WCC vs bar owners

June 5th, 2013 at 1:00 pm by David Farrar

Kerry McBride at Stuff reports:

Wellington city centre bar owners are looking at legal action to fight plans they say could kill Wellington’s nightlife.

officers have presented a briefing to councillors on the draft local policy, suggesting a precinct approach to trading hours, with different hours allowed for different areas.

Three “entertainment precincts” in Courtenay Place, Cuba St and the waterfront would be allowed licences until 5am, while other inner-city bars would have to shut at 2am.

Suburban venues and a “high risk” zone around Newtown would be restricted to midnight closing.

At present, 3am licences are standard for inner-city bars, with some “best practice” owners able to apply for later licences.

A group of 14 bar owners, representing more than 30 venues, is now investigating an injunction to stop the proposal reaching the council table.

Matt McLaughlin, who owns three bars, said the industry was sick of being pushed around by the council when off-licences and people drinking at home then going out were the real issue.

“It’s not fair because we are not the main problem. We’ve had a gutsful.”

Bryce Mason, owner of Sandwiches in Kent Tce, said the policy would be the death of his bar, which would fall outside the main entertainment zone, restricting him to a 2am licence.

Sandwiches closing at 2 am would be ridiculous. The concept of different times for different zones is not a bad one, but the areas can’t be arbitrary. To have Sandwiches close at 2 am and bars 50 metres up the road closing at 5 am is nuts.

Steve Drummond, from The Green Man pub, said kicking people out of bars at 2am would create huge problems in the streets, and force more people into fewer venues.

It would destroy some businesses, but “we are not going to stand by and let that happen”.

if some bars close at 2 am, it won’t mean their customers will go home. They will go up the road.

Councillor John Morrison said the restrictive hours would completely change the bar scene of Wellington and make events such as the rugby sevens impossible to host effectively.

“The hospitality industry is vital here, it’s our lifeblood. It’s completely contrary to the economic goals of the city to shut things down like this.”

A 2 am closing after the Sevens would be nuts.

The whole CBD should be treated as one area. May be very sensible to have some suburbs on different hours, but bars that are within walking distance of each other should be treated the same.

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98 Responses to “WCC vs bar owners”

  1. TheContrarian (1,085 comments) says:

    Jesus man, some acts at Sandwiches don’t start until 2am.

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  2. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    Sniff sniff I smell Bacon.

    This has Police interference written all over it. Constantly NZ Police are lobbying to restrict the freedoms of the people they are supposed to serve. They are employed to enforce existint law, not act as a lobby group for nanny state. We have democratically elected reps for that task.

    If they do not like dealing with a few drunks and half wits they picked the wrong career. It is none of the states business what we drink, where we drink, how much we drink and until what time we drink. I am tired of these authoritarian nut jobs being given power over intelligent normal humans.

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  3. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    The social liberals at work again.

    More drugs, more police, more regulations, more crimes, more jail cells, more taxation, a bigger state with more powers.

    Just great ain’t it?

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  4. Manolo (13,518 comments) says:

    Where is the Luddite Wade-Brown when you need her, or is she a teetotaller? :-(

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  5. peterwn (3,239 comments) says:

    Manolo – do not worry, John Morrison will soon be Mayor. Even Annette King has smelt the coffee and decided against having a go at the Mayoralty.

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  6. Lance (2,629 comments) says:

    @Kea
    “Sniff sniff I smell Bacon ”

    It will help if you take your head out your own arse.

    Any evidence to back up that pathetic attack on the Police?
    I assume the WCC are capable of making up their own minds, or do you think it is already a Police state?
    You really shouldn’t read Wussells briefing notes.

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  7. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    Lance, yes there is plenty of evidence. Read a news paper. The Police are forever wasting tax payers money complaining about people drinking. When they are not spending a fortune on moaning about LEGAL highs.

    Maybe angry little shits like you need the Police to instruct you on proper behaviour. But the rest of us do not.

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  8. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (3,264) Says:
    June 5th, 2013 at 1:34 pm

    The social liberals at work again.

    More drugs, more police, more regulations, more crimes, more jail cells, more taxation, a bigger state with more powers.

    Just great ain’t it?

    It seems you do not know what “liberal” means. It means more freedom, not more regulation. Nanny state alcohol regulation is a conservative approach, not a liberal one.

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  9. artemisia (234 comments) says:

    Exactly what problem are they trying to solve? And is the problem and its impact consistent with the solutions proposed? I wonder how well those issues are covered in the briefing paper and, if some or all of the proposals are implemented, what level of follow up will happen to determine if the changes have in fact solved the problem. And how much fudging will occur.

    In my experience, defining the problem is the most critical part of any analysis and is nearly always the area given least effort and attention. It’s only human to jump right to a solution – pretty much any solution will do as long as it’s roughly in the right direction – because we don’t cope well with uncertainty and ambiguity. But not when it is public money being spent, and human activities being restricted. That needs our employees in central and local government to be very very clear on the problem.

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  10. Lance (2,629 comments) says:

    So now Kea thinks (legal… ah hemm) drug use and alcohol consumption has no bearing on crime?
    You need to stop smoking that shit, it’s addled your brain.

    There needs to be a balance, the Police are a voice as they are on the front line dealing with this shit constantly and know a fuck load more than you do about the reality of these issues.
    That said it’s the WCC decision, not the Police.

    Just for the record I tend to agree that this is heavy handed.

    On the other hand I think your pathetic attack on the Police is at best infantile and at worst proof positive of a dickhead

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  11. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    Lance, that’s right. You bend over and take it like a good little boy from the “authorities”.

    While you are at it ponder this:

    1. Crimes are defined by written laws.

    2. Police are employed to enforce those laws.

    3. Democratically elected representatives make those laws.

    I am no more interested in the opinions of Police than I am ditch diggers. Less so in fact. Police over estimate problems and have a very distorted view of society. Few manage to keep their heads with constant exposure to criminals.

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  12. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    artemisia (149) Says:
    June 5th, 2013 at 2:25 pm

    Exactly what problem are they trying to solve?

    I think the problem is in thinking that with enough regulations and controls you can solve any “problem”. This is the mindset of those special individuals anointed to high office to tell us plebs what time to go to bed. We do not dare rest with individuals being punished for particular offences. The rest of us are at fault too and we must share in our collective responsibility for our devilish indulgences. So long as there is any problem in society some group must be held to account because it goes against our nature to simply deal with the individual act. We want to know what tribe that individual belongs to so we can prepare the midnight raid to deal with the problem once and for all.

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  13. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    “Nanny state alcohol regulation is a conservative approach, not a liberal one.”

    Weihana, you don’t seem to realise the simple truth that it is your policies that are causing the problem, your politicians who are calling for regulation to deal with it and your increased state powers that will in the end deal with it.

    I do not support regulation, and I do not support social liberalism. There is no conundrum there. It is social liberal who are behind the expansion in the size and power of the state over the last few decades, because that is who we have been governed by. You admit there is no Conservative influence in our society, so how can they be running it?

    No way mate, it is you social liberals who are doing all this shit.

    Conservatives don’t need it.

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  14. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Lance (1,980) Says:
    June 5th, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    So now Kea thinks (legal… ah hemm) drug use and alcohol consumption has no bearing on crime?
    You need to stop smoking that shit, it’s addled your brain.

    I think you miss the point. What is proof of a “bearing”? The only proof you will ever be able to provide is a statistical correlation (likely coupled with a selection of anecdotes). Yet I would venture to say that an even stronger statistical link between ethnicity and crime can be drawn. Maori after all are 50% of the prison population last I checked. But you would never say “being Maori has a bearing on crime” or if you did you would whisper in the shadows away from the ears of anyone who might label you a racist.

    And this, I presume, is at the heart of Kea’s point: he may be out drinking at 3am. There may be a correlation between 3am, alcohol and incidents police have to attend to. But Kea is not committing any crime or causing any trouble so why must he be held to account as if he’s doing something wrong?

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  15. nasska (11,198 comments) says:

    How would Lee Kuan Yew have handled it?

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  16. artemisia (234 comments) says:

    And speaking of the ‘serious alcohol problems’ in the Wellington CDB:

    ‘The pin has been pulled on the much-heralded ambulance triage centre in Wellington’s party district after a drop in drunks being treated. Wellington Free Ambulance decided the triage centre was “no longer necessary” on Friday and Saturday nights. ….. The triage centre treated up to 50 people each night during the Hertz Sevens in February, but that had dwindled to sometimes as few as one or two patients on regular Friday and Saturday nights, Long said. ….. In the 12 months to March 31, the triage centre – which either operated out of a tent or ambulance – had treated 137 people.’

    So take out say 80 people from the Sevens that’s about 1 person treated per weekend. Soooo, what problem were they trying to solve again with the 6 or 7 people on duty each night at the triage centre?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8750719/Wellington-CBD-triage-centre-gets-the-chop

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  17. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    Nasska, you’re a commie because you think like a commie, making the same mistake about Singapore that they all do. There is only one thing that really matters about Singapore in respect of the political arguments we have here, and that is that it stands as proof a society can exist and reach it full potential without any left wing influence and without any welfare state.

    Everything else is just bullshit, but because you’re just another commie, you’ll apparently never get that simple point.

    Let me say it again in the faint hope that it penetrates your leaden skull.

    The simple lesson we learn from Singapore is that we do not need people like Helen Klark and we do not need their welfare state. The country/ city stands as a stark monument to what can be achieved if you keep people like Helen Klark (and you Nasska) out of your parliament.

    That’s why the left hate Singapore, and its why you hate it too. Fuckwit.

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  18. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (3,267) Says:
    June 5th, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    Weihana, you don’t seem to realise the simple truth that it is your policies that are causing the problem, your politicians who are calling for regulation to deal with it and your increased state powers that will in the end deal with it.

    No, I don’t hold that to be a simple truth. Alcoholism is neither created by government policy nor solved by government policy and I do not personally support this regulation, nor advocate any further increase in state power to deal with this problem. Indeed I advocate less regulation and restriction with regards to other drugs for which addiction and other forms of harm are likewise not effectively treated by criminal penalties.

    Disorderly conduct should be treated on a case by case basis, dealing with the particular offenders as is reasonable in those circumstances. By blaming such occurrences on broad groups of people such as those who drink after 2am we only serve to diminish any notion of individual responsibility.

    Moreover, I do not hold that there is no conservative influence on society. This is overly simplistic. We are fairly liberal, but our drug policy and the like are not liberal policies. They are very much conservative.

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  19. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    Red has no idea what a Liberal is.

    More laws and regulations from central government, be it left or right, is not the Liberal approach. Shoving god inspired Conservative moralistic shit down peoples throats by force of law is even further removed from the Liberal approach.

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  20. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    “Shoving god inspired Conservative moralistic shit down peoples throats by force of law”

    All you do all day is lie like the cowardly troll you are. I have never advocated for regulation. Find one comment of mine where I have or fuck off you yellow liar.

    I have consistently stated that in a society wherein people hold to their own moral standards and those standards are high enough there is no need for government regulation.

    Stop lying you despicable coward.

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  21. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (3,268) Says:
    June 5th, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    There is only one thing that really matters about Singapore in respect of the political arguments we have here, and that is that it stands as proof a society can exist and reach it full potential without any left wing influence and without any welfare state.

    Except it does have a welfare state as pointed out to you already. Transferring wealth from migrants who pay tax but receive no subsidies to locals who do receive subsidies is welfare.

    Everything else is just bullshit…

    Bullshit… otherwise known as inconvenient facts that do not fit your utopian narrative. Internet censorship? No thanks. Political prisoners? No thanks. Maybe that’s your vision of freedom. Seems little more than modern fascism to anyone who truly values individual freedom.

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  22. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    Red, You advocate for regulation and laws daily. You wanted a law forbidding gay marriage, for example. You constantly jump to defend a primitive desert cult and hold them up as an example of morality.

    You also gave away your real views with this little nugget: “I have consistently stated that in a society wherein people hold to their own moral standards and those standards are high enough there is no need for government regulation.”

    In effect you are saying if people do not comply with your views then the government should regulate.

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  23. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Redbaiter,

    “I have never advocated for regulation.”

    But be in possession of some grass that he dislikes and he has no problem seeing you hang by the end of a noose until all the life is drained from your body. Such is his high regard for personal freedom.

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  24. nasska (11,198 comments) says:

    Not correct Reddy.

    The real difference is that you, General Franco, Lee Kwan Yew & most politicians (including Clark) after a few years just know deep in their tummies what is good for everyone but there’s these little impediments such as democracy & freedom of speech standing in the way. All you have to do is suppress these & the road is clear.

    When authoritarian wing nuts get power be afraid…very afraid.

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  25. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    You are all liars who seek to misrepresent my views as the only way you can validate your own bigotries.

    I have never advocated for regulation.

    If I do it all the time as you say, finding one comment where I do so should be easy.

    Find it or remain labelled as cowardly liars, (which is what in the end every Progressive is always going to be anyway, for to believe what you believe your first lie has to be to yourself).

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  26. Jinky (184 comments) says:

    Changing the hours of trading for a number of bars will solve nothing. The major issues are “pre-loading” at home and drunk people still being served alcohol when a “responsible publican” would decline service and send their customers home in a cab. Charging bar managers with breaking the sale of liquor act, suspending the bar’s licence for serving intoxicated and/or underage kids might have more effect. The number of drunken youngsters staggering around Wgtn on a wednesday night (half-price drinks) is ridiculous.

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  27. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    Red you are an authoritarian and KB’s biggest fan of regulation by force.

    Things are changing in Singapore. Now they have their material comforts they are moving towards addressing other social issues. This includes issues around freedom of expression and welfare for the needy. Maybe it is the influence of all those communist Chinese a Red ?

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  28. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    Weihana, if you are so concerned about freedom, and the perceived lack of it in Singapore, why are you not concerned by the fact that welfare has so perverted the democratic system in NZ that each election today is basically a robbery where about a million voters hold a gun at the head of the productive sector and demand the proceeds of their labour?

    You say you are concerned with freedom but that is bullshit because this gross travesty of democracy is an event that regularly passes without one complaint from you as to its perversion into a cynical and destructive exercise in theft.

    What’s more, you and your commie mates engineered it.

    So back off hypocrite.

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  29. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    Jinky , I do not agree that the responsibility should be placed on bar owners for other peoples behaviour. Also being drunk should not be an offence. Doing wrong to others is already a crime. If no wrong is done then it is none of states business how pissed a person chooses to be.

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  30. flipper (3,952 comments) says:

    If the media had the balls that they once had, they would have tyold, long since, the Police to piss off.

    Their job is by statute, defined as observing the law and presenting transgressors to the Courts.

    They have no role in policy whatsoever. Their actions are a classic example of authority creep.

    The Molesworth Street gang in blue should take a long hard look at themselves ….and fuck off!

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  31. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    Four Fallacies about the Singapore Welfare State

    http://www.social-dimension.com/2011/09/four-fallacies-about-the-singapore-welfare-state.html

    1. “Singapore is not a welfare state.”

    2. “The Western welfare model is bound to fail.”

    3. “Social welfare is un-Asian.”

    4. “In spite of what critics might say, our social welfare system has worked.”

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  32. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    flipper, gets it and sums it up so well even Red and the other authoritarians may see a glimmer of light.

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  33. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    More time wasting bullshit dredged up by morally and intellectually bankrupt trolls.

    Singapore is completely devoid of the corrosive effect of welfare. There is virtually no transfer payments from one person’s bank account into another. Virtually no unemployed, virtually no sickness beneficiaries and virtually no solo mothers. Look up the expenditure on those items and compare it to the expenditure on these items in NZ and you can immediately realise how the left have conned NZ into drinking the toxic poisonous and unaffordable brew of welfare in the belief that its honey and milk.

    While Singapore has dragged itself from the swamps, NZ at the hands of the progs has collapsed into the biggest most stinking and bottomless and destructive social mire in its history.

    That is the legacy of the progressives.

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  34. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    Red, yeah we have some problems. But so does Singapore. I have posted many comments critical of our welfare state and I am not defending it. But it is not all one thing or the other.

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  35. Ed Snack (1,839 comments) says:

    Sometimes it seems that for NZ’ers, the only way to tell if you had a really good night out is whether you can remember anything about it, and if you can you can’t have got hammered enough to “really enjoy yourself”.

    Interesting how it is that apparently one can’t properly even enjoy the Seven’s tournament without having the ability to drink oneself senseless after 2 am. #firstworldproblems

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  36. RRM (9,786 comments) says:

    That’s why the left hate Singapore, and its why you hate it too. Fuckwit.

    :lol: LOL what? Some of your posts today have been even more fucked up than usual Weddy.

    The left does not hate Singapore. You’re confusing reality with the pixies in your head / reds under your bed again.

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  37. David Garrett (7,005 comments) says:

    I just wonder how we all managed to have such a jolly time when all the “bars” closed at 10….but then, as everyone knows, nothing happened in NZ back then…

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  38. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    David, I was speaking to a friend in Singapore in the weekend. Sounds like they party pretty hard there. A wide range of drugs are also available. Maybe Red is a fun guy after all :)

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  39. David Garrett (7,005 comments) says:

    Kea: Of course New York City was a completely dead town at any time between 1919 and 1933…Perhaps Red should open a speakeasy…

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  40. exile (34 comments) says:

    Singapore, where 85% of the population lives in government built housing schemes. They are heavily subsidised, and are made available to low income applicants on a sliding price scale. Mortgages even for unsubsidised purchasers are financed at less than 1%. A 3 bedroom apartment in a new build goes for $180000-200000. But there is no welfare.

    At the ground floor of most housing schemes are markets and food centres, where vendors enjoy heavily discounted rent in order to provide meals for $3-4.

    A doctors visit is $17 including medication. Surgery at government hospitals is also priced similarly.

    The government here is responsible for 2/3 of the domestic economy. Most Singaporeans are employed in by the government, town councils, or government owned entities. The government owns the most of the land (everything is leasehold), most of the retail space, most of the commercial space, airport, the port, the power company, the refinery, the main telco (with heavy investment in the two competitors), most of the supermarket chains, the pharmacy chains, most of the tourism ventures, the newspapers, the TV channels….

    ‘Anonymous’ keyboard warriors are regularly prosecuted for spouting inflammatory nonsense online though, so Singapore does have something going for it.

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  41. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (3,275) Says:
    June 5th, 2013 at 3:47 pm

    …why are you not concerned by the fact that welfare has so perverted the democratic system in NZ that each election today is basically a robbery where about a million voters hold a gun at the head of the productive sector and demand the proceeds of their labour?

    Perhaps I’m not as concerned because the “gun” in your example is little more than a tired ideological cliche whereas in Singapore the executions are real. People are literally murdered by government rather than suffering under the metaphorical “gun”.

    Moreover, the whole “takers and makers” narrative is completely horseshit in any case. Most government expenditure does not go towards beneficiaries, it more often goes towards universal programs: education, healthcare, superannuation, the military etc.

    We also live in a country that rewards success. Indeed our own Prime Minister exemplifies the opportunities this country provides to those who start from limited means.

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  42. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    “People are literally murdered by government”

    Thought so. More lies. Capital punishment prevails in Singapore because the government recognises its responsibility to preserve society from the predations of criminals. In other words, it enforces the law.

    The Castro government murders its citizens, and is so far responsible for around 100,000 such deaths. But that’s Ok because they’re commies.

    Like all leftists, you’re extremely selective in what you see as infringements on personal liberty.

    In fact Singapore is far more free in many senses than NZ.

    Women are free to walk the streets on their own at night. Progressives have taken that freedom from women in NZ.

    Citizens are free from massive levels of violence within the community. Progressives have stolen that freedom from NZ citizens.

    Voters are free to vote for a government without being held to ransom by the looting class. Welfarists/ socialists have stolen that freedom from voters in NZ.

    Workers enjoy much greater portion of the year free of the slavery of taxation. In Singapore Tax Freedom day is only half that of NZ’s 140 days of slavery.

    So you can make all the false allegations you like about Singapore and its freedom, the truth is that everywhere the left prevail, the situation is much worse, and in most cases attracts no criticism at all from hypocrites on the left who claim to be concerned with such things.

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  43. RRM (9,786 comments) says:

    Funny, I thought it was violent criminals preventing women walking alone at night. All along it was the progressive state… :-)

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  44. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    DG

    If you were serious about your drinking like I was there was no such thing as a shut bar anywhere anytime. Auckland was always 24 hours you just had to not care who you were drinking with or where you were doing it

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  45. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    My friend in Singapore is a well off business woman and not exactly short of a bob. She lives in a very nice apartment overlooking a forest. I was shocked to learn it is “government housing”.

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  46. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    “I was shocked to learn it is “government housing”.”

    A disclosure that shows you probabaly know as much about Singapore as every other subject you profess knowledge in.

    In fact sweet fuck all.

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  47. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    Red, rather a cheeky thing to say considering the basis of your entire argument has been revealed as bullshit by the better informed.

    Never mind, there are plenty of other things to hate on :)

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  48. nasska (11,198 comments) says:

    Reddy

    Beautifully crafted comment designed to hide the reality of life in Singapore outlined in “exiles” 5.01pm. I cannot recall one person on these forums extolling the lifestyle of the unfortunates native to North Korea or Cuba. The countries are shitholes & even a socialist in advanced state of denial syndrome will seldom do much other than look at their feet & mumble when they are mentioned.

    If however, as is your practise, Singapore is to be held up as a model of a welfare free state it is unrealistic to expect any of us to ignore the myriad faults of the authoritarian regime that runs it. The perfect safety of the average citizen comes at a terrible cost to civil liberties & freedoms we take for granted.

    But harking back to your obsessive hate of NZ as it stands. You have spent years boring us shitless about what should be & what is wrong with us. Now, tell your adoring fans of the practical steps of turning a modern liberal democracy into an authoritarian, moralistic dump where sky pixies prevail & freedom is a memory. Keep in mind that most of us realise that a benevolent dictatorship is the most efficient form of government….it’s just that when they turn rogue & corrupt as they inevitably do they are impossible to get rid of.

    Or are you going to have an epiphany & admit that for all your hot air & scatology it couldn’t be done without bloodshed that would make Stalin baulk at the thought?

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  49. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    Read my blog.

    I have no desire to write here at the bidding of those who are most responsible for the parlous state of this country.

    The objective is not to convince you of anything but to awaken readers and lurkers and others to where the real poison in our society emanates from.

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  50. nasska (11,198 comments) says:

    Read your blog? It’s bad enough reading the crap you infest these forums with. :)

    But thanks for the tacit admittance that you are full of criticism & hot air with complaints aplenty but no practical solutions.

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  51. thedavincimode (6,633 comments) says:

    Read my blog.

    But nobody does. That’s why you come here.

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  52. David Garrett (7,005 comments) says:

    Well, this has all morphed somewhat, but I have to say on this topic – as it has evolved – I am with Red…while it is true that it is violent crims who have removed womens’ – or for that matter anyones’ – right to walk on the street unmolested, there is no doubt that the state is responsible for allowing that to happen…And our stupid liberal state did it in little more than a generation.

    Two cases today: Gavin Gosnell, found guilty of murdering a young teenager and cutting him up…18 years non- parole….when Red was a boy he would have hanged…Another unnamed piece of slime who sexually abused his 13 year old son and put images of him on the internet…when I was a boy (I’m a lot younger than Red) he wouldn’t have made it to trial…and if he somehow lasted that long, he wouldn’t make it in prison long enough to be troubling the parole board in nine years time…

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  53. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    Oh and as for exile’s comment, which I hadn’t noticed, same old same old.

    It just does not matter, for the salient point that you fucking thick as sixteen short planks progs just cannot seem to get is that whatever the government might do it is not ever so stupid as the government here when it white ants the work ethic and self reliance of its citizens.

    That is the fucking point.

    Jesus Christ on a bike how often do I have to say it and how many times will the same collection of slow witted fools post comments here seemingly unrealising of this simple fucking concept??

    FFS, an army of morons.

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  54. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    Citizens are free from massive levels of violence within the community. Progressives have stolen that freedom from NZ citizens.

    It sounds like Red lives in a very rough area ! Massive levels of violence he informs us. At least the government here does not ritually torture people for minor offences or lead the world in executions.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3c9_1304013159

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapore

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  55. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    Is there ever anyone more lacking in self awareness than a troll who posts links?

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  56. nasska (11,198 comments) says:

    ….”whatever the government might do it is not ever so stupid as the government here when it white ants the work ethic and self reliance of its citizens.”….

    Well why not come out & bloody well state that fact rather than waffle on about what happens in a Southeast Asian dictatorship. If you thought before you typed your savings on keyboards would feed a small country.

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  57. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    Yeah I know those links show you up for the evil bastard you really are Red, but I am laying the boot in this time.

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  58. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Epic fail from Reddy in trying to avoid exile’s comment.

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  59. thedavincimode (6,633 comments) says:

    Is there ever anyone more lacking in self awareness than a troll who posts links?

    LOL. Russell/”self awareness”. Join the dots if you can.

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  60. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    Milky go somewhere else.

    Sorry to inform you of this, but as the extreme left (that’s you) lost long ago I don’t have time for your infantile drivel.

    The battle today is to defeat those who enabled you.

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  61. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Stop it Reddy, you’re bringing me down.

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  62. thedavincimode (6,633 comments) says:

    The battle today is to defeat those who enabled you.

    You heard it first from General Custard.

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  63. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    Jostling a bit frantically there aren’t we Kevin?

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  64. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    And did anyone ever enter a battle of wits less well-equipped?

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  65. thedavincimode (6,633 comments) says:

    So what was it Russell? Did Kevin refuse to go down on you?

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  66. nasska (11,198 comments) says:

    Reddy will never forget what his girlfriend said to him the first time they made love.

    “If you get any cum in my hair, it’ll cost you another twenty.”

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  67. thedavincimode (6,633 comments) says:

    Oops. Looks like the Palin doll has logged in. How do you do it Russell? Press her inflatable nipple onto the mouse?

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  68. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    The battle today is to defeat those who enabled you

    Dear oh bloody dear.

    The martial tones of the truly deluded. I have been asking for three or four years now, give us some fucking answers Red? but no you can’t , I am well aware I am a knuckle dragging progressive thick as 16 short planks etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

    Give us some of “Das Red.” Go on give us your manifesto for righting not only all the ills in New Zealand but the entire planet.

    I believe Gorden McLaughlin summed you up well Red , to paraphrase ” who is this fuckwit from Tauranga called Russell?”

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  69. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Gordon McLaughlin was obviously overrating Reddy considerably.

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  70. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    Paula, thanks for the laugh.

    You long ago disqualified yourself from the category of those who might react to reasoned debate.

    You’re free to come to whatever conclusions you choose, and I couldn’t help you even if I wanted to.

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  71. thedavincimode (6,633 comments) says:

    … the category of those who might react to reasoned debate.

    Stop it. You’re making me spill my drink.

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  72. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    I’m astounded at you Kevin.

    Fancy an adviser to the PM being capable of such banality.

    Then again, I guess there has to be some reason for the Nat’s ever increasing cluelessness.

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  73. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    http://pc.blogspot.co.nz/2009/09/troll.html

    Some vintage Red from 2009. Come on down Mr Russell Fletcher

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  74. David Garrett (7,005 comments) says:

    Dear oh dear…but seriously Russell…if only you were right, and the extreme left HAD lost the battle…with the current counterattack on 3S getting some air time I fear the bastards are actually a serious threat…I certainly don’t take them lightly, or underestimate their power to persuade…but then I never controlled a 20,000 psi kick in 8,000 feet of open hole either….

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  75. thedavincimode (6,633 comments) says:

    but then I never controlled a 20,000 psi kick in 8,000 feet of open hole either….

    Neither did Russell when he bent over to pick up his Gold Card at the bus stop.

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  76. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    I’d say Kevin that if there is anyone suffering from any kind of incontinence on here today Kevin, it is you and its verbal.

    Fucking pitiful to observe really.

    So gay.

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  77. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    Then again, I guess there has to be some reason for the Nat’s ever increasing cluelessness lead in the Polls.

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  78. thedavincimode (6,633 comments) says:

    Scene 2

    Enter Russell Fletcher, Statesman, of Tauranga.

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  79. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    All the Nats are doing under the guidance of weak arsed commie surrender monkeys like Kevin is induce socialists to vote for them when they should be convincing more voters to vote against socialism.

    That’s no success. That’s abject failure and will only ensure NZ continues down the road to socialist disaster. Maybe a bit longer to get there but we’re still heading for the same lemming like destination.

    Food in schools- pffft.. just the kind of gutless crap you’d expect Kevin to come up with.

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  80. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Reddy-baiting is good fun, but back to the topic.
    It’s self-evident that a community can regulate the consumption of dangerous substances, like alcohol, or at the very least regulate the behaviour of those intoxicated. The libertarian part of me says go for it – if you can run a bar without impinging on neighbours’ reasonable rights, go for it and open any time you damn well please. The communitarian part of me would emphasise a reasonable set of rules we can all play by. I know that somewhere in the middle lies that happy medium that allows people to enjoy themselves and businesses to make money with a minimum of accompanying mayhem.

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  81. David Garrett (7,005 comments) says:

    Mikey: Well bugger me….have you been on a macrobiotic diet or something? Very sensible comment…

    The libertarian part of me – and it’s a big part whatever anyone might think – says “go for it” too, when it comes to imbibing substances, legal or otherwise…the problem is – as the cops say – “nothing good happens in the central city after 2 am”. I will expose myself to both friendly and unfriendly fire, and say that speaking personally, all of my major f..ups (excepting “that one”; alcohol had nothing to do with it) had piss involved somewhere….and I know very well I am not the lone ranger.

    Perhaps a return to public drunkeness as an offence is the answer? I have never forgotten being at the Lygon Street festival in Melbourne 20 odd years ago at 2 in the am…I couldn’t quite figure out what it was that was so different to home…then it hit me: no-one was staggering along the street pissed, and the coppers were quietly waiting in the side streets lest anyone be stupid enough to do so. I asked one of them, and confirmed that public drunkeness would result in immediate arrest, as would carrying an open bottle or can of alcohol. The result? My then wife and I spent a pleasant hour at a couple of sidewalk cafe’s listening to jazz, and then walked back to our hotel a couple of blocks away…by which time it was after 3. And no pissed larrikins disturbing people’s enjoyment anywhere.

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  82. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I think definitely crack down on the disorder offences associated with alcohol, but there comes a point where some attention needs to be paid to the causes of disorder. The difficulties come in agreeing on any set of regulations. A couple of decades ago 10pm seemed pretty late, now we are arguing about whether bars should have to close at 2am or 5am. At some stage a local authority has to set some rules and stick by them. Fairly consistent closing times and broadly defined zones should work, but there will always be some establishment one block outside whatever limit is chosen or another that has a genuine reason for opening later.
    Council offices can propose a scheme, for councillors to vote on. If you don’t like how your councillor votes; don’t for for him or her. Even better, have your say when the council consults.

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  83. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    “At some stage a local authority has to set some rules and stick by them.”

    Typical social liberal thought pattern.

    We do not need regulations to tell people how to behave.

    We just need people to behave with some small degree of decency and consideration for others.

    Once known as manners, but that’s a concept long ago lost in the ever encroaching quagmire of social liberalism/ progressivism.

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  84. Kea (12,099 comments) says:

    We can change our drinking any time we like. We should not look to the “authorities” we should look to ourselves. It needs to be a cultural change not another law imposed on us. We already have too much bad law and restrictions on our freedom.

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  85. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    According to Reddy, all we need is good manners. Tell that to rapists and murderers. We obviously need laws to control some extremes of human behaviour. We can agree to differ over whether those laws need to extend to the type and quantity of intoxicating substances one is allowed to ingest, and where and when one is allowed to ingest them. I’d maintain that regulation of such matters is justified in a free society.

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  86. exile (34 comments) says:

    How long have you lived in Singapore Redbaiter? In my past 4 years here I have never seen anything like the fantasy that you are describing.

    Singapore is well off because it provides a stable, low tax environment next to some of the largest developing economies on the planet. Banks are here trading in these markets like piranhas, and there are also plenty of exiles from these countries who find it politically expedient not to have their ill gained wealth in their own countries. There are more Indonesian billionaires living in Singapore than live in Indonesia, as well as many PRC who have recently earned large amounts of foreign currency that they never thought to declare to their own government.

    The average Singaporean is a lot worse off. They tend to have a very narrow skill set, and one of the side effects of the ‘meritocracy’ is that mobility between one professional category and another is non-existent. Want you do your degree in dictates your career for life. Companies lay off engineers and other professionals in their late 40s, and replace them with cheaper graduates. There is no pathway into management without management qualifications.

    These ‘retirees’ live off tiny investments (remember that they purchased government flats in the 90s for no more than 5 figures), or drive taxis. If you receive a single cent from any investment you have made, even a simple currency trade, then you are no longer unemployed. You also have to register with the government for a trading license so there is no avoiding taxation and contribution to this statistic.

    The lions share of actual work is performed by labourers from India/Myanmar, maids from the region and professionals from the Philippines and India. One company I worked for hired two elderly Singaporean women as maids for *each bathroom* in our office so we could increase our quota of productive foreign workers. Most companies also run intern schemes to pay Singaporean graduates $1200 per month to do filing in order to bump up the foreign worker quota allowance.

    Singapore is a micromanged nanny state, awash with very dodgy money, with a local populace that is experiencing a dramatic reduction in their standard of living as inflation has destroyed any gains that they may have made in the 80s and 90s.

    If you read sites such as http://www.tremeritus.com or http://www.theonlinecitizen.com , written by *actual* Singaporeans you will get a much clearer picture of the widespread dissatisfaction with the political and economic direction that Singapore has taken.

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  87. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I’ll bet they have liquor laws in Singapore too.

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  88. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    “How long have you lived in Singapore Redbaiter?”

    FFS..!! Did you read my message at 6:41 pm? All of what you have written is just off the point. I know there are people living in Singapore with narrow frames of reference who are unhappy with the state of things. I also know people from Singapore who have migrated to NZ and been utterly fed up with the tax rates and crime and violence and racism and returned to their homeland.

    But it really does not matter.

    My point remains. Singapore exists as a successful society, far more successful than NZ, because the work ethic and independent nature of its citizens has not been attacked by the welfare policies of predatory power obsessed socialist governments. That is the single point I strive to make and for some inexplicable reason seems to soar over the heads of most readers.

    Please try harder. Read my message at 6:41 pm. If you do not have a response that addresses this point please do not waste any more of my time.

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  89. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    because the work ethic and independent nature of its citizens has not been attacked by the welfare policies of predatory power obsessed socialist governments.

    duh

    If you wanted an example of a power obsessed socailist government you need look no further than Singapore. What the fuck is the matter with you? Singapore is ” A Brave New World”.

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  90. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    “What the fuck is the matter with you?”

    Nothing that would make me stupid enough to try and argue an issue with you Paula. That the point constantly escapes you is your problem not mine.

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  91. exile (34 comments) says:

    So, when is your housewarming party in Singapore, Redbaiter? Surely somebody of your intellect would climb to the top in such a paradise.

    As far as work ethic goes, why are companies paying Singaporean born interns on short term contracts to do fuck all? Because by doing so, they can hire more foreign workers who actually have a work ethic. Singaporean workers are so used to being nannied and micromanaged that they show almost no initiative, and will do exactly what they need to do in order to retain a job, and no more. Which is why we sack them at 45, too.

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  92. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    “As far as work ethic goes, why are companies paying Singaporean born interns on short term contracts to do fuck all?”

    You keep refusing to deal with the main point. I will try one more time, then i give up on the basis that I am just too tired to deal any more with low intellect people more simian than human.

    How many Singaporeans are paid unemployment benefit ie they sit at home and receive $500 a week or sometimes far more in benefits? 10,000? 20,000? In NZ it is 146,000.

    How many Singaporeans receive a sickness benefit? In NZ its about 60,000.

    How many solo mothers in Singapore are collecting money from the government to sit at home and do nothing? In NZ its about 100,000.

    Don’t you understand the point? All of these people NOT WORKING and sucking of the public tit breeds an underclass steeped in an entitlement mentality at the same time as it corrodes our social cohesion and creates a divisive backlash in that part of the community who has to work and pay taxes.

    It also results in broken families, drug dependency, a corrupted work ethic and high crime rates. (Compare the crime rates in Singapore with those in NZ)

    Socialists here tell us that a society cannot be civilised unless it indulges in this kind of lemming like self destruction.

    Yet Singapore exists without this so called safety net, and does not seem to suffer from its loss but actually seems to have a better society for want of it. Low crime. A self reliant population. Low taxes.

    That is the difference.

    Now if you’re going to reply, please tell me where you disagree with this hypothesis, and do not tell me things about Singapore that I already know such as you think it is authoritarian, undemocratic blah blah blah because it is not the fucking point.

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  93. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Red

    You are mind numbingly ignorant exile explains your paradise to you and you still carry on like a prawn.

    sad really, you’ve just been shot down into a flaming pile of shit and you are too ignorant to know when to STFU

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  94. Redbaiter (8,371 comments) says:

    Yes, of course I am always so impressed by the completely impartial adjudications of incoherent non-comprehending knuckle dragging commie trolls like you Paula. Of course I was shot down in flames. You’d know for certain, and of course be completely unbiased about such a call. Groan.

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  95. Colville (2,256 comments) says:

    Are ‘baiters minders sprinkling crank on his oatmeal just coz they think its funny to watch him rave?

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  96. Griff (7,408 comments) says:

    Reddy
    f off to Singapore.
    Yes the great leader was successful in transition from serfdom to ultra competitive society
    at what cost to freedom did and does still his ideology entail?
    Not happening here short of at gun point
    then again still a very short term endenvour
    Way to individualistic.
    Way way way short quick trip to an early and unlamented grave
    Round these parts
    kiwis
    are a liberal bunch.
    Both left and right are socal liberal
    the defining features of the left is its socialism in economic management increasing the tax take to waste most then return some as bribes.

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  97. exile (34 comments) says:

    At no stage have I ever claimed in my own posts that Singapore is authoritarian or undemocratic. That is your own interpretation.

    I have merely pointed out the many ways that the Singapore government directly contributes to the welfare of its citizens through massive subsidies on housing, healthcare and food.

    And how the Singapore government jukes its stats and claims that unemployment is low by calling anybody who receives the tiniest return on investment ‘employed’. And how outside of the million or so foreign workers, productivity per worker in Singapore is dire. this is one of the side effects of a society without a safety ned is a low risk/low innovation culture.

    But back to drinking:

    The low crime in Singapore has much more to do with the public housing that 85% of the population lives in too. There is almost no public space that is away from the gaze of other residents. The housing system is structured so you have to be in your 35 tears old to be eligible to purchase a flat as a single person, and even then, you can only purchase a resale flat at an unsubsidised open market price. Married couples must also sell their subsidised flats if they are divorced (or if one partner dies!) before 35, and after then, one must buy the other out with a bank mortgage.

    This is public housing as social engineering, shamelessly lifted from the works of the socialist architect Le Corbusier, run through with the Confucian concept of Fileal Piety.

    At the end of the day, living at home with your parents until you are 35 puts a real cramp on your lifestyle. It is also too hot to get up to any energetic youthful misadventure. Young people have nowhere to go, but home.

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  98. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    That was an entertaining exchange.

    To be fair to Reddy, for all his misrepresentaton of Singapore I think I can summarise his approach as contrasting the Singaporean model of an authoritarian welfare state with ours which is much more dependant on cash transfers to those not working. That’s a fair enough point to make, but whether it is useful to contrast the two states on such a narrow basis is debatable. Geographicaly, culturally and economically, Singapore and New Zealand are so different that such direct comparisons are of little use. It’s much more useful to compare NZ against OECD averages, and other broad measures of social and economic wellbeing.

    Where Reddy fell down most obviously in this thread though was coming in with the statement that ‘a society wherein people hold to their own moral standards and those standards are high enough there is no need for government regulation’ and then going on to laud Singapore, despite exile pointing out the contradicvtions in his assertions.

    To return to the ostensible point of the thread, I think we can conclude that Singapore provides very little guidance for Wellington in terms of liquor regulation.

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