Pike River Day VII
Only one topic today. My thoughts, and I suspect most of our thoughts, will be on the families and friends of the victims.
I thought I would start discussion with some bouquets. I am very tempted to also do some brickbats, but I’ll save those for another day.
Peter Whittall has been amazing. In disasters like this the CEO of the mine would often be the villain, but Whittall’s humanity and compassion has been a beacon, combined with his straight talking and factual manner. I doubt there is a harder tribute to gain than the fact that when he walked out of the press conference where he announced the bad news, the media gave him a spontaneous round of applause.
I also have huge regard for Superintendent Gary Knowles. He had the unenviable job of being the focus of discontent over the frustration that a rescue operation was not launched. The reality is that these decisions are taken by consensus amongst the many experts who were involved. He did his duty well.
I watched the PM’s speech at 1830 yesterday (as did viewers of CNN, BBC etc) and was very moved by it. The PM captured our collective sense of loss. Also made the right decisions over adjourning Parliament after speeches about the tragedy, putiting flags at half mast and signally a full Commission of Inquiry. Gerry Brownlee has also been there on the grround throughout, saying the right things.
Big kudos also to those MPs who have been offering support, and not politicising a tragedy – especially Phil Goff and Damien O’Connor. The joint interview of Chris Auchinvole and Damien O’Connor was a nice symbol of how some things transcend politics. And being Leader of the Opposition can be a very tough role during a national tragedy, and Goff has shown his essential decency in his actions and comments. A couple of his MPs have not done so well, but as I said I will save the brickbats for another day.
Some may disagree with this, but I also give kudos to the NZ media. Maybe it took an Australian journalist to remind us, how good our media is by comparison, but I did like the outrage shown by NZ media as the Australian journalists made ridicolous comparisons to 9/11 etc. And while it was hard on the locals, having the media in Greymouth did allow the rest of NZ to be connected to what is happening, and follow the press conferences. Twitter, as usual, was the best source of up to the minute news. It also allowed journalists to share their raw emotions as events unfolded.
There are of course so many others who have done so much – the Red Cross, Air New Zealand, the local volunteers, the international experts. The only redeeming aspect of tragedies is how they do bring us all together.
UPDATE: You can donate to the Mayoral Relief Fund for the families of the victims at Give A Little. There can be fewer better local causes than this. Be generous.
November 25th, 2010 at 8:13 am
David, may I say what a gentleman you are? In this post you demonstrate the same decency which you have so ably noted in others. Very well written and very timely. Thank you.
November 25th, 2010 at 8:21 am
I’ve been a bit preoccupied to follow this as closely as others but my bouquet has to go to those who knew the men personally, and gave a glimpse of who these fine men were. Also like to acknowledge everyone who displayed good sense and decency on last nights thread.
November 25th, 2010 at 8:24 am
My complaint about the media is that if there was no news to report as there was for long periods of time, they should have said nothing instead of trolling through everyone who may have known one of the miners looking for a human interest story or in fact anything to fill up the hour of TV time. To me it became a macabre sort of vouyeurism. What benefit is there to anyone in asking some worried sick family member “how they are feeling” and “what do you think should be done” questions, and then showing those people’s grief, frustration and anger on TV.
November 25th, 2010 at 8:24 am
Well said.
November 25th, 2010 at 8:37 am
Yes, well said, and the right approach to take today.
Peter Whittall obviously deserves heaps of plaudits, as do Gary Knowles and Trevor Watts who were dissed a bit in today’s Herald editorial which I though was unfair.
The politicians showed that they can be human and not diametrically opposed on everything.
And yeah, the media generally did fine, a few quibbles (for another time) but I used a range of sources a lot and appreciated much of what they provided. And with so much coverage it was easy to switch over or switch off when something annoying came up.
November 25th, 2010 at 8:42 am
I’ll say what some are thinking but not wanting to wear the flack.
What if they are not all dead?
We get a second explosion, we get a bad report of the gas makeup and somebody decides that’s it. I don’t give in that easy. I want every effort to continue even if it only ends up confirming what was decided on day 6.
Sorry but if people survived the first blast (unknown but assumed) why would they not survive the second blast which as miners they would have known was likely. Looking at the map of the mine If people survived the first blast there are a number of places which would have sheltered them from the major effects of the second blast. And we know the loader driver was directly in the path of the first blast and survived.
We need the second hole asap and we need the Aussie robot in there. If we think they are all dead then there is no rsk f killing them by proceeding with haste (robots not putting people at risk). Let’s confirm what we think, rather than just assuming it.
November 25th, 2010 at 8:47 am
Good post David and I think you capture well the thoughts of everyone.
I think it is worth saying there are a lot of armchair experts who know or understand bugger all about mining. I hope they ow shut up and put a bit more faith in the real experts who do understand international best practice and it is because of their advice that we are not mourning the loss of life of another 20 more good men.
[DPF: We had that debate yesterday and it will continue. Can I suggest if people want to debate the pros and cons of whether a rescue could have been done, they do so in General Debate. I'd like this thread to be inclusive]
November 25th, 2010 at 9:11 am
badmac, Honestly I think you should leave it alone today. But just to stop anymore speculation I will explain the circumstance;
They are all dead and were all dead long before this second explosion – unfortunately. Whether they were all killed by the first explosion I do not know and we may never know. But, if they were not killed by the first explosion, they were asphyxiated by CH4 and CO.
Since the first explosion, it is clear a fire has continued to smoulder and in this time methane has continued to increase, however that methane will not ignite without oxygen. Drilling the first bore hole allowed oxygen to enter the mine, therefore lowering the methane content to a point where in all likelihood it will spontaneously combust, around 12% – which is what we saw yesterday, and would’ve occurred had anybody tried to mount a rescue.
Also, well said DPF. Knowles needs some PR training, but the poor bloke was only the public face of a collection of experts, ultimately, he was not running the show, but being the public face, he’s the one the uninformed will always attack.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:12 am
I don’t think there is a dry eye in Greymouth at the moment, seeing the flags around the country at half mast was quite emotional.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:15 am
Absolutely, he had a terrible job to do especially informing the families at the end there was no hope. That task would have been a horrific duty, far worse than facing the media afterwards. He certainly does not deserve the criticism he received.
Whithall was also a remarkably calm, professional yet human CEO.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:21 am
Even though he’s Australian, I’d like to nominate Peter Whittall for New Zealander of the Year. He embodies everthing this is good about mankind.
http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/11/cometh-hour-cometh-man.html
[DPF: I had much the same thought.]
November 25th, 2010 at 9:25 am
Peter Whittall was a true hero. Reassuring, compassionate to his men. It only all CEO were like him. I was less impressed with the Police. I think the Aussie journalist had a point. The police are not the correct agency to be coordinating a very complex operation such as this. I prefer the Armed services for a complex search and rescue operation such as this. The police are better at hunting down and arresting fugitives. Knowes is a decent enough chap but I got thie impression he was struggling with the complexity of this. I hope this gets consideration by the Commission of Inquiry. The pollies were fine, John key superb and so was Brownless. Paul Holmes gave him a big tick on q&a.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:28 am
It may well be that the inquiry recommends the police do not take charge in these types of missions in the future. But their brief was to in this instance, so they cannot be criticised for doing what the law requires them to do.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:30 am
Shunda, it will obviously felt most on the Coast but there is sadness all around the country. I think this has shaken many people from their modern stupor and made us think more about the basics, in communities, in life and in death.
All the flags I can see in downtown Dunedin are at half mast.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:32 am
Well written DPF – all we can ask at events like this is for the media to be respectful and act with dignity themselves.
Both Gary Knowles and Peter Whittall spoke & acted with measured dignity and respect at all times, even under provocation from the ignorant.
“Maybe it took an Australian journalist to remind us, how good our media is by comparison, but I did like the outrage shown by NZ media as the Australian journalists made ridicolous comparisons to 9/11 etc. ”
Reading this mornings Australian on line –
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/doomed-site-unsafe-from-the-beginning/story-e6frg6nf-1225960439428
Ean Higgins continues to push his own barrow and take keyboard potshots – what a selfish egotistical slug.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:34 am
Watching Auchinvole last night was rather like watching an interview with a British peer set to New Zealand to be Governor-General. Very interesting mannerisms, especially for 2010.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:36 am
[DPF: 100 demerits - good bye]
November 25th, 2010 at 9:47 am
ummm – probably more contempt here than ire. Uninformed blaming with no facts to try and score political points is not likley to be appreciated.
Some of the things you raise will be thoroughly investigated over the next few months, investigated properly by people with access to the best expertise. Political lackeys may even have a chance to have your say.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:48 am
ACC is one of the sacred cows of the labour party so let us see how they perform and include them in the Commission of Inquiry.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:48 am
Yep. Only bureaucrats care. Employers don’t.
The government certainly cared at Cave Creek; Erebus; and when it sent men to Gallipoli.
Just go away.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:48 am
Ummm
Wrong thread, wrong time. Provide a reference to the report on another thread so others can read it objectively.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:48 am
ummmm while I think you’re being a pillock you might also like to be aware that as of Mon/Tue Andrew Little was stating on 1ZB that there had been no issues raises with the union about Safety at Pike River, that the mine had a good Health and Safety committee of which the union was a full participant in.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:49 am
[deleted by DPF as comment it was responding to has been deleted. I agree with what you said though]
November 25th, 2010 at 10:02 am
Ummmmm I’m a leftie and if you are one too then you give the Left a bad name. This is not the thread, the place or the time. Take your rantings elsewhere. This is no time for politics and point-scoring. This is the day that the nation must grieve together. If you can’t realise that, you really are scum.
November 25th, 2010 at 10:04 am
The Police are the obvious choice for running an operation such as this; they have national coverage and the necessary authority; they just need training in disaster management (just as they do for armed offenders). To prefer the Army is facile; they have no training in leading diverse specialist teams nor in community liason.
It appears that AirNZ sent in a trauma team and is doing did a great job; I do hope that this forestalls Greymouth being flooded with nosey parker, cardigan wearing ‘victim support’ personnel.
Whittal and Knowles have done a great job; I do hope that Peter finds it possible to stay with the Company after what must have been an emotionally debilitating experience. If at all possible the mine should be resurrected. Perhaps now, DOC will be more sympathetic to disturbance to the flora and allow more ventilation shafts.
November 25th, 2010 at 10:24 am
Last time I checked this was the Pike River Day VII thread. Not the RIP thread.
I agree with keeping the two separate and keeping all the shit out of the RIP thread.
However, I still don’t see why I have to give up hope. Why can’t we just send the new Robot in and check. Yes it may explode, but its only a Robot. I am not advocating sending in people. I am not advocating that anybody has done anything wrong so far. I am just asking for conformation rather than more armchair experts telling me its so because they know.
We are Kiwis, we always root for the underdog, yes 99.9999% they are gone, but why not prove it.
It won’t do any harm.
November 25th, 2010 at 10:29 am
There’s a good post over on Public Address on this. Basically, the law says that the police are in charge in any emergency, unless it’s a previously-arranged exception (e.g. the fire service would be lead agency for a building fire). The point is to avoid turf wars between multiple agencies, without wasting time mediating an arrangement.
But that doesn’t mean the police are handling all the details. They will bring in experts and delegate to them.
November 25th, 2010 at 10:32 am
The police do not have the technical expertise to lead a complex operation such as this. More routine operations yes. For a serious complex operation with a high degree of technical knowledge, specialist equipment and logistics the armed services are what is required. Knowles is a decent chap but the complexity of this operation is beyond policeman plod.
November 25th, 2010 at 10:35 am
I sort of agree badmac, it would be great if it could be proven all 29 have died. But there is still a high% chance of major harm to anyone going in to the mine. It has exploded twice now, and no one can tell when it might go again.
Any robot is an extremely long shot. Although it’s a relatively small mine it’s a labrynth, men could be anywhere in there. Even if the mine is undamaged enough to negotiate every part of the tunnels it would be logistically very difficult with a tethered machine.
November 25th, 2010 at 10:41 am
@badmac :
Maybe the harm would be to the dead miners family and friends, by needlessly dragging out the process even longer.
They would not have ceased rescue operations if they thought there was the remotest chance of anyone still being alive.
I understand what you are saying though, it is very difficult to accept they are dead without evidence.
Absolute tragedy!!
November 25th, 2010 at 10:52 am
WHITTALL has related to PRC shareholders over the years in much the same manner as he has conducted himself during this tragedy. Without him as Mine Manager it is doubtful the mine would have reached production. His continued leadership would be crucial to it ever re-opening.
November 25th, 2010 at 10:54 am
Agree bouquets for all involved..
November 25th, 2010 at 10:55 am
“area commander for Tasman region” == “policeman plod”. Awesome.
Police don’t have technical knowledge? Appoint an operations manager who does! Lack logistics expertise? Appoint a logistics manager to handle that for you!
November 25th, 2010 at 10:59 am
It was clear that the mine had inadequate ventilation to remove the toxic gas build-up – why? That will be the big question for the Inquiry. I do not think the actions of individuals during the rescue attempt will be criticized much. But there will become questions, and whether the Police should coordinate a serious complex rescue/recovery operation should be examined notwithstanding Judith Comments leading a turf war on the issue.
November 25th, 2010 at 11:06 am
I was also impressed by Peter Whittall, especially as he used down-to-earth (non-technical) language for the public and media to easily understand the situation as it was unfolding (I saw some of the live morning press conferences on TV1). He seemed reasonably down-to-earth himself, which always helps when dealing with the families (and public etc).
I can see why some people here had issues with Gary Knowles, because he appeared ‘robotic and functional’ (certainly not so down-to-earth), but that robotic-ness goes with the territory and personally under the circumstances I thought he handled the (massive) pressure well and I did admire his ‘cool head’. I certainly wouldn’t have wanted to be in his shoes, the pressure must have been unbelievably heavy as basically the entire nation (and no doubt Police HQ and the pollies), let alone the families were judging his abilities. Well done Gary Knowles then. I think the Australian journo who called Gary Knowles a ‘country cop’ mis-judged Gary Knowles – as well as being the Regional Superintedant, no doubt he will go onto much higher positions in the NZ Police in the future.
As expressed by others here (eg Gooner has mentioned it a few times), if there are any issues with the Police handling of the situation, it would have to do with policy, which Gary Knowles had to follow. Therefore if people are concerned with the imposition of health and safety to a much harsher extent (as in compared to the past) then perhaps we/they (as the public) may get a chance to comment in any forthcoming enquiry?
Finally hats off to all the rescuers and support people on location and supporting the community there.
November 25th, 2010 at 11:08 am
Peter Whittall has been a person of unbelievable strength and moral character. His openness with the media (viz the public) and humanity has been quote incredible. In other circumstances he would be up for a gong. As noted above he has to be in the running for New Zealander of the year. I agree with your other comments paticularly about Knowles although think the media have been a bit mixed.
November 25th, 2010 at 11:15 am
I suspect Gary Knowles drew a bit stick early on in the piece for being a little short with some of the ill-informed questions from reporters (which were probably to be expected,…very few people know mining) as well as being a bit belligerent & defensive when his and the police’s roles were being questioned. And who can blame him really, this sort of stuff doesn’t happen every day!
He did a good job along with all the others. Just trying their best!
Peter Whittall came across as a very empathetic bloke.
November 25th, 2010 at 11:19 am
Knowles is a decent policeman but he was a fish out of water on this operation. Frankly I was surpassed to see the police making the final calls on something way outside their normal field of operations. Whittall basically took over and on the final tragic day Knowles was nowhere to be seen. If was fronted entirely by whit tall.
November 25th, 2010 at 11:27 am
Agreed, but it is how it is.
From my limited perspective (PC & TV viewer) I would say that things appeared to run reasonably smoothly considering the circumstances. No doubt future responses to similar events will benefit from the tragedy at Pike River mine.
November 25th, 2010 at 11:29 am
“Frankly I was surpassed to see the police making the final calls on something way outside their normal field of operations.”
Your sounding like a broken record, large scale SAR and body recovery are very much within their normal field of operations. Who else in this country has the protocols, expertise, experience and the ability to manage, direct and liase with such a large and diverse group of difference agencies and individuals?
November 25th, 2010 at 12:01 pm
@tvb
“Knowles is a decent policeman but he was a fish out of water on this operation. Frankly I was surpassed (sic) to see the police making the final calls on something way outside their normal field of operations. Whittall basically took over and on the final tragic day Knowles was nowhere to be seen. If was fronted entirely by whit tall.”
Really?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd27VMe5uCE
Knowles was certainly there and spoke to the media outside immediately after having spoken to the families. And I agree with Dexter, you’re sounding like a broken record on the issue of overall Police responsibility. Knowles was in charge overall, but the operation was a team effort, including decision-making on rescue attempts.
November 25th, 2010 at 12:07 pm
And contrary to several comments above, the Police do have extensive expertise and competencies in SAR matters. This is obviously less so in respect of the highly specialised mine rescue activity, but as others have said it was an interagency activity and Sup. Knowles undoubtedly acted on expert advice all along from people who were not necessarily police.
It was obvious from the first conferences that no matter what he did or said, if the outcome was anything other than 29 living miners, he would be the lightning rod for criticism
November 25th, 2010 at 12:32 pm
the Police were always on to a hiding for nothing in this.
I feel for them all as the west coast is a small place, 60,000 people and they all will know someone who died or a family member.
For some they will know many.
November 25th, 2010 at 12:35 pm
I thought Gary Knowles did a superb job. He didn’t beat around the bush, he didn’t trot out a lot of PR palaver, he gave clear explanations about progress, spoke firmly and directly – in fact he did everything you would expect of a top cop.
God forbid we end up with PR spokespeople at times like this. I have much more faith in men like Knowles and Whittall who speak honestly and openly without trying to be smooth or slick.
I am over the obligatory tear, catch in the voice etc to convince us of sincerity or empathy. Of course there should be honest expressions of emotion but professionals quickly overcome their feelings and get on with the job – like John Key and the other people fronting this tragedy. These men inspired great trust and confidence.
This is a time for honesty of all kinds, not the superficial emotions manufactured by reporters desperate for an angle.
Thank the lord for our police and for bosses like Peter Whittall.
November 25th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
I have been most impressed by the actions and demeanor of all those involved in this operation, it was a thankless task, and will prove to be more so as the days and weeks go by, as a section of NZr’s get out the bats and wickets for a round or two of the “blame game” It will be the usual suspects.
There are those (including some on this blog site) who do not understand the issues in an event like this, and never will.
I congratulate & thank Gary Knowles & Peter Whittall (along with their team of experts) for their handling of the incident, at the same time as feeling sorrow for the loss.
November 25th, 2010 at 1:03 pm
For goodness sake let’s have some facts around Knowles’ position. He is the Scene Commander. He is the ultimate authority at the scene. This has (as I understand it) statutory backing. Its the best system there is – one lead agency rather than having agencies patch-protecting and arguing about what to do (See Chch earthquake). He has three things to attend to do: run a crime scene, make all the final decisions around rescue/recovery etc and gather and record evidence for the ensuing police inquiry and other official inquiries. He assembles a team of experts who advise him in all the areas he needs advice on. He takes that advice. and acts on it. In terms of what’s going on at the scene, he decides who will speak to whom and when. Knowles would likely have known after three days at least all the miners were dead. Like it or not, his job is not helping to feed a media frenzy and for what it’s worth, I think he spent too much time on that. Also, maybe he didn’t bond as well as might have with the families.
November 25th, 2010 at 1:21 pm
I’ve met Gary Knowles in a professional capacity. I interviewed him at length once (no I’m not a journalist, it was a interview to gather agency views on international defence strategy). He was head of CIB at the time, however he made time to see me, was considered and polite and actually very interested in the subject matter. We spent double the alloted hour discussing international security. I can understand where some people might have got the impression he was slightly wooden. In my experience this is just his natural persona. It certainly wasn’t unpleasant he was just slightly reserved in his demeanor, but he is actually very warm and down to earth.
Having spent 25 years in senior management positions in Wellington he is not just a “country cop”. It behoves journalists to do some basic research on their subjects. It is not rocket science.
Who is in charge of nominations for New Zealander of the Year? Can one vote in it? I will be voting for Peter Whittall
November 25th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
Hey people,
Say a prayer for the souls of the lost miners.
November 25th, 2010 at 1:55 pm
“Knowles is a decent policeman but he was a fish out of water on this operation.”
I’m not sure operations like this appear on many CVs.
Knowles was straight up on this. Firm, polite and prepared to front up. If people stepped over the line he told them. Deep down, he was hurting. Cut him some slack. He’s earned it.
November 25th, 2010 at 2:27 pm
I’m in KL at the moment, so a bit removed from the national mood. DPF’s coverage has given me the connection to feel what is happening. Kudos for capturing the moment in a direct and honest way that helps to bring us together.
November 25th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
I too think Whittal did a tremendous communications job. However, we mustn’t forget he was the manager responsible for the design and operation of the mine until promoted to CEO a month or so ago. He’s going to face a whole new set of pressures over the coming months, so we might want to hold off on the NZer of the year award. How are we going to feel if we find he developed and managed an unsafe mine? I sincerely hope that is not going to be the outcome.
As for the cop, my only criticism is that he should have prepared the families and the community for the worst a bit earlier. Just looking at the physics of the explosion should have told them there was a low probability of survival. Sometimes it seems we push senstitivity so far that we make it more difficult to face hard truths, which leads to the anger and resentment we are seeing from people who feel they have been misled.
November 25th, 2010 at 2:45 pm
From the outside it looked a bit that way. I can understand to an extent the need not to sound too pessimistic, they had to try and hold on to some hope. But we don’t know what they were telling the families in their regular private briefings. Some people will shut out bad news.
By Sunday I had figured there was little hope for survival, the signs were there, and was pretty sure about it by Wednesday, but the second explosion still knocked the stuffing out of me.
November 25th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
Has anyone any idea of the travel time from Greymouth to the mine? They say 40km of which at least some is on tracks cut through the bush and (at DOC’s insistence) “zig-zagging around ancient Rimu Trees”. SO at least an hour each way. 2 or 3 times per day makes for a lot of travel time to keep the country informed.
How many times each day did Gary Knowles and Peter Whittall travel that 40km’s each time mentally preparing themselves to either catch up on issues (at the mine) or face family and an increasingly aggressive (and at times downright stupid) media? Try and consider how short most of us would become under that regime added to the stress of knowing that you will be your own harshest critic over every action or inaction, every small decision regarding men and materiel, for the rest of your lives.
Compare and contrast with what we saw.
I have the deepest admiration for both men who willingly took the heat so that others could get on with preparing to risk their lives outside of the public gaze and able to focus clearly on the task at hand.
Peter WHittall, a virtual spectator – powerless to make decisions in his own mine. Gary Knowles willing to make himself a target for all the ill-informed and sometimes vicious attacks – knowing that it is one of the prices of putting on the blue uniform in the morning.
Bravo both men, I would be proud to call you friend.
November 25th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
good points david.
November 25th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
Knowles is basically a decent cop making judgement calls on highly technical matters way outside his background, (unless he has an Engineering qualification). I simply do not believe in the well meaning amateur in a highly specialised operation with human lives at risk. Fortunately he did not have to actually DO anything. But I am not one of those who says you can call on this expect or that expert when you have a very limited grasp of the very complex technical issues involved. You have to KNOW what questions to ask. I bet no where else in the world you find policeman plod coordinating this type of operation. That rude Aussie journalist was quite right to ask the hard questions and say the emperor has no clothes.
November 25th, 2010 at 4:31 pm
Anyone who is in a profession, as I am, knows when to push the boundary and take a risk. Maybe Knowles as an amateur was too cautious in those golden few hours following the first blast, and was too cautious. People who do not have a profession background do not understand this. You get amateurs think they understand everything. But a professional knows when to push the boundary, see the exception. In my field I work around people who think this is easy, I can do this or that. And most of the time it is fine. But every now and then I spot an opportunity they fail to see and do something they never though of. That is the difference between someone who has a technical understanding and someone who is a professional.
November 25th, 2010 at 5:00 pm
tvb: I disagree, for a variety of reasons that I won’t go into. You’ve had your say, I’d leave it alone.
November 25th, 2010 at 5:16 pm
tvb, your just reciting the same old rubbish that has already been completely refuted here. Just stop while your already behind before you make yourself look even more foolish.
November 25th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
I don’t know why Knowles is taking the flak. Yes, Knowles does not have a great TV presence, but he could only have acted on the advice of the technical experts – not to have done so would have been extremely reckless on his part.
While Whitall is clearly more articulate than Knowles, Whitall is the CEO of the company. He is a mining engineer. Under the Health and Saftey Act, Whitall is what is called the ‘principal’ – the guy who in the end has to take full responsibility to ensure that no contractor or subcontractor, or their employees, are harmed working on his company’s projects.
In this regard, no matter how good a guy he comes across to everyone, Whitall will be the one having to answer the hard questions – because twenty nine guys died under his watch. Whitall is the guy ultimately responsible, morally as well as legally – not Superintendent Gary Knowles.
November 25th, 2010 at 6:03 pm
In the minds of the great, “caring” unwashed, Knowles was always going to be chopped liver when compared to Whittall, for no better reason than that one chap seemed to be “suffering” and seemed more “sympatico’ than the other. So superficial … I hope we rise above this level of thinking. Intelligent, unsentimental minds will be required for enquiry now.
November 25th, 2010 at 6:11 pm
I don’t know why Knowles is taking the flak.
Most people like to find someone to blame when there is huge loss. A Police officer is usually the easy target unfortunately.
BTW – never though I’d say this to you, but good post.
November 25th, 2010 at 6:23 pm
In the end it seems Knowles made the right decision. There is a very high probability that the miners were killed by that first blast. The higher the likelihood the victims are beyond saving, the higher the threshold should be before risking other men’s lives to save them.
If there was clear evidence that the miners were alive-they could be heard, or even seen alive with cameras etc, then sending in rescuers, even at significant risk to the rescuers would be easier to justify. But this was not the case.
“That is the difference between someone who has a technical understanding and someone who is a professional.”
Knowles was fully qualified for the role he played. Experts are there to present the range of alternatives and the likely respective outcomes of adopting each alternative, ie do A and you will get B, do C and you will end up with D etc. They are not there to decide between A and B. That is the decision for the person being advised to take.
Good decisions can be made by people without a grasp of the underlying technical details of whatever is being decided. If this was not the case, nothing would ever get done in a modern society.
November 25th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
I have the greatest admiration for the way Pike River CEO Peter Whittall and Superintendent Gary Knowles made decisions, conducted themselves, and briefed the trapped miners’ families and the public following the first explosion.
They did what the evidence and expert advice on it led them to believe was correct, and ultimately they were (sadly) proved to be correct. Sending a rescue team in would likely have resulted in greater loss of life.
My opinion of Grey District Mayor Tony Kokshoorn’s contribution is far less positive, but the detail of that can wait for another day.
November 25th, 2010 at 6:56 pm
tvb 4 30 wrong place wrong time, my understanding is there may, I repeat, may have been a 4 hour window after the Friday blast. 2 hours were lost while the two survivors made their way out to sound the alarm. The rescue teams were not just waiting at the minehead, they had to assemble kitup and have some sort of response plan made, meant therefore a “possible window had evapourated before any mission was in place. Supt Knowles was, I believe in Nelson but was the ranking Officer under New Zealand LAW to take the coordination role. Your analysis is shite so could I suggest that the mantra: “sometimes it is better to remain silent and be thought stupid than speak and remove the doubt” is entirely relevant.
My apologies for entering the postwith this but my restraint was eroded somewhat.
I have nothing but respect and admiration for all those who were forced to carry the burden for managing this unfolding tragedy and all my thoughts and compassion are with those directly affected by what has happened. That people perish working in what endeavour attempts to make safe is very hard to comprehend. Utmost symathy, Murray
November 25th, 2010 at 7:06 pm
I just caught the tail end of parliament today on the radio and heard the hymn being sung. So I tuned into 94 just before and saw it from Bill English to the end. I can honestly say I was touched by Bill’s speech he really was emotional when he delivered it and that is out of character for a seasoned politician like him.
The rest of them went through the usual fine words.
What really got me emotional though was “How Great You Art” sung in Maori lead by Te Ururoa Flavell.
They may not be much cop as pollies but by God the Maori’s sure can sing.
Well done Maori Party.
ps: By watching the lips move. It was interesting to see who could sing the Maori words and who didn’t have a clue.
November 25th, 2010 at 7:12 pm
I just wonder if a submarine sank off the coast off New Zealand – is NZ going to have policeman plod coordinate that search and rescue???? A mining search and rescue is just as specialised yet we have plod involved in that.
November 25th, 2010 at 7:12 pm
Respect, Admiration, Courage, Wonderful men,
don’t even think about the alternative :
this post is a is a NZ NAT Farrar propoganda exercise for believers.
and Police are sorry for not printing that the idiots in West Coast weren’t up to it,
so we had to manipulate their simple minds over a period,
advertising by Farrar here:
“Twitter, as usual, was the best source of up to the minute news. It also allowed journalists to share their raw emotions as events unfolded.”
vb (1,476) Says:
November 25th, 2010 at 11:19 am
Knowles is a decent policeman but he was a fish out of water on this operation. Frankly I was surpassed to see the police making the final calls on something way outside their normal field of operations.
Whittall basically took over and on the final tragic day Knowles was nowhere to be seen. If was fronted entirely by whit tall.
# Nookin (342) Says:
November 25th, 2010 at 1:55 pm
“Knowles is a decent policeman but he was a fish out of water on this operation.”
I’m not sure operations like this appear on many CVs.
Knowles was straight up on this. Firm, polite and prepared to front up. If people stepped over the line he told them. Deep down, he was hurting. Cut him some slack. He’s earned it.
pq I don’t think so pal
# tvb (1,476) Says:
November 25th, 2010 at 4:31 pm
Anyone who is in a profession, as I am, knows when to push the boundary and take a risk. Maybe Knowles as an amateur was too cautious in those golden few hours following the first blast, and was too cautious. People who do not have a profession background do not understand this. You get amateurs think they understand everything. But a professional knows when to push the boundary, see the exception. In my field I work around people who think this is easy, I can do this or that. And most of the time it is fine. But every now and then I spot an opportunity they fail to see and do something they never though of. That is the difference between someone who has a technical understanding and someone who is a professional.
# tvb (1,476) Says:
November 25th, 2010 at 4:31 pm
Anyone who is in a profession, as I am, knows when to push the boundary and take a risk. Maybe Knowles as an amateur was too cautious in those golden few hours following the first blast, and was too cautious. People who do not have a profession background do not understand this. You get amateurs think they understand everything. But a professional knows when to push the boundary, see the exception. In my field I work around people who think this is easy, I can do this or that. And most of the time it is fine. But every now and then I spot an opportunity they fail to see and do something they never though of. That is the difference between someone who has a technical understanding and someone who is a professional.
# Pete George (8,019) Says:
November 25th, 2010 at 2:45 pm
he should have prepared the families and the community for the worst a bit earlier.
From the outside it looked a bit that way. I can understand to an extent the need not to sound too pessimistic, they had to try and hold on to some hope. But we don’t know what they were telling the families in their regular private briefings. Some people will shut out bad news.
By Sunday I had figured there was little hope for survival, the signs were there, and was pretty sure about it by Wednesday, but the second explosion still knocked the stuffing out of me.
November 25th, 2010 at 7:14 pm
“My opinion of Grey District Mayor Tony Kokshoorn’s contribution is far less positive, but the detail of that can wait for another day.”
Don’t keep us in suspense with your slimy little innuendos toady. Tell all now.
I for one sent him a cheque today for the relief fund. He struck me as a man doing all he could for his community and it seemed to me that a donation to his Mayoral relief fund might get to the people who need it far more quickly than directing one through the greedy old banks.
If you think otherwise don’t keep us
guessing.
November 25th, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Knowles is a decent bloke, sincere, straight up, good character. But this was a highly specialised search and rescue. He is not to blame at all. I believe it is a major policy fault to have him there. Judith Collins gives every impression she will fight an aggressive turf war to keep the Police Leading highly specialised search and rescue operations. Why, she could get the NZ Police to coordinate submarine rescues off the Coast of New Zealand. She is behaving like the Head of the Political Department in the Police Association, not as a Minister of the Crown.
November 25th, 2010 at 7:24 pm
“I just wonder if a submarine sank off the coast off New Zealand – is NZ going to have policeman plod coordinate that search and rescue???? A mining search and rescue is just as specialised yet we have plod involved in that.”
Never fear tvb:
At the slightest indication that a submarine has sunk just off our coast the Royal New Zealand Submarine Rescue Department will swing into action.
They will deploy the latest submersibles and a nuclear powered retrieval submarine within 6 hours of the disaster being reported.
All the crew will be rescued within 12 hours and no oil will be spilled to endanger the habitats of the poor little sea creatures.
To pay for the setting up of this service the Government is about to announce that as of tomorrow no benefits (including the pension) will be paid out for the next ten years.
November 25th, 2010 at 7:28 pm
Edit: Wrong thread
November 25th, 2010 at 7:30 pm
I send my condolences to the families of those who lost their lives @ this tragic mining accident (even I don’t know them in person). May I point you out to a beautiful & comforting classic christmas song from an 80s favourite pop group of mine. It is heartfelt listening to it on youtube.
Christmas In My Heart by The Jets
PS : For my fellow atheists on this blog who is going to take snide against me for posting a christmas song, I say piss off.
November 25th, 2010 at 7:30 pm
Leave it alone tvb. The Police head SAR in this country.
They act with the full cooperation of all required specialised rescue services/volunteers etc.
They are just the coordinating authority. I know I used to do land SAR in a previous life.
Give thanks to Gary Knowles. His job was to front up and keep the heat off the people who were doing all the work behind the scenes.
November 25th, 2010 at 7:32 pm
Good song Fala.
Did you like Te Ururoas hymn?
Made me blubber.
November 25th, 2010 at 7:36 pm
Don’t think so Johnboy. I expect the issue I am raising will be in the Commission of Inquiry. Is mining a special case for SAR (yes) should the Police coordinate SAR (no).
November 25th, 2010 at 7:43 pm
They have done it for a bloody long time tvb and generally they get it right. They always rely on expert advice in specialised situations and I do not suspect that they have not done so in this case.
If the police do not coordinate SAR who would you suggest?
Civil defence? Excuse me while I chunder.
November 25th, 2010 at 7:55 pm
kia kaha to all affected. Overhandled. Too much of a good thing will always cause pain.
November 25th, 2010 at 8:21 pm
“I expect the issue I am raising ”
I expect it won’t.
You just sound like a broken record droning on and on, what evidence do you have that the Police were incompetent and mishandled this? I’m assuming your privy to some inside information, because from where I’m standing it looks like they did a damn good job under the most difficult circumstances imaginable.
So please why don’t you explain how the Police mucked this up and what should have been done differently.
November 25th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Johnboy you are an idiot. You personalise arguments. Ask the wrong questions. Mining is a special case for SAR. I bet you are a police officer fighting some turf war.
November 25th, 2010 at 8:33 pm
I am not critiscising, I just can’t figure out why the police were involved in the first place. It’s like having a pilot at a naval disaster. They have nothing useful to contribute to the situation I would believe. Could be wrong.Why 5 inquiries? (so far, 4 police, 1 mining company, doesn’t include Govt. inquiries.) We seem to have a lot of opinionated people.
I know, how dare I question anybody at a time like this……totally inappropriate.
November 25th, 2010 at 8:35 pm
“Johnboy you are an idiot. You personalise arguments.”
Oh the irony. The funny thing is Johnboy had been perfectly civil towards you as well.
Kaya if you read this and the previous threads, it’s been explained countless times the reasons why Police run SAR operations in this country.
November 25th, 2010 at 8:36 pm
Dexter I bet it will be raised. I think NZ was made a laughing stock by the report of the Aussie journalist about the Country Policeman coordinating the rescue, mark my words.
November 25th, 2010 at 8:46 pm
“Johnboy you are an idiot. You personalise arguments. Ask the wrong questions.”
Ahhh. Yep. Obvious that you don’t suffer from my failings then tvb.
SAR is SAR wither on land, sea, air, or underground. The same principles apply.
In NZ the police are in charge of SAR they utilise whatever services they require to achieve a result.
I am sure they did this on this occasion (ie: utilised all the help that the mining industry could give them).
If they did not do this it will come out in the inquiry.
I have never been a member of the police or have ever had any connection with the police force.
Trust the above statements help soothe your paranoia’s.
November 25th, 2010 at 8:49 pm
I seriously suspect tvb that the Aussie journalist has been made a laughing stock by the “country” policeman.
Particularly when Gary Knowles referred to him as “Sir”.
November 25th, 2010 at 8:56 pm
@ Johnboy; those few moments in Parliament this afternoon almost had this cynical old fart in tears. The singing of Whakaaria Mai was from the heart, and Lockwood Smith’s magnificent singing voice came to the fore. Although my command of te reo Maori is pretty rudimentary, I got the gist of Te Ururoa Flavell’s oratory. It must have been planned, as both Jim Anderton and Peter Dunne spoke before Flavell. In the normal order of things, the Maori Party would speak after Act. In any event, it was a most fitting and poignant end to an emotional 45 minutes where the House was for once in unity.
I’ve posted the video of Flavell’s speech on Keeping Stock; it’s well worth a look IMHO
November 25th, 2010 at 9:00 pm
Dexter – I haven’t read the thread. I’ve been working. I promise I will read it but I really fail to see how anyone can explain why people who have no knowledge of a situation should be involved in dealing with it. Call me stupid, but I know if I was in a mine I would want miners sorting it out. If I was on the water I would want coastguard sorting it out. You know what I’m saying.
Policemen do a great job, but it’s like going to Noel Leemings looking fro expert advice on a computer. No chance.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:01 pm
Ean Higgins made himself look like a dipstick, something he is also known to do back in Aus. I doubt he has damaged any reputation but his own.
I hope he doesn’t try and gatecrash any funerals here like he has in Aus.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:02 pm
Yes IV2.
I am not a great fan of things Murri, in particular the greedy, grasping for money and power, but it brought a little tear to my eye.
What other Parliament in the world would you see that happening?
Almost brings back my pride in being a Kiwi that all the years of racial bickering have all but destroyed.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:02 pm
@tvb
“[to Johnboy]I bet you are a police officer fighting some turf war.”
Likewise tvb you seem to have issues with NZ Police, throwing cheap shots like “plod”, “country cop”, etc.. this suggests to me that your objection to Police heading SAR goes beyond assessing their appropriateness in that role.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
“if I was in a mine I would want miners sorting it out. ”
They were Kaya. Gary Knowles was the face that fronted to the media delivering their conclusions.
Anyone who thinks he made the technical decisions is a retard.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:06 pm
The Police are probably well placed to deal with most SAR operations I have no issue there, but I do have a problem with highly specialised operations like mine rescue quite outside Police experience. frankly I felt embarrassed for Knowles being taken out of dealing with rape, bashings, homicide, drugs and co-ordinating a complex mine rescue operation.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
I’d never have ever suspected until your confession IV2 that you were a “cynical old fart”.
F**k! (Sorry I mean intercourse!). I thought I was the only cynical old fart around here.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
So instead of letting mine rescue experts concentrate on the job at hand and what they do best, we should instead have them running the entire operation, coordinating and controlling all the differing agencies, groups and inviduals who are involved. Thats makes about as much sense as putting a highly trained and skilled brain surgeon in charge of managing a hospital.
Name who you believe should have run the operation.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:16 pm
“but I do have a problem with highly specialised operations like mine rescue quite outside Police experience.”
So who do you expect would head down the mine to rescue the miners then when the conditions were safe tvb?
A team of constabules dressed in keystone cop gear or a chap with ticket book in hand and a flashing set of red and blues on his head.
You are a very slow learner my friend!
November 25th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
DPF: how about in a couple days (i.e. at the appropriate time) you devote a thread to why tvb is an idiot. You can summarise all the points that’ve been made before, lay it out logically. tvb can then bleat, and we can all take turns pointing out how wrong he is. Given that you, as the host, made it very clear you didn’t want the discussion on this thread @8:47am (although tvb seems incapable of following your wishes), I’ll leave it at that.
November 25th, 2010 at 9:58 pm
Just for those who still think fools should have rushed in where experts feared to tread:
Emphasis mine
http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/mine-expert-first-explosion-ruptured-gas-line-3916367
November 25th, 2010 at 10:51 pm
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10690047
This speaks about a proper fund for the miners as opposed to one for the mayor. Are they the same or different?
November 25th, 2010 at 10:53 pm
Strange uses of language. Where does ‘chomping’ at the bit come from? It always used to be ‘champing’.
And two reporters have described first the families as ‘traipsing’ into a hall and then the doomed miners ‘traipsing’ into the mine on that last day.
Do they have dictionaries any more?
Trivial I know but it’s easier than thinking about the big things.
November 26th, 2010 at 12:16 am
Has anyone any idea of the travel time from Greymouth to the mine?
It is about 50 mins to the amenity area.
They say 40km of which at least some is on tracks cut through the bush and (at DOC’s insistence) “zig-zagging around ancient Rimu Trees”. SO at least an hour each way.
I just want to set something straight, DoC and Pike actually worked things out pretty well. The road does not ‘zig zag’ around ancient Rimu. While it is true some have been avoided, it is hardly a slalom course and it definitely doesn’t increase travel time .
The road largely follows river or stream courses which are bridged when necessary and trees were felled only where necessary.
For each large Rimu felled, 10 more were planted somewhere along the road and near the amenity area. The office area was also planted in eco sourced native shrubs and ferns to ensure bare ground was protected from erosion.
I know all this because I was the one who did it.
November 26th, 2010 at 8:26 am
Thought some of the posters on here were bad, and then I accidentally stumbled across Ian Wisharts blog.
How on earth does this man get any credence (debatable) as a serious journalist in this country?
http://briefingroom.typepad.com/the_briefing_room/2010/11/mine-blast-cowardice-in-nz-police.html
http://briefingroom.typepad.com/the_briefing_room/2010/11/armchair-osh-apologists-in-the-media-and-in-sci-blogs-have-been-trying-to-justify-the-lack-of-a-rescue-in-greymouth-because-o.html#comments
Maybe there is a home for Tvb in the blogosphere?
November 26th, 2010 at 8:34 am
Dexter, there are too many around that this applies to:
Destructive gas starting to disperse
November 26th, 2010 at 8:49 am
Dexter – you obviously missed the comment by Wishart where he responded to being called an armchair expert on mining by referring to a time when he wrestled with a man who had a knife. That somehow shows he is not an armchair expert on mine rescues.
It’s true. You can go and read it on one of those blog posts.
November 26th, 2010 at 9:13 am
To be fair to IW, he said he had displayed that he wasn’t a guy who just sat back when the need arose. I think he accepted he didn’t have the skills required. He should still apologise for the stupidity of his posts/
November 26th, 2010 at 10:40 am
It should be the senior mines inspector. Many members of the public have little confidence in the police regarding risk management. The police who refused to allow ambulance staff to the liquor store owner were never held to account. The police are seldom held to account for anything except when they are convicted of a serious crime.
The person who should have been in charge should have had a science degree and ideally a good knowledge of mining. They should also have a good knowledge of basic probability and risk management and possess reasonable PR skills.
Sadly, Gary Knowles lacked all these qualities. I will list where I think he was lacking.
Firstly, the constant use of “I” rather than we put a lot of people off.
His statement that, “I will not send anyone into the mine until it was 100% safe” was ridiculous on a couple of counts. Firstly, he did not have the authority to send anyone into the mine. Secondly, 100% safe was inappropriate criteria – just ask the relations of the man who slowly bleed to death at the liquor store.
It would appear very early on that the chance of survivors after the first explosion was assessed to be very low. I of course was not at the family briefings but by listening to Laurie Drew it sounds this was not conveyed to him. The video at the entrance should have been shown sooner.
The likelihood of survivors should be a major factor in the acceptable risk of a rescue team. Those in charge no doubt based their decisions on this but failed to convey this to the public at least. They may have also failed to convey it to the families.
Police have different personality traits than other occupations. These traits may be helpful in some of the duties but not in others. If there is a crowd of people not behaving on New Year’s Eve they need to make a quick decision right or wrong and stick with it. When investigating a crime they should keep an open mind and be prepared to change their mind if there is new evidence.
This is not just a criticism of New Zealand police. I think this applies in other countries.
http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=775
Melanie Phillips describes how lives were lost in the UK due policed protocols similar to those in New Zealand.
There may have been a police officer who could have done a better job but I think the legislation that puts a police officer in charge should be changed.
November 26th, 2010 at 10:47 am
They would also have experience with and be good at liasing with many local, national and international groups. And they should also be able to be seen to take responsibility to take the heat off the rescue experts.
How many people in NZ would qualify for this?
How many should be employed and on standby in case of mine emergencies?
Should we have a range of appropriate experts on standby so they could could step up when required, depending on what type of emergency arises?
You may be confusing “what would be ideal” with “what is practical and affordable”.
November 26th, 2010 at 11:01 am
“It should be the senior mines inspector”
So we should have a senior mines inspector who chances are will never have partaken in a mine rescue before or for that matter any rescue at all, and with no experience, training or knowledge of SAR principles or personal, with no idea or experience of dealing with an authorizing all the diverse groups and individuals required and how each group operates and it’s command structure and then providing a central command and control over these, while at the same time assuming the burden of dealing with the families, victim support and the media. And they would also have to be able to handle the extreme pressure, not only internally but externally from the court of public opinion and the media. And they would also do all this without a fraction of the resources the Police have at their disposal, including a communications center.
That sounds not only a recipe for chaos, but also a complete and utter waste of the expertise of such experts who are best placed to be objectively studying the data and then like in this case, making a decision whether or not it is safe to enter and advising the Police of that.
It sounds like you just have a personal dislike of the man based on the points you raised, none of which have any bearing on the integrity of the operation itself. This isn’t Australia, we don’t have the wealth of mining and rescue experience they have, nor the scale or infrastructure to warrant the specialisation of SAR co-ordination based on particular fields.
November 26th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
I think all he wants is what would sell more of Wishart’s drivel!!!!
November 26th, 2010 at 1:20 pm
So, Chuck, your main objection is that Gary Knowles said ‘I’ instead of ‘we’ in that warm inclusive way we all have grown to love?
In my opinion, it was a refreshing change to hear someone stepping up and telling us he took responsibility. He didn’t hide behind the groups of people advising him.
You seem to think the police should have been concentrating more on PR and keeping the families informed than the painstaking data-gathering and rescue preparations that the media and action heroes find boring but are the essential foundation of a successful – and safe – plan.
Your views are so muddled that we can only be glad it was men like Knowles who led the operation and not the armchair ‘experts’ who seem to hold everyone else to impossible standards of perfection even in times of appalling crisis.
November 26th, 2010 at 1:37 pm
The authorities handling the crisis were not straight up on the possibility of survival of the first blast.
Evidence collected from mining accidents elsewhere on the Coast reveal that the possibility of survival were low to nil and that should of been released almost straight away. Instead we went through a gut wrenching exercise in vanity watching euipment being transported in from Aussie that was basically a waste of time and energy because no one had the guts to tell the truth which was they were dead, killed in the initial blast.
The sad fact about the mining industry is that there is no Plan B, you are totally buggered if something goes wrong.
November 26th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
So, KevinH, they should have ignored even the sliver of a chance (or slither as our intrepid reporters would probably write) and announced that everyone was most likely dead and they were all shutting up shop and going home. Great. We aren’t stupid. We knew the chances were almost non-existent (and if we the general public knew then certainly mining families did too) but even a glimmer of hope was worth keeping alive and fighting for.
I am awaiting the time when 1 The CEO of Pike River (the ‘cuddly bear’ according to the Waikato Times) has to answer for what went wrong and 2. The Greens explain to us why an open cast mine that would have been safer for human beings was less important than trees, scenery, snails and frogs.