Beyond belief

February 6th, 2013 at 11:00 am by David Farrar

Stuff reports:

A paedophile caught in a nationwide operation offered to pay a man $500 to experience ”sexual gratification” with a young boy, according to a police court summary.

The paedophile, Aaron Ellmers, 41, appeared in Hastings District Court this morning and pleaded guilty to a raft of child sex offences that the Crown has described amongst the country’s worst.

One of the offences involved Ellmers travelling to Christchurch where a man had offered an 18-month-old boy to him for $500.

The father was arrested and is facing charges related to the incident. He has name suppression.

I almost can’t believe that a father could sell sexual favours with his infant son. That is a degree of inhumanity that I just can not fathom.

I hope the father gets a jail sentence as long as the paedophile.

Ellmers had served a prison sentence in Australia before being deported to New Zealand.

He lived in Australia between 1999 and 2008. In 2004 he sexually abused an 8-year-old boy, whom he had groomed after befriending his parents.

He served five years in prison and was deported back to New Zealand in 2008.

In court this morning Crown lawyer Steve Manning said it was among the worst offending of its kind. He asked for the matter to be moved to the High Court as an application for preventative detention would be made.

Good. Sounds like a no brainer.

I was debating with my flatmate this morning which of the two is more evil and should be tortured for longer before being executed. We agreed the father is slightly more evil.

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139 Responses to “Beyond belief”

  1. tvb (4,255 comments) says:

    Pimping your infant son to a paedophile must rank as one of the worst forms of child abuse. I assume the court will deal with it appropriately. I wonder what charge gets laid. Perhaps a similar charge as the paedophile being a party to the offence. And then pd for the father as well.

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  2. wreck1080 (3,810 comments) says:

    Disgusting!

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  3. dime (9,667 comments) says:

    umm the father of the kid is most probably a pedo too.

    this is the sort of unreal shit you see on something like criminal minds.

    the dude will get PD. a bullet to the back of the head may be more humane though.

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  4. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Why the surprise? This sort of thing is well known. I recall about twenty years ago , the WGTN police warning parents re the 200 known paedophiles in the area. They said the worst places for them was shopping malls and swimming pools..but obviously friendly men befriending one’s family is a major part of it..An awful aspect of all this is how it undermines genuine friendship.

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  5. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    The beast deserves a bullet. Anything else is too gentle.

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  6. David Garrett (6,775 comments) says:

    Well DPF, at the risk of getting banned….wait for paedophilia to become “normalized”… this is what society sets itself up for once you start tinkering with the definitions of basic societal structures such as marriage. Ridiculous extremism you will say? Until the 1970′s homosexuality was considered both a “perversion” and a mental illness….the sufferers of which were regarded and treated no differently from paedos. In fact consider changing language usage; “homos” is now unaccpetable, while “paedos” is fine – and not just because the spelling is more difficult.

    We as a society made the decision to “normalise” homosexuality; an orientation which affects perhaps 5% …how can you logically argue that that does not at least open the way to paedophilia being similarly “normalized”? Granted, one involves two consenting adults – at least legal homosexual activity does – and the other involves abuse of a power imbalance….but do you really think that will stop the strident advocates from AMBLA?

    I find it very amusing that the liberals and lefties always warn solemnly of the “slippery slope” when it comes to harsher treatment of criminals…but the slippery slope doesn’t seem to even be a possibility when it comes to (small “l”) liberal causes.

    But for completeness, I agree with those who say that if capital punishment should be applied, it should be to “fathers” like this prick.

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  7. PhilP (159 comments) says:

    I truly hope that both this “prick” and the so called Father get jail time and are dealt to (sexually) by the thuggish inmates.

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  8. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    @DG. That won’t happen. The “slippery slope” argument is bullshit regardless of who uses it.

    He served five years in prison and was deported back to New Zealand in 2008.

    That’s the problem. Why such a short sentence for abusing an 8 year old? What are our judges and politicians thinking when they look at sentencing a see “molesting a child: five years” and think that is appropriate? (I realise it was in Australia, but we have similar sentences.)

    If this guy was in jail for 20 years, we’d have saved all the kids this guy has hurt since 2008.

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  9. eszett (2,374 comments) says:

    David Garrett (3,156) Says:
    February 6th, 2013 at 11:50 am
    Well DPF, at the risk of getting banned….wait for paedophilia to become “normalized”… this is what society sets itself up for once you start tinkering with the definitions of basic societal structures such as marriage. Ridiculous extremism you will say? Until the 1970′s homosexuality was considered both a “perversion” and a mental illness….the sufferers of which were regarded and treated no differently from paedos. In fact consider changing language usage; “homos” is now unaccpetable, while “paedos” is fine – and not just because the spelling is more difficult.

    Isn’t it funny that David Garrett, once a high profile member of the libertarian ACT party, has difficulty distinguishing between the concept of individual freedom of consenting adults and the rape of children?

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  10. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    I don’t know if this five years is correct..I read somewhere else that he had spent 18 months in jail.
    I agree with DG..along side the normalization of paedophilia , is the lowering of the age of sexual consent..I think in Holland it is 12 or 13..In some islamic countries it is 9. The same people who are pushing this are also pushing for the abolition of the word paedophilia. The term ”minor attracted adults ” is being increasingly used even here in NZ.

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  11. speters (108 comments) says:

    DG – I think the distinction between a victimless act between two consenting adults and the rape of a young child is quite an important one to be honest.

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  12. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    How the hell are we to protect our children and grand children?

    You’re not going to like this but ads should be made to steer possible future paedo’s to help lines. It’s a sickness, a mental condition that needs attention like that of shizophrenia.

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  13. Black with a Vengeance (1,715 comments) says:

    David Garrett defender of children’s rights, but only the live ones.

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  14. dime (9,667 comments) says:

    black – youre the most boring troll i see online. sad.

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  15. peterwn (3,215 comments) says:

    Criterion for Preventative Detention is a past pattern of sexual related offending (a sort of predecessor to the three strikes rule). So while the guy who offered the $500 is very likely to get PD, the father of the potential victim probably will not despite being more ‘evil’.

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  16. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    Isn’t it funny that David Garrett, once a high profile member of the libertarian ACT party, has difficulty distinguishing between the concept of individual freedom of consenting adults and the rape of children?

    Isn’t it funny that Rodney Hide and other libertarians supported Jim Peron, libertarian bookshop owner and supporter of NAMBLA in the States when he was found by New Zealand authorities to an undesirable?

    I find it amazing that the same people who like to point out a disproportionate amount of crime and child abuse among Maori which is true but cry homophobic when it is pointed out that there is a very disproportionate amount of underage sex in the homosexual community.

    There has never been a group of heterosexuals who have formed a political lobby group like NAMBLA which lobbies for lower the age of consent.

    I remember when I was in my teens in Canada that young guys used to joke a jail bait being an underage girl. However, here or in Canada mature adult males do not think it some sort joke if an adult man has sex with a girl under 16. The homosexual community has a word for an underage boy that is “chicken”. He abuse is referred to as a “chicken hawk” and not in a derogatory manner.

    http://www.homosexinfo.org/Sexuality/Slang

    I have as much basis for my belief that homosexual marriage will increase abuse as that not redefining marriage will result in more young confused boys committing suicide.

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  17. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    ” The term ”minor attracted adults ” is being increasingly used even here in NZ.”

    Who have you heard use such a term Joana? Why not name him or her?

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  18. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    “minor attracted adults”

    I’ve never heard that term until you said it just then, joana.

    The Islamic countries have a major problem, but that is because they have a religion that enables them to do cruel things to each other. In the non-fucked-up world, there was actually probably much more child sexual abuse in the past, back when homosexuality was still illegal.

    I’m not sure why some people have such a difficult time with the difference between consenting adults, and children. Maybe you have the same problem that the pedos do?

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  19. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @David Garrett

    Attitudes to homosexuality have normalised because society recognises that adult relationships are based on consent.

    If the victim in this case was little girl, would you complain about society’s acceptance of heterosexual relationships?

    This case is shocking because it is an inversion of a parent’s duty to care for and protect their child.

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  20. Black with a Vengeance (1,715 comments) says:

    Slow day huh dime?

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  21. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @Chuck Bird

    Your assertion that there’s a “disproportionate amount of underage sex in the homosexual community” is not supported by any statistics that I’m aware of. You are welcome to provide statistics if you have them.

    The high teenage pregnancy rate in NZ suggests that underage sex is an activity that is practiced by teenagers of all orientations.

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  22. eszett (2,374 comments) says:

    I have as much basis for my belief that homosexual marriage will increase abuse as that not redefining marriage will result in more young confused boys committing suicide.

    What’s that basis, Chucky? You blind and ignorant hatred of homosexuals?

    Of course, heterosexuals never ever dream of having sex with underaged. Yeah right. Just google Barely18 or such. Hardly a niche market. Also how about a brief trip to Phuket where you can freely observe your heterosexual lobby for underage sex in action.

    Truth is, hetero or homo, there is a certain proportion of people attracted to young, possibly underaged, sex partners.

    You however always and invariably single out homosexuals.

    By your “logic” we should outlaw marriage because it promotes underaged sex amongst heterosexuals.

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  23. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    joana (1,601) Says:
    February 6th, 2013 at 12:18 pm

    I have heard of this term before with someone i thought was an evil paedophile and so did everyone else that came to the discussion until i realized that he or she was trying to find ways to check the problem before hand rather than have to react like we do every time we see this hits our headlines.

    It’s a sexual sickness that looks like substance abuse gone wrong, i don’t know but it is a problem.

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  24. tropicana (79 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird. Well said.

    Never mind slippery slope. Does it not occur to people that this man is not a slippery-slope situation. The guy is what we have come to expect of gay men for centuries, till we suddenly decided that we can’t talk about such things any more.

    Connect the dots.

    (a) Ellmers is a gay man; and

    (b) Ellmers is a decades-long-already proven paedophile with the criminal record.

    No extrapolation needed. Connect the dots, full-stop.

    But whatever you do, find another gay man to hug today, to prove how much you are in vogue with the rest of the gay-hugging community. Tell yourself whatever lies you need to tell yourself that Ellmers is the aberration.

    Connect the dots. Stop lying to yourselves.

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  25. bc (1,353 comments) says:

    David Garrett @ 11.50am

    A rather disappointing post from you. I don’t always agree wih what you say, but your posts are usually thoughtful and well written. I guess we can all have an off day.
    Do you really want to be compared with the homosexual = paedophile nutters? (e.g. see tropicana’s post above)

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  26. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    @gump

    I have supplied the facts many times but am too busy to look them up although they are readily available.

    Just consider the percentage of homosexuals in the population. It is about 3% including bisexuals.

    It is always hard to get real accurate figures for the relative numbers of underage boys sexually abuses compared to girls. Estimates are that at least half as many boys are and the majority is done by men and men who sexually abuse boys particularly adolescent boys are by definition homosexuals.

    One does not have to do the math to see that homosexual are greatly overrepresented in sexual abuse of minors and the ones who are are pretty busy fellows. There job is also made easier because of the pro homosexual propaganda that is everywhere.

    There is probably a lot more chance of a confused adolescent who is sexually abused committing suicide than one who thinks they may be homosexual committing suicide because he cannot marry his boyfriend.

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  27. David Garrett (6,775 comments) says:

    bc: Perhaps I did not explain myself very well. I will try again.

    NO I do not equate homosexuality with paedophilia – if I did, my close gay friend of 25 years standing would not be the godfather of my children, and a person with whom I am happy to leave them any time. I am well aware that one can be homosexual and have no sexual interest in children.

    What I AM saying is that just as homosexuality is a sexual orientation, so is paedophilia. If Peter Jenkins – who I am sure won’t mind me calling “a gay friend” is online – he will be able to list links to sound information which demonstrates that paedophilia is also a sexual orientation.

    I personally have no problem with homosexuality – once a mental disorder included in DSM III, the “bible” of psychiatric disorders – being normalized. But by definition, homosexuality is “abnormal” ; it deviates from the norm of heterosexuality. Even the most strident gay activists would not claim that homosexuals comprise more than about 0% of any society, and that figure – based as it is on Kinsey’s flawed research – is now considered generous; the true figure is probably less than half that.

    Whatever one thinks about normalising homosexuality, it is pointless to deny that once one deviation from the sexual norm is no longer considered abnormal, another cannot potentially also be – whether the latter deviation is paedophilia, necrophilia, masochism or bestiality.

    Those of you who decry the logic of this argument are effectivly saying “Oh no, there is a line in the sand (sex between adults and children) that no-one would ever seek to make normal.” Well, good luck with that.

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  28. David Garrett (6,775 comments) says:

    Shit…hasty editing while trying to do something else…that sentence should read:

    “Even the most strident gay activists would not claim that homosexuals comprise more than about 10% of any society…”

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  29. BeaB (2,084 comments) says:

    A Christchurch primary school principal named Trevor Ellmers disappeared into the bush without trace many years ago (1970′s?). I wonder if there is a link? We never knew why he disappeared or where he went but it’s usually sex, drugs or money.

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  30. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    Gay = Paedophile…..um no. sounds like a meme. I know a lot of gay people and they seem to caught up in their looks, their material acquisition and gossiping about one another but they are a minority of what 2%.

    2%? So who is actually pushing the gay debate? this 2%.

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  31. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    “So who is actually pushing the gay debate?”

    Partly but also people who have adopted the libertarian ideology similar to born again Christians in their fanaticism.

    “The human brain is a complex organ with the wonderful power of enabling man to find reasons for continuing to believe whatever it is that he wants to believe.” – Voltaire

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  32. Pete George (23,344 comments) says:

    DG, one big difference I can think of – probably most of us know gay people that we know are good people, as good as any heterosexuals we know, for example as tristworthy with children.

    Very few of us will know any paedophiles, but if we did, and those who do, will probably almost all despise their behaviour.

    There is zero indication any attempt will be made for paedophilia will be ‘normalised’ in the forseeable future, and I’m sure if anyone bothered polling on it there would be overwhelming opposition.

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  33. Fletch (6,150 comments) says:

    David Garrett, well said.

    Don’t think it won’t happen. There are already moves afoot to remove paedophilia as a mental illness and to try and normalize it. There was a conference in Baltimore only a couple years ago to discuss just this –

    If a small group of Psychiatrists and other mental health professionals have their way at a conference this week, pedophiles themselves could play a role in removing pedophilia from the American Psychiatric Association’s bible of mental illnesses — the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), set to undergo a significant revision by 2013.  Critics warn that their success could lead to the decriminalization of pedophilia.

    The August 17 Baltimore conference is sponsored by B4U-ACT, a group of pro-pedophile mental health professionals and sympathetic activists.  According to the conference brochure, the event will examine “ways in which minor-attracted persons [pedophiles] can be involved in the DSM 5 revision process” and how the popular perceptions of pedophiles can be reframed to encourage tolerance.

    This from someone who was there –

    “As a former law enforcement officer I’ve dealt with situations involving suicide, homicide and other violence. That said, I’ve never felt the level of spiritual oppression and evil that I felt in that room,” Liberty Counsel Action Vice President Matt Barber told LifeSiteNews.

    “These mental health ‘professionals,’ and self-described pedophile and ‘gay’ activists were inexplicably able to cavalierly discuss, in an almost dismissive way, the idea of child rape,” Barber said. “They used flowery, euphemistic psychobabble to give quasi-scientific cover to a discussion about the worst kind of perversion.”

    The organization B4U-ACT sponsored the event in Baltimore last week, which was attended by pro-pedophile activists and mental health professionals. The conference examined the ways in which “minor-attracted persons” could be involved in a revision of the American Psychological Association (APA) classification of pedophilia.

    It will happen.

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  34. Harriet (4,616 comments) says:

    “…..But by definition, homosexuality is “abnormal” ; it deviates from the norm of heterosexuality….”

    David, I keep telling them that homosexuals and hetrosexuals have exactly the same fertility rates, which means that homosexuals supress their desire to be who they REALLY are -instead- they want to be something differant by elevating sexual deviancy above themselves.

    Worshipers! :cool:

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  35. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    What I AM saying is that just as homosexuality is a sexual orientation, so is paedophilia.

    So is heterosexuality.

    But by definition, homosexuality is “abnormal” ; it deviates from the norm of heterosexuality.

    By definition of what? By definition of “normality”? There is no clear definition of that.

    If you don’t believe 10%, then maybe 5%? That’s one in twenty. Fewer than 1 in twenty human beings are blond, does that make them abnormal? It just makes them a slightly less common variation of normal.

    Normal/abnormal should not matter anyway. If I want to sew buttons to my earlobes, that’s clearly abnormal, but it doesn’t hurt anyone else and there should be no law against it. But if I get my kicks out of pushing over elderly people, I should be arrested.

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  36. eszett (2,374 comments) says:

    Whatever one thinks about normalising homosexuality, it is pointless to deny that once one deviation from the sexual norm is no longer considered abnormal, another cannot potentially also be – whether the latter deviation is paedophilia, necrophilia, masochism or bestiality.

    Those of you who decry the logic of this argument are effectivly saying “Oh no, there is a line in the sand (sex between adults and children) that no-one would ever seek to make normal.” Well, good luck with that.

    The line in the sand is adult consent.

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  37. Black with a Vengeance (1,715 comments) says:

    Life imitates art… De sensitising the public through music videos springs to mind. A form of grooming in itself and perpetrated by whom?

    Dirty old white men mostly, just like the predominant stats for your average pedo I would imagine.

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  38. Fletch (6,150 comments) says:

    ps, the Homosexuality activist, NAMBLA links –

    Most of the public is by now aware of NAMBLA, a group that openly promotes sex with minor boys and claims that boy-lovers respond to the needs of the boys they love. NAMBLA is currently the target of a class action lawsuit by parents of children molested and, in one case, murdered by individuals associated with NAMBLA. Publicly, the mainstream gay organizations distance themselves from NAMBLA. Clearly, this is merely a public relations ploy as the gay leadership realizes its agenda would suffer greatly if the public knew the truth. 

    The reality is that NAMBLA not only describes itself as part of the gay rights coalition, but its literature states that one of its goals is “cooperating with the lesbian, gay, and other movements for sexual liberation.” NAMBLA even “provide[s] financial and other assistance to GLB [Gay, lesbian, bi-sexual] youth organizations . . . .” Indeed, some NAMBLA chapters meet at mainstream gay centers such as Philadelphia’s Gay and Lesbian Community Center. NAMBLA’s meetings and conferences always feature mainstream gay leaders and speakers. For example, Don Kilhefner, of the Los Angeles Gay Community Service Center, gave a speech to Los Angeles NAMBLA members on the subject of “The Significance of Man/Boy Love in the Gay Community.”

    The most comprehensive gay networking website, the Queer Resource Directory (www.qrd.org), links every gay group in the country including NAMBLA and other homosexual groups that focus on youth. NAMBLA marches in gay pride parades with the consent of the gay leadership. Many of the homosexual movement’s most prominent leaders endorse NAMBLA and its goals. Gay authors and leaders such as Allen Ginsberg, Gayle Rubin, Larry Kramer (founder of ACT-UP), Pat Califia, Jane Rule, Michael Kearns, and Michel Foucault have all written in favor of either NAMBLA or man-boy relationships. Harry Hay, whom many consider the founder of the American homosexual movement, invited NAMBLA members to march with him in the 1993 “March on Washington” gay rights parade. He also marched in the 1986 Los Angeles gay parade wearing a shirt emblazoned with the words “NAMBLA walks with me.” 

    Leading mainstream homosexual newspapers and magazines such as the Advocate, Edge, Metroline, The Guide, and The San Francisco Sentinel have not only published pro-NAMBLA articles and columns but also many have editorialized in favor of NAMBLA and sex with children. The editor of The Guide, Ed Hougen, stated in an interview with Lambda Report, “I believe they [NAMBLA] are generally interested in the right of young people to be sexual . . . . I am glad there is a group like NAMBLA that is willing to be courageous.” The San Francisco Sentinel was more blunt: “NAMBLA’s position on sex is not unreasonable, just unpopular. [W]hen a 14 year old gay boy approaches a man for sex, it’s because he wants sex with a man.” 

    There is also the matter of NAMBLA’s membership status in the International Lesbian and Gay Association (ILGA), recognized at one time by the United Nations as the official Non-Government Organization (NGO) representing the gay community worldwide. When NAMBLA’s ILGA membership became public, a whirlwind of international controversy erupted. Some gay leaders viewed this attention as harmful to the gay movement’s image and goals and urged the expulsion of NAMBLA for purely political purposes.

    However, the media failed to report that ILGA itself had hosted workshops on pedophilia and passed resolutions in 1985, 1988, and 1990 to abolish age of consent laws claiming that “same sex age of consent laws often operate to oppress and not to protect” and supported “the right of every individual, regardless of age, to explore and develop her or his sexuality.” 

    Eventually, reacting to congressional legislation threatening the reduction of $119 million in financial support, the United Nations kicked out ILGA in 1995 for refusing to sever ties with a half dozen member groups that advocated or promoted pedophilia.

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  39. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    Harriet:

    David, I keep telling them that homosexuals and hetrosexuals have exactly the same fertility rates, which means that homosexuals supress their desire to be who they REALLY are

    Correct me if this is just me, but men (gay and straight alike) have no ability to control where their sperm swim once they’re heading up that fallopian tube. I guess it’s your same disordered thought that causes you to believe that a zygote is a living breathing human being.

    Yours is the stupidest post I have seen in a long while – and just today I was reading was “Black with a Vengeance” had to say!! I’m not sure if you’re being ironic, in which case, try to make it more obvious.

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  40. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    Dirty old white men mostly, just like the predominant stats for your average pedo I would imagine.

    @BwaV
    Actually, if you look at the statistics, a disproportionate amount of child abuse is committed by Maori on Maori children. But you can bury your head in the sand if you want.

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  41. BeaB (2,084 comments) says:

    What is this manic obsession with the sex lives of other people? Look after your own – if you have one.

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  42. Fletch (6,150 comments) says:

    And –

    Aside from support for NAMBLA by the mainstream gay community, there is a wealth of evidence that homosexuals are the prime force behind the escalating child molestation epidemic. Indeed, over the last fifteen years the homosexual community and its academic allies have published a large quantity of articles that claim sex with children is not harmful to children but, as stated in one homosexual journal, “constitute an aspect of gay and lesbian life.” Such articles have appeared in pro-homosexual academic journals such as The Journal of Homosexuality, The Journal of Sex Research, Archives of Sexual Behavior, and The International Journal of Medicine and Law. The editorial board of the leading pedophile academic journal, Paidika, is dominated by prominent homosexual scholars such as San Francisco State University professor John DeCecco, who happens to edit the Journal of Homosexuality.

    Indeed, the Journal of Homosexuality is the premier academic journal of the mainstream homosexual world and yet it published a special double issue entitled, Male Intergenerational Intimacy, containing dozens of articles portraying sex between men and minor boys as loving relationships. One article states that parents should view the pedophile who loves their son “not as a rival or competitor, not as a theft of their property, but as a partner in the boy’s upbringing, someone to be welcomed into their home.”

    Similarly, mainstream gay publications make no effort to hide their pro-pedophilia views. For example, BLK, a leading black homosexual publication, defended pedophilia with an article entitled, “Must Men Who Love Boys Be Guilty of Sexual Misconduct?” San Francisco’s leading homosexual newspaper, The Sentinel, bluntly editorialized, “The love between man and boys is at the foundation of homosexuality.”  

    In 1995, the homosexual magazine Guide stated:

    We can be proud that the gay movement has been home to the few voices who have had the courage to say out loud that children are naturally sexual, that they deserve the right to sexual expression with whoever they choose . . . [w]e must listen to our prophets. Instead of fearing being labeled pedophiles, we must proudly proclaim that sex is good, including children’s sexuality . . . . We must do it for the children’s sake.

    Yeh, lets do it for the “children’s sake”

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  43. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    The Government owns the majority of Air NZ yet it does not concern Key that men are discriminated on Air NZ flights in that they cannot sit next to an unaccompanied minor. Key could not give a stuff cause it could not happen to him. The same with the anti smacking legislation. He will not affect him.

    Key is a major mover in this pro homosexual legislation. He said before the 2008 election that there would unlikely be more of this PC crap.

    The only good thing about National is that it is better than the alternative.

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  44. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @Chuck Bird

    The overwhelming majority of sexual abuse is carried out within families by heterosexual offenders.

    As it happens, I have the NZ Corrections Department statistics for prisoners that have been jailed for sex offenses against children.

    You say that “One does not have to do the math to see that homosexual are greatly overrepresented in sexual abuse of minors”

    Actually we do have to do the math. Please tell us what you believe is the percentage of offenders who are jailed for sexually abusing male children in NZ.

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  45. Black with a Vengeance (1,715 comments) says:

    Post up them pedo abuse stats by ethnicity and gender if you got em then tristanb…cheers

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  46. Harriet (4,616 comments) says:

    Leave paedophiles alone – shoot the advocates instead!

    “minor-attracted persons” – Legitimising their poor behaviour under that same old tired lefty banner of being ‘more humane’.

    Supporters of this crap are plainly fucken sick!

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  47. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    What I AM saying is that just as homosexuality is a sexual orientation, so is paedophilia.

    David this is the premise upon which your whole argument rests. I don’t agree they are the same however, I see homosexuality as an orientation but I see paedophilia as a perversion in the same way BDSM is a perversion.
    A small sub-population of both homosexuals and straights are attracted to children, others are attracted to BDSM, etc etc. This is evidence to me that they are different dynamics.

    The evil of paedophilia is how could you deliberately do it. It really does take a special kind of sadist. Anyone whose been following the Saville case knows this evil spreads all over society. Saville and it’s eventual outcome is a mere tip of a very big iceburg. They’re throwing some big names to the wolves because they have to but those guys will never talk lest they immediately die but it goes much higher. This guy is clearly not connected to the organised bastards who use state-run facilities to source their victims from, he’s just a vicious amateur, clearly. But Saville illustrates the heights to where that perversion flourishes and it’s naive to imagine it’s not going on, right as we discuss this, all over the world, right now. Infuriatingly.

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  48. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    @gump

    I am not into silly games. If you have the figures show them. I will do the math then if you can’t.

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  49. Black with a Vengeance (1,715 comments) says:

    Cos you know tristanb, if this Elmers chap were Pasifikan, most of you cracka asses would be rabidly frothing at the sub human nature of his crime and attributing it to his ‘racial’ make up.

    But if we find kiddie fiddlers in our culture we tend to take the law into our own hands and that can act as a powerful deterrent.

    Something to be said for going all Jake the muss on your uncle bullies of the world.

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  50. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @Black with a Vengeance

    Child Sex Offenders in NZ by ethnicity (source = NZ Corrections Department, 2011)

    European 51%
    Maori 35%
    Pacific 13%
    Other 1%

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  51. SGA (959 comments) says:

    “whether the latter deviation is paedophilia, necrophilia, masochism or bestiality.”

    Is masochism illegal? Genuine question, no silly point scoring intended (and no, I don’t have a vested interest, just curious)

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  52. Fletch (6,150 comments) says:

    Reid, there is a growing voice by groups saying that pedophilia is indeed an orientation. eg –

    there is a growing conviction, notably in Canada, that paedophilia should probably be classified as a distinct sexual orientation, like heterosexuality or homosexuality. Two eminent researchers testified to that effect to a Canadian parliamentary commission last year, and the Harvard Mental Health Letter of July 2010 stated baldly that paedophilia “is a sexual orientation” and therefore “unlikely to change”.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jan/03/paedophilia-bringing-dark-desires-light

    Interestingly, it’s in Canada, where gay marriage is legal.
    You can follow the parliamentary exchanges here –

    http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?DocId=4959361&Language=E&Mode=1

    Mr. Marc Lemay (Abitibi—Témiscamingue, BQ):
        I will try to focus on this subject. I have to admit that I was not expecting, on this Valentine’s Day, to be talking about this inappropriate type of love. It is not really love. It has more to do with violence and control.
        I am concerned, Professor Van Gijseghem—and I know you well as I have heard you testify on a number of other subjects—because you say, if I am not mistaken, that pedophilia is a sexual orientation.
     
    Dr. Hubert Van Gijseghem:
        That is what I said.
     
    Mr. Marc Lemay:
        Should it therefore be compared to homosexuality?
     
    Dr. Hubert Van Gijseghem:
        Yes, or heterosexuality. If, for instance, you were living in a society where heterosexuality is proscribed or prohibited and you were told that you had to get therapy to change your sexual orientation, you would probably say that that is slightly crazy. In other words, you would not accept that at all.
        I use this analogy to say that, yes indeed, pedophiles do not change their sexual orientation.

    To be honest, I don’t know how one can say that homosexuality is an orientation, and pedophilia not.
    They either both are, or neither. Else, how can one sexual urge be an orientation, and the other not?

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  53. Keeping Stock (10,180 comments) says:

    I wonder how much of this kind of content is hidden away behind encryption at Dotcom’s Mega site…

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  54. Black with a Vengeance (1,715 comments) says:

    Cheers gump….as I imagined, over half.

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  55. cha (3,856 comments) says:

    I wonder how many businesses have the likes of Ellmers working for them ….

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  56. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    Gump, so there are more European child sex offenders than Maori?

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  57. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @Chuck Bird

    Yes – that is correct. But the ethnicity statistics are significantly different for sexual offenders with adult victims.

    For the sake of completeness:

    European 36%
    Maori 50%
    Pacific 11%
    Other 3%

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  58. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    I don’t know how one can say that homosexuality is an orientation, and pedophilia not.

    I gave you one reality that is that both homosexuals and straights engage in paedophilia. Homosexual orientation grosses the gambit of perversions, just like straights cross the gambit. In other words, for every single perversion you have a ratio of straights and a ratio of homoosexuals who engage in it, from paedophilia to BDSM to everything else. What would be interesting to know would be the ratio of homosexuals in each bucket, so we could see how paedophilia rates alongside other perversions. That would be evidence one way or the other.

    But to me this is the clincher as to why they are not the same thing. That you have one phenomena transcending the other by one phenomena occupying space in each sector of the other phenomena.

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  59. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    The age distributions are also interesting. Child sex offenders tend to be significantly older than sex offenders who target adult victims.

    40 and above / 56%
    30-39 years / 24%
    20-29 years / 16%
    Under 20 / 4%

    Having said that, there can be quite a lot of time between the offenses being committed and the convictions (compared to other crimes).

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  60. SGA (959 comments) says:

    @Reid “I gave you one reality that is that both homosexuals and straights engage in paedophilia.”

    Well, yes and no. It’s not that simple –

    As a medical diagnosis, paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest toward *prepubescent* children (generally age 11 years or younger, though specific diagnosis criteria for the disorder extends the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13).

    In popular usage, paedophilia means any sexual interest in children or the act of child sexual abuse, often termed “paedophilic behavior”… This common use application also extends to the sexual interest in and sexual contact with pubescent or post-pubescent minors.

    from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

    In other words, feeling attracted to your neighbour’s 14-year-old daughter isn’t quite the same as feeling attracted to her 4-year-old sister (I’m not advocating acting on either of those feelings, of course).

    To a certain extent, “exclusive” paedophiles could probably be thought of as outside the usual heterosexual or homosexual distinction.

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  61. Black with a Vengeance (1,715 comments) says:

    Any thoughts on why there is a greater propensity for old white men to fiddle with kids ?

    Nature, nurture, culture, genetics?

    If Maori have a greater propensity for violence due to a supposed ‘warrior’ gene , do Europeans have a greater propensity to sexually abuse children due to a ‘paedophile’ gene?

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  62. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    @ Gump,

    “The overwhelming majority of sexual abuse is carried out within families by heterosexual offenders.

    As it happens, I have the NZ Corrections Department statistics for prisoners that have been jailed for sex offenses against children.”

    Have you got those figures please?

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  63. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    To a certain extent, “exclusive” paedophiles could probably be thought of as outside the usual heterosexual or homosexual distinction.

    But I don’t understand how from your post. Yes the phenomena of extremes within a perversion is part of it’s nature as a phenomena. But so what? I mean yes, it does have that.

    But specifically how does that observation which I agree with, relate to my 3:23/57?

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  64. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    @BWaV
    You should learn some primary school statistics. Or at least look up the word “disproportionately” in the dictionary.

    35% of child sex offenders are Maori. Maori are 15% of the population. What does that tell you? Maybe the “warrior gene”?

    Actually, forget my initial comment about primary school statistics. You should stay as far away from schools as possible.

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  65. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    Fletch (3,865) Says:
    February 6th, 2013 at 3:12 pm

    Well then the stupid gay community need to wake up and cast these groups out.

    Pedophilia is a sickness and allowing groups to operate out there like this NAMBLA only worsens the gay community respect it has for community structure, if they continue then they need to be high lighted globally and teach the gay community to not touch certain or cruise below a certain age group because that is what it is. Old sharks cruising isn’t it? I’ve been around enough gays to know when a young male has a group of them all a flutter and i’ve seen the mover in a older gay with the look of glee on his face when came to a young male prospect.

    Anything written in support of NAMBLA is a facade, the true evil is the Indoctrinator who wants them young isn’t it? to create a thing for their own enjoyment.

    We should bring back Hanging to deter the dirtiness of men getting out of control.

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  66. Black with a Vengeance (1,715 comments) says:

    What it tells me tristanb, is that there are more kiddie fiddlers of Euro descent than Maori and more Europeans than Maori in NZ and a disproportionate amount of racist morons your family than mine.

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  67. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    Is masochism illegal? Genuine question, no silly point scoring intended (and no, I don’t have a vested interest, just curious)

    It’s okay for straight people, but illegal for gay people. Hang on, that’s marriage. Easy to confuse the two.

    Masochism is legal for all.

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  68. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    What it tells me tristanb, is that there are more kiddie fiddlers of Euro descent than Maori and more Europeans than Maori in NZ and a disproportionate amount of racist morons your family than mine.

    Well, you’re not very smart are you. Because that’s not what the numbers in my post say.

    They say that a random Maori adult has a higher chance of being a sex offender than a random white adult.

    It’s a fact.

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  69. Johnboy (15,586 comments) says:

    “there are more kiddie fiddlers of Euro descent than Maori”

    It’s just that shagging your family is par for the course among Murri Darkie as it was far too dangerous for the Bro’s to head off thru the bush to the next Pa for a fuck in case they got killed and eaten.

    So it is not regarded as a crime among the benighted folks. More a cultural thing! :)

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  70. Black with a Vengeance (1,715 comments) says:

    You’re right, I’m just extrapolating from incomplete data to assume there is a disproportionate amount of racist morons in your family.

    Some of you might not be racist :)

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  71. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    Sorry, typo:

    They say that a random Maori adult has a higher chance of being a child sex offender than a random white adult.

    Although my other statement is also true.

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  72. Black with a Vengeance (1,715 comments) says:

    Ooh let’s disregard the facts and play the probability game.

    So what is it that makes more european men choose to fiddle with kids?

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  73. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    But how come we’re ignoring the straights who also do this?

    How come it’s a “gay” problem?

    That’s just nuts.

    I once heard a senior cop make a very astute observation which was that porn is a drug. What porn does it moves you to other levels. When I was young Playboy was the only thing, Penthouse was barely starting, that was it. Now its available, sadly, to all.

    But the point is the more you watch it the more the “old” stuff get’s boring and over time you want more and different and this is precisely, precisely, what drugs do. This is changing our children, BTW. It shouldn’t be happening.

    However this kind of spectrum is also what perversions are about. A perversion is a spectrum of thinking. And it’s the thoughts that begat actions, not the other way round. You don’t do then think, you think, then you do. A perversion is a gradual series of more and more extreme fantasizing that sometimes at any point results in action. It’s driven by fantasy. And fantasy is driven by porn. And the extent to which one avoids or participates in that is limited only by one’s own moral structure, whatever that may be.

    That’s the origin of everyone’s place on any perversion spectra, from “not at all interested/simply repelled” to “completely obsessed with it 24/7/365″ and everyone has a place, on any of those spectra.

    But the whole point is this same principle covers both gays and straights, to equal degree. If you have data that proves otherwise, pray share it, because casual observation imagines both gays and straights inhabit each sector on the perversion scale in approximately the same proportion as they inhabit the general population.

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  74. Griff (6,997 comments) says:

    The same thing that makes maori beat ten times more kiddys to death we all have ferals
    just some are more feral than most

    Face it PBWWV there is no moral justification for the horrific rate of child abuse among the Polynesians
    Blaming white man predisposes that the abuse was lesser before whitey arrived.
    Not according to some new Zealand historians infanticide was practiced widely by maori.

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  75. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    “They say that a random Maori adult has a higher chance of being a sex offender than a random white adult.”

    The same logic applies to homosexuals and sex with minors. Although heterosexuals numerically offend at a higher rate due to the fact that homosexuals make up only 3% of the population their offending rate is a lot higher.

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  76. Johnboy (15,586 comments) says:

    At least they ate them afterwards Griff!

    Waste not want not Lad! :)

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  77. Griff (6,997 comments) says:

    nom nom nom…..burb

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  78. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    @Chuck Bird. Cool, so what are the stats? Also, the rate of male homosexuality is probably towards the higher side of 5-10%, not 3%.

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  79. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    Griff (4,196) Says:
    February 6th, 2013 at 6:00 pm

    Of course infanticide was practiced before colonization, it was a land of almost zero resources and then came the European who had the pig, goat, and the cow and horse and everything else it brought with them. Now i’m wondering what is the next wave of settlers to come here? What are they going to bring that will modify the local population existing here now?

    Who’s going to modify the old empire remnants?

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  80. Johnboy (15,586 comments) says:

    “What are they going to bring that will modify the local population existing here now?”

    Perhaps the Yuan Azeraph? :)

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  81. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    Reid (12,954) Says:
    February 6th, 2013 at 5:59 pm

    That’s a compelling post Reid.

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  82. Johnboy (15,586 comments) says:

    Reid (12,954) Says:
    February 6th, 2013 at 5:59 pm

    I have to admit Reid that as I get older I prefer to look at “Granny Porn”.

    The young stuff just upsets me as I recollect what I once looked like! :)

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  83. Johnboy (15,586 comments) says:

    No Yvette tonight so far? :)

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  84. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @Reid

    The problem with your argument is that sexual offending (per capita) has been steadily dropping in NZ since it peaked in the 1980s.

    So it would appear, if anything, that access to pornography is actually reducing the levels of sexual offending in our society.

    This observation has also been made in Japan – a country which is saturated with what is (by Western standards) fairly extreme pornography, yet has one of the lowest incidences of sexual offending in the World.

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  85. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    gump (453) Says:
    February 6th, 2013 at 6:35 pm

    Japan is still highly traditional socially, is there any other country that you can use that is similar to Nz?

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  86. Azeraph (603 comments) says:

    Johnboy (9,715) Says:
    February 6th, 2013 at 6:16 pm

    Come live in Auckland, that’s the best way to see it in action but to me these are colonists that want to stay, it’s the globalist population that want to roll in and roll out that have me worried. The global Locust

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  87. Johnboy (15,586 comments) says:

    Why would a rational man move to idiot Jafaland when he has paradise where he is Azeraph? :)

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  88. Johnboy (15,586 comments) says:

    “Japan – a country which is saturated with what is (by Western standards) fairly extreme pornography”

    They tend to pixelate the vital bits gump.

    Not that I would know of course! :)

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  89. Lance (2,565 comments) says:

    Oh good grief
    Stop feeding the BwaV troll.

    It dwells in a logic free zone with the sole purpose of finding an excuse to abuse and affront.

    I guess without this hobby it would have no purpose in life.

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  90. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    “@Chuck Bird. Cool, so what are the stats? Also, the rate of male homosexuality is probably towards the higher side of 5-10%, not 3%.”

    That why I could not be bothered searching the net.

    Where are your stats about male homosexuality – Kinsey?

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  91. David Garrett (6,775 comments) says:

    Coming back to where this all began, paedophilia, and our attitudes to it …

    I notice the scoffers have gone a little quiet now that the internal musings of NAMBLA – and even some psychiatrists for Christ’s sake – talking about “tolerance” and “childrens’ right to sexual expression” are revealed. Not quite so easy to say “oh it will never happen” now, is it chaps?

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  92. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    So you can’t back up your statement with facts. Well, at least you’re not flat-out denying facts like Vengeance is.

    You said “Although heterosexuals numerically offend at a higher rate due to the fact that homosexuals make up only 3% of the population their offending rate is a lot higher.”

    So did you just make that assertion up? I’m not saying it’s not true. But you’re not showing that it is, and I have no reason to believe it is true, other than your word. And you seem to have an agenda. (The anti-homosexual agenda.)

    Oh, and contrary to popular belief, there has actually been research on sexuality since Alfred Kinsey.

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  93. tropicana (79 comments) says:

    tristanb at 3:11 pm said … “Dirty old white men mostly” … a disproportionate amount of child abuse is committed by Maori on Maori children

    Just as important.

    Actually, child abuse is very rarely indeed committed by any old men.
    It is almost always committed by dirty young men.

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  94. tropicana (79 comments) says:

    And deny it all you want to, the statistics are clear. As shown just yesterday all over our news media as regards this very story we are discussing, gay men are far more likely proportionately than straight men, to be paedophiles. You might not like this fact, but deny it at the cost of our children, and our grandchildren.
    Personally, I think our children deserve better than to have a whole generation live in denial about child safety.
    This not to say that every gay man is a potential child molester. But a gay man is far more likely to be, than a straight man, all other things being equal. Ask any cop, not just me.

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  95. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @tropicana

    The statistics aren’t clear. This is the reason that you can’t produce any statistics to support your argument.

    Gay men are not more likely then straight men to be pedophiles. I’d recommend that you take you own advice and ask a cop – you might actually learn something.

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  96. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @David Garrett

    NAMBLA is on the lunatic fringe of the spectrum – it isn’t affiliated or accepted by any mainstream Gay rights associations.

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  97. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @tropicana

    Why did you state “Actually, child abuse is very rarely indeed committed by any old men.” ?

    This is categorically untrue. The 2011 NZ Corrections Department statistics show that 56% of child sex offenders are over 40 years old. The majority of child sex offenders are actually old men.

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  98. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    @tropicana

    I suggest you read Peter Davis’ book “Intimate details & Vital Statistics”. Check the table on page 62. It states in NZ 2.3% of males had same sex ever. The rates of perversion are higher in the US and the UK.

    I am not sure where Peter did his research in NZ. Some reckon Hagley Park but others say the Greenhouse. I suggest you ask him next time you see him. You could always ask Helen but I do not think she has seen too much of him lately.

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  99. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @Chuck Bird

    I have a copy of the book in front of me. The same-gender sex rates listed for the UK and US are 6.1% and 6.4% respectively.

    Why do you think there is such a difference between the reporting rates in NZ, the UK, and the US? I’d suggest that the actual figures are closer to the 6% level quoted for the UK and the US.

    As an amusing aside, the same table indicates that 20.4% of US Women have had anal sex during their lifetimes. This suggests that the overwhelming majority of anal sex takes place in heterosexual relationships.

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  100. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    ” I’d suggest that the actual figures are closer to the 6% level quoted for the UK and the US.”

    Firstly, why?

    Secondly, look at the definition – same sex ever. That could include a couple of teenagers jerking each other off once or even an underage boy having sex with someone much older. It sound like you believe what suit you.

    BTW – where are the figures you say you have relates to the sex of youths sexually abused underage?

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  101. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @Chuck Bird

    It’s generally accepted that the origins of homosexuality are biological. So it’s reasonable to infer that the incidence rates will be similar between the three countries.

    You told me earlier that you didn’t want the statistics. I’d suggest that you go and find them for yourself.

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  102. David Garrett (6,775 comments) says:

    gump @ 8.28: Oh really? So the quote in the post by Fletch at 3.07 is fake? The conference of psychiatrists in Canada referred to earlier also didn’t happen? Is all the evidence contained in this thread faked, or the supposed authors misquoted?

    Ponder this: When “gay lib” (of which I was once an honorary member) was established in NZ in the 70′s, if someone had said “Let these homos have the rights the rights they demand, the next thing they will all be demanding that they be allowed to get married” what do you think the liberal media of the day would have said? “Oh, don’t be ridiculous! Dont be such a bigot! All they want is not to be discriminated against…no-one would ever dream about demanding the right to marry…”

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  103. chiz (1,131 comments) says:

    Chuck:Estimates are that at least half as many boys are and the majority is done by men and men who sexually abuse boys particularly adolescent boys are by definition homosexuals.

    Still confused I see. Just because someone has sex with someone else of the same gender it doesn’t follow that they are homosexual, so your claim fails. Homosexuality refers to orientation.

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  104. tristanb (1,133 comments) says:

    gump:

    The 2011 NZ Corrections Department statistics show that 56% of child sex offenders are over 40 years old. The majority of child sex offenders are actually old men.

    Do you know how many commenters on this website you’re offending by calling those over 40 “old men”? :-D (Not me.)

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  105. chiz (1,131 comments) says:

    DG:The conference of psychiatrists in Canada referred to earlier also didn’t happen?

    Who cares? There are people with degrees in geology who think that the world was created in 6 days a few thousand years ago. There are people with degrees in history who think that the holocaust is a hoax. There are people with medical degrees who think that AIDS isn’t caused by a virus. Why should we be surprised if there a few psychiatrists who think wweird things about pedophilia. Indeed, given the large number of psychiatrists, its quite possible that some of them are pedophiles themselves and maybe this is why they showed up to the meeting.

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  106. chiz (1,131 comments) says:

    I’ve posted this link before but its obviously time to post it again:

    Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children’s hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% in which an adult molester could be identified – only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).

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  107. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @David Garrett

    I’m pleased to hear you supported gay liberation groups as a young man. Most of the Act people I’ve met have progressive views on civil rights.

    I can assure you that gays have been campaigning for marriage equality since before the 1970s, and I’m pleased to note that Western societies have progressed to the point where it has become a real possibility.

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  108. tropicana (79 comments) says:

    gump at 8:32 pm said: … This is categorically untrue … 56% of child sex offenders are over 40 years old. The majority of child sex offenders are actually old men.

    Fair enough for at least keeping me honest, but I disagree with your bottom line. I went from a similar source which as it turns out, matches the source that you referred me to.

    One says that the median age of child sex offenders is 41:  the other describes 41 as the mean age.

    Sorry, but like tristanb at 9.58pm, I didn’t think that age 41 would be envisaged as within the “dirty-old-man” image.

    The original moot was “dirty-old-men”. I’m inclined not to include 41-year-olds in my conceptualisation of “dirty old men”. Not even 51-year-olds. I think perhaps that “dirty-old-men” might include 61-year-olds, but I’m even reluctant to do this.

    So if we say that “dirty-old-men” are potentially 61 and above, then my point stands. There are a lot more dirty-men, who qualify as dirty-not-old-men, than might be conceptualised in the term, “dirty-old-men”.

    Perhaps in distinguishing between dirty old men and dirty young men, I left out another potential group of dirty middle-aged men. But these too fall outside of the original moot. Which was my original point. The concept of dirty-old-men being responsible for most child sex offending is clearly not a valid one. Certainly what is true is this:  A lot more old men, carry the stigma of being dirty old men, than most old men deserve.

    Let me put it another way round. Young people perceive wrongly that most old men are dirty old men. Few in fact are. Young people probably think that 75 percent of old men are dirty old men. Probably a more realistic number would be something well under one percent.

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  109. Black with a Vengeance (1,715 comments) says:

    The original moot was dirty old ‘white’ men. Of which at 41, you’re old enough to qualify, especially if you’re fiddling kids or shagging a consenting 16yr old…but hey, spin it how you like tropicana.

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  110. Fletch (6,150 comments) says:

    Family Research Institute founder and psychologist Paul Cameron, reviewing more than nineteen different academic reports and peer reviewed studies in a 1985 Psychological Reports article, found that homosexuals account for between 25% and 40% of all child molestation. Sex researchers Freund, Heasman, Racansky, and Glancy, for example, in an 1984 Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy article, put the number at 36%. Erickson, Walbek, Sely, in a 1988 Archives of Sexual Behavior article, places it at 86% when the children being molested are male.

    However, it should be noted that homosexuals account for only 2% of the population which statistically means that a child molester is ten to twenty times more likely to be homosexual than heterosexual. In other words, heterosexual molestations proportionally are a fraction compared to homosexual molestations. More recent studies confirm this statistic. In 2000, the Archives of Sexual Behavior published an article by seven sex researchers concluding that ‘‘around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys. Thus the rate of homosexual attraction is 6-20 times higher among pedophiles.” (48)

    In a 1992 study published in the Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy, sex researchers K. Freud and R. I. Watson found that homosexual males are three times more likely than straight men to engage in pedophilia and that the average pedophile victimizes between 20 and 150 boys before being arrested. (50)

    (48) R. Blanchard et al., Fraternal Order and Sexual Orientation in Pedophiles, 29
    ARCHIVES SEXUAL BEHAV. 463, 464 (2000).

    (50) K. Freund & R. I. Watson, The Proportions of Heterosexual and Homosexual
    Pedophiles Among Sex Offenders Against Children: An Exploratory Study, 18 J. SEX &
    MARITAL THERAPY 34, 34-43 (1992).

    http://www.steve-baldwin.com/articles/43-articles/184-child-molestation

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  111. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Just because someone has sex with someone else of the same gender it doesn’t follow that they are homosexual,

    Actually it does [follow] for most people and the announcements of social engineering academics will not change that fact.

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  112. MrLimerick (10 comments) says:

    I have read almost every issue of NZs gay newspapers for the last 20 years. I have NEVER read any article which condoned or supported pedophilia or sex with underage teens! Put up citations or just shut it please.

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  113. BlairM (2,307 comments) says:

    People who sell their children for sex usually do so for drug money. If they are paedophiles themselves, they’re probably happy to lend them out for free!

    Either way, there’s no way 5 years is an adequate sentence for someone like that. They should go away for a long time.

    As for the debate raging on this thread, consent is always the primary issue. It is widely accepted that children, by definition, cannot give satisfactory consent to sexual activity. One can disapprove of all manner of sexual perversions, but as long as there is consent, such behaviour should be left alone. I do not buy the argument that the government redefining marriage will contribute to further moral acceptance of sexual perversions where consent is questionable. The leap of logic is too great, since the gay marriage debate does not centre around consent but on whether this consensual behaviour should be afforded greater social acceptability.

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  114. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    @gump

    “It’s generally accepted that the origins of homosexuality are biological.”

    It’s generally accepted that the origins of homosexuality are biological by homosexual activists and liberals.

    http://www.mygenes.co.nz/download.htm

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  115. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    @MrLimerick

    have read almost every issue of NZs gay newspapers for the last 20 years. I have NEVER read any article which condoned or supported pedophilia or sex with underage teens! Put up citations or just shut it please.

    Have you ever read ads where men 30 or 40 + are looking for boys as young as 16?

    Have look at online dating site and you will not see similar ads.
    If I was hosting a party and some adult man of that age showed up with a 16 yo. He would not be welcome.

    If it was a homosexual party some homosexuals might feel the same as me would consider him as a chicken hawk similar to what men think of a man who might attract a much younger but adult woman.

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  116. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    Boy Scouts delay decision on admitting gays

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10863906

    This is just one of the reasons I oppose homosexual activists and their libertarian bed mates.

    Anyone does not think a 12 to 14 year old boy would not be at increased risks going on a camp with a homosexual Scout leader should not be a parent.

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  117. Judith (8,455 comments) says:

    My guess is that the father isn’t a pedophile himself, but more likely has a serious drug habit and will do anything for money.

    Most pedophiles do not ‘share’ their victim. They will share images etc, but when they get the ‘real’ thing, it is usually theirs alone.

    Two different clinics needed for these two.
    One can recover, and have to live with what he did to his son.

    The other won’t recover, and will always be a danger to innocent children. Pedophilia is not a disease that can be cured.

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  118. Judith (8,455 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird (2,992) Says:
    February 7th, 2013 at 8:29 am
    ————————–

    You are kidding?

    Most pedophiles are not homosexual. Just because they like little boys, doesn’t make them gay. They usually just like little children, either sex will do, but little boys are easier to get hold of, because parents will usually not suspect the same sex predator.

    It is time people started to brush up on their knowledge of pedophilia, and the behaviour of pedophiles. As long as people ignorantly blame homosexuality, for something that is a defiant and incurable ‘sickness’ and totally separate to homosexually, our children are going to continue to be victims.

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  119. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    Judith, your reading comprehension is just as poor on this thread as on those related to David Bain.

    I stated 12 to 14 year old boys. I doubt if you could find a case where a man has sex with both boys and girls of the age I mentioned.

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  120. Fletch (6,150 comments) says:

    A very recent (2000) study published
    in the Archives of Sexual Behavior
    found that “The best epidemiological
    evidence indicates that only 2-4% of
    men attracted to adults prefer men. In
    contrast, around 25-40% of men attracted
    to children prefer boys. Thus,
    the rate of homosexual attraction is 6-
    20 times higher among pedophiles.”

    ~ Ray Blanchard, et al. “Fraternal Birth Order
    and Sexual Orientation in Pedophiles.” Archives of
    Sexual Behavior, Volume 29, Number 5 (2000),
    pages 463 to 478.
    6A. Zebulon, Z.A.

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  121. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @Chuck Bird

    The link you posted is hilarious.

    The person who runs the mygenes.co.nz website is Dr Neil Whitehead (who is not actually a medical doctor – he has a PhD).

    Neil Whitehead is a contributing member of NARTH (the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality).

    For those that don’t know, NARTH is a highly controversial American organistation that claims to be able to convert gays into straights. Their views have been rejected by all mainstream psychological and psychiatric organisations. The wiki article on NARTH sums up the situation perfectly:

    “No major mental health professional organization has sanctioned efforts to change sexual orientation and most of them have adopted policy statements cautioning the profession and the public about treatments that purport to change sexual orientation. These include the American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American Counseling Association, National Association of Social Workers in the USA, Royal College of Psychiatrists, and Australian Psychological Society.

    The American Psychological Association and the Royal College of Psychiatrists expressed concerns that the positions espoused by NARTH are not supported by science and create an environment in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish.”

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  122. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @Fletch

    Who are you quoting? Are you too embarrassed to post your sources?

    The Blanchard paper made no assessment of the adult sexual attraction of the offenders that were profiled:

    “Blanchard et al. (2000). Fraternal birth order and sexual orientation in pedophiles. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 29, 463-478.

    This study categorized convicted sex offenders according to whether they molested or reported sexual attraction to boys only, girls only, or both boys and girls. These groups were labeled, respectively, homosexual pedophiles, heterosexual pedophiles, and bisexual pedophiles. This classification referred to their attractions to children. Adult sexual orientation (or even whether the men had an adult sexual orientation) wasn’t assessed.”

    http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

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  123. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    “The link you posted is hilarious.”

    Your response is to me.

    You are claiming that a bisexual who wants so get married and have committed marriage is wasting his time trying to stop have extra marital sex.

    How about a bisexual who wants to preserve his marriage you think he is also wasting his time?

    In any case that is a side issue. You adopt a common homosexual tactic of personal attacks rather than the issue.

    Dr Neil Whitehead has a PhD in biochemistry not homophobia.
    The theory that people are born either heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual is nonsense.

    Like nearly all human behaviours there is a strong element of free will. When you are able to develop a blood test that can tell whether a person is heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual I will take you seriously.

    You like global warming alarmist are trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

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  124. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    @gump

    I can accept that in the case of perverts who have sex only with young children as opposed to teenagers it may be unfair to label that according to the sex of their victims.

    However, to claim that a man who sex with an underage teenage boy is not either a homosexual or bisexual is plain nonsense I wonder if you libertarian friends but that spin.

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  125. chiz (1,131 comments) says:

    Chuck:It’s generally accepted that the origins of homosexuality are biological by homosexual activists and liberals.

    http://www.mygenes.co.nz/download.htm

    It is generally accepted by the scientific community, not just activists, that homosexuality has a biological origin. The book you keep citing isn’t reliable. Its clear in the first chapter that the author has a mediocre understanding of genetics. His book misrepresents facts, misunderstands definitions, and omits studies that contradict his position.

    When you are able to develop a blood test that can tell whether a person is heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual I will take you seriously.

    Seriously? What does blood have to do with this? There are lots of genetic and biological conditions for which we don’t have blood tests – think left-handedness or multiple sclerosis for example.

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  126. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I checked out the NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association)

    It included a memorial write-up for Tom Reeves. The founder of this paedophile club. He campaigned for the “age of consent” to be removed entirely.

    Born in Nashville, Tennessee, in 1939, Tom was ordained a Methodist minister and pastored a church in Blue Springs, Alabama, while attending Birmingham Southern College, from which he graduated in 1960. He went on to get a Master’s of Divinity from Harvard in 1963 and an MA from American University in 1964.

    “As an ordained Methodist minister since his teens, Reeves always lived his life according to the highest Christian ideals,”

    http://www.nambla.org/tom_reeves.html

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  127. Black with a Vengeance (1,715 comments) says:

    Ewwww…dirty old white man!!!

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8274987/Journalist-admits-child-abuse-charges

    Off with his nuts!!!

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  128. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    He was found with 1000 child-pornography images on his computer, which he had viewed on the internet, and three videos he had made.

    He had admitted three charges of making intimate visual recordings and 40 charges of possessing objectionable publications – images and stories.

    One video showed a student at her home, one was videoed up the skirt of a 5-year-old girl at a church expo …

    He is described as a veteran newspaper and radio journalist and South Island editor of Challenge Weekly, a non-denominational and independent Christian newspaper.

    Seems to be a pattern here, but I can not quite pick it…

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  129. nasska (10,910 comments) says:

    Kea

    I wonder if I can help…..

    Does “In the name of the Father, the Son & the Holy Ghost let me see your bottom” ring any bells?

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  130. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    nasska, to be fair, with their leader Graham Capill locked up, many would have no guidance on matters of morality. The Christian Heritage Party was very big on sexual morality.

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  131. Fletch (6,150 comments) says:

    gump, you can read the excerpt from the paper yourself here. Luckily, it’s part of the Introduction of the paper, so you don’t have to pay to download –

    http://business.highbeam.com/435395/article-1G1-65486790/fraternal-birth-order-and-sexual-orientation-pedophiles

    The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2-4% of men attracted to adults prefer men (ACSF Investigators, 1992; Billy et al., 1993; Fay et al., 1989; Johnson et al., 1992); in contrast, around 25-40% of men attracted to children prefer boys (Blanchard et al., 1999; Gebhard et al., 1965; Mohr et al., 1964). Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6-20 times higher among pedophiles.

    My “source” is the paper itself. So I’m not sure what question you’re asking.

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  132. nasska (10,910 comments) says:

    Capill certainly took a few of the gullible faithful for a ride…..while the parents had their eyes off the ball, hand wringing & waffling about abortion & degeneracy, dear old trusty Graham was fiddling their kids.

    Must be a lesson to be learnt somewhere there.

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  133. Fletch (6,150 comments) says:

    ps, gump I note that the ‘source” of your comment has “rainbow” in the URL, which supposes a certain bias as well.

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  134. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @Fletch

    Since you seem determined to ignore it, the major problem with that paper is:

    “Adult sexual orientation (or even whether the men had an adult sexual orientation) wasn’t assessed.”

    The source that I am quoting is a website by Gregory M. Herek – an internationally renowned Professor of Psychology at the University of California at Davis (UCD). Here is a link to his biography:

    http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/bio.html

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  135. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    Must be a lesson to be learnt somewhere there.

    There’s a great lesson in there: Don’t judge a book by it’s cover.

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  136. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    It certainly appears this dude is a homosexual rights lobbyist.

    http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/bibliography.html

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  137. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    He’s an openly gay research psychologist.

    Would you expect him to argue against civil rights for homosexuals?

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  138. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    No, but I would take as much notice of his “research” as you do of others who may be Christian.

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  139. gump (1,553 comments) says:

    @Chuck Bird

    I do take notice of Christians. Having been raised in a Christian household, I am no stranger to Christian teachings.

    I was raised to believe that it is solely for God to determine whether – and to what extent – a person acquires guilt before God.

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