The difference between Donald and Norman
June 19th, 2010 at 9:00 am by David FarrarThe Herald reports:
Dr Norman’s protest was in contrast to that of the late former co-leader of the Greens, Rod Donald, in 2005 against Wu Bangguo, chairman of the National People’s Congress.
Mr Donald’s was a silent protest and he sought advice from the Speaker at the time about where to stand – some distance from his target.
New Zealand security and police stood with Mr Donald and refused to let Chinese security stand in front of him and the Tibetan flag he was holding.
Dr Norman was jostled as he held the flag aloft and moved chanting towards Mr Xi, arriving at Parliament’s Beehive entrance.
He was a metre or two from him.
One of at least two dozen officials travelling with Mr Xi covered the flag with his umbrella.
Seconds later someone grabbed the flag from him and dropped it.
Dr Norman stopped chanting “Freedom for the people of Tibet!” and started yelling “Give me my flag back” and “Don’t bring your undemocratic practices to our country”.
I think Rod Donald showed how to do a protest with dignity.
The Chinese officials should still have not touched Norman’s flag or person, but you do wonder if Norman was trying to get them to do exactly that by advancing on the Vice-President.
June 19th, 2010 at 9:04 am
Are Wussell and Bethune related. They seem to show the same characteristics
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:04 am
Russell just looked like a gigantic child who had his toy taken from him.
I suspect the Chinese Guards will receive bonuses for this very reason.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:10 am
Good on Russel for protesting! (I can’t believe there weren’t a few dozen more protesters).
Vote:That is the only good thing I can recall a ‘greenie’ doing for years.
— FREE TIBET! —
June 19th, 2010 at 9:11 am
Russell Norman looked an idiot, acted like a spoilt child and we don’t need this type of behaviour from our MP’s. He was a disgrace!
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:11 am
@ Nookin: maybe they had the same teacher.
DPF, I find it hard to believe that Wus did not know that he would generate such a reaction, thus I cannot have any sympathy for him. Donald’s was a peaceful protest, Normans…. not so much.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:13 am
Just another show pony. Then cries when he gets exactly what he wants.
He’s got the right to protest, but there’s only one reason he could get that close and that’s because he’s a representative of the people of NZ. Is that really how we want our representatives behaving?
Someone quipped last night that they would have shouted ‘he’s got a gun’ if they were there, I agree.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:14 am
So the protest became “gimmie my flag back your brutes”. The people of Tibet became incidental. Dr Norman does not give a flying f***k about Tibet he only cares about his miserable flag.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:17 am
tvb, I bet he doesn’t even really care about the flag… It’s the airtime that counts
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:22 am
Send this noxious introduced species back where he came from
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:23 am
Someone should protest Russel about the plight of aboriginals. We don’t want those practices in our country.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:33 am
As I said yesterday, Russell Norman is a first class hypocrite. He would in an instant give the NZ government all the powers the Chinese Communist government has, if he ever could do that. He doesn’t give one damn about Tibet. He cares about self promotion.
All that said, the fact remains that this delegation is a band of thugs, allies of the murdering totalitarian regime that holds power in China by means of its fire power. They murdered an unknown number of their own citizens in the Tiananmen square massacre. They should not even be in the country, they should be in jail or facing a firing squad in a democratic China, and if they broke any NZ law, they should face the consequences the same as NZers who break laws here face consequences every day.
It galls me intensely to see representatives of China’s totalitarian communist government fawned over by spineless local politicians. These communist thugs do not come here with dignity and pride intact, they come here as violent and savage oppressors of democracy in China. If they must come because of trade considerations, this is still no reason to treat them with the same respect as legitimate leaders of a democratic country, and they should definitely not be exempt from the laws NZers must abide by.
If there has been a law broken, let’s see if the NZ Police Force under its belly crawling politically correct bunch of Commissioners and Commanders, has the same enthusiasm for arresting visiting Chinese thugs as it does for harassing NZers who break the speed limit by an unmeasurable point or two. I don’t think so.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:40 am
Have to say again that this is not about rights but responsibilities. Something that never seems to figure in the minds of the left and their friends.
This is about treating with “{respect and dignity”, a person who when invited by our leaders, leads a delegation to our country and to our parliament. To our “HOUSE”
A person who will be the leader of the most populated nation of this world, a person who is extremely influential in the trading that our nation depends on and a person who can determine very easily the future prosperity of our country.
That a person who is anointed (not elected as he claims), by our voting system to carry out that responsibility of creating wealth and higher living standards for all NZer’s, would even consider behaving in the way he did does a disservice to all NZer’s, no matter what their opinion is on Tibet.
And that is really the nub of the issue. That Norman is so incredibly foolish to behave this way.
None of us would invite a business partner to our house for a visit and then allow our siblings or children to picket that visitor. Its simply not conceivable regardless of their own views, so why should we tolerate it at “OUR HOUSE” or anywhere else in NZ when we are working with invited guests that are so important to us.
And why should we tolerate it from someone whose supposed purpose in his paid role is to improve the wealth and prospects of all NZer’s.
Like Carter he needs to ask himself why he is in Parliament if its not to achieve those objectives.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:42 am
Back to Australia with him, or
Vote:Set him in irons, or
Send him to China, or
Run a tank over him, or
Give him an L, and
Change his name to Russell ….
Anything…. but take him away !
June 19th, 2010 at 9:42 am
The Chinese officials are here to protect their VP. They would be trained to not take any shit; in China they certainly wouldn’t. So their reaction was “normal” to them.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:43 am
” Chinese vice-president Xi Jinping has cancelled a planned visit to Wellington’s Victoria University today amid security concerns following yesterday’s incident involving Green Party co-leader Russel Norman at Parliament.
Mr Xi was due to officially launch the university’s Confucious institute this morning.
The international network of nearly 300 Confucius Institutes aims to satisfy the demand from people from all around the world to learn the Chinese language and enhance their understanding of Chinese culture.
More than 150 guests including local and international dignitaries were due to attend the official launch which has now been cancelled.
A Victoria University security guard confirmed the cancellation this morning.
Dr Norman complained to police he was assaulted by Chinese security guards as he waved the Tibetan flag on the steps of Parliament during the Mr Xi’s visit to Parliament yesterday.
Police said there was not enough evidence to substantiate Mr Norman’s complaint.
– stuff.co.nz
This is another difference.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:44 am
Redbaiter bleets that the Greens want to impost some sort of totalitarian dictatorship in New Zealand, but when representatives from a real totalitarian regime actually visit this country, the only one protesting is…a Green Party MP.
How to square that one in Redbaiter’s world? Must be tough.
I thought the National and ACT Parties stood for freedom, yet I did not see one of their MPs or members protesting. Did Redbaiter protest on behalf of the Chinese people? No, he just criticises people, who unlike him actually have the balls to protest, from the comfort of his keyboard.
Pathetic. But not unexpected.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:47 am
Quite right Viking.
Norman again demonstrates why only teenagers and drug addled geriatric hippies vote green.
Dignified protest my arse. He tried to create an incident by being incredibly rude to a guest of New Zealand. This guest just happens to be about to take on the role of the leader of one of the most powerful nations on earth.
This guest chose to come to New Zealand as his first overseas visit before taking on the job, because we have put so much effort – on both sides – into building this relationship,
and some ginga twat import from australia decides its more important for him to bignote.
way to go fella.
Note I carry no water for communism (nor of course do the CCP these days), but this is basic realpolitik. New Zealand is a small, weak and defenceless country with very few friends. We are utterly reliant on foreign capital, and we only survived the recent global financial meltdown because the Chinese were buying our (and Australias) stuff.
Who do we want to piss off?
And if we want to get picky, I guess supporting a regime with an hereditory dictator chosen on spiritual grounds, means that the Greens will carry no water for the republican movement in New Zealand? No, you say? quelle horreur!
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:48 am
Communism does not inspire any love for one’s fellow communists. The red communists and the green communists are simply jostling for power and control, just like the Russian communists and the Chinese communists during the cold war.
Bill.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:52 am
Perhaps , radar, national & act have figured out that protests don’t work and more subtle, private measures are called for. China will never back down, especially to a bunch of dirty hippies from NZ.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:02 am
“The Chinese officials should still have not touched Norman’s flag or person,”
I think you’ll find Normans flag first touched them, and everyone in the close proximity. Surely the officials have a right to walk into parliament without having someone pushing past them draping a flag on their heads. Clearly the chinese guys grab of the flag was in response to it being draped over his head
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:03 am
Radar, you’re full of it.
Go to China and spend some time there and you’ll realise the people are happier than we are here; are as free as we are here; and they love their country. The bizarre thing about this whole episode is that Norman is wailing on about following NZ laws and societal norms when in NZ yet on the other hand is fully in favour of multi-culturalism and allowing women to wear burkas in NZ. If the government stood up and said “you’re in NZ now and we don’t weasr those here”, and “when in NZ do what NZers do”, Norman (and Radar and Toad) would be all over it like flies to shit.
Their hypocricy has no limits.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:04 am
One News said last night they had two cameras there; one filming the arrival of the Chinese VP, and one filming Norman. Why? Had they been given advance notice of his intentions?
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:05 am
If it had been the Chinese security guards jostling Russell and draping the Chinese flag over his head he would have complained about being assaulted.
Yet when he does precisely the same thing to them…he complains about being assaulted.
In an ideal world we’d now be talking about Blair Peach and Russell Norman in the same sentence…
radar,
You obviously fail to grasp the point.
Russell was specifically not protesting against the tyranny of the Chinese government but only its actions as far as they effect the relatively small number of people who happen to live in an area of land known as Tibet. Hence the Tibetan flag. D’ya see?
His own record of advancing the interests of the state over the liberty of the individual is well documented; indeed, something he is perversely proud of. His support for criminalising free speech is a matter of record.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:12 am
I repeat. Russell Norman wasn’t protesting the Chinese commies. He actually endorses and yearns for ands works towards big powerful autocratic totalitarian government.
He would only have minor political differences with these thugs.
Russell Norman was merely seeking publicity for Russell Norman. He professes to care for the rights of the Tibetans, but if the Tibetans were BP, he’d have them in chains.
Don’t be fooled. The Watermelons are big government anti-capitalist communists. They try very hard to look like something else, but that is what they really are.
If you disagree with this, shoot me down in flames. Nominate one right wing pro capitalist Green Party member.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:14 am
“Go to China and spend some time there and you’ll realise the people are happier than we are here; are as free as we are here;”
What crap. A great example of why ACT are so fucking useless.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:21 am
“One News said last night they had two cameras there; one filming the arrival of the Chinese VP, and one filming Norman. Why? Had they been given advance notice of his intentions?”
“Dr Norman complained to police he was assaulted by Chinese security guards as he waved the Tibetan flag on the steps of Parliament during the Mr Xi’s visit to Parliament yesterday. Police said there was not enough evidence to substantiate Mr Norman’s complaint.” – stuff.co.nz
I assume the police have viewed the TVNZ footage as well as talking to the Diplomatic Protection people, one of whom was shown telling Norman he ‘was protecting HIM’, for which Norman thanked the officer.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:27 am
Dose anyone have any footage of this event? links would be appreciated.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:30 am
Touché!
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:31 am
It’s interesting to see so many right-wingers defending the Chinese. So is being Green an even bigger sin than being Communist? What about a Green Communist? Heaven forbid
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:35 am
I suggest before anyone opens their mouths again, take a look at the video (it is only about 90 seconds)
http://tinyurl.com/34u3wyb
At about 17 seconds. Norman is seen barging the chinese guy out of the way – it seems like Norman should be the one up for assault. It is obvious Norman was out to cause a ruckus right from the start.
The chinese security ripped the flag out obviously because it could have been used as a distraction or cover for other things.
How the hell were they to know who Russel was, or his likelihood to do something stupid.
The Americans would have acted no differently from the Chinese – in fact they would most likely at the very least would have slammed him into the ground – hard.
Nothing to do with freedom of speech. Everything to do with physically protecting a visiting dignatary.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:36 am
@ Banana Llama – an extended version of what One News showed last night is here
http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/06/more-thoughts-on-gimme-norman.html
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:42 am
> it could have been used as a distraction or cover for other things.
Like the umbrella that the Chinese security guy was holding? That’s odd because I didn’t see any rain. He must’ve been trying to protect himself from that intense Wellington sun…
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:45 am
“..Go to China and spend some time there and you’ll realise the people are happier than we are here; are as free as we are here; and they love their country…”
i guess those high numbers of factory-workers suiciding…didn’t get the memo…
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:46 am
“..What about a Green Communist? Heaven forbid
..”
(ahem..!…)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:50 am
you must almost cream your jeans there gooner….
when you meditate on how little chinese workers are paid..?
..oh..!..to have all yr act-ite/rand-ite dreams come true….
..and have that here…
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 10:56 am
“..He must’ve been trying to protect himself from that intense Wellington sun…..”
um..!…yes..
are you from down there in white-land are you…?
(that ‘scary’ ‘south’..
(cue ‘duelling -banjos’…)
up here in the real world…it is quite common to see asians using umbrellas on sunny days…
and when i travelled in china…this was also quite a common sight..
maybe you need to prise yrslf out of the laz-ee-boy a bit more often..
..and get out a bit more..
..eh..?
(non-white people aren’t really ‘scary’…eh..?..
..you should try talking to some…)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:00 am
so..all you (suddenly-i-love-chinese-commies) righties wd be all happy about the internet-censorship-wall in china..?..eh..?
sheesh..!..yr fucken bending yrslves into pretzels over this one…eh..?
fun to watch…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:02 am
Thank you very much Inventory2, posted my thoughts over at Keeping Stock.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:03 am
Someone should protest Russel about the plight of aboriginals. We don’t want those practices in our country.
Exactly. Visit Tibet. Then visit Alice Springs. Who are worse off? The Tibetans or the aborigines?
In fact the life expectancy of Tibetans is 65.8 years, higher than that of Australian aborigines (about 60).
Given that China’s per capita GDP is a lot lower than that of Australia’s that is quite remarkable.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:08 am
so..all you (suddenly-i-love-chinese-commies) righties wd be all happy about the internet-censorship-wall in china..?..eh..?
sheesh..!..yr fucken bending yrslves into pretzels over this one…eh..?
Of course not. But the laws China has are for China. Unless the Chinese insist that New Zealand adopt the same laws, then there is absolutely no issue with having a good relationship with China.
Just like how the Netherlands can have a good relationship with NZ, despite differences in views towards drugs. The Dutch could well consider NZ drug laws to be draconian. But NZ does not force our viewpoint on the Dutch, so that is OK.
Just like how many would consider the gun laws of many US states to be completely crazy. But that is OK, we can still have a good relationship with the US. But obviously it would be a different story if the US, for whatever absurd reason, thought fit to force upon us their idea of the right to bear arms.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:09 am
an interesting politness-theme in this thread….
…and confirmation how in any battle between principles….and money….
money wins hands-down…eh…?
and i know you are/were all really big on ‘freedom’ for the iraqi-people…
wither the tibetans…?….(at least saddam was a local…these are foreign invaders…eh..?..)
and i guess you’d have advocated being ‘polite” to hitler … as well..
..eh..?
(what..!..he was rude to the fuhrer..?’..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:10 am
I agree with you David, if this was a ‘peaceful protest’ why on earth does the footage reveal Norman approaching the Chinese officials’ closer and closer every time? he was clearly creaping closer and closer with the intention to intimidate the officials, and it is a shame that charges or a warning has not been pressed against him.
Norman was swift in his insistence that his ‘right to protest’ was being tarnished (almost immediately) and that he would press charges at once, the entire issue is being sensationalised by the perpetrator of this occassion, Mr Norman himself. If he had any sense of decency he would have protested at a responsible distance from the official delegation.
Shame on him for knowing what was right and doing otherwise for political publicity.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:11 am
“In fact the life expectancy of Tibetans is 65.8 years”
Help me out here. How much of this is down to being oppressed and murdered by Chinese communist thugs?
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:12 am
“..Given that China’s per capita GDP is a lot lower than that of Australia’s that is quite remarkable…”
no..that is an indictment as to what ..in many ways…a racist society/culture/country australia is…
..and that the aborigines are at the very very bottom of that racist pecking-order…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:14 am
i guess those high numbers of factory-workers suiciding…didn’t get the memo…
Actually the suicide rate was perhaps spurred on from the fact that the compensation for death at work, regardless of cause (including suicide) was 10 years salary.
Parts of China are still very poor. For some young people from these places, 10 years salary for their families would possibly have been just enough for them to sacrifice their lives. That is the real tragedy of countries like China, and indeed every single developing country – poverty.
This of course is a huge human rights issue. Poverty is still the biggest human rights issue in China, and it is the one the Chinese government are concentrating on now, and making a lot of headway against – more than any other developing country. Issues like ‘the firewall’, ‘google’ etc are by contrast so minor and inconsequential.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:16 am
“Just like how the Netherlands can have a good relationship with NZ”
The Netherlands is democratic, and I don’t recall the Dutch government killing and jailing any of its citizens lately. Or even limiting their internet access. You have a damn cheek mate, using NZ’s most genuinely liberal blog to disseminate communist propaganda.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:16 am
Phil
Vote:where has anybody heaped praise on the Chinese censorship wall? Blow away the plumes of smoke and draw a rational connection between the appropriateness of the manner of protest by a New Zealand politician about Chinese treatment of Tibet on the one hand and Chinese Internet policy on the other?
June 19th, 2010 at 11:16 am
“…That is the real tragedy of countries like China, and indeed every single developing country – poverty…”
as here in new zealand…
“…This of course is a huge human rights issue. Poverty is still the biggest human rights issue in China..”
and here….
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:18 am
# ross (462) Says:
June 19th, 2010 at 10:31 am
It’s interesting to see so many right-wingers defending the Chinese. So is being Green an even bigger sin than being Communist? What about a Green Communist? Heaven forbid
Not defending the Chinese per se, just lambasting the idiot who got what he wanted, then bitched about it.
oh, yeah, NZ Green party = Commies in disguise.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:21 am
“But obviously it would be a different story if the US, for whatever absurd reason, thought fit to force upon us their idea of the right to bear arms.”
Well yes, it might well be a different story. For instance many of the criminals who arrogantly call themselves the Chinese government and who oppress the Chinese people through force of arms might now be sitting in jail cells awaiting public execution.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:21 am
The issue of poverty in China is almost a moot point. I say this because for the last 10 or so years, the Chinese government has invested significantly in it’s domestic backyard (employment, education, healthcare, social security, military services, etc).
Poverty is also evident in the Southern states of America, Britain, Russia and Japan. In fact even in India, some of the poorest states in the world reside.
Poverty is an indicator of social dysfunction, but it should not be taken too seriously. It is rather minor on the grand scale of national economic might and expansion. China has been expanding as an economy for decades now.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:26 am
Poverty is an indicator of social dysfunction, but it should not be taken too seriously.
Sure the fact that there is still great poverty in China does not override the fact that on every economic indicator China overall is doing very well. But in the end the aim is not to have good economic indicators. The end goal is to translate these into real improvements in the living standards of poor people – especially in the interior of China, including of course remote regions such as Tibet.
China is doing a good job, much better than the giant ‘democracy’ of India. However if you are still poor, still finding it hard to pay your medical bills, change is, still, all too slow.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:26 am
I don’t see a problem with what the Chinese did.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:30 am
Im wondering if Russel Norman has also breached of the UN Vienna Conventions on Diplomatic Relations.
Vote:It specifies the privileges of a diplomatic mission that enables diplomats to perform their function without fear of coercion or harassment by the host country. Russel is after all using his MP ‘legislator’ (his words) status to harrass these diplomats
June 19th, 2010 at 11:33 am
“The end goal is to translate these into real improvements in the living standards of poor people – especially in the interior of China, including of course remote regions such as Tibet.”
Absolutely, I agree entirely. However, I also acknowledge the sheer size of the Chinese national population. The social/domestic investment by government in China is fairly recent, as a result of it’s population size, it may be a while yet until we see some firm outcomes or results. I have cited some sources that indicate slow decline in national poverty, complimented by increases in employment, education, health/well being and overall development. Change does not come overnight, particularly in a country the size of China.
I expect to see some more evident outcomes in the next 10 or so years, when the investment should have trickled down.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:36 am
“China is doing a good job, much better than the giant ‘democracy’ of India.”
Well, if the corpses from Tiananmen square, those brave Chinese people who rose up for democracy, could come back to life and speak out, I reckon they’d have a slightly different view on that.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:39 am
If Norman had to protest the Chinese VP
Why wasn’t he protesting about China’s disgusting North Korea policy, rather than about Tibet?
Far more people have died are dying in North Korea than Tibet (up to 3 million)
Could it be that he sympathizes more with the Stalinist North Korea government which is supported by China than the Chinese capitalist government?
Where as the Buddhist Tibetan exiles are useful pawns that he can protest in support of to embarass the Chinese, not that he has anything in common with their ideology.
Things must have been so much simpler for the far left when Mao Tse Tung was around
Vote:He may as well just chant ‘ Bring back Chairman Mao’
June 19th, 2010 at 11:40 am
“The end goal is to translate these into real improvements in the living standards of poor people – especially in the interior of China, including of course remote regions such as Tibet.”
So tell me, how much money has been invested in nuclear submarines and other weaponry lately??
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:46 am
“So tell me, how much money has been invested in nuclear submarines and other weaponry lately??”
A valid question, although I would argue that China’s status as a permanent UN Security Council Member provides a political obligation to secure it’s local region from the ongoing threat of violence and/or instability. The threat from North Korea is evident, China will need to take a leadership stance on this ongoing tension and it can’t do so by adopting a diplomatic approach alone. Dealing with dictatorship’s is far from diplomatic, surely you would know that?
If China is the leader in it’s region, it needs to have a proactive military in order to do so effectively. America, Israel and Britain have all supported this particular stance, Australia has followed.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:51 am
“So tell me, how much money has been invested in nuclear submarines and other weaponry lately??”
My guess is a fraction of what the US is spending… and the Chinese could have spent more if not for having to prop up the US financially.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:52 am
Just like how many would consider the gun laws of many US states to be completely crazy. But that is OK, we can still have a good relationship with the US.
Such as Washington DC (admittedly not a State) that has some of the most draconian gun controls in the US (at least until the Supreme Court sorted out the handgun ban)? And for that matter has one of the highest violent crime rates in the US.
Only criminals have to fear an armed citizen.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:55 am
Chinese defense spending has increased by an average of 12.9% annually since 1989 when Beijing launched an ambitious army modernization program, and this was only the second year over that period in which annual growth was less than 10%.
The actual level of effort is seriously understated, and may represent as much as $100-150 billion.
In 2000 it was about $15 billion.
“If China is the leader in it’s region, it needs to have a proactive military in order to do so effectively. America, Israel and Britain have all supported this particular stance, Australia has followed.”
I don’t believe that and have read many expressions of disquiet about China’s military expansion.
Whatever, its a lot of “real improvements in living standards of poor people”.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:58 am
I viewed the video of this incident with some amazement – well some amazement after I stopped laughing that is.
In most other countries, including all of the totalitarian dictatorships Wed Wussell wants NZ to emulate, a wild-eyed looney charging a VIP (whether visiting or local) would be immediately shot.
I congratulate the Chinese security fellow (also an invited guest in NZ lest we forget) on his restraint.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 11:59 am
“My guess is a fraction of what the US is spending…”
So what’s your point? There’s nobody from the US writing here and defending a murdering totalitarian thug government.
Let me guess. You’re just another US hating (its democratic) China loving (its a totalitarian dictatorship) watermelon.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:01 pm
Yeah… I bet the Chinese also secretly provided billions to support the noble cause of the US in hurting down the WMD in Iraq…
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
“the noble cause of the US in hurting down the WMD in Iraq…”
Gee, you really don’t want to talk about the Chinese thug government at all do you?
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
The Chinese officials should still have not touched Norman’s flag or person, but you do wonder if Norman was trying to get them to do exactly that by advancing on the Vice-President.
DPF: Has anyone told you Parliament abolished the provocation defence? I’ve got to wonder why you can’t bring yourself to say there’s no acceptable excuse or spin for the kind of shit Beijing would find absolutely intolerable if positions were reversed.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:05 pm
Well said MT_Tinman!
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:07 pm
FREE TIBET! (With purchase of Tibet of equal or greater value)
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
@Redbaiter
You’re questioning the amount of spending for a country with 1.1 billion people on military and defense. I’m just trying to put things in perspective for you by bringing up the biggest military spending nation in the world.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
“I’m just trying to put things in perspective for you”
Get this dumbarse. I don’t need brain dead know nothing left wing punks spoon fed commie propaganda like you “putting things in perspective” for me.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
@Cracker666 – lol and welcome.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:17 pm
“Give me my flag back”
“Sorry it’s been redistributed .. lol!”
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:19 pm
@Redbaiter – give up mate, you’re trying to argue intelligently and pose relevant points to people who’re incapable of remotely understanding such concepts. As Viking 2 said above -”this isn’t about rights, it’s about responsibilities.”
I hope someone will lay complaint with the Speaker. Norman’s actions prove he’s not representative of either parliament or the country, so he should be cast forth from the place – hopefully, with the remainder of his rag-tag party as well. We might see some progress thereafter, on matters that have been consistently impeded by the mere presence of the Greens.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
China’s military expenditure as percentage of GDP is significantly lower than that of the United States and Russia, and slightly lower than that of France and Great Britain.
http://tinyurl.com/2bbmcqw
In absolute expenditure China’s military spending is a little above France and Britain, but seven times less than the United States.
http://www.globalissues.org/article/75/world-military-spending
Given China’s recent modern history of having suffered invasion from Japan, Great Britain, France, Russia, Germany, and others, it is understandable that she will spend some money on protecting her vast territory.
Note that China does not have one aircraft carrier, whereas the United States has over 10, and Britain two.
The United States operates over 700 foreign military bases. China none.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Redbaiter – “Get this dumbarse. I don’t need brain dead know nothing left wing punks spoon fed commie propaganda like you “putting things in perspective” for me.”
What a classy and intelligent reply.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:32 pm
I’ve just watched the news clips – it is quite clear that Norman assaults some chinese dude right at the start and then starts advancing on the official party. He’s bloody lucky he wasn’t face planted. Seems to me that Norman went beyond the right to protest and 1. intefered with security (local DPS and police might know that he is just some harmless hippy trying to speak like a Rhys Darby clone but the Chinese would just see some random nutter who has already shoved one of their people coming at their protectee like some sort of deranged thunderbird) and 2. he is guilty of really bad manners. That might seem trivial compared to the issue of Tibet but it rankles none the less.
Also do the Greens protest in support of Taiwan’s right to independence or is that not allowed because the US provides a security guarantee there?
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:35 pm
Zhumao, thank you for your kind words of wisdom. The data you have provided clearly indicates that Rebaiter’s concern/opposition to Chinese military expansion is unwarranted and dumb-founded.
It is a classic tale of ‘do as I say, and not as I do’. America is concerned about the rate of China’s military growth and yet it has provided little provision to reduce the size of the American military and continues to sell weapon’s to it’s allies and foe’s.
China has the same right to a military as America, Britain, Israel, Russia and Australia do.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
To Mr David Farrar:
It would be good to insert the link to the actual video of this incident to your main article.
http://tinyurl.com/34u3wyb
In this way bloggers will be able to make an informed response, rather than just relying on other peoples interpretation of the event.
Thank you.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:37 pm
i’ve watched the ginga whingers video clip now – why did he rush the Vice President? Why did he tip of TVNZ that he would be making a scene, and I noted how “gimme my flag back” in a whiny australian accent isnt really a very dignified message to be leaving anybody – reminded me of a squabble at kindy.
If he had tried this on a US President he would have been flat on his back with a gun in his face. Seems to me that our police failed quite badly here, they let a breach of Presidential security take place. Its not just bad manners, its bloody amateur hour.
It cannot have made a good impression on our new Chinese overlord.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:43 pm
Zhumao, thank you for your kind words of wisdom. The data you have provided clearly indicates that Rebaiter’s concern/opposition to Chinese military expansion is unwarranted and dumb-founded.
Thank you for your kind words Fale.
I like to simply ‘seeking truth from facts’
Regards,
Vote:Zhumao
June 19th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
@ nigel6888 – I suspect that Russel is goibng to get lots of “Gimme my flag back” interjections in the House from this day forward, so there is an element of karma at work ….
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
“America is concerned about the rate of China’s military growth and yet it has provided little provision to reduce the size of the American military and continues to sell weapon’s to it’s allies and foe’s.”
America has a democratically elected government. This is an extremely salient fact that seems to be constantly overlooked by those writing here in support of communist totalitarian dictatorship that holds power by killing and jailing any citizens who speak or act for democracy.
If the American people want to remain free when thugs like the Chinese government stalk the globe they’d be idiots to cut military spending. (As that commie fuckwit and traitor Obama has done.)
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
“I like to simply ’seeking truth from facts’”
Yep, that’s why you’re flat out like a lizard drinking censoring the internet and so many other information sources.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 1:03 pm
Oh dear, not again. From a tantrum throwing gay disgraced MP to a protesting silly green MP who bleated out, ‘oy give me back my flag!’.
What a joke. What’s next? Who is next to make an idiot of themselves eh?
http://www.angel-charlene.com
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 1:05 pm
And another salient fact is that they are the emerging global superpower. We are seeing a geopolitical shift in the centre of global power. The US is declining and from all indications she will be a shadow of her former self by 2040-50. Unless something happens to change the equations but nothing I can see is going to do that. I think that Moscow and Shanghai will replace NY and London as centres of global finance. Not so confident about London as she is the gateway to Europe and gets a lot of Mid-East traffic as well, but I am confident that NY will gradually decline. I said confident I didn’t say happy.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 1:11 pm
GPT1>he is just some harmless hippy trying to speak like a Rhys Darby clone
Comment of the day. I love the “Rhys Darby” bit. Spot on!
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
“This is an extremely salient fact that seems to be constantly overlooked by those writing here in support of communist totalitarian dictatorship that holds power by killing and jailing any citizens who speak or act for democracy.”
So in your opinion, in order to pursue military expansion in an attempt to undermine regional tension, one has to be democratic by Western standards?
Unfortunately, I have to disagree entirely. In fact, I would argue that even American official’s would disagree. The current relationship between America and China is healthy and strong. America recognises the potential that a rapidly expanding Chinese military force can eventually weild; but it has produced little in rhetoric, position or policy to suggest that it strongly disagree’s with China’s expansion policy or that it argues that China has no right to do so as the beacon of an ‘undemocratic governorship’. In fact, even the United Nations has spoken few word’s towards the Chinese expansion policy. Which begs the question, if China was the tyranny that you claim it is, why does the United Nations continue to welcome it’s activity? does the UN condone tyranny and oppression? does America?
China plays an active role in Western, international affairs today. One has to therefore ponder whether your opinion has stood the test of time. A Chinese delegation was recently received in Wellington, Chinese-NZ relations have been very healthy. Why is the NZ Government rather quiet on China’s human rights’ and democracy record? is this a sign of tolerance? or is this New Zealand putting aside differences for the sake of what’s right as a collective, global society?
Better yet, when has America every rated number 1 in the Global Peace Index? (USA 2010: 85th), the Corruption Perceptions Index? (USA 2010: 19th), the Democracy Index? (USA 2010: 18th). Most people would argue that America is the beacon of Western democracy, these sources would argue otherwise.
The hypocracy of the West is painfully embarassing.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 1:29 pm
“Unfortunately, I have to disagree entirely.”
I’m meant to be impressed by that?
“even the United Nations has spoken few word’s towards the Chinese expansion policy.”
I’m meant to be impressed by that???
“A Chinese delegation was recently received in Wellington,”
I’m meant to be impressed by that??
These people are lying communist thugs who murder and imprison their own people, those who dare to speak and act for democracy, and the day I write one word here in support of this kind of tyranny is the day I put a revolver to my right temple and pull the trigger.
I’m not impressed by any propaganda coming from that disgraced bunch of tyrants and despots called the UN, I’m not impressed by partisan declarations from politically compromised scammers and their bogus “indexes”, and I’m least of all impressed by the words of useful idiots like you who abuse our democracy by cheering for totalitarian scum who would take that democracy away in an instant if the opportunity ever presented.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 1:30 pm
I have no interest to ‘impress’ you, let me assure you of that.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
Am I the only one who is amused by Norman yelling: “China, don’t bring your undemocratic ways to my country!” in an Australian accent?
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 2:01 pm
Russel Norman can go to hell.
He leads a party that voted for the Electoral Finance Act. He leads the only party to vote against its repeal. That act was a direct assault on democracy and right to free speech. It isn’t nearly good enough to complain about free speech when you have that sort of voting record. Shame on the Greens.
This is absolutely not a free speech issue. If it is, then insulting a mate and having my teeth punch out is also a free speech issue. Russel forgets free speech means you have a right to disagree and respond.
Norman is unquestionably a smart guy. He knows the deal. Be as provocative as possible, incite an incident, make sure the cameras are rolling, watch the Greens polls go up.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
ben, agree. He also leads a party with the following track record:
2003: P (Methamphetamine) reclassified as a Class A drug – only the Greens opposed
2006: Opposed an increase to the Drinking Age
2005: Intentional Possession of Child Pornography -Only the Greens opposed the maximum penalty being 5 years – wanted it lower at 2 years
2007: Want to decriminalise Marijuana
The 2005 one particularly angers me. The Greens are freaks and weirdoes. NZ does not need them.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 2:25 pm
“NZ does not need them.”
..and don’t forget the shit they indoctrinate our kids with, in the same fashion as every totalitarian band of thugs out there.
They care about democracy and they’re indoctrinating children???
Fucking frauds.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 3:13 pm
and don’t forget the smacking legislation that now criminalize’s good parents and youth rates the discriminate against young people. Oh yes the greens are everybody’s mates.
Out and out control communists. Muldoon would have banned them. Ha
How much were those snails each ??
When does the ETS start to cost NZ families more than the wage rises that they have had in four years?
Impressive record.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 4:01 pm
So Rissols protest was just a publicity stunt… for Rissol… shameless man.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 4:08 pm
and dont forget how violent the watermelons really are;
“toad (2289) Says:
Vote:June 18th, 2010 at 9:33 pm
“Glad it was Russel there, and not me. I would have been very tempted to deck the security guy”
June 19th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
Is Norman a Doctor or is he simply a Phd?
Vote:and if he has Phd, what’s the discipline?
Probably self aggrandizement.
June 19th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
The difference between Donald and Norman… Donald stood by his convictions by putting some of his own money up towards the tibetans and other courses… Norman merely grandstands for photo ops at the tibetans and others expense… like most Greens today all show and no subtance.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
i think his doctoral thesis was ‘how to piss righties right off’…
(how’s he doing..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 5:52 pm
@ Redbaiter 11:36 am
FFS, for the first time in my life, I have to say I agree with Redbaiter.
(Not that I accept, like he does, that the US is a paragon of democracy, I might add).
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
understandable…
you are both totalitarians…
..after all…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 6:20 pm
Ironic aint it, the co leader of the only party to have stood for the retention of the free speech curtailing EFA, complains his right to free speech inhibited.
Vote:The only party to have avowed communists in their ranks make a protest against the supreme comunist controlled nation.
A man (word used advisedly) who is part of our supreme legal body and an integral part of formng and upholding the law shows contempt for New Zealand law by inciting “affray”.
Where was Comrade KLocke during this brave challenge against the chicoms, did comrade Norman have his total support.
His status as an M P was the only reason for his being able to do what he did from where he did it.
Show due respect to a visitor, not very likely, he’is a bloody Aussie FFS, bet even they were glad to be rid of him.
He was so lucky when he got that close to the delegation he wasn’t flattened and sat on by the security detail, I considered the response very restained.
June 19th, 2010 at 7:10 pm
Only mystery about all this is “where was Bradford, the screeching harpy”?
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 7:37 pm
Why doesn’t this Australian go to China to protest there and see where it gets him?
Since Russel commited an act of treason by sabotaging New Zealand’s national interests with China the only course of action left for John Key is to deport Norman back to Australia Sans New Zealand citizenship.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:14 pm
In the same way that Wed Wussell is perfectly entitled to his right to protest, the Chicom security men were perfectly entitled to protect their client from an insane aggressive ginger man who, for all they know, could have been armed. And this is coming from someone who supports Tibetan independence, though for more cynical reasons – the undermining of China’s territorial integrity.
I like the idea of GD’s Young Labour contingent defending the GRORIOUS CHINESE EMPIRE against Western interests as well. Party of treason? Oh yes.
Vote:June 19th, 2010 at 9:55 pm
“Well, if the corpses from Tiananmen square, those brave Chinese people who rose up for democracy, could come back to life and speak out, I reckon they’d have a slightly different view on that.”
Tiananmen square was a very complicated issue I wouldn’t bother to talk much about it. There are many young and innocent life lost (even some soldiers) and not just on the square – but I wouldn’t say most of them are “brave Chinese rose up for democracy”. Chinese people have never really rose up for democracy. Nearly 2500 years of history under influence of Confucius with occasional sparks of rebellion is such a burden on the new country established 60 years ago.
Just wondering why no one made a fuss about Thai government shooting the red shirts.
Vote:June 20th, 2010 at 10:55 am
Chinese security acted with admirable restriant against somebody they may or may not have known, who was abusing his position as an MP to put himself in a place to create a disturbance of a diplomatic event. Completely disgusting behavour on the part of Norman, but what can you exprect from a small group with little influence. Rod Donald had brains and knew how to do things properly, not the current fool. The Speaker should have Norman on the mat for bringing disrepute on Parliament.
Vote: