Fiscal Foolery
AP reports:
New estimates from the White House on Friday predict the budget deficit will reach a record $1.47 trillion this year. The government is borrowing 41 cents of every dollar it spends.
That’s just madness. People are focused on Europe crashing, but I am equally focused on the US crashing again.
Thanks God the situation in NZ is not this dire. Remember the US situation when certain politicians call for more spending.
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Tags: deficit, United States
July 25th, 2010 at 10:20 am
When you add in the states unfunded pension liabilities, Fannie and Freddie, the Fed’s massive expansion of its balance sheet etc. the situation in America is pretty dire. Interesting watching Bernakes testimony when most of the questions were about Greece and Europe. Being overtly patriotic is a convenient fig leaf, and of course having all the rating agencies under your jurisdiction is a plus.
July 25th, 2010 at 10:28 am
DPF said…
Thanks God the situation in NZ is not this dire. Remember the US situation when certain politicians call for more spending.
It will be if National’s thirst for more spending in things like fast broadband goes ahead.
July 25th, 2010 at 10:31 am
Imagine the riots that’ll go down when they (the US Govt) even mention austerity measures!
How will all those government employees be able to afford their big screens then?!
July 25th, 2010 at 10:43 am
Socialism by stealth
1. Never admit you are a socialist.
2. Take advantage of any financial crisis, if the crisis is not sufficiently bad enough to warrant socialist policy then borrow and spend as much as you can to deepen the crisis.
3. Blame your predecessor.
4. Curry favour with the media.
5. When the nation is teetering on the edge of financial ruin bring in sweeping socialist policy saying “there is no alternative”
6. Appoint as many hard left judges as possible.
July 25th, 2010 at 10:47 am
Fot, I’ll add to your list, Blame Capitalism.
Here is an excellent article from Mises.
The Myth that Laissez Faire Is Responsible for Our Present Crisis
It is a must read for misguided leftists who have blamed capitalism for the recent financial crisis.
July 25th, 2010 at 10:48 am
” Thanks God the situation in NZ is not this dire. ”
NZ is borrowing $80 million a day that seems pretty dire to me.
July 25th, 2010 at 10:48 am
meanwhile, the plebs get long jail terms for fraud and financial mis management.
no accountability in government.
July 25th, 2010 at 10:55 am
Obama, the community organiser and socialist is doing his best to destroy the US economy. Prime example of an insider job, of what a fifth-columnist can achieve.
Read this: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/party-debt
July 25th, 2010 at 10:55 am
I agree totally with DPF and Pongo. The American people, those that are sane, know that the financial outlook is dire.Obama,the know all but incompetent renter of the WH, has lost touch with grassroot American feelings.
I don’t like the Tea Party movement but believe the basic principles of that movement have tremendous support around the USA except in the bankrupt states of California,New York,Michigan and Nevada.(Incompetent states ) And of course “NY Times”,”Washington Post” and “LA Times”
Obama’s positive changes are nil. Foreign policy sees America’s image at a very low level,bringing back the “Bring back George” message, just like the “Bring Back Buck cry in NZ”. Europe is deeply sceptical of the “annointed one”
What doesn’t help is the idiocy of Democrat leaders like Nancy Pelosi, living in her Washington DC and San Francisco time warp, who goes on flying in the face of public aprobrium about spending.Billions have been added to the national debt and trying to legislate financial probity. All the time the lawyers looking for ways to overcome the new laws.
Obama will exceed J.Carter as the worst president in the last 100 years. George Bush offered more leadership and less bungling than the “annointed” one B.H.Obama
By the way’ I do watch Fox News !!!!!!
July 25th, 2010 at 10:58 am
Incredibly, some of the states are in much worse shape.
There’s a well supported US article that shows a well to do couple (ie, net tax payers) in some states owe a total of about $1 million in personal, state and Fed debt.
JC
July 25th, 2010 at 11:02 am
If that wasn’t so sad it could be amusing. Foreign policy under GW was hardly a raging success, just left a couple of wars and a lot of international diplomats raging.
And the current financial mess didn’t just begin in January last year, it has become more precarious, but much of the deficit damage was already done by “Your Pet Goat”.
July 25th, 2010 at 11:06 am
The good news for the deficit is that Barry, Nancy and Harry are determined that the 2001 Bush tax cuts will be left to expire in January 2011, resulting in perhaps the largest tax increase in history (depending on how measured), so that may close the gap a little.
Of course there are some funny things going in with their comrades in the House and Senate – witness this article in the WSJ, Liberal Tax Revolt:
A commentator on one blog responded to this story: Ah, it’s bottom kissing season again in D.C
July 25th, 2010 at 11:09 am
“And the current financial mess didn’t just begin in January last year, it has become more precarious, but much of the deficit damage was already done by “Your Pet Goat”.”
The usual lie. The financial crisis was precipitated by unwise lending by Fannie and Freddie that the Bush government tried hard to control but was continually blocked in those efforts by the Democrats. That is the fact that the left here will cloud as much as possible, and twist and turn and try to avoid, but its the truth. Bill Clinton, the Democrats and Fannie and Freddie caused the financial crisis.
July 25th, 2010 at 11:10 am
Thanks God the situation in NZ is not this dire. Remember the US situation when certain politicians call for more spending.
Yes we have a lot to thank Michael Cullen and Helen Clark for.
July 25th, 2010 at 11:12 am
“just left a couple of wars and a lot of international diplomats raging.”
Yep, the left’s desire for stripping the US of its ability to defend itself trumps any need to dissuade terrorist states from attacking it and killing more than 3000 of its citizens.
Pete George is nothing but a stinking Communist propagandist.
July 25th, 2010 at 11:13 am
“Thanks God the situation in NZ is not this dire.”
Same thing people said in Greece.
July 25th, 2010 at 11:16 am
Didn’t Neville Key express his admiration for the incompetent Obama a few months ago?
July 25th, 2010 at 11:23 am
And eight years of GW was all planting roses. With too many thorns, and not enough flowers. GW’s tax cuts and war spending of course had nothing to do with it.
The US quagmire goes back a long time, prior to GW (but he didn’t help), trying to blame it all on the last two years and one president last century is very weak.
How many US citizens have lost their lives in Iraq?
July 25th, 2010 at 11:24 am
Thanks God the situation in NZ is not this dire.
And how long will our economy last if the US and Europe crash?
We have no real control of our destiny, I guess we could still feed ourselves but then again almost all dairy farmers are up to their eyeballs in debt and would quickly go broke.
Fot, I’ll add to your list, Blame Capitalism.
Ha! no no, the crisis wasn’t anything to do with unbridled greed was it.
This crisis shows very well that greed is the capitalist systems greatest weakness, where the desires of the individual come at the expense of the whole.
I am no fan of socialism but those of a socialist ambition have been handed an opportunity on a platter by the rampant greed of the capitalist system.
Denying the fact will only ensure important lessons are not learnt.
July 25th, 2010 at 11:27 am
The Fed is trying to re-inflate the US economy with it’s TARP stimulus. This is failing and it will seek more stimulus through the Government. But the Senate will reject it. This will probably lead the US into a deflationary spiral as all the IOU’s of the US start to unravel.
This is going to affect the whole global economy as we are all connected now. News of Peter Bils complaints about expensive NZ prices is a sign deflation has not hit NZ yet, as it has in the UK, US and Europe. We are stuffed, deflation is coming to a store near you as exports and tourism plummet. Top economists in the US are praying the Fed can bring inflation back to the US, the next twelve months are going to be crucial.
July 25th, 2010 at 11:36 am
Megan McArdle has a bit to say about the government’s role in the housing bubble that seems to be the root cause of the fiscal calamity that the US is facing.
July 25th, 2010 at 11:40 am
Despite California being the headline act for left-wing insanity on many fronts, I tend to focus more on my old home state of Illinois, mainly because I get occasional emails from friends and family asking me and my wife when we will be returning to live there.
The short answer is, not any time soon. This used to cause some puzzlement as I’d led a very good life for many years in Chi-town. However, they’re all far more understanding now in the face of things like these:
Illinois stuck in a ‘historic, epic’ budget crisis
Which then leads to this:
Moodies downgrades Illinois bonds
There was an article in the Chicago Sun-Times (link now broken or dead) that used more plain language:
Borrowing short-term money to fund long-term pension liabilities. To nobody’s great surprise the Illinois legislature recently went home for their vacation, leaving billions of spending unfunded.
US Federal debt estimate – $14 trillion.
State and local debt estimate -$2.5 trillion
Finally, of course, it leads to this: Illinois Stops Paying Its Bills, but Can’t Stop Digging Hole
I think it’s past the point of no return in Illinois. If you fired all the Illinois state employees you’d save about $4billion per year off the budget, which would not come close to closing the gap.
By the same token, people will no longer wear tax increases because they just don’t believe the money will actually be used to close the gap – that it will simply be used to continue the spending insanity.
Death spiral time for Illinois.
The sad fact is that one can get something survivable out of a bankruptcy – the only problem is that a State cannot be bankrupted – so it just has to crash and then re-build from scratch, and judging from what two teacher friends in Chicago tell me (to which these articles give the context) that’s exactly where it’s headed.
July 25th, 2010 at 11:43 am
“Yes we have a lot to thank Sullen and the Dear Leader for”. Don’t you hate those Sunday morning hangovers Micky? Have another Chardonnay, you’re hallucinating .
July 25th, 2010 at 11:45 am
Muldoon tried this and just about made us third world. We needed radical change to get NZ back to being a basket case.
Roger Douglas for President! (or at least Treasury Secretary.)
July 25th, 2010 at 11:49 am
“How many US citizens have lost their lives in Iraq?”
Not as many as in Obama’s Chicago.
And what a dumb fucking question anyway. For fuck’s sake you’re hopeless.
July 25th, 2010 at 11:49 am
That’s an argument that unfortunately still resonates at the Federal level – GFC, Wall Street, CDS’s, etc – but read those articles on Illinois and tell me that it’s the result of corporate greed!
Illinois and California are the poster children for what happens when greed (which always exists in the human soul) is channeled in a socialist system.
Nothing is as greedy as someone getting something for free, and no Wall St CEO’s greed is as boundless as the greed for political power. Combine the two and you have Illinois, where the limiting factor is not competitors, or your customers getting fed up with being ripped off, but the simple limit of exponential growth with no limits aside from eventual exhaustion.
Like I said – crash and burn, just like the old Soviet-style economies.
July 25th, 2010 at 11:55 am
“Remember the US situation when certain politicians call for more spending.”
.
Or call for more borrowing.
July 25th, 2010 at 12:02 pm
Stunning day for bike ride along the waterfront and ice cream, but first – even though it was his usual mindless trolling – I should address this crack from Mickley My-Lips-Are-Glued-To-Labour’s-Butthole Savage
I actually am grateful that they continued the practices of Douglas, Richardson and Birch, in paying off the National Debt.
I’m not grateful to them for continuing to build up old Government institutions and create new ones that simply act as permanent engines for creating the sort of spiraling government spending we see in Greece, Spain, Illinois, California, the UK and so forth.
No doubt Bill English and co will “starve” the beast for a few years (meaning they’ll only allow government spending to grow at 2-3% per year), but once they’re turfed out in 2014 or 2017 and Mickey’s beloved Labor returns to power, all the engines Mickey created will still be sitting there, idling, just waiting for that high-octane boost that will push us into the stratosphere of prosperity by 2030.
July 25th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
“Nothing is as greedy as someone getting something for free, and no Wall St CEO’s greed is as boundless as the greed for political power.”
Tom is right Shunda. It was not capitalism, it was crony capitalism, AKA socialism.
(for example, the people who made the most out of Fannie and Freddie [paying themselves completely unwarranted multi-million dollar bonuses] were long time Democrat supporters and pals of Bill Clinton)
July 25th, 2010 at 12:08 pm
those nasty capitalists forced the government to borrow all that money that doesnt exist.
July 25th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
What disturbs me about both the American and New Zealand governments is how little both are doing to stimulate the ecconomy, and the report that 41% is being borrows despite doing little or nothing is really dreadful. On the other hand I wonder if and when the world will wake up to the point that capitalism’s continual expansion cannot continue indefinitely and a different approach to the matter needs to be found and adopted.
It is obvious that there are too many people on planet earth for a neutral progress to be attempted. This is not commie socialism but just simple common sense and awareness of the reality of the situation mankind finds itself in.
Apart from the small ‘district’ wars currently under way there is no ‘natural’ reduction of excess population such as for instance, my current reading, the Mediteranean sea war of the sixteenth century, and the trench warfare of WWI. I don’t advocate a researgence of similar but rather the more humane approach of limiting population growth and spreading the benefits of the west across more of the worlds population than occurs today. If we have to give up our cellphones and 3DTV etc so be it.
July 25th, 2010 at 12:18 pm
the only thing the government should do to stimulate the economy would be to reduce its influence.
July 25th, 2010 at 12:19 pm
This a great one page summary of USA federal and state debt
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
July 25th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
The trouble with Fannie and Freddie was that the good intentions of the American left in setting them up didn’t organise the environment to accomodate the likelihood that the very poor being given houses, I’d guess far too grand for their circumstances and therefore expensive, that they could afford. Far better would have been to build ‘state’ housing for people who don’t have the knowledge and resources to own but can rent. It was left wing well intensioned foolishness back in Clinton’s reign, compounded by GWB not attempting serious corrective measures, and the whole capitalism rush for more and more which built up to huge mess of self interest rather than pragmatic approaches to the problem. But of course self interest is the prime homo sapien mover, like all animals. So it will continue until earth collapses and puts an end to the sorry experiment by nature of the HS. Meanwhile fornicate, drink and be merry.
July 25th, 2010 at 12:26 pm
Tom is right Shunda. It was not capitalism, it was crony capitalism, AKA socialism.
So the whole “Chardonnay socialist” thing?
Is it possible that it was a bit of both?
Like I said, I am no fan of socialism, but a sense of entitlement does not appear to be linked to one particular ideology over another.
I see the constant desire for “things” as the fuel that drives this fire and those taking political advantage of it are simply grabbing the opportunity handed to them.
There appears to be a general lack of ethics that has crept into the business world and until people identify this as destructive it is hard to see how anything can really change.
July 25th, 2010 at 12:32 pm
tom hunter so when the going got a bit tough in the USA you bailed out and went to a socialist country so you would be covered by their safety net ?
Americans used to have balls, but now with the deficit a lot lower in percentage terms than in 1946 too many of them just sit and whine, oh whoa is us.
California, maybe if California got all their federal tax money back less what goes on defence etc instead of handing it over to poor conservative states they would be a bloody sight better off.
July 25th, 2010 at 12:33 pm
Fot (26) Says:
July 25th, 2010 at 10:43 am
Socialism by stealth
1. Never admit you are a socialist.
2. Take advantage of any financial crisis, if the crisis is not sufficiently bad enough to warrant socialist policy then borrow and spend as much as you can to deepen the crisis.
3. Blame your predecessor.
4. Curry favour with the media.
5. When the nation is teetering on the edge of financial ruin bring in sweeping socialist policy saying “there is no alternative”
6. Appoint as many hard left judges as possible.
these are not socialist policies; this is the line pursued by the “Chicago School” and its disciples in Argentina, Chile, Indonesia, et al.
Jakarta is coming.
July 25th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
“There appears to be a general lack of ethics that has crept into the business world”
For fuck’s sake, its hardly a problem that is isolated to or been caused by “the business world”. The left had to destroy morality to make socialism acceptable, and that they have done. They have destroyed the moral fibre of society and that this has resulted in some increased lack of integrity in the commercial sector is hardly surprising.
July 25th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
“these are not socialist policies”
Oh yeah, only 100 million people murdered by their own governments so far, but socialism still deserves another chance. Its just a matter of tweaking things a bit. Communist wanker.
July 25th, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Damn but this is funny, dubya tosses billions to the banks and all the reich wingers believe it is the right thing to do.
A well tanned bloke does the same and you are up in arms, tell me, do you have trouble typing while you are wearing the white sheets ?
July 25th, 2010 at 12:48 pm
“if California got all their federal tax money”
You’re another third rate communist moron. California has already been bailed out by massive federal loans. Its problems though can all be sheeted home to one circumstance, and that is it is controlled and run by Progressive morons who were voted in to power by propaganda sucking Journolist playthings and losers like you Hori.
(How does it feel to be so completely manipulated by 400 commies posing as journalists?)
July 25th, 2010 at 12:53 pm
“Damn but this is funny, dubya tosses billions to the banks and all the reich wingers believe it is the right thing to do.”
Get some information loser. Plenty on the right criticised Bush for his bailouts. Crawl out of your cave now and again.
(One day you might post something here that doesn’t come straight from Socialist Central Command. Its the same day pigs will fly 747s under Sydney Harbour Bridge.)
July 25th, 2010 at 12:58 pm
Tom Hunter Illinois ? we kiwis should give a flying fuck, why ?
I’m sure you are missing the good old confederate, you know the place where blacks know their place, behind a pickup.
Thought about going back, just think of the fun you are missing.
July 25th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
fucking funny, redbaiter on a sunday. Get a clue, dipshit. Fox makes up the news, read a bit wider than the right wing play book and open your eyes to the reality that the right is simply a conglomeration of liars, thieves and charlatans. No wonder you fit right in, while still sucking from the public teat.
July 25th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
For fuck’s sake, its hardly a problem that is isolated to or been caused by “the business world”.
I didn’t say it was caused by the business world, I said it has crept into it. This issue has two prongs to it – the responsibility of governments to govern wisely and the responsibility of the individual to live their lives wisely.
It is not wise to ever borrow more than can be paid back, yet everybody has and still is doing it.
Greed is linked to both socialism and capitalism and is the cause of all this mess.
If people’s greed is the driving factor then that is what needs to be addressed, the ruling political ideology of the day will simply be the one that gives people what they want as quickly as possible, people no longer give a shit about the future of their kids or their country any more.
The void will be filled by something.
July 25th, 2010 at 1:02 pm
Neil 10:55am:
We can tell. And we’re not going to refudiate it.
July 25th, 2010 at 1:08 pm
“No wonder you fit right in, while still sucking from the public teat.”
You people wonder why you get no respect and are only subject to contempt and disdain. You never have anything but lies, smears and cowardice, and its not only instanced by the above, but by your use of multiple nicks to try and beat the demerits system. You’re proven to be a sneaking coward and a liar again and again and again, and yet you want people to believe in your system of government. Only someone suffering from mental illness could subscribe to such unrealistic expectations and flawed strategies. Totally irrational.
July 25th, 2010 at 1:15 pm
“It is not wise to ever borrow more than can be paid back, yet everybody has and still is doing it.
Greed is linked to both socialism and capitalism and is the cause of all this mess.”
You haven’t thought about this much, have you? Individuals borrow because either they feel they have no choice or because they feel confident they will be able to pay it back (or at least keep up with the necessary interest payments).
Sometimes they are wrong. Predicting the future is always going to be guesswork that can go wrong, either personally or for a business. Your “greed” is another person’s hope and aspiration. Without it, we still live in the trees and die very young.
The reprehensible borrowing is where commitments are made deliberately on behalf of others for immediate personal or political benefit and where the future adverse consequences are well understood but ignored.
That is a characteristic of Governments.
July 25th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
Mickey Savage posted at 11.10:
Yes indeed, thanks to them for both fucking off out of NZ politics. Pity it didn’t happen earlier.
July 25th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
tristanb, tsk tsk, making fun of the 21st century Bard
Dear god that woman is thick, no wonder she is loved in flyover country.
July 25th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
Redbaiter (10,613) Says:
July 25th, 2010 at 1:08 pm
“No wonder you fit right in, while still sucking from the public teat.”
You people wonder why you get no respect and are only subject to contempt and disdain. You never have anything but lies,
…
I am yet to see any evidence of you undertaking any concrete efforts to contribute to the nationa’s economy. I maybe wrong, in which case, point out my error and I will applogise. But I still believe you are a leech on society, pushing your anrrow right wing agenda while benefitting from the work of those you despise.
July 25th, 2010 at 1:35 pm
It’s even worse than that Grumpy: she’ll actually appear behind you if you stand in front of a mirror and say Corpseman, Corpseman, Corpseman
July 25th, 2010 at 1:38 pm
“I am yet to see any evidence of you undertaking any concrete efforts to contribute to the nationa’s economy. ”
I’m yet to see any evidence that you’re not a child molester, but that is no grounds for me to allege you are.
“I will applogise.”.
Fuck off. I don’t need or accept apologies from lowlife vermin and trolls. If you were not an amoral Progressive, you would understand there are lines you do not cross, and once you cross them, no apology can put you back behind that line.
July 25th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Suddenly politicians and allies such as Brash and the columnist Hickey are highlighting pension problems, deficits, and world economic woes.
Wonder why? These problems have been there for years, now.
Ah, that’s right, higher GST and the carbon tax are imminent.
Get the plebs’ mind off the imminent, locally inflicted pain.
July 25th, 2010 at 2:02 pm
Actually – many right wingers hated the bailouts. They are anathema to the whole concept of ‘responsibility’. This one certainly did.
July 25th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Just finished a 3 week trip travelling across the US from East to West.
Almost every hotel we stayed at (18) was only about 25% full (Late June to Mid July) LA was a dump – cracked roads, smelly rubbish everywhere. A total feeling that it was 20 years past its best. New YOrk city wasn’t much better – rubbish everywhere.
Most cities cut their independent day fireworks down to save money. A lot of the TARP money appears to have been spent upgrading the interstates – great for us driving but I cant see much return on the borrowing.
The food over there is crap I can see why they are so overweight
A lot of houses for sale everywhere we went.
Probably not a great country to invest in for a while but the trip was a lot of fun
Especially the Grand Canyon and the Niagara falls
July 25th, 2010 at 2:48 pm
Thanks God the situation in NZ is not this dire…. Yet.
We’re to small to reliant on exports and the free market economy not to be immuned… from the Worlds financial sneezes and flu’s.
July 25th, 2010 at 3:24 pm
tom hunter it’s Corpsman you thick sod.
July 25th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Brian Smaller the right wingers were ranting that they wanted the cards to fall as they would no matter the personal cost, bullshit.
There are just too many posts on here from right wingers arguing that the bank bailout was justified.
July 25th, 2010 at 3:44 pm
With each new long, drawn out, and substantively empty speech, President Obama’s silver tongue has revealed a brain of mush. Most recently, Obama referred to a Navy corpsman as “corpseman”, since apparently the teleprompter has not yet incorporated pronunciations phonetically for Dear Leader
Sounds like Obama could really use a grumpyoldhori on his team
July 25th, 2010 at 3:46 pm
grumpyolhori: “There are just too many posts on here from right wingers arguing that the bank bailout was justified”
How many is too many? I count zero.
July 25th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
Obama doesn’t know what the fuck he is doing. Whats new?
It is a sad indictment on the US voting public that they voted for a completely inexperienced communist on the basis of speeches made up entirely of “change” and “hope”.
July 25th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
you’d think with money being in short supply the world over that democracies wouldn’t be giving so much of their taxpayers hard earned tax to outfits like this, non democratic that is.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/07/21/the_slow_death_of_palestinian_democracy?page=0,0
July 25th, 2010 at 3:53 pm
I haven’t seen a single one hori. Evidence? Or are you just full of shit as usual?
July 25th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
“How many is too many? I count zero.”
Never try and spoil a Grumpy/Turkish bayonet charge by quoting the truth RightNow!!
July 25th, 2010 at 4:00 pm
http://www.hudson-ny.org/1428/clueless-in-gaza
Is America about to go bankrupt?
I mean when we say we have assets the banks must be able to realise them.
What has America got that can be realised and at what rate?
I read about their spending tons of dosh on Islamists so they don’t kill their troops in Iraq and other places,
Is this just a case of that, paying them off with aid so they don’t cause trouble?
Isn’t that just a Protection tacket?
Giving in to thugs?
July 25th, 2010 at 4:00 pm
“There are just too many posts on here from right wingers arguing that the bank bailout was justified”
Then they aren’t “right wingers” they are creatures from Mussolinis Italy.
July 25th, 2010 at 4:38 pm
MikeNZ you may not know this but unlike the USA NZ did not send a shipload of Jewish people back to Germany to be gassed.
So you are ranting in the wrong country.
Want to do something about Muslims ? it is easy dear boy just go back to the USA and join the Army or Marines.
They will be happy to send you to the Helmland province.
July 25th, 2010 at 4:43 pm
nickb tell you what, go back and look through posts where right wingers were saying, let the cards fall as they will no matter what the personal cost.
Best of luck with that.
July 25th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
Every post Hori makes here follows the same desperate attention seeking pattern. He makes a false argument, attributes that argument to the right, and then argues against it. He’s just a troll.
July 25th, 2010 at 4:51 pm
It’s been a great day here. Hours in the sun, beautiful scenery and excellent ice cream.
So – let’s see what’s been happening on Kiwiblog with “Fiscal Foolery”……hmmm…..
Looks more like a GD: there’s the people time-warping out of the 1970′s with The Population Bomb……
Pete George racing to become the country’s first Kiwiblog-RSI claimant…..
A representative of the Tāngata Whenua Turkish Adoration Inc. (TWTAI, pronounced tutai, is a strange group, only one member as far as I can see). Lots of insults from the member along some equally strange lines………
Ah Ha
Comedy Gold
Though I see RightNow has spoiled it by explaining the joke. Shame on you RN, the thread could have had fun with that for hours before Grumpy caught on.
July 25th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
Give Grumpy some seabed and foreshore, (preferably near the Dardanelles) and he’ll be happy.
(So will we if it is really near the Dardanelles).
July 25th, 2010 at 5:25 pm
Grumpy
will you please get out of bed on the right side in the morning ! :0(
My point is the whole worlds in the shit financially but tons of OPM is being doled out nefariously.
Leave it in the hands of those that earnt it. yes?
July 25th, 2010 at 5:26 pm
But the deficit is good these days! Paul Krugman said so!
July 25th, 2010 at 5:57 pm
Hey Grumpy
how about our troops and monies going to support this then?
bet you will find it hard to find in the MSM.
How about a thread on useless uses of our hard earned money by our Government DPF?
http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/2010/06/28/an-open-letter-from-the-afghan-christian-community-to-the-body-of-christ/
July 25th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
You are the one asserting something completely untrue, so why don’t you back it up yourself?
Because you are full of shit, thats why. The only supporters of the bailouts were socialists and crony capitalists like your mate Obummer.
July 25th, 2010 at 6:02 pm
you tell him Nick.
The American people are going through hard times right now (all of their own doing of course) but they don’t need money wasted.
July 25th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
“Because you are full of shit, thats why. The only supporters of the bailouts were socialists and crony capitalists like your mate Obummer.”
Obummer’s a Maori? Well I’ll be fucked!
Here was me thinking he was a fucken Kenyan of Arabic extraction.
Same thing really when you get down to the nitty gritty.
July 25th, 2010 at 6:16 pm
You haven’t thought about this much, have you? Individuals borrow because either they feel they have no choice or because they feel confident they will be able to pay it back (or at least keep up with the necessary interest payments).
Yes Alan, Fredie and Fanny just forced all of those people to take out loans that… well.. with even the tiniest bit of brain engagement they would realise they couldn’t afford.
Everybody’s doing it so what the hell, right?
July 25th, 2010 at 7:25 pm
Fiscal Foolery… related to Tom Foolery perhaps?
(er, no offence to other toms..)
July 25th, 2010 at 7:41 pm
Many countries are borrowing flat out and are in debt up to their eyebrows. But someone must be doing a heap of borrowing and earning a lot off the interest payments.
July 25th, 2010 at 8:15 pm
SB, my understanding is that Freddie and Fanny were compelled by legislation to offer loans to more marginal borrowers. While US interest rates were very low they could afford them. Then interest rates doubled in 2004-5 and set off a housing market collapse and then a financial collapse.
The marginal borrowers were the least likely to understand the risks of rate changes. It wasn’t their greed, it was the misplaced “altruism” of the legislators that got them into trouble. The subprime layer on top just spread the disaster a lot further.
July 25th, 2010 at 8:22 pm
Oh. Hello Petty.
Nice to see you are not hiding your light behind a bushel in a closet etc.
July 25th, 2010 at 8:23 pm
2004-5? That’s odd. Obama would just about have still been living in Kenya then.
Johnboy, if you stopped to think about it you’d realise that you’re the one being petty. Repettedly.
July 25th, 2010 at 8:28 pm
Repettedly????Shit you are catching the double tt habit off me Petty.
July 25th, 2010 at 8:29 pm
Correct AW:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/23/paul.bailout/index.html
<blockquoteUnfortunately, the government's preferred solution to the crisis is the very thing that got us into this mess in the first place: government intervention.Government-sponsored enterprises Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were able to obtain a monopoly position in the mortgage market, especially the mortgage-backed securities market, because of the advantages bestowed upon them by the federal government.
Laws passed by Congress such as the Community Reinvestment Act required banks to make loans to previously underserved segments of their communities, thus forcing banks to lend to people who normally would be rejected as bad credit risks.
July 25th, 2010 at 8:29 pm
I hate labels.
In the USA in particular it is irrelevant who is in charge, the whole “left” v “right” argument is bollocks. You could morph the heads of the last 6 presidents of the US and their is no difference in them, they don’t actually have any input into the running of the place. Want to know who runs the US? Have a read of this piece on lobbyists.
“Government for Sale: How Lobbyists Shaped the Financial Reform Bill”
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,2000880,00.html
Many of those here who align themselves to the right have insisted that “the right” didn’t want the bailouts. So the recipients of bailout money in the “too big to fail” camp are socialists ore worse????? Excuse me while get my ribs strapped up. Sure, big Government is at fault but certainly not alone. Greenspan has more to answer for than either Bush or Obama, they are only the glove puppets. You need to know whose hand is up their arse and for that you have to follow the money.
Pure greed, incompetence and corruption are the 3 things mainly responsible for most of what has gone wrong in the financial markets in the last 10 years. The big financial institution’s ability to con/bribe/blackmail administrators of countries into believing the world would come to an end if they were allowed to collapse, has to be the biggest scam perpetuated in the history of the world.
July 25th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
Alan Wilkinson – and those selling the loans on commission would have been rubbing their hands with glee at the easy money. A lot of people did very nicely out of the whole scam. So can you say for sure if this was simply a misguided gesture by the liberals or would a handful of those lobbyists I referred to in my previous post have helped nudge it along?
I’ve said it before, when it doesn’t make any sense follow the money, cui bono? It wasn’t the people who lost their houses or their jobs.
The socialists got the power they wanted, the capitalists got the money they wanted and as usual, the average joe got bent over and ass fucked.
July 25th, 2010 at 9:56 pm
The US is in for 5-7 years of deflation as the first wave of baby boomers retires and the next wave focuses on debt reduction. Good time to not be in retail or highly leveraged property.
July 25th, 2010 at 11:22 pm
Does that mean land values could actually come down then? Would that also happen in NZ?
July 26th, 2010 at 3:39 am
“The financial crisis was precipitated by unwise lending by Fannie and Freddie that the Bush government tried hard to control but was continually blocked in those efforts by the Democrats.”
Bush had a Republican majority in Congress for 6 out of 8 years but everything that happened under his Presidency was really the Democrat’s fault?
“Remember the US situation when certain politicians call for more spending.”
And remember it if NZ is ever unlucky enough to have politicians start claiming that tax cuts always increase revenue, even when marginal tax rates are already fairly low. Thankfully that bullshit is mainly limited to people like Cheney.
http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2006/10/bush_vs_his_eco.html
July 26th, 2010 at 9:45 am
Who is responsible for this mess?
THEORY A: George Bush and the Republicans
THEORY B: Barack Obama and the Democrats
THEORY C: The whole damn lot of them
Personally. I go for theory C. And that being the case you have to wonder why over such a long period politicians have just kept on digging the hole deeper?
The answer to that is that it is a systemic problem. The US political system rewards politicians for short-sighted hole-digging, and punishes those who try to do anything sensible.
Nevertheless, the far better question to be asking now is: What the hell can be done about the mess to get out of it with minimum damage?
July 26th, 2010 at 9:51 am
kaya, I suspect you would find that commission selling is not easy money. Nevertheless, they were simply doing a job they were paid to do within the rules set for them. Fault lies much higher up the chain.
I agree with you on two things: labels are not very helpful, it is hard to argue Bush was better at financial management than Clinton; and corruption played a large role – big business and big Government are a toxic mix. They can only be held in check by a free press and transparency. By invoking the “War on Terror” Bush was able to shut out the disinfecting sunlight from his Government’s operation.
July 26th, 2010 at 10:19 am
Not sure. I’m not an economist, but have been reading a very interesting book on macro-economic trends (80 year innovation cycles, 60 year commodity cycles, 40 year inflation cycles etc)
July 26th, 2010 at 10:35 am
@Shunda – have a read of this: http://www.hsdent.com/debtcrisis072010.pdf. Supporting this guys arguments is that he’s been right in the past. Opposing them is he’s selling newsletter subscriptions insteading of borrowing to short the markets!
July 26th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Feanor
The facts are these.
Bubbles like those caused by Fannie and Freddie take time to build up steam. These two agencies didnt start buying large chunks of sub prime MBS (Mortgage Backed Securities) immediately or overnight. It was a gradual build up. It was the green light that their purchasers sent to the large Wall St bankers to syndicate sub prime MBSs on top of their already huge and largely safe A paper or conforming loan MBS portfolios. Bush spent 2002 and 2003 battling the post 9/11 recession. The explosion of sub prime lending where so much money was released to lend to non bank mortgage bankers and lenders (which they then one upped each other with increasingly generous lending terms) happened over a two year period 2004 – 2006 and into 2007. It took time for the excesses at Fannie and Freddie to become a threat to the whole banking system. By the time the Bush Administration realised they were dealing with a runway boom that needed to be constrained, they had lost control of the both Houses of Congress.
It is also important to note that Clinton appointee who headed Fannie Mae (by far the bigger of the two) Franklin Raines was pumping up the acquistion of sub prime paper because his bonuses came from the higher volumes of loans they bought. He pocketed in excess of $20 million in volume related bonuses before the GOP legislators began to look at reigning him in. But by now the key Democrats in the Senate were in the pocket of the sub prime mortgage industry. From 2002 to 2006 the Republicans had no way to break a Democrat filibuster in the Senate. Any legislative reform of the banking industry had to be a bi-partisan effort. Sen Chris Dodd (D – CT) was the ranking Democrat on the Senate Finance Committee. Pretty soon he was getting $100,000′s of donations from the likes of Countrywide (by the time the bubble burst the largest home lender in the US) not to mention he and various others key Dems all got sweetheart loans in the way of lower than market interest rates, no normal lending caps for their income and no fees. Dodds (and his House counterpart Democrat Barney Frank of MA) both signalled their lack of interest in any bi-partisan reigning in of Fannie and Freddie. They were not about to undermine Raines (who was seen a a successful BLACK executive – so PC got in the way here) nor were they about to kill the goose that was laying millions of golden eggs in the way of campaign contributions to Senate and House Dems on the respective banking committees.
As the bubble got bigger and more dangerous through 2007, John McCain (in consultation with the Bush White House) brought reform legislation to the Senate (with a Democrat co-sponsor even) and Dodd (now the Banking Committee Chairman since the Dems won control of both Houses of Congress in 2006) would not even allowed the Bill to be voted on in committee. Franks in the House promised the same if anyone tried to co-sponsor any reform legislation in the House. Barney Frank is on camera testifying to the Banking Oversight Committee as to the fiscal soundness of these agencies one year before the financial meltdown caused by the green light these same agencies had given to the profligate lending.
The net result – attempts by the Republicans to reign in the excesses were defeated for reasons of political correctness and partisan politics (not wanting to attack a seemingly successful black Clinton appointee) and for good old fashion gready pork barrel politics (not wanting to bite the hand that fed the campaign coffers with constraining legislation).
Perhaps Feanor you can suggest another course of action that was available to an Administration with insufficient votes to break a filibuster from a party with Senators so corrupted by the money that they were blind to the much needed bi-partisan changes that were so badly needed to more tightly regulate the actions of agencies who had quasi Federal Government backing and whose actions in buying parcels of sub prime loans set the tone for the entire marketplace.
He is a good short summary of all this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63siCHvuGFg
July 26th, 2010 at 1:52 pm
redbaiter wants another war,
to garland the rich, and what’s more,
austerity measures, federal love letters,
leave cardboard cribs like wet weet-bix,
fodder for management’s crack-whores.
With fingers of ice-cold steel,
measures each stroke with precision,
for more indentured labour,
the poor in a tortured vision.
July 26th, 2010 at 1:56 pm
Don’t Panic, Don’t Panic,
Mbama will get BP to pay and that will sort out all the problems.
July 26th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
Do you really want to know whay the US is going broke?
LA suburb residents march over high city salaries
The Associated Press
Sunday, July 25, 2010; 6:44 PM
BELL, Calif. — Several hundred angry residents from a modest blue-collar Los Angeles suburb marched Sunday to call for the resignation of the mayor and some City Council members in a protest sparked by the sky-high salaries of three recently departed administrators.
The residents of the city of Bell marched to Oscar’s Korner Market and Carniceria, owned by Mayor Oscar Hernandez, then to his home, demanding that he reduce his own six-figure compensation or quit.
They then did the same with some members of the City Council, with many marchers wearing T-shirts that read “My city is more corrupt than your city.”
“I don’t think they are taking it seriously. And we’re serious,” event organizer and longtime Bell resident Nestor Valencia, 45, told the Los Angeles Times. “They need to resign.”
The protest was organized by Bell Association to Stop the Abuse, a group founded after the Times reported that Bell’s city manager, police chief and assistant city manager were all being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, with city manager Robert Rizzo collecting a check of $787,637. All three resigned on Friday.
One in six residents of the city of 40,000 southeast of Los Angeles lives in poverty.
“This is a test for our community,” Valencia said. “There’s been a fiasco here.”
The newspaper also revealed that the mayor and three of the council’s four other members make about $100,000 a year, most of it in salaries for sitting on boards and commissions. Only Councilman Lorenzo Velez makes a modest salary of about $8,000 a year.
On Sunday, Velez issued a statement calling the other council salaries “unconscionable,” and joined the calls for resignations unless other council members accept the same money he makes.
The City Council has called an emergency meeting Monday to address the issue.
July 26th, 2010 at 3:49 pm
***Right of way is Way of Right (815) Says:
Do you really want to know whay the US is going broke?***
Well, in terms of California one reason is the influx of High School drop outs from Mexico.
“This is not an immigration problem, or even an illegal-immigration problem, per se. A strong case could be made that, in terms of educational achievement, industriousness, and entrepreneurial acumen, Asian immigrants to California have proven superior to white natives of the state. Therefore, if California were to experience a wave of mass immigration from Asia, its long-term economic prospects would be improved. Today’s Hispanic immigrants would probably have the same effect if they came from the top 10 to 20 percent of their society according to those same measures of human capital rather than from its bottom rungs. But the influx has instead been composed mainly of the poorly educated, the unskilled, and the illiterate. Such immigrants will likely soon dominate the state’s overall population and politics.
In 2005, the California K12 school system was 48.5 percent Hispanic, compared with 30.9 percent white. By now it is above 50 percent Hispanic. Two-thirds of kindergarten students were Hispanic, most of them unable to speak English.
For a closer glimpse of what’s in store for California, look at the Los Angeles Unified School District, the largest in California and the second largest in the country. Of its roughly 700,000 students, almost three-quarters are Hispanic, 8.9 percent are white, and 11.2 percent are black. More than half of the Latino students (about 300,000) are “English learners” and, depending on whether you believe the district or independent scholars, anywhere between a third and a half drop out of high school, following significant attrition in middle school. A recent study by UC Santa Barbara’s California Dropout Research Project estimates that high-school dropouts in 2007 alone will cost the state $24.2 billion in future economic losses….
Perhaps the most disingenuous myth about illegal immigrants is that they do not impose any cost on society. The reality is that even those who work and half do not, according to the Pew Hispanic Center cannot subsist on the wages they receive and depend on public assistance to a large degree. Research on Los Angeles immigrants by Harvard University scholar George J. Borjas shows that 40.1 percent of immigrant families with non-citizen heads of household receive welfare, compared with 12.7 percent of households with native-born heads. Illegal immigrants also increase public expenditures on health care, education, and prisons. In California today, illegal immigrants’ cost to the taxpayer is estimated to be $13 billion half the state’s budget deficit.”
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023