very terrorists you denounce with views as warped as that.”

    See I think that BB would say “wait, why is it we want to kill those Jews again? This is silly, why don’t we just both live here?”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  237. aardvark (417 comments) says:

    “No. So long as Israel has enough nukes, and the capacity to build more, no matter what other nations, Iran for example, do they will not be beaten”

    That a nation which shows such contempt for international law and human life should be allowed to possess an arsenal capable of such destruction (much of which would occur *outside* the target zone due to the nature of nuclear blasts and fallout) is abhorrent.

    The only reason we’ve had peace between Russia and the USA is because of the “mutually assured destruction” that occurs when *both* sides are armed with nukes.

    Right now, none of Israel’s (many and growing in number) enemies have nukes so there’s always going to be the temptation for them to take pre-emptive nuclear action under the premise of “self defense”.

    I mean if they can claim that their commandos were acting in “self defense” when they boarded that ship in international waters in the dark of night, what’s one more little act of (nuclear-enabled) self defense?

    Now if Israel and its enemies were duking it out in a sealed room that would be fine — but what about the effect that a nuclear conflict would have on the rest of the Northern Hemisphere?

    It’s a shame that the UN is such a guttless wonder. The only hope of avoiding a nuclear confrontation (IMHO) is to take Israel’s nukes away and give them half of the state of Utah in the USA.

    Since the yanks are so pro-Israeli there should be no problems there. And, since Utah is already filled with religious zealots, the Israelis will feel right at home. That way the Arabs can have Israel and the whole conflict would be defused.

    What’s that USA?

    NIMBY?

    Who’d have thought?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  238. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    @Patrick Starr 8:29 pm

    Bethune admits “He would never have launched acid bottles on to whaling ships had he known they could cause injury” What the fuck do you think happens when you thow acid into someones face?

    The stuff was butyric acid, Patrick:

    Butyric acid is found in butter, parmesan cheese, vomit, and as a product of anaerobic fermentation (including in the colon and as body odor). It has an unpleasant smell and acrid taste, with a sweetish aftertaste (similar to ether).

    Check it out. In higher concentrations smells like puke, but isn’t going to harm anyone (unless they themselves puke in reaction to the smell and choke on it, I suppose).

    Learn some chemistry before you go down that path, Patrick. All of biochemistry is based on acids called amino acids. There are actually very few acids that have the corrosive properties of nitric or hydrochloric acid.

    Oh, and as for the vomit reference above, it is the hydrochloric acid in vomit that stuffs the teeth of bulimics, not the butyric acid.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  239. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    Do you think nuclear war in the middle east would have a positive or negative forcing on the climate? Perhaps it will solve a few problems. Let’s ship some heavy arms to Hamas and find out.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  240. aardvark (417 comments) says:

    What about the obligatory: “Nuke em all and let God sort it out”?

    Food for thought?

    Come on America, we know you could do it :-)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  241. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    Stuart, their enemies stretch from the Atlantic to the Pacific and have only a small target to obliterate. I haven’t noticed fear of death deterring them anyway.

    The clock IS ticking.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  242. reid (16,638 comments) says:

    “reid it looks that way doesn’t it? But then to not look that way, they’d have to give up and die.”

    No Mike. They could both fully protect themselves and also avoid all of these issues, quite easily.

    Their leaders commit folly after folly after folly, for no result other than to inflame the situation. They’ve done it really badly three times in the last five years, each of which sears itself into the collective consciousness and puts Israel further on the back foot which, despite what some here apparently believe from past comments, I don’t celebrate at all.

    Lebanon – epic fail – destroyed the invincible reputation of the IDF.

    Gaza – epic fail – made the IDF appear like ruthless bullies in the way they went about it.

    This – epic fail – consequences TBC.

    Why could Israel’s best-in-class military planners not have foreseen that an aid convoy from Turkey (i.e. a Muslim nation) would not have displayed the actions it displayed, if the IDF hard-men were deployed as they were?

    That’s what planning and risk-management is about FFS and if you do that in corporates you do it a hundred-fold in military planning because of the stakes.

    Didn’t they know there were hundreds of civilians on board. Didn’t they know that all of those civilians were there for a reason. Didn’t that give them a clue as to what their likely reaction would be? etc.

    Epic fucking fail, period. And guess who suffers?

    The Jewish people, that’s who. Poorly served, and have been for a long time. And that’s putting it extremely mildly. Those are who should be put on the block – Netanyahu, etc. But what’s the point. Another one is waiting in the wings for exactly this contingency.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  243. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    Butyric acid is a close relative of acetic acid (vinegar) but slightly less acidic. Unpleasant but certainly not lethal.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  244. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    aardvark (392) Says:
    June 1st, 2010 at 8:35 pm
    “Israel cannot be beaten by force of arms, and every one in the region knows it.”

    Isn’t that what they said about the USA in Vietnam?
    *********************

    Interesting you should bring that one up, because there are certain strategic similarities. You will notice that since 1973 no nation has tried to attack Israel directly, this is because they have nukes and the risks are simply far too great, for if Israel were to start to loose the conventional battle those weapons would, without fail, be used and the Arab nations then loose. So what do they do if they feel the need to fight Israel?..they use proxies, like Hamas, PLO etc which, for the purposes of warfare, are little more than a PR campaign with RPG’s.
    Same line of thinking with Vietnam, the threat of nuclear weapons limited the scope of warfare: the US could not do as conventional warfare suggests they do, and go after the source of the Vietnamese support,or expand the scope of the war to win the war as they would have done during WW2, because that would inevitably involve directly targeting the the USSR and mass nuclear obliteration would then wipe out the northern hemisphere.

    So no, Israel cannot be beaten by force of arms, none of the Arab nations will risk complete destruction as nations for the sake of the Palestinians.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  245. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    Stuart Mackey nope you are wrong, all the major nuclear powers have the ability to take out all of Israel’s nukes in a first strike as long as they get the nuclear armed submarine first.

    Now here is the interesting question, will Israel hit Iran with nukes and if they do which major power will take all of Israel out with nukes.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  246. V (750 comments) says:

    Whenever these Israeli/Palestine issues come up it makes me realise how inevitable another war is. Just look at the hatred between fellow NZers on this thread let alone the rest of the world where there are greater issues to create hostilities.

    Many of these people have never met or rationally sat to talk about the issue. I also wonder about the howls of outrage were our towns and cities subject to regular but random rocket attacks from relatively close proximity. Regardless of the politics of this issue you cannot expect there to be an honest negotiation while violence and counter-violence is the means of discussion.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  247. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    Alan Wilkinson (808) Says:
    June 1st, 2010 at 8:51 pm
    Stuart, their enemies stretch from the Atlantic to the Pacific and have only a small target to obliterate. I haven’t noticed fear of death deterring them anyway.

    The clock IS ticking.
    *************************************

    Don’t be silly, no one is going to risk national obliteration over Palestinians or Israel, and that is what war with Israel means, indeed that is what having nuclear weapons means and why the cold war never went hot.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  248. Waymad (136 comments) says:

    Of course, chaps and chapesses, one could always reference some grown-up comment on the whole mess….

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  249. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    Stuart, what makes you so certain it will be a nation that does it? The chances seem much greater that it will be a Bin-Laden type outfit with little to lose, or target.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  250. aardvark (417 comments) says:

    V, the problem is that people make simplistic connections:

    Israel = Israeli government = the Jewish people

    That’s like saying Tame Iti speaks for all NZ Maori — clearly incorrect.

    Same goes on the other side of the fence.

    I’m sure there are a lot of Israelis who are as pissed off about this latest fiasco — but we hear little about them and their point of view.

    The reality is that man is a primitive beast, barely out of loincloth and animal skins.

    We’ll never be able to live in peace with each other until we grow up enough to drop the whole infatuation with religion.

    How many people have been killed in the name of a God who is supposed to be loving and caring and who expressly forbids killing?

    This is the 21st century — isn’t it time we ditched this superstitious carry-on and simply woke up to the fact that religion is destroying our ability to coexist peacefully with our neighbours?

    The next *BIG* war will be Islam versus the rest of the world (including Christians). This will be another religious war and millions will die in the name of an all-loving, all caring God.

    If this proves anything, it’s simply that we’re still a race of primitives who can’t bear the thought that we might actually have to take responsibility for our own actions in this huge universe and that there really isn’t anyone who’ll protect us from the dark of night.

    It’s time the human race grew up!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  251. reid (16,638 comments) says:

    “Now here is the interesting question, will Israel hit Iran with nukes and if they do which major power will take all of Israel out with nukes.”

    Well Hori as I’ve already said a few times here, Georgia was about Russia preventing Israel from getting overflight bases so it could attack Iran without going over Iraq.

    Which the US was helping Israel do.

    So apparently the US and Israel are on the same page re their perception re Iran but apparently, Russia disagrees. I think yo’ll find some fairly close Sino-Iran connections as well.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  252. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    @Stuart Mackey 8:37 pm

    The oppression of Palestinians by the State of Israel will not be beaten by force of arms.

    It will be beaten by a combination of internal dissent and international condemnation – just as was the oppression of the Soviet Union and that of apartheid South Africa.

    The Israeli Defence Force’s act of piracy in international waters could well be a trigger for that, but it may be many years in coming to fruition, just as was the eventual liberation of South Africa from apartheid following the trigger created by the 1976 Soweto uprising.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  253. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Quote from Kimble over at the Bethune thread .. for toad’s benefit:

    What are the odds that the people claiming that throwing a mild acid at someone does not constitute assault are the same ones claiming that smacking a childs bottom is practically GBH?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  254. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    grumpyoldhori (1169) Says:
    June 1st, 2010 at 8:54 pm
    Stuart Mackey nope you are wrong, all the major nuclear powers have the ability to take out all of Israel’s nukes in a first strike as long as they get the nuclear armed submarine first.

    Now here is the interesting question, will Israel hit Iran with nukes and if they do which major power will take all of Israel out with nukes.
    *******************

    The USA/France/UK will do no such thing. Do you seriously think that any of the other nuclear armed states will risk obliteration at the hands of the USA by nuking Israel? That is the calculation they will all make, and they will always err on the side of caution, every single one of them, and thus Israel will not be attacked.

    Incidentally, a submarine at sea, by definition cannot be taken out by a nuclear first strike, if it is sunk by conventional means, that will trigger nuclear release because a nuclear armed nation cannot risk its deterrent being destroyed, nukes are a use it or loose it option.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  255. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    aardvaak, given that Israel’s present course is heading for certain disaster I find it hard to go past Gadaffi’s single State solution – just as apartheid was resolved. I can see no alternative.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  256. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    Stuart – not arguing with your analysis but please could you use lose instead of loose? Loose is the opposite of tight (adj) or as a verb “to let loose”. Perhaps to let loose a nuke…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  257. aardvark (417 comments) says:

    Alan, so long as religion is an issue, there could never be a single-state solution. Just like oil and water, the two will never mix.

    The biggest threat to world peace is not Israel, the Arabs, Russian or the USA. It is the mythical being we have created in our own minds and refer to as “God” (Jehova, Allah or whoever).

    Get rid of God and then all you have to deal with are issues over territory. Although it may be difficult, *those* issues can be resolved.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  258. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    Alan Wilkinson (809) Says:
    June 1st, 2010 at 9:04 pm
    Stuart, what makes you so certain it will be a nation that does it? The chances seem much greater that it will be a Bin-Laden type outfit with little to lose, or target.
    ***********************************

    If you refer too nuclear terrorism? well if you were a nation with nuclear weapons and your enemy could tell where a nuclear device came from after initiation on their soil, would you not then calculate that that nuclear armed enemy may decide that it was the first step in a full scale attack, and would then respond with a full scale nuclear strike? Would you keep your nukes under the tightest security you could possibly provide?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  259. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    RightNow (835) Says:
    June 1st, 2010 at 9:18 pm
    Stuart – not arguing with your analysis but please could you use lose instead of loose? Loose is the opposite of tight (adj) or as a verb “to let loose”. Perhaps to let loose a nuke…
    ******************

    Ahh, yes. My apologies for piss poor grammar.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  260. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Bullshit Aardvark its just Allah. When was the last time a Jew tried to convert you?

    Toad the simple solution is
    – Hamas and all their like conies announce publically they are happy for Israel to be a country in the Middle East
    – Palestinian Authority agree to Jerusalem being controlled by Israel
    – Palestinian Authority agree to the current borders

    Nice and simple

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  261. reid (16,638 comments) says:

    “The biggest threat to world peace is not Israel, the Arabs, Russian or the USA. It is the mythical being we have created in our own minds and refer to as “God” (Jehova, Allah or whoever).”

    aardvaark, that’s so funny it’s almost pathetic.

    Do you really think YHWH, Allah or whatever you want to call G-d, actually created this particular situation or is even a casual factor?

    Suggest you go back to Psych 101 and finish the course. Learn how people work. Only then are you really well positioned to study more advanced issues. Repeat: only then.

    BTW, allowing it to happen is different from causing it to happen. And if He didn’t allow it, what are the implications to all of us. No more free will? What would that mean?

    Back to Israel.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  262. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    I disagree, aardvark. Even religions can be civilised and the fanatics isolated. It is certainly necessary.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  263. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    toad (2234) Says:
    June 1st, 2010 at 9:06 pm
    @Stuart Mackey 8:37 pm

    The oppression of Palestinians by the State of Israel will not be beaten by force of arms.
    ****************************

    You may be right, or wrong, time will tell. I have made this comment because when ever people bring up warfare involving nuclear armed states, they seldom grasp the consequences of what will happen, and that is something that would be appalling beyond imagining. Nuclear weapons truly make nation states realize the great truth in Churchill’s saying that ‘Jaw Jaw is better than war war’.
    Incidentally, it’s also why there will be nothing more than posturing over the sinking of that South Korean patrol frigate.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  264. Hurf Durf (2,860 comments) says:

    The Israeli Defence Force’s act of piracy in international waters

    What international waters, frogboy?

    Funny that it took the UNSC faster to respond to this “crisis” than it did the North Korean attack on the Cheonan, but whatever.

    Also funny that the New Communist Party chooses to side with the people who’ll attack them next after they’re done with Israel, but then again the NCs have never been hot on logical thought.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  265. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    @Southern Raider 9:23 pm

    Another simple solution is Israel acknowledging the Right of Return for Palestinians, and that there should be a bicultural state of Israel/Palestine, rather than a Jewish state.

    Much more practical than your suggestion.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  266. aardvark (417 comments) says:

    “Bullshit Aardvark its just Allah. When was the last time a Jew tried to convert you?”

    Religions don’t have to “convert you” to be a catalyst for war.

    Religions have been used by politicians since the beginning of history as a way to create power over people and to help achieve political goals.

    Let’s face it, anyone who’s superstitious enough to believe in a deity for which there is absolutely *NO* proof is pretty easily led and duped into doing almost anything their political/religious leaders demand of them.

    God has a lot to answer for (IMHO).

    I mean, even if he does exist, why the hell is he allowing such pain and suffering amongst the ranks of “his children”?

    No parent would ever allow their child to suffer as much as God allows his to.

    Hell, we can’t even smack our kids yet we worship a God who (by his inaction) has effectively tortured and killed enormous numbers of his own children.

    Religion is a huge crock and a crutch for the feeble-minded (IMHO of course).

    (That ought to put the cat amongst the pigeons eh?) :->

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  267. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    @Toad. There’s no doubt you greenies know your acid better than me.

    fact remains however it’s a crime, it was violent and if saying the IDF had no rights, then that would apply 10 fold to Pete the Pirate

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  268. Andrew W (1,629 comments) says:

    Hurf Durf, you’re confusing Territorial Waters with Exclusive Economic Zones.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  269. reid (16,638 comments) says:

    “God has a lot to answer for (IMHO).”

    That’s what all “victims” think, aardvark.

    Blaming something or someone else. Forever.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  270. aardvark (417 comments) says:

    Reid… exactly, so let’s dismiss this primitive concept of “God” and start taking responsibility for our own actions.

    By the way, if you hadn’t noticed, the more primitive the race, the greater the number of Gods they have. Sooner or later we’ll have to advance to the point where we get that number down to zero. That will be a huge breakthrough for peace on the planet.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  271. big bruv (14,165 comments) says:

    Jeff83

    I assume the 83 relates to your IQ.

    How on earth do you come up with the idea that I would be a terrorist?, as rightnow said @8.46 I would be the one asking “why are we fighting in the name with these people”.

    Now if I happened to be Israeli, well that is a different matter altogether, I would make a direct appeal to the people, it would be along the lines of “we have had enough of this shit, either you tell your leaders that the violence and terror must stop or we will unleash a shit storm on you that you will never forget, you see, we are sick of being kicked from pillar to post, we just want to get on and live in peace, but be warned, if you strike at us we will indeed hit you back ten times harder, the choice is yours”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  272. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    aardvark (397) Says:
    June 1st, 2010 at 9:46 pm

    You know the answer already so why put out the feeler?
    Silly Boy.
    Go to bed with The good Book and read the book of John for 10 minutes, then meditate on what you’ve just read.
    Do the same each night until it is finished, then start with Phillipians.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  273. Andrew W (1,629 comments) says:

    Religion is just a handy excuse hawks use to start wars, take away religion and race, or politics, or culture, or territorial disputes will just have to do.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  274. reid (16,638 comments) says:

    “if you strike at us we will indeed hit you back ten times harder, the choice is yours”

    So how do you think that tactic’s been working for them so far, BB?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  275. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    @big bruv 10:01 pm

    And what if you happened to be Palestinian?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  276. big bruv (14,165 comments) says:

    reid

    IMHO they have not hit the bastards hard enough, there is only one way to deal with terrorists (although Locke and the Greens think you can talk to these vermin) and that is to kill each and every one of them.

    Toad

    If I happened to be a Palestinian I would be asking my leaders why the hell we insist on committing acts of terror.

    For a supposedly peace loving chap and one who is against violence you do seem to make a hell of a lot of excuses for terrorists Toad.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  277. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Toad so Muslims have any one of about 100 Islamic countries to call home, Christians probably the same, and yet for some reason Jewish people shouldn’t have one place on this earth for themselves.

    This all comes back to the fundamentals of communism where the Jews are the first ones that need to go.

    Aarvark I’d suggest its not God thats the problem with the world, but the left.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  278. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    KIA’s comment of 6:56 is, as usual, balanced and well reasoned.

    The ship at the centre of this incident was the last of a flotilla of six ‘peace’ships. The IDF stopped the previous 5 who all agreed to be boarded peacefully and allowed Israeli naval personnel to guide the ships to an Israeli port to have their cargo examined in case the ships were a cover to land weapons in Gaza. Given that Iranian submarines have been seen unloading cargo off the coast of Lebanon; given that Netanyahu showed Obama satellite proof of the Syrians delivering Iranian Scud missiles to Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon and finally given the fact that the launching of almost 8,000 rockets from Gaza into civilian areas of Israel (which sparked the last war in Gaza), one can appreciate the need for Israel to enforce a blockade.

    I had wondered what happened to the other ships. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if their cargo was identical to the 6th, but the 6th ship was designated the PR vessel and duly loaded with the ‘peace’ protestors, media broadcast equipment and, of course, the weapons.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  279. Andrew W (1,629 comments) says:

    “The IDF stopped the previous 5 who all agreed to be boarded peacefully…”

    Or else they didn’t think they had an option given that they were facing Israeli commandos.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  280. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    @Southern Raider 10:12 pm

    I’m for secular states. Religions should have no part in constitutional or legal frameworks anywhere. I’m just as opposed to Iran being an Islamic state as I am to Israel being a Jewish state.

    All citizens, anywhere, should have equal status under the law, irrespective of their religion.

    This all comes back to the fundamentals of communism where the Jews are the first ones that need to go.

    That’s an incredibly vile comment, SR. Remember Pastor Martin Niemöller:

    “They came first for the Communists,
    and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  281. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Islam is purported to have it origins in a chap named Ishmael. Judaism is purported to have its origins in a chap named Isaac.

    According to Genesis, Ishmael and Isaac were half-brothers, having same father Abraham. Islam shares the Torah (The first 5 books of the Bible) with Judaism and Christianity.

    The Bible records the Jews as being “Gods chosen people” in Exodus, the 2nd book. So, unless I’m mistaken, Muslims have Holy Scriptures that record the Jews as being “Gods chosen people”?!? That would make this matter the world’s most bitter, pan-generational family spat!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  282. TimG_Oz (865 comments) says:

    Another simple solution is Israel acknowledging the Right of Return for Palestinians, and that there should be a bicultural state of Israel/Palestine, rather than a Jewish state.

    Much more practical than your suggestion.

    Only more practical, because you are pro-violence from Palestinians. When this “bicultural state” of yours is created, Zionism is made a crime and all the “Zionist suspects” are rounded up and deported, you’ll be as silent as you were this year when Hamas missiles killed and maimed. As silent as you are when Ahmadinejad states he’s going to wipe Israel from the map.

    Of course violence is only a crime in the eyes of the Greens when it’s done by Israelis, even in self defense.

    Everybody remember NZ GREEN PARTY is PRO WAR.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  283. reid (16,638 comments) says:

    “When this “bicultural state” of yours is created, Zionism is made a crime and all the “Zionist suspects” are rounded up and deported, you’ll be as silent as you were this year when Hamas missiles killed and maimed. As silent as you are when Ahmadinejad states he’s going to wipe Israel from the map.”

    Er…..

    Israel has nukes.

    Who’s going to do what you suggest, without it retaliating.

    Or do you want to argue that it doesn’t have nukes.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  284. TimG_Oz (865 comments) says:

    I’m for secular states.

    Another great one from Toad. Israel is a secular state – as secular as New Zealand. We had an Arab from Israel in Melbourne, where Arabs have as much rights as Jews. He said (quote) “Israel is not apartheid”

    When did you last hear the Greens protesting or critcising Hamas? Do they want a secular state, or an Islamic state?

    How about Saudi Arabia? How do the Jewish Community feel there? Oh dear, Jews aren’t aloud to set foot in that country. Is that racist? Any complaints from the Greens? Nope.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  285. TimG_Oz (865 comments) says:

    Reid – who do you think would run Toad’s “Bicultural state”? How would it be created – by a vote of Israelis? It’s got less chance than “Maori Sovereignty” in New Zealand.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  286. reid (16,638 comments) says:

    Why don’t you answer my question first. Tim.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  287. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    Epic fucking fail, period. And guess who suffers?

    The Jewish people, that’s who. Poorly served, and have been for a long time. And that’s putting it extremely mildly. Those are who should be put on the block – Netanyahu, etc. But what’s the point. Another one is waiting in the wings for exactly this contingency.

    I agree. And it appears that the editorial headlines in Israel today are rather more in line with our views than those of some other people in this thread.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  288. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    @TimG_Oz 10:39 pm

    I am not “pro-violence” from anyone.

    Don’t misrepresent me. I oppose violence by both the Palestinians and the Israelis.

    This thread, however, is about Israeli violence in international waters against a humanitarian mission.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  289. Hurf Durf (2,860 comments) says:

    “Some other people,” eh, Wussell, you smug prog?

    Bugger off back to Pubic Address where the rest of the scummers can nod in agreement with you.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  290. TimG_Oz (865 comments) says:

    OK sorry reid, to make it BLATANTLY CLEAR… Is this the question: “Who’s going to do what you suggest, without it retaliating?” – the people running Toad’s “Bicultural state” will be Hamas, who will do as I suggest

    Such a state will not be created peacefully, so it would only happen via war. There are enough posters here on this thread (goh etc), basically shouting “Kill Israel!”

    Does that answer your question, or do I need to spell it out more?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  291. TimG_Oz (865 comments) says:

    I am not “pro-violence” from anyone.

    Then why such disparate reactions to violence from each side?

    Isn’t it normal procedure to check ships for illicit cargo? Don’t you want NZ borders to be protected when ships docked? If 5 ships allowed such a procedure, and one was so prepared for violence, why don’t you condemn them? Why don’t you condemn Hamas rockets in the same way as you condemn Israel?

    Don’t Israeli citizens have the same rights to peace? Not from the Greens … if Israelis get murdered or kidnapped, it’s they’re own fault according to the Greens, isn’t it?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  292. reid (16,638 comments) says:

    Tim, the question is. Who’s going to attack Israel and threaten its nationhood while its got nukes?

    Who?

    Simple question.

    The answer is: no-one.

    Therefore, its invulnerable. Therefore, it can afford, like all secure nations, to act with benevolence.

    Does it?

    No.

    Why?

    Who knows.

    Perhaps you should read my previous post some of which Russell just quoted.

    Anyhoo, point is. They don’t need to do what they do. They just don’t need to.

    Furthermore, not only is it not necessary to do what they do, it’s counter-productive.

    When are you Israel-all-the-way-no-matter-what people are going to wake up to the fact that by your support you’re actually killing the people of that nation.

    And yes, I do recognise they are surrounded by a sea of implacable hatred.

    And no, that doesn’t change the equation.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  293. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    I oppose violence by both the Palestinians and the Israelis. This thread, however, is about Israeli violence in international waters against a humanitarian mission.

    Can you point me to where you protested that IDF folks were mobbed, beaten with steel bars and thrown overboard on the high seas?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  294. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    How about Saudi Arabia? How do the Jewish Community feel there? Oh dear, Jews aren’t aloud to set foot in that country. Is that racist? Any complaints from the Greens? Nope.

    “Nope” only in the sense that you don’t really know what you’re on about.

    The Green Party of Saudi Arabia has been declared an illegal organisation by the families that run that place and can only operate as a clandestine organisation. Just guessing, but I think the Greens have complained quite a bit about that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  295. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    Stuart Mackey you have to be joking, Israel nukes Iran, Russia decides that Israel is acting like a mad dog and nukes Israel.
    Do you really believe that the USA would take all of Russia’s cities out knowing that Russia will do the same to it ?

    Nukes in the middle east, all the countries will have them shortly and nuclear war will start by accident, much like it nearly happened between the USSR and the USA in the seventies when the Russians got false readings of a USA launch.
    They had the common sense to ring the Americans to ask if they had launched.

    But that will not happen in the Middle East because the whole lot of them are right around the bloody twist.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  296. TimG_Oz (865 comments) says:

    reid. We’ve had this conversation many times.

    Lets say that you are right, and no country attacks Israel. I certainly hope that you are, and that we have seen the last of the “major” wars. Ahmadinejad seems to suggest that he will, and has declared himself a nuclear power… that is beside the point.

    Lets say that Israel has a right to border security, like any other country. Lets say, that Israeli Security personal have a right to life on 5 out of 6 vessels. Yep. Lets say, on the 6th vessel, that maybe, just maybe, they are a bunch of terrorists, with a cache of arms. OK. Lets say, maybe the Israelis weren’t prepared (had paint guns). Oops? OK. So what should they do? Somehow, I don’t think allowing themselves to be beaten to death with crowbars and stabbed with knives is part of the equation….

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  297. reid (16,638 comments) says:

    ” Somehow, I don’t think allowing themselves to be beaten to death with crowbars and stabbed with knives is part of the equation….”

    Yeah but that’s not what happened, from all reports, is it Tim?

    It wasn’t justifiable self-defence. And if it was, so far, the powerful IDF propaganda machine have given no hint whatsoever, at a time when if there was the slightest chance such a proposition would fly, they would have been in full broadcast mode. But not a peep, from the IDF propaganda machine.

    The IDF presumably didn’t land dear old granny on these ships. Just who do you imagine the IDF selected to do this op?

    Playboy Bunnies?

    10-year-old boys?

    Do you think these people would have been told that they didn’t need to expect anything? Yes, there were lots of muslim civilians on board. Nope, shouldn’t be a problem. Do you think that’s what happened? Just a nasty unforeseen and unforeseeable accident?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  298. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    Russell Brown: The Green Party of Saudi Arabia has been declared an illegal organisation by the families that run that place and can only operate as a clandestine organisation.

    I think you’ll find he is talking about the Green Party of NEW ZEALAND genius.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  299. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    Why did they have news reporters on the ship Reid, this is a setup and a good one at that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  300. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Toad
    “All citizens, anywhere, should have equal status under the law, irrespective of their religion.”
    what about race Toad? – does that apply to race – and ‘anywhere’ apply to NZ?

    you make up you principles as you go along

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  301. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    I think you’ll find he is talking about the Green Party of NEW ZEALAND genius.

    Yes, I know. On whose website you can find the following, arguing for a reconsideration of the West’s cosy relationship with Saudi Arabia. And they were saying it in 2002:

    Saudi Arabia is almost unique in the world in not only abusing human rights, but also in not even recogising them. Saudi Arabia is one of the last repressive feudal monarchies in the world. It has no constitution, no parliament and no political parties, women have fewer rights and freedoms than even in other repressive Islamic states, and execution by beheading is a legal punishment.

    I know it’s not about reality for you guys, but the idea that the Greens support Saudi Arabia is particularly silly.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  302. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    “Some other people,” eh, Wussell, you smug prog?

    Bugger off back to Pubic Address where the rest of the scummers can nod in agreement with you.

    Whatever. My point stands. If you weenies bothered to read the Israeli media rather than jabber about whatever the noise machine tells you today, you might grasp that this is being widely, if not universally, seen as a royal fuckup. Another one.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  303. Eddie (288 comments) says:

    @ Russell 7.53am “I know it’s not about reality for you guys,”, “you guys” ?

    @ Russell 8.03am “If you weenies bothered to read the Israeli media”, weenies“?

    The sanctimony is strong in this one.

    And for the record Russell, quite a few on “the right” consider the Israeli’s to be fucking insane to the same degree as North Korea.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  304. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Wow, what a hot topic. It makes interesting reading. On one side are those who wish to see fair play for all, and on the other a fanatical devotion to a cause grounded in myth, enacted in savagery, and perpetuated by the mysteries of geo-politics.

    You can take your choice as to which applies to your good selves.

    I wonder, now that Israel has possession of the boatloads of aid, will it live up to its previous offer and deliver all the aid to the prisoners of Gaza? A goodwill gesture that would surely give Israel’s image a much needed boost! I won’t hold my breath, sorry guys.

    Now then, why don’t the aid organisations just give their aid to Israel for them to deliver it? Perhaps because Israel’s record, according to the UN, is to hold up the aid so long that perishables are ruined, all writing materials (education is a terrorist activity, even in UNRWA schools) are confiscated, and at times the convoys are even fired upon.

    But hey, surely we can trust the Aussie, Mark Regev?

    The timing is prescient, but as we speak John Ging, director of UNRWA, is giving a public lecture at the London School of Economics. The talk is titled: Inhumane, illegal and insane: A Medieval Siege on Gaza in 2010. You can get the podcast later on the LSE site on the LSE page on itunesU.

    And as they say, every cloud has a silver lining, and Egypt has opened the Rafah crossing, obviously to deflect criticism at the upcoming Arab league meeting.

    In spite of the propaganda posted above, the UN estimates that only a fraction of the required aid reaches the Gazan prisoners, which is why yet another vessel is approaching Gaza with supplies, and I have the feeling that this is just the beginning of a long nightmare for Israel until the pressure gets to them and they relax the siege.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  305. Graeme Edgeler (3,290 comments) says:

    Saudi Arabia is almost unique in the world in not only abusing human rights, but also in not even recogising them. Saudi Arabia is one of the last repressive feudal monarchies in the world. It has no constitution, no parliament and no political parties

    Saudi Arabia does have a constitution. And that basic law at least recognises human rights (though, of course, there is abuse).

    The Basic Law, adopted in 1992 has the basis of Government (i.e. is effectively a constitution, not unlike the Basic Laws of other countries), and it also states (according to the wikisource translation):

    “Article 1 The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a sovereign Arab Islamic state with Islam as its religion; Allah’s Book and the Sunnah of His Prophet, Allah’s prayers and peace be upon him, are its constitution, Arabic is its language and Riyadh is its capital.”

    and

    “Article 26 [Human Rights] The state protects human rights in accordance with the Islamic Shari’ah.

    “Article 27 [Welfare Rights] The state guarantees the rights of the citizen and his family in cases of emergency, illness and disability, and in old age; it supports the system of social security and encourages institutions and individuals to contribute in acts of charity.

    “Article 28 [Work] The state provides job opportunities for who-ever is capable of working; it enacts laws that protect the employee and employer.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  306. pentwig (240 comments) says:

    Luc

    I put you in the same catagory as the liar-bry phool.
    A RAVING LUNATIC.

    For goodness sake go to bed and give us a break from your biased vile rantings.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  307. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Further to KIA’s comment above, this link may be of interest to some: Shooting the Messenger: A Look at the Facts on the Turkish Aid Group IHH. For some heavyweight reading try: THE ROLE OF ISLAMIC CHARITIES IN INTERNATIONAL TERRORIST RECRUITMENT AND FINANCING.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  308. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    “Article 26 [Human Rights] The state protects human rights in accordance with the Islamic Shari’ah.

    Here’s a picture of a woman experiencing ‘Human Rights’, Sharia style.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  309. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Toad
    This thread, however, is about Israeli violence in international waters against a humanitarian mission.

    Bollocks.
    It is about the right of a sovereign state to protect it’s citizens from acts of terror by blockading (and enforcing that) the terrorists and their suppliers /enablers.

    Krazykiwi
    I commented on that group earlier from some elses links.
    Good points.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  310. Graeme Edgeler (3,290 comments) says:

    Here’s a picture of a woman experiencing ‘Human Rights’, Sharia style.

    Absolutely. I’m not saying Saudi Arabia respects Human Rights, but the statement by the Greens that Saudi Arabia has no Constitution, and not even a recognition of human rights is false now, and was false in 2002 when they said it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  311. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    LUC
    nd I have the feeling that this is just the beginning of a long nightmare for Israel until the pressure gets to them and they relax the siege.

    It is just part of a long nightmare since 1948 (and before).
    What is galling is that so called democracies and some so called friends aid and abet the terrorists and their suppliers.

    I don’t include you of course as you’re just a Jooooo hater in wanting the destruction/cessation of the Jewish state of Israel.
    Much like the EU, much of the UN, OIC, Russia et al.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  312. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Ah pentwig, a post right up to your usual standards, I see.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  313. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Kiwi in America succintly puts it.
    Israel’s options are:
    1 – Allow the ships to break the blockade. The risk in this is to send a message to its enemies that Israel is not serious about preventing the flow of weapons into Gaza. It runs the risk of further rocket attacks should any of these ships succeed in breaching the blockade.
    2 – Intercept the ship and anticipate the presence of numerous activists who will fight to prevent any diversion of the ship and use full military force to take over the vessel. The result: the same round of massive condemnation that Israel is currently receiving.
    3 – Intercept the ships and attempt a peaceful and orderly diversion of the ship. Having done this successfully with ships 1 to 5 of the flotilla perhaps the IDF were naive enough to expect that all 6 would behave as peacefully as their stated intention. Their miscalculation is the reason for the outcome that is now played out in the world’s media.

    I think the Israelis miscalculated badly, in trying to be decent they tried 3. above when they should have used 2. This time they would have been right to have blown them out of the water.

    This is asymmetrical war and with the so called democracies at the UN are not acting with integrity in the world and as a result the Israelis are and always have been on their own.
    The pretend agreement that there is a non peaceful way is rubbish (pretend agreement), this is war in all its forms and forums and the aim is the end of the state of Israel even if the media and West won’t state so.

    At least Hamas and Hizbullah have more integrity that the UN and EU and the West in this matter, they have stated their position and use the useful idiots at the Un and on this blog (at their level) to further their aim of driving the jooooos into the sea.

    The West is a moral coward and will become part of the Dar al Islam and Dhimmis by it’s lack of resolve to stand against Islam (the religion of peace lie) and protect the Jews against the onslaught.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  314. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Pentwig
    Good points about LUC.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  315. TimG_Oz (865 comments) says:

    Russell Brown – Yes if you “search” the Greens website you can find a few bits on Saudi Arabia. I think it’s pretty fair to say they are not singled out like Israel are.

    However, if you search for “Hamas” – the best you can find is articles from Keith Locke, saying what a great bunch of guys they are. From this point, I would say that it’s fairly clear that NZ Greens are PRO WAR.

    The NZ Greens will only give cursory nods to Hamas initiated violence, as they have done here, yet single out Israel as a Pariah, when soldiers are forced into acts of self preservation in the face of such violence.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  316. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Russell
    You are a liar and a person without integrity on this issue, if you in any way don’t state that the Greens are helping the Hamas cause in the asymmetrical warfare Islamic jihad (of which they are a part) is waging against the Jewish State by their deliberate phrasing of the narrative and actions they have control over.

    The denial that the aim of Hamas is the destruction of the Jewish state and that the Greens are aiding that by not speaking out against it means the Greens have taken sides against the Jews in Israel and that makes you as culpable as them if you defend them or aid them.

    The whole issue is about the continued existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish state nothing else.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  317. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Hey LUC
    you’ve got all the info at your fingertips, how about letting us know how much money/aid/cash has been expropristed (read stolen) from the so called palestinians (read Arabs) in Gaza and the so called West bank (read samari and Judea) and if it hadn’t been stolen where would their economys be now.
    Oh can yopu also let us know how much of it was used for weaponary as opposed to humanitarian uses?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  318. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Krazy
    I thought one of the reasons for the blockade was the kidnapped Shalit.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  319. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    OK MikeNZ, I’ll put you down with the fanatics, OK?

    Like all bar one of the member states of the UN, including the US, I support two states, with Palestinians and Israelis living in peace with full normal relations.

    I also think eventually that will inevitably lead to some sort of unification in the distant future, if Israel ever allows the two state solution to be implemented. But I also think that will only happen when the US withdraws its unconditional support for Israel which, after all, is motivated solely by dwindling supplies of oil, with the additional complicating factor of the US electoral system and the extraordinarily effective Israel lobby.

    But a disaster for Israel like this latest massacre is hopefully another step towards this, so those people have not died in vain.

    Think about this ; just as Hamas’ suicide bombings and then rockets eventually became counter productive for Palestinians, so this perceived addiction to ultra-violence by Israel is fast becoming counter-productive for Israel.

    If Israel decided, at some level, to make an example of the flotilla’s lead ship to scare off future missions, it appears it has badly misfired. We can expect to see more important people on future convoys and this will make Israel’s problems even more dire. Better to lift the siege. It’s got to end one day, after all.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  320. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “The whole issue is about the continued existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish state nothing else.”

    I agree, but I think it can’t and won’t happen whereas you think it must happen. It seems to me inevitable it must evolve into a secular multi-cultural state. Nothing else will bring peace and it cannot survive perpetual war.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  321. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    LUC
    you have rocks in your head or you are already a Dhimmi?
    There will never be a unification both in Israel or anywhere else in the world.
    Islam is (traditionally by founder) divided the world into dar al Islam and Dar al Harb.
    The world subject to Sharia (Islam) and the world at war.

    Israel is an affront to Islam and as long as she exists she will continue to be so.

    why are you in denial?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  322. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Alan
    What do you mean by a secular multi-cultural state? and why do you think that will bring peace?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  323. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    KIA, Hamas has already delivered a defacto recognition of Israel by competing in the last elections where the result was arbitrarily overturned by Israel and the US. When it entered the elections, it called off all resistance activities.

    The main point with Hamas, though, is this: it only arose after 20 years of military occupation by Israel (and the 1967 war had nothing to do with any actions by Palestinians and everything to do with Israel annexing land) and only exists because of resentment by Palestinians against what is widely perceived as a brutal and belligerent occupation. Remove the occupation, return the stolen land (the 1967 version, not 1948), and allow Palestinians the human right of autonomy and support for Hamas will rapidly decline.

    Furthermore, there is plenty of evidence that as the IRA did, Hamas has largely run out of steam and its now aging leaders would settle for a quiet life.

    Future generations may take a different view, but that’s an known unknown, as Rummy would say!

    Now, having said that, I don’t for a moment believe that the Israeli elite want anything other than full possession of all of historic Palestine, and the facts bear me out. No wonder Mitchell wants out!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  324. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    The chance for a lasting peace ever existing in the area is slipping due to the actions of Israel, re building on confiscated land, fucking up Lebannon and Gaza, a continued debatably legal blockade and now this (ignoring the constant deliberate bombings of UN obervers through out various periods).

    Yes Israel is at war, because it has effectively choosen this route since the failure at Camp David. Their current stratergy will give them short term security, but long term it does not bode well, which is a total trajedy.
    ……………
    Time for Obama to tell Netanyahu US support has been terminated – but with the highly vociferous Jewish lobby in Washington he probably won’t be allowed to

    It’s amazing to find the same arguments trotted out by the Left in 2010 that were the staple crticisms of Israel through the 1990’s, as if nothing had changed since 2000.

    Demands that Israel give up land, remove settlers, allow Palestinian autonomy in at least some areas, recognising the right of a Palestinian nation to exist, recognising the PLO/Fatah and negotiating with its leaders – Arafat being the number former hate object to be so negotiated with.

    All this Israel has done. They did, at least in the Gaza Strip, remove the IDF, remove their settlers (using the force of the IDF), and allowed the residents of Gaza to vote for who they wanted.

    And what has been the result? From an Israeli perspective it would seem the world hates their guts even more than before. Their have been no fruits from these efforts in the same way there was with Egypt – if anything they simply seem to have brought their enemies in closer. Remember also that as recently as the 1980’s the PLO was effectively banished to places like Tunisa – and even then the Israeli Air Force reached out to bomb their camps. Stopping those sorts of events and allowing Yasar and co. to ‘return home’ was supposed to lead to better outcomes, yet all it seems to have done is up the ante.

    The Israeli’s themselves have figured this out – as a recent article by Noah Pollack in Commentary makes clear. The article is a response to a recent piece by an American Jew (a Left-wing ‘Liberal’ naturally) named Peter Beinart, but you should all read it, since there are some incidental reflections on the current Israeli situation:

    Beinart writes as if none of the tragedies of the past two decades happened, or if they did happen, that Israelis, unique among peoples, may not allow themselves to acquire any fears or resentments or lessons. Even Shimon Peres, one of Israel’s greatest doves, understands what has transpired, telling the Wall Street Journal a few days ago: “I am not surprised that so many Israelis lost their trust when they’re being attacked time after time, time after time.”

    Lost their trust indeed: the Meretz/Labor peace-process faction held 56 Knesset seats in 1992. Today they have 16. Normally in politics, such a massive shift in public opinion is accompanied by genuine inquiry about why it happened. Beinart is unreflective. It must be because of the settlers, or racism, or AIPAC.

    The fact that the Left was often in power in Israel during past ‘atrocities’ was an uncomfortable fact for many Westerrn Leftists, and led to a great many angry comments about them not really being of the Left. Now that the political scene has shifted so decisively against them there is an opening for the Western Left to talk about ‘incompetence’, ‘idiocy’ and so forth, carefully circling around the central accusation that only the more extreme factions make – and which Pollack nails:

    This charge has two subordinate tenets: revisionism for dealing with the past, and conspiracy theory for dealing with the present. Thus, in Beinart’s telling, large numbers of Israelis are racists and authoritarians who never really wanted peace, and their political leaders are fanatics manipulating guileless Americans and Palestinians while mainstream American Jewish organizations enable them from the sidelines.

    The last is actually the centrepiece of the response. With all the talk of Jewish control of US policy making, Beinart makes a big deal about announcing his coming out as an Israeli critic, when he was a former editor of a pro-Israel magazine, New Republic. He speaks of it being “The hardest thing I’ve ever written,”. Pollack then comments:

    Please. As the astonishingly polite reaction to his article over the past week has demonstrated, there are few postures today from which it is more comfortable and advantageous to call out one’s anguish and concern than as a Jewish critic of Israel.

    The ranks are full of people who have made careers out of being contemporary prophets, traveling the land to warn the Israelites that their arrogance and sin is inviting catastrophe. The key difference is that the biblical prophets were often despised and persecuted figures, whereas the prophets of today enjoy the embrace of a vast array of institutions, foundations, and publications.

    How hard it must be for Beinart to ally with his employer, the New America Foundation, and Haaretz, Americans for Peace Now, the Israel Policy Forum, the New York Review of Books, the Nation magazine, the New York Times editorial and op-ed pages, Time magazine, the American Conservative, the American Prospect, Mother Jones, the entirety of the British and European media, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, B’tselem, J Street, J Call, the New Israel Fund, Richard Goldstone, the UN Human Rights Council, the UN General Assembly, the European Union, the British Foreign Office, the European Council, scores of NGOs, Walt and Mearsheimer, Tom Segev, Avi Shlaim, Tony Judt, Tel Aviv University, every Middle East Studies department, George Soros, the Ford Foundation, Brent Scowcroft, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Jimmy Carter, Andrew Sullivan, Noam Chomsky, Mondoweiss, and … well, you get the picture.

    Read the whole article.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  325. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Listening to you guys discuss Hamas is like entering a time warp.

    It is now six months since Jewish Zionist billionaire David Abrahams announced:

    ‘Hamas accepts Israel’s right to exist’
    “Hamas has accepted Israel’s right to exist and would be prepared to nullify its charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel, Aziz Dwaik, Hamas’s most senior representative in the West Bank, said on Wednesday.”

    …it is probably time some of you updated your script.

    http://www.davidmartinabrahams.co.uk/?page=articles&id=66

    It is probably also time that you got acquainted with a few of the Hamas leaders:

    Aziz Dwaik, professor of urban geography, PhD in Regional and Architecture Planning from the University of Pennsylvania.
    Ismail Haniyeh, B.A. (Arabic Literature)
    Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi, physician, studied pediatric medicine and genetics at Egypt’s Alexandria University, graduating first in his class. (Assassinated by the Israeli Army after they fired hellfire missiles from an AH-64 helicopter at his car)
    Khaled Mashal, Bachelor of Science degree in Physics. (Survived assassination attempt by Mossad under orders from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu)
    Basim Naim, Physician.
    Mahmoud al-Zahar, Surgeon.
    Jamila Shanti, Ph.D (English)
    Mousa Abu Marzook, Ph.D. in industrial engineering (United States)

    …and got up to speed.

    Serious people are recognizing Hamas:

    Sir Jeremy Greenstock:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7823000/7823746.stm

    Henry Siegman, director of the US Middle East Project in New York, visiting research professor at SOAS, University of London, former national director of the American Jewish Congress and of the Synagogue Council of America.
    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n02/henry-siegman/israels-lies#

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  326. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    MikeNZ, I mean a state in which all religions and people are treated equally under the law and minorities are constitutionally protected. I think it will bring peace because it is better to have potential enemies inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. When you are in the same tent you have a mutual interest in keeping crap outside.

    Of course getting from here to there is difficult to put it mildly but when there is no other realistic future it needs to be got on with.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  327. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    LUC
    Michell wants out as he knows the Arabs want full control of Israel and Israel won’t/can’t allow that ever.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  328. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Alan
    Have you ever read anything on Dhimmitude?
    Did Jordan look after all religions and their sites during it’s ownership between 1948 -67 of the Westbank and Jerusalem?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  329. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Thanks for all that spoof.
    read the last post.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  330. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Tom
    Thanks for the link.
    I read commentary often though some of it is subscriber only.

    How do you insert the commentary quotes with the line block at the side.
    I’ve been cut and pasting with etc.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  331. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “Did Jordan look after all religions and their sites during it’s ownership between 1948 -67 of the Westbank and Jerusalem?”

    I wouldn’t expect so but why do you think that is a model?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  332. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    MikeNZ – use “blockquote” and “/blockquote” between the usual left-right arrows

    Then place your cut-and-past stuff in between the “blockquote” bits

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  333. kiwi in america (2,511 comments) says:

    Luc
    Ehud Barak offered Yassar Arafat 97% of that land wish list but it wasn’t enough – he wanted the whole enchilada. Israel’s position on a 2 state solution is quite simple. Renounce terror and recognise Israel – Hamas wont do it properly and without unacceptable requirements. Stop dancing around the head of a pin about defacto recognition. Same with Hezbollah. Trying to sneak rockets into Lebanon and Gaza really shows the two H’s true intentions. Scuds this time – chemicals? All designed to launch on Israel should Israel take out Iran’s nuclear facilities.

    Mitchell got out because he knows the end game here.

    spoff
    Sounds so very reasonable all those PhDs – pity they cant reign in Hamas’ death squads that they turned on Fatah becasue they were too accomodating of a real 2 state solution. Hamas’ price for modifying its charter is the right of return of refugees. We all know where that will lead. Hamas’ fallback position for the destruction of Israel is to force a 2 state solution that guarantees a right of return. Demographically Israeli Jews would be swamped and then forced out by a soon to be Muslim majority that requires dhimmitude and sees all non Muslim religions as inferior and to be squashed. The Israelis will never sanction death to their state even if it is only incremental and relatively bloodless.

    Palestinians play a shell game trying to look so very reasonable and reinforcing the meme that Israel is a hostile intransigent occupier – a meme the left leaning MSM globally are only too happy to agree with and parrot.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  334. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    Population of Israel 7.3M, population of Palestine 3.9M. Doesn’t look like an insurmountable swamping to me?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  335. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Alan
    You opine for a secular democracy in place of the existent sovereign State of Israel and Jordan represents the best that we’ve had in the area’s history.
    That is what you will get to replace Israel, so they Jews and Christians will get screwed again.

    But then you know that don’t you?
    Because so called secular states aren’t manning up and acting with integrity now so why should they in the future (if there is such a thing)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  336. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Thanks Tom

    Population of Israel 7.3M, population of Palestine 3.9M. Doesn’t look like an insurmountable swamping to me?

    Another soundbite Alan?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  337. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Mike, 20% of Israel’s population is Palestinian.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  338. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    USA Kiwi
    Give it to them.
    I just love all the hand exercisers on this.
    They are already Dhimmis as they sit here in their so called secular safety and deliberately ignore history, Ohh the intellectual dishonesty of so called educated people.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  339. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    LUC
    I know that
    What % (ground area) is Israel of the Middle East map you link us to?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  340. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Alan
    have you ever read anything on Dhimmitude?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  341. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    KIA

    Books have been written about that so-called offer and it’s basically a myth. There was no offer – there were informal talks. Arafat would not give up East Jerusalem, and Barak could not deliver, anyway, as he was facing an election he lost because he was perceived as too soft.

    Imagine that. Barak too soft. This is the guy who walked up to a captured, disarmed, female Palestinian resistance fighter and shot her at point blank range in her head.

    Just a cuddly teddy bear, eh?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  342. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Mike, do your own meaningless sums.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  343. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    MikeNZ, you do seem to have trouble with inconvenient facts. I don’t see how a combined secular state of Israel and Palestine leads to a swamping of Jews. I am willing to be convinced otherwise.

    I don’t think Jordan is an appropriate model since AFAIK it never contained a significant number of Jews. Israel itself seems a far better model to start with and to adapt with some compromises.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  344. kiwi in america (2,511 comments) says:

    Plus the Palestinian birth rate is almost 3 x that of the Israeli. 3.9m Palestinians outside Israel plus 1.5m inside = 5.4m. Under the Israeli no threshold list method of electing, if you add the dovish left wing Israeli parties, you’d have a Muslim and Muslim leaning majority in the Knesset in no time. Not an option Alan.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  345. kiwi in america (2,511 comments) says:

    Of course the oil rich Omani sultanates, Saudi Arabia and others could’ve spent billions easing the plight of the Palestinians. For political reasons (ie make Israel look bad) they could’ve spent heaps on roads, schools, hospitals etc but didnt. Ditto the billions the Palestinian Authority has got from the UN, EU and other NGOs. Arafat and cronies chose to spend a good chunk of that on an intefada and a war apparatus rather than nation building. Ditto Hamas in Gaza. How much direct foreign aid to Hamas gets spent on weapons and arms rather than food and medical supplies. A ton.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  346. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    meaningless?
    Ohh it has mean as you well know.

    Perhaps it’s because you don’t want to advertise that Israel makes up less than 1% of your maps area, namely the middle East.

    I think the best option is to repatriate all the Arabs into the surrounding Arab/Muslim culture like all other conflicts have done.
    But no the UN set up a separate refugee org to pander to the Arab lobby and the Arab countries that make up the middle east, the other 99% of the area have deliberately kept the so called Palestinians in squalor.

    After all Arabs have 99% of the Middle east, lets be fair now why can’t the Jews have 1%.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  347. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/01/turkey-attacks-israel/

    another perspective.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  348. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “have you ever read anything on Dhimmitude?” A little, as well as stuff on the Crusades, Inquisition, etc. As I said above, civilising religions is both possible and necessary. They are essentially tools for manipulating people and power.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  349. kiwi in america (2,511 comments) says:

    Luc
    Yea books by the same suspects that support the Palestinian cause. Just because a pro-Palestinian apologist thought it was a myth doesnt make it so.

    Dennis Ross who was President Clinton’s chief negotiator (and recently appointed by President Obama to a Middle East negotiating position) said of Arafat’s unwillingness to accept the proposal “to end the conflict is to end himself” . Clinton himself was furious with Arafat and many of the State Department officials who participated in the negotiations placed the blame for failure fairly and squarely on the shoulders of Arafat. Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia conducted many behind-the-scenes negotiations to facilitate a settlement. Arafat himself had asked for Bandar’s help due to his extensive experience as the Saudi’s US Ambassador for 20 years. Arafat asked Bandar if he could get a better deal than that offered at Camp David. Bandar told Elsa Walsh of The New Yorker that he said to Arafat (after reviewing all the previous missed opportunities for peace since 1948) “Either you take this deal or we go to war. If you take this deal, we will throw our weight behind you. If you don’t take this deal, do you think anyone will go to war for you?” Bandar went on further and warned “If we lose this opportunity, it is not going to be a tragedy; it is going to be a crime”. Bandar also intimated that not only would the Saudis sign off but so would the Egyptians who were tired of the mess in Gaza on their border.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  350. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Alan
    It is you who have a problem with inconvenient facts, namely history.

    The Jews as the only democracy in the area have treated the other religions much better than the Islamists have ever done and Jordan was the best of the lot of them.

    But you know that.

    The so called secular UN has treated the Jews abominably since 1948, so much so they aren’t part of the region they exist in and do not have the same rigthts and relationship as do all other countries there.

    But you know that.

    So how based on history do you think a secular set up state will treat the Jews?

    and I think you know that.

    Plus you will be giving in to bullies and tyrants both secular , communist and islamist.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  351. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Alan

    “have you ever read anything on Dhimmitude?” A little, as well as stuff on the Crusades, Inquisition, etc. As I said above, civilising religions is both possible and necessary. They are essentially tools for manipulating people and power.

    and secular isn’t?
    Secular to a person of another faith is just another religion so I can never agree with your position.
    You deliberately ignore this and therefore are acting in subterfuge.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  352. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    kiwi in america: “Under the Israeli no threshold list method of electing, if you add the dovish left wing Israeli parties, you’d have a Muslim and Muslim leaning majority in the Knesset in no time.”

    Adapt the constitution, put in protections, create slow transitions, give people a stake in common endeavours, deal with past injustices. All of these would be necessary and take exceptional skill. But I see no alternative.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  353. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    and they will never happen as the Jews know from History what will happen to them in time in a secular state (not).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  354. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “Secular to a person of another faith is just another religion so I can never agree with your position.”

    Why? Secular beliefs and behaviours need to be civilised in exactly the same way and need to be tolerant of others’ religious beliefs?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  355. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    KIA

    There you go again.

    You show complete ignorance of the so-called “Arab” people. It’s really a motley collection of ethnicities united by a religion. We call Egyptians Arab, yet they are African.

    As far as the other sultanates, as you call them, are concerned, why should they step in to solve the problems created by the formation of Israel for a favoured few Europeans?

    And why do you think Palestinians still stay in their camps? It’s because it is THEIR land, and they ain’t going anywhere! Otherwise, instead of using all those US dollars for arms, why doesn’t Israel pay Palestinians to emigrate elsewhere?

    And Mike, wtf? There is no repatriation involved here. Palestinians are largely the descendants of the original semitic inhabitants of the land. I say largely because the passing parade of conquerors has had an effect on the gene pool. But many villages (even ones extant to this day) can trace their history back to Roman times.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  356. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “and they will never happen as the Jews know from History what will happen to them in time in a secular state ”

    That’s absurd. Jews live in most secular states in the world without oppression or fear of oppression.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  357. kiwi in america (2,511 comments) says:

    Alan
    You are suggesting a Fiji solution here – that the Israelis create some two tiered system that grants higher voting weight to their parties to ensure they maintain a majority. And in 15 years when the Muslim population is 2/3rds to the Jewish 1/3rd how long will your adaptations and protections last? You clearly dont read the literature of these people – you clearly dont know how Islam works in the modern era. The peace loving Muslims (who are the majority) will not stand up to the jihadist minority. A driving force behind jihad is not the Palestinians plight per se despite so much rhetoric to that effect, it is the destruction of the Jewish state. A majority Muslim population in Israel will not be some benign Indonesian style Muslim state – look what happened to Jewish minorities throughout history. At very best they were treated as 2nd class citizens and denied the right to own land and at worst they were annihilated. If you think that an amended constitution that tried to protect Jews from these forces would work then you either wont or cant read history or you are in cloud cuckoo land.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  358. Jeff83 (745 comments) says:

    Murray, your last post is total bullshit. I do not believe them evil, I believe there current actions against the Palestinian people completely immoral however.

    But go live in your fantasy land.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  359. kiwi in america (2,511 comments) says:

    You know Luc I once challenged you to put up the documentary evidence of land ownership that proved that the Israelis arbitrarily took over Arab land in the 1948 war as the Palestinians allege. Hows that quest going? Yes – in the melee of war there was a handful of villagers in what became Israel who were forced to leave land that they owned. For those few they have every right to be fully compensated. Even Benny Morris (hardly a Zionist apologist) in “Righteous Victims” said “Historians have concluded that only several thousand families were displaced following land sales to Jews from the 1880’s to the 1930’s” . The vast majority of the land that is inside the 1948 boundaries of Israel was legally acquired by Jewish settlers from the largely absentee usually Lebanese Arab owners and usually for full market value. Legal owners asking poor Palestinian famers to leave the land they have now bought does not rise to the level of having their land forceably expropriated from them. The Israelis keep good records. Surely your army of Palestinian researchers have unearthed the thousands of ‘stolen’ acres.

    Put up the links to the land deeds that prove your proposition or spare us the “THEIR land” mantra.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  360. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “The peace loving Muslims (who are the majority) will not stand up to the jihadist minority.”

    They will if they have the motive and the means.

    “in 15 years when the Muslim population is 2/3rds to the Jewish 1/3rd how long will your adaptations and protections last?”

    That doesn’t seem possible on natural population growth. Also education of women and prosperity lower and equalise birthrates.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  361. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    KIA

    Like I say often, there are three sides to every story – yours, mine and the truth. The latter is that which is least heard.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  362. Jeff83 (745 comments) says:

    Because BB you cant look beyond the Israelies being persecuted from the viewpoint of what happened in 1940s and the subsequent wars finishing with the Yom Kippur war, which in your mind justifies all actions the state of Israel currently inacts. I.e. you cannot see this from another view point (much like most of your views to be blunt).

    However I suggest if you were born into total poverty in the Gaza Strip, where there is no opportunities, and the ability to carry out regular trade is completely prohibitted by an ongoing inhumane blockade by Israel (and Eygpt), and your ancestors had lost everything by being kicked out of their lands due to decisions made by countries far away in regards to guilt by those countries for what had happened to a people your previous ancestors had actually welcomed to live in what your previous ancestors had hoped would become the free state of Palestine (which had also been promissed to you twice – by britian and in WW2 US as well). However this had been repaid in the 30s by terrorist actions by zionists trying to set up their own state (if you don’t know about that might want to expand your knowledge a little) and then later by having your state cut in half. Following contesting this (and lossing) your people were evicted and have since lived in an internment camp, for 60 years, where as opposed to things getting better they continuely get worse and worse.

    Considering how wound up you get about “pinkos” and the like I would suggest you would be pretty fucking angry, and thus I conclude you would be one of those you hate, and hardly a voice of reason or “moderate”.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  363. kiwi in america (2,511 comments) says:

    Luc
    The truth is in the land records. Show us its THEIR land.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  364. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Alan
    That’s absurd. Jews live in most secular states in the world without oppression or fear of oppression.

    Rubbish, as long as they keep their heads down and mouths shut they can be invisible, but over time as history shows they will be attacked.
    That’s why the setting up of Israel was correct and fair at the end of the WW2, sadly it didn’t include all of TransJordan as the League of Nations 1922 mandate called for.

    sod Winnie for that and the secular UN for everything since.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  365. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    KIA

    “pity they cant reign in Hamas’ death squads that they turned on Fatah becasue they were too accomodating of a real 2 state solution.”

    You mean this affair:

    After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.
    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804

    “Hamas’ price for modifying its charter is the right of return of refugees. “

    Hardly a price. It has already been demanded by UN Resolution 194 (article 11), the Fourth Geneva Protocol (article 49) or the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (articles 2, 7, 9 and, in particular, 17)

    “Demographically Israeli Jews would be swamped and then forced out by a soon to be Muslim majority”

    Y’mean like indigenous people in many post-colonial States. ‘Cept of course, in this case, the Pals are the indigenous people.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  366. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    LUC

    And why do you think Palestinians still stay in their camps? It’s because it is THEIR land, and they ain’t going anywhere! Otherwise, instead of using all those US dollars for arms, why doesn’t Israel pay Palestinians to emigrate elsewhere?

    And Mike, wtf? There is no repatriation involved here. Palestinians are largely the descendants of the original semitic inhabitants of the land. I say largely because the passing parade of conquerors has had an effect on the gene pool. But many villages (even ones extant to this day) can trace their history back to Roman times.

    You are such a revisionist because you want the destruction of Israel.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  367. Fletch (6,497 comments) says:

    Luc, if you look at history, in 1948 the UN formulated a partition plan for two states in Palestine – one Jewish, one Arab. If you look at the site HERE, you can see the map of how it would have been divided up evenly between both, with Jerusalem being under international administration. The Jews accepted this plan – the Arabs did not.

    The newly created United Nations approved the UN Partition Plan (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181) on November 29, 1947, dividing the country into two states, one Arab and one Jewish. Jerusalem was to be designated an international city – a corpus separatum – administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status. The Jewish community accepted the plan, but the Arab League and Arab Higher Committee rejected it. On December 1, 1947 the Arab Higher Committee proclaimed a 3-day strike, and Arab bands began attacking Jewish targets. Civil war began with the Jews initially on the defensive but gradually moving into offence. The Palestinian-Arab economy collapsed and 250,000 Palestinian-Arabs fled or were expelled.

    On May 14, 1948, the day before the end of the British Mandate, the Jewish Agency proclaimed independence, naming the country Israel. The following day five Arab countries – Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq –invaded Israel, launching the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Morocco, Sudan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia also sent troops to assist the invaders. After a year of fighting, a ceasefire was declared and temporary borders, known as the Green Line, were established. Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip. Israel was admitted as a member of the United Nations on May 11, 1949.

    I know nothing is simple, but the map looks pretty much split 50/50 to me. The Arabs rejected it and 5 countries attacked Israel with help of troops from four other countries. Israel won and the rest is history. Of course, these countries also attacked Israel in 1956, 1967 and 1973 and lost again, but they will keep on trying…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  368. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    KIA

    Now you are showing your true racism. It’s good to see it coming out at last. You conflate two separate issues: land bought by European Jews in the period you state, and land stolen by Israel beginning in 1947 by expelling, with terror tactics, in the so-called “War of Independence.” Actually, a conquest, ongoing to this day.

    Why don’t you do your own research, starting with http://www.palestineremembered.com/

    Then move to the UN: http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/home.htm

    And read the books listed on my blog, especially Tom Segev, One Palestine, Complete: and a new one, Shlomo Sand, How and Why the Jewish People was Invented.

    I advocate a fair settlement for all. Why don’t you?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  369. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “Rubbish, as long as they keep their heads down and mouths shut they can be invisible, but over time as history shows they will be attacked.”

    How can you be serious? In my lifetime the only criticisms of Jews I have ever heard all arose from aggressive actions by Israel. Racism towards other ethnicities is overwhelmingly more common.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  370. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Fletch, it seems you are saying that I say Israel shouldn’t exist. I don’t say that. I think it shouldn’t have happened, but it has. I refer you to my above post to KIA if you want to know more about what informs my views, but I fear it’s just too much reading for most – ignorance and prejudice is just easier, in general.

    1956 – Israel joined Britain and France in an attack on Egypt because Nasser committed the heinous sin of taking control of Egypt’s own resources – he nationalised the Suez Canal.

    1967 – Israel attacked Egypt. Read the history. Even Menachem Begin said that it was a war of choice for Israel. There is a school of thought that the army would have instituted a coup if the attack had not been undertaken.

    1973 – Israel was attacked because it refused a peace offer that included giving back Sinai to Egypt. But it gave it back eventually, anyway.

    Just a short history lesson.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  371. kiwi in america (2,511 comments) says:

    Here’s my research Luc. A world renown non Zionist historian who seems to be on Noam Chomskys Christmas card list plus on the ground reports from 1947/48 and then the memoirs of prominent Arab leaders. Sure beats your Palestinian propoganda all over your blog.

    1. As recently as 2008 Morris has stated: “Most of Palestine’s 700,000 ‘refugees’ fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders). But it is also true that there were several dozen sites, including Lydda and Ramala, from which Arab communities were expelled by Jewish troops” Morris was merely re-iterating a point he made in his earlier book: “The Arab evacuees from the towns and villages left largely because of Jewish attacks or fear of impending attack, and from a sense of vulnerability”. According to Morris, “expulsions were almost insignificant and many more left as a result of orders or advice from Arab military commanders and officials to safer areas within the country.”

    2. Sir John Troutbeck, a British diplomat in Cairo, went to Gaza on a fact-finding mission in June 1949 (near the end of the war). He reported that, while the Palestinian Arab refugees “express no bitterness against the Jews, they speak with the utmost bitterness of the Egyptians and other Arab states.’We know who our enemies are,’ they will say, and they are referring to their Arab brothers who, they declare, persuaded them unnecessarily to leave their homes.”
    In the case of the village of Ein Karem, William O. Douglas recorded that “the villagers were told by the Arab leaders to leave. It apparently was a strategy of mass evacuation, whether or not necessary as a military or public safety measure.” From eyewitness accounts, Douglas found that this, along with fear of Jewish attack, was a key reason for the exodus from Ein Karem.

    3. Morris also documented that the Arab Higher Committee ordered the evacuation of “several dozen villages, as well as the removal of dependents from dozens more in April-July 1948. The invading Arab armies also occasionally ordered whole villages to depart, so as not to be in their way.”

    4. A 3 May 1948 Time Magazine article states:
    “The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by orders of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city. More than pride and defiance was behind the Arab orders. By withdrawing Arab workers, their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa. Jewish leaders said wishfully: ‘They’ll be back in a few days. Already some are returning. ”One entire jetty,’ cabled TIME Correspondent Eric Gibbs, ‘was packed with these refugees, sitting on their pathetic bundles or clutching them with the strength of despair. What did these simple, bewildered people seize in the moment of panic? A small Turkish carpet, a radio, a sewing machine were among the treasures. Hour after hour they sat, waiting for barges, British landing craft and other odd boats now doing ferry service across the blue bay to Acre.’ Other thousands fled to the Arab-held hills near Nablus.”
    Evidence such as this led Samuel Katz to conclude in his book Battleground “that the Arab refugees were not driven from Palestine by anyone. The vast majority left, whether of their own free will or at the orders or exhortations of their leaders, always with the same reassurance-that their departure would help in the war against Israel”. He explains that “The Arabs are the only declared refugee group who became refugees not by the action of their enemies or because of well-grounded fear of their enemies, but by the initiative of their own leaders.”

    5. Former Prime Minister of Syria Khalid al-Azm recalled in his memoirs: “Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees to their country, while it is we who made them leave it. We brought disaster upon one million Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave their land, their homes, their work and their industry. We have rendered them dispossessed, unemployed, whilst every one of them had work or a trade by which he could gain his livelihood.” Remember that Syrian troops were part of the coalition of Arab nations fighting to defeat the Jewish state.
    After the war, a few Arab leaders tried to present the Palestinian exodus as a victory by claiming to have planned it. Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Said was later quoted as saying: “We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.”
    Contemporary Jordanian politician Anwar Nusseibeh believed that the fault for the exodus and military loss was with the Arab commanders: “the commanders of the local army thought in terms of the revolt against the British in the 1930s. The rebels had often retreated to the mountains, which made sense, as the British had not sought to take control of the country. But the Jews were fighting for complete domination, so the fighters had erred in withdrawing from the villages instead of defending them. He blamed himself as well. ‘I underestimated the strength of my own people,” he wrote. His central thesis, however, was that the Palestinian Arabs could have won the country had their leaders not sabotaged the war effort and known how to cooperate.

    6. The Arab National Committee of Haifa, the Arab leadership in Haifa in 1948, wrote and delivered a report on the flight of roughly 60,000 Arabs from Haifa. The report said, “The removal of the Arab inhabitants from the town was voluntary and carried out at our request.”

    7. “Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring, brotherly states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down,” wrote Habab Issa of Al-Hoda, the leading newspaper for Lebanese Maronites in the United States.

    8. A Muslim weekly newspaper in Beirut similarly reported, “Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leader? The Arab States, and Lebanon amongst them, did it!”

    9. Mahmoud Abbas, the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority, would later recall: “The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live.”

    Let me know if you want the footnotes to any of these.

    I supported Ehud Barak’s offer as did Clinton, the Saudis, the Egyptians and the rest of the moderate Muslim world would’ve followed suit.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  372. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    Loosing the debate? Call your opponent a racist.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  373. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    ^^^^^^ Intended for Luc – of course!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  374. Falafulu Fisi (2,179 comments) says:

    Krazy said…
    Loosing the debate? Call your opponent a racist.

    Be very careful there KK, Luc may turn up and say that you’re a member of the KKK NZ Branch.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  375. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Let’s not forget
    Jews to the number of Arab refugees were driven out from Arab countries between 1948 and 1970’s.
    Israel is 1% of the Middle East, whereas the Arab refugees have 99% of a similar/same culture to reabsorb into.
    The Jews did not and have that luxury.
    The secular UN set up one refugee organisation for “the Arabs (they weren’t Palestinians until 1967+) and another for the rest of the world.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  376. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    KIA

    I’ve seen it all before. I’m just not interested. Go away and do the reading I suggested, then come back at me.

    You are complicit in oppressing millions of people, one people, united by their land, not one religion, disparately settled. And those millions are mainly those who were not even born in 1948. I just don’t share your racism. Neither do I share the discrimination against a particular religion shown by you and posters above – isn’t that what Jews justly complain about?

    I actually don’t even wish that the Palestinians had won in 1948 because the fate for Jews would probably have been worse than that delivered to Arabs. But it’s irrelevant to today.

    The past is the past. I feel for kids growing up in a situation not of their making.

    Tell me this, you ask for recognition of Israel by Palestinians: does this mean you ask them to become committed Zionists? On land they tilled for thousands of years?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  377. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    kk, I would have called that tightening the debate?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  378. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    Losing the debate? Call your opponent a racist.

    This will be fun now that Fala has joined the debate. Watch Luc flail around unable to win the argument but unable to abuse Fala as a white racist.

    Fala
    My guess is he’ll eventually make some jibe about you getting back on the porch, or some such. Good luck!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  379. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Krazy

    One loses a game, not looses…loose nut!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  380. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Tom, Fala is white. That’s the point of his handle.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  381. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    kiwi in america the final solution ? ethnic cleansing ?
    Now the Palestinians are not going to go silently to the trains, nope, they will fight.
    Now how many hundreds of thousands of Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza will have to be killed to get the others to move ?
    A Greater Israel, a nice dream, but, when no other countries will trade with Israel how long will it last ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  382. kiwi in america (2,511 comments) says:

    “Im just not interested” …kind of says it all Luc. Fingers in ears ….Im not listening. Hate to have facts and history rain on the grievance parade huh. You’re complicit in a fraud. Israelis kept their promise to the 10% of Palestinian Arabs – let them worship their religion freely, have equal rights enabled them to vote such that they have their own Arab Party in the Knesset. Name me one Muslim dominated country that offers the same to their Jewish minority? Let me help you in case you’re “not interested” – NONE!

    To answer your question you need only look at what the Israelis actually did to the Arabs in their borders.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  383. kiwi in america (2,511 comments) says:

    Grumpy
    Jordan and Egypt made peace with Israel – so can the Palestinians. Read what I wrote earlier – I supported Ehud Barak’s 2000 offer made to Arafat – that was 97% of the land they wanted plus $30 billion in compensation for refugees.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  384. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I don’t agree with grumpyoldhori’s post, just so you guys(where are the ladies?) know.

    Jews fought in the ghettoes, and got slaughtered. If I was a father then, I would be doing my best to prolong my wife’s and kids lives. It was an incredibly difficult situation that does not warrant that kind of comment.

    Anyway, it’s good to see the siege on the forefront of the news again. Well done Free Gaza!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  385. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    guys, thunks for hilping me with my spulling

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  386. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    KIA

    Propaganda is not history. Most of the sources I quote are Israeli sources. Palestinians in Israel complain vigorously of racism. They are 20% of the population confined to (from memory) 3% of the land. And they are continually evicted from their homes on the legal grounds that they don’t have a permit, but permits generally aren’t granted. It’s another form of ethnic cleansing.

    And you prove my point by demonising Islam. You have got to get over racism and Islamophobia.

    Allowing an Arab Party in the Knesset is what we did over here by giving Maori four seats – throw the dog a bone! Powerless but, hey, aren’t we so good!

    Your only offer for peace is total capitulation by Palestinians, who will be condemned to eking out a living on 10% of historic Palestine while across the road European interlopers live in obscene luxury. I tell you, it just won’t work. Ask a white South African!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  387. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Israelis kept their promise to the 10% of Palestinian Arabs – let them worship their religion freely, have equal rights enabled them to vote such that they have their own Arab Party in the Knesset.
    Name me one Muslim dominated country that offers the same to their Jewish minority?

    well LUC, grumpy and Alan?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  388. Fletch (6,497 comments) says:

    LUC, you have blinkers on regarding the past. Israel has never been the aggressor unless it was provoked.

    re: the Six Day War –

    Although Israel fired the first shots, virtually everyone recognizes that
    Egypt, Syria, and Jordan started the war. The illegal Egyptian decision to

    close the Straits of Tiran by military force was recognized by the inter-national community to be an act of war. As Egyptian president Nasser himself boasted, “We knew the closing of the Gulf of Aqaba meant war with Israel . . . the objective will be Israel’s destruction.”2 The Egyptian commander of Sharm al-Shekh, the point of entry to the straits from which the Egyptians warned they would shoot at any Israeli ship that tried to pass through on the way to or from Eilat, acknowledged that “the clos¬ing of the straits was a declaration of war.”3 However, according to Nasser, the war was not to be over the Straits of Tiran but over Israel’s “exis¬tence.”4 Nor was Israel’s surrender contemplated. This, like the 1948 war, was planned to be a war of extermination.
    Damascus Radio incited its listeners: “Arab masses, this is your day. Rush to the battlefield. . . . Let them know that we shall hang the last imperialist soldier with the entrails of the last Zionist.”5 Hafiz al-Assad ordered his Syrian soldiers to “strike the enemy’s [civilian] settlements, turn them into dust, pave the Arab roads with the skulls of Jews. Strike them without mercy.”6 He characterized the forthcoming attack on Israel as “a battle of annihilation.” The Voices of the Arabs in Cairo exhorted its listeners with similar incitements to see that “Israel is liqui¬dated.”7 The prime minister of Iraq predicted, “There will be practically no Jewish survivors.”8 Cairo was filled with anti-Semitic posters “showing Arab soldiers shooting, crushing, mangling, and dismembering bearded, hook-nosed Jews.”9

    As Prime Minister Levi Eshkol told his cabinet on May 21, 1967, “The Egyptians plan to close the straits or to bomb the atomic reac¬tor in Dimona. A general attack will follow. A war would ensue in which the first five minutes will be decisive. The question is who will attack the other’s airfields first.”11 After exhausting all diplomatic options12 and learning that Egypt was preparing an imminent attack and had flown sur-veillance flights over Israeli territory, the Israeli air force attacked Egyptian, Syrian, and Iraqi military airfields on the morning of June 5, 1967. Would any reasonable nation faced with comparable threats of annihilation have acted differently?

    KIA is correct about the Camp David deal.

    See an article from The New Yorker by Elsa Walsh called “The Prince” (download PDF) in which she interviews the (then) Saudi Arabian Ambassador to the United States, Prince Bandar bin Sultan. He was there at the Camp David negotiations and tells exactly what happened. He was shocked when the deal (a state with its capital in Jerusalem, control over the Temple Mount, a return of approximately 95 percent of the West Bank and all of the Gaza Strip, and a $30 billion compensation package for the 1948 refugees) didn’t go through.

    Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia, who was serving as an intermediary among the parties, urged Arafat to “take this deal.” Could you ever get “a better deal”? he asked. Would you rather negotiate with Sharon? As Arafat vacillated, Bandar issued a stern warning: “I hope you remember, sir, what I told you. If we lose this opportunity, it is going to be a crime.”9

    He did, and it was.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  389. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “Name me one Muslim dominated country that offers the same to their Jewish minority?”

    Which is why I nominate Israel rather than Jordan as the basis for a multi-cultural nation.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  390. grumpyoldhori (2,362 comments) says:

    MikeNZ Unlike you I believe the whole of the middle east to be the arsehole of the world.
    Now pointing fingers and saying that other countries treat their minorities worse than what Israel treats theirs is an idiotic measure.

    Total equality ? so why was a young Israeli Arab not allowed to even take the tests to become a IDF fighter pilot ?

    Turkey, war with Israel, being American and not a kiwi you will have no knowledge just how good the Turks can be.
    Turkey is the last country Israel will want a scrap with.
    You need to read some NZ history concerning Gallipoli.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  391. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    “everyone recognizes that
    Egypt, Syria, and Jordan started the war.”

    Not this guy:

    General Mattityahu Peled, a member of Israel’s general staff in 1967, opined that “the thesis according to which the danger of genocide weighed on us in June 1967, and that Israel struggled for its physical existence is only a bluff born and developed after the war.” (Le Monde, June 3, 1972, p. 4.)

    …and this fellow:

    Menachem Begin, not yet prime minister but a member of the Israeli cabinet, allowed that: “The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.” (“Excerpts from Begin Speech at National Defense College,” The New York Times, August 11, 1982, p. A6.)

    The closing of the Straits of Tiran is another canard. Less than 5% of Israel’s trade went through there and Nasser immediately offered the situation to the U.N. for mediation. In the event, he never enforced the closure.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  392. kiwi in america (2,511 comments) says:

    Spoff
    Your quotes need to be balanced by the following:
    Damascus radio incited its listeners “Arab masses this is your day rush to the battlefield. Let them know we shall hang the last imperialist soldier with the entrails of the last Zionist”. President Assad of Syria ordered his troops to “strike the enemies civilian settlements and turn them into dust, pave the roads with the skulls of Jews – strike them without mercy” and described the coming battle as one of annihilation.

    The then Iraqi Prime Minister Abd ar-Rahman Arif predicted “There will be practically no Jewish survivors”.

    Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkol told his Cabinet on 21st May 1967 “The Egyptians plan to close the straits or bomb the atomic reactor in Dimona. A general attack will follow; a war will follow in which the first 5 minutes will be decisive. The question is who will attack the other’s airfield’s first”

    You down play the real blockade effect of the Egyptians closing the Straits of Tiran. This belies the fact that 90% of Israel’s oil came through this route as the Gulf of Aquaba branches off from the Red Sea. Had the blockade been maintained, oil supplies to Israel would’ve had to be routed all the way around the Cape of Good Hope in Africa as the Egyptians controlled the Suez Canal as well. Israel’s economy and industry would’ve ground to a halt.

    The closure of the Straits of Tiran was recognized by the international community as an act of war – any sea blockade is considered universally to be a casus belli for war. Muhammed Abd Hafiz, the paratrooper commander at Sharm al-Sheikh said “Of course the closing of the Straits was a declaration of war” and prominent Israeli academic Michael Oren cites four different original sources as independent support for the quote. As quoted in Harb Haziran by Mustafa; Nasser himself boasted to a visiting delegation of Arab trade unionists “We knew the closing of the Gulf of Aqaba meant a war with Israel…if war comes it will be total and the objective will be Israel’s destruction”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  393. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “any sea blockade is considered universally to be a casus belli for war.”

    A tad ironic in these circumstances, don’t you think?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  394. Falafulu Fisi (2,179 comments) says:

    Luc, come and join the Auckland bloggers drinks tonight at Galbraith.

    I do occasionally attend it, including other regulars & bloggers such as Not PC, Whale Oil, MandM and others.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  395. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Alan
    Not ironic at all as Israel considers herself at war.
    In the end all that you and others have said and done indicates the cessation of the sovereign state of Israel.
    That’s why she was completely justified in taking actions as she sees fit to protect her populace and that includes a blockade.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  396. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Spoff
    Intentions not certainties, decision based on the History.

    pre-emtive was the only decision, then and now.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  397. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Thanks for the lesson Grumpy.

    tell it to the Armenians.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  398. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    Nice try KIA but you already put that earlier and Spoff can presumably read.

    Like Luc he does not want to listen unless the answer is one of two things.

    First, that the Jews are entirely at fault in the past – in which case their failure to repent can be added to the condemnations.

    Second, that the Jews are equally at fault, so that no further judgement need be rendered beyond <a plague on both your houses and the usual focus can be made on the Jews to live up to their standards as a Westernised democracy with a free press – while the other side is politely requested, via rote demands with no conviction, to behave better. After all, by protesting to Israel via the media, governments and NGOs, the Spoffs of this world at least have some hope of convincing them to change their behaviour. What point is there protesting against Hamas.

    It’s kind of a compliment to Israeli actually, even if it effectively aids Hams and Herzbollah in their aims and is two-faced. Speaking of which:

    “Hamas has accepted Israel’s right to exist and would be prepared to nullify its charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel, Aziz Dwaik, Hamas’s most senior representative in the West Bank, said on Wednesday.”

    So there’s no risk that there are two conversations here from Hamas – one to foreign audiences, a different one to domestic – all as part of the essential media component of assymetric warfare? Yasar’s approach was an exception right?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  399. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    “That’s why she was completely justified in taking actions as she sees fit to protect her populace”

    Nope. There was no clear and immediate danger. Her actions were ill-judged, ultimately disproportionate and counter-productive.

    However the main issue is the future and to “all that you and others have said and done indicates the cessation of the sovereign state of Israel” I again disagree. The sovereign state of Israel will not survive continuing its present course. In order to survive it will have to co-opt Palestinian support along the lines we have discussed.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  400. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    Alan

    It’s an idea that has merit in theory, but the reality of what Israel has tried to do politically with it’s indigenous Arab population shows what is likely to happen in practice should a single-state solution be followed:

    There are important matters of context missing from Beinart’s critique. He condemns the hostility some Israeli Jews have expressed toward Israeli Arabs without so much as mentioning the rise in radicalism among Israeli Arabs, to the point today where many of their political leaders — including members of the Knesset — have openly sided with Hamas and Hezbollah, lauded the Iranian nuclear program, supported the destruction of Israel, and participated in all manner of delegitimization and anti-Semitic incitement.

    These are citizens of Israel: imagine if Muslims who had been elected to the U.S. Congress were engaged in similar endorsements of America’s enemies.

    There’s an embedded example in the original article – here it is – you can read about how Ms Hanin Zoabi (Balad), a newly sworn-in Knesset Member, welcomes the development of Iranian nuclear weapons.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  401. TimG_Oz (865 comments) says:

    Hey are we quoting 6 day war quotes? Here’s a beauty from Ahmed Shukairy – the “Palestinian” (he was really Egyptian) PLO Leader.

    After a swift Arab victory, all Jews not born in Israel would be sent back to where they came from. Any survivors that were born there, would be allowed to stay.

    “I estimate however, that none will survive”

    So clearly, there was an Arab invasion planned, and that they planned to annhilate Jews. Anyone prepared to comment against?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  402. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    tom, the awful, continuing tensions and confrontations with Palestine are surely a major spur to such views?

    I realise that the path is neither easy nor risk-free but I believe it is inevitable to avoid catastrophe.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  403. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    Notice also how involvement in Government has moderated the Maori Party in New Zealand.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  404. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    “moderated the Maori Party”, Alan? It’s bloody neutered it. I largely agree with you on the Israel/Hamas issue, but not sure this is a good analogy.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  405. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    toad, I think it’s a very good analogy. Very much better to have the Palestinians inside Israel’s tent pissing out than outside pissing in. Getting there needs some very smart leaders though.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  406. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    In order to survive it will have to co-opt Palestinian support along the lines we have discussed

    So how do they reconcile their religious incompatibility? The Koran is pretty clear on Islam’s treatment of Jews and Christians: “The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them.” Koran 9:30 and “Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them.” Koran 47:4.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  407. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    Can any of the assorted “Israel can do no wrong” wingnuts here answer this?

    If the purpose of the blockade is to stop arms from getting to Hamas, why are the following items on the list that Israel prohibits from going into Gaza?

    sage
    cardamom
    cumin
    coriander
    ginger
    jam
    halva
    vinegar
    nutmeg
    chocolate
    fruit preserves
    seeds and nuts
    biscuits and sweets
    potato chips
    gas for soft drinks
    dried fruit
    fresh meat
    plaster
    tar
    wood for construction
    cement
    iron
    glucose
    industrial salt
    plastic/glass/metal containers
    industrial margarine
    tarpaulin sheets for huts
    fabric (for clothing)
    flavor and smell enhancers
    fishing rods
    various fishing nets
    buoys
    ropes for fishing
    nylon nets for greenhouses
    hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries
    spare parts for tractors
    dairies for cowsheds
    irrigation pipe systems
    ropes to tie greenhouses
    planters for saplings
    heaters for chicken farms
    musical instruments
    size A4 paper
    writing implements
    notebooks
    newspapers
    toys
    razors
    sewing machines and spare parts
    heaters
    horses
    donkeys
    goats
    cattle
    chicks

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  408. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    Notice also how involvement in Government has moderated the Maori Party in New Zealand.

    If that’s what you think about our homegrown situtation then there would seem little point in me continuing to debate your idea for Israel.

    I do not wish to sidetrack this thread but I think that the creation of a race-based political party has marked a gigantic step backwards for NZ society. As a New Zealander I am embarrassed by this development.

    As far as race relations are concerned they seem worse now than when I was a kid, with less interaction between Maori and Pakeha, less mutual understanding, more angry words and actions, more condemnation, more guilt, less celebration of ourselves as New Zealanders.

    Seriously – how many Pakeha can honestly say they rejoice in Waitangi Day after growing up through 30+ years of being told that it’s a disgusting celebration of imperialistic racism. When one hears repeatedly how awful it is, how guilty people should feel and how the day should be used to recall past sins. It’s become a day of atonement that many greet with nothing but a resigned shrug.

    Moreover, it seems to me that it was our artistic, media and political classes that gloried in this deconstruction for 30 years, and only now – perhaps in belated recognition that they may have gone too far – do they appear to be straining earnestly to try and put a gloss back on being a New Zealander. Too late I think.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  409. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    kk, all religions would have to accept civil and constitutional law enforcing tolerance of other religious faiths and equal protection for all citizens. Failure to accept such law by any individual would be grounds for refusal of entry and/or deportation.

    There are plenty of ridiculous (and often contradictory) passages in the Bible. That does not prevent Christians from living in harmony with others and obeying civil laws. Neither should the Koran prevent moderate Muslims living peaceably in modern democracies as indeed the majority do.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  410. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    And this one… also for those who think peaceful co-existence is workable: “Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax.” Koran 9:29 .

    Alan, this hatred and intolerance is preached as a message of the state to the Muslim faithful every day. If you believe a agreeable diplomatic settlement is possible, let alone sufficient to usher in peace then you’re not thinking on the level IMO.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  411. Jeremy Harris (319 comments) says:

    Israel: 6 million people in a sovereign nation, surrounded by 200 million people who think killing every last Israeli is a mission from God…

    A lot of it is jealousy driven, Israel has taken a tiny strip of desert and produced agriculture, electricity, roads, schools, hospitals and a functioning democracy, they have done this starting with nothing and under the constant threat of war or genocide…

    Israel’s actions over the last two years have been poor but they are a sovereign nation and are free to take the action they think is required for self defence… and reap the consequences…

    A little perspective is required, if NZ was plonked down in the same place, I’m not too sure we wouldn’t act much different…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  412. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    tom, while I also dislike the concept of a race-based party I would choose that in preference to a continuance of the Maori seats.

    And I believe Turia and Sharples have overall done very well. I actually live within sight of Waitangi – I can see it from my window now. Waitangi day is recovering from its bad history and for the last couple of years has been up here a good family day. I think Key, Turia and Sharples can take credit for that.

    Welfare has been the downfall of many Maori. Converting them to working with a conservative government hopefully is a process that can wean them off it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  413. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    @Jeremy Harris – Completely agree.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  414. Its da truth (12 comments) says:

    So 200 million people think killing Israelis is their mission because they are jealous of Israel??? What planet are you one? They are constantly building on land that is not theirs, they steal other countries passports to assinate people they don’t like, they blockade aid from getting to the Palestinians, shooting people in the process in international waters, and you think a little persective is needed from Nzers against this sort of behaviour. I believe the Palestinians are under more threat of genocide than Israel with it’s US backing, and NZ backing judging from John Key’s wet fish telling off.

    After reading a few pro Israeli sites on Facebook I have been absolutely shocked at the mentality of many of the supporters. I was called an Anti semite and threatened with violence when I dared to suggest that maybe shooting aid workers in international waters wasn’t the best look for Israel. It seems many Israelis and Jews are so entrenched they can no longer look at things objectively.

    The irony is this arrogant self belief in one’s superiority and right to do as one pleases has had tragic historical consequences before.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  415. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    From Toad’s link:

    The following list is approximate and partial, and it changes from time to time.

    It is based on information from Palestinian traders and businesspersons, international organizations, and the Palestinian Coordination Committee, all of whom “deduce” what is permitted and what is banned based on their experience requesting permission to bring goods into Gaza and the
    answers they receive from the Israeli authorities (approved or denied).

    It is not possible to verify this list with the Israeli authorities because they refuse to disclose information regarding the restrictions on transferring goods into Gaza.

    It should be noted that Israel permits some of the “prohibited” items into Gaza (for example: paper, biscuits, and chocolate), on the condition that they are for the use of international organizations, while requests from private merchants
    to purchase them are denied.

    Yes, let’s frame a debate with a starting list that could have been described in fewer words – we pulled this out of our bums

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  416. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    toad (2240) Says:
    June 2nd, 2010 at 3:16 pm
    [list of stuff not allowed through]
    .
    .
    chicks

    Whoah, that’s over the line. No chicks allowed to go to Gaza?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  417. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    @Its da truth – “They are constantly building on land that is not theirs”
    Well, that not quite the truth and I suspect you know it. Yes some land wasn’t part of the pre ’67 territory, being acquired as the spoils of war. I suggest you read all of kiwi in america’s comments in this thread to learn more about the land issue. He has a very good handle on this matter.

    I agree the 200 million don’t have it in for Israel because they’re jealous. Their religious texts and almost daily teachings from leaders of their state religion tell them to “Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax. Koran 9:29 “. That seem to be an unambiguous directive to me. No need of jealousy as a motivation.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  418. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    Stuart Mackey you have to be joking, Israel nukes Iran, Russia decides that Israel is acting like a mad dog and nukes Israel.
    Do you really believe that the USA would take all of Russia’s cities out knowing that Russia will do the same to it
    ****************************************

    Yes, which is why they will not. This is the great paradox of nuclear weapons and why the there is a ‘hotline’ between nuclear armed states, this is how modern deterrence works and why ww3 has never broken out, the consequences for everyone is just to great to start that ball rolling.
    One question I have noticed that has not been asked, especially by the political left and the media, is what happens if we all succeed in banning the bomb?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  419. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Israel is an affront to Islam and that trumps Alan and any other do gooder who thinks we can work it out amongst ourselves, all us nice peaceable people. Rubbish – their heart intention is the destruction of Israel.
    That’s violence and murder even with a smaile on their faces and it didn’t matter what they had on board, it’s the principle.
    As for refusing entry or deportation – what do you think happens now?

    Alan
    Nope. There was no clear and immediate danger. Her actions were ill-judged, ultimately disproportionate and counter-productive.

    Rubbish, they are a sovereign state fighting for the protection of their people.
    In Good old NZ if a policeman says stop to you here, you stop, if you don’t they get more police, if you don’t they get the army.
    This went long past police long before 10,000 rockets in a year and pstds for pre-primary kids.

    I don’t think this was disproportionate at all. next time they should shoot across the bow and if they don’t stop, sink the vessels, stuff the boarding and putting themselves at risk.
    It’s what China or Russia would do if they did the same there and refused to stop, so why not Israel.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  420. Jeremy Harris (319 comments) says:

    @It’s da truth: Many people in those surrounding states (as well as many Israelis) think they are in a cosmic battle between good and evil and the other side is evil, religion and yes jealousy is a part of it…

    The Israelis have taken a stretch of desert the size of Northland and produced enough food that they are now exporting some, they have built a 18,000 km road network and a rail network soon to have High Speed Rail, they are leaders in geo-thermal energy, leaders in space technology, they have 8 top universities, they have some of the highest life expectancies and literacy rates in the world… What do the surrounding countries have..? Well they either have no economy or they have a petroleum economy the US built for them and they nationalised, so yeah they are jealous…

    To be honest given our resources and benign environment if NZers had half the self reliance, pride and entrepreneurism (sp?) that Israelis have we’d be the richest nation on earth…

    With that said, my personal opinion is Israel has gone too far over the last couple of years and it seems the international community is panning them, as is right, but it is up to Israel as a sovereign nation to ascertain whether they want to keep on taking the same hard line and as I said reap the consequences…

    But if I have to pick a “right side” I pick Israel because:

    – They haven’t elected a government whose express aim is to destroy the Palestinians
    – They have elected a government that has the interests of it’s people (including self defence) in mind and seeks to be a productive country in the western world
    – I like living in the first world and Israel has produced 5 nobel prize winners since 2002 and when I sit down to watch the Football World Cup over the next month I know it is being beamed here on an Israeli built satellite

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  421. Its da truth (12 comments) says:

    Well Jeremy, your idea of self defence and mine obviously differ greatly. I do think too that the Palestinians’ election of their govt may also have been in reaction to some pretty heavy handed ‘self defence’ on the part of the Israelis around that time. Also, the Palestinian land owners who have had their farm land taken by the Israelis would also like to be able to farm it and make it productive but with an AK 47 in your face it’s best to back away.

    Those Nobel prize winners are the result of universities that have not been bombed out. I don’t doubt that there are plenty of Palestinians who would love to have a good education. Painting them all as being consumed with a ‘cosmic battle’ is ignorant and patronising.

    A stretch of land the size of Northland is a big deal in that region. If it weren’t the Israelis wouldn’t be so keen to hang onto it and settle it as quickly as possible. It is also the principle of the matter that it was not theirs and we all know that. It seems principles are not of concern any more. It’s who has the cash and the power, as you say ‘being the richest nation’. ‘Richest’. I think you and I might have a difference of opinion over the definition of that word.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  422. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    @Its da truth – Have a read of this analysis from virtualmark: Are Palestinians self-destructive?. Plenty of facts and well reasoned I thought.

    As for the ‘cosmic battle’ comment, I have a simple question for you.. in two parts: Do Islamic holy texts call for all Jews to be killed, and if so, do the activities of the Palestinians in the last 40 years look to be answering that call?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  423. davidp (3,588 comments) says:

    IDT>It is also the principle of the matter that it was not theirs and we all know that.

    Israel was formed on bits of the old Ottoman Empire that had a Jewish majority. Israelis have the same rights to self determination as any other people… their neighbours don’t get to decide whether their country exists or not.

    To take a similar situation… If the bits of the UK with a Scottish majority decided to break away from the rest of the UK and call themselves, say, Scotland then they have the right to do that. It would not be acceptable for the English and the Welsh to invade Scotland, lose, then spend the next 60 years shooting rockets in to Scotland and blowing themselves up in Scottish shops, restaurants, and buses. If they did then it would be quite acceptable for the Scottish government to take steps to restrict the supply of rockets and explosives to the English until they’d decided to behave like civilised people instead of religious Scot-hating psychopaths.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  424. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    IDT learn some history.

    Jews have lived continuously in the area for close to 4 thousand plus years.

    When larger numbers started to migrate back in the 19th century they BROUGHT land off the absent Arab landowners. The land they were sold was either desert or swamp. There was also bugger all Arabs around as the land produced no food. The Israel you see today with its date palms and factories has all been produced out of nothing through Jewish sweat.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  425. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    Southern Raider 6:50 pm

    It is you who needs to earn some history. Jews have lived continuously in the area for close to 4 thousand plus years. That is the bit you are correct about.

    But some of them converted to Islam. And some of them to Christianity. Both of those religions are relatively recent in history – long after Judaism.

    At the end of the day, religion is supersticious crap that is used to justify oppression.

    Why can’t Jews and Muslims share a homeland in Israel/Palestine? After all, they are both Semite peoples, and both have a legitimate historical claim to Palestine/Israel as their homeland.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  426. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    The deluded left. If Muslims got a majority in Israeli parliment how long do you think it would take for all the Jews to be expelled?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  427. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    And what legitimate claim do Arabs have to Palestine.

    Please identify any of the following
    – Arab currency from the area
    – Arab capital city from the area
    – Arab king from the area

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  428. big bruv (14,165 comments) says:

    Toad

    “At the end of the day, religion is supersticious crap that is used to justify oppression.”

    You are of course right Toad, however, the Greens as a movement are using the very same tactics to oppress millions of people all over the world, if you substitute religion (and the scaremongering that implies) for the words “climate change” then I think you will agree that you are no better than religion.

    Neither religion or climate change are based on fact, both have their origins in a bunch of loose data massaged in such a manner so as to end up supporting the original beliefs of those behind both of these cons.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  429. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    SR: ” If Muslims got a majority in Israeli parliment how long do you think it would take for all the Jews to be expelled?”

    Since the Jews have a substantial majority it isn’t going to happen. They will have control over the population, the law and the electoral system for as long as they wish to maintain it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  430. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Alan get a reality check. Arabs have an AVERAGE birthrate of over 8. If there was a single state they would make up about at least 1/3 of the population on day one and within 10 years or so would be the majority.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  431. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Southern
    Alan doesn’t mean what he’s saying, he’s winding you up.
    He’s not on smoke like Philu, he knows what he proposes is crap and fully understands the truth of Islam.
    he’s pulling your wire mate.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  432. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Also love how Toad and co denigrate religion and yet Socialism has killed more people in the last 100 years (the supposed civilised age) as religion probably has for the last 1,000.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  433. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    @Southern Raider 8:28 pm

    Arabs have an AVERAGE birthrate of over 8.

    Dunno where you got your statistics from (no link provided), but if they are correct, I would agree that they are lining in one part of the world whose potential population far exceeds the carrying capacity of the land.

    Mind you, I guess you would have big families if you expected half of your kids to be wiped out by diseases of poverty or in military confrontations.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  434. Its da truth (12 comments) says:

    Krazykiwi, read your link and I’m not convinced, especially of anyone who quotes Wikipedia as their source of facts. Well reasoned? I think it just fits with your point of view. It’s all about what Palestine have done and that’s where I struggle in this debate. Yes they have made some stupid moves but Israel should also be accountable for their actions. I too could write up a list of actions that Israel has taken to show them as murderously agressive, arrogant and completely dismissive of international law.
    I’m sure Islamic texts call for Jews to be killed but I know there’s some seriously twisted, gun toting Israelis posting anti Muslim sentiments that talk about Jews being the ‘apple of God’s eye’ and everyone else being lesser beings. That does not endear me to them and sounds like another nasty historical figure.
    The debating over who has historical claim to these lands is a non issue really now. It is what it is.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  435. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    kk, all religions would have to accept civil and constitutional law enforcing tolerance of other religious faiths and equal protection for all citizens. Failure to accept such law by any individual would be grounds for refusal of entry and/or deportation.

    The problem – the key problem with Islam in fact, beyond any of the nasty stuff quoted from the Koran – is that Islam at its core is as much a political project as a theological one. It never has had a render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s…. moment.

    One does not simply take guidance from it – it’s the blueprint for how a society is to be run from top to bottom. As a result, while it’s had schisms, it’s never really had a Reformation and it sure as hell has not given birth to an Era of Enlightenment in the last thousand years.

    There are Islamic theologists who are attempting to carve out separate spheres for religion and government – notably Sistani in Iraq – but we’re a long way from Islam accepting that it does not have the primary role in all civil institutions and that its word is not law.

    About the only Muslim nation in the world where that has truly occurred has been in Turkey. But that was at the point of Army rifles, with the will of Ataturk behind them, and it is now a society where that control is fading and Islam is re-emerging, which suggests that the ‘moderate’ aspects of it were never innate.

    The fact that there are millions of faithful Muslims in the West who accept the separation of church and state, the fact that millions of Muslims have fled to the West precisely to escape the stultifying effects their religion has had on their home societies – neither means much, given the small proportion of the West that they comprise.

    If and when Muslims do constitute a majority (or at least a large minority) in any society it’s an open question as to whether such people would be willing or able to push back against fellow believers who insist on inserting Islam into civil institutions and every aspect of society as the Prophet intended. Without a Reformation, those who oppose such believers are apostates, and with that label upon them they will be forced into silence or leaving the religion.

    That’s what Israel faces were it to follow the Single State solution.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  436. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    let them worship their religion freely, have equal rights enabled them to vote such that they have their own Arab Party in the Knesset. Name me one Muslim dominated country that offers the same to their Jewish minority? Let me help you in case you’re “not interested” – NONE!

    Well, there’s … Iran, where Judaism has the status of a “recognised minority religion” and the country’s small Jewish community is guaranteed representation in the Parliament. Funny old world.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  437. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    There are Islamic theologists who are attempting to carve out separate spheres for religion and government – notably Sistani in Iraq – but we’re a long way from Islam accepting that it does not have the primary role in all civil institutions and that its word is not law.

    About the only Muslim nation in the world where that has truly occurred has been in Turkey.

    Nonsense. Complete goddamn pull-it-out of-your-ass nonsense.

    Indonesia’s 228 million population is 86% Muslim. It’s a secular presidential republic, with no state religion.

    Bangladesh, 89% Muslim, is a secular Parliamentary democracy.

    In Nigeria, where more than half the 150m population is Muslim, the constitution proclaims: “The Government of the Federation or of any State shall not adopt any religion as State Religion.”

    In Europe, Bosnia, Albania, and Kosovo have majority Muslim populations and don’t answer your description either. At all. Uzbekistan, 88% Muslim, is a secular state. I could go on.

    It just staggers me the way people in this thread are prepared to simply make shit up to try and rationalise their irrational feelings.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  438. Jeremy Harris (319 comments) says:

    @It’s da truth: Reading comprehension please…

    I didn’t say “all” were consumed with the battle, I said “many”… Not patronising, look at the religous numbers in each country – a fact…

    I didn’t say that Israel was right due to them “being the richest nation” I said if we had Israeli attitudes to self reliance, education, productivity, etc NZ would be the richest nation on earth…

    My definition of self defence is doing what you have to do to protect yourself from neighbouring countries which have tried to wipe you out no less than 6 times in the last 60 years… They are free to take whatever action they think is needed and reap the international derision…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  439. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    …and the country’s small Jewish community is guaranteed representation in the Parliament

    The representation of the 20-25,000 Jews living in Iran is Ciamak Moresadegh – he’s the only one of course.

    Some interesting quotes here from an article by Iranian journalist Parvaneh Vahidmanesh

    Most Shia regard Jews as ritually unclean so Jews are unable to sell food
    ……..
    The government has also funded the production of countless anti-Semitic and anti-Israeli films and TV series.
    ……
    Over the years, some felt so threatened that they chose to convert to Islam, but continued to practice Judaism in secret – becoming so-called crypto-Jews.
    …….
    Through such conversions, Jews were able to get different jobs, interact, trade and live more freely.
    Nevertheless, traditional Iranian society tends to look down on such converts.
    …….

    Yep – sounds just like the life of Arabs in Israel.

    I guess the above is why the largest population of Persian Jews is found in …… Israel.

    Still, it’s the words that count: next up Russell Brown explains Kabuki Theatre and that the Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea is a Republic, for People, and has elections.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  440. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    make shit up do we Russel!

    Unlike you who does, we happen to tell it like it is.
    Just because you already think like a Dhimmi or a leftist which seems to be the same right now.

    So you’ve read extensive accounts of what life is like for non Muslims in Muslim dominated areas where?
    I’d introduce you to some people who can tell you first hand if I thought it would do any good, but your rosy Dhimmi attitude mitigates against that sadly.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  441. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    The representation of the 20-25,000 Jews living in Iran is Ciamak Moresadegh – he’s the only one of course.

    I know. And I’m not saying the ultimate leaders of Iran are other than religious thugs. But the claim was that no Muslim country allowed Jews to participate in the political process.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  442. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    make shit up do we Russel!

    Unlike you who does, we happen to tell it like it is.
    Just because you already think like a Dhimmi or a leftist which seems to be the same right now.

    Unfortunately, the claims made were plainly and demonstrably untrue. Please tell me which of the states I named, including Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world, are not secular states.

    So you’ve read extensive accounts of what life is like for non Muslims in Muslim dominated areas where?
    I’d introduce you to some people who can tell you first hand if I thought it would do any good, but your rosy Dhimmi attitude mitigates against that sadly.

    I realise I’m not likely to convince you with anything as modest as facts, but I felt I had to point out a reality or two. Sorry about that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  443. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    @Russell Brown 12:19 am

    It just staggers me the way people in this thread are prepared to simply make shit up…

    You obviously don’t come here that often, Russell. There is a wingnut contingent here who make shit up all the time. Just mention Islam or climate change (their two favourite topics, for some reason) and they all emerge and start making shit up. Their world view is all about belief – evidence doesn’t seem to come into it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  444. TimG_Oz (865 comments) says:

    toad – nobody here is making up the fact that the Green Party of New Zealand support Hamas.

    Nobody is making up the fact that Hamas is murdering people, and have a racist Charter.

    Nobody is making up the fact that the Greens are biased in their response.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  445. Graeme Edgeler (3,290 comments) says:

    toad – nobody here is making up the fact that the Green Party of New Zealand support Hamas.

    And the Green Party were making up that Saudi Arabia does not even recognise human rights and has no constitution.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  446. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Toad et al
    You deliberately ignore the truth of the fact that since 1948 Israel has fought for her existence in all forums including militarily, both from direct enemies around her and enemies like you and (people like you) at the UN/EU who aid and abet them in their endeavours.

    You know full well that the aim of the Arab/Islamist nations is to drive the Jews into the sea as the existence of Israel is an affront to Islam and it’s prophet Mohammad.

    Today Israel is in an asymmetrical war on all fronts and forums.
    In one the media and public perception, you are involved in actively, against her and her Jewish & Christian citizens.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  447. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    Unfortunately, the claims made were plainly and demonstrably untrue. Please tell me which of the states I named, including Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world, are not secular states.

    If you could remove the patella reflex from your glass jaw and actually read all that I wrote, you would see that I made two claims.
    The first was that Islam has not had any internal theological development that positively acknowledges a separation of church and state, making it compatible with secular, liberal democracy.

    The second was that those states that have a majority muslim population and appear to be secular are like Turkey – secularisation and the separation of church and state at the point of a gun over many decades – Islam has not been moderated, it has been suppressed.

    With the exception of Bangladesh I don’t see anything in your examples where the Turkey comparison could not be made. Building a secular society actually requires thought – rather than just slapping a happy face sticker on parts of the globe – I’m not confident the Left is capable of the former any longer, particularly in relation to the Islamic religion.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  448. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Tom
    I have friends who live and work in Bangladesh and believe me the grief the non-Muslims and especially Christian people have there is palpable.
    In all the little things in the discourse of life with the local and national government it would be so much easier to be Muslim.
    A typical out working of Dhimmitude.
    Even if it is secular as you might allow the daily reality mitigates against giving them any leeway.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  449. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    TimG-Oz, you are making it up, actually.

    The Hamas Charter calls for the State of Israel and the Palestinian Territories to eventually be replaced by an Islamic Palestinian state.

    I don’t support that, and nor do the Greens. Another theocracy in the Middle East is the last thing the world needs.

    Can you not understand that it is possible (and I think desirable) to support the rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to live in their historical homeland without supporting the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state and without supporting the violent excesses of Hamas (or more correctly, of its military wing)?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  450. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Tom you state:-
    I’m not confident the Left is capable of the former any longer, particularly in relation to the Islamic religion.

    But they won’t acknowledge that will they?
    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/06/026438.php

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  451. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    DUH!

    Can you not understand that it is possible (and I think desirable) to support the rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to live in their historical homeland without supporting the creation of an Islamic Palestinian state and without supporting the violent excesses of Hamas (or more correctly, of its military wing)?

    If knowing it will lead to the destruction of Israel, the home of the Jews?
    No.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  452. TimG_Oz (865 comments) says:

    toad,

    The Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel, and that they kill the Jews. The “military wings” and “political wings” are the same … who is it that is providing capital punishment to the Palestinian people – they are one and the same.

    If you don’t support them – then where is the public criticism of Hamas by the Green Party? Please provide a link.

    I’ve lived in the area, and my cousin worked in Jenin as an aid worker. Before the ’87 intifada, there was peace, and Palestinians worked in Israel, and Israelis travelled through the territories. There can be peace in a two state solution, but I would suggest it is unlikely in your one-state solution.

    You also haven’t described how your “one state solution” would occur, because you know it is unlikely to be via peaceful means … more by means of violence, which indicates that you would be supportive of said violence

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  453. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    MikeNZ – what precisely do you mean by the “destruction” of Israel?

    I support Israel becoming a secular state in which the human rights of both Jews and Palestinians are equally respected and protected.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  454. TimG_Oz (865 comments) says:

    toad – Israel is a secular state. It’s Arab citizens enjoy equal rights. Druze Arabs serve in the Israeli Army. What’s your point?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  455. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    Tom, this is what you said:

    There are Islamic theologists who are attempting to carve out separate spheres for religion and government – notably Sistani in Iraq – but we’re a long way from Islam accepting that it does not have the primary role in all civil institutions and that its word is not law.

    About the only Muslim nation in the world where that has truly occurred has been in Turkey.

    Citing Sistani as your leading advocate of secular statehood is bizarre, when all those other states I listed, including Indonesia, are demonstrably secular. I cannot for the life of me make out what your argument actually is, apart from, well, wrong.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  456. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    You sound so credible and thoughtful But you know as well as I, that all the Islamists want is for the Jews to not be able to defend themselves so that they can destroy the State of Israel.
    So that it is no longer an affront to Islam by other faiths being equal to Muslims.
    You do realise that they are coming for us too but again that is something you won’t acknowledge. Strange as you don’t appear to be part of the Umma.

    It’s all very well to say that from the safety of NZ.
    I don’t recall ever seeing you castigate Muslim countries for not upholding the same rights for non-Muslims.

    Why do you not speak out against Sharia Law and Dhimmi status of non-muslims, why do you not name countries like Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Yemen, Indonesia and the like for the way they treat their non-Muslims citizens and aliens?
    Why have you not defended the human rights of the hundreds of thousands of Jews driven out of Arab/Muslim lands over the decades?

    Remember they didn’t get a call (at all) to vacate their land and homes, because they would be able to move back in later, as their fellow (Muslims) would cast the others (Jews) out for them. They had to leave because they were unsafe or life got so poor due to their treatment that they had to flee.

    I mean this is all documented, it is available to read but you (and your mates) don’t acknowledge it nor have you ever to my recall championed their rights. Just options to aid their destruction.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  457. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I’m simply not willing to play cut and paste games with KIA and others here. It’s ridiculous stuff. I wonder if KIA is one of those Hasbara internet defenders recruited by Israel to infest sites like this with obfuscation and downright lies. For every Benny Morris quote he dredges up, I could dredge up 10 in response, as any reader can see by the reading list on my blog on the question of Israel.

    There are a number of different points of view about the past, but for me the modern era starts with UNGA resolution 242, passed in the wake of the 1967 war and reaffirmed every year by an overwhelming majority of the member countries, that calls for two states based on the June 6 1967 borders.

    Yassar Arafat announced acceptance of UNGA 181 and UNGA 242 at a news conference 14 Dec 1988, and offered recognition of Israel. The Arab League (which includes Palestine and Lebanon) offer of 2002 along the same lines is still on the table. Yet today Israel is still asking for recognition and a settlement based on the 1967 armistice line appears even further away as Israel colonises ever more land in the OPT, and complains of threats from the Arab states who have had this peace offer open for 8 years.

    And the game keeps changing for Israel as it continually invents new demons to use as an excuse to continue confining Palestinians into ever smaller tracts of land, illegal in international law, as well as either killing or imprisoning large numbers of Palestinians every year.

    Now to the present events – the siege was officially initiated because Israel wanted the people of Gaza to turn against Hamas and eject it from the territory. This has not happened, for many reasons, possibly the most important being that Hamas has the guns. But in the meantime Hamas has made it clear it now views Israel as a reality and is willing to agree to a settlement based on the 1967 borders.

    Rather than negotiate on this basis, according to Netanyahu the current Israeli position is it must continue to blockade Gaza to prevent it becoming a client state of Iran, armed and dangerous to Israel. The fact that this position has no basis in reality (Iran’s official position is that it will accept any settlement agreed to by Palestinians in a referendum, and Israel is recognised as the 8th most powerful military state worldwide, with nuclear weapons, dwarfing Iran’s military power) does not deter Bibi.

    Meantime the people of Gaza suffer.

    Some facts: total Palestinian population both in the OPT and registered as refugees in Syria, Jordan and Lebanon is now over 8 million souls, the vast majority of whom are born into their dire situation.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the past, whatever reprehensible acts carried out by both sides, Israel is a recognised, secure and powerful state which could settle generously if it wanted anything other than full occupation of historic Palestine, excluding Gaza, which it has put in the too-hard basket.

    Palestinians in the West Bank (the biblical Judea and Samaria) know full well how determined Israel is to pursue this goal. The only hope I can offer them is that as South Africa reformed, so can Israel: resistance is never futile.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  458. NeilM (370 comments) says:

    But you know as well as I, that all the Islamists want is for the Jews to not be able to defend themselves so that they can destroy the State of Israel.

    There are some Muslim groups that want to destroy Israel and the present govt of Iran does as well. But that is along way from “all Islamists” what ever you mean by that.

    At present Israel lives in peace with a number of former enemies such as Egypt and Jordan and one of the most “Islamist” countries – Saudi Arabia has very little interest in the whole matter.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  459. NeilM (370 comments) says:

    Rather than negotiate on this basis, according to Netanyahu the current Israeli position is it must continue to blockade Gaza to prevent it becoming a client state of Iran, armed and dangerous to Israel. The fact that this position has no basis in reality (Iran’s official position is that it will accept any settlement agreed to by Palestinians in a referendum, and Israel is recognised as the 8th most powerful military state worldwide, with nuclear weapons, dwarfing Iran’s military power) does not deter Bibi.

    you’re a fool, as much of a fool as MikeNZ.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  460. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Hi LUC
    I will play cut and paste for those who want to read.

    http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/02/israels-actions-entirely-lawful-2/print/
    http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/02/the-%E2%80%9Chumanitarian-relief%E2%80%9D-wing-of-hamas-and-al-qaeda-3/print/
    http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/02/what-makes-intelligent-people-like-andrew-sullivan-so-stupid-gaza-again-2/print/

    For the rest of you who don’t, don’t.

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/06/026438.php
    Here, though, is the truly distressing part. In 2007, the University of Maryland joined with the pollster World Public Opinion to survey Muslim views in nations across the Middle East, North Africa and Southeast Asia – i.e., both Arab and non-Arab Muslims. They found that about two-thirds (65.5 percent) endorsed the requirement of “a strict application of sharia law in every Islamic country.” About the same number wanted to see all Muslim countries unified under a single caliphate, a position shared even by half of Muslims in Indonesia – where one of the most moderate brands of Islam in the world is practiced. These findings match up with other disturbing figures – like the 93 percent of young Palestinians (and 75 percent of all Palestinians) who deny Israel’s right to exist, and the 40 percent of British Muslims who would like to see sharia become the law of England

    It’s not just some little groups NeilM
    I’d rather be thought of as a fool by you than be a Useful Idiot to the Islamists.
    Thank you for outing yourself.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  461. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    Russell

    Clearly you have a comprehension problem so let me state it again in smaller, more digestable chunks:

    ….but we’re a long way from Islam accepting

    That’s Islam itself accepting the theological basis for a secular state and the separation of church and state – which is not the same as having those things enforced upon it over many decades by military or communist dictatorships. Hence the rest of my comment on Turkey that you deliberately ignored:

    But that was at the point of Army rifles, with the will of Ataturk behind them, and it is now a society where that control is fading and Islam is re-emerging, which suggests that the ‘moderate’ aspects of it were never innate.

    The status of all your examples is little different.

    Citing Sistani as your leading advocate of secular statehood is bizarre

    I’m well aware of the various wierd rulings that Sistani has made and that he is far from being secular – but the key point is that he appears to be trying to enagage in a theological argument that separates Islam (Shia anyway) from having direct control of civil institutions.

    Whether he will succeed or not, whether he will back track, nobody can say. But he does not approve of the theocracy of Iran because he thinks it has perverted Islam. Few other leading Islamic theologists are willing to do even that much – and it is that positive transformation from within that is necessary rather than your nebulous hopes that it will just happen naturally in a liberal democracy (emerging or otherwise) – what I call the hope of hedonism.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  462. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    NeilM
    How many rockets does Hezbullah have now being supplied through Iran & Syria (+ others)?
    What’s the difference between Hamas and Hezbullah?
    Not money but access.

    The revolutionary Guard don’t have free access to Gaza like they do in Lebanon.

    But then you Know this don’t you.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  463. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    My apologies in advance if these pieces reappear in the original large chunk I submitted. I can only assume the multiple links are sitting in the queue.

    Bosnia
    Decades of relatively benign communist dictatorship, still with point of the gun control and enforced secularisation. Freeing up. But as Spiegel points out:

    Wahhabism is quickly gaining ground in the country, with polls showing that 13 percent of Bosnian Muslims support the conservative Sunni Islam reform movement. The movement is financed primarily by Saudi Arabian backers, who have invested well over a half-billion euros in Bosnia’s development — especially in the construction of over 150 mosques. The 8,187 square meter (88,124 square foot) King Fahd Mosque in Sarajevo alone cost €20 million ($29 million), and it’s also where radicals go to pray.

    In other words – Turkey without a Westernising Ataturk.
    Seriously – you’re holding up a member of the Baltic disaster zone as a good example of dealing with Islam?

    Uzbekistan
    Decades of brutal communist dictatorship, point of the gun control – with the KGB as an added extra for enforcement of secular lifestyle, many deaths. Freeing up – slightly.

    Even though religious freedom has been restored, government regulations are in place. Since the country borders Afghanistan and Tajikistan, the government fears an increase in extremist and violent groups. Therefore, in order to curb their influence, the Uzbeki government requires mosques to be registered and imams, or mosque leaders, are appointed by government officials.

    In other words – Turkey without a Westernising Ataturk.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  464. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    NeilM

    do explain…I suppose you are going to trot out one (deliberately misinterpreted) statement by the current president of Iran?

    Doesn’t take long for people to turn to mudslinging instead of debate around here, does it?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  465. Its da truth (12 comments) says:

    Tim G – ‘Israel is a secular state. It’s Arab citizens enjoy equal rights’. Are you on crack? Have you ever scene any of the many documentaries showing the ‘equal rights’ the Arabs enjoy.

    There are so many people throwing around ‘facts’ that support the ‘Muslim under the bed’ theories that it’s laughable. Blowing the crap out of a country, blockading any aid, including even concrete to rebuild buildings, is going to breed a generation of oppressed and angry people. The longer Israel continues to act imhumanely the greater the swell of anger will be.

    Luc has listed the facts regarding Palestine in a concise way. It’s fine sit in NZ, safe as houses, while you tap away on your computers talking throught your asses about something most appear to know little about. It’s a different reality to live in a bombed out country that’s had the infrastructure systematically destroyed by your US backed neighbour. Schools, universities, libraries, hospitals, public buildings.- anybocy remember that happening? Hate breeds hate and it’s sad to see so many of you buying into it. Why is the tide of Muslim anger growing? Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  466. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    NeilM
    How many rockets does Hezbullah have now being supplied through Iran & Syria (+ others)?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  467. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    NeilM
    Care to comment on the Nice Saudi expansion of the Wahhabi brand of Islam around the world, here is just one country Tom mentions. 70% of new mosques in the US are Saudi Financed.
    This is the peaceable Saudi Arabia who has no interest in Israels situation as you assert.

    he movement is financed primarily by Saudi Arabian backers, who have invested well over a half-billion euros in Bosnia’s development — especially in the construction of over 150 mosques. The 8,187 square meter (88,124 square foot) King Fahd Mosque in Sarajevo alone cost €20 million ($29 million), and it’s also where radicals go to pray.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  468. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Its your truth

    including even concrete to rebuild buildings

    What would you have them do, let them build buildings to house rockets and command rooms again to just have to knock them down again?
    The blockade is a fair exchange for Hamas stopping building (and using buildings) for military infrastructure to use against the Israeli people.
    The Arabs voted for them did they not?

    This is the consequence of supporting and aiding people who launch rockets against towns and kidnap citizens from a neighbouring area.
    Don’t you teach your kids that consequences happen?

    Meantime the people of Gaza suffer.
    ehh LUC

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  469. virtualmark (1,540 comments) says:

    Its da truth …

    It’s fine sit in NZ, safe as houses, while you tap away on your computers talking throught your asses about something most appear to know little about

    And you are different how???

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  470. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    NeilM & LUC
    How many rockets does Hezbullah have now being supplied through Iran & Syria (+ others)?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  471. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    Indonesia
    Decades of brutal military dictatorships, point of the gun control, many deaths. Freeing up. In other words – Turkey redux – except for the history of amalgamating Hindu, Buddhist, and animist beliefs and practices with Islam, making it not-Islam.

    Bangladesh
    History of brutal military conflicts, suppression by India. Nowadays Reasonably free and democratic. But:

    Post-1971 regimes sought to increase the role of the government in the religious life of the people. The Ministry of Religious Affairs provided support, financial assistance, and endowments to religious institutions, including mosques and community prayer grounds (idgahs). The organization of annual pilgrimages to Mecca also came under the auspices of the ministry
    ………..
    Another step toward further government involvement in religious life was taken in 1984 when the semiofficial Zakat Fund Committee was established under the chairmanship of the president of Bangladesh. The committee solicited annual zakat contributions on a voluntary basis. The revenue so generated was to be spent on orphanages, schools, children’s hospitals, and other charitable institutions and projects. Commercial banks and other financial institutions were encouraged to contribute to the fund. Through these measures the government sought closer ties with religious establishments within the country and with Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
    ………..
    When in June 1988 an “Islamic way of life” was proclaimed for Bangladesh by constitutional amendment, very little attention was paid outside the intellectual class to the meaning and impact of such an important national commitment. Most observers believed that the declaration of Islam as the state religion might have a significant impact on national life, however.

    In other words a holding pattern at best.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  472. Its da truth (12 comments) says:

    Oh my God Mike I was thinking of buildings for people to live in. You know? Children, families, humans. You really are one sick MF!

    I also teach my kids to adhere to the law, to be objective, to tell the truth. Obviously not something yours are going to hear. Well maybe at school where they might get a decent education.

    VirtualMark – touche

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  473. cha (4,084 comments) says:

    Israel, a secular state, well some are concerned about the influence of the Haredim.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  474. kiwi in america (2,511 comments) says:

    Luc
    Your problem is you live in a bubble. Ive visited your website and scanned some of your literature. You are unashamedly pro Palestinian. Everything you read (and blog about) is written by people sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. When challenged to prove the Palestinian case that Jews forced them off the land pre 1948 via actual land deeds you change the subject to actions by the Israeli’s post 1948. Your contention (and that of the Palestinians) is that Israel forceably took land from Palestinians. Since you cannot produce the land deeds that prove the unrightful ownership of any substantive land inside the 1948 boundaries, by your own admission you have moved the debate to conduct during and since the 1948 war.

    The 10 counter quotes to Morris that you will drag from your Palestinian apologists library on your blog dont have the same weight as a Morris. Morris is seen by Zionists as a sell out and by some on the left at least (Noam Chomsky) as an less biased Israeli historian. So the quotes that I ‘cut and pasted’ include (since I didnt put the footnotes):
    1. The eyewitness account of a British general on the ground during the war
    2. Author William Douglas’ eyewitness accounts during the evacuation
    3. I’ll grant you that Samuel Katz might not be seen as neutral
    4. The former Syrian Prime Ministers actual memoirs
    5. Ditto the former Iraqi PM
    6. Ditto a contemporary Jordanian politician
    7. The Arab National Committee own report from Haifa
    8. Quotes from published contemporary Muslim newspapers in the US
    9. PA leader Abbas

    Which of these sources are ridiculous? Put up your quotes and sources so this on line community can weigh the merits of your arguments rather than stoop to the usual tactics of the left – accusations of racism, being anti – Islam or in your case inferring that I am an Israeli plant.

    The facts are that in war there is much confusion. The Israeli’s were not lilly white in the 1948 and all but the most blindly
    Zionist commentators acknowledge that SOME (a few) Palestinians were forced from their properties. The proponderance of evidence shows that the Arab armies encouraged the Palestinians to leave temporarily until they could sort out the Jews. For the few thousand who were really dispossed an offer of $30 billion in compensation was made by the Israelis. Many more Jews who lived in what was supposed to become the new Palestinian state were dispossed of their land as they fled to Israel -are they to be compensated?

    Your concern for the plight of the Palestinians is genuine I am sure. But it blinds you anything that might undermine the case they make.

    You cannot seem to admit that it is the Palestinian leaders urged on by neighbouring Arab countries who started the 1948 war.
    You cannot bring yourself to admit that the vast majority of the land acquired pre-Independence was legitimately bought for full market price. You cannot bring any credible evidence to the contrary to the table.
    You cannot bring yourself to admit that Hezbollah harbours murderous intent and exists to destroy Israel and all its actions reinforce that view including the fact that in spite of all the UN sanctions and resolutions that Syria and Iran continue to arm Hezbollah with rockets that are calculated to kill civilians and do as much damage to Israel.
    You show photos of children killed in Gaza with no mention of the tendency of Hamas to use woman and children as human shields nor can you seem to acknowledge the efforts the Israelis went to to avoid civilian casualties (I dont recall any prior invading army in any way phoning or sending text messages to inhabitants in specific targetted buildings to evacuate prior to an attack – Israel sent 10,000s of these over the weeks of the Gaza campaign).
    You seem blind to the excesses of Hamas’ hit squads who killed and maimed their own people who might be suspected as being spies for Israel and the raft of political assassinations that Hamas engaged in against Fatah because they might be getting too close to a genuine peace negotiation.
    You cannot bring yourself to admit that Arafat and his cronies squandered billions in aid on weapons to wage war on Israel (and to line their own pockets) rather than nation building and the relieve the plight of the people you so want to help.
    You seem to not want to hear the numerous statements made by Ahmajinidad about wiping out Israel and appear willing to accept at face value more measured promises to the contrary.

    I am not a blind pro-Israel advocate. I felt the 1982 war in Lebanon was futile. I feel that some of the outer West Bank settlements were unncessarily provocative. Israeli troops have needlessly killed civilians but at least Israel has a robust court system with the strictest civilian oversight of the military in any modern democracy.

    I supported Ehud Barak’s peace initiative. I supported Israel pulling out of Gaza and forceably removing its right wing settlers there. I support a 2 state solution – one that enables Israel to remain a Jewish state not some forced right of return that ensures a slow death of the Jewish state. If the Palestinians were so wedded to the strip of land that became Israel in 1948, why did so many (as in the vast majority) Arab land owners sell their land willingly at full market price to Jewish settlers?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  475. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Its da truth not.
    Why are you morally blind on this issue?

    You Know (like the sea blockaders) that Israel completely pulled out from the whole of Gaza and left infrastructure for them to continue to use to build up a the community’s economy and was happy for them to live there as long as they didn’t resort to terror against the Israeli population.

    You know (like the sea blockaders) Hamas used said buildings for military purposes, used their people as human shields, converted neighbourhoods to store weapons and to be used as remote timed rocket launch areas, attacked, intimidated and even killed anyone who got in their way to make an armed camp.

    You know (like the sea blockaders) Hamas sent 10,000 rockets into Israel in the hope of hitting someone no matter who they were, that they continually dig tunnels to attack and kidnap Israelis.

    You know (like the sea blockaders) that finally after years of terror the Israelis had to go in and clear an urban environment where Hamas used people incl kids as shelter and human shields.

    You know (like the sea blockaders) that finally the Israeli government to protect their people and stop Iran building Hamas and Gaza as they have Hezbullah in Lebanon, enforced a blockade which includes a sea blockade to stop the flow of materials and the volume of such materials that would allow that.

    What don’t you understand about consequences or are you a liar and you do understand but want Israelis to be subject to terror?

    My family understands that sometimes consequences are harsh even deadly. I just wonder what sort of warped viewpoints are you teaching yours?

    I realise that on the one hand the Arabs in Gaza can’t control an armed band like Hamas now that they have voted them in.
    But that is a consequence isn’t it?

    Don’t you think it would be better for Hamas to not attack Israel and build their economy for their people?
    So why would you ignore the very real circumstances that led to the blockade in the first place?
    and be teaching your children that too?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  476. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Cha
    Are the Haredim advocating a global caliphate?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  477. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    KiwiwinAmerica
    The Israeli’s were not lilly white in the 1948

    And since then too I will certainly acknowledge.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  478. cha (4,084 comments) says:

    No they’re not MikeNZ but they appear to hold privileges that the ordinary Israeli misses out on.

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/child-welfare-doesn-t-benefit-society-1.247053

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/the-mea-she-arim-mob-1.289570

    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/haredi-service-now-1.264522

    More from Shahar Ilan.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  479. Its da truth (12 comments) says:

    Mike STOP telling me what I know! Restating your beliefs with ‘You know’ before them is not intelligent debate.

    Crikey, settle down mate. You’re entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to mine. It’s called free speech.
    I seem to be really getting up your nose. People in life will have different opinions to you, accept it. You’ve implied I’m a liar and warped if I don’t agree with you.

    Yes it would be good for them to not attack Israel and focus on building their economyBUT how can they build their economy with the blockade. That is my point!!!!!Do I need to state this with ‘You know’ before it to get you to understand?

    I know you brought up my children, but having considered it, I think we should leave our children out of this.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  480. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    Nigeria.
    I was ‘staggered’ that poor old Russell was actually willing to use this country as an example of where Islam is not a major threat to the traditional secular aspect of the country.

    Some 11 northern states, beginning with Zamfara on October 27, 1999, and including Sokoto, Kano, and Niger, have passed into law the criminal law sections of the Islamic shari’a code of conduct. The states concerned have advanced with varying speed toward application. Zamfara and Katsina, for example, are now applying the code, while other states have not. Included as part of the shari’a criminal code are the penalties for specific violations—for example, flogging for imbibing alcohol, removal of hands and then feet for recidivist thieves, and stoning in cases of proven adultery (the standard of proof for the last type of behavior is very high). Many northern politicians have supported the so-called shari’a movement through personal conviction, political opportunism, political realism, or a sense that they should represent the wishes of those who elected them.

    This poses a constitutional problem because the Nigerian constitution guarantees a secular state, guarantees freedom of religion, and vests in states concurrent power to establish their own court systems. At both constitutional and practical levels, these guarantees are incompatible in light of the fact that Islam rejects separation of political from religious authority and proposes a unified theocratic system of governance.

    I’ve highlighted the key part of that last quote just in case Russell decides to return and obtusely miss the point -again – which is that, where Islam appears to have been moderated it has really only been suppressed. The moderation has not been generated from within and as such, there is an open question of how compatible it is with any democratic, secular society.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  481. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Sorry IDT
    What was intelligent about your debate?

    You do know finally.
    So you do have selective memory or as you put it You’ve implied I’m a liar and warped if I don’t agree with you.

    I know you brought up my children, but having considered it, I think we should leave our children out of this.

    again you appear to be a liar?

    Its da truth (9) Says:
    June 3rd, 2010 at 11:03 am

    Oh my God Mike I was thinking of buildings for people to live in. You know? Children, families, humans. You really are one sick MF!

    I also teach my kids to adhere to the law, to be objective, to tell the truth. Obviously not something yours are going to hear. Well maybe at school where they might get a decent education.

    Is all that you say just a figment of your imagination?

    Yes it would be good for them to not attack Israel and focus on building their economyBUT how can they build their economy with the blockade.

    You Know (like the sea blockaders) that if they stop arming, sending rockets against Israeli towns and state publicly that they won’t resort to armed actions or kidnapping of Israeli citizens then the blockade will stop fully when they have proven themselves.

    You Know (like the sea blockaders) that it will continue initially but will reduce down over time as the Hamas administration and the Arab people stop all rockets and violence and show that they are using the materials being let through to be used just for peaceful purposes.

    Don’t you think this is a fair consequence, my family do. We discussed it around our dinner table last night.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  482. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    KIA

    Your propaganda has been long since discredited by the best possible candidates, Israelis themselves.

    Regardless, none of what you state as fact, much of it simply risible, alters the fact that I keep putting forward: eight million people, KIA, mostly born into the conflict, mostly descended from the true indigenous people of the land, and living in desperate circumstances totally beyond their control.

    Even the fact of their indigeneity becomes insignificant beside the truly horrific treatment these innocent people endure at the hands of a so-called g-d fearing state.

    You can’t tell me that the siege of Gaza is not collective punishment, illegal under international law, and you can’t tell the people of Gaza to participate in an election then collectively punish them for the results. We all understand why Hamas won at the expense of the Money and Israel-First party, and we all understand that Israel took fright at Hamas holding out the olive branch.

    No-one says that Palestinians have been well served by their leaders, from Husseini, to Arafat or Hamas. That’s irrelevant. Eight million people need a home, and they aren’t going away.

    It can’t carry on indefinitely, it will end, and the longer it goes on, the worse it will be for Israel as a nation. And I am not talking about any military existential threat – that’s ridiculous. I am talking about the clear choice facing Israel – two states voluntarily or one state imposed at some stage.

    And the compliant, slave labour state envisaged by Bibi is just not going to happen. But Bibi, like Ahmadinejad, will pass.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  483. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Tom
    I am chastened by your humility and good grace.
    You set an example for all of us, thank you for being what you are.

    I won’t ask forgiveness for myself as I detest liars and won’t stand for their deliberate behaviour, here or anywhere.
    It is a pleasure reading someone who operates at a much higher level than I do at construct and delivery.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  484. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    Oh my God Mike I was thinking of buildings for people to live in. You know? Children, families, humans. You really are one sick MF!

    Yes, cause we all know that is exactly what that great humanitarian organisation HAMAS will use the concrete for…

    You really are one dumb MF!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  485. KevinH (1,236 comments) says:

    There is no doubt that Israel has committed several international crimes in executing the raids.Claims of self defence are false as are accusations that the flotilla was in a restricted area.In this case members of the flotilla should pursue compensation from Israel for their illegal actions.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  486. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    LUC
    Even the fact of their indigeneity becomes insignificant beside the truly horrific treatment these innocent people endure at the hands of a so-called g-d fearing state.

    What Bollocks.

    They could have been absorbed into all the Arabic countries as the same number of Jews forced out of the same Arab countries were.
    They could have citizenship of those countries (they weren’t Palestinians as that has never been a country) and contributed and taken part in Muslim society.

    This is what refugees do all over the world and have since 1948. Except the Arabs.
    No, the UN set up their own refugee organisation possibly to enable what is being used by people like you right now.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  487. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Surely not KevinH
    http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/02/israels-actions-entirely-lawful-2/print/
    While the international community has, once again, ganged up on Israel, one thing is for certain: the legality of Israel’s actions in stopping the Gaza flotilla is not open to question. What Israel did was entirely consistent with both international and domestic law. In order to understand why Israel acted within its rights, the complex events at sea must be deconstructed:

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  488. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    No-one says that Palestinians have been well served by their leaders, from Husseini, to Arafat or Hamas. That’s irrelevant. Eight million people need a home, and they aren’t going away.

    And 7.5 million Israeli citizens deserve the right to live without the threat of being wiped off the map, either by Iran or Hamas or Hezbollah. Israel has the right to defend itself

    And hey, last I checked the Palestinians ELECTED Hamas to represent them – if they didnt know whet Hamas had in mind, then they were either blind, or they support the murder of Israeli’s… Saying they havent been served well by the leaders they have elected is just denying responsibility.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  489. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    LUC again a load of bollocks
    mate how can you write this?

    You can’t tell me that the siege of Gaza is not collective punishment, illegal under international law, and you can’t tell the people of Gaza to participate in an election then collectively punish them for the results. We all understand why Hamas won at the expense of the Money and Israel-First party, and we all understand that Israel took fright at Hamas holding out the olive branch.

    It is not collective punishment, But it is a consequence of the actions taken.
    What don't you understand about 10,000 rockets?
    What don't you understand about tunneling under border fences to attack and kidnap people?
    Aren't they illegal under international law (or doesn't that apply if it's against Israelis).

    No I don't understand why they won, as they told the people what they were going to do when they got into power perhaps?

    You call 10,000 rockets and the kidnapping of Galid Shalit an olive Branch?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  490. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Bevan
    i>denying responsibility

    LUC is good at that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  491. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    MikeNZ

    Thanks – the departed Ryan Sproull set the example I think. Besides, what point is there in getting into a massive tanty on an online forum?

    And I wish it could always be so – rather hard to resist when the debate includes such terms as wingnut and irrational – but I was chided by Labrator last week for endulging in some egoising and insults on one thread – and he was right :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  492. TimG_Oz (865 comments) says:

    Itsdatruth. I’ve lived there. I’ve worked with PeaceNow. My cousin volunteered in Jenin.

    What have you done for peace?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  493. RRM (10,034 comments) says:

    [BEVAN]:Saying they havent been served well by the leaders they have elected is just denying responsibility.[/quote]

    SO bevan, what you are saying there is that all National voters who are unhappy with Key over GST going up, income tax not coming down enough, cancelled tax cuts in 2009, race relations issues etc etc should all STFU because they are responsible for these decisions?

    If so, I like your style!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  494. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Thanks Cha
    I’ve had a quick squizz and will look over Hidush and World Union for Progressive Judaism over the weekend.
    Gotta work now.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  495. virtualmark (1,540 comments) says:

    Luc,

    Why is what KIA says “propaganda”, but what you say reliable?

    You are clearly pro-Palestinian. Certainly, not pro-Israeli. But equally certainly not neutral. Are you capable of the self-awareness to see that such strongly held views on this issue are unhelpful?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  496. RRM (10,034 comments) says:

    And AMAZED this thread is still going so strong.

    Israel is right at all times, all those who oppose their actions are anti-semites. The end.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  497. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    RRM
    I agree, they should STFU.
    and
    Give their party vote to ACT next time.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  498. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Shouted obscenities are preferable to whispered eulogies
    I like this guy, but then I would.
    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.printable&pageId=161269

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  499. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    RRM
    That is not true at all.

    But in this case she is :-)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  500. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    Bangladesh
    History of brutal military conflicts, suppression by Pakistan military, further military dictatorships following independence. Nowadays Reasonably free and democratic. But:

    Post-1971 regimes sought to increase the role of the government in the religious life of the people. The Ministry of Religious Affairs provided support, financial assistance, and endowments to religious institutions, including mosques and community prayer grounds (idgahs). The organization of annual pilgrimages to Mecca also came under the auspices of the ministry
    ………..
    Another step toward further government involvement in religious life was taken in 1984 when the semiofficial Zakat Fund Committee was established under the chairmanship of the president of Bangladesh. The committee solicited annual zakat contributions on a voluntary basis. The revenue so generated was to be spent on orphanages, schools, children’s hospitals, and other charitable institutions and projects. Commercial banks and other financial institutions were encouraged to contribute to the fund. Through these measures the government sought closer ties with religious establishments within the country and with Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
    ………..
    When in June 1988 an “Islamic way of life” was proclaimed for Bangladesh by constitutional amendment, very little attention was paid outside the intellectual class to the meaning and impact of such an important national commitment. Most observers believed that the declaration of Islam as the state religion might have a significant impact on national life, however.

    In other words a holding pattern at best.

    Finally we come to everybody’s favourite example of a secular Muslim state (well, aside from Turkey of course)

    Indonesia
    Decades of brutal military dictatorships, point of the gun control, many deaths. Freeing up nowadays. In other words Turkey redux – except for the history of amalgamating Hindu, Buddhist, and animist beliefs and practices with Islam, making it not-Islam.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  501. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    Man – it seems that my examples of Bangladesh and Indonesia are not even moderate and secular enough for the Kiwiblog moderation system!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  502. Fletch (6,497 comments) says:

    As I said in another thread – Israel also offered to give Gaza back in 1967 (when it won the war) in exchange for peace (as ordered by the UN), but the Palestinians wouldn’t do it.

    As for Gaza, it was taken by Israel when they won the Six Day Way in 1967. Israel was willing to trade land captured in a defensive war for peace, as it eventually did with the Egyptians and Jordanians, but neither the Palestinians nor the Syrians have been willing to offer peace in exchange for land, as required by Security Council Resolution 242.

    More detail in my other comment.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  503. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    amazing Tom
    your post complaining about Bangladesh not being printed came in before and now it appears after!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  504. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    RRM: SO bevan, what you are saying there is that all National voters who are unhappy with Key over GST going up, income tax not coming down enough, cancelled tax cuts in 2009, race relations issues etc etc should all STFU because they are responsible for these decisions?

    Slightly different contexts dont you think? You’re comparing Hamas’ desire for the genocide of its neighbour, to National putting up GST!

    Also, are you trying to say that the Palestinians didnt know full well what Hamas had been doing for the last 20 years? Deluded = you.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  505. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    Hey – gave me a chance to swap India for Pakistan ;)

    and obviously not all emoticons are acceptable either!!!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  506. RRM (10,034 comments) says:

    [Bevan]:You’re comparing Hamas’ desire for the genocide of its neighbour, to National putting up GST! [/quote]

    You presented it as a pretty general principle. I believe your exact words were “Saying they havent been served well by the leaders they have elected is just denying responsibility.”

    One reason principles are so important, is because they travel. If the Palestinians are what they voted for, then so are our Nat supporters. Can’t have it both ways.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  507. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    cool I just learnt something new, thanks Fletch

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2010/06/editorials_2_june_2010.html#comment-700881

    So you see, the Palestinians could have had that land back if they had sued for peace but they didn’t want to. They rather want Israel destroyed. In the end, Israel gave Gaza back in 2005 as part of the ‘roadmap to peace’, but all they got were more rockets fired from Gaza at them in return.

    Just to get the thread back on track.
    NeilM & LUC
    How many rockets does Hezbullah have now being supplied through Iran & Syria (+ others)?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  508. kiwi in america (2,511 comments) says:

    Luc
    Slogans and evasion – that sums up your contribution here. Israel is a vibrant 1st world democracy and in 1st world democracies people of all political persuasions form parties, write their books and make their case. Israel has plenty of dovish left wingers at every level of society who would all 100% agree with all the literature you link to (but somehow seem uninterested in quoting from).

    Rather than show the land deeds that prove Palestinian ownership you retreat into misty eyed slogans. There is no denying the pain of the Palestinians but what has caused it? The Peel Commission recommended its boundaries back in 1935. The UN debated the same boundaries extensively. A Jewish homeland was allocated to that area where the highest concentrations of Jews lived – ditto a Palestinian homeland. Read that again – trans Jordan was to be the Palestinian homeland. The land inside the 1948 borders was predominantly owned by JEWS. What part of ownership do you not understand. The Jews took the sterile desert offered them – the Palestinians threw their toys out of the cot and wanted the whole of Palestine and fought a bitter war with neighbouring Arab help to get their way. Sorry – didnt work; move to Plan B – oh no Plan B. In the fog of war Jews in the Palestinian territory fled to Israel and Palestinian Arabs fled from Israel – most at the encouragement of their leaders. Are you saying that the former Iraqi and Syrian PMs ‘misspoke’ because their written recollections dont fit with modern Palestinian grievance propoganda.

    The Palestinians rejected the state they were offered, the bulk of them moved from Israel at the behest of their leaders and they have rejected a 2 state solution ever since because they either want all the land or they want to all move from Trans Jordan into Israel. Their plight is sad but self inflicted. The UN and other Arab nations could’ve built a nation – heck Israel likely would contribute to some infrastructure. Their leaders consistently chose war with Israel – something that you sweep away as irrelevant. Its highly relevant.

    The people of Gaza are being punished because their leaders are corrupt thugs who want to make war with Israel. Why are their fellow Arabs in Egypt so restrictive sometimes even more than the Israelis? Have you ever wondered why? Do you really think that Mubahrak does the billing of Netanyahu? You whine about Bibi but even the dovish Shamir and Barak were hated – perhaps not as much. Their left leaning ideology got them no closer to doing a deal because the Palestinians never miss and opportunity to miss an opportunity. Prince Bandar of Saudi said as much to Arafat but he wanted his Intefada.

    8 million people can easily make the land originally granted unto them a home. Those few who were genuinely expelled can and will be adequately compensated. The billions Arafat and Hamas have squandered could transform and modernise the entire infrasructure. No – the Palestinians really want Israel free of Jews – olive branches usually dont come in the form of Katusha rockets fired into Israel AFTER they left Gaza completely and certainly not in the form of SCUD missiles from Iran. When Nazrallah says he hopes more Jews gather to Israel so that he doesnt have to hunt them down and kill them in other countries, when Ahmajinadad repeatedly speaks publicly about a new Holocaust, the Jews remember the last time that the West dismissed the rants of an ideologue – it led to a real Holocaust. They aren’t going to make the same mistake twice.

    Defend your position with quotes and proof – you threaten us with some overwhelming truth that will sweep away all pro-Israel arguments and yet they remain safely locked up in your pro-Palestinian reading list. Spare us the slogans and the crocodile tears.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  509. Its da truth (12 comments) says:

    Learnt something new? Don’t you mean you found something you agree with Mike.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  510. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    RRM: One reason principles are so important, is because they travel. If the Palestinians are what they voted for, then so are our Nat supporters. Can’t have it both ways.

    BULL SHIT! Let us be very clear here: You’re comparing Hamas’ desire for the genocide of its neighbour, to National putting up GST! You are a fucken sick individual.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  511. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    no idt

    I learnt to get an address of a particular post from looking at Fletch’s post so I posted a bit of it to experiment with the block quote I’ve just learnt.
    I’m an old fella you see, it takes time :-)

    Bevan
    It’s the same as the disproportionate rubbish they allways pull.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  512. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    kiwi in america (884) Says:
    June 3rd, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    Go for it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  513. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    toad complains:

    But don’t you understand the point of the blockade? Its entire purpose is to starve the people in Gaza into submission. So why would Israel truck the cargo to Gaza?

    c.f. KIA’s comment above … would you care to comment further toad?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  514. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    kiwi in america 4:02 pm,

    Branded products such as Coca-Cola, Nescafé, Snickers and Heinz ketchup – long absent as a result of the Israeli blockade – are both cheap and widely available. However, the tunnel operators have also flooded Gaza with Korean refrigerators, German food mixers and Chinese air conditioning units. Tunnel operators and traders alike complain of a saturated market – and falling prices.
    “Everything I demand, I can get,” says Abu Amar al-Kahlout, who sells household goods out of a warehouse big enough to accommodate a passenger jet.”

    Gee, you know the Gazans are ‘doing it hard’ when they complain about falling prices due to the market being oversupplied.

    And imagine being limited to a warehouse ONLY “big enough to accommodate a passenger jet”.

    Oh the inhumanity – excuse me while I shed a tear …

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  515. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    KIA
    I read that post the other day, though it wasn’t at that url.
    There was one about the olympic swimming pool too and a new shopping mall.
    Thanks for posting it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  516. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I find it difficult to understand how people like KIA can wallow in their lies, and reply to facts with accusations of sloganeering. The most egregious lie is that Palestine was largely Jewish owned by 1948. KIA and the likes (as for the climate change deniers) ask for proof, then reject that proof when it is offered.

    A detailed listing of all pre-1948 Palestinian towns and villages can be viewed

    here including the Arab/Jew population, the number of houses, area and date of takeover by Jewish forces and the name of that force. it’s easy to use and quite absorbing, if one likes to be informed.

    And you can see a wonderful resource, <a href="http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story564.htm:<Palestine, A Chronology.

    It should be noted that this site is a joint Arab/Jewish project, there being many Jews in Israel who campaign for the Palestinian cause.

    And as I say, there is plenty of reading in the reading list published on my blog, almost all of it by Jewish or Israeli sources. KIA should go and try out his risible lies on them. There is also a good series of talks by Ilan Pappe, a professional historian rather than a professional propagandist) to be found on youtube.

    Now some more recent news:

    1. The siege (and by the way, the UN estimated that the flow of goods into Gaza is only about 25% of the pre-siege flow) is about to be broken, and this was announced by no less a personage than Bibi himself, who has requested inspection of aid convoys into Gaza by an international team, mainly the EU.

    2. Israeli police have attacked and grievously wounded an American who was demonstrating in Israel against the flotilla raid. She was unarmed, and not even active in the demonstration, when three tear gas grenades were fired at her, one hitting her face and causing the loss of one eye. This is in addition to another US citizen killed by Israel’s forces in the last couple of days, a dual Turkish/US citizen actually on flotilla ship.

    But Israel also has impunity even for killing US citizens, as plenty of previous example testify to.

    And KIA and others here show their contempt for international law, including the Geneva Convention, when promoting various reasons (the goalposts are always moving) for imposing the siege, all of which entail the collective punishment of the civilian population of Gaza, one of the most heinous war crimes that European Jews should be especially revolted by, given their history.

    Time to take a rest from this particular sewer. I’ve got to organise my latest donations to Viva Palestina.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  517. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I don’t know why DPF won’t give me permission to edit my posts, but you can follow the incompetently posted link anyway, although I’m sure most of you won’t!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  518. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    SR: “Alan get a reality check. Arabs have an AVERAGE birthrate of over 8. If there was a single state they would make up about at least 1/3 of the population on day one and within 10 years or so would be the majority.”

    Ok, let’s do the reality check:

    “The growth rate of the Arab population in Israel is 2.6%, while the growth rate of the Jewish population in Israel is 1.7%. The growth rate of the both Jewish and Arab population has slowed from 3.8% in 1999 to 2.6% in 2008 for Arab and 2.7% to 1.7% for the Jewish population. The fastest growing segment of population remain to be Arab Muslim with the latest growth rate of 2.8% for 2008.”

    For Palestine (West Bank, East Jerusalem, Gaza) the population growth rate is 2.225% (2008 est.)

    To keep it simple let’s take a worst case where the Jewish population growth remains at 1.7% and the Arab population all grows at 2.6% and we’ll start with a Jewish population of 8M and Arab of 4M. Here is what happens:

    Yr Jews Arabs
    0 8.00 4.00
    1 8.14 4.10
    2 8.27 4.21
    3 8.41 4.32
    4 8.56 4.43
    5 8.70 4.55
    6 8.85 4.67
    7 9.00 4.79
    8 9.15 4.91
    9 9.31 5.04
    10 9.47 5.17

    15 10.30 5.88
    20 11.21 6.68
    25 12.19 7.60
    30 13.27 8.64

    So even after 30 years there is no prospect of an Arab majority. And almost certainly as I said before with education for women and increased prosperity the Arab birthrate would actually reduce.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  519. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    It’s just the way the system works some days I think as it’s happened to me more than once.
    reboot and come back in.

    How about these LUC if you’re bored and none are Jewish sites.

    http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/story.html?id=3094801
    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/the-problem-with-playing-defense-15459
    http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2010/0601/Gaza-flotilla-Why-the-blockade-makes-sense-for-Israel

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  520. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    Actually I meant to use 2.8% for the Arab growth rate but it doesn’t make much difference. It gets to 9.16M in 30 years.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  521. Its da truth (12 comments) says:

    They wouldn’t let me edit my post either Luc. I wonder if it’s selective or happening to everyone?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  522. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Hey LUC
    Did you know, that before the flotilla set off from Tukey, Cyprus banned them from landing there, they refused to take aid to the kidnapped Israeli Galid Shalit and the Crummy Israelis offered to land and move the aid on from a safe port?
    Can you believe it?

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/gaza-aid-convoy-refuses-to-deliver-package-to-gilad-shalit-1.292541
    http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/MFA+Spokesman/2010/Israel-invites-the-international-flotilla-to-unload-its-cargo-in-Ashdod-port-27-May-2010.htm
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3895287,00.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  523. RRM (10,034 comments) says:

    [Bevan]: BULL SHIT! Let us be very clear here: You’re comparing Hamas’ desire for the genocide of its neighbour, to National putting up GST! You are a fucken sick individual. [/quote]

    Oh, ok, so when you said people are responsible for the acts of the governments they vote in, you didn’t really mean it?

    Or does this responsibility only apply to people you disagree with?

    FWIW I’m not “comparing” genocide with tax cuts, any fool could see this.
    But I am wasting my breath, you see whatever you want to see on the page so it is just not worth talking to you. back on the spam list you go…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  524. RRM (10,034 comments) says:

    ^^^MikeNZ – is that really so unreasonable?? The flotilla didn’t want to hand over their cargo to the very people who they blame for Gaza’s problems?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  525. Alan Wilkinson (1,901 comments) says:

    Yes, the editing is broken I think. It lets you try then refuses. .. Unless this is added! It was, so it must be intermittent.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  526. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    RRM
    On the face of it that seems very reasonable doesn’t it?
    But wait there is more (as there always is) :-)

    Why the blockade in the first place?
    What were the true intentions of the Humanitarian activists?
    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/boatloads-of-bloody-minded-pacifists/story-e6frezz0-1225874166305

    It really depends on where you stand on the rights of a sovereign state to exist in Israel’s case.

    I know where I stand,
    The blockade is a consequence of 10,000 (and counting) terrorist rockets and attacks against Israeli towns, (after clearing out of Gaza) with a kidnapping thrown in for good measure.
    and with an eye on what has become of Lebanon under Hezbullah.

    The Peace Activists deliberately set out with Turkish govt or Int assistance to run the blockade not to bring humanitarian aid.

    The Israelis offered them safe passage to a port where they would check the contents and on send.
    The peace activists refused the sovereign states offer and the family of a kidnapped Isreali to take him aid too.

    The Sovereign state took action as they were entitled to at sea to prevent the blockade being broken.
    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/the-problem-with-playing-defense-15459

    The peace activists had preprepared videos of the Israelis attacking them during daylight and prepared themselves to repel borders with lethal force.

    The Israelis helo dropped at night with paintball guns as their primary weapons but were overwhelmed by superior force and then shot at both with their own personal protection secondary guns and other calibres.
    http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N02192851.htm

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  527. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    All those who hold the view that no matter what Israel does it is always wrong, or the more ‘moderate’ who say this latest action by Israel is an “Israeli PR disaster”, let me put the following question:

    What other sovereign nation, given a similar scenario, and a similar threat, would not hesitate to follow the same procedure as did Israel? And would they not be within their rights to do so? – especially in light of international law where sovereign states have the right to defend themselves and their citizens:

    SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

    Neutral merchant vessels

    67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

    (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
    (b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
    (c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy’s armed forces;
    (d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy’s intelligence system;

    (f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy’s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

    That the world attempts to hold Israel to a higher, and in the circumstances unreasonable, standard just shows the level of anti-Semitism directed against the nation of Israel in particular, and the Jewish people in general.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  528. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    (f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy’s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

    I’d say concrete for building bunkers would qualify Kris :-)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  529. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    MikeNZ 2:59 pm,

    I’d say concrete for building bunkers would qualify Kris

    … but, no doubt, the line likely to be trotted out would be that it was to be used for the local new kindergarden.

    Having said that, would ‘indoctrination centres’ be counted as ‘military’ structures?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  530. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    I’m not sure exactly what you mean.
    detention centres for torture which they already have from Fatah?
    or
    UN built secular schools?
    or
    UN funded (read us), Islamist staffed kindergarten through to senior schools?

    I certainly think stores for warheads and rocket bodies as that’s been proven already.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  531. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    MikeNZ 5:10 pm,

    I’m not sure exactly what you mean.

    UN funded (read us), Islamist staffed kindergarten through to senior schools?

    Yeah, that one.

    What kindergarden, primary, secondary school, or even university, in a Muslim country, but especially ‘Palestine’, isn’t just an anti Western/Israeli ‘indoctrination centre’? And on that basis one could argue the point that they, in fact, are military targets; in the broader sense of the word, anyway.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  532. Its da truth (12 comments) says:

    Blah blah blah blah blah all Jews are great, any criticism is anti Semite, anyone who thinks Israel might be overreacting is evil, wrong, stupid, ignorant etc blah blah blah.

    I’ll leave you to enjoy your daisy chain.

    Adios Amigos

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  533. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    @IDT – No, all Jews are not great. Some have made atrocious decisions and demonstrated – what appears to us – to be profoundly poor judgments. But then you and I are not surrounded by 200million people lead by religious zealots and political barbarians who regularly declare that we should be destroyed. I suspect a great many of the Israel-haters would be singing a different tune if we were so surrounded.

    Why do the blockade us? Why do they fire on us?.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  534. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    TDT
    All Jews are not great as KK says but becoming a Dhimmi by keeping your head in the sand is daft.

    http://www.andrewbostom.org/loj//content/view/17/27/
    http://www.andrewbostom.org/loj//content/view/16/27/

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote