General Debate 25 October 2012

October 25th, 2012 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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123 Responses to “General Debate 25 October 2012”

  1. Colville (2,191 comments) says:

    First!

    Yesterdays Samsung Vs iPhone vote was 6 to 0 in favour of the Samsung.

    The people have spoken!

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  2. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/119064/carbon-price-fall-could-force-some-farmers-off-land

    Just goes to show that you can fool some of the people all the time.

    When these morons went into this sort of scheme they must have believed that we would all park up our cars and go buy a horse to get around on. In which case they should have invested in corn fields…..

    As with so many aspects of the whole climate scandal, this is another foolish idea that is based on naive thinking and a whole dollop of stupid logic.

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  3. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    More flips than a Kenyan pancake: http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/obama-says-to-look-at-videotape-for-his-flip-flo

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  4. tvb (4,255 comments) says:

    The High Court has released the Antonievic decision in which the processes of police undercover operations were criticized. What I find particularly disappointing is the response of Greg O’Connor of the Police Association when he criticised the Learned Judge. O’Connor simply does not get it. This is a case where the Court processes were suborned by the Police approaching the Chief Judge to get some sort of sign off for using fake names and fake charges and fake search warrants in a Court process. This amateur process obviously had no legal input and is essentially a bureaucratic attempt to get around the usual processes of the Court. O’Connor has no appreciation of the subtle distinction. I have serious doubts about the usefulness of evidence obtained by undercover Police operations. What is wrong with surveillance operations now that the law on search, seizure and surveillance has been updated. There are many ways around things and suborning the Judicial process risks the evidence obtained being ruled out and prosecutions being halted. Again O’Connor does not understand this.

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  5. RF (1,346 comments) says:

    Longknives… Your comment last night about the Good old days when the ABs were tough. I guess they would have been mere whimps when compared with the recent batch who have run naked through Tropical Island bars, crashing through ranch sliders, shooting seals, subject of sexual complaints, bankruptcy, DIC, wacking team mates with a handbag, jumping on a BMW etc….

    Pine Tree who only played with a broken arm could have learnt plenty from these guys.

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  6. Pete George (23,345 comments) says:

    The Green Party has launched a fundraising campaigning for ‘poverty’:

    Here is your opportunity to help the Green Party create practical and effective solutions to New Zealand’s Child Poverty crisis.

    Except the money isn’t going to go to poor people, it’s going to a political campaign that has futile aims. The bill Greens are supposedely promoting is doomed to fail, and money won’t change that.

    Poverty in New Zealand looks increasingly like a political device for Green Party campaigning – Green Party politics of poverty.

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  7. grumpyoldhori (2,416 comments) says:

    With the charter schools going to fix all the ills of education in NZ I’m wondering just how they will do it with kids from homes who go to school with no breakfast, a cut lunch, you must be kidding.

    Now since we all agree far too many NZ kids have parents that do not give a flying fuck about them, why are we fucking about with charter schools when the solution is hitting us between the eyes.

    Rather than fuck about with charter schools let us copy schoolss that

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  8. Lance (2,565 comments) says:

    More stuff ups than a upholstery factory
    With friends like this……..
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10842701

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  9. Paulus (2,565 comments) says:

    See that Winston is once again spitting the dummy in Parliament when he cannot get his own way.
    Saw some of his his antics yesterday – why doesn’t Lockwood realise that Winston is the Parliament and all should be allowed to listen to his Pearls of Wisdom, when he interrupts.
    The look on Labour’s faces says it all as they like this kind of distraction as they have so little of sense to say.
    Key loved wopping Shearer as he did yesterday – great sport, poor Shearer as he really is a nice guy, but not a Labour politician – he is too honest for them.
    Winston knows how to spend other people’s money, better than Labour even, which he has still not paid back.
    His behaviour shows his dottage (and I know as am one of the dottagers also).

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  10. grumpyoldhori (2,416 comments) says:

    work, namely Dilworth school.
    We need to get to get a lot of kids into a better environment, where they bloody learn one has to WORK at school to get on.

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  11. Tauhei Notts (1,651 comments) says:

    I hope my posts are not boring you, but here goes.
    ODDS UPDATE
    Obama out to $1.55 from $1.53
    Romney in to $2.80 from $2.92
    That trend suggests that election day will come too soon for Romney.

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  12. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    Grumpy….

    Dilworth works because its uses lots of stuff that many parents dont like – religion and parental involvement etc.

    Other schools are never going to work until some sort of discipline is returned to schools.

    Oh – by the way. Dilworth is essentially a charter school – thats why it works………………..

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  13. Viking2 (11,283 comments) says:

    Property expert says up to 20 per cent of Auckland’s homes must go for infill and high-rise to cope with growth.
    Between 50,000 and 80,000 Auckland homes have to be demolished and replaced with townhouses and apartments to create the world’s most liveable city.

    Now I suspect that will get the heritage people snotty and of course all the inner circle people will just luv that their precious houses don’t matter to others.

    Oh dear. Auckland craps its own nest again.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10842681

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  14. Nookin (3,185 comments) says:

    tvb

    I agree. O’Connor is a PR disaster for the police. He is a complete anachronism. Just last week he went on about the ritualistic humiliation of the police following the release of the auditor-general’s report on police culture and then proceeded to denigrate the office of the auditor-general.

    He has no sense of balance and is quite oblivious to public perceptions of the police.

    While he goes on about the need for creativity he simply doesn’t seem to understand that the courts have to be one step removed from the investigative and prosecutorial processes. How will anyone feel satisfied that they will get a fair trial if there is a perception that judges and police work hand in hand in detecting and prosecuting criminals.

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  15. Fairfacts Media (371 comments) says:

    What a lying bastard Obama is!
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/24/us-usa-benghazi-emails-idUSBRE89N02C20121024

    The White House knew all along it was a terrorist attack at Benghazi, even before the diplomat was killed.
    Yet, Obama and his crew continued to blame a crappy movie for weeks.
    Trouble is, what did his lies achieve.
    Well, apart from proving Obama and his government to be a corrupt bunch of liars, they also needly whipped crazy muslims into a frenzy the world over, concerning a film no-one had until then heard about!
    How many people died needlessly because of this, just to cover Obama’s back?

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  16. kowtow (7,955 comments) says:

    tvb

    The history of law and order is littered with cases where the police seek to infiltrate criminal gangs in order to bring them to justice and judges throw out the evidence. While judges are protecting important principles ,the police seek to protect the public.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9619952/Sian-OCallaghan-killer-escapes-justice-for-second-murder-after-police-blunder.html

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  17. Keeping Stock (10,181 comments) says:

    Excellent post Pete. The Greens would get far more kudos if they raised money to directly assist people in need rather than lining their own war-chest for more political posturing. You are dead right to have pinged them on this.

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  18. Viking2 (11,283 comments) says:

    Oh dear, it gets worse.

    Voters think the Government has failed to do a good job in four areas over the last year, according to a 3 News Reid Research poll.

    The poll asked 1000 voters four questions about the National-led Government’s performance.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10842639

    Watch all the excuses roll out. Like, earthquakes, gfc,etc etc.
    No buck stops here stuff.
    Appeasing the Maori Party, rolling over for the Greenbacks in The Nats., generally piss poor bunch of Cabinet Ministers, Total lack of vision, just aspirations.

    Time for a change (Muldoon said that didn’t he?) :lol:

    But to what. The nats have stuffed themselves and everybody else. Where else can voters go other than oversea’s?

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  19. Viking2 (11,283 comments) says:

    Nookin; says,
    While he goes on about the need for creativity he simply doesn’t seem to understand that the courts have to be one step removed from the investigative and prosecutorial processes. How will anyone feel satisfied that they will get a fair trial if there is a perception that judges and police work hand in hand in detecting and prosecuting criminals.

    Well we could start by separating prosecutors from the police and target their job as one of establishing the evidence to put before an independent prosecutor.

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  20. Griff (7,008 comments) says:

    Please no don’t win Obuma
    I can not face another term of the Kenyan, the Muslim and all the rest of the personal insults that is the USA presidential electioneering.
    Plus I was looking forwards to the realisation that Romney is no better and some of his friends are way worse

    Media fact-checkers at the New York Times, the Associated Press, and Factcheck.org accused Ryan of “a litany of falsehoods”Politifact.com rated 33 of Ryan’s statements which it suspected of being false or misleading: True:10.5%, Mostly True:18%, Half True:21%, Mostly False:36%, False:9% Pants on Fire:6%

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  21. Viking2 (11,283 comments) says:

    Shit its cold in Sunny Tauranga this morning. Steam on the breath.

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  22. Nookin (3,185 comments) says:

    V2
    The idea has merits.

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  23. Keeping Stock (10,181 comments) says:

    Be careful what you wish for Viking2 :D

    Do you REALLY want Labour, the Greens, Winston First, Hone and the Maori Party governing New Zealand?

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  24. Lance (2,565 comments) says:

    @Viking2
    “Where else can voters go other than oversea’s?”

    You mean like to Aus.

    The SST had an article on this expat guy who badly hurt himself in Thailand (or somewhere). He lived (and paid taxes) in Perth but came back to NZ to get fixed up in hospital (months of major reconstruction etc) and is now long term on the sickness benefit here because he can’t get it that Aus being an NZer.
    He no doubt left NZ telling us we were all losers here and things are soooooooooooooooooooooooo much better in Aus.

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  25. tom hunter (4,568 comments) says:

    Media fact-checkers at the New York Times, the Associated Press, and Factcheck.org

    Muhahahah – that crowd? The whole “Ryan is a liar” theme seems to have fallen away since its utility as a political weapon has declined the further we move away from the GOP convention. But at the time, when other people dug into these supposed “fact-checkers” what they found was disagreement on policy and such like. In other words they were opinions not facts. As just one example, around the workfare requirement changes of the Obama administration they simply took the press release that denied that changes were slackening the rules: they did not even bother asking the guy who wrote the original legislation – and his “opinion” was that Ryan and company were right on the money.

    The whole “fact-checking” thing is simply the last gasp of the old “balanced-but-left-wing” bullshit from the MSM.

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  26. Griff (7,008 comments) says:

    The whole “fact-checking” thing is simply the last gasp of the old “balanced-but-left-wing” bullshit from the MSM.

    Funny that tom. You would not be somewhat prejudice in your evaluation of http://factcheck.org/ ?
    Seems to have an equal weighting between the candidates in fact would seem to be targeting Obama more on its home page

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  27. tom hunter (4,568 comments) says:

    You would not be somewhat prejudice ….

    Well, experience with these guys – like the example above – tends to build on any prejudice I have towards the MSM. But the word “prejudice” itself implies an irrational attitude not based on evidence, and I would say that there has been a growing mountain of evidence over the years that the MSM leans well towards the Democrats in the USA. I actually don’t think it’s even much of a debate anymore, whereas it was ten years ago.

    Here’s another example of it that I came across the other day, where an interesting fact about an Ohio politician who lost his seat in 2010 but is trying to win it back – Charlie Wilson:

    As far as I can tell, not one news entity in Ohio has picked up the story about revelations of spousal abuse by Rep. Charlie Wilson in his divorce papers.

    Not a one.

    In fact, the only news groups that have even mentioned the story are Townhall.com, our old friend David Freddoso in the Washington Examiner, and here and a few other blogs.

    This portion of Charlie Wilson’s divorce records is unsealed; they’ve been sitting in an Ohio courthouse for two decades. It’s rather striking that this is the first time anyone thought to look at them.

    There is no disputing that grabbing your wife by the neck and throwing her against the refrigerator, punching and kicking her, and leaving her covered in bruises is a violent crime and a felony. The only reason Charlie Wilson never wore handcuffs was because his wife didn’t file charges.

    It is hard to believe that this open piece of information has not been picked up by the MSM, but as the writer says:

    We don’t have a news business. We have a narrative-reinforcement business, and they do a strikingly effective job of collectively averting their eyes from information that hurts their preferred cause. For Pete’s sake, this is wife-beating we’re talking about, and it is admitted in a public record. How is this not news? How is this not something that the voters in Ohio’s 6th congressional district ought to know about before they cast their vote?

    This, in part, is what this election is about. The double standard is now so large you can’t get your head around it. We cannot have a healthy democracy where those whose job is to inform the public see their first duty as protecting the reputations of their preferred incumbents.

    The title of the article is: Apparently Wife-Beating Isn’t Big News in Ohio. Well, it isn’t if you’re an Ohioan who still reads nothing but the newspapers and watches the local affiliate TV stations.

    I forgot to add that Wilson is a Democrat. You’re damned right I’m “prejudiced” against the MSM.

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  28. Fletch (6,151 comments) says:

    Fairfacts, it gets even worse.

    According to an article in the Washington Post, the “Embassy” wasn’t even really an embassy. Ambassador Stevens real mission in Bengazi was gun running for the Obama Administration. Smuggling weapons to the rebels in Libya, more than likely affiliated with Al Qaeda, and they’re still going it – supplying weapons to enemies of the U.S. It’s TREASON.

    Thanks to intrepid investigative reporting — notably by Bret Baier and Catherine Herridge at Fox News, Aaron Klein at WND.com and Clare Lopez at RadicalIslam.org — and information developed by congressional investigators, the mystery is beginning to unravel with regard to what happened that night and the reason for the subsequent, clumsy official cover-up now known as Benghazigate.

    The evidence suggests that the Obama administration has not simply been engaging, legitimating, enriching and emboldening Islamists who have taken over or are ascendant in much of the Middle East. Starting in March 2011, when American diplomat J. Christopher Stevens was designated the liaison to the “opposition” in Libya, the Obama administration has been arming them, including jihadists like Abdelhakim Belhadj, leader of the al Qaeda franchise known as the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group.

    Once Moammar Gadhafi was overthrown, Stevens was appointed ambassador to the new Libya run by Mr. Belhadj and his friends. Not surprisingly, one of the most important priorities for someone in that position would be to try to find and secure the immense amount of armaments that had been cached by the dictator around the country and systematically looted during and after the revolution.

    One of the places in Libya most awash with such weapons in the most dangerous of hands is Benghazi. It now appears that Stevens was there — on a particularly risky day, with no security to speak of and despite now copiously documented concerns about his own safety and that of his subordinates — for another priority mission: sending arms recovered from the former regime’s stocks to the “opposition” in Syria. As in Libya, the insurgents are known to include al Qaeda and other Shariah-supremacist groups, including none other than Abdelhakim Belhadj.

    Fox News has chronicled how the Al Entisar, a Libyan-flagged vessel carrying 400 tons of cargo, docked on Sept. 6 in the Turkish port of Iskenderun. It reportedly supplied both humanitarian assistance and arms — including deadly SA-7 man-portable surface-to-air missiles — apparently destined for Islamists, again including al Qaeda elements, in Syria.

    What cries out for further investigation — and debate in the remaining days of this presidential election — is whether this shipment was part of a larger covert Obama effort to transfer weapons to our enemies that could make the Iran-Contra scandal, to say nothing of Operation Fast and Furious, pale by comparison.

    Investigative journalist Aaron Klein has reported that the “consulate in Benghazi” actually was no such thing. He observes that although administration officials have done nothing to correct that oft-repeated characterization of the facility where the murderous attack on Stevens and his colleagues was launched, they call it a “mission.” What Mr. Klein describes as a “shabby, nondescript building” that lacked any “major public security presence” was, according to an unnamed Middle Eastern security official, “routinely used by Stevens and others to coordinate with the Turkish, Saudi and Qatari governments on supporting the insurgencies in the Middle East, most prominently the rebels opposing Assad’s regime in Syria.”

    We know that Stevens‘ last official act was to hold such a meeting with an unidentified “Turkish diplomat.” Presumably, the conversation involved additional arms shipments to al Qaeda and its allies in Syria. It also may have involved getting more jihadi fighters there. After all, Mr. Klein reported last month that, according to sources in Egyptian security, our ambassador was playing a “central role in recruiting jihadists to fight Bashar al-Assad’s regime in Syria.”

    It gets worse. Last week, Center for Security Policy senior fellow and former career CIA officer Clare Lopez observed that there were two large warehouse-type buildings associated with the so-called “consulate” whose purpose has yet to be disclosed. As their contents were raided in the course of the attack, we may never know for sure whether they housed — and were known by the local jihadis to house — arms, perhaps administered by the two former Navy SEALs killed along with Stevens.

    What we do know is that the New York Times — one of the most slavishly pro-Obama publications in the country — reported in an Oct. 14 article, “Most of the arms shipped at the behest of Saudi Arabia and Qatar to supply Syrian rebel groups fighting the government of Bashar Assad are going to hard-line Islamic jihadists, and not the more secular opposition groups that the West wants to bolster.”

    In short, it seems President Obama has been engaged in gun-walking on a massive scale. The effect has been to equip America’s enemies to wage jihad not only against regimes it once claimed were our friends, but inevitably against us and our allies as well. That would explain his administration’s desperate and now failing bid to mislead the voters through the serial deflections of Benghazigate.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/oct/22/the-real-reason-behind-benghazigate/

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  29. Griff (7,008 comments) says:

    Straw man
    Tom I referred to a specific site that you had accursed of bias

    You then start to waffle on about a totally different subject. With out doubt the msm in the USA is political. I do not expect to see support for the left or liberal from fox ether.
    As to the fascination with playing the man not the policy. That is going to send the usa further on its death spiral towards economic suicide.

    Never mind :lol:

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  30. Fletch (6,151 comments) says:

    Glen Beck alleges more –

    Now we have [the] beginning of the truth on Benghazi.  Five days into the Benghazi scandal, when no one was saying anything, I presented a theory…I told you that [Ambassador Stevens] was involved in running guns, and he was running guns to al-Qaeda in Libya, and he was running guns through Turkey into Syria.  And whether it was a deal that went bad, I don’t know, but that’s what happened.  And the White House knew…And while everyone else was arguing about whether it was a videotape or not, we were furthering the story.

    Today we have evidence that is staggering.  We now have a memo posted [at] TheBlaze…to the White House two hours after the attacks began.  Last night on the TV show I laid it out again…exactly what happened, when.  – and so you know, do not let any member of the press get away with calling this an embassy safe house.  It is not.  It was a CIA safe house.  Now why, in the most dangerous place in one of the most dangerous parts of the world, on Sept. 11…why would he be at a CIA safe house? …We now know he was having dinner with the general counsel of Turkey. 

    An hour after that, the Turkish ambassador leaves through the front door and the front gate, unmolested.  Now you tell me– why was the Turkish general counsel there?  …Why was it so important on Sept. 11 to go to the most dangerous city, into a CIA safe house?

    An hour after he leaves, the fight begins.  We now know that the White House– somebody, the military, somebody, sent a drone.  So there was a live video feed of what was going on.  They’re watching it in the State Department, they’re watching it at the Pentagon, they’re watching it at Langley, and they’re watching it in the Situation Room.  At 5:00 in the afternoon, Leon Panetta has a meeting with the president of the United States.  The first email comes at 4:05.  So the Secretary of Defense arrives at the White House to have a meeting with the president 55 minutes after the Situation Room and everybody else gets an email saying, ‘Libya, the safe house is under attack.” 

    Beck proceeded to read several more emails explaining how our personnel in Benghazi were missing and under attack, before he got to one timestamped at 6:07.  According to the memo, Ansar al-Sharia had claimed responsibility for the attack and– though he isn’t sure– Beck said it’s possible that Ansar al-Sharia was one of the groups that we gave arms and funding to during the war to overthrow Gaddhafi.

    “This is why the White House covered, because our ambassador was killed by [guys] we were running guns to, and we are still running guns today.”

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/treason-and-possible-prison-beck-breaks-down-obamas-lying-on-libya-in-fiery-segment/

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  31. Ross12 (1,279 comments) says:

    Seems to me the Left in NZ has only one idea left and they have flogged it off the Aussies. Just like Gillard and co relentously attacking Abbott , personally, the NZ left’s only idea is to think they can get rid of John Key. Last week Brian Edwards wrote a pathetic column in the NBR ( online) betting that Key would resign by mid next year. Now this morning Yahoo is running a poll asking if Key should resign over the Dotcom affair.
    I have a bit more faith in the intelligence of the average voter who I think will see through the stupid games.

    PS . It is no wonder Russell Norman wants start up the printing press — yesterday in my very quick look through the news I saw 3 calls ( in different areas) for more Government spending and it was only Wednesday !!!

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  32. Ed Snack (1,801 comments) says:

    What is it with Tom Scott and his obsessive cartoons about the US elections ? He fucks it up yet again today, he is too stupid to realise that Iran currently has sanctions applied against it that prevent the importation of a number of items that are important to, amongst other program’s, its weapons and nuclear developments. Thus Syria acts as a conduit for these items, and is then “Iran’s route to the sea” in the context of Romney’s remark.

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  33. tom hunter (4,568 comments) says:

    Tom I referred to a specific site that you had accursed of bias

    You then start to waffle on about a totally different subject.

    For crying out loud griff – they’re connected. That site was created by the Annenberg Public Policy Center, the same outfit involved with the hopeless Chicago Annenburg Challenge that ran a public school “reform” project from 1995 to 2001 in that city. It was shut down because it proved to be a complete waste of time – hardly a surprise when its ideas were dingbat left-wing ones about teaching kids “social justice in math” and such like. My wife was teaching in the city at the time so we were aware of the project. Fortunately her school stiffed the “reforms” before they could screw up any kids there. Of course I took no notice of the minor celebrity who chaired the thing – a guy called Barack Obama.

    Funnily enough the guy who originally set up the Annenburg Foundation was a Reagan supporter! It’s safe to say that it has long since run onto the other political set of rails: they fund all sorts of left-wing things that push all the usual left-wing buttons, of which the Chicago effort was just one. And now “factcheck.org. But you’d trust them?

    With out doubt the msm in the USA is political. I do not expect to see support for the left or liberal from fox ether.

    They’re more overtly political than ever before as the media markets fracture. But the point that right-wingers like me continually make is that there is only one Fox News – whereas there’s ABC, NBC, CBS, NYT, WaPo, MSNBC, and so forth. When the day comes that the media outlets (TV, print, Internet) pushing partisan or ideological approaches to news roughly balance out in number, then I’ll be fine with it. Until then, Fox plus right-wing Internet sites does not cut it as an equivalence.

    As to the fascination with playing the man not the policy.

    Plenty of criticism has been unloaded on the media’s bird-bath deep capabilities for dealing with policy issues, especially as mass media has trended towards tabloid coverage across the board (“Look, The Ridges!”).

    But does it not occur to you that this is more than just media fascination with personalities, that it actually is how the modern left-wing has operated? The almost total reliance on emotive, Manichaean arguments that seemlessly combines with a demonisation of the opponent? I’d say that and “personalities” feed on eachother to produce the situation you describe.

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  34. Pete George (23,345 comments) says:

    Although mostly frequently “down with National” posts interspersed with copious “John Key’s a liar’ diatribes there are ocasionally some good posts and comments at The Standard. Here is one excellent post:

    Shifting ground: PPL

    The government is vulnerable around the Paid Parental Leave Bill. They don’t want it to pass, but they risk losing support from women for not supporting it. A financial veto of an entire Bill has never been done before, and it’s experimental for the government. There are certain clear rules around excercising the right of veto, but there also seems to be some uncertainty around specific procedures.

    http://thestandard.org.nz/shifting-ground-ppl/

    There’s more good reading there.

    English can’t just dismiss this with what appears to be grossly inaccurate cost estimates. If National aren’t very careful and reasonable on this bill then Bill English’s arrogant dismissal could weight significantly against National’s middle New Zealand support.

    And what will National’s intervention achieve? Probably only a slight postponement in a PPL extension being introduced by the next Labour led government – and what stop Labour from extending it further than 26 weeks when they have guaranteed numbers to succeed?

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  35. tom hunter (4,568 comments) says:

    Thus Syria acts as a conduit for these items, and is then “Iran’s route to the sea” in the context of Romney’s remark.

    Indeed, and there’s another blatant example of media stupidity committed even as they think they’re being clever, as well as “factchecking” that’s just as brainless. The legal website in the US has a good piece on this: How Syria is Iran’s Route to the Sea:

    “Syria is Iran’s only ally in the Arab world. It’s their route to the sea.” So said Mitt Romney at the Monday debate. The Associated Press, The Guardian, The Telegraph, New York, U.S. News, Brad DeLong, Rachel Maddow’s Maddowblog, Comedy Central, and The Daily Kos promptly seized the opportunity to show off their superior geographical knowledge, pointing out that Iran has a coastline. The explicit or implicit explanation was that Romney does not even know basic geography. “Romney Flubs Geography” announced the A.P. headline on the Washington Post website.

    But as the article goes on to note, these brains – and Tom Scott – could have gone to a site as humble as Yahoo Answers to understand what Romney was getting at:

    Q. Why did Romney say that Syria is Iran’s “route to the sea”? …when 1) Iraq stands between Syria and Iran, and 2) Iran already has the Persian Gulf, not to mention the Indian Sea?

    A. Romney was speaking in the context of the debate topic on foreign policy and the sanctions restricting the finances and trade of Iran. Although Iran is indeed located on the seacoast of the Indian Ocean and the Persian Gulf, the international trade sanctions have restricted and impeded its ability to transport armaments and other goods through its own seaports. To defeat these trade sanctions, Iran has resorted to using its air transportation to transport goods through an air corridor in Iraqi airspace into Syria and its seaports, such as Latakia.

    Or if that’s too low-brow they could have gone to expert websites such as StrategyPage:

    An Iranian ship at the Syrian port of Tartus (also spelled “Tartous”) picked up Syrian oil for delivery to China, to evade the economic sanctions on Syria (Mar. 30, 2012). Iran warships docked at the port of Latakia in early 2012 (Feb. 18, 2012), and in early 2011 (Feb. 22, 2011; Feb. 24, 2011). During the 2011 visit, the Iranian navy’s commander, Admiral Habibollah Sayyari, announced that Iran was ready to help Syria improve its port facilities, and to collaborate on technical projects with Syria.

    So Romney – as usual – does not make a good explanation. Still, it’s a “fact” that Syria is Iran’s “route to the sea” – it might not be a great one but it’s the only real one that Iran has.

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  36. Redbaiter (8,032 comments) says:

    Tom Hunter- You can’t fix stupid. I am always just utterly gobsmacked to read such statements as Griefs, and it makes me shudder to think that such wrong thinking is so deeply ingrained in such a large portion of our society.

    Anyone so detached from reality (at this late stage) as to give credence to “fact checkers” at the NYT and AP and Factcheck.org is so deeply immersed in the left wing delusion they will never snap out of it.

    If some people haven’t (by now) latched on to the obvious reality that most of the so called media is not the objective and non-partisan information service it claims to be, but rather a massive political force lying cheating and deceiving for the sole purpose of perverting democracy to benefit their left wing controllers, then they never will.

    Once again though, I greatly admire your persistence and patience. You really are a champion.

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  37. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Tom Scott is an old codger and bleeding heart Labourite. His cartoons reflect his political bias.

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  38. Redbaiter (8,032 comments) says:

    Ever been threatened by a bushfire Tom?

    Once I was driving through a section of Australia prone to such events, and as I drove, I found myself surrounded by smoke and debris and flames, and I did not know what direction I should take to avoid getting burned to death. The smoke was blinding, and it was coming from every direction. By luck more than by good judgement I managed to find a way to safety.

    The reason I mention this event is that it lately occurred to me that the helplessness I felt when lost in that smoke and heat is a foundational metaphor for the political events of today.

    Today though our whole western civilisation is facing a similar threat, and we are hemmed in by the same blindingly oppressive smoke and the same lack of a clear way out.

    There is one stark difference. The fire back in Australia was real. The threat we face from the left is a compound of deceit and illusion and mirage. If we ever find a way out of this mess, I think its once again going to be a matter of luck more than judgment.

    On the other hand, the talk of civil war in the US seems to be getting stronger. I often find myself wondering if that outcome is already inevitable.

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  39. iMP (2,345 comments) says:

    Trump’s big ‘revelation’ about Obama is tomorrow (NZ time) but he’s relesaed a vid today cranking up the ante. Does the Donald really have something significant on OB?

    http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2012/10/25/trump-obama-round-ii

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  40. David Garrett (6,786 comments) says:

    Greg O’Connor of the Police Association has been in his desk job far too long. Despite the results thus far, he remains opposed to “three strikes”. Every beat cop I have ever spoken to says – off the record of course – that they are wholeheartedly in favour of it.

    It it well known that he burningly wants to be an MP for the Socialists?

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  41. Fletch (6,151 comments) says:

    iMP, no big revelation. It’s just an offer.

    He’s offered Obama $6 million to show his records.

    Donald Trump wants to make a deal with President Barack Obama.

    If Obama releases his college and passport records by the end of October, the New York real estate mogul and reality show host says he will contribute US$5 million (NZ$6.09m) to a charity of the president’s choice.

    Trump made the offer early today (NZ time) in a video posted to his Twitter account. He called Obama “the least transparent president in the history of this country,” and said that by taking the deal Obama would satisfy voters’ questions about his past.

    Trump drew broad publicity last year for questioning whether Obama was born in the US and eligible to be president. Obama later released his long-form birth certificate showing that he was born in Hawaii in 1961.

    In the video, Trump said he was proud to have pushed Obama to release the birth certificate or “whatever it may be.”

    Trump has endorsed Republican Mitt Romney for president. Obama campaign spokeswoman Jennifer Psaki declined to comment on the Trump video, saying “given Trump is one of his biggest supporters, this is a question best directed to the Romney team in Boston.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/7860165/Trump-offers-6m-for-Obama-records

    I don’t see Obama taking him up on it.

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  42. Fletch (6,151 comments) says:

    Poor kids :(

    Shown Paranormal Activity 4, instead of Madagascar 3, by mistake.

    Mistakes happen in movie theaters on time– films start late, the house lights don’t go down on time, and in places that are still showing actual film, sometimes that film catches on fire. But it’s rare that a mistake happens that so drastic it sends the audience actually running for the exits, with children screaming in horror.

    And yet, that was exactly the dramatic scene at a British movie theater this week, when a group of parents and kids gathered to see Madagascar 3 were mistakenly shown Paranormal Activity 4.

    As one parent told Yahoo UK, they realized fairly quickly that something wasn’t right, but the movie opens almost immediately with a flashback from the first film– when Katie flings her bloodied body directly toward the camera.

    That’s a jump scare that had audiences everywhere losing their minds, but you can imagine just how poorly it went over with the child audience. “Everybody just scrambled for the exits, all you could hear were children crying and screaming.

    Everyone was very upset. It was only about two minutes worth of the film but it was enough to scar them for life.”

    http://www.cinemablend.com/new/British-Children-Scarred-Life-Shown-Paranormal-Activity-4-Instead-Madagascar-3-33737.html

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  43. Pete George (23,345 comments) says:

    On the other hand, the talk of civil war in the US seems to be getting stronger. I often find myself wondering if that outcome is already inevitable.

    That may be little more than wishful thinking on a few extreme blogs. Or maybe you can point to substantial discussion on the strength of these talks?

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  44. RF (1,346 comments) says:

    David Garrett… You do realize that Greg O’Connor is brother of Damien the labour MP. Hence the left leaning.

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  45. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    The poor are increasingly exposed to market forces, with tougher conditions on the diminishing state protection they get, while the rich have unprecedented levels of protection from the state, with virtually no strings attached.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/24/stop-protecting-rich-market-forces

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  46. Scott Chris (5,981 comments) says:

    There is no disputing that grabbing your wife by the neck and throwing her against the refrigerator, punching and kicking her, and leaving her covered in bruises is a violent crime and a felony.

    Is that fair and balanced reporting? According to the Washington Examiner article, Wilson only admitted to:

    …grabbing plaintiff by the arms and shaking her. He admits grabbing her around the neck with one hand. He admits bruising plaintiffs’ arms and neck.”

    What we need to form an objective opinion is circumstantial context, which the Examiner has failed to provide. Was his wife attacking him? Was he defending himself? Did he attack her? Seems the desire to produce an impartial account of the incident is lacking at both ends of the political spectrum.

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  47. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    No conspiracies… I think not…look at this whopper from Ford not BK’s

    Ford Motor Co. shutters plant in Belgium, lays off over 4000 workers. Moving to Thailand good workers and low paid No Unions and work 7 days a week.

    maxkeiserreport.com

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  48. Scott Chris (5,981 comments) says:

    Glen Beck alleges more –

    :roll: Cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo :!:

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  49. tom hunter (4,568 comments) says:

    Ever been threatened by a bushfire Tom?

    Thankfully no – but I’ve read some sad and gruesome stories about them. As you say, it’s the helplessness that was as terrifying as anything else.

    As to the current situation? Well, I admit that it’s bleak, but I comfort myself with the thought that it’s actually not as obviously bleak as some past times – at least for the USA, for which there is always Churchill’s famous aphorism.

    To be more blunt, as the famous economist Herbert Stein, put it: “If something cannot go on forever, it will stop,”. I think that simple intrusion of reality will hit sooner or later, despite the best propaganda efforts of the left-wing and the get-along-go-along mentality of the average person – which I blame as much as any education of them or information being fed to them by calculating leftists. If you truly believe that people should be responsible for their own choices then there comes a point where one simply has to let people choose their own poison and do as much as possible to avoid the ensuing meltdown.

    It’s the main reason that I would disagree with you about your take on the Left-media complex – Gramsci and all. It seems to me that it’s the flipside of leftists who are convinced that we buy “stuff” because we’ve been brainwashed by advertising. In addition I don’t think 99% of the Left-Media are smart enough to operate that way. Also, I think it’s as much an extension of the attitude of non-media people described above – that they’ll just emotively flow with the crowd. As they perceive it that is; we’re already beginning to see some turn on Obama as he begins to acquire the smell of a loser. The “ideas” must survive, and if that means Obama gets thrown under the bus by the left then so be it.

    All this is not to say that it would be better to avoid that path. I’d like to think the US Federal government could slash its spending back to the levels of just 2007/2008 – but I don’t think it can summon the will. I also think that’s why DPF has evinced so little interest in the US election and so lazily touted the likes of the NYT: he thinks the US is fucked and has said as much. I’ve sometimes said much the same – but my take is that while I’d like the problems to be solved rationally, they will be solved one way or another – probably with what looks a lot like bankruptcy across a score of public institutions.

    Having said that, look at the state of Wisconsin, the starting point for public unions decades ago. That was a massive fight, and yet the GOP came through with real, actual changes on the ground that have hurt the left and set them back a long way, both in terms of what they can do practically for blackmailing politicians in negotiations and elections, and also in terms of PR/Media. Then there’s my old home state of Illinois where, as Mead puts it: “You could probably make a pretty good case that Illinois is ground zero of the collapse of the blue model”.

    So perhaps they’ll muddle through. I think the next four years will be crucial. Nobody knows exactly what level of debt will finally start the cascade of fear, but given that it’s the biggest economy in the world I don’t think it will rest upon debt/GDP levels but outright quantities: $20 trillion, $25 trillion?

    It’s a bit like the US Presidential campaign, where Obama strove to present an image of being an inevitable winner and Romney as a mean, strange loser. That bubble was popped in the first debate. When I look at Illinois and California I see a lot of other left-wing bubbles popping sooner or later as well.

    As far as the rest of the West is concerned? Well, Europe has totally wrecked itself twice last century so that’s hardly new, and Australia seems to work better than most. I actually put my confidence in places like Brazil, parts of Asia and India. As long as the principles of liberty, free speech and capitalism exist in parts of the world those spots will do well. As long as those ideas live somewhere in the world I’m not going to sweat the death of societies that forgot them.

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  50. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    I don’t see Obama taking him up on it.

    If not, why not?
    Not without reason he’s called the Manchurian President.

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  51. Scott Chris (5,981 comments) says:

    Trump’s big ‘revelation’ about Obama is tomorrow

    :roll: Cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo :!:

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  52. Fletch (6,151 comments) says:

    Scott Chris,

    Do you think it’s too big a leap from Obama helping out the Libyan rebels with air support to depose Gaddafi, to the Obama Administration supplying the same rebels with guns? Sounds like something he’d do. Only, these same rebels are affiliated with Al Qaeda. So Obama is really helping the enemies of the U.S. This is WAY, WAY worse than any Watergate scandel.

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  53. tom hunter (4,568 comments) says:

    Is that fair and balanced reporting?

    That’s an excellent point Scott and I cannot wait for numerous media outlets in Ohio to publish the story far and wide and provide circumstantial context.

    Sarcasm aside, the actual point of course is that they have not touched the story at all, probably because in a political race there is no “context” that could overcome the simple fact of physical assault on his wife – and I think they know that.

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  54. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    Is it possible to see a ‘Watergate scandal’ in the US media today ?

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  55. Viking2 (11,283 comments) says:

    Maori Party withdraws support for changes to ETS

    Thursday, 25, Oct, 2012 11:08AM

    The Maori Party has withdrawn its support for the Government’s bill making changes to the Emissions Trading Scheme.

    The second reading of the bill, which removes a specified entry date for agriculture in to the scheme, changes other cost structures and technical matters, is expected in Parliament this afternoon.

    It’ll pass with the support of the ACT and United Future MPs – by one vote.

    Maori Party co-leader Tariana Turia says they voted for the original bill because it had initiatives in place to mitigate the impact of cost increases on families.

    She says it’s ended up not only achieving the environmental outcomes it aimed for, but it’s created a commercial market for speculators.

    This crap is exactly why we are going no place.
    The MP have decided its a no goer but the nuts and hairy head will continue.

    Mind you, the MP criticizing “a market for speculators” is a bit rich when they manage it all under the clock of feathers that called the Waitangi Tribunal.

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  56. Nostalgia-NZ (5,045 comments) says:

    Nookin (2,202) Says:
    October 25th, 2012 at 8:54 am
    tvb

    ‘I agree. O’Connor is a PR disaster for the police. He is a complete anachronism. Just last week he went on about the ritualistic humiliation of the police following the release of the auditor-general’s report on police culture and then proceeded to denigrate the office of the auditor-general.

    He has no sense of balance and is quite oblivious to public perceptions of the police.

    While he goes on about the need for creativity he simply doesn’t seem to understand that the courts have to be one step removed from the investigative and prosecutorial processes. How will anyone feel satisfied that they will get a fair trial if there is a perception that judges and police work hand in hand in detecting and prosecuting criminals.’

    I think he understands, simply doesn’t care. He can’t see the difference between planting evidence and perpetrating a fraud on the Court. The Minister does seem to be able to tell the difference between the Courts and police judging by her comments yesterday.

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  57. David Garrett (6,786 comments) says:

    RF: Are you sure Greg O’Connor is the brother of Damien? I know they are related, but I thought they were cousins…whatever his familial connections, he is well past his use by date as spokesman for the “on the beat” police person…

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  58. F E Smith (3,315 comments) says:

    he simply doesn’t seem to understand that the courts have to be one step removed from the investigative and prosecutorial processes

    Well said, but this applies not just to O’Connor, but also much of the population and, apparently, all of the politicians.  

    Courts are not in place to fight crime.  That is the job of the Police, working under laws laid down by Parliament.   That is why David Garrett’s Three Strikes law was the entirely appropriate way to address a perceived issue, rather than using a bully pulpit to get the Courts to do it. The Courts are and should remain independent adjudicators of cases brought by a plaintiff/prosecutor, end of story.

    The moment the Courts get involved in the investigative process, or in attempting to increase the number of defendants convicted, they lose legitimacy.

    That said, much as I disagree with O’Connor on what he says, I do believe that in the main he is communicating his members views accurately.

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  59. kowtow (7,955 comments) says:

    Pete George tries to imply that talk of civil war is wishful thinking on extreme blogs. Note the tar brush of extremism being bandied about.
    Civil war can be sparked by seemingly relatively trivial events but that masks what may be fundamental differences in society on which men are unwilling to compromise.
    War is extreme ,but as electorates become increasingly ignored and disenfranchised by political elites,there could well be a move to violence and civil war.
    I see the EU as a potential conflict zone where Federalists would be prepared to force settlements on unwilling populations. That is not far fetched.
    Mass immigration from Muslim countries, unemployment,drop in living standards,imposed legislation from the unpopular centre,increased taxation,a lack of true representation,regional seccesionist movements …….recipe for trouble.

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  60. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    DG

    And you do realize the Police Association is a union- so no real surprise that Greg is left leaning in his politics.

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  61. RF (1,346 comments) says:

    David Garrett

    Sorry I was wrong. My informant who should have known better was not correct. They are first cousins.

    I have been chewing the fat with former plods and they are real hot about the recent cases being thrown out. Its obvious that a “them and us” mentality prevails.

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  62. David Garrett (6,786 comments) says:

    PEB: Yes, of course….I just didn’t expect him to be so closed minded, and so disconnected (on that issue at least) from from the views of his members who are still on the beat. But then I didn’t know he was a hard leftie either. Trying to reason with them is like trying to train your cat.

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  63. Redbaiter (8,032 comments) says:

    Tom I am going to write a response to your comment but much later maybe even tomorrow.

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  64. Ed Snack (1,801 comments) says:

    FES, isn’t it true though in inquisitorial justice jurisdictions, the head investigator is in fact a member of the judiciary, and investigating magistrate ? That hasn’t caused a loss of legitimacy for them, however I do acknowledge that there are differences in the systems that make direct comparisons difficult.

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  65. b1gdaddynz (279 comments) says:

    While the SANZAR Judiciary got it badly wrong with it’s pathetic punishment for Scott Higginbotham it seems that he’ll be missing more than 2 games anyway having been left out of the Wallabies touring party; some justice afterall!

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  66. TheContrarian (1,082 comments) says:

    At least The Onion has it right:
    http://www.theonion.com/articles/trump-announces-hes-a-very-sad-man,30077/

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  67. F E Smith (3,315 comments) says:

    Ed Snack,

    it depends on the jurisdiction, but in those that have investigating magistrates it is generally just the more serious cases that are investigated by a judge. What happens, however, is that the investigating magistrate has nothing to do with the trial, nor is the Court misled in any way in order to further an investigation.

    I don’t think, however, that investigating magistrates run undercover cops, although I stand to be corrected on that.

    Don’t forget that in those jurisdictions the investigating magistrates are trained as judges straight out of law school, and get training in their job. Judges in NZ are not trained in conducting or assisting with investigations.

    RF,

    Its obvious that a “them and us” mentality prevails.

    That is a long-standing problem with the police.  

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  68. Tauhei Notts (1,651 comments) says:

    Tom Scott and his silly cartoon.
    Tom Scott bathes in a mikva once a month.

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  69. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    The socialists appeal to Dunne: http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8553824/dunne-urged-to-support-ets-amendment

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  70. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    feral scum..wonder which ethnicity..I can tell you, electric chair the bastards

    http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8553914/grey-power-disgusted-by-attack

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  71. b1gdaddynz (279 comments) says:

    Yeah that’s messed up! I don’t know what the world is coming that there are scum who will do that to the elderly; these are the people who have built this country and we owe them a lot better than this. I would love to be left alone in a room with one of these bastards…actually given how cowardly they are I reckon the pair of them wouldn’t be much trouble!

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  72. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    He must be related to Chrissy Carter: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/mrs-carrs-travels-cost-taxpayers-120000-20121025-287bs.html

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  73. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    There is little hope for charter schools if John Banks’s poor English whilst attempting to promote them is anything to go by.
    To the person who mentioned Benghazi……Go to the site , Winds of Jihad..Awhile ago there was an article there titled..”Benghazigate bigger than Watergate”…..There has probably been other articles since.

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  74. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Greg O’Connor is a great adovcate for the members of the Police Union. Top marks for that. It is his job and he does it well.

    He also needs to be put in his place. It is not appropriate for him to be commenting on cases, or demanding law changes, as he frequently does. It is even more appalling that politcians listen to the arrogant prick. His views about the law are irrelevant. He is there to deal with employment issues only.

    His rantings (invariably for more powers to the police and less rights to the public) about the law should not be listened to any more the president of the rubbish collectors union. In fact, I would prefer listening to rubbish collector over that jumped up authoritarian.

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  75. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    It’s not that often you see a game changer in military technology, but this could be one of those weapon systems: an EMP-burst generator packed into a cruise missile.

    http://www.boeing.com/Features/2012/10/bds_champ_10_22_12.html

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  76. RightNow (6,844 comments) says:

    Fun fact I learned today
    http://translate.google.com/#auto/it/evil

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  77. Andrei (2,532 comments) says:

    You say it maly with the accent on the first syllable RightNow – male = bad, gives us words like malevolent

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  78. b1gdaddynz (279 comments) says:

    From the Latin Malum = Evil

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  79. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    FES and others

    The Nelson gang case and Greg O’Connor

    The police acted with the Ok from the (at the time) Chief District Court Judge. It was not done off their own bat.

    All that happened was he used a good cover aid nothing more, I have seen nothing that would suggest he gathered any evidence against this group during the time he was in “faux” custody.

    But my questions are:

    Did the agent act illegally in his operational role in gathering the evidence against this group.

    Did his operator act illegally in his operation role in his handling of the evidence against this group.

    Did the agent act in an agent provocotour role against this group or did they just behave like fuck wits and let him gather evidence by their behaviour.

    If the answer is ‘no’ to any of those questions whats the problem?

    I am wondering how much this has to do with a High Court Judge sticking it to a District Court Judge (albeit the Chief one at the time) I do know that many High Court Judges view the District Court Judge as a vastly inferior species.

    and TVB at 8.27am

    You just have no fucking idea – also your description that a (Chief) District Court was some how influenced by the police to do thier bidding is so very very wrong .

    Kea (356) Says:

    October 25th, 2012 at 4:52 pm …He also needs to be put in his place. It is not appropriate for him to be commenting on cases, or demanding law changes, as he frequently does. It is even more appalling that politcians listen to the arrogant prick. …..

    I have not always liked some of the things he has said in the past myself, but of course he a right to speak for his members, the dick from the wharfies did nothing but comment on the law and get in politicians ears for months.

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  80. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Why continue with this expensive farce? National should abolish the tax altogether!
    http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8553551/maori-party-backs-off-ets-bill

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  81. slijmbal (1,224 comments) says:

    “Samsung was found to infringe an Apple patent that helps the touchscreen interpret whether the user wants, for example, to scroll up and down or switch between applications. It was also found to have infringed a patent that allows the device to show an image on a screen with a second, translucent image over it. ”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/gadgets/7862919/US-ITC-judge-finds-against-Samsung

    and this is what software patents are a problem – pretty much self evident functions and I saw the translucent image approach in publishing tools in the 90s and seem to remember Rank Xerox had something similar in their ill judged attempt at word processing even earlier. NeXtStep had something similar I think – maybe they patented it and as it was Job’s baby (NeXt that is) they took it in.

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  82. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    Speaking of evil, here’s an excellent series of articles and links on what Jimmy Savile did.

    An interesting comment I read today is that the global MSM are almost exculsively covering his focus on small girls, but ignore the other allegations that most of his offending involved boys. Did you know that? This link gives the evidence of that. And the comment was around, why have they done that? And the commenter was wondering aloud if this might be because their promotion of political correctness (aka to me and others as evil propaganda) via their obsessive avoidance of linking peodophiles with gays. I thought that was an interesting point, especially since hey, if it happened against boys in equal if not greater numbers, this also needs to be told. I thought that was what the media was about. But no. It’s a good point, isn’t it.

    You have to scroll past the first post, then it starts.

    http://therightofreply.blogspot.co.nz/2012/10/jersey-bloggers-vs-jersey-state-media_198.html

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  83. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    +

    http://jerseytoday.blogspot.co.nz/2012/10/public-and-private-personas.html

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  84. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    Oi ! Greedy mo/fo oil companies…dollars at almost .83 US up almost 2c in 2 days…why havent you dropped ya fuel prices ?

    Mongrels.

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  85. Fletch (6,151 comments) says:

    And in today’s news, David Letterman finally discovers that, gee, President Obama lies. But he shouldn’t do that, because he’s President. It’s the challenger who should be lying – duh

    DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST: Here’s what upset me last night, this playing fast and loose with facts. And the President Obama cites the op-ed piece that Romney wrote about Detroit, “Let them go bankrupt, let them go bankrupt,” and last night he brings it up again. “Oh, no, Governor, you said let them go bankrupt, blah blah blah, let them go bankrupt.” And Mitt said, “No, no, check the thing, check the thing, check the thing.”

    Now, I don’t care whether you’re Republican or Democrat, you want your president to be telling the truth; you want the contender to be lying. And so what we found out today or soon thereafter that, in fact, the President Obama was not telling the truth about what was excerpted from that op-ed piece. I felt discouraged.

    RACHEL MADDOW: Because the “Let Detroit go bankrupt” headline you feel like was inappropriate?

    LETTERMAN: Well, the fact the President is invoking it and swearing that he was right and that Romney was wrong and I thought, well, he’s the president of course he’s right. Well, it turned out no, he was taking liberties with that.

    Just say it: he was LYING. Welcome to the real world, Letterman.

    Video at the LINK

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  86. F E Smith (3,315 comments) says:

    The police acted with the Ok from the (at the time) Chief District Court Judge. It was not done off their own bat.

    Yep, no criticism of the cops on this one, the CDCJ has to be given the blame entirely.  There is no way that he should have agreed to this.

    Did the agent act illegally in his operational role in gathering the evidence against this group.

    No.

    Did his operator act illegally in his operation role in his handling of the evidence against this group.

    I wonder if it could be considered to be contempt of Court to mislead a judge, even with another judge’s permission?

    Did the agent act in an agent provocotour role against this group or did they just behave like fuck wits and let him gather evidence by their behaviour.

    I don’t know the answer to that.  Is there one in the public domain?

    I am wondering how much this has to do with a High Court Judge sticking it to a District Court Judge (albeit the Chief one at the time) I do know that many High Court Judges view the District Court Judge as a vastly inferior species.

    No, I think that Russell Johnson fundamentally breached the separation that we expect between the judiciary and the government, bringing the Court into disrepute by engaging in a deception that ultimately misled his own colleague and turned that particular court sitting into a farce.

    your description that a (Chief) District Court was some how influenced by the police to do thier bidding is so very very wrong .

    I think that statement is very true, but I don’t think that was the point tvb was making.

    I have not always liked some of the things he has said in the past myself, but of course he a right to speak for his members,

    Exactly.  Well said.

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  87. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    I have a feeling Putin will come to regret doing this to them. The Press won’t accept it if they die and their martyrdom will be elevated when they’re released.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/law-of-the-gulag-awaits-pussy-riot-women/story-fnb64oi6-1226501430909

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  88. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    FES why does a whole prosecution have to be vacated in matters like these? Why doesn’t the law use the proportional damage equation when the weight of evidence indicates an unjust outcome may arise by comparison to the veracity and significance of the, albeit illegally gathered, evidence?

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  89. Nostalgia-NZ (5,045 comments) says:

    F E Smith

    ‘Yep, no criticism of the cops on this one, the CDCJ has to be given the blame entirely. There is no way that he should have agreed to this.’

    That’s not what the judgement says. I haven’t read it but it sounds like Nookin has, this from one report -

    Justice France: “He also said a letter presented to the judge was ‘wholly inadequate to alert the Chief Judge to the realities of what was involved.” In fact it sounds the scope of what he agreed to as set out in the letter was far short of what police actually did. Justice France used the word fraud and I don’t know that he criticised Russell Johnson at all. It’s not lost on me that the police have chosen to blame a dead man for their activities yet the Court has rejected that.

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  90. chiz (1,131 comments) says:

    Fletch:Do you think it’s too big a leap from Obama helping out the Libyan rebels with air support to depose Gaddafi, to the Obama Administration supplying the same rebels with guns? Sounds like something he’d do. Only, these same rebels are affiliated with Al Qaeda. So Obama is really helping the enemies of the U.S.

    You’re confused, like the article you linked to. There are a number of groups among the rebels, some of them are islamists, some of them are pretending to be islamists solely to get money from the gulf states, some of them are not islamists, and some of them are strongly opposed to islamism. One of the reasons why the west has been reluctant to provide arms to the rebels is precisely because of the fact that some of them have ties to Al-Qaeda and that is isn’t easy to ensure that arms given to groups without such ties might nevertheless end up in Al-Qaeda hands anyway.

    In the event that there is any covert supply of arms to the rebels, by the west, you can be sure that they will doing their darndest to try and make sure that they are only going to people with no ties to Al-Qaeda. They do not want any more blowback, as with the libyan arms that ended up causing problems in Mali.

    The article you linked to, claimed that the US was supplying weapons to the rebels and then leaped to the conclusion that they were being given to Al-Qaeda without considering the possibility that they were being given to pro-western groups.

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  91. nasska (10,917 comments) says:

    Somehow I doubt that DPF would find his life partner here. :)

    Ref: http://imgur.com/gallery/0KFHD

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  92. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Nostalgia
    Yes and the police have paid the price.

    But “Fraud” even in its broadest sense would not seem to fit this incident, perhaps another word should have been choosen.

    And cheer leading for the police here, I do know that something similar was attempted for a friend in the early 80′s and the Justice Department knocked it back at that time, which was fair enough , he was tasked to get into a very dangerous scene, the plan would have made it safer for him if the DOJ had helped but he did the job anyway.

    And without advocating any breaking of the law or short cutting process by the police, civilians have no idea how sophisticated crime has become. All the TV shows in the world do not get it and will never be shown what is really happening. I got out 8 years ago and even in that time just something as simple as communications has just leap forward 100 fold. Encrypted radios used to cost thousands, now available at Dick Smith for $68.00.

    The police have to think outside the square, (they are way behind already) – they will loose some and they will win some but they have to keep trying. I am a believer in our Court system even though it knocks you back, its not perfect but its what we’ve got

    The cops lost this one, but never mind go again with an improved plan, the only people who will really suffer are the young people of Nelson who have this group amongst them- that have contacts to a sophisticated world wide criminal network.

    There can be all the waffle in the world about investigating judges and the like, but the reality is even in those jursidiction that use them the leg work is still done by plods or retired plods, so its just a case of same shit different face.

    they just have to go again with a new plan.

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  93. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    Perhaps he belongs to the Skull and Bones sect fraternity. Seriously, why would a whole country including the intelligentsia, allow successive generational leaders to slaughter said intelligentsia? How mind controlled as a country, would one have to be?

    http://www.ibtimes.com/north-korean-army-figure-executed-kim-jong-un-continues-bloody-purge-853153

    OTOH, how mind-controlled are we, that we cheer-lead at worse slaughter when it’s conducted in accordance with “our side’s interests?”

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  94. RF (1,346 comments) says:

    PEB. I note your 8 years of life after…… I have been clean for around 20 so have well and truly cut the cord. It was hard at first. Anyhow I agree with you 100%

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  95. nasska (10,917 comments) says:

    A man is driving down a deserted stretch of highway, when he notices a
    sign out of the corner of his eye. It says SISTERS OF MERCY HOUSE OF
    PROSTITUTION 10 MILES. He thinks it was just a figment of his
    imagination and drives on without a second thought. Soon, he sees
    another sign which says SISTERS OF MERCY HOUSE OF PROSTITUTION 5 MILES
    and realizes that these signs are for real. When he drives past a third
    sign saying SISTERS OF MERCY HOUSE OF PROSTITUTION NEXT RIGHT, his
    curiosity gets the best of him and he pulls into the drive.

    On the far side of the parking lot is a somber stone building with a
    small sign next to the door reading SISTERS OF MERCY. He climbs the
    steps and rings the bell. The door is answered by a nun in a long black
    habit who asks “What may we do for you, my son?” He answers “I saw your
    signs along the highway, and was interested in possibly doing business.”

    “Very well, my son. Please follow me.”

    He is led through many winding passages and is soon quite disoriented.
    The nun stops at a closed door, and tells the man “Please knock on this
    door.” He does as he is told and this door is answered by another nun in
    a long habit and holding a tin cup. This nun instructs “Please place $50
    in the cup, then go through the large wooden door at the end of this
    hallway.” He gets $50 out of his wallet and places it in the second
    nun’s cup. He trots eagerly down the hall and slips through the door,
    pulling it shut behind him. As the door locks behind him, he finds
    himself back in the parking lot, facing another small sign: GO IN PEACE,
    YOU HAVE JUST BEEN SCREWED BY THE SISTERS OF MERCY.

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  96. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    Confucius say. “A man who is only screwed by his wife is a much richer man!” nasska!! :)

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  97. nasska (10,917 comments) says:

    But he dies with a much lower tally JB. :)

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  98. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    Only if sheep are not counted! :)

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  99. nasska (10,917 comments) says:

    This could be a repeat. I can’t remember whether I’ve put it up before…..

    AUSSIE POETRY

    The sun was hot already – it was only 8 o’clock
    The cocky took off in his Ute, to go and check his stock.
    He drove around the paddocks checking wethers, ewes and lambs,
    The float valves in the water troughs, the windmills on the dams.

    He stopped and turned a windmill on to fill a water tank
    And saw a ewe down in the dam, a few yards from the bank.
    ‘Typical bloody sheep,’ he thought, ‘they’ve got no common sense,
    ‘They won’t go through a gateway but they’ll jump a bloody fence.’

    The ewe was stuck down in the mud, he knew without a doubt
    She’d stay there ’til she carked it if he didn’t get her out.
    But when he reached the water’s edge, the startled ewe broke free
    And in her haste to get away, began a swimming spree.

    He reckoned once her fleece was wet, the weight would drag her down
    If he didn’t rescue her, the stupid sod would drown.
    Her style was unimpressive, her survival chances slim
    He saw no other option, he would have to take a swim.

    He peeled his shirt and singlet off, his trousers, boots and socks
    And as he couldn’t stand wet clothes, he also shed his jocks.
    He jumped into the water and away that cocky swam
    He caught up with her, somewhere near the middle of the dam

    The ewe was quite evasive, she kept giving him the slip
    He tried to grab her sodden fleece but couldn’t get a grip.
    At last he got her to the bank and stopped to catch his breath
    She showed him little gratitude for saving her from death.

    She took off like a Bondi tram around the other side
    He swore next time he caught that ewe he’d hang her bloody hide.
    Then round and round the dam they ran, although he felt quite puffed
    He still thought he could run her down, she must be nearly stuffed.

    The local stock rep came along to pay a call that day.
    He knew this bloke was on his own, his wife had gone away.
    He didn’t really think he’d get fresh scones for morning tea
    But nor was he prepared for what he was about to see.

    He rubbed his eyes in disbelief at what came into view
    For running down the catchment came this frantic-looking ewe.
    And on her heels in hot pursuit and wearing not a stitch
    The farmer yelling wildly ‘Come back here, you lousy bitch!’

    The stock rep didn’t hang around, he took off in his car
    The cocky’s reputation has been damaged near and far
    So bear in mind the Work Safe rule when next you check your flocks
    Spot the hazard, Assess the risk, and always wear your Jocks!

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  100. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    No stinging nettle in Oz obviously! :)

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  101. Nostalgia-NZ (5,045 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay

    I’m taking some liberties with the details because I haven’t read the judgement, but the word fraud I assume was applied to the false search warrant signed by somebody in the police. Either that or it may have been for the advances taken by police beyond the letter they presented to Russell Johnson.

    Putting that aside, a significant blow was landed against the gang and it’s associates according to one of the defence lawyers. Some apparently have litigation ahead if they are to recover their positions before this happened. There were other elements of over stepping, claims that the agent was in danger of being outed and so on. This became too easy for police and the line of upholding the law became obscure.

    The Court was firm in it’s position. Maybe not a popular decision but very important nonetheless. As you say the police will continue on but will hopefully not use these tactics again or try to fudge the lines. I thought Peter Bouchier sp? made good points about this situation today as did Justice France when he said ‘police were playing fast and loose with the Courts.’ That protects the public. The gang may have got a brief respite but that is all. Few interested in the law will see that any apparent benefit to those that had charges dropped against doesn’t outweigh the public interest in seeing the maintenance and administration of the law upheld.

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  102. Griff (7,008 comments) says:

    Re post nasska but only those of us that contribute the’odd’ joke will recognise it

    Jb we in new Zealand a blessed with a surplus of nettles including one that can be fatal
    ongaonga/tree nettle botanical name, Urtica ferox, this killer plant is well-documented. Like all nettles, it is covered in stinging hairs that put poison into the skin of a person or animal that brushes against it.It often grows on farm land, having an affinity for sheep shit. :grin:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urtica_ferox

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  103. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Nostalgia agree with most of what you say, its Tony Bouchier

    The link below has just been put up on Stuff

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7863518/Police-review-after-undercover-embarrassment

    “Justice Simon France said police had committed a fraud on the court and acted disrespectfully towards judges. ”

    I interpret that as I commented above as a poor chose of word rather than an implication that the police had acted criminally

    “Justice France said they didn’t act in bad faith but their approach was inadequate.” –

    and there is no argument with that statement from the Judge, but that falls well short of what I’ve heard today as a ‘attack on the judicary by the coppers”.

    It was serious shit that young cop was into, all this was was an attempt to protect him – misguided perhaps but not sinister

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  104. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    Doesn’t explain how in a country that only has fuckin leeks as the national poison you can get sheep shagger’s galore though Griff? :)

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  105. Griff (7,008 comments) says:

    How do you think the leeks get that lovely white translucent sheen JB we bury them in sheep shit :wink:

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  106. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    And here was me thinking you wanked all over them! :)

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  107. Griff (7,008 comments) says:

    ehhmm no

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  108. nasska (10,917 comments) says:

    Did you know the Welsh have found a new use for sheep?

    Wool

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  109. Nostalgia-NZ (5,045 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay.

    I’m fine with that. I hadn’t read any reports that it was an attack on the judiciary which would be absolute nonsense suggestion. A taking of advantages? Yes.
    I accept without question that it’s perilous territory for the undercover as Bouchier, yourself and others know only too well.

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  110. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    A word to the wise.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__L7LjegqvA&feature=related

    Fools of course continue to tread where angels fear.

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  111. liarbors a joke (1,069 comments) says:

    give it a rest sharples

    http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8554096/teach-maori-history-in-schools-sharples

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  112. Yvette (2,745 comments) says:

    … and it is still not nine o’clock already

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  113. Yvette (2,745 comments) says:

    Oh … there we go

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  114. Griff (7,008 comments) says:

    The welsh and the kiwis and all along we have missed the real culprits
    http://www.sven-kommt.de/

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  115. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    Yvette is the new (self appointed) keeper of the Gun! :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_O%27Clock_Gun

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  116. Tauhei Notts (1,651 comments) says:

    Nasska at 8.01.
    I came on here because I have to do a speech on Sunday. Mixed company, but I was looking for a story to tell.
    Nasska’s stories are legendary and that one will be repeated on Sunday.
    Nasska; keep up the good work.
    Last time I quoted one of Nasska’s stories the only problem was the cleaners’ expenses.
    Too many people pissed themselves laughing.

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  117. calendar girl (1,203 comments) says:

    Joana @ 4:49pm – I wouldn’t normally care how you expressed one of your posts, as long as I understood its intended message and it wasn’t written in txt-speak. But in your criticism of charter schools above you chose to play the man rather than to debate the merits or otherwise of such schools, i.e. you limited yourself to vilifying promoter John Banks for his “poor English”.

    Please explain to us, therefore, your own miserable English grammar in the final sentence of your post: “There has probably been other articles since.”

    Here’s your idiom of the day (to be committed to memory, I suggest): “People who live in glass-houses shouldn’t throw stones.”

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  118. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    Ah JK is reversing Helen’s policies and allowing some useful Islamic refugees into NZ I see. :)

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7863429/Kiwi-homes-for-Afghan-interpreters

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  119. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    Co-leader Pita Sharples says one of the reasons Maori students don’t do well at school is that their culture isn’t acknowledged.

    http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8554096/teach-maori-history-in-schools-sharples

    His use of the word “culture” is a bit excessive. Way of life, maybe.

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  120. EverlastingFire (291 comments) says:

    JB – What skills do they have? Or should we lay down the red carpet to WINZ?

    Manolo – Somehow I think cannibalism, slavery and infanticide would be off the curriculum? :D

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  121. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    CG.
    Playing the ball not the man is a tedious cliche. You obviously don’t know the man or the nickname he is known by to all in the NZ Police but I love your commitment to your ideology.

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  122. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    A lesson for Double Dipton English? http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/gillard-was-a-disloyal-deputy-says-mckew-20121025-288bb.html

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  123. calendar girl (1,203 comments) says:

    Joana: Whether or not I knew the person’s nickname, I wouldn’t lower myself to attack his views on charter schools solely on the basis of his English skills. Especially if my own English grammar was as slap-dash as yours turned out to be in your comment of yesterday.

    But you appear to remain pig-headedly unrepentant about attacking the man rather than his views, so do enjoy your day with that kind of approach.

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