University funding

November 20th, 2012 at 2:00 pm by David Farrar

Simon Collins in NZ Herald reports:

Tertiary Education Minister told a Herald series on job/skill mismatches, which began yesterday, that he would direct the university to take more engineering and science students if it did not do so voluntarily in response to funding changes.

This year’s Budget lifted funding for engineering by $42 million, or 8.8 per cent, and for science by $17 million (2 per cent), while funding for all other subjects was frozen.

But Auckland vice-chancellor Stuart McCutcheon told the Herald that the increases were paid as a bulk fund and the university did not have to put it all into engineering and science.

Ummm. Do I have this right? The Government gives some extra money for engineering and science (because we have skill shortages in those areas) and the university thinks it can just take the money, and spend it on the Arts Faculty???

A Pacific community leader has warned of a “Pasifika uprising” if the Government goes through with a threat to force Auckland University to take more engineering students, which may cause redundancies in other faculties.

Rev Uesifili UNasa, the university’s chaplain and head of Auckland Council’s Pacific Peoples Advisory Panel, said the move threatened Pacific participation in the university, which was concentrated in faculties such as arts and education.

“I’m very disturbed by the threat from minister Joyce. I can see a Pasifika uprising on this threat,” he said.

Wouldn’t the better thing be to encourage more Pacific students into science and egineering?

Another Pacific leader at the university, Dr Airini, head of the School of Critical Studies in Education, said more Pacific students needed to be recruited into engineering and science. “Mr Joyce is right. We do need to see that profile of Pasifika people in engineering. We also need to see that profile in education. It’s not an either/or, it’s a both/and,” she said.

“This is actually about New Zealand’s workforce development. We need to see a Pasifika presence in all of these areas because Pasifika are actually a big part of our younger population that will be essential for driving ahead NZ Inc’s future.”

A much more sensible view.

Tags: ,

58 Responses to “University funding”

  1. Brad (75 comments) says:

    Many science and engineering graduates just go to Australia, so fat lot of good some extra money will do to that skills shortage (except for improving Australia’s science and engineering sectors)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. annie (537 comments) says:

    Leaving aside the Reverend’s rather unsavoury threat, the fact is that most Maori, Pacific and low-achieving pakeha fail in primary and high schools, and this is where the funding needs to be put to help them into relatively lucrative occupations. If you can’t read, aren’t numerate and can’t write an essay, you’re already stuffed by the time you hit university. So I think we can assume this funding isn’t targeted specifically at Maori and Pacific students, but to the student body as a whole.

    Engineering and science though, really? Don’t we have an oversupply of engineers already? And I am certainly aware that there’s no money in a science career in NZ. You’d usually earn more doing a bog standard BCom and managing science graduates.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. Doug (405 comments) says:

    Rev Uesifili UNasa is just pushing his barrow, dose he Tithe the Students the more educated it would be harder to extort money.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. Graeme Edgeler (3,262 comments) says:

    Ummm. Do I have this right? The Government gives Auckland University some extra money for engineering and science (because we have skill shortages in those areas) and the university thinks it can just take the money, and spend it on the Arts Faculty???

    According to McCutcheon, you don’t have it right.

    He says the university receives a bulk grant, and that this money is not tied to a particular area. Do you now oppose bulk funding?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. rolla_fxgt (311 comments) says:

    I think it was they paid it the wrong way, ie it came in along with their normal funding, vs being a different coded payment.

    Still think all uni’s should be funded this way. By all means allow them to offer whatever they want, but only fund so many places in the required courses, and students have to pay full price for those courses not funded. Of course allow them to get a student loan for it, but then its the students issue, and they can face lifes consequences of it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. wreck1080 (3,722 comments) says:

    I’ve observed over my IT career that while there are a few pacific island IT workers out there, there are hardly any maori.

    Actually, I’ve never ever worked with a maori in my entire career. But, there are good opportunities in IT and it is not too difficult so what gives?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Steven Joyce is clearly in the wrong job. He is gunning to be the next Vice Chancellor of Auckland Uni. Out of interest, I wonder how Joyce would feel if the current VC told Joyce that asset sales were a stupid policy. Better that the VC stick to what he knows. Joyce should try it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. scrubone (3,044 comments) says:

    I wonder how Joyce would feel if the current VC told Joyce that asset sales were a stupid policy.

    Vindicated, I imagine.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. annie (537 comments) says:

    wreck1080 (2,518) Says:
    November 20th, 2012 at 2:21 pm

    I’ve observed over my IT career that while there are a few pacific island IT workers out there, there are hardly any maori.

    Actually, I’ve never ever worked with a maori in my entire career. But, there are good opportunities in IT and it is not too difficult so what gives?

    Sampling error maybe? Regional differences? When I worked in IT I worked with several people clearly identifiable as Maori, and my IT-working daughter also works with several. Then there’s those of us who look white but have a foot in each cultural camp.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. dime (9,356 comments) says:

    “Many science and engineering graduates just go to Australia, so fat lot of good some extra money will do to that skills shortage (except for improving Australia’s science and engineering sectors)”

    lmao no worries brad. lets cut all funding then. any course that leads to jobs in demand overseas and ESPECIALLY in aussie will blacklisted! fuckin aussies. lets see how many maori history graduates they will take from us!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. scrubone (3,044 comments) says:

    Many science and engineering graduates just go to Australia, so fat lot of good some extra money will do to that skills shortage (except for improving Australia’s science and engineering sectors)

    Yes, it would be so much better if they stayed in this country. Heck, why not pass a law that engineers can’t do *anything* to get experience while you’re at it?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. Cunningham (811 comments) says:

    dime (5,094) and scrubone (1,552) Brad does have a point. I do get sick of hearing about the number of people who study and then fuck off to Australia. I am not saying don’t train them in these areas (on the contrary train as many as we need) but its pretty frustrating knowing that Aussie is thriving based on the people we train up for them. Yet companies out there cannot get skilled people. How do we change that? Are there recruitment companies out there trying to get these people back into these companies with shortages? Maybe Labour will propose starting up a ‘Kiwirecruit’ company to get them back!!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. Bob R (1,334 comments) says:

    ***We need to see a Pasifika presence in all of these areas because Pasifika are actually a big part of our younger population that will be essential for driving ahead NZ Inc’s future.”***

    Unfortunately, the average psychometric scores for these groups is similar to that of African Americans. And they have exactly the same problems in getting them into these demanding science and engineering courses. East Asians have particularly high average IQ and accordingly are overrepresented in courses like engineering where you need math ability. People need to learn some psychometrics before engaging in wishful thinking.

    Gottfredson, L. S. (2005). Implications of cognitive differences for schooling within diverse societies. Pages 517-554 in C. L. Frisby & C. R. Reynolds (Eds.), Comprehensive Handbook of Multicultural School Psychology. New York: Wiley.

    http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2005cognitivediversity.pdf

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,787 comments) says:

    You don’t have to go very far to find yet another political activist masquerading as a churchman.

    http://pacificeyewitness.com/2012/08/15/parnell-based-reverend-unasa-challenges-manukaus-pacific-views/

    That’s how Labour gets the Presbyterian Church to pay its activists.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. Psycho Milt (2,246 comments) says:

    Do I have this right? The Government gives Auckland University some extra money for engineering and science (because we have skill shortages in those areas) and the university thinks it can just take the money, and spend it on the Arts Faculty???

    You have it almost right. The University doesn’t “think” it can spend its bulk grant on the courses it deems suitable, it can spend its bulk grant on the courses it deems suitable, this being in the nature of bulk funding.

    If Stephen Joyce fancies himself as a decision-maker in the courses offered by the University of Auckland, he can always apply for the VC job when it becomes vacant.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    Obviously the malady that infects the Hamilton City Council (who think they have no duty to be responsible for the money they spend) has started to creep north and infect the Auckland university.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. hmmokrightitis (1,506 comments) says:

    wreck, what annie said. Ive worked in IT for, gulp, nearly 30 years. Still do. In the IT teams I know, there is a strong representation of both Pacific and Maori people, me included. In the last IT team I was a part of, the 100 who worked for me, there were, from memory, at least 15 who were one or the other. Plus a couple of really hot lesbians :)

    15 out of a 100. And thats by no means unusual from my experience, covering dozens of IT shops across the country.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    “Tertiary Education Minister Steven Joyce told a Herald series on job/skill mismatches, which began yesterday, that he would direct the university to take more engineering and science students if it did not do so voluntarily in response to funding changes.”

    Ha ha you lot are fucking pathetic.

    What happened to the free market? Did it end up in the same place as Ecan and dirty greedy farmers? Or perhaps the Christchurch central city rebuild?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. bhudson (4,734 comments) says:

    vto,

    What do you not grasp about the concept of additional funding for specific purposes?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. MT_Tinman (2,984 comments) says:

    Psycho Milt (841) Says:
    November 20th, 2012 at 3:05 pm

    If Stephen Joyce fancies himself as a decision-maker in the courses offered by the University of Auckland, he can always apply for the VC job when it becomes vacant.

    Or, of course he can simply say “We gave you that money for a specific purpose and you will use it for that purpose or face consequences.”.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    bhudson,

    What did you miss when you read these words “… he would direct …”.

    And anyway, what is the free-marketeer Joyce doing sticking his nose into the free market again? Bloody nanny state telling people what they should be doing.

    It is exactly in line with the Ecan theft – farmers and farming business cound’t achieve what they wanted through the free market and democratic processes so they ask nanny state government to remove the free market and democratic processes so they can simply steal what they couldn’t achieve. Dirty cunts.

    Similarly with the central Chch rebuild – perfect opportunity to prove the credentials of the free market, but oh no gotta stick the big nose in.

    Similarly with the NZX and placing the taxpayers power companies there. To support the NZX – that bastion of free marketeering. But is fails to achieve. So what does it do? Ask government to intervene and bolster its prospects.

    Sikmilarly with Central Plains Water – oh, fantastic business this irrigation. But can they raise the money from the free market? Oh no. So get loans from old lady ratepayers in the Selwyn District. Get government funding.

    Fucking pathetic.

    But I am sure you will continue to dance on your pin. Small man.

    [DPF: Ummn you are missing a rather key point. It is not a free market. It is a taxpayer funded market. Of course Joyce should not get involved if it is students deciding what courses to attend. But if it is the Government deciding where to spend very scarce taxpayer funding, of course the Minister and Government get to decide priorities]

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. Alan Johnstone (1,054 comments) says:

    I find Maori and Poly people very under represented in IT;

    In my experience in NZ the average IT shop in NZ will have somewhere between 50% – 60% of staff born overseas. Evenly split between UK & S Africans and Asians.

    Of the remaining 40% – 50% native born NZ’ers, 95% of them are Euro.

    It’s clearly a great waste of skills and talent, and the country would be better off if we could bring young Maori and Pacific people into these work streams.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Imagine if you sold hamburgers and the government told you to stop because consumers were wrongly choosing to buy them, and you should be selling paint instead? Then imagine if your customer complained that they wanted hamburgers and the government told them they could stick it and if they weren’t careful the government would take over the hot-dog stand and force people to eat paint?

    Interesting how a government apparently about deregulation and reducing government intervention in ‘the market’ can just pull a new consumer need out of its ass and then intervene with funding to to try and make it true.

    Here’s an idea – why not invest into industries that need scientists and engineers and thus create the market-demand for people to fill those jobs? What about additional tax-incentives for people to get into those kinds of study? How about reviewing the decision to underfund scientific research and development? How about those jobs we were promised? How about instead of bailing out a finance company, overnight we invested it into education?

    How about instead of blaming viable businesses for their successes as a smokescreen for policy which has failed to deliver, actually applauding them for doing their job well?

    Before anyone accuses me of ‘communism’, remember, I’m not the one trying to force its citizens to eat paint.

    [DPF: As with others you miss the point!!! This is taxpayer money, not customers money.]

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. Kleva Kiwi (281 comments) says:

    “annie (466) Says:
    November 20th, 2012 at 2:13 pm

    Engineering and science though, really? Don’t we have an oversupply of engineers already? And I am certainly aware that there’s no money in a science career in NZ. You’d usually earn more doing a bog standard BCom and managing science graduates.”

    Wow. What fantasy world do you live in?

    NZ has an annual shortfall of over 500 engineers a year. NZ as a country actively recruits in UK and the rest of Europe for new and experienced engineers constantly. The opportunities in the industry are staggering. Christchurch currently has over 300 “imported” engineers and is still actively recruiting more. Engineering is a core profession that allows us to have a civilisation and the lack of promotion/funding at the tertiary level has been poor at best. About time.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    That is exactly right LeeC.

    What this government says and what this government does are miles apart. But their supporters will dance on that pin and create all the excuses in the world because to do otherwise would be to admit that they are in fact wrong and they will look like unthinking fools.

    Both the extreme left and the extreme right do this. Witness this government and its disciples.

    Wake up and open your eyes fools.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. wreck1080 (3,722 comments) says:

    “Sampling error maybe? Regional differences? When I worked in IT I worked with several people clearly identifiable as Maori, and my IT-working daughter also works with several”

    Anecdotal evidence based solely on my personal experience. I’ve worked with hundreds of people over the years, I’d have expected a few more maoris at the very least — maybe there were a couple in my first job but I do not readily recall them. As I said I’ve worked with a few pacific islanders, but, no maori .

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. Tautaioleua (281 comments) says:

    It’s no hidden secret that Pasifika students are inherently practical from the word GO. It surprises me that the chairperson of the Pacific Peoples Advisory Panel thinks the “arts & education” are the pillars of Pacific tertiary achievement. It might well be the case now, but it almost certainly shouldn’t be thirty years from now.

    Our Pacific people should be naturals at carpentry, engineering, electricity, and other trades. It certainly beats graduating with a BA in sociology and working at the Auckland Airport as a Customer Service Agent :-)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. Bob R (1,334 comments) says:

    **It’s clearly a great waste of skills and talent**

    @ Alan Johnstone,

    How do you know? If a group has an average IQ of 100 then you would expect about 16% of that population to average 115 or over (about the level for IT?). If the average is 85, then you would expect about 2% of that population to score around that level.

    This is the Bell Curve for African American & Europeans in the US. Maori and Pasifika average around 90 IIRC.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/34/Two_Curve_Bell_with_Jobs.jpg/440px-Two_Curve_Bell_with_Jobs.jpg

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. Cunningham (811 comments) says:

    Lee C except its not fucking hamburgers is it? Its people using tens of thousands of taxpayer dollars doing a worthless degree and then coming out and going onto the dole because they cannot get a job (and moaning about it most likely). Like that fucktard vto, you have no concept of the fact that money comes from taxpayers so the government has owes it to the taxpayer to ensure it is spent wisely.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. DJP6-25 (1,268 comments) says:

    Scrub the student loan scheme entirely. Leave it up to students, institutions, and banks. Make the loan a tax write off when they get a job. The market wil soon sort out how many graduates are needed and where. Or you could just leave it up to your grandchildren to take a second job to keep up the flow of OPM. I’m sure they’ll be charmed

    cheers

    David Prosser

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. kowtow (7,581 comments) says:

    What’s all this crap about Pacific leaders? Is this New Zealand or not? Diversity and multiculturalism has given rise to this division and entitled attitude in society.

    New Zealanders.That’s what we are and if you insist on identifying so strongly with a particular ethnicity and demanding funding basd on race,then go home.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. Bob R (1,334 comments) says:

    @ kowtow,

    Unfortunately, humans are tribal to some extent. Whites less so, but smaller groups like polynesians or Hispanics in the US seem to strongly identify with their own ethnicity and want to see representatives of their own kind.

    The problem in this case is that groups are always going to have different levels of representation in academic areas like engineering because it is cognitively demanding. And groups don’t have an identical spread of ability, just as they don’t when it comes to athletic ability. Only creationists would have trouble understanding this.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. Longknives (4,390 comments) says:

    “I’m very disturbed by the threat from minister Joyce. I can see a Pasifika uprising on this threat,” he said”

    What an extremely odd thing to threaten the Minister with. As if 90% of New Zealand’s Pacific Community even know (or care) about Auckland University funding..

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. Alan Johnstone (1,054 comments) says:

    @Bob R;

    I hear what you are saying but my gut tells the bell curve thing has flaws; I’ve read a lot of Prof Charles Murray and whilst there is a lot of good there; I’m not convinced 100%. I haven’t did the work required to present a articulate a well thought out position on it yet; it’s a complex subject.

    If it’s true though, the implications for NZ are very bad; it would suggest we have 30% of the population that are only good for low paying jobs in the primary sector; the kind of jobs that don’t exist anymore.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. Bob R (1,334 comments) says:

    ***If it’s true though, the implications for NZ are very bad; it would suggest we have 30% of the population that are only good for low paying jobs in the primary sector; the kind of jobs that don’t exist anymore.***

    @ Alan Johnstone,

    Yep, it’s a major problem. I mean it would be a problem in any case because a large portion of the european population are dependent on those jobs too. But it’s exacerbated in NZ’s case by the growing Pasifika population which has lower levels of academic attainment. The US has the same problem with its growing Hispanic population and educational attainment levels.

    Not many people know about psychometrics, but it predicts a lot of these issues. Linda Gottfredson who I cited above has published a lot on the subject.

    Gottfredson, L. S. (2006). Social consequences of group differences in cognitive ability (Consequencias sociais das diferencas de grupo em habilidade cognitiva). In C. E. Flores-Mendoza & R. Colom (Eds.), Introducau a psicologia das diferencas

    http://www.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2004socialconsequences.pdf

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. nasska (10,611 comments) says:

    Auckland University isn’t the only provider of tertiary education in NZ & I’d hate to see taxpayer money forced on those who wish to display such an arrogant attitude. Could not Mr Joyce simply state that he has ‘X’ amount of extra money available to offer placements for more science/engineering students?

    Then wait & see which universities apply for the ear tagged funding.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. bc (1,332 comments) says:

    Hmmm, so from reading this post it appears that bulk funding is bad now.

    ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    you dumb cunts are all at sea ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. mikenmild (10,611 comments) says:

    We have developed at vast expense over the past ten years a system where the government, in the shape of Mr Joyce, can set the priorities for public investment in tertiary education. Mr Joyce has set those priorities and has instructed the Tertiary Education Commission, which he appoints, to implement them in funding agreements with each tertiary provider, including Auckland University. There are different buckets of money, and universities are not completely bulk funded, but a large university (and Auckland is by far away our biggest and best ranked) has a very high degree of autonomy. The TEC was set up precisely so that Ministers wouldn’t have to decide how many degrees of what type each university would award each year.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Yes Cunningham, it’s people, not hamburgers.

    People who are prepared to take a loan, work for a better future for themselves and their families, and far from whining about their lot, actually try to do something proactive about it. Of course, they deserve your scorn, after all, you think hard work and ambition is only any use if the ‘right kind of person’ has it, evidently, like they can seriously predict that the economy might tank, and the jobs will disappear after being promised they can all get jobs helping to build the cycleway only a couple of years ago.

    But that’s not the only thing, the ‘taxpayer dollars’ you are so keen to earmark, are now going increasingly into PTE. Private Training Enterprises. Yes, your tax is now being funnelled into the pockets of those entrepreneurs who set up their PTE’s and provide substandard Mac-education quals, pay ‘competitive’ rates to educators and then ring the bell for the next round of taxpayer cash (your cash, mind) and under-educated kids to line their retirement portfolios.

    So the net result is perhaps 900 tertiary sector jobs are likely to go, and investment into foundation education re-allocated to the above, and away from the ‘quality’ institutions. The tall poppy kneejerkers will applaud this of course..

    So really this spin about engineers and scientists is bullshit, when you look at the big picture. Because as our neoliberal creed is so often likely to remind us, no one will invest, borrow, and train for jobs that aren’t there, and guess what? can you or anyone point to the kinds of quality jobs that have been produced under this government that are likely to be crying out for these bright young things?

    In essence kids will borrow, take the education and run, far far away where the jobs are. Meanwhile you’ll get older, join the superannuated still wondering where your tax-paying dollars went. Until one day, when. of course, the guy who will be wiping your arse in the old peoples’ home turns out to be – wait for it – more likely be qualified with an arts or humanities education than a scientific or engineering one. That is, of course, if you can find any willing to wipe your arse, after they endured your withering scorn for so long.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. bc (1,332 comments) says:

    Ye gods, vto – if that is the best that you can come up, you have been seriously smacked about by the dumb stick.
    I think it would take you an hour and a half to watch 60 minutes.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    Exactly as I said Farrar, keep dancing on that pin small man.

    The tide is well out and receding fast

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. Falafulu Fisi (2,176 comments) says:

    Quote…
    Rev Uesifili UNasa, the university’s chaplain and head of Auckland Council’s Pacific Peoples Advisory Panel, said the move threatened Pacific participation in the university, which was concentrated in faculties such as arts and education.

    Rev (Rev Uesifili UNasa) Asshole must be told to go fuck himself. I have been advocated for a long time that it is time that University of Auckland should downsize its Arts Faculty and up-size Science/Engineering. There are too many useless Departments at the Arts faculties, such as the Maori Department, Pacific Studies Department, Film & Television Department, etc,…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. mikenmild (10,611 comments) says:

    Perhaps you should stand for Parliament and when elected reorganise tertiary education according to your whims.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. Psycho Milt (2,246 comments) says:

    But if it is the Government deciding where to spend very scarce taxpayer funding, of course the Minister and Government get to decide priorities

    It may come as a shock, but universities aren’t a branch of the public service. Joyce doesn’t get to tell Stuart McCutcheon what courses will be taught in what numbers at the University of Auckland, any more than the Minister of Justice gets to instruct judges how to interpret the law. McCutcheon was commendably polite in his response.

    I have been advocated for a long time that it is time that University of Auckland should downsize its Arts Faculty and up-size Science/Engineering

    And they ignored your recommendations, as though you were just some internet blowhard? Astonishing!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. vto (1,128 comments) says:

    Exactly psycho milt. Farrar and his band of merry gay men are flailing around while their brains have long since fallen out of their heads.

    The entire spectrum of current right wing philosophies have withered under the heat of cross-examination, reality and 29 dead men at Pike River.

    Nothing they say actually stacks up anymore. It is time to acknowledge that right wing limitations have been surpassed and need to be re-assessed, adjusted and set at new parameters so they can be useful once again. This will happen, but it will be gradual as heads with fallen out brains take a while to realise these things… take it from one whose brain often leaves its head…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. mikenmild (10,611 comments) says:

    Government policy towards tertiary education has been little changed under the present government. There been a little but of fiddling with the TEC, putting the reliable Wira Gardiner in charge and directing a bit more money to private institutions, but the overall priorities have scarcely changed at all.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. Falafulu Fisi (2,176 comments) says:

    We don’t need more Gender studies qualified people like Mikemild. That sort of study one can just read it up in a week and be expert in it. The resources should concentrate on real knowledge that lead to real productive in the economy. If an engineer or scientist somehow get bored in doing real productvie work, then he/she can always go and borrow some books from PyschoMilt’s library and read about them, then become an expert so he/she can apply to the Women’s affair department where useless pricks like MikeMild works to get a job there.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. Paul Williams (876 comments) says:

    This wasn’t my fav thread until…

    And they ignored your recommendations, as though you were just some internet blowhard? Astonishing!

    …it just so improved. Psycho Milt; made of funny.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. BlairM (2,286 comments) says:

    I agree with Milt for once. It’s not the job of the Minister to tell a University how to spend its funding. Academic freedom and all that. The real question is whether the government should be taking money from plumbers and other hard working tradespeople and using it to fund some dopey twat from Remmers into a sociology degree. Not that I’m not personally grateful for my own degree, but it’s hardly economically efficient. Universities should be able to sink or swim on their own.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    ‘Internet blowhard’ I’d wear tha ton z t-girt.

    (damn thi ediy buttim)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. mikenmild (10,611 comments) says:

    Falafulu’s problem (well, one of them) is that she doesn’t understand the concept of a university. I know that we have let polytechnics and other training organisation pretend to be universities in recent years, but even someone as narrow-mind as Falafulu might be able to discern, dimly, the difference between education and training.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Graduating engineers in NZ start on 50,000..The same young people can start on about 115,000 in Aussie..Why wouldn’t they go to Aussie?? There is no point increasing funding for engineering and science in the Unis when the teaching of maths and science in the schools is at such a low standard..Few NZ school pupils leave school with any possibility of studying engineering because they haven’t even mastered the most basic maths let alone engineering level maths.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. mikenmild (10,611 comments) says:

    NZ school leavers reach very good standards in maths and science by most international measures. Lower starting wages for engineers in NZ are nothing to do with how NZ trains engineers.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. Falafulu Fisi (2,176 comments) says:

    Mike, the point I’m arguing about is to relegate university courses that are of vocation in nature to where they belong and that is technical institutes and the obvious one in a list of examples of vocational training is Film, Television & Media courses. Just browse the University of Auckland, Film & Television Department and count how many PhD candidates they currently have. A fucking whopping 26. This number is more than the combined PhD candidates from both Chemistry & Physics. It means that UoA is funding a fucking useless research topic from a PhD candidate in Film/TV/Media on Cross-dressing and androgyny in popular film. What a fucken waste of research money.

    During my time as a student, the science faculty (Physics & Chemistry) had to share one scanning tunneling microscope with the School of Engineering (Chemical Engineering Department) and this machine is/was housed at the School of Engineering. It was very expensive then, at a price ~ 1/2 million. The University couldn’t afford to buy 3 different machines for those respective faculties (it made sense). Students had to book the lab hours to use the STM in advance since there are 3 Departments using it. Again, during my time, the University had one super-computer only that the science faculty had to share with the School of Engineering and this $2 million dollar machine is/was housed at the School of Engineering. The people (Phd candidates, post-docs & academic staffs) who were doing particle/nuclear physics research from the Physics Department at the now demolished AURA-2 (University of Auckland Particle Linear Accelerator) needed to do high speed simulation & analysis of their data but had complained that the Engineering School had monopolized the use of the super-computer for themselves and less time allocated for researchers from other departments to use it. They said (at the time) that both the Electrical & Mechanical Engineering Departments always say that their researchers need to run long simulations (both in engineering electromagnetics & fluid dynamics) before the super-computer can be made available to researchers from other departments at certain times. Again, the reason for having only one super-computer to be shared is because the University couldn’t afford to buy more than 3 different machines for each department that needs to run high speed simulations & analysis.

    Now back to my point. If you chop half of the useless courses & departments that don’t belong at University, then expensive machineries for Engineering & Science become affordable.

    And as your question of concept of University, I say, that’s a meaningless question. What’s the difference in running Unversity courses in Psychics/Paranormal and running courses in gay/lesbian/queer theory? Yep, according to you, it is education. I say it is fucking useless education. If a private institution is doing it, then that’s fine. A publicly funded institution should not do that. You must be aware that there are universities around the world that teaches paranormal, don’t you? So, if to apply your concept of what a University should be, then why not teach paranormal? It is after all education. Right? Wrong.

    Steven Joyce is right on the mark that Universities should increase funding for science & engineering but chop useless courses.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    No he isn’t.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. mikenmild (10,611 comments) says:

    Falafulu
    Funnily enough, I agree with much of your last comment. My view is that NZ already sends too many students to university in the name of ‘access to tertiary education’. The government would be perfectly entitled to direct its cash more stringently. The past few governments have not – they agree very much on the thrust of tertiary education policy. So we have too many students at too many institutions (both public and private) doing too many low-quality courses.

    Where I disagree is with your solution, which I consider to be over simplified. I might find film studies, gender studies, etc a bit ludicrous overall, but I wouldn’t entirely rule out the possibility that genuine research in such fields might be a useful contribution to the store of human knowledge. I’d certainly cut out any public funding to training anyone as osteopaths, chiropractors and other pseudo-sciences; but that’s a little off-topic.

    I am sure your solution would be for a complete state withdrawal from funding or direct provision of any education and training. That ain’t going to happen. The best course is to push for achievable changes, such as using existing mechanisms to encourage institutions to educate (or train) people in useful areas. It is always going to be the students that are likely to have the most informed view of what they should study.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    MnM
    Obviously you have no idea of the standards in Asia..Singapore , South Korea, Malaysia..etc.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote

Leave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.