Rotary cancels on Ansell
October 6th, 2012 at 8:13 am by David FarrarStuff reports:
A Rotary Club has distanced themselves from a political activist who claimed the country was headed toward an “apartheid Aotearoa” by cancelling his speech.
John Ansell was set to give a speech at the Rotary Club of Remuera’s meeting on Monday as part of his Treatygate/Colourblind State campaign.
Ansell has claimed the Treaty of Waitangi was an exercise in “mass brainwashing with false history” by the successive New Zealand governments.
Ansell’s campaign was aimed at exposing the “Treatygate fraudsters and for the government to create a colourblind state”. …
Rotary Club of Remuera president John Burrows said the organisation was firmly “non-political” and media hype had seen the club “ambushed” into providing a platform for Ansell.
Ahead of Monday’s meeting, Burrows today said Ansell had “stepped over the mark” after issuing his own invitation to members of the public and promoting his talk at the club as a “state launch”.
“There is no way that the Rotary Club of Remuera endorses John Ansell’s views, or that it ever wanted to give him a platform to launch his political aspirations,” said Burrows.
“We might invite him to talk to us in the future. As business and thought leaders Rotarians like to be informed. But he will be just one of a variety of people, including politicians, which we invite to share their ideas.
Personally I don’t think an invitation to speak in an endorsement. No one things Orewa Rotary Club endorsed what all their speakers have said. If I was Re,uera Rotary Club I would have kept John on, and just invited Hone Harawira to be their next guest speaker – nice and balanced.
John has blogged:
Now I need to turn this setback into an opportunity.
Who among you knows of another venue where we could hold Monday evening’s meeting?
From the interest I’ve had, it would pay to err on the big side.
I’ll keep you informed if and when I find a new venue.
Since flights and accommodation are booked, I might as well head to Auckland tomorrow as planned, and return Tuesday.
Will it still happen? If it does, I suspect even greater media interest now.
October 6th, 2012 at 8:20 am
@ DPF – it might just be that Ansell hadn’t disclosed his full intentions to Remmers Rotary. Rotary meetings are not generally a forum for divisive political debate in public. The Club has every right to pull the rug out from under Ansell if he did not disclose to them that he was using their hospitality to launch a campaign.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:22 am
In the end this will probably help stoke Ansell’s fire but I’m not surprised Rotary Remuera pulled the plug on it, Rotary meetings are usually members only and John seemed to have taken it over as a fundraising promotional launch.
I think he overstepped. Now he can find a more appropriate launching pad, with accumulated publicity.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:23 am
Alternative venue? Do we still have telephone boxes in Auckland?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:26 am
Can you imagine the screams from the media if Rotary pulled the plug on a meeting being run by Hone and the rest of his racist gang?.
You might not agree with Ansell but he has a right to speak his mind, the insidious way that we are being told what is acceptable speech and what is not acceptable is something that we should all be worried about.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:31 am
As a former speaker co-ordinator for a Rotary Club I reserved the right to withdraw speaking invitations.
I am sure the Remuera Rotary club would not have appreciated having a meeting used for other purposes than Rotary activities so I am not surprised at their decision.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:31 am
For an organization that claims to be “non-political” they seem to be very accommodating of many other overtly political events (when it suits them).
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:32 am
Bruv, I thought about Hone but decided that Sue Bradford was enough for my club.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:33 am
Of course he has a right to speak his mind Bruv. But he does NOT have a right to invite the public to a campaign launch at a Rotary club’s meeting if he has not disclosed his intentions to the club. Rotary is apolitical as an organisation, and very seldom opens club meetings to the general public. Ansell seems to have over-played his hand here, and the issue is not one of freedom of speech; it is one of disrespect to his hosts by using their invitation to push his agenda.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:34 am
I recall John erred somewhat on the big side with his estimates of Act’s vote in the last election.
‘Interest’ does not necessarily equate to a willingness to attend.
John is trying to tap in to widespread disgruntlement with some Maori overreaching, but he risks being perceived as overreaching in the opposite direction, partly with the use of exaggerated terms like apartheid, and also with his association with what appear to be very fringe historians.
Credibility over pre-Maori history in New Zealand may be a make (solid evidence and support) or break (conspiracy nutters) part of getting popular support for this campaign.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:37 am
Well Alex, they invited him and invited him to ask guests as well. They must have known what John was about or they are living in the dark ages. One simple google would have found out if they didn’t already know. They should have made that decision before asking John.
Cowards is the right word.
Failure to fulfil an undertaking. I’m sure their will be enough lawyers in that club to understand a simple contract.
Well maybe not.
and KS, do you have a spine of anysort?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:39 am
Before you comment read what John has to say.
http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2012/10/06/remuera-rotary-symbol-of-cowardice/
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:43 am
Add this to your reading.
http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2012/10/05/remuera-rotary-cancels-meeting-and-misrepresents-me/
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:43 am
@ Viking2 – you do your case no good whatsoever when all you have is ad-homs; read this:
I am sure that the Rotary club I belong to would do exactly the same in the same circumstances, as would every Rotary, Lions, and Zonta club. Rotary is a club to which one is invited to speak; if Ansell has pushed the boat out too far, he has only himself to blame.
Vote:Maybe he should find a Grey Power venue.
October 6th, 2012 at 8:43 am
Or better still, have them both on the same ticket but can the talk and just have them mud-wrestle.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:45 am
V2,
I read it. It reminded me of a child throwing a tantrum because they didn’t get their way.
It actually reflects far more poorly on Ansell than on Remuera Rotary.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:49 am
KS go read about the shambles at thhis link. They knew or were like Key couldn’t rmember what happened a few days ago.
Itys becoming epidemic of the National Supporters and their leaders.
bhud. you must have read something different to me. John clearly states he asked for their reassurance that it was ok before he sent out the emails.
ttp://johnansell.wordpress.com/2012/10/05/remuera-rotary-cancels-meeting-and-misrepresents-me/
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:53 am
It sounds a bit like John had a sympathetic supporter withing Remuera Rotary who was going along with his launch plans, but when others in the club found out how far his self promotion was going they overrode the decision to have him speak. As is their right as a club.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:56 am
V2,
Well, let’s see…
How very adult of you John.
Ad hom. And offensive. Just because Rotary do not want to be linked to a political launch, does not make someone “opposed to his country.”
Ad hom again. Uncalled for and reeks of a child spitting the proverbial because they are not getting what they want.
Sorry, but his behaviour undermines the credibility of that statement.
If I were at all interested in hearing what a movement like Ansell’s had to say, I think I would want the spokesperson to grow up first.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:56 am
Seems that Burrows has been touched by a PC huruhuru.
Orewa has balls, Remuera has none
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:56 am
This hurts, considering I sought and received the club’s approval at every turn.
Just this Monday I asked the committee member who invited me, “Are you sure it’s OK with the club that I invite the media and public?”
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 9:01 am
Steve, you have that right.
KS. 21 years a Lion and we had all sorts of speakers and all sorts of late night dicussion about all sorts of topics.
also known as freedom of speech and opening minds to other idea’s.
Notional Party not known for that.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 9:07 am
John seems to be trying the name and shame game.
But he doesn’t name the one committee member who invited him and encouraged him and approved his campaign launch.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 9:23 am
Pete, just like your boss you are becoming a prostitute.
It was not a campaign lauch but an initation to speak to his views and what it was about.
The club knows the persons name and that’s for them. I wouldn’t for one second expect John to name that person, who represented the club without both that person and the club agreeing.
But then that’s principle which appears to be a anathema to people like you.
It would be normal I suggest that more than one person arranges and agree’s to guest speakers in a club. Well in my experience as a lion of 21 years that was always the case.
But I can’t vouch for other clubs.
Time some people grew up and widened their views of the world.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 9:27 am
Fuck! I already invited 4 people from South Auckland (close relatives of mine) to attend John Ansell’s talk (just to counter Grumoldhori’s big bro’s invitation to film the occasion at the remuera rotary club) so they can learn about facts to what property/individual rights are about. Its not about color of the skin. Its about the color of what the brain should think and that is, colorblind, which was John Ansell’s intended talk.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 9:34 am
V2: The club knows the persons name and that’s for them. I wouldn’t for one second expect John to name that person, who represented the club without both that person and the club agreeing.
So why did John name those from Rotary he disagreed with?
V2: It was not a campaign lauch but an initation to speak to his views and what it was about.
John’s announcement (email):
That sounds like a campaign launch to me.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 9:35 am
One of the main reasons for canning it is that they are businessmen. Let me think, upset iwi with their trillion dollar assets or upset John. No brainer when you run development companies already in negotiation with iwi for partnerships on tourist resorts with private beaches and revenue from under water mining.
This is why national has given away far more to iwi gentry than labour. Also why you get somewhat mixed messages out of act. Because the elites in those two parties see iwi as a way of privatising assets that it would otherwise ce political suicide to sell.
Wake up NZ
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 9:38 am
From the sounds of things, Ansell had informed them of his intentions entirely. Sure, they have the right to cancel meeting, but it seems pretty clear they’ve backpedaled knowing full well what Ansell was bringing. An agreement was in place. Cowardice – a good word to use for that kind of thing.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 9:47 am
Democracy has been dead in nz for decades. All these lion and rotary meetings to balance and widen views, radio talkback for decades, blogs where sad asses discuss issues and say what really worries them.
And for what? NOTHING. Because in all that time in not a single year would support for this tiriti bullshit ever have been near 50%!!!
But the governments went ahead anyway and gave away our money and assets.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 10:03 am
Now you see why national and labour are pro state ownership – he’s struggling to find a venue because the government owns them all. It’s not like the pond scum on the Auckland council are going to offer him a venue -they are,too busy paying millions of dollars to unelected “representatives” who would otherwise be on the dole.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 10:12 am
There’s absolutely no point holding it in Auckland.
NOBODY is going to want to be there, even if they privately agree with Ansell’s campaign (and there are a lot who do) because being at the event means possibly being photographed / filmed and then you’re marked as a racist. Jobs are too hard to come by. He’ll just end up looking tragic, and there goes your momentum.
Also one in three Aucklanders don’t have English as a first language. And a whole lot more are either Maori or have somebody with Maori descent in their immediate circle of family and friends. Or don’t give a shit because they are there to work and work only.
Ansell should circuit the provinces and play the small towns. Doesn’t have to be flash – turn up in the town square, give a speech, people will come because they can pretend they are ‘just shopping’. Will cost a bit but I reckon that’s where people will attend and become motivated. Good luck!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 10:18 am
duggledog …
marked as a racist.
Well, I would have loved it if the Mr Ansell’s talk went ahead, because I would have been there not as a racist fucker but a sensible property/individual rights advocate. AND I’m black. Racisit is a term used by white-guilt sympathizer fuckers.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 10:24 am
John Ansell’s campaign is called Colour Blind, and a government of that nature is his clear objective, but the depth of state sponsored brainwashing is so great in this country that he’s being called a racist.
So many brain dead losers infesting what was once such a great little country.
That’s what happens when you sacrifice education to indoctrination.
And National and Labour have both have condoned it.
I’m convinced that the drongo collectivists who represent about 75% of this country all share the same single brain cell.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 10:56 am
Pathetic standpoint of Rotary.
Vote:Representing the elderly they should consider that they have been fortunate to understand Free Speech,
but as a Branch of Winston’s Party you can understand their allegiance – not to open democracy.
Old Twerps
October 6th, 2012 at 11:00 am
I wouldn’t be surprised to see Colin Craig step in and help with a venue.
I also wouldn’t be surprised to learn that it was a National party-inspired manouver.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if whatever venue is found, it sells out and he has people standing in the aisles. I hope John can organise video screens for those unable to get through the doors.
There is in this country what marketers call latent demand on the issue Ansell advocates. Latent demand occurs when there is a product that people want but it never appears in marketing surveys or focus groups because people don’t know they want it. Flavoured vodka was one such product and this is why it simply rocketed with hardly any marketing at all when Vodka Citron first appeared on the shelves. This is another in the political field. It’s an idea whose time has come.
Of course the media will do what it usually does and pretend that any criticism of Te Tiriti is akin to racism of the worst kind. In John however they have someone who can completely undercut that message and reach completely over their heads directly to the hearts and minds of the majority of people who consider Maori have overplayed their hand and its time to reel back their excessive and apparently unlimited demands to something more reasonable and rational.
All the very best John, unfortunately I’m in Wgtn so won’t be there, but if you do something down here, I definitely will be.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 11:18 am
I would have been there – father of Maori children. What the iwi have done to this country does no-one any good. Well said Fala.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 11:20 am
Kevin said
You have evidence of that, of course Kevin?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 11:38 am
Oh KS, stop trying to defend the indefensible. Plenty of evidence around the country if you bother to look.
still you probably haven’t lived here long enough yet.
And in case you are wondering my family came here about the treaty time and then again in the 1850′s for the other side. Family buried oversea’s in Palestine (well was before this last war), and Military Cross and a VC included among the family.
Vote:Lots of others who fought and were involved in politics one way or another as well as business. so think I’m of suitable stock to talk about Kiwiland.
October 6th, 2012 at 11:50 am
Sensible decision from Rotary. Racism has no place in New Zealand.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 11:58 am
I agree, Hamnida. That’s what I’m trying to get rid of.
The point is, I checked with Remuera Rotary that it was OK for me to invite the public, and I was told YES.
Their reneging on that agreement has cost me $600. That is not an honest club.
And yes, if someone wants to set up a one-on-one with a Hone Harawira or a Willie Jackson, I’d be there with bells on.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 11:59 am
That why the racist separatist Maoris need to get the message.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 12:03 pm
Kevin – Maori not “Maoris”
John – I am sure Rotary will refund the money if they made a last minute decision to cut you as a speaker.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 12:05 pm
Tarawera is privatised. The only reason you think the national parks are still public is the taxes pay the rent.
How much rent to have the state highways going thru Maori land? Need someone who knows their way around corridors of power to get this info on an OIA.
As v2 said, get out a bit ks.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 12:06 pm
Personally I don’t think an invitation to speak in an endorsement. No one things Orewa Rotary Club endorsed what all their speakers have said. If I was Re,uera Rotary Club I would have kept John on, and just invited Hone Harawira to be their next guest speaker – nice and balanced.
I would not bother with either. Both are bigoted and divisive which is not a path to reaching a solution to anything
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 12:13 pm
Not that I think the meeting was going to be anything other than crap, interesting to note that there was a blog on the subject here yesterday, in which Griff is the first to post an obviously pre-written message. Over the following hours there is information surfacing about secret treaties, an earlier colonisation, exaggeration about how much has been paid out to settle claims. Stupidity or blind ignorance, rather than wait until the meeting the Ansell crew get their rocks off on here, spill the beans and the result is the cancellation?
Now the moans are that it wouldn’t have happened if it were Hone, yawn. Well maybe the cancellation wouldn’t have happened had not been so much premature ejaculation, a grand effort to let the cat out of the bag. Revelations that were apparently not consistent with the description of the meeting passed to the Rotary Club. Very amateurish, poorly conceived and built on sand. For my part I see someone (an opportunist) has attempted to attach some concern about settlements with the kernel of an idea that the basis of settlements is misguided based on some mystery ‘historical’ events – known only to an elite. Wow. Maybe there were some white stone age cavemen up north after all, recent behaviour around the traps indicates it perhaps wasn’t so far fetched. The errant genes might have survived in some form the later colonisation, tribal wars, and odd bit of cannibalism on the way to the fateful, and now cancelled meeting, in Remmers.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 12:21 pm
Rotary host speeches, not campaign launches. They said John may be welcome back if he wants to do a talk.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 12:22 pm
Yes we need a very professional anti tiriti lobby to carefully manage the campaign for our children’s sake. Iwi and the wealthy white elites are carving up nz between them.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 12:24 pm
Viking2 said
Born here in the 1950′s V2. My family traces its ancestry back to the boats from Nova Scotia to Waipu Cove in the 1850′s. Grandfather was a Gallipoli veteran, father fought in North Africa and Crete, brother fought in Vietnam. Stick your ad homs where the sun don’t shine
Seriously though, I’m surprised that Remuera Rotary Club gave Ansell a forum in the first place. I suspect that he might have said something like “Is it OK if I invite a few friends”, then nik minnit, it’s a political campaign launch. BTW, I had plenty of those late nights in my Round Table years, and whilst we solved the problems of the world over a few beers and a game of cards, politics was seldom discussed.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 12:28 pm
Falafula Fisi: dead right.
And there are lot of others like you (though I presume you’re not Maori, but maybe Samoan or Tongan) who just want to be treated as equal New Zealanders.
This is not about black, white, yellow or brown supremacy. People can practise their religions and follow their cultures to their heart’s content.
But no one else should be forced to pay them to do it.
We’re paying Maori to do it and where’s it getting us?
More to the point, where’s it getting them? The leaders get rich, and the bad stats remain as bad as ever.
We are supposed to live in a democracy. In a democracy majority rule is considered better than minority rule.
So we’re within our rights to dump the majority view on the minority for no other reason than that the majority have the numbers.
But I don’t want to do it just because the majority have the numbers. I want to argue a moral case for why the majority has been shafted by a sustained and grotesque distortion of our history.
That’s what Treatygate is about: the conning of a country by the political elite, the bureaucratic elite, the academic elite, the judicial elite, the legal elite, the media elite, the religious elite and, last but hardly least, the iwi elite.
Many people know it’s been happening for decades. Now it’s time to shine the spotlight on the depth of the fraud.
Next job is to provide a solution. How to get the Treatygaters’ hands off the levers of power.
I have some ideas and I hope to present them. I hope some courageous person will find me a venue in Auckland. Otherwise we’ll do it somewhere else. There’s interest in Tauranga.
Sooner or later, truth will out.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 12:40 pm
Need to do an advertising campaign that doesn’t criticise rank and file Maori – they are as shafted as anyone else because they are shamelessly used by elites prepared to lie about how badly off they are just for the sake of iwi power.
The only underprivileged that my Maori children have is having to pay for all this wow bullshit like everyone else. Otherwise they’re fine -not criminals, not “over represented ” in the statistics. Same for the vast amount of Maoris.
The iwi scam is to get them to identify as Maori when they do something bad and identify as white or NZer when they do something good.
It’s all a lie and a scam.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 12:43 pm
As it happens, I have spoken to the same Rotary Club (and quite a few others).
There are usually about 50 people, mainly elderly, and there is a dinner and then they do their club news and other business, and then a speaker and questions and then the fining ritual they do as a fundraiser.
As the speaker, you are their guest at their meeting. It is not your show. You are in their club house and follow their rules.
If you ask if you can bring a spouse or other outsiders, they will say yes. I am sure if you said one would me media that would be ok too.
But I think that is very different from what John has done, which was send out an email, talking about a campaign launch, to “a few hundred New Zealanders” and telling them “You’re invited, along with anyone you know who might be interested.”
On his blog, available to the whole world, he said: “You’re invited, and so are the media. In fact, feel free to bring everyone you’ve ever met.”
On the blog he also confirmed: “I just emailed the following to a few hundred great and potentially great New Zealanders. Please do the same if you can.”
Now perhaps is it true that he told the unnamed committee member that he was asking “the media and public” and that that person simply said “go for it” but I doubt even the committee member would have thought that meant he was going to email hundreds of people inviting them to a campaign launch, and telling them to invite everyone they’ve ever met.
That’s like a teenager being asked to a party, and saying “can I bring some mates” and then texting and facebooking the whole world saying that they and their friends are invited.
Unless John is a social cretin, which he is not, I very much doubt he thought he had mandate from the club to ask the whole word to their meeting.
In fact, he is a talented PR guy and more likely he engineered the situation to generate more publicity for his campaign and position himself as a victim of the elites.
Prattling on about an “agreement” further suggests it. You don’t make an “agreement” about who else will attend a Rotary Club meeting when you are invited. You are a guest and operate with courtesy and within the usual conventions of Rotary Club events.
So there is no free speech issue involved, nor cowardice.
A club of 50 or so people who get together once a month for fellowship, to report on club business, have dinner and listen to a speaker is perfectly entitled to feel ambushed by the situation and pull the plug. No one’s free speech is violated (John can hire a convention centre room at a hotel and ask whoever he likes) to listen to him.
And it’s a bit childish to say, as he seems to be saying, that “my right to free speech requires you to be forced to listen to me even if you don’t want me to speak to your club anymore because I asked all my mates too”.
I would be interested in who the unnamed committee member is too.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 12:50 pm
It is sickening to hear the smirks in the comments of those here today who are elated Ansells presentation has been canned. Even more sickening is, if you look through previous posts by these hypocritical people they actually feign encouragement of free speech and the need for “open debate” on a subject that is clearly polarising this country. You will note they are the first to shoot any attempt at down.
I personally feel Ansells views are extreme but do we have a voice anywhere, challenging the extreme problems we face, ie. those being enflamed by Iti and Hawarera? As a reminder – The former shot the NZ flag to show his “love” for the honkies and the latter called them “white motherfuckers”. Nothing happened to either of them. Both are gaining support and traction and money ( I believe act as the end game motivators for the maori party) and yet the majority sit silently unrepresented and disempowered. At least there is a petition to sign!!!
Are we sure we don’t actually need Ansell to start the debate – all be it, belatedly? Or are the real problems amongst us, the vocal minority, too scared of it?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 1:01 pm
wtfunz – John has done his pre-publicity stunt, now he gets to do all the free speeching he wants to organise for himself. Anyone who wants to is free to join the debate.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 1:06 pm
@wtfunz – read Mathew Hooten’s post above yours; he nails it.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 1:08 pm
Wtf I don’t know what they’re upset about – their side won years ago. All we can do is create a bit of “happy mischief”.
The MSM put a voluntary news blackout on the beaches and seabed referendum. They still got 300,000 votes. The only thing that gets the oil is the squeaky wheel in this country.
Everyone’s favourite born-again rightie turns up to defend the cowardly establishment. More politics of conformity. No need to bother, mate.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 1:14 pm
John Ansell…
(though I presume you’re not Maori, but maybe Samoan or Tongan)
John (or shall I say your translated Tongan name : Sione), I’m Tongan. Born & bred in Tonga. I just came here to NZ after my high-school education in Tonga (I went to Tonga College or ‘Atele) to continue on here at tertiary education. Now, Auckland is my home. I feel passionate about these discussions regarding poverty, education, property/individual-rights, etc, because I know exactly what they are (especially education/poverty) because I’ve seen it when I grew up in the village.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 1:25 pm
My wife meets many Pacific Islanders in her job and they are absolutely spewing about the Maori situation. Having to scrub hospital floors to pay taxes so the iwi elite can get fat is not a good look for a modern multicultural democracy.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 1:53 pm
Keeping Stock.
Yes I read Mathews post and it was 100% stop on. It always was a publiciity stunt and a conspiracy theorist could even suggest someone at the club was in on it. Certainly, Brash didn’t invite the world to his Orewa event!
My concern is that the smug comments being posted re its “failure” smacked of hypocrisy from those that ask for such debate to be started. In short they are generally just blowing smoke where only eels go these days.
My hope is that the likes of PG will actually start debating with some solutions or simply say they are happy with how things have transpired and will continue to pan out.
To be honest, it is already too late as much of the process is set in concrete. As a family we will be in Aussie in 4 years when our kids have graduated as a Doctor and an Engineer. We will have sold our business and several properties and contribute instead to a country actually going somewhere. This resolve will only increase more under a Gween/Maori/Liebor coalition in 18 mths. I’m only hoping something will change in the next couple of years as I quite like the country – its the management of it under MMP, a failed social welfare model and the treaty bullshit which has, and is, completely f*ckg it.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 1:57 pm
Ansell has been unfairly rotary hoed. He asked if he could email and for media to attend ???
Vote:That was the time for someone to say hang on I’ll just check with the committee and President/head honcho. Then they could of said members only. Not cancel Ansell.
October 6th, 2012 at 2:05 pm
Here you go John Ansell – perhaps you would like to respond directly on Kiwiblog?
I’m sure that there will be a lot of interest in your reply?
Kind regards,
Penny Bright.
________________________________________________________________________________________________
YET TO BE PUBLISHED COMMENT ON NBR REGARDING JOHN ANSELL’S PURPORTED SUPPORT FOR ‘ONE LAW FOR ALL’:
http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/ansell-details-colourblind-state-launch-ck-130190#comment-587615
If John Ansell so believes in ONE LAW FOR ALL – does he believe that John Banks and Don Brash should have equally been prosecuted for the strict liability offence (Securities Act s58 (3) ) of signing Huljich Kiwisaver Scheme registered prospectuses dated 22 August 2008 and 18 September 2009 which contained untrue statements?
(To see copies of the above-mentioned Huljich Kiwisaver Scheme registered prospectuses dated 22 August 2008 and 18 September 2009 – check out http://www.pennybright4epsom.org.nz )
Does John Ansell believe that ’3 strikes and out’ should equally apply to ‘white collar’ criminals?
If not – why not?
On 24 September 2012 – the Commerce Select Committee of the ‘Highest Court in the Land’ – effectively decided that ‘one law for all’ does not apply to former and current ACT Party Leaders – Don Brash and John Banks.
“The Commerce Committee has considered Petition 2011/5 of Penelope Mary Bright and 307 others, which requests “that the House conduct an urgent inquiry into the decisions regarding prosecutions relating to the Huljich Kiwisaver Scheme registered prospectuses dated 22 August 2008 and 18 September 2009”, and has no matters to bring to the attention of the House.”
http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/E9BE559F-179A-4AB6-878379ECF71C2387/241261/DBSCH_SCR_5602_Petition20115ofPenelopeMaryBrightan.pdf
Does John Ansell support John Banks effectively being politically protected – given that 5 out of 9 Commerce Select Committee members are National MPs?
http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/MPP/MPs/MPs/Default.htm?pf=CommitteeShortName&sf=Commerce&lgc=0
Commerce Member Bakshi, Kanwaljit Singh National Party, List
Commerce Member Borrows, Chester National Party, Whanganui
Commerce Deputy-Chairperson Cosgrove, Clayton Labour Party, List
Commerce Member Cunliffe, David Labour Party, New Lynn
Commerce Member Curran, Clare Labour Party, Dunedin South
Commerce Member Lotu-Iiga, Peseta Sam National Party, Maungakiekie
Commerce Member Mathers, Mojo Green Party, List
Commerce Member Mitchell, Mark National Party, Rodney
Commerce Chairperson Young, Jonathan National Party, New Plymouth
Does John Ansell support the House conducting an urgent inquiry into the decisions regarding prosecutions relating to the Huljich Kiwisaver Scheme registered prospectuses dated 22 August 2008 and 18 September 2009”?
If not – why not?
Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption campaigner’
http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Agree Falafulu Fisi
Ansell makes a principled stand against the never ending pillaging and plundering of the taxpayer and he gets dumped on by the gutless cheerleaders of a party that pretends to represent equality and removal of the Maori seats.
Good grief, how could anyone support such hopelessly unprincipled hollow men.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 2:12 pm
Hamnida – It is a bit petty. Maoris is pefectly acceptable,after all the early settlers wrote it that way,and just because a revisionist crossed out the s doesn’t make it absolute or right by putting it in an approved state funded dictionary. It’s like saying Funganui or as Turia with her silent wh says quite often Wanganui, as her upbringing and dialect allows,for she is one of “our” people. It’s inverse snobbery, NZ on Air plums in their mouths,the language must evolve to be acceptable even though the Min Of Ed says we must pronounce all the kiddies names correctly. I bet you can’t even pronounce the family name in Mt “Egmont”(alternative spelling)correctly?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 2:16 pm
Hooton as usual is spouting rubbish and continuing the cowardice. He wants the name to name and shame the Remmers people who were involved in the original invitation and acceptance of the engagement warts and all.
The Remmers Rotary Club had a person in charge and the email required an answer with $30.00 for a booking for dinner. Hardly a free for all but a paid for seat in the house. Proceeds perhaps to the Remmer rortists and the caterer.
Happen to have one in case you are wondering how I know. Clearly you are peaved because you didn’t get asked. (like so many others.)
If you think I will tell you who it is think again.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 2:22 pm
Keeping Stock (8,180) Says:
October 6th, 2012 at 12:24 pm
Seriously though, I’m surprised that Remuera Rotary Club gave Ansell a forum in the first place. I suspect that he might have said something like “Is it OK if I invite a few friends”, then nik minnit, it’s a political campaign launch. BTW, I had plenty of those late nights in my Round Table years, and whilst we solved the problems of the world over a few beers and a game of cards, politics was seldom discussed.
—
That gap in your education has caught up with you then.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 2:25 pm
Ah here you are Hooton. Wrong as it turns out.
John Ansell (839) Says:
October 6th, 2012 at 11:58 am
I agree, Hamnida. That’s what I’m trying to get rid of.
The point is, I checked with Remuera Rotary that it was OK for me to invite the public, and I was told YES.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 2:45 pm
…
There is nothing principled about Ansell’s stand, kev. Quite the contrary. It’s dog whistle racism at its most rabid. If his so-called campaign wasn’t intended as such, then he would not have invoked skin colour as the headline slogan of his campaign.
At its most base, the campaign and this thread simply illustrates how the impulses of colonialism remain alive and well in the world today – of course, exhibit No. 1 being Israel, whose human rights abuses also attract fanatical support from the same quarters.
These neo-imperialists want to build on the successes of past imperial ventures and reinforce the position of the colonised at the bottom of society’s food chain. However, the good news is that although vocal, they are very much in a minority in a civil society that does wish to address past injustices, however inadequately.
For the probably the best example of the staying power of prejudice and oppression, we only need to look at the US elections and the attacks on Elizabeth Warren, standing for Senate in Massachusetts, over her recounting of family folklore that she has Native American blood. Her opponent bases his attacks on similar grounds to that often seen in these parts – that she doesn’t “look” Native American and that affirmative action programs are also grounds on which to attack people, even when in this case the accusation is false. And Columbus arrived in 1492!
So I’m afraid it looks as though Maori can look forward to many more centuries of racism yet, as John Ansell eloquently demonstrates.
Falafulu Fisi, I’m no psychologist, but your stand is entirely predictable according to what I have read. As a member of another race that suffered and suffers at the hands of Europeans, it’s standard behavior for you to side with the oppressors, so lifting your status by being able to point to a sector even lower than you in the pecking order. It’s sad to see, but true, and it’s by no means unique to New Zealand.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 3:11 pm
Luc. you dribble shit.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 3:17 pm
Falafulu Fisi I do enjoy the hypocrisy of visitors to NZ, as a visitor to NZ it is none of your damn business.
Tell me who paid for your education in NZ, did you pay full international rates ? or did the NZ tax payer have to put their hand in their pocket to fund it ?
We owe Tonga what ?, did you take part in the riot in Tonga ?.
In other words best if you keep your yap shut and go along to church like a good little Tongan, a book of fairy tales to hand.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 3:19 pm
That’s pretty self-righteous Luc but no surprise there, is it. After all, disagree with a lefty and their monstrous arrogance comes to the fore believing as you do that you always have the best interests of people at heart and therefore anyone who disagrees HAS to be a hard-hearted villain.
Unlike lefties Luc I personally make my decisions with my head not my heart and the reason for my 11:00 above is because my head tells me Ansell has a point. I use the same head to make my decisions on Israel, since you raise it and no doubt you’ve seen at least several of my hundreds of posts here excoriating that govt for the many execrable things they do.
It would behoove you and your ilk to consider that just perhaps the people who agree with John just maybe think that those Maori involved in Te Tiriti industry have been rorting our generosity and therefore its time and way past time in fact, to call it like it is. Of course that means that those same Te Tiriti people will scream racism like stuck pigs but just because they do that doesn’t make it so, does it. No. They would say that, wouldn’t they.
Of course its politically convenient for you and your ilk to jump on their bandwagon and pretend the Te Tiriti people have a point, but if you really do have a head and thought about it for a second, you’d recognise the folly in so doing. Not that that will stop you and your ilk, will it. Which just demonstrates the moral depravity you and your ilk exercise all the time, which you attempt to disguise as a moral conviction. You wouldn’t know a moral conviction if it leapt up and hit you between the eyes.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 3:25 pm
grumpyoldhori seems to be trying to claim Maori credit for everything:
Education is as much a ‘visitor to NZ’ as Falafulu Fisi. As is the tax system that pays for education. As are many of the people that pay those taxes.
Maye all of us ‘visitors to NZ’ should put in a claim to Maori for education, and taxes that provide them with a heap of stuff they didn’t have before.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 3:27 pm
No doubt grumpy you are a rough caste like so many of your bro’s.
Hardly in a position to claim any more than most even if you kid yourself you are pure breed.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 3:29 pm
Good point Pete. Perhaps we should add the account for education to the list of Maori assets.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 3:37 pm
From John Ansell “People can practise their religions and follow their cultures to their heart’s content.
But no one else should be forced to pay them to do it.”
Last I looked my taxes were paying for several cultural institutions promoting European culture, for judges salaries as they administered a legal system based on British traditions, for MPs and bureaucrats entrenched in a government system based on Britain’s, for the teaching of the English language and English history in schools, among many other things. Some of these I’m tolerably happy about, some less so.
Presumably all this will be scrapped if the ‘colourblind’ campaign gets its way? Or is, as it appears, this ‘colourblindness’ simply aimed at everything Maori?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 3:53 pm
Pete George care to tell me why we should pay for educating VISITORS to NZ.
Vote:Why do we allow Tongans with sod all education into NZ ?
October 6th, 2012 at 3:55 pm
Remember when Ansell boasted of having held Brash’s hand when he “commented” here at Kiwiblog? Start of the slippery slope. If the poor old duffer hadn’t fallen under the spell of the toxic dwarf of NZ politics he’d be all teed up for a consolatory knighthood now, instead of wasting away on political skid row.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 4:05 pm
Reid – well said. I can just see Luc and PennynotsoBrights off spring carrying on the indocrination. Ugggglyyy!!!
PG – nice call.
Fella fulla – Hear what you are saying but not sure I am clear on your position. Quick couple of questions :-
Do you support the past and future Treaty settlements to Maori?
What is you view re current “water claims”?
grumpioldhori – keep throwing those stones and reinforcing those stereotypes you stoneager!!!!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 4:20 pm
Nostalgia NZ
“For my part I see someone (an opportunist) has attempted to attach some concern about settlements with the kernel of an idea that the basis of settlements is misguided based on some mystery ‘historical’ events – known only to an elite.”
Vote:….
Yes claiming Europeans might have been here first is only going to get yourself shot down. Let’s forget about that however and think about the appeal to justice that sees people with Maori ancestry as shareholders in tribal groupings with rights to NZ’s physical resources, over and above later arrivals, and under a “bicultural” umbrella where one culture is part of a closed society which the other culture (it is claimed) is contracted to respect. Let’s think about the resources (paid for by taxpayers) that work against the interests of the non Maori population, such as: Maori studies departments, Te Puni kokeri etc. There is nothing (official) to counter these institutions which promote Maori as having status and property right to the commons above all others.
October 6th, 2012 at 4:28 pm
“that sees people with Maori ancestry as shareholders in tribal groupings with rights to NZ’s physical resources over and above later arrivals”
That’s what’s known as ‘ownership’ or perhaps in this case better understood as “ownership of the means of production”. I’m quite happy to see this principle overturned in favour of socialism, if that’s what you are advocating.
“There is nothing (official) to counter these institutions which promote Maori as having status and property right to the commons above all others.”
Apart from a little-known official institution known as “the governmennt” which, for example, sucessfully opposed Maori rights to the seabed and foreshore a few years back.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 4:28 pm
I looked at Muriel Newman’s first petition and couldn’t sign it even though I donated to the coastal coalition. The reason is we think “people will see my name”. And who will see it? : neighbours who are Maori (as in have a bit of Maori blood but still could be called Maori). You can’t openly discuss Maori issues as so many people have Maori blood. But these are not the same people who are forming this bridgehead.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 4:34 pm
@ Luc Hansen
Do you call for the abolition of the Maori Party? Forget “dog whistle racism”. That is simply a racist party by definition. Which is fine, it’s a free country. But you need to be consistent or you look like a hypocrite or a fool.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 4:54 pm
“Why do we allow Tongans with sod all education into NZ ?”
Same reason we never exterminated Murri Grumpy.
Us Pakeha are prepared to tolerate all ethnicity’s, even if they are a pain in the butt!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 5:09 pm
Like liebour needs poor thick uneducated people as vote fodder so do iwi need poor Maori as treaty fodder.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 5:16 pm
Pete George Hey I have no problem with WELL EDUCATED Tongans and Samoans coming to NZ under the same criteria as any other person.
Vote:But, do we need those whose dream is to work as a cleaner in NZ ?
October 6th, 2012 at 5:18 pm
hj
‘Yes claiming Europeans might have been here first is only going to get yourself shot down. Let’s forget about that…’
Sure. But that is only part of it because for me, I see other repeats from some here that rely on such things as ‘Hone is a racist,’ ‘my wife told me all the islanders are sick of working in hospitals to pay for elite Maori.’ Unfortunately even leaving out the clanger, a lot of stuff repeats and shows the attack is against a particular race. As I pointed out earlier, the enthusiasm from some of his supporters let a big cat out of the bag, ill disciplined rubbish surfacing from anger.
Even the apparently ‘clever’ Maori and European ‘elite’ creaming it on settlements while looking to ‘broaden’ the attack still finds it necessary to name the old enemy. I’m all for having understanding and debate on this issue, in fact it would be very good. However, if I went to a public meeting hating say John Ansell, and really being unwilling to listen to him and looking to have proved my views of him then I think that would be the same as what John was trying to engineer – others to endorse his views, even to the point of, futile as it would be, trying to turn poor Maori against their ‘rich’ masters. So it’s a trick or a con, one that John doesn’t seem to understand alienates others from his message – because his message isn’t clear, probably even to him. In this case coming, across as a gathering of ‘good’ ideas, targeting ‘issues’ that he believes will give him a base of support. Leaving a question as to what is motivating him, one answer is clear – that which he displayed yesterday. Is there anything more? Doesn’t look like it.
Then another question is the argument worth debate with him, is he pragmatic, open to others views, the truth? And again the answers lie in the repeated amount of the claimed treaty settlements paid to date etc as to where his foundation argument lies. Accepting the first colonisation ‘issue’ is put aside, what about the others, they remain a problem. What about the identity of his support, none of it seems particularly reasoned and much of it seems angry. Big turn-offs. People are looking for more honesty not less, more unity, not division.
A final point. So the Rotarians tuned him down. The result, they get attacked all day on here. Not one individual able to be conciliatory about it. No one able to say, well yes we got that wrong. Such concessions and common sense would be what broadened interest, not lectures of the real ‘truth’ and who are gutless cowards.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 5:19 pm
hj come on tell us your name and address, it will go no further, honest
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 5:22 pm
I vote that we ban all coconuts who are dumber than grump’s people from jumping on the NZ waka.
What say you all?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 5:24 pm
Pete George showing his true colours.
Maori voluntarily signed a treaty with the British crown while, in their understanding, retaining autonomy within a framework of British rule. This model is used elsewhere now but it was pioneering stuff in those days. Some may interpret that as well-meaning, but in fact it was always to clear the path for eventual conquest by stealth. It’s also fair to say that Europeans have benefited many thousands times over from our exploitation of these fair isles compared with the de-development Maori suffered under British rule.
It’s no contest Pete.
Now head off to your local for Sat drinks with your fellow racists, there’s a good boy.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 5:31 pm
Bugger off Luc. Queen Vic, just having got the hot’s for Albert, thought she should stop letting chaps like the Duke of Wellington getting off on slaughtering the wogs.
The Murri were just the lucky recipients of her first attempt at largesse. Normally they would have been exterminated.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 5:33 pm
GoHori give your name and address i have some friends who would like to give you a little talk
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 5:33 pm
hj come on tell us your name and address, it will go no further, honest
Vote:…..
I looked at Muriel Newman’s first petition and couldn’t sign it even though I donated to the coastal coalition. The reason is we think “people will see my name”. And who will see it? : neighbours who are Maori (as in have a bit of Maori blood but still could be called Maori). You can’t openly discuss Maori issues as so many people have Maori blood. But these are not the same people who are forming this bridgehead.
…
what I’m saying there grumpy in case you miss conscrewed is that the Maori we react to (the narcissistic maori nationalists) are not the same people we work with, have as neighbours etc (although one or two are). It isn’t that I am afraid of the nationalists (as I am more inclined to piss them off) but it is so as not to offend the others.
October 6th, 2012 at 5:36 pm
If the ToW hadn’t been signed would Maori benefeited any more or less?
I understand that there are past wrongs that should be righted, like land confiscations.
But the ToW didn’t promise mixed race Maoris of today everything as they want/demand it, with all the advantages of origianl ownership plus all ther accrued advantages of introduced knowledge, technology and people.
I think most Maori understand this reality. Some seem to think past wrongs somewho make them deserve the best of everything today. That’s what I think needs to be challenged strongly.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 5:37 pm
I’m more worried about offending the big, tatooed, blackarses that drive cars without any respect to the laws regarding motor vehicle transport.
I have taken recently to only orally abusing Orientals unless I am carrying!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 5:39 pm
And you are just the man to do it PG!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 5:43 pm
@ Luc Hansen,
Are you going to address my question? Do you support the Maori Party – a party based on ethnic advocacy – and by your standards racist?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 5:50 pm
JB, still pondering how best to go about it. I think Dunne gets it, to an extent at least:
But more reasoned and balanced race relations needs to be drive by a much wider population, and not just by one side.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 5:53 pm
Sorry Bob R
You got lost in the dross.
I voted for the Maori Party. As far as I am aware anyone can join the party, so it’s not racist. It’s fair to say it is a special interest party, with a focus on Maori issues, but that’s not unusual in politics, is it?
Would you support a Xtian party?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 5:55 pm
Start by saying most of us have had a fuckin gutsful of the devious darkies trying to claim some sort of advantage over every other bloody bugger that bloody works for a bloody living in NZ and you can hardly go wrong PG!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 5:57 pm
And even more of us have had a shit load of diarrhea causing turds like Luc!!!!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 5:59 pm
Luc Hansen
Maori voluntarily signed a treaty with the British crown while, in their understanding, retaining autonomy within a framework of British rule.
………
Maori had no idea of the number of people arriving so whatever Maori agreed to didn’t relate to the reality as early as 1850 their was parity between the races. The treaty didn’t relate to reality
======================
“This model is used elsewhere now but it was pioneering stuff in those days.”
………
Sorry Dr Who in those days their wasn’t even a telegraphic service and it took (at least) 6 months to get a reply to a letter.
=============================
Vote:Some may interpret that as well-meaning, but in fact it was always to clear the path for eventual conquest by *stealth*.
…………….
that is pure hater and wrecker spin. There isn’t one person in control here. Ships were already on the water (a private company). The treaty was the idea of well meaning humanitarians, Captain Hobson didn’t want to organise the signing of a treaty, he was probably sensible enough to know you don’t make treaties until there is some balance of power.
=====================
It’s also fair to say that Europeans have benefited many thousands times over from our exploitation of these fair isles compared with the de-development Maori suffered under British rule.
……….
more hater and wrecker spin.
The Maori didn’t make these islands, nature did and it was the fact that Europeans brought agriculture and agricultural species that they “benefited many thousands of times over”. Also the fact that we brought a legal system and the whole lot more that our open society has to offer.
As for “our exploitation” Maori were responsible for the fastest mass exploitation of a megafauna in human history and the burning off of vast tracts of forest.
October 6th, 2012 at 6:00 pm
I think the starting point has to be a democracy with equal rights – no one should have a deciding vote ot veto power over a majority.
Co-management of public amentities is fine, minority control is not acceptable. Valid property ownership is fine, ownership of natural resources like water and wind is not acceptable.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:00 pm
“You can’t openly discuss Maori issues as so many people have Maori blood. ”
Why can’t you. I do just like I do with matters homosexual. If people not not like my view I do not loss to much sleep over it. I wonder how many we would have on this blog if people had to use their full real name.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:03 pm
You would lose all the fascinating folks like me and end up with all the boring, one track, turds like you Chuck!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:03 pm
Luc Hansen:
compared with the de-development Maori suffered under British rule.
…….
1832 – Earle, A. A Narrative of a Nine Months’ Residence in New Zealand, in 1827[Pages 101-150]
On entering a village, a stranger instantly discovers which portion of its inhabitants are the slaves, though both the complexion and the dresses of all are alike. The free Zealander is a joyous, good-humoured looking man, full of laughter and vivacity, and is chattering incessantly; but the slaves have invariably a squalid dejected look; they are never seen to smile, and appear literally half starved. The beauties characteristic of a New Zealander are his teeth and hair: the latter,
Vote:in particular, is his pride and study; but the slaves have their heads half shorn. The male slave is not allowed to marry; and any intercourse with a female, if discovered, is generally punished by death. Never was there a body of men so completely cut off from all society as these poor slaves; they never can count, with certainty, on a single moment of life, as the savage caprice of their master may instantly deprive them of it. If, by chance, a slave should belong to a kind and good master, an accident happening to him, or any of his family, will probably prove equally fatal to the slave, as some are generally sacrificed on the death of a chief.
Thus these poor slaves are deprived of every hope and stimulus by which all other classes and individuals are animated; no good conduct of theirs towards their master, no attachment to his person or family, no fidelity or long service can ensure kind treatment. If the slave effect his escape to his own part of the country, he is there treated with contempt; and when he dies (if a natural death), his body is dragged to the outside of the village, there to be made sport of by the children, or to furnish food for the dogs! but more frequently his fate is to receive a fatal blow in a fit of passion, and then be devoured by his brutal master! Even the female slaves who, if pretty, are frequently taken as wives by their conquerors, have not a much greater chance of happiness, all being dependent upon the caprice of their owners.
http://www.enzb.auckland.ac.nz/document?wid=300&page=0&action=null
October 6th, 2012 at 6:03 pm
<blockquote,Some seem to think past wrongs somewho make them deserve the best of everything today
This is a completely straw man argument. You are projecting white, racist, thinking onto Maori.
Hypotheticals like “if the treaty hadn’t been signed” are intellectual exercises with curiosity value, only.
For example,if a treaty was not agreed to, would the British have invaded in an attempt to conquer militarily?
And how Maori would have developed in that eventuality is pure guesswork, but your implication is that those dummies would have wallowed in underdevelopment, despite the fact that early Maori actually proved themselves to be deft entrepreneurs.
But Pete, you obviously have a very clear concept of inherent European cultural superiority – if that’s not racism, I don’t know what is.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:05 pm
“no one should have a deciding vote ot veto power over a majority. ”
Unless they are MPs including list MPs right?
UF does nor support democracy any more than any liberal party.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:07 pm
hj
Plato considered slavery a sign of an advanced civilisation. Europeans grew rich on the back of slavery. It is contradictory to claim Maori were backward for employing the very same practices as us culturally superior Europeans, isn’t it? If that’s what your are implying, that is.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:07 pm
Lucy, repeat with me: “Yes, European culture is far superior to primitive Maori culture.”
Vote:Go away and write it 1,000 times.
October 6th, 2012 at 6:08 pm
“<blockquote,"
You pushed the wrong button again fucwit Lucwit!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:09 pm
“I wonder how many we would have on this blog if people had to use their full real name.”
Well, there’d be me. Not sure why so many here have such an issue with putting their names to what they say.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:10 pm
Some of us have a job Sam!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:11 pm
***I voted for the Maori Party. As far as I am aware anyone can join the party, so it’s not racist. It’s fair to say it is a special interest party, with a focus on Maori issues, but that’s not unusual in politics, is it?***
@ Luc Hansen,
See I would say it’s a special interest ethnic advocacy party. I can’t see how you can criticise Ansell for being “racist” whatever that means, when you support an openly ethnic party. I realise anyone can join it, but that doesn’t change its clearly racial agenda. I’m not saying that is wrong, it makes sense if there is a niche for that. I just don’t see that it’s consistent to criticise Ansell?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:18 pm
Only really weird folk would join a racist party that is not aligned to their race.
We must assume that Luc is a chap of darker hue pretending to be white or conversely that Luc is really weird.
I have an opinion on which option I would go for!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:20 pm
Luc Hansen (4,053) Says:
I voted for the Maori Party.
….
ah so you are one of that small percentage, including Scott Hamilton and other racial masochists.
A couple of Maori fellows I know both voted for Winston. They accept colonisation by Europeans as past tense but now see a second wave under way (having watched the changes over the last twenty years).
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:22 pm
Give me a break JB. The four year old was tugging at my elbow demanding a snack!
Oh, and English and Irish descent, old chap. No darker hues in sight.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:24 pm
C’mon, Lucy. Are you a devout Muslim too?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:25 pm
Sam Buchanan:
” Not sure why so many here have such an issue with putting their names to what they say.”
Vote:……..
I’ve had a funny phone call or two as the left-wingers in the Green Party know who i am.
October 6th, 2012 at 6:26 pm
This is a completely straw man argument. You are projecting white, racist, thinking onto Maori.
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt.
No Luc. Maori are projecting their racist thinking onto white weak and mealy-minded liberals such as you who can’t tell the difference between a vested-interested argument with no real foundation, and genuine wacism.
Der.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:28 pm
Grumphori…
Falafulu Fisi I do enjoy the hypocrisy of visitors to NZ, as a visitor to NZ it is none of your damn business
Grump, it is my damn business. NZ is not yours. NZ is/was never owned by Maoris (in a common law sense). So, property rights was a concept alien to Maoris (before Europeans arrived here) as Mr Cresswell described in his article.
PS: I came here on a scholarship, so NZ taxpayers didn’t spend a cent on me, in my education.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:30 pm
Bob R
The problem with your view is that if you were correct, no indigenous people anywhere would have the right to redress for past injustices.
In the case of Maori, they were not conquered by military might but by false promises. To band together to fight for redress is not racist. It’s what we all do. And better a political party than a Band of Brothers, don’t you think?
What you guys need to do is leave aside racial slurs and argue from first principles, whatever that would be in the case of your argument – and I think I have defined that as the continuation of colonisation and oppression.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:32 pm
maori party is not racist it focuses on policy to benifit one race
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:33 pm
This is bullshit Luc. Feminists try and tell me I can’t possible comment on feminist (or masculinist) issues becasue I’m a white male. Maori try and tell me I can’t talk about Maori issues becasue I’m a white male.
I have as much say as anyone on whatever I choose to talk about. And issues pushed by some Maori are as important to me as to them, like equal rights in democracy, right to global resources like water and air etc.
Calling me a rascist to try and diss my legitimacy to speak about things that matter to me is an attempt at racial censorship. It won’t work.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:37 pm
Falafulu Fisi
What you are missing in your questionable analysis is that in the treaty, the British conceded ownership to Maori.
And the grievance is that the British then used all sorts of tactics from outright slaughter to legal trickery to confiscation by force to nullify the ownership previously conceded.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:41 pm
Cunning bastards those poms eh Lucwit!
As a fellow of Oirish heritage you should appreciate their devious nature!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:41 pm
Pete, I’m not trying to censor you (as if I could). It’s far more fun watching you dig such a hole for yourself! Your straw man arguments are as common as they are invalid.
I answered your points in a considered manner and diagnosed your bias. I’ve seen nothing in your blurt above to change my mind.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:43 pm
I do, JB, I do.
I’ve had a tricky road to navigate in life. Half of me hates the poms and half of me is a bloody pom!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:43 pm
Luc Hansen – aka Hori Harawira – The truth will out.
You are living proof hooch will eventually rot the brain – yours has gone.
What does the Maori party (a separatist race based party) set up to benefit and advance the cause of only one group, offer you what liebour or even the gweens doesn’t? Please explain. Is it possible you are a huge TOW trough feeder and it pays crazy money whilst having a laugh at all the tax payers of this country.
You might want to have another shot of P and get a bit closer to the monsters and demons our lastest maori recruit to the police force is so familiar with – hey, he’s seen them himself.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:44 pm
grumpyoldhori (2,298) Says:
October 6th, 2012 at 3:53 pm
Pete George care to tell me why we should pay for educating VISITORS to NZ.
Why do we allow Tongans with sod all education into NZ ?
The reason grumpy is that they tend to be better citizens and work a fucking sight harder than many of your dumb arse give me cousies. Those useless cozzies get benefits and then don’t pay their rent cause they drink too much of the white mans firewater and smoke too much of the green stuff. Just look at Northland.
But unfortunately we pay the entitled ones to suck oxygen.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:45 pm
modern translation and white guilt may say that luc but having read extensively of the times i would totally disagree with your myopic and propaganda fulled view of maori and history from 1800 to 1860
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:46 pm
Soigned a bloody treaty and then applied the laws of the indigenous folks to rip them off eh?
Then created a creep like David Lange to re-litigate the rules instead of exterminating the problem.
Devious bastards them Pom’s eh?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:55 pm
Griff, it’s all in the framing. My own government admits to the acts I’ve described in nearly every settlement agreement. If you call that propaganda, so be it.
And my concern with the treatment of Maori extends to the present day. I can well remember the blatant racism I grew up with in the days when it was just normal.
Talking of framing, what wfunz needs to do is consider the meaning of autonomy and see that it entails empowerment, not separatism.
There is a big difference.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:56 pm
Yes, right again JB.
Half of me wants to be the clever and devious pom and the other half wants to shoot the bastard!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 6:58 pm
What bastard Luc?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:00 pm
None of us have ever suggested suicide to you even if you are a bastard.
Phil or Penny. Now they are another matter!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:08 pm
Wait until the lop-sided Committee on the Constitution dumps their load
That will be power to Ansell’s elbow
[Don't do it Luc – Hone hasn't]
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:10 pm
sucks trying to comment from a cell phone so luc is a multi race person explains his confusion
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:13 pm
Are multi-race people those spotty folk that acne cures are aimed to Griff?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:15 pm
Most of us are of course regular pink or regular brown so we have no need of Oxy-plus etc.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:17 pm
‘only orally abusing Orientals’
Johnboy do you do that only on the front seat or on the side of the road as well, and what do you if they enjoy it to the point of distraction. Have you noticed more semi naked Asians driving recklessly on the farm? You know, with their pants down and well…excited and up for it.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:17 pm
It will be interesting Yvette if they snif the wind blowing they may try to promote harmony but i doubt it It will come out as 15% having more than half the power proberlably as a upper house elected by iwi
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:22 pm
I am brown as a.nut in my puplic bits JB just a whitey were only the gf sees does that make me a browny in puplic and a honky in bed
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:22 pm
“and what do you if they enjoy it”
I tell them that their Yen/Yuan is ten thousand to our dollar.
Amazing how many pay up!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:24 pm
Luc – try harder.
http://www.treatyofwaitangi.net.nz/
Article the First
The Chiefs of the Confederation of the United Tribes of New Zealand and the separate and independent Chiefs who have not become members of the Confederation cede to Her Majesty the Queen of England absolutely and without reservation all the rights and powers of Sovereignty which the said Confederation or Individual Chiefs respectively exercise or possess, or may be supposed to exercise or to possess over their respective Territories as the sole Sovereigns thereof.
The First Article and most important reads ; “cede to Her Majesty absolutety and without reservation all the rights and powers of Sovereignty”.
Crystal clear intent in written English in terms understood by the crown. You can argue maoris weren’t conquered but that is bullshit – stones, bones and wooden spears v’s muskets and steel – keep arguing that one!
Lets also remember, when honkies invaded, maoris were illiterate, had no instruments for recording, no written language (probably no wheels) – a maori version is an irrelevance. Where did maori have their land transfer office again? oh yes, the cooking pot!!!
sov·er·eign·ty/ˈsäv(ə)rəntē/Noun:
1.Supreme power or authority.
2.The authority of a state to govern itself or another state.
This article alone gave supreme power over the whole of NZ to the state. This was the key. Was it a cunning way to get ownsership of NZ – probably. But it was done – get over it. Just as some say maoris could have been wiped out in a better world – they’re nearly over that point also. – Woulda, coulda, shoulda.
You and your elk choose to use the vagaries of several versions of the treaty (making it more of a nonsense) to your own means. Namely those that benefit one race at the expense of the rest thus punishing todays generations for past, purported wrong doings. You then wonder why the resentment continues to grow.
The 21st century is beckoning Luc – do you think you can drag yourself into it?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:25 pm
“I am brown as a.nut in my puplic bits JB just a whitey were only the gf sees does that make me a browny in puplic and a honky in bed”
I think you have invented not only a new dialect but a new alphabet as well Griff!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:27 pm
Wrong version, wfunz.
International law says we follow the Maori language version.
Bad luck, chum.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:31 pm
‘Amazing how many pay up! ‘
Nothing like free enterprise when accompanied with inventive exchange rates Johnboy.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:31 pm
blame it on a flagon of feijoa cider fruity and weird with alcohol
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:35 pm
I’ll stick with Gin and IT then Griff!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:36 pm
actualy wrong luc international law says if the two partys are in dispute as to the meaning its null
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:37 pm
And there-in you summarize perfectly the bullshit we have today. The illiterates version counts — WTF.
The Maori party = autonomy.
The Honky Party = racists joining hands.
You are an excellent spinner of bullshit, I’ll give you that.
Yes you are full of it Luc but the sleeping majority has allowed itself to be royally shafted by the Grievers and it will go on forever. I have to take my hat off to you gravey trainers though, you may have lost the battle but you are winning the war.
Vote:Amazing what McDonalds and complacency has done to hard working Kiwis – too fat and lazy to fight!!!
October 6th, 2012 at 7:39 pm
“Amazing what McDonalds and complacency has done to hard working Kiwis – too fat and lazy to fight!!!”
I thought Macca’s were caterers to the other side wtfunz?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 7:52 pm
Just some questions on the revisionist’s arguments.
Why did the Crown threaten to take Maori land of those that didn’t cede to them if it was already the property of the Crown?
Besides the endless examples of claims and settlements over such lands, these were examples before even 30 years had passed of the Crown’s real intentions and willingness to break the treaty once confident of the military power to do so.
I know in international wars land of the defeated has often been carved up, in NZ however the consequences of war were the same when the Government was at war with some of it’s own people. The argument goes as to why should later generations have to pay for the ‘mistakes’ of their forefathers, that can be looked at another way, why should later generations pay for the consequences of their forefathers being dispossessed of their land, fishing, forests?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:08 pm
Nostalgia and Griff:
Sorry guys, you can’t just invent ‘facts’ to suit your ideology.
I said above that the treaty explicitly conceded ownership if lands, forests and fisheries to Maori, in the Maori version. And Tuhoe never even signed the treaty so that discussion doesn’t alloy to them.
Unlike Australia, Canada and the US, we are (grudgingly, one step at a time) taking a more enlightened approach to the problem of how to deal with past injustices to our indigenous peoples.
That’s the nub of the matter, Ansell’s angst notwithstanding.
And the tactics of diminishing their claims of first settlement etc etc – so reminiscent of Israeli attacks on Palestinians – is just a capillary of racism.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:14 pm
Luc is perfectly right chaps. Treaties are sacrosanct. Just like the treaty of Brest-Litovsk for example!
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:16 pm
What facts have I invented Luc Hansen?
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 8:25 pm
pete george
This is bullshit Luc. Feminists try and tell me I can’t possible comment on feminist (or masculinist) issues becasue I’m a white male. Maori try and tell me I can’t talk about Maori issues becasue I’m a white male.
I have as much say as anyone on whatever I choose to talk about. And issues pushed by some Maori are as important to me as to them, like equal rights in democracy, right to global resources like water and air etc.
Calling me a rascist to try and diss my legitimacy to speak about things that matter to me is an attempt at racial censorship. It won’t work.
Vote:——————
The nearest to getting angry I have ever seen Pete. Well done Petre no you need a bit more fire in ya belly.
October 6th, 2012 at 8:28 pm
Luc Hansen:
Vote:past injustices to our indigenous peoples
…..
where membership of that group is a matter of (choice=) “cultural identity” and the injustices are a matter of “in the past my iwi controlled area A and the land and resources in area A are worth a hellofalot (divide by my share) = my grievance.
October 6th, 2012 at 8:39 pm
Luc already more than 30000 kiwis have signed the declaration of equality that is more than hone or uf got in the last election and when the racist constitutional review comes out far more will sign. Democracy is wonderful the needs and wants of the majority will rule and the greedy iwi elite will be told were to stick the whole treaty industry. Go read the Vienna convention on international treatys we can legally tell maori to stick the moari and English version were the sun don’t shine as its void if the two party’s don’t agree on the content . The law you quote does not apply to a date prior to English deceleration of sovereignty in july 1841
you Maori version is the true one is just more spin from the treatyist . possession by conquest if you dont like it fuck of to hawiki or suffer maori type justice
Vote:http://www.nzcpr.com/petition_EqualRights.php
October 6th, 2012 at 8:42 pm
Luc Hansen:
Hypotheticals like “if the treaty hadn’t been signed” are intellectual exercises with curiosity value, only.
For example,if a treaty was not agreed to, would the British have invaded in an attempt to conquer militarily?
Vote:……………..
Maori weren’t united. Chances are they would have sold off bits, the South Island would have boomed when gold was discovered and with wool production. People would have flooded in. Each group of Maori would likely have made their own choices. It is likely that at some time in some place there would have been war but not against a united nation of Maori determined to keep the Europeans out, although that is a favourite argument of Luc types.
October 6th, 2012 at 8:53 pm
Here’s a quote from Bullshit, Backlash, and Bleeding Hearts. By David Slack:
“Time for some expert help here. The first lecturer I had at law school who taught our class anything Treaty-related was Alex Frame. [ ….]
Vote:People sometimes ask me, ‘How do I see the Treaty. How should we think of the Treaty?’ I’ve always said that the first article of the Treaty – the kawanatanga part – is very strong – much stronger than some Maori are prepared to concede, and the second article, which guarantees rangatiratanga is also very strong – much stronger than many Pakeha are prepared to concede. So how can we have these two strong articles sitting there? I’m tempted sometimes by this idea. In a way both sides gambled. The Crown gambled. Why was it prepared to sign up to Article II? Well, in a sense the Crown gambled that there would be assimilation. And therefore if there was assimilation, as you will see. Article II would become increasingly unimportant. On the other hand, Maori gambled. After all, why did Maori sign up for Article I – and by the way, don’t go for these readings that say Article I was only giving the Queen power over Pakeha. The most elementary reading of the Maori version of the first article shows that that is completely untenable. It gives the Queen te Kawanatanga katoa – all – of the kawanatanga; o ratou wenua – of their lands. Now, which lands is that? That’s the lands of the chiefs. That’s all it can be -have a look at the structure and I challenge anyone to show me an even faintly tenable reading which can dispute that it’s all the territory of New Zealand.
So why did Maori sign up to that? Well, I think they gambled. I think they gambled that things wouldn’t stay the same as they were in 1840, but would stay approximately such that there would be a preponderance of Maori and that the newcomers would be relatively few. I know there is a reference in the preamble to others coming, but I think the gamble was that if the demographics stayed favourable to Maori then this kawanatanga thing would be a really abstract sort of notion in the background.
October 6th, 2012 at 10:24 pm
Falafulu Fisi Not a lawyer are you, read the first part of the treaty which states we will keep etc etc etc, sorry dear boy but by common law we did own NZ.
Vote:Come on a scholarship did you, who paid for the scholarship ?, the NZ taxpayer ?
So now you have an arts degree why are you not proudly going back to save Tonga from the Tongans ?
October 6th, 2012 at 10:42 pm
Youre a crap representative of Maori hori. He’s a physicist.
How many full and final settlements have there been again? By taxpayers who never had anything to do with the supposed injustices in the first place. But Maori still want to suck the nanny states tit with eeeeoooo affirmative action and many other race based advantages.
Get my Maori children started on the neo tribal treaty scam and they make griff and hj look like bleeding heart liberals.
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 11:03 pm
“Some of us have a job Sam!
”
I had one when I left the office on Friday – do you know something I don’t? Should I stay in bed on Monday?:)
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 11:24 pm
grumpyoldhori- You are to be congratulated my friend. I used to think Philu was the most idiotic tosser I had ever seen on Kiwiblog but your comments on this thread have eclipsed even the stoned one!
Vote:You seriously think threatening to ‘send some bros round’ to Ansells speech is going to intimidate anyone? That is honestly the most childish and pathetic thing I have ever read…
October 6th, 2012 at 11:48 pm
Did you not see my questions John Ansell?
They’re fairly straightforward?
If you, John Ansell so believe in ONE LAW FOR ALL – do you believe that John Banks and Don Brash should have equally been prosecuted for the strict liability offence (Securities Act s58 (3) ) of signing Huljich Kiwisaver Scheme registered prospectuses dated 22 August 2008 and 18 September 2009 which contained untrue statements?
(To see copies of the above-mentioned Huljich Kiwisaver Scheme registered prospectuses dated 22 August 2008 and 18 September 2009 – check out http://www.pennybright4epsom.org.nz )
Do you, John Ansell, believe that ’3 strikes and out’ should equally apply to ‘white collar’ criminals?
If not – why not?
On 24 September 2012 – the Commerce Select Committee of the ‘Highest Court in the Land’ – effectively decided that ‘one law for all’ does not apply to former and current ACT Party Leaders – Don Brash and John Banks.
“The Commerce Committee has considered Petition 2011/5 of Penelope Mary Bright and 307 others, which requests “that the House conduct an urgent inquiry into the decisions regarding prosecutions relating to the Huljich Kiwisaver Scheme registered prospectuses dated 22 August 2008 and 18 September 2009”, and has no matters to bring to the attention of the House.”
http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/E9BE559F-179A-4AB6-878379ECF71C2387/241261/DBSCH_SCR_5602_Petition20115ofPenelopeMaryBrightan.pdf
Do you, John Ansell, support John Banks effectively being politically protected – given that 5 out of 9 Commerce Select Committee members are National MPs?
http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/MPP/MPs/MPs/Default.htm?pf=CommitteeShortName&sf=Commerce&lgc=0
Commerce Member Bakshi, Kanwaljit Singh National Party, List
Commerce Member Borrows, Chester National Party, Whanganui
Commerce Deputy-Chairperson Cosgrove, Clayton Labour Party, List
Commerce Member Cunliffe, David Labour Party, New Lynn
Commerce Member Curran, Clare Labour Party, Dunedin South
Commerce Member Lotu-Iiga, Peseta Sam National Party, Maungakiekie
Commerce Member Mathers, Mojo Green Party, List
Commerce Member Mitchell, Mark National Party, Rodney
Commerce Chairperson Young, Jonathan National Party, New Plymouth
Do you, John Ansell, support the House conducting an urgent inquiry into the decisions regarding prosecutions relating to the Huljich Kiwisaver Scheme registered prospectuses dated 22 August 2008 and 18 September 2009”?
If not – why not?
Penny Bright
‘Anti-corruption campaigner’
http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com
Vote:October 6th, 2012 at 11:55 pm
What an interesting thread.
Lots of fun had by all.
The highlight for me was ol’ Pete George getting on his high horse and complaining about being taken at his word i.e. that he is as racist as his leader, the sanctimonious prat that is Peter Dunne. It’s a soft racism, to be sure, designed to be as inoffensive as possible to as many as possible, designed to appear to be reasonable, even, but with the same intent, at the end of the day, as the John Ansell’s of this world.
And an honorable mention to poor Griff who, amongst others, invents a parallel universe that ignores minor inconveniences such as the fact that the treaty is now well and truly enshrined in our law as will, one day, be the Universal Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
And a passing reference to hj and the David Slack quote: I’ve seen that before and I would say that first, it’s not for us now to second guess motives as a means of interpreting the treaty, we just have to read it for what it says, and second, that Slack’s quote is very conveniently self serving for the colonisers. It’s what we did after the treaty that gave rise to todays grievances and that’s what remains to be redressed.
And I’m sorry guys, it’s just not as simple as saying 10 Our Fathers and 5 Hail Marys.
Vote:October 7th, 2012 at 12:05 am
You’re very tolerant DPF
Vote:October 7th, 2012 at 1:39 am
I am sorry the tangawhenua are not indigenous.
Vote:October 7th, 2012 at 6:40 am
More bullshit Luc. Abuse and accusations like ‘soft racism’ are a weasely attempt to try and shame people to shut up in subservience. Get stuffed with your racial correctness.
It is not being racist to speak up for your own rights and speak against the excesses of others.
As much as Maori have a right to seek redress for past wrongs, all of us have a right to speak against current wrong headed attempts at rorting and overreaching.
Vote:October 7th, 2012 at 10:42 am
Luc Hansen never came back to tell me what ‘facts’ I invented according to his post at 8.08pm Saturday.
Vote:I don’t disagree with all the points you make Luc but you seem to dazzle yourself into redundancy.
October 7th, 2012 at 11:14 am
And a passing reference to hj and the David Slack quote: I’ve seen that before and I would say that first, it’s not for us now to second guess motives as a means of interpreting the treaty, we just have to read it for what it says, and second, that Slack’s quote is very conveniently self serving for the colonisers. It’s what we did after the treaty that gave rise to todays grievances and that’s what remains to be redressed.
……
Law lecturer Alex Frame:
and by the way, don’t go for these readings that say Article I was only giving the Queen power over Pakeha. The most elementary reading of the Maori version of the first article shows that that is completely untenable. It gives the Queen te Kawanatanga katoa – all – of the kawanatanga; o ratou wenua – of their lands. Now, which lands is that? That’s the lands of the chiefs. That’s all it can be -have a look at the structure and I challenge anyone to show me an even faintly tenable reading which can dispute that it’s all the territory of New Zealand.
#3 Green Party list Kevin ($133,000 p.a ) Hague
Te Tiriti o Waitangi and the Green Party
“Let us be clear that the meaning of the Treaty must be determined from the Maori text. Those writers of angry letters to the editor who cite the plain cession of sovereignty of the English text and declare “game over” in fact ignore the law, which makes it the responsibility of the party offering a contract to ensure that the party accepting it fully understands it. If disputes arise, interpretations of the contract are to be made according to the understanding of the accepting party rather than the party that drew up the contract.
This means that the Maori text of the Treaty, and the explanations of the meaning of the Treaty given to Maori before signing, determine the Treaty’s meaning, and the English text is essentially irrelevant. At the heart of this deal, the “tino Rangatiratanga” of Maori would be respected by the British Crown and Maori would have all the right of British subjects, in return for a cession of “kawanatanga”. Kawanatanga was a made up word, based on “kawana” (for Governor). Maori were familiar with this new word because it was the Maori word that had been coined to describe the role of Pontius Pilate in the translation of the Bible. Explanations given to Maori at the time of signing emphasised the role of this kawanatanga in curbing the excesses of Pakeha settlers and protecting Maori. In contrast the Biblical use of Rangatiratanga had been to describe the Kingdom of God.
It is plain that sovereignty was not ceded by the Treaty, but rather Pakeha were given a basis for establishing government (of Pakeha). No wonder the historical record is of Maori disillusionment and anger since.”
This article was printed in Te Awa, the Magazine of the Green Party of Aotearoa.
Vote:October 7th, 2012 at 11:21 am
Luc Hone Hansen – you are a top of the tree whinging “griever”! You have only one card to play that of – ” oh you racist (bitch slap, bitch slap) you nasty racist you”!
Get a new line. The majority of contributors here are sick of the TOW gravy train and question its foundations via an ambiguous document which has attracted modern scammers like bees to honey. They question the ethics of those advocating for more of the same and the value, not only in what the citizens of this country get out of these sickening “settlements”, but to the tribal members supposedly wronged. These are the members who get and see nothing from this black comedy but often sit with their hand out wanting more.
Your response to this is to label everyone a racist because they challenge your propanda – a common reponse from any communist or racist – perhaps you are are both. I have no doubt you find away to defend animals like Iti and Hone to the end.
I am as critical of the TOW process as I am of the muppet Len Brown. One of the most conniving socialists this city has ever seen and fresh out of Hulun Clarkes “school for income redistribution”. Maybe that makes me a Brownist in your slanted little head.
Luc -You are a sad little gravey trainer who needs to look at what this process is doing to the country rather than his own self serving needs.
Vote:October 8th, 2012 at 9:25 am
wtfunz (110) Says:
October 6th, 2012 at 7:24 pm
Luc – try harder.
http://www.treatyofwaitangi.net.nz/
Article the First
The Chiefs of the Confederation of the United Tribes of New Zealand and the separate and independent Chiefs who have not become members of the Confederation cede to Her Majesty the Queen of England absolutely and without reservation all the rights and powers of Sovereignty which the said Confederation or Individual Chiefs respectively exercise or possess, or may be supposed to exercise or to possess over their respective Territories as the sole Sovereigns thereof.
The First Article and most important reads ; “cede to Her Majesty absolutety and without reservation all the rights and powers of Sovereignty”.
You do understand WTFUNZ, that Tiriti is in Maori, thats the one signed by the Crown and Maori – you did know that didnt you – and the translation text (your english version) is translated incorrectly – you knew that too?
You understand the term contra proferentem – in relation to the signing of Treaty dont you WTFUNZ – this will help
The contra proferentem rule that in the event of ambiguity such a
provision should be construed against the party which drafted or
proposed that provision (in this case the Crown) applies;
(f) The United States Supreme Court “indulgent rule” that treaties with
indigenous people (American Indians) should be construed “in the
sense which they would naturally be understood by Indians” supports
the principle (d) above;
Are you getting it now – read it slowly , it may help !
Vote:October 8th, 2012 at 2:32 pm
John Ansell could name his political party the Riff Raff Party because that is where his support comes from. He could also combine with those other losers Act and the Conservatives, they deserve each other.
Vote:October 8th, 2012 at 2:50 pm
A few little facts
Vote:1 No Sovereignty then maori do not come under English law international law takes precedence.
2 The crown did not provide the translation. More maori could have disagreed with the translation than the crown representative who did not speak maori.why did they not? hint because they wanted England to take over after 40 years of genocide.
3 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969 whichs is the correct law for treaty’s between Sovereign entity’s says if the two partys do not agree on translation then the treaty is void. So the treaty is worthless.
4 No treaty the declaration of Sovereignty by the English crown July 1840 becomes the founding document.
October 8th, 2012 at 3:28 pm
@ Griff – 1 – wrong
Vote:2 Tiriti was read in maori signed by maori. Taken round the country to Maori for further signing. Why would Maori complain about the Maori version of the Tiriti which is what they signed.
3 Treaty Law advises that if the Treaty is written for indigenous then the contra preferentem rule comes into play,
4 No treaty – then Im sorry, ownership reverts back to maori
October 11th, 2012 at 8:14 am
http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2012/10/08/my-evidence-that-remuera-rotary-misrepresented-me/
Vote:October 11th, 2012 at 8:21 am
anakereiti
According to Colenso who was at the siging both the english draft written by Busby (found in Pukekohe 1989) that the treaty (i.e. Te Tiriti O Waitangi) in Maori was translated from were presented to the chiefs present at Waitangi so they could be confident both said the same thing. Yes, they were that bright contrary to popular belief. And guess what the two documents do say the same thing – check them out. I assume you can read Maori?
Vote:October 11th, 2012 at 8:30 am
anakereiti
Vote:No such clause in the Vienna convention on international treaty’s http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/1_1_1969.pdf
Maori have a long history of signing things then ignoring them including land sales and treaty’s this is no different.
Maori sold the land or lost it to superior force under Maori custom pre treaty that is it, no claim unless you are stronger. Guess what you are not under democracy