Will CCCP replace ACT?

May 5th, 2012 at 4:14 pm by David Farrar

An interesting discussion on The Nation with of the CCCP. Some extracts:

Duncan        Well is does, it means 5% probably, but economically you don’t line up with those on the right do you, because you don’t believe in those taxcuts that John Key did.  You don’t believe in asset sales.

Colin            Be a matter of timing only…

Duncan        We’ll get to that, but you don’t believe in the foreign investment around Crafer Farms, do you?

Colin            No I don’t, I think the Crafer Farms is a bad deal for New Zealand.

I see little to distinguish the CCCP economic policy from NZ First. I guess one difference is the leadership – Colin Craig better a slightly more palatable option than Winston.

Duncan        What would be a deal breaker around policy for a , what is so important to you?

Colin            I think issues for us very much fiscal and budget issues.  We can’t support continued increase in government expending.  Now National made a clear promise they would cut the spending, but did not.  Now for us we’ve got to bring the budget back under control.

Duncan        So you’re saying they’re not doing enough?

Colin            No, they’re not.  I don’t think they’ve made the brave or the hard decisions they should have made.

Duncan        Well you’ve had two zero budgets, with the second one of course coming up in two weeks’ time.  What would you have done differently.  Are you saying you would have gone much further than that.  Conservative Party in a future government would be pushing for much tougher cuts?

Colin            Yeah, in our current situation absolutely.

Duncan        What would you get rid of?

Colin            I would look at any spending that’s not delivering results and say well no results no money.

Duncan        But can you give me examples of what you would get rid of?

Colin            One example would be say the Family Court where we spend heading towards 200 million.  Now the model that’s used overseas that works very well is not one where we arm you know disputing partners with lawyers and put them in a court.  It’s a mediation model, it has a much higher success rate, and it costs less money to run.  So that’s just one example where we’d say gotta be far more innovative around our spending.

Here though they have some appeal. Winston demands extra spending/bribes regardless of the fiscal situation. Craig wants to cut spending. Not sure I agree on the Family Court (and the cost is $137m, not $200m) but all for a party supporting cutting wasteful spending.

Duncan        Colin Craig do you think that you could be a long term partner for a National Party?

Colin            Oh I think we could be obviously.  We’re a small party, we’re only six months in, so we’re very young, but we’re growing, we’re still growing.

Duncan        But you’d put aside some of your disagreements around those central economic…?

Colin            Inevitably in politics you can’t get everything you want.  That’s just how politics is.

This is a significant change from the election. Maybe Colin Craig is listening to some good advice now. He went into the campaign declaring he could support National or Labour, so why would centre-right voters vote for him? He also declared certain policies non negotiable, which is unwise at 2%.

I would prefer a classical liberal partner for National. But I’d take a Conservative Party partner over having no partner at all – so long as their policies are not worse than the alternative of a Labour-Green-NZ First-Mana Government.

 

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111 Responses to “Will CCCP replace ACT?”

  1. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Doesn’t quite seem RIGHT that ACT should be replaced by CCCP! :)

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  2. Aredhel777 (290 comments) says:

    Wonder if Act’s former voters and a bunch of National supporters will strategically vote for the Conservative Party. I suppose Banks’ cockup works tremendously in Craig’s favour. Wouldn’t be surprised to see the number of votes for the Conservatives rise in the next election, provided Craig can keep his party in the public eye. Also wouldn’t be surprised if National told an electorate to vote Conservative like they did in Epsom with Act. Who won Rodney in the last election again? I know it wasn’t the Conservatives but I do know they tried hard to get that seat.

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  3. Neil (579 comments) says:

    The CCCP seems very much a reactive party taking in the ex-National voters who swallowed Muldoon’s line and then went to Winston.
    I would be very suspicious of this group as I can see some strange people in there. Have an idea they have strong ties to tghe Religious Right as well.
    Craig is desperate to get into parliament and will spend money to do that. Another very flakey politician.

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  4. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Least he is spending his money Neil and not his union members money like a flakey Labour Party Politician would! :)

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  5. Joel Rowan (99 comments) says:

    I would think that CCCP is an unfortunate acronym (think Soviet Union). Is Colin Craig’s name actually in the party’s name? I think they are actually called the “Conservative Party of New Zealand”…

    I don’t have a problem with conservatives being represented. A different flavour on the right is ok. And if they siphon support from Winston, that sounds like good news to me.

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  6. Michael (905 comments) says:

    I’m a long time ACT voter, the Greens and Labour are higher on my preference list to the CCCP. Not quite sure of them being ahead of Winston First.

    Maybe I’m about to join 20% of the country in not voting next time – my seat is deep red and a party vote for ACT isn’t going to deliver any extra MPs, even if Banksie does survive this mess of his own making.

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  7. East Wellington Superhero (1,151 comments) says:

    @Neil

    “Craig is desperate to get into parliament and will spend money to do that. Another very flakey politician.”

    Perhaps. But no less flakey than everyone under 20 on the National list, under 10 on the Labour list, and the rest in Parliament. He’s (I assume) made his own money so can’t be that useless.

    But Colin Craig has a lot to work on in the next 2 years. He (and the Conservatives) have the potential to far, but will probably bomb.

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  8. BlairM (2,321 comments) says:

    I would be very happy about this development.

    I think they would get a lot of former ACT voters anyway. The party that should be pushing New Zealand forward through supporting free markets, lower taxes and less government is National. The CCCP can then hoover up all those wishy washy autarkists in the centre and keep Labour out of power (I think Craig is naive or dishonest if he says he could support a Labour government).

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  9. Fletch (6,296 comments) says:

    I would think that CCCP is an unfortunate acronym (think Soviet Union). Is Colin Craig’s name actually in the party’s name? I think they are actually called the “Conservative Party of New Zealand”…

    Yes, I would doubt they would refer to themselves that way…
    Where did you get that from DPF?

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  10. David Farrar (1,890 comments) says:

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/08/a_new_acronym.html

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  11. David Garrett (7,112 comments) says:

    The name of the party is indeed “The Conservative Party”..Craig’s name is not part of it.

    Anyone who dismisses this guy out of hand is making a big mistake. They have a number problems, in my view the chief of them being perceived as the latest manifestation of the Christian far right. Again, anyone who perceives them that way is making a mistake, but they are going to have to work very hard not to get that label – it has been well proven that any party which is PRIMARILY aimed at the Christian vote is going to fail miserably…which is quite a different thing from a party that appeals or is acceptable to the 2-4 % “Christian” vote.

    I would be interested in what others think of this theory…in 2008, running at least in part on a strong law and order platform, ACT got 3.7% or whatever it was. Last time, ACT decided to virtually abandon the law and order policy area – and selected a boy of 25 with no life experence as their Justice spokesman, who then promoted a couple of very stupid policies which I cant even remember.

    Garth McVicar promptly came out and virtually told his supporters to forget voting ACT and gave a coded message to look for the party whose law and order policy most coincided with SST aims. ACT got 1.2 or something, Conservative came from nowhere and confounding all the pundits, got 2.8. Coincidence?

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  12. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    In the same programme, by the way, Steven Franks was his usual asinine self.

    FFS, calling for even more austrianerity when governments are now beginning to fall like dominos as a result of that failed policy is, like, just so dumb!

    Just like yesterday on The Panel, Franks waxing lyrical in what a huge threat refugees may cause to NZ (proud guardians of the biggest moat in the world) in some distant, imaginary future – no doubt the same one as exists the non-existent threat to world peace caused by non-existent Iranian nukes when the US and allies (and non allies) have thousands at their disposal.

    I thought the only thing Colin Craig got right was his rejection of tax cuts at a time of stress in the government’s accounts. He got that one close to right. The sensible thing to do to at this time, as regards tax and cuts, is to increase benefits, decrease tax on low incomes, and increase tax on high incomes.

    So simple even right wingers should be able to comprehend it ;-)

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  13. Falafulu Fisi (2,179 comments) says:

    There is nothing wrong with being christian. What’s wrong is the mixing of christian ideologies/beliefs with politics, that’s what’s wrong and it leads to contradiction in their policies. It means that nonsense like, we support freedom but we like to regulate you from smoking dope since it is against our christian beliefs.

    Ron Paul is a christian, however he simply isolates his christian belief from his libertarian views. In this way, it is hardly likely anyone can find a contradiction in what he says (to the best of my knowledge, unless someone here can point me out any single contradiction from Congressman Paul). The other thing is that CCCP economic policy is no different from NZ First (as DPF already stated), which makes the CCCP not a right wing but leftwing. Chavez would be happy to endorse CCCP economic policies.

    If CCCP can isolate their christian beliefs from their political ideologies, then I think it will attract voters from the right (former/current ACT & Libertarianz supporters) and also including some from the left (NZ First). What I mean here is for CCCP to separate the 2.

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  14. David Garrett (7,112 comments) says:

    Luc: You have met Stephen Franks I assume? And may I ask what your educational qualifications are and what you do for a job?

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  15. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    He certainly isn’t a kosher pork butcher living in Tel Aviv David! :)

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  16. bhudson (4,738 comments) says:

    FFS, calling for even more austrianerity…is,like, just so dumb

    While it may not have been fashionable to have been Austrian during WWI, we have long forgiven them….

    As for austerity, it is the very lack of such in the past that has been the cause of the pain these countries are now going through after the GFC Luc. What part of Greece long having borrowed and spent more than it could afford do you struggle to comprehend?

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  17. David Garrett (7,112 comments) says:

    Falafulu: I actually think he could pull voters from Labour also. I know a lot of self employed tradesmen of varying ages. The older ones used to vote Labour but they dont now that the party is more interested in appealing to the “Rainbow Community” than looking after the average working joker. And tradesmen types young and old – or at least the ones I know – are very keen on a hard line law and order policy. If Conservative gets the right people and markets themselves well, they could easily get those sort of guys to give them their party vote.

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  18. kowtow (8,326 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen having a go at Franks.Good one.

    Franks is one of the very few in the “commentariat” that is consistently sensible .

    Yeah, how dare the Christians have a viewpoint on anything, disgusting creatures should just sit back and take all the shit dished out so freely by all those progressive ,enlightened types,tsk.

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  19. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Franks likes hunting too.

    That’s good enough for me.

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  20. Jack5 (5,055 comments) says:

    To be fair about the acronym, the Russian version is in Russian characters.

    A Russian acquaintance I consulted tells me their “C” is equivalent to the English “S” and the “P” to the English “R”, so the Soviet acronym would be pronounced like our S, S, S, R (“Ess, Ess, Ess, Are”).

    Craig’s party sounds quite a viable successor to ACT. Many good things came from ACT, but it did have some ultra-libertarian Ayn Rand nutters in the background. It also seemed a poor judge of character, not going with some very able people such as Steven Franks, and some very useful people electorally, such as Gerry Eckhoff, the fart-tax protesting farmer from Central Otago. How they could sideline this man who was a draw for the rural vote and loudly welcome someone like David Garrett was an insight into the calibre of the ACT back room.

    National, which has produced quite Lefty leaders like Muldoon and Bolger, definitely needs a small alternative party nudging it towards the centre-right and away from the centre-left.

    As for the 5.44 post of Luc Hansen:

    ..Steven Franks was his usual asinine self.

    Hansen, in that comment, commits the equivalent of a Pope calling someone a “bloody Doolan”.

    Franks is bright. Hansen may glow red, but he ain’t bright.

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  21. David Garrett (7,112 comments) says:

    Luc is apparently trying to remember if he got School C…Steve Franks is one of those rare lawyers who is both very “book smart” and pretty street smart too. I would listen to his “asinine” views over some sad arsed leftie any day of the week…

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  22. Scott Chris (6,068 comments) says:

    Just to be pedantic, CCCP isn’t an acronym. It’s an initialism.

    With an acronym you actually use the initials as a word, such as ACT (act) or WINZ (wins) as opposed to the USA or USSR which are both spelled out when verbalized and accordingly are classified as initialisms not acronyms.

    Regarding whether or not the New Cons will usurp ACT’s niche – No not the niche I think, but I guess a few Christians will migrate there. A few already did at the last election apparently if Fletch’s testimony is anything to go by.

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  23. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    franks was talking hysterical nonsense about boat-people..

    ..and babbling that same old/tired austerity-pimping..

    ..and he is a fucken lawyer..garrett..they are as common as muck…

    ..are you also unaware just how much lawyers are loathed by the rest of us..?

    ..phillip ure@whoar.co.nz

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  24. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    A conservative party is not really a replacement for ACT. ACT was at its strongest when if focused on neoliberal policies on economics and social welfare.
    David Garrett’s comment about ACT’s vote reducing and the Conservatives increasing at the behets of the Sensible Sentencing crowd was interesting. Maybe there is 2-3% out there that will go for whoever seems ‘toughest’ on law and order.

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  25. Than (463 comments) says:

    Unless MMP is reformed, all a new far-right party (assuming the CCCP counts as such) will achieve is to waste between 2% and 4.99% of the right wing vote, and give the Labour-Greens an easier time being elected.

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  26. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Have you ever considered ‘Teaching’ Scotty? :)

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  27. Scott Chris (6,068 comments) says:

    Fact is, there is currently an unoccupied niche in the MMP market to cater for those with both liberal economic and liberal social ideals.

    Tailor made for someone like David Farrar to fill. I’d probably vote for him.

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  28. Falafulu Fisi (2,179 comments) says:

    Jack5…

    National, which has produced quite Lefty leaders like Muldoon and Bolger

    And you think that John Key is not lefty? Think again. Rodney Hide was quite correct when he mentioned on TV1 in an interview just after the 2008 election that Key’s political philosophy is to the left of Helen Clark. Rodney was spot on there. The fact is Key is as leftist as Helen Clark.

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  29. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I don’t see the Nats as leftist so muc as middle of the road conservative. The typical National government inherits changes from Labour and runs with them, tinkers around a bit and tries not to scare the horses.

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  30. jaba (2,137 comments) says:

    gee .. this thread has got a couple of contributors attacking Stephen Franks .. goodness, I could listen to him all day .. smart considered and unflappable unlike the two having a go at him.

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  31. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..smart considered and unflappable..”

    did you hear him channeling john howard..?

    preaching that same hystetrical rubbish…

    ..and with even less reason..

    what the fuck was either ‘smart’ or ‘considered’ about that..?

    phillip ure@whoar.co.nz

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  32. David Garrett (7,112 comments) says:

    Go and have a joint Phil….even at your best, you are really, really, boring…

    When did Whale ban you?

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  33. nasska (11,281 comments) says:

    What else can National be other than middle of the road conservative? There’s no votes to be garnered from the right as the scrap over the 4% of the electorate shared by the Conservatives & ACT proves. The electorate as a whole has lurched to the left & if National doesn’t follow you can look forward to many years governed by the Greens.

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  34. David Garrett (7,112 comments) says:

    Nasska: I think there is something in that “electorate has lurched to the left…” National is certainly no longer the “natural party of goverment” was it was for the whole of the 60’s and 70’s aside from the brief experience with Labour in 1972-5

    God help us…

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  35. jaba (2,137 comments) says:

    Franks has a high paying job which he seems to do well at and is asked to appear on all sorts of media shows for his opinion .. I can see how that would upset you Philip

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  36. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    That’s a philosophy of desperation at best, nasska, though I suppose it works for National.

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  37. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Quite right nasska.

    The worst part for a poor old righty like me is watching nice Mr. Key sucking up to all the losers that make up the voting public in Godzone.

    Much as I realise there is no option other than the one you just proposed somehow it sticks in my craw!

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  38. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    he didn’t…

    ..i don’t like all the animal snuff-porn..

    ..it grosses me out..

    ..i banned myself..

    phillip ure@whoar.co.nz

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  39. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    I though NZCP’s election night numbers were very impressive given how new they were to the political landscape. They had both my votes.

    And Luc, what have you been smoking? It’s been spectacular profligacy, followed with too little austerity too late that has led Greece to offering up their economic sovereignty to those with deeper pockets. Still, credit to you for not blaming it on the naaaasty joooooos. I’m sure you considered that angle.

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  40. nasska (11,281 comments) says:

    krazykiwi

    I thought that you would sympathise with them.

    You can smell the communion wafers on their breath!

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  41. nasska (11,281 comments) says:

    PhilU

    Do you think that if we sent a delegation to Whale asking him to refrain from posting his hunting photos that you might reconsider your decision?

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  42. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Porn for Magpie :)

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  43. jaba (2,137 comments) says:

    gee johnboy .. not a bad shot .. can you eat magpie at all .. the name suggests you can

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  44. Nick R (507 comments) says:

    DPF might take CCCP (I love the irony of that acronym) but he’ll get NZ First. And he’ll suck it up, like a good little boy. Otherwise, the numbers for National won’t be there, without ACT or Maori Party (which is also goneburger).

    Watch out for the blogs here about how Winston has learned his lessons, changed his ways, and is now a suitable coalition partner for National. About 12 months, I reckon.

    [DPF: You don't know me very well.]

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  45. Keeping Stock (10,301 comments) says:

    Phillip Ure said

    he didn’t…

    ..i don’t like all the animal snuff-porn..

    ..it grosses me out..

    ..i banned myself..

    DPF; could we please have some duckshooting and deerstalking posts (with pictures), and maybe some good meat-based recipes, and pictures of BBQ handiwork? With any luck, Phil might ban himself from here too :-)

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  46. David Garrett (7,112 comments) says:

    I can’t recall any commentator even mentioning the Conservatives unless it was to deride them…And I am sorry to boast (very humble chap that I am) but at the election night party (at a former ACT person’s house) I was the only one to come even close to predicting what they would get…

    As krazy says, to come from nowhere and get 2.8 % after six months of existence was one helluva feat….and my sources tell me they have about three times ACT’s paid up membership and growing, and this is the lowest point in the electoral cycle…

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  47. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    How will this do for a kickoff KS! :)

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  48. David Garrett (7,112 comments) says:

    KS: Yes….perhaps that nice chap who posts the “Friday photo” could post shots of dead animals rather than those “National Geographic” shots – good though they are – that he puts up now…

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  49. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    ACT never really had religion behind them though David, unless Mammon counts.

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  50. nasska (11,281 comments) says:

    David Garrett

    Are, in your opinion, the Conservatives a trojan horse set up to carry representatives of the various failed Christian parties into political power?

    My curiosity was heightened when the Kiwi Party folded into the conservatives just before the last election. Many of the CP’s candidates were previous KP members. Ref: http://www.starstuddedsuperstep.com/2011/11/kiwi-party-file-7-amalgamating-with-the-conservative-party/

    It would appear that the God squad are not lacking in influence.

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  51. orewa1 (410 comments) says:

    I don’t subscribe to the concept that politics or economics should be characterised as left, right, or anywhere in between.

    The purpose of both disciplines is to serve the people who populate an incredibly diverse society. Some people are born with more, or less capital – whether intellectual, monetary, or social. That’s the nature of society. But they all have a right to inhabit the planet and live a good life, interfacing positively with the citizens around them.

    We employ our politicians to reconcile the needs of these diverse citizens in a way that allows everyone to achieve their potential. We cannot make every citizen do so, but we can offer them all the best opportunity having regard to their capital.

    The political and economic system is there to meet the needs of the people, and not vice versa. Ideological posturing by career politicians without real life experience doesn’t cut the mustard. Voters want to know what kind of society New Zealand is going to be under any specific politician or party.

    We don’t know that. That is why ordinary people are disillusioned with politicians who blindly align themselves with ideological positions and parrot dogma, rather than talk about societal outcomes.

    We need to understand as a society what our diverse people are wanting, and what they are capable of doing. Then we need to govern our society to give them good lives. Its not all about economics nor money – they are important but not all-consuming.

    That means accepting the reality of who our citizens are, not pretending they are all capable of becoming intellectual giants if only we could find the policy mix to incentivise them.

    Hence why the debates about left versus right, ACT versus Conservative, and Winston versus David are irrelevant to most New Zealanders, and why Kiwis have become disengaged from politics. What they want are politicans who can articulate the values of the society they aspire to create, in a way that attracts them to want to live in it.

    When did we last have a politician who could actually articulate a visionm of the future of New Zealand, and inspire voters across the board?

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  52. Nick K (1,232 comments) says:

    nasska – there are many Destiny Party and (dodgy) New Citizen Party members there too.

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  53. bhudson (4,738 comments) says:

    Watch out for the blogs here about how Winston has learned his lessons, changed his ways, and is now a suitable coalition partner for National.

    What do you base that on Nick R? Goff’s position on Hone?

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  54. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    I just could not bring myself to vote for a party that might go into coalition with a religious nutbar party.

    There must be another option on the right if ACT cannot be resurrected.

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  55. dime (9,869 comments) says:

    Wonder if they would put dime on their list..

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  56. nasska (11,281 comments) says:

    Nick K

    Given that most New Zealanders like their politics without religion I have a sneaky suspicion that the Conservatives are keeping a tight rein on God’s chosen ones.

    Don’t scare the horses is likely to be their mantra, for now.

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  57. MT_Tinman (3,137 comments) says:

    As an ex-ACT voter if you put a gun to my head and told me to vote CCCP I’d help you pull the trigger.

    The original ACT was a liberal party.

    For mine NZF (post-Winnie) looks far better although abstaining must be considered.

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  58. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    nasska 6:40, Sorry… I can’t help myself… the very mention of the word wafer has me youtubing this: Month Python – Mr Cresote :D

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  59. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    bruv – I’m one of your nutbars. Am I that bad? Really?

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  60. nasska (11,281 comments) says:

    krazykiwi

    Very good.

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  61. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    KK

    Not if you don’t want to control my freedom because of what is written in a book of fiction.

    However the moment you or any other religious fundy thinks that the way you want to live your life should be the way I am forced to live mine then we will always fall out.

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  62. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    KK

    Yes, you are. That bad. Really.

    I pity your daughter, having her mind poisoned by your sad-fuck non-think.

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  63. David Garrett (7,112 comments) says:

    Ah, the genius returns…

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  64. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    I’m just going to get the popcorn! :)

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  65. wiseowl (869 comments) says:

    The Conservatives are what the National Party used to be before they lost their principles.

    The derogatory commentsappearing today make me sick.
    The Nat s have let us down,Labour will destroy the country of they gain power again and people like Dunne look for the best option to keep returning a big dividend.

    It’s a sorry state.

    For a start to call the Conservatives CCCP is demeaning and the continual sniping at Colin Craig is pathetic.
    Those who criticise should front up.Form a party. Give it shot.

    I hope they rise and get the balance of power.

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  66. rg (210 comments) says:

    You seem intent on following this line of killing ACT. The ACT party and the Conservative party are chalk and cheese. ACT is a liberal party that believe in letting people get on with their lives for the betterment of the country. We do not need a Conservative party we have one, National. Conservative really means do nothing and that is what National have done.

    Craig’s conservatives are intervensinists, there are enough of them in Parliamnet strangling the life out of the country, we certainly don’t need more. Anyone who thinks the Conservatives will take ACT voters does not undserstand what ACT stands for. Freedom. small govt, prosperity and choice. I don’t think the Conservatives or National offer any of those.

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  67. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    KK

    You may well be bad, however you can always count on me being in your corner (not that you need it) when it comes to you V that terrorist loving wanker Luc.

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  68. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    In reply to David Garett’s earlier challenges to my good self:

    My station in life vs Franks’ bears no relationship to whom is right or wrong on the matters we are discussing.

    On matters of commercial law, my modest papers in that regard notwithstanding, I would defer to Franks. But be assured I would seek a second opinion. No offense intended, just that I’ve been short-changed before in that field by high ranking lawyers.

    On matters social and fiscal, another modest paper or two but also a longtime interest in facts, empirical evidence, from the most credible sources, backs up my opinions – and opinions are that all you and Franks and all of us, in the end, offer.

    Orewa1

    Too thoughtful for this blog, sorry.

    Try Kiwipolitico ;-)

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  69. Seán (397 comments) says:

    DPF said: “Colin Craig better a slightly more palatable option than Winston.”. Is this really your view David? Considering all I have read about Winston (incl on this blog) I would have the impression they are poles apart in the sense of leadership. Is there something I haven’t heard about Colin that makes him only “slightly more palatable” than Winston as a leader?

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  70. krazykiwi (9,186 comments) says:

    I pity your daughter, having her mind poisoned by your sad-fuck non-think.

    Yes, she’s a tragedy. In the top 5% of her law class, young, vivacious, pretty, generous, surrounded by friends and opportunity. I guess her greatest achievement is that she’s nothing like you Luc. Makes my heart sing.

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  71. nasska (11,281 comments) says:

    krazykiwi

    Took after her mother I presume?

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  72. bringbackdemocracy (426 comments) says:

    There are currently 8 parties in the NZ parliament. The Conservatives got more votes than 4 of them. They should be in parliament now.

    If Colin Craig had won in Rodney instead of coming second, the Conservatives would have 3 seats. National, Labour and the Greens would each have one seat less than they currently have.

    I’m sure the Conservatives will be there in 2014 and look forward to their constructive input.

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  73. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Indeed, Sean, I thought Colin Craig presented really well – so much better for getting rid of the face fuzz.

    Cleancut, clear in his views, not a hint of bluster. That all bodes well for him.

    A lot like Russell Norman, in fact :-)

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  74. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    KK

    I know this will really piss you off, but I have always been in the top 5% in most of my classes too.

    Sorry about that.

    I won’t be encouraging my three year old daughter to take up law, though.

    I’d like to think she contribute much more to the world – unless she takes on Geoffrey Robertson’s mantle, of course.

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  75. bhudson (4,738 comments) says:

    I know this will really piss you off, but I have always been in the top 5% in most of my classes too.

    We’ll continue to look for evidence of that here Luc

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  76. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Lance is a graduate of Reform School of course. :)

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  77. David Garrett (7,112 comments) says:

    Not hard to get in the top 5% in sociology and maori studies…

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  78. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    Any ACT voter who support these con scum were always paedophiles and to hell with them…

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  79. Johnboy (16,084 comments) says:

    Arabic is a bit tough though David.

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  80. nasska (11,281 comments) says:

    The Scorned

    So we can take that as a ‘no’ vote then?

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  81. Liberal Minded Kiwi (1,570 comments) says:

    The very last thing we need is another Tory party. Especially one full of people thrown out of other parties for being dickheads or people completely unelectable. The CCCP list makes NZF look good.

    These two parties are completely different. ACT may have died but if you were a believer in liberty and freedom, joining a Tory party would be the worst thing you could do. If you were in ACT and joined them or National, then you never were a supporter of the founding principles of ACT.

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  82. David Garrett (7,112 comments) says:

    Scorned: I would be little careful about throwing the paedophile stone old boy…glass houses and all that…What was that American guy Jim’s last name? Turned out to have ties to AMBLA… And then there was a former candidate in Canterbury…convicted last year…

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  83. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I’m a bit confused.

    Is johnboy stalking me with his “Lance” allusions?

    Or is he after someone else?

    If it’s me, JB, I have no idea what you are on about, so let us all in on the secret, please.

    If I have got it all wrong, please forgive me.

    Let’s hope the Warriors hang on!!!

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  84. Falafulu Fisi (2,179 comments) says:

    Tevita Garret, I think Luc Hansen is a falaleiti.

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  85. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    psss

    Hey David

    I’ve got fewer convictions than you, methinks :-)

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  86. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    FF

    I think you are a fuckwit.

    I guess that makes us even.

    Cheers.

    PS I’m not Tongan.

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  87. slijmbal (1,230 comments) says:

    Hey Luc

    do you realise how much of an infantile w*****r that comment makes you look like?

    Give it up – we all know DG and his convictions, weaknesses etc – how about arguing the point?

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  88. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    yep that’s correct. Most people never understood ACT. Indeed many in Act never did. Worse still Act never managed to accurately and convincingly convey its policies to the electorate. Idealism not realism unfortunately.

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  89. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    slijmbal

    Fair enough.

    But have you not noticed how David (and others) prefer to play the man rather than the ball?

    I’ve been here longer than you and have put up with a lot of shite.

    Sometimes, it just feels good to return serve for a bit.

    And if you read my comment carefully, you will see that I wasn’t actually criticizing him for having convictions.

    Unless you infer self-criticism.

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  90. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    big bruv (10,140) Says:
    May 5th, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    I just could not bring myself to vote for a party that might go into coalition with a religious nutbar party.

    There must be another option on the right if ACT cannot be resurrected.

    There will never be a viable option for you Bruv. You cange your mind like a old woman. Reckon you are a born socialist in drag.

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  91. Joel Rowan (99 comments) says:

    According to http://www.elections.org.nz/study/news/2011-media-releases/registration-of-conservative-party-7-10-2011.html they are called the Conservative Party of New Zealand, short name Conservative Party. Colin Craig’s name is not apparent, apart from being current leader of the party.

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  92. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    Luc, you invite the shit you gat by what you give out. Be a good socilaist and accept responsibility for your own doings. There’s a good lad.

    And that people have convictions only means that they got caught, not that you are a hollier than thou, goody two shoes. Mr Plod just hasn’t caught you yet. that’s all.
    Really simple. and oh by the way if you never do anything then you can never get hurt, nor do you have much fun with your life. Old saying says. live life to the full and go to the grave with everything worn out, battered and bruised having done so.
    You won’t do that sitting in front of a computer and not breaking a few rules along the way.

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  93. Joel Rowan (99 comments) says:

    I should add: I hope the conservative party is elected. As someone who on social issues falls between conservative and liberal, I think they deserve representation. Note that Con+Act in 2011 is roughly similar to Act alone in 2008, so the right wing has something to say here. There is a big market for reducing govt spending, being tough on law & order, and being in some ways conservative. The right wing beat the left wing considerably in 2011, it just doesn’t show in Parliament.

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  94. Viking2 (11,420 comments) says:

    ‘cuse me. the right wing beat the left. Ah no. the left beat the ultra left and the left right out. No right in Parliament these days. The Nats no longer subscribe to that view.

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  95. Letterman (184 comments) says:

    Family Court Summary Intro from my Ministry of Justice Family Court Review Submission:

    In 2010, The New Zealand Family Court (thereafter “the Court”), managing proceedings covering 23 Acts of Parliament (via 59 Family Courts, 51 Family Court judges, and 964 Family Court Lawyers), received 68,666 new applications to assist in resolving various types of family conflict, with Court expenditure reported by Justice Minister Simon Power having increased by 63% as at 2009 – 2010, from $83.9 million to $137 million p/a, since 2005 (Ministry of Justice, 2011).

    In 2009-2010, $60.7 million P/A of Court expenditure was allocated to Counselling, Mediation, and Psychological reports, $50.3 million P/A of Court expenditure was allocated to Legal Aid, $26.1 million of Court expenditure was allocated to Court operating costs, and $52.3 million P/A of Court expenditure was allocated to Care of Children applications (Ministry of Justice, 2011).

    Increased expenditure has reportedly not resulted in better client or service outcomes, particularly for children (Ministry of Justice, 2011). In fact, it does not appear to be clear as to what client or service outcomes are being measured, how they are being measured, or by whom.

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  96. Harriet (4,857 comments) says:

    Economic policy concerns for the average conservative voter are mostly being meet by National because Labour doesn’t offer anything like conservatives want.Therefor, as I predicted over at Stuff, on DF’s ‘predictions for 2012′ the “Conservatives will plonk themselves down right about where Winston is” and that prediction of mine was due to 3 things:

    1. Generally, votes to the right of National are somewhat meaningless as a party such as ‘fundamently economic’ ACT, would probably not form government with anyone other than National, so the likes of conservatives would not gain much at all by sitting to the right of national and taking national’s votes.And the result would eventually be the same as Act’s – gradual demise as policies are slowly made into law or rejected.Conservative concerns in NZ now relate primarily to social matters and the cost, which are to the left of national, and is where the natural home of conservatives would be vote wise and policy wise, and besides, rich people don’t place a social cost on society.

    2. The conservative voter’s social ‘concerns’ have been drowned out for 40yrs by the left’s ‘accusatory elites’, ‘racist’ ‘sexist’ ‘homophobe’ ‘xenophobe’ have all been used by academics and social researchers to shield the ‘poor results’ ‘consequences’ & ‘costs’ that the actions of the ‘youthful rebelious left’ have left in the wake of their progressive ‘fundamental social shift’. But with the extent of serious and current social problems remaining unchanged by successive policy ‘alterations’ based on ‘current’ research year after year, and the imbalance of ‘who is paying for it one way or the other’ then the conservative ‘voice’ of penalties for eg. non-attendance at schools, trashing state housing, acts of social disorder & the acts that lead to that disorder, DPB limits etc are coming to the fore: It’s a ‘line in the sand’ as to how to influence ‘progressive behaviour’ into individuals and society. And that is also why conservatives are strong on ‘law and order’.The religious and socially minded don’t mostly sit to the right of National, but the introduction of penalties by national have been accepted by all of it’s voters, meaning again that the conservatives should sit to nationals left.

    3. Labour has a lot of christians sitting within it’s voting base, and mostly they are doing the right thing by looking after their money, working hard, and having a social conscience. But with Labours reliance on the far left, and the far lefts contempt for morality, private property and ownership, religion, family, effort & reward, law & order and their acceptance of personal irresponsability, mild lawlessness, drugs and carelessness, then votes may well start to bleed from Labour when the conservatives gain media attention about policies that truely reflect what decent and proper labour voters are fighting for: a ‘better’ society.

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  97. laworder (290 comments) says:

    orewa1 wrote

    I don’t subscribe to the concept that politics or economics should be characterised as left, right, or anywhere in between.

    The purpose of both disciplines is to serve the people who populate an incredibly diverse society. Some people are born with more, or less capital – whether intellectual, monetary, or social. That’s the nature of society. But they all have a right to inhabit the planet and live a good life, interfacing positively with the citizens around them.

    We employ our politicians to reconcile the needs of these diverse citizens in a way that allows everyone to achieve their potential. We cannot make every citizen do so, but we can offer them all the best opportunity having regard to their capital.

    The political and economic system is there to meet the needs of the people, and not vice versa. Ideological posturing by career politicians without real life experience doesn’t cut the mustard. Voters want to know what kind of society New Zealand is going to be under any specific politician or party.

    We don’t know that. That is why ordinary people are disillusioned with politicians who blindly align themselves with ideological positions and parrot dogma, rather than talk about societal outcomes.

    We need to understand as a society what our diverse people are wanting, and what they are capable of doing. Then we need to govern our society to give them good lives. Its not all about economics nor money – they are important but not all-consuming.

    That means accepting the reality of who our citizens are, not pretending they are all capable of becoming intellectual giants if only we could find the policy mix to incentivise them.

    Hence why the debates about left versus right, ACT versus Conservative, and Winston versus David are irrelevant to most New Zealanders, and why Kiwis have become disengaged from politics. What they want are politicans who can articulate the values of the society they aspire to create, in a way that attracts them to want to live in it.

    When did we last have a politician who could actually articulate a visionm of the future of New Zealand, and inspire voters across the board?

    Agree with this – especially the bit about the left/right dichotomy. There are a number of issues, law and order being one, that transcend the left/right divide.

    mikenmild wrote

    David Garrett’s comment about ACT’s vote reducing and the Conservatives increasing at the behest of the Sensible Sentencing crowd was interesting. Maybe there is 2-3% out there that will go for whoever seems ‘toughest’ on law and order.

    There is indeed – for a number of people out there this is a primary or even sole concern. Certainly in the policy matrix that I draw up at each election prior to voting law and order/ justice policies have the greatest weighting

    Having heard Colin Craig speak at the last Trust conference, his was by far the best address to that audience (others were ACT and National). He displayed an innate understanding and excellent knowledge of the subject and tailored his speech accordingly, something the other two failed to do

    Regards
    Peter J
    see http://www.sensiblesentencing.org.nz

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  98. Pete George (23,481 comments) says:

    Agree with this – especially the bit about the left/right dichotomy. There are a number of issues, law and order being one, that transcend the left/right divide.

    I think orewa1’s comment was excellent, covering something that many inside then political bubbles are blind to.

    Even addressing economic policy needs to transcend the left/right divide, it has to find the right balance of local market, international influences and effects, and social considerations.

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  99. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    David Garett…..That last post of mine was just a frustrated rant…ignore.

    It was Jim Peron….and he didn’t have “ties” to Nambla….They had held meetings in the SanFrancisco bookstore he subsequently bought,after which he asked them to leave and go elsewhere,which they did.

    That old beat up has been done to death. And Jim’s still friends and in touch with many in NZ and ACToids including Rodney and David Seymore.

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  100. big bruv (13,734 comments) says:

    V2

    Goodness me!.

    Are you one of those bible bashing ‘Conservatives” who thinks that being forced to live by the words in a book of fiction is just the price you have to pay for being a right wing voter?

    If that is the case then count me out. I despise socialism with a passion however I will never support a party that writes policy based on the bible.

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  101. Chuck Bird (4,848 comments) says:

    “And Jim’s still friends and in touch with many in NZ and ACToids including Rodney and David Seymore.”

    I wonder if either of them would acknowledge they are friends with this sicko who was booted out of NZ with bloody good reason.

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  102. Paulus (2,608 comments) says:

    Even as a staunch Nat, in a large Nat majority I will listen to Craig and his views.
    Good Luck – go for it – lets have some policy – unlike the Labour Greens anti everything movement.

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  103. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    What reason Chuck? You know nothing so shut your sick bigoted sexually repressed mouth.

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  104. Chuck Bird (4,848 comments) says:

    Jim Peron was booted out of the country because deemed to be a danger to adolescent boys. Have you read any of his “fiction” stories about sex between a man and young boys. Well I have and on that basis I say Jim Peron is one sick puppy. I will ask Rodney and David Seymour if you claim about them being them being friends of Jim Peron is true.

    What are you so upset about? Was he your boyfriend?

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  105. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    The only story Jim wrote was as a personal piece about his OWN sexual awakening as a gay person who found love with an older person. It was never for publication but was taken and used in the publication “Unbound” by a Man named Tim who rented space in Jim’s bookstore. Jim’s appearance in Unbound is in the third person….he’s referred to and written about…he is not writing in the first person. Jim passed two FBI checks when he emigrated to South Africa and then here….no issues.

    So Chuck you old creepy perve…suck on that.Maybe we should do a background check on your shady past in the States Mr Bird….lets see what dodgy stuff you have to hide….

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  106. Chuck Bird (4,848 comments) says:

    Do you miss him?

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  107. Liberty (261 comments) says:

    National is doing a great job of looking after heartland NZ. It is also spending an awful lot of money on the lefties who have no intention of ever voting National.
    Where National is failing is looking after the right and the libertarians.
    The days of looking after all are gone. It went with the introduction of MMP.
    But ACT has passed it use by date.
    There is a place for a Right wing and Libertarian party that can work with National.
    CCCP is not an option as it’s a one man band as in the same ilk as Peters and his NZF
    In saying that if there was a choice between CCCP and NZF CCCP would be light years a head.

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  108. pq (728 comments) says:

    Farrar asks:

    Will CCP replace ACT
    = YES.
    also consider that many NZ First votes will transfer

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  109. laworder (290 comments) says:

    Will CCP replace ACT
    = YES.

    I suspect you are right here


    also consider that many NZ First votes will transfer

    And I certainly hope you are right about this! That would be a Very Good Thing

    I do have serious misgivings about Jim Peron although I am not intimately acquainted with the details of the matter. I met him a couple of times just before it all blew up and seemd like a nice guy, but something didnt ring true about the explanations afterwards. And it is damn hard to get someone booted out of NZ, it does NOT happen lightly, I know of a case involving a “gentleman” with a number of convictions since his arrival here including assault on a police officer and numerous fraud and threatening violence convictions – he is still here!

    I do share some of big bruv’s concerns re religiously driven policy positions, but would be prepared to concede some ground to the religiously inclined in return for better policy in other areas. And there are some areas of policy, eg alcohol where frankly I would welcome some input from those of a religious bent as they have an approach that acknowledges the serious harm that alcohol addiction can do. I will be watching the Conservatives with interest – I am not worried about Colin Craig at all, he is fine, but I do have some concerns about some of the other people within the party whom I fear may unwittingly sabotage Colin Craig’s work to date.

    Regards
    Peter J
    see http://www.sensiblesentencing.org.nz

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  110. Lee01 (2,171 comments) says:

    Will CCP replace ACT
    = YES.

    The fact is that there is no other viable party on the Right to replace ACT other than the Conservatives. National has largely adopted social liberalism, so what does another socially liberal party on the Right campaign on? And I disagree with those who claim that ACT had its best days when it was campaigning for social liberalism. I see no evidence of that. On the contrary, it did best when campaigning on law and order and the Treaty. There is no serious electoral room for yet another liberal party. The relative success of NZF over the years, including the last election, shows howerver that there is space for an old fashioned Tory party, and as DPF points out in the case of the Conservatives National will get one that, unlike NZF, is fiscally conservative.

    They need to do some work though, especially on policy development.

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  111. RRM (9,841 comments) says:

    Johnboy (7,647) Says:

    Doesn’t quite seem RIGHT that ACT should be replaced by CCCP! :)

    I like what you did there!

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