General Debate 28 February 2013

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Lance

On no, think of the poor snails.
Pike River might become an open cast mine

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10868232
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February 28, 2013 8:20am
Elaycee

Great news for petrol heads with the confirmation that all Australian V8Supercar races for the next 5 years will be shown live by Sky TV – starting with the live telecast of the Clipsal 500 from Adelaide this weekend.

This is excellent news, as it means we will no longer have to endure the crap served up by TV3 and passed off as motorsport coverage. In particular, this move to Sky means there will no longer be a stream of cringe worthy, ill informed comments from the motor racing wannabe Shaun Summerfield. Indeed, Summerfield has been to televised motorsport what Eddie the Eagle has been to the medal winners list at the Winter Olympics. Eddie didn’t make it either.

And for the interested viewer, this move to Sky means there’ll be no more captions on screen claiming ‘live’ racing when patently much of it is not live at all. No more breaking away from the Bathurst telecast for ‘TV3 News’ when the biggest tin top race in Australasia is reaching the pointy end and someone is rapidly closing in on the lead. No more races shown at 11pm Sunday night. And the list goes on…..

Yup, this is excellent news all round. 😀

http://www.skysport.co.nz/article/motorsport/headlines/sky-tv-announces-five-year-v8-supercars-deal-63788/
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February 28, 2013 8:26am
iMP

Some more thoughts on the Changes to the Redef. Marriage Bill. Not sure Bob McC is right on some of this.

http://conzervative.wordpress.com/2013/02/27/thoughts-redefinition-of-marriage-bill-changes
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February 28, 2013 8:33am
Judith

Elaycee (3,330) Says:
February 28th, 2013 at 8:26 am
——————————-

Excellent news and about time. The TV3 coverage was shocking.
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February 28, 2013 8:34am
kowtow

Lance,the open cast snails article says it all.

Labour ,who proudly proclaim their roots in the industrial mining on the West Coast ,now oppose it.
It shows that Labour is not the party of the working man but the party of middle class academics,so called intellectuals,chardonnay socialists and a misfit of homosexual ,ethnic and environmentalist activists.

Not a cloth cap in sight.
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February 28, 2013 8:35am
joana

David,
It was interesting to hear you speaking about your speech difficulties on National radio yesterday..It was great you could meet up with your therapist.
Your concern re the separation of church and state seemed rather ironic in that the greatest threat world wide to the separation of religion and state is the advance of islam and its demands that we all be subject to sharia law. An islamic school in sth Australia is trying to force its non muslim female staff to wear hijabs. If they do not comply, they face the sack.
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February 28, 2013 8:41am
flipper

Just 48 years and (almost) one month since my surf life saving buddy, Leslie Jordon, was tasken by a great white at St Clair. And that bastard Carter introduced regulations to protect them. Bet that poor Auckland family are not too keen on Carter’s regs.

I will continue to regard them as rabid killers and deal accordingly. Carter’s dip shit regs can join him in New York where I hope he meets some great whites (at the UN).
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February 28, 2013 8:41am
WineOh

To be fair, Labour has been relatively consistent in recent times about not mining in sensitive conservation areas and national parks. I would probably prefer they don’t mine in a national park too, but am in favour of what is best for the NZ economy and especially the folk of the West Coast.
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February 28, 2013 8:42am
ex-golfer

Another day, another sob story: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8361477/Low-income-people-have-nowhere-to-go
Somehow I don’t think that “Waitakere Man and Woman” will have much sympathy for this ex-criminal and his breeding partner.
Crime doesn’t pay.
And having more kids doesn’t fix the problem either.
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February 28, 2013 8:45am
iMP

The only successful separation of church and state, has been Stalin and Hitler. “separation” is a myth and relates to the recent assumption by secularists that they are the neutral default setting, when in fact religion has been man’s default setting for all history.

Religion informs civil society, restrains excess, modifies carnality and evil, and helps the poor, weak, inform and helpless which secularism forgets.
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February 28, 2013 8:52am
flipper

Why Real Men watch Fox News. 🙂

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNj0T4uK3lE
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February 28, 2013 8:57am
joana

Islam does not restrain excess or limit evil..It also does not do much for the poor..but then it is not a religion; rather it is an arab , male ,supremacist cult.
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February 28, 2013 8:59am
ex-golfer

ex-golfer wonders if we can have just one GD without the marriage debate or climate change…………….obviously not.
Thank God for the scroll key.
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February 28, 2013 9:01am
barry

joana (1,637) Says:
February 28th, 2013 at 8:41 am

You cant say things like that – having a go at the muslims………its just not fair……

Thats as bad as Prosser suggesting that theyre philosophical dinasours.
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February 28, 2013 9:03am
CHFR

ex-golfer they are not getting alot of sympathy in the comments.
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February 28, 2013 9:17am
iMP

People who blame religion for all the world’s excesses, always brain-block the excesses of the non-religious fanatics (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc). It’s not a religious problem its a HUMAN problem. About as smart as blaming “race” for anything.
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February 28, 2013 9:18am
Andrei

Religion forms peoples morality, charity, empathy, compassion and care for one another by changing their hearts. And these qualities all go into building a Nation which is a better place to live.

All secularists have is legislation and you cannot make people decent by forcing them to be good and decent with the heavy hand of the law. What you end up is with what we a getting a disunited, degenerate people who are at each others throats all the time.
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February 28, 2013 9:28am
Yvette

An islamic school in Australia is trying to force its non muslim female staff to wear hijabs. If they do not comply, they face the sack.
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February 28, 2013 9:32am
Kea

All secularists have is legislation and you cannot make people decent by forcing them to be good and decent with the heavy hand of the law.

You can not make them decent people by forcing religious law upon them either Andrei.
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February 28, 2013 9:44am
iMP

Yvette, that will never happen. Aussie blokeness will descend on that school like a horde of Black Hawk helicopters and fix that aberration. In NZ however, the State will probably provide the hijabs, made in pakistan, of recyclaable sack.
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February 28, 2013 9:44am
Kea

Islam does not restrain excess or limit evil..It also does not do much for the poor..but then it is not a religion; rather it is an arab , male ,supremacist cult.

It is an old testament based religion and came from the same place as christianity and judaism. All are primitive desert cults from another time and another place.
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February 28, 2013 9:47am
Lance

@Kea
You are making sweeping and ignorant generalizations with fact free assertions.

Apart from that sound reasoning.
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February 28, 2013 9:51am
Harriet

“…..We consider that transgender people should be able to change sex
without being subject to these constraints…..” – from the Marriage reform select committee report.

You can’t swap your chromesones for the opposite sexe’s – as it is impossable. And that is what biologicly, is the differance between male and female. Other things of course are too, but it is a ‘chromesone test’ which legally defines you as male or female[ remember that African runner having to have one].

Parliment will need to change this to ‘gender reconstruction’ instead of ‘sex change’.

The government cannot put ‘male’ instead of ‘female’ on a drivers license, passport, Marriage licence etc, as the courts, police, customs, JP’s etc are legally bound to NOT accept what is KNOWN as an absolute lie for an absolute truth. It is of course for legal reasons: The rule of law.

This will also create problems internationaly with the likes of interpol etc.

How they missed that is fucken beyond me – from memory, it’s taught at form 1-2 level. What was the schools budget again? 😎
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February 28, 2013 9:51am
Chthoniid

Religion is an ancient and obsolete human attempt at discovery and explanation. We don’t need the values and explanations of the bronze-age to inform modern society. Most religions have already extinct. Xtianity is dying in the West. In no western secular country has this decline been reversed. Rather it is accelerating as those identifying as ‘not religious’ or ‘atheist’ have become the fastest growing demographic.

Trying the mudslinging and fallacious tactic of conflating of secularism with Marxist totalitarianism isn’t going to avert this.
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February 28, 2013 9:53am
Andrei

You can not make them decent people by forcing religious law upon them either Andrei.

See that’s the thing you don’t understand about the Christian Faith, it is voluntary, that pesky free will thing. You are free to do whatever you want but there will be consequences for whatever your choices are.

This is where it differs significantly from Islam which uses the law and dire punishments.

Saudi Arabia has an Islamic Heritage

New Zealand has a Christian Heritage

Which one would you prefer to live in?

Secularists by eliminating the Wests Christian Heritage are creating a vacuum for it to be replaced by an Islamic one
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February 28, 2013 9:58am
kowtow

Ex golfer,redefining marriage / increased taxation climate change.

The people advocating “equality” re marriage and those pushing climate change are a small group of radical activists (with many joining the band wagon out of self interest or ignorance).

If you are happy to allow your society to be led by the nose ,with no debate (or even popular mandate) for major changes in our culture and way of life then perhaps you should return silently,passively to the golf course.
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February 28, 2013 9:58am
Harriet

Here’s an example of how gay Marriage has demoted fathers in society!

Status of Children Act 1969 (1969 No 18)
In section 14(1), definition of partner, replace “husband” with
“spouse” in each place.

But no mention at all in that section of replacing ‘mother’ with spouse. That’s very unusual if we are to believe it is all about ‘equality’ – are men now being demoted?
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February 28, 2013 10:03am
Weihana

joana (1,638) Says:
February 28th, 2013 at 8:41 am

…the greatest threat world wide to the separation of religion and state is the advance of islam and its demands that we all be subject to sharia law. An islamic school in sth Australia is trying to force its non muslim female staff to wear hijabs. If they do not comply, they face the sack.

Not that I’m a fan of Sharia, but you are referring to an “Islamic school”. Why is it objectionable that they expect dress codes in line with their own standards? Would you object if a nudist teacher was fired from a public school because the teacher didn’t want to wear clothes? Is it unfair to “force” nudists to comply with such dress standards?

Of course, the nudist is a crazy person and we all know that western dress standards were handed down by God at the beginning of time and people who prefer more modest clothing are crazy people as are those who prefer to wear nothing at all. The world revolves around western tastes does it not? 🙂
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February 28, 2013 10:07am
kowtow

And the values of “modern society ” are equality and human rights.

Look at how far the EU has got with those values.A superstate that denies it’s citizens a democratic say in how they are ruled.

Hypocritical bullshit and lies. A smokescreen to impose the will of the elite on the majority who do value their Christian and European culture.

An angry undercurrent is building and the results will be ugly.
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February 28, 2013 10:07am
Harriet

Here’s another example where it looks like men have been DEMOTED IN SOCIETY as again their is no mention of ‘wife’ to spouse.

Crimes Act 1961 (1961 No 43)
In section 24(3), replace “husband” with “spouse”.

However this maybe where a wife is laying a complaint with the police about being bashed by her husband.

SOoooo that’s very telling, the select committee is expecting ‘butch bitches’ to belt THEIR female ‘wifes’.

And we have been told for 40yrs that it is MEN who do ALL the BEATING of WOMEN in MARRIAGES !

But Gay women are violent TOO says the government! hahhahahh 😎
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February 28, 2013 10:15am
kowtow

harriet @951

The rule of law. That’s why A Bolt calls it “lawfare”. Where the activists use the law to overturn nature ,common sense ,tradition etc.

In Europe the Human Rights courts tell sovereign governments to amend historic documnets in the name of human rights!

See the Foy case in Ireland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism

Utter madness.

When the Muslims take over in Europe there’ll be a lot of beheadings as this “equality and human rights ” nonsense is most un Koranic behaviour.
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February 28, 2013 10:16am
Flyingkiwi9

You guys are forgetting what secularists have above all else – the correct answer. The ability to think rationally given facts. The ability to be open minded on new ideas and ways of thinking.
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February 28, 2013 10:20am
Judith

;Andrei (1,877) Says:
February 28th, 2013 at 9:28 am
Religion forms peoples morality, charity, empathy, compassion and care for one another by changing their hearts.

Are you suggesting that a person without religious belief has no morals, isn’t charitable, displays no compassion and cannot feel empathy, and doesn’t care for others?

To be honest, I have found the people who display all those qualities tend not to be religious, and that those who are, tend to be judgmental, intolerant of diversity, only give with ‘conditions’, only have compassion for like minded people (exception Salvation Army) and provide ‘care with rules’.

How is the attitude displayed towards homosexuals consistent with the ’empathy and compassion’ criteria?
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February 28, 2013 10:20am
Fletch

Going along with the topic, a very good read is by Matthew Parris in The Times, who has an article titled, “As an atheist, I truly believe Africa needs God”

Before Christmas I returned, after 45 years, to the country that as a boy I knew as Nyasaland. Today it’s Malawi, and The Times Christmas Appeal includes a small British charity working there. Pump Aid helps rural communities to install a simple pump, letting people keep their village wells sealed and clean. I went to see this work.

It inspired me, renewing my flagging faith in development charities. But travelling in Malawi refreshed another belief, too: one I’ve been trying to banish all my life, but an observation I’ve been unable to avoid since my African childhood. It confounds my ideological beliefs, stubbornly refuses to fit my world view, and has embarrassed my growing belief that there is no God.

Now a confirmed atheist, I’ve become convinced of the enormous contribution that Christian evangelism makes in Africa: sharply distinct from the work of secular NGOs, government projects and international aid efforts. These alone will not do. Education and training alone will not do. In Africa Christianity changes people’s hearts. It brings a spiritual transformation. The rebirth is real. The change is good.

I used to avoid this truth by applauding – as you can – the practical work of mission churches in Africa. It’s a pity, I would say, that salvation is part of the package, but Christians black and white, working in Africa, do heal the sick, do teach people to read and write; and only the severest kind of secularist could see a mission hospital or school and say the world would be better without it. I would allow that if faith was needed to motivate missionaries to help, then, fine: but what counted was the help, not the faith.

But this doesn’t fit the facts. Faith does more than support the missionary; it is also transferred to his flock. This is the effect that matters so immensely, and which I cannot help observing.

First, then, the observation. We had friends who were missionaries, and as a child I stayed often with them; I also stayed, alone with my little brother, in a traditional rural African village. In the city we had working for us Africans who had converted and were strong believers. The Christians were always different. Far from having cowed or confined its converts, their faith appeared to have liberated and relaxed them. There was a liveliness, a curiosity, an engagement with the world – a directness in their dealings with others – that seemed to be missing in traditional African life. They stood tall.

At 24, travelling by land across the continent reinforced this impression. From Algiers to Niger, Nigeria, Cameroon and the Central African Republic, then right through the Congo to Rwanda, Tanzania and Kenya, four student friends and I drove our old Land Rover to Nairobi.

We slept under the stars, so it was important as we reached the more populated and lawless parts of the sub-Sahara that every day we find somewhere safe by nightfall. Often near a mission.

Whenever we entered a territory worked by missionaries, we had to acknowledge that something changed in the faces of the people we passed and spoke to: something in their eyes, the way they approached you direct, man-to-man, without looking down or away. They had not become more deferential towards strangers – in some ways less so – but more open.

MORE – http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/matthewparris/article2044345.ece
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February 28, 2013 10:23am
Harriet

The select committee is being ‘prejudiced’ if they believe a ‘future’ ‘gay wife’ is going to be violent.

There is no evidence to support that view as we don’t yet have ‘gay marriage’. The statistics are zero.

C’mon gays – start saying to the select committee what you’ve being saying to us:

BIGOTS! HOMOPHOBES! NUTTERS!

Hold on…on the tv news…….. lesos are ALWAYS angry! 😎
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February 28, 2013 10:26am
graham

@ Chthoniid at 9:53 am.

To me, too much emphasis is placed on “Religion”. I am a Christian. Why? Because I truly believe there is a God, that Jesus Christ exists, came to earth, died for our sins, etc. I won’t bore you with why, but I assure you it’s not just blindly following a faith.

I try and live my life as I believe a Christian man should. Does that make me “religious”? I don’t know, and I really don’t care. Is the Christian religion dying? If I truly believe in God, in Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit, then on one plane that doesn’t really matter to me. It still won’t change what I believe.

Ultimately, what is the point of a “religion”? To have an organised method of following “something”. To worship, to discuss beliefs, to meet other like-minded people. At it’s most basic, it’s a club, like a classic car club or a stamp collector’s club. But the point is, the “something” you follow in a religion must exist. Otherwise – what’s the point? Over 53,000 people listed themselves as Jedi in New Zealand’s 2001 census, which would make it the second largest religion in New Zealand. But really, what’s the point? Do they believe in The Force? Really? If not, it’s just a game.

Ultimately, what matters to me is that I truly believe in God, in Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit. “Religion” is a convenient way of formalising that belief, I guess, but it comes a rather distant second.
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February 28, 2013 10:32am
Weihana

iMP (1,075) Says:
February 28th, 2013 at 8:52 am

The only successful separation of church and state, has been Stalin and Hitler. “separation” is a myth and relates to the recent assumption by secularists that they are the neutral default setting, when in fact religion has been man’s default setting for all history.

“recent” as in a couple hundred years ago starting with the enlightenment… about the same time humanity awoke from the doldrums of dark-age ignorance and poverty to spawn the greatest expansion in human prosperity and knowledge humanity has ever known.

But regarding Stalin and Hitler… First, lets quote Hitler himself From Mein Kampf:

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

Now Stalin did renounce religion though he was raised in a very religious household and spent five years at a Greek Orthodox seminary. He also returned to Christianity later in life, as biographer Edvard Radinsky notes “During his mysterious retreat [of June 1941] the ex-seminarist had decided to involve the aid of the God he had rejected”. Stalin was also surrounded by people who were also religious so it is rather absurd to portray the communist regime as some sort of atheistic organization.

Indeed the fact that Hitler was religious does not mean religion is to blame for his actions.

Religion informs civil society…

No, no, no. Religion doesn’t inform anything as it doesn’t provide knowledge. Knowledge is the set of true beliefs and since religion is based on faith one cannot ascertain whether or not any particular religious belief is true or not.

…restrains excess, modifies carnality and evil, and helps the poor, weak, inform and helpless which secularism forgets.

Nonsense. Ethics exist independently of religion and indeed I would argue ethics are improved in the absence of religion. Ethics only have true meaning when derived from reason rather than blind faith and obedience. Moreover, it is strange how modern secularist society doesn’t help the poor and weak in your view yet standards of living in modern western secularist nations is higher in modern times than ever before. Living standards of the poor today would be the envy of anyone living 100-200 years ago. Somehow religion dominating “for all history” and helping the poor and weak never seemed to address their standard of living in 10000 years of agricultural civilization. Only recently has this picture changed and yet it is recent changes that you abhor.
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February 28, 2013 10:38am
Weihana

Andrei (1,877) Says:
February 28th, 2013 at 9:58 am

See that’s the thing you don’t understand about the Christian Faith, it is voluntary, that pesky free will thing. You are free to do whatever you want but there will be consequences for whatever your choices are.

So go ahead and suggest the Earth revolves around the Sun… but just remember there will be consequences like you being locked in your house for the rest of your life. It’s all about that “free will thing”. 🙂
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February 28, 2013 10:44am
Andrei

LOL Weihana the “Age of Enlightenment” was ushered in by the “Reign of Terror” where madam guillotine operated every day all day while it separated the heads from the bodies of about 17,000 French citizens as well as numerous other examples of people meeting their ends in violent ways in the name of “enlightenment”.
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February 28, 2013 10:44am
Weihana

graham (1,692) Says:
February 28th, 2013 at 10:32 am

@ Chthoniid at 9:53 am.

To me, too much emphasis is placed on “Religion”. I am a Christian. Why? Because I truly believe there is a God, that Jesus Christ exists, came to earth, died for our sins, etc. I won’t bore you with why, but I assure you it’s not just blindly following a faith.

Not blind faith? You have evidence then that stands up to scientific scrutiny? or did God whisper in your ear?
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February 28, 2013 10:45am
thedavincimode

ex-golfer

Scrolling thru the insightful contributions from the usual suspects (those with G** on their sleeves and hate in their hearts) would tend to suggest that the scroll key isn’t sufficient. Coming to GD actually requires deployment of Ctrl + End. Fortunately Griff appears to be still sleeping it off so AGW has yet to poke it’s head up.

The only flicker of amusement so far is the inference from Andrei that he practices morality, charity, empathy, compassion

You have been witnessing the movement of GD and indeed this blog generally down the toilet. After today’s efforts from the faithful zealots, it is safe to assume that GD itself has now moved safely past the ‘S’ bend.
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February 28, 2013 10:47am
kowtow

The Dark Ages were anything but dark.

Look at the ignorance and poverty in this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ardagh_chalice.jpg
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February 28, 2013 10:47am
Harriet

“…See that’s the thing you don’t understand about the Christian Faith, it is voluntary, that pesky free will thing. You are free to do whatever you want but there will be consequences for whatever your choices are….”

I’d love to hear the religions all announce together to the State –

“We are closing everything up for JUST 2 months for ‘renewal’. Starting at 6am tommorrow.”

Other than all government services being in a state of emergency – when the doors re-opened in 2 months there would be 1,000 times too many to fit in.

I heard that being said by a former Commanding Officer of an Australian Govt ‘service’.[more or less in those words]
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February 28, 2013 10:51am
kowtow

hahahaha

dawinci is so immersed in Judeo Christian culture he can’t avoid it. …….who were the Zealots?
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February 28, 2013 10:51am
Weihana

graham (1,692) Says:
February 28th, 2013 at 10:32 am

Over 53,000 people listed themselves as Jedi in New Zealand’s 2001 census, which would make it the second largest religion in New Zealand. But really, what’s the point? Do they believe in The Force? Really?

Hilarious. “The Force”.. now that’s just crazy talk.. but talking snakes and virgin birth… that’s eminently reasonable!
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February 28, 2013 10:51am
krazykiwi

… those with G** on their sleeves and hate in their hearts

The most hateful comments around here are those directed at Christians, day after day, after day.
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February 28, 2013 10:54am
Kea

Lance (1,750) Says:

February 28th, 2013 at 9:51 am
@Kea
You are making sweeping and ignorant generalizations with fact free assertions.

So are you telling us that christianity did not come form the Middle East and is totally different from Islam ?

The bible is a dark and ignorant book. Fortunately most of its followers chose to ignore the clear words of the bible and do the right thing.
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February 28, 2013 10:56am
Weihana

krazykiwi,

Hateful eh? Of course you don’t include in your assessment those who say or imply that one cannot be moral or ethical without religion. Secularists like myself are apparently prone to excess, to evil, we care not for the poor and are on a par with the likes of Stalin and Hitler… but no… all the angst is directed towards the poor old Christian who bruises at the mere suggestion that their beliefs are of questionable rationality.
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February 28, 2013 10:58am
Harriet

“….Going along with the topic, a very good read is by Matthew Parris in The Times, who has an article titled, “As an atheist, I truly believe Africa needs God”…’

Parris is actually on record for saying that Christians should all go back to their Churches as the alternative is dire. He said himself that he isn’t Christian but for those who are, they should return.He is also gay.

I think it was Mark Steyn who wrote it up.
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February 28, 2013 10:58am
Dean Papa

Only real sad men watch fox news.

here’s Bill Maher on con-men Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity …

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL2xokWRS_c
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February 28, 2013 11:01am
Harriet

“….Now a confirmed atheist, I’ve become convinced of the enormous contribution that Christian evangelism makes in Africa: sharply distinct from the work of secular NGOs, government projects and international aid efforts. These alone will not do….”

The likes of Labour and the Green’s and all their ‘feel good’ policy wouldn’t pick up the slack in NZ either.
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February 28, 2013 11:01am
Weihana

kowtow (3,741) Says:
February 28th, 2013 at 10:47 am

The Dark Ages were anything but dark…

So why don’t you renounce your modern conveniences and enjoy the wonders of life in the dark ages?
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February 28, 2013 11:02am
emmess

Typical scummy teachers union

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-21597680
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February 28, 2013 11:05am
krazykiwi

Weihana – nothing in your 10:58 invalidate my opinion of 10:54.

If you want to try a ‘relative balance of hate’ justification you’ll need to start again with that as a stated objective.

FWIW, I regard any explicit claims that someone is ‘hateful’ because of their Christian faith as a large, clear mirror. And after his 10:47, DVM is admiring his reflection.
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February 28, 2013 11:06am
Chthoniid

Secularism isn’t killing Christianity. Secularism is neutral on the survival of that religion.

What’s killing it is education, its failures to live up to its promises and the wounds inflicted on it by its own adherents.
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February 28, 2013 11:07am
ex-golfer

@ davinci
I’m going to suggest to DPF that we have a daily GD thread for, you know, general debate on current topics.
Then he can have a separate daily thread for debate on marriage (and therefore the virtues or otherwise of religion) and climate change.
The arguments are getting very boring.
KB will slowly lose its interest.
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February 28, 2013 11:09am
Wayne91

Andrei (1,878) Says: “See that’s the thing you don’t understand about the Christian Faith, it is voluntary, that pesky free will thing. You are free to do whatever you want but there will be consequences for whatever your choices are.”

Andrei – is it voluntary for a four year to brainwashed into thinking that God will protect her only if she believes, bows and scrapes to God? Forced to attend church, forced to listen to religious music, forced to watch religious TV.
Personally – I think that is not voluntary and borders on child abuse. I’m sure im not the only one that sees this happening.
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February 28, 2013 11:13am
Andrei

ex-golfer marriage is a “current topic” it is being radically re-defined in Parliament as we speak.

Or are we only allowed to discuss topics that you agree we should be allowed to talk about?
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February 28, 2013 11:15am
Lance

@Kea
The Bible established a code of conduct with the 10 commandments, established rights for the underprivileged, codes of conduct for slave owners and release of slaves after 7 years etc etc.
Not only that but a new covenant came with Jesus that superseded the harsh provisions of the law. He shows the new way with preventing the sinning woman from being stoned to death, interacting with hated enemies, proclaiming people are more important than the law/rules and we should all work together for the common good.

Many of these principles are woven into our society and the basis of our law today.
Many societies fail to live up to these earliest principles even today.

But of course I knew I would have to point out this to you because it is completely beyond your ability to avoid gross generalizations.

I also frequently find ignoramuses proclaim loudly what is bad about the bible but are completely ignorant about what they are saying. E.g there are examples of bad behaviour in the bible as a lesson in what NOT to do., just because it’s in the bible doesn’t mean it’s the correct thing. God thought Kings were a bad idea but the Israelites insisted on a King and generally speaking bad things happened as a result.

I could go on but this is a deep and complex book with multi-layered meanings and teachings.
Your shallow dismissal of all that it contains is an indication of a closed mind.
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February 28, 2013 11:17am
graham

Weihana at 10:51 am

Hilarious. “The Force”.. now that’s just crazy talk.. but talking snakes and virgin birth… that’s eminently reasonable!

Oh I AM sorry, Weihana, I honestly didn’t mean to insult you. I didn’t realise you are in fact a believer in The Force.

So, I take it that you will be taking the first opportunity possible to be married to your Jedi partner by a Jedi celebrant? Congratulations! 🙂
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February 28, 2013 11:18am
TheContrarian

Why do the religious on this page think that Hitler has anything to do with secularism?

Remember this?
“”Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

And

“The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God’s will, and actually fulfill God’s will, and not let God’s word be desecrated. For God’s will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord’s creation, the divine will.”
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February 28, 2013 11:18am
TheContrarian

“The Bible established a code of conduct with the 10 commandments”

No it didn’t – the 10 commandments were lifted from much older laws including the Code of Hammurabi
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February 28, 2013 11:20am
krazykiwi

I like travel, but this long-haul flight might test my patience: Billionaire Denis Tito Plans to Send Married Couple to Mars.

Any volunteers? Note the little problem of likely infertility 😀
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February 28, 2013 11:20am
Weihana

Wayne91 (92) Says:
February 28th, 2013 at 11:10 am

Andrei – is it voluntary for a four year to brainwashed into thinking that God will protect her only if she believes, bows and scrapes to God? Forced to attend church, forced to listen to religious music, forced to watch religious TV.
Personally – I think that is not voluntary and borders on child abuse. I’m sure im not the only one that sees this happening.

Lots of things are forced on children by their parents. They are forced to go to school. Forced to attend family barbecues. Forced to wear uncomfortable clothes that are “just so precious!”. Life as a child inevitably involves limited freedom. Comparing a religious upbringing to child abuse trivializes real abuse in my view. However I do agree with the overall point that Christianity is not exactly always “voluntary”.
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February 28, 2013 11:20am
Lance

@The Contrarian
Yea Hitler was such a fan of Christianity he had thousands of Christians murdered for standing up for Godly principles.

Maybe he was an evil dictator that used any words at all to achieve his twisted goal?
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February 28, 2013 11:23am
kowtow

wehana
At no time did I suggest I don’t enjoy modern conveniences,I was simply saying the Dark Ages weren’t dark.

In fact the Age of Enlightenment gave us such brilliant characters as Adam Smith and Captain Cook. Both men whose contributions to our world are beyond estimation!

So wei do you celebrate colonial expansion and capitalism,both are great achivements of the Enlightenment you are so enamoured with?
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February 28, 2013 11:25am
Andrei

Wayne – the current ethos is to take children from about three and put them into “Childhood Early Education” where women, functionaries of the State, begin the process of indoctrinating according to a secular curricular developed in an ivory tower in Wellington.

Those people who raise their own children are perfectly entitled to raise them according to their own customs and mores to pass these onto their own children in turn.

The secular of course with their over weaning sense of self superiority hate this of course which is why all these efforts are undertaken to undermine parental teaching and authority.

Guess what mate if I raise my kids according to the beliefs and customs of my ancestors, beliefs and customs that have served my ancestors well for over a millenium it is none of your business!
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February 28, 2013 11:25am
Harriet

“…Lots of things are forced on children by their parents. They are forced to go to school…”

It’s the law that says that children should be ‘educated’, that can be at school or home schooled. However, to be ‘suitable’ citizens they have to be home taught the national curriculum.
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February 28, 2013 11:27am
TheContrarian

“Maybe he was an evil dictator that used any words at all to achieve his twisted goal?”

yes he was – but he wasn’t an atheist in the slightest and Mein Kampf was written (where he stated his belief in the lord and a creator) before he came to power
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February 28, 2013 11:27am
ex-golfer

@ Andrei – I agree it is topical – therefore it deserves its own thread where you can debate back and forth all day and night long with your continuous round-about arguments (that sound the same every day by the way).
Its such an important topic it deserves its own thread.
Then the rest of us can debate daily topics of interest.
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February 28, 2013 11:28am
Andrei

ex-golfer you are free to introduce any topic you want to this thread. If other people are interested it will fly and if they are not it will die.

That’s the way that this thread works
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February 28, 2013 11:31am
ex-golfer

@ Andrei – I did introduce a topic.
It quickly got buried under the daily marriage debate.
That’s the way General Debate now rolls.
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February 28, 2013 11:33am
Harriet

Mein Kampf wasn’t based on Christian doctrine in any way at all.
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February 28, 2013 11:33am
Weihana

kowtow (3,742) Says:
February 28th, 2013 at 11:25 am

So wei do you celebrate colonial expansion and capitalism,both are great achivements of the Enlightenment you are so enamoured with?

In a generalized sense, yes.
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February 28, 2013 11:36am
TheContrarian

“Mein Kampf wasn’t based on Christian doctrine in any way at all.”

I never said it was. But Hitler clearly though he was doing the work of a higher power.
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February 28, 2013 11:36am
Weihana

Harriet (1,186) Says:
February 28th, 2013 at 11:33 am

Mein Kampf wasn’t based on Christian doctrine in any way at all.

Nor was it based on secularism. That’s the point. People can disagree about religion/atheism without needing to ascribe the worst evils in history to their ideological opponents.
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February 28, 2013 11:38am
Andrei

@ Andrei – I did introduce a topic.
It quickly got buried under the daily marriage debate.
That’s the way General Debate now rolls.

There are other orphan posts on this thread besides yours – what it means is that nobody has anything more to say about the subject or they are just not that interested in the first place.

Don’t take it to heart
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February 28, 2013 11:39am
graham

Spot on Weihana (at 11:38)!
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February 28, 2013 11:40am
TheContrarian

@Weihana

Well said
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February 28, 2013 11:40am
ex-golfer

@ Andrei – don’t worry on my behalf, I don’t take things to heart.
I have much more entertaining things to do in my life.
Have a nice day.
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February 28, 2013 11:43am
kowtow

When the c#ntrarian quotes Hitler using Christian themes he falls into the same trap as so many Germans did.Duped.

But c#ntrarian is using Hitler to attack christians.Interesting choice of ally.
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February 28, 2013 11:44am
TheContrarian

“When the c#ntrarian quotes Hitler using Christian themes he falls into the same trap as so many Germans did.Duped.”

No I am not duped at all. What i am pointing out is that Hitler quite obviously didn’t do what he did for reasons of ‘atheism’ or ‘secularism’ which seems to be the narrative the religious would like others have belief. And it is bullshit.
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February 28, 2013 11:45am
kowtow

Yep the Nazis were good Christians . That’s why they murdered this evil bastard.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Kolbe.html
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February 28, 2013 11:51am
TheContrarian

Who said the Nazi’s were good Christians? Certainly wasn’t me.

Nice strawman though
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February 28, 2013 11:54am
Harriet

“….kea…..Your shallow dismissal of all that it contains[The Bible] is an indication of a closed mind…”

Quite right about kea….and a lot of others here too.

“……The shallow consider liberty a release from all law, from every constraint. The wise man sees in it, on the contrary, the potent Law of Laws….”–Walt Whitman
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February 28, 2013 11:58am
thedavincimode

It is interesting that there are essentially two quite distinct subsets of the god-bothering fraternity who frequent this blog.

One subset holds those who quietly go about their business and don’t feel compelled at every twist and turn to climb onto a religious hobby horse that inevitably provokes exchanges that hardly do the big guy’s reputation any good. They seem to have sufficient faith and self-awareness to not bother themselves in getting bogged down in that rubbish.

Then we have the other subset containing those who seem to think that in promulgating intolerance and bigotry in a way that appears, to the non godbothering fraternity at least, as being completely inconsistent with their understanding of Christian principles, they will enhance their chances of making it through the pearly gates. It’s almost as if it’s a case of “Look at me, I believe more”. It is quite perplexing behaviour. We are all human as they say, and nobody is perfect and it is naive to expect that anybody will consistently behave in a manner consistent with their belief set, so why should Christians be any different? But another perplexing behaviour from subset no. 2 is that it isn’t a case of the odd slip up. On the contrary, it is in fact reflective of their normal operating mode and it seems that in their case, the “slip up” would constitute behaving in a manner that is actually consistent with non G**bothers’ expectations of Christian standards of behaviour.

This is consistently reflected in KB’s landmark [pfft font]“debates”. Subset no. 2 aren’t content to merely say: ” I disagree with this gay marriage business and my disagreement is founded in my Christian beliefs which say this…” No, first it’s a case of: fact 1,” the bible is the authoritative source” (remembering of course that this is addressed to people who don’t believe it is any more than the umpteenth translation of some heresay ramblings jotted down on bits of paper that blew around the desert for a while); fact 2, “the bible says this therefore it is right” (to the same audience remember), therefore, conclusion: “all the nasty homos are inferior worthless people who will go to hell”, or that “this is just a part of a global homo plot to take over the world and I include all homos in that including the ones who just happen to be minding their own business and trying to get on with their lives.” Never mind allowing any compassion, or even trying to empathise with those who may have found confronting their sexuality a very difficult process and may have been grappling with self-esteem issues throughout their childhood and adolescence. No, the appropriate response is to point out to those lost souls that not only are they lost souls but they verge on the sub-human and are straight off to hell and so there!. Ditto the euthenasia debate and the appallingly arrogant and insensitive contribution by one of the usual suspects in particular.

Which of course leads to the third perplexing behaviour: feeling so jolly smug and pleased with themselves when they’ve done it.

It kind of narrows the choices down really. Either it genuinely is perplexing, or all we’ve been hearing for the last couple of thousand years is rubbish and JC was in fact just an itinerant arsehole.
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February 28, 2013 12:00pm
Harriet

“….No I am not duped at all. What i am pointing out is that Hitler quite obviously didn’t do what he did for reasons of ‘atheism’ or ‘secularism’ which seems to be the narrative the religious would like others have belief. And it is bullshit….’

Stick with the ‘isms’ idiot and you’ll soon get to racism, and Nationalism.

And that’s trueism 😎
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February 28, 2013 12:02pm
Colville

The Nazis certianly thought they had God on their side….Gott mit uns and all that stuff…
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February 28, 2013 12:06pm
TheContrarian

Way to miss the point Harriet.
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February 28, 2013 12:06pm
RRM

DVM – you mean our Christian Taliban?

Yes we’ve all noticed.

maybe if people ignored them instead of taking the bait, things would be different?
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February 28, 2013 12:07pm
nasska

In a nutshell Davinci….the situation has never been described better.
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February 28, 2013 12:12pm
RRM

Neat doco about the WW2 Hawker Typhoon squadrons… which there seems to be very little else out there about.

Appears to be a small private venture film, trying to get air play any way he can. It seems good enough to be on TV if you ask me…

http://youtu.be/qexMo-2ZLos
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February 28, 2013 12:12pm
kowtow

colville

Got mit uns predated the Nazis.
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February 28, 2013 12:13pm
kowtow

I’d guess dawinci is feeling jolly smug and pleased with himself after that massive midday missive.

Arsehole.
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February 28, 2013 12:16pm
Keeping Stock

What Elaycee said (at 8.26am). TV3’s coverage of the V8’s has been woeful at best. Sky TV will provide genuine live coverage, and for those of us with the foresight to invest in MySky, even if races are at inconvenient times there’s still the opportunity to watch them in full. With motorcycling, F1, NASCAR, NHRA and the V8 Supercars, not to mention local motorsport coverage, Sky is the place for the petrolheads to get their fix.
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February 28, 2013 12:20pm
Andrei

What a load of crap thedavincimode.

See what progressive do is not to debate through logic and reason but through shallow emotion.

If any one disagrees with gay “marriage” they are by your definition a bigot, hater homophobe. This is how you attempt to bully your opponants into silence.

And do you know why you do it because you don’t actually have a case, the only way to win is to bully people into silent compliance with whatever insanity you intend to inflict upon us all whether we like it or not
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February 28, 2013 12:21pm
kowtow

RRM,dawinci and nasskrap

Our Secular Taliban. There I can throw silly insults too.
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February 28, 2013 12:25pm
Harriet

“….Ditto the euthenasia debate and the appallingly arrogant and insensitive contribution by one of the usual suspects in particular….”

Was that me?
All I can remember saying was:

With abortion and euthanasia the government is becoming a killing machine. The lesson learnt from the Nazis is that they needed the knowledge of the doctors who were already aborting and practicing euathansia to run their extermination programme, without them it wasn’t possable…….Like abortion, the NZ government will put up a wall of silence and we won’t know if the rules around euathansia are being expanded like the doctors were doing with abortion. We never voted in 3rd term abortions in NZ.

It was more a case of saying the truth than being insensitive: A warning.
The Nazi matter is all recorded as such, but that’s not to say that NZ would go down that road, but the fact is: The doctors in Germany probably thought the same!
The Greens in Germany were one of the first, keenest, and largest groups to sign up as members of the Socialist Nationalist Party.
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February 28, 2013 12:25pm
hinamanu

“Stick with the ‘isms’ idiot and you’ll soon get to racism, and Nationalism.

And that’s trueism ”

Harriet…start your own blog and I’ll subscribe
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February 28, 2013 12:34pm
hinamanu

Deadly Mexican Drug Cartels Offer $47,000 For Info On Anonymous Facebook Watchdogs

A Facebook page run by anonymous activists has drawn the anger of drug cartels in the border state of Tamaulipas by tracking car-jackings, kidnappings, and murders in the region. The cartel has responded by printed flyers, which offer a $47,000 reward for any information on the activists or their family members.

And these are the drug cartels Bank of America was sued over for laundering their money. A lot of the reason for the 2008 financial crash was drug cartels withdrawing funds from US banks. One analyst on Max Keiser has said no one at all in the US financial sector knows exactly what is in US banks.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/28184/deadly-mexican-drug-cartels-offer-47-000-for-info-on-anonymous-facebook-watchdogs
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February 28, 2013 12:38pm

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