An appalling interview

November 6th, 2013 at 1:00 pm by David Farrar

Stuff reports:

RadioLive hosts and have been accused of supporting culture and “victim blaming” after their treatment of a female caller who is a friend of an alleged victim of the Roast Busters group.

The 18-year-old woman, who called herself Amy, called the RadioLive show yesterday to talk to the pair about the Roast Busters, only to have the hosts describe the group’s online bragging about sexual encounters with drunk underage girls as “mischief”.

Amy was asked “how free and easy are you kids these days?” when she told Jackson and Tamihere she had attended parties the teenagers involved in Roast Busters were at, and she often saw them, sober, providing drinks to girls as young as 13.

The hosts discussed underage drinking, and why the girls were at parties without their parents’ consent. “Girls shouldn’t be drinking anyway, should they?”

The segment at the link is an appalling interview. It appeared to all be Willie Jackson, than JT – I presume there is a fuller version somewhere. But talking about whether a 13 year old girl has been drinking totally misses the point – they are 13, and they’re drunk. Even worse, it isn’t that both parties are drunk – this is young guys being stone cold sober and plying girls with alcohol.

Good on Amy for speaking up against the predatory behaviour of these students.

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172 Responses to “An appalling interview”

  1. dime (9,685 comments) says:

    Willie Jackson has an IQ approx 1 point higher than Forrest Gump.

    If Leighton Smith had have said all that there would be marching in the streets.

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  2. Pete George (23,354 comments) says:

    The full version has been taken down by RadioLive. Here is the link with comments only remaining:

    http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Friend-of-an-alleged-Roast-Busters-victim-calls-Willie–JT/tabid/506/articleID/38783/Default.aspx

    And Jackson, Tamihere and RadioLive seem to have just dug themselves deeper with an attempted apology.

    ‏@RadioLIVENZ

    AUDIO: Willie & JT apologise for handling of ‘Roast Busters’ caller “Amy”

    http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Friend-of-an-alleged-Roast-Busters-victim-calls-Willie–JT/tabid/506/articleID/38783/Default.aspx

    That was quickly condemned.

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  3. BeaB (2,085 comments) says:

    Our young men have great role models starting with the mayor, the media who demonise Chuang, the men who criticise her looks and the grubby jokes – boys look very closely at adult men and model themselves on them.
    Its too easy to blame internet porn. A good dad makes sure his boys know how to behave themselves and how to treat, and talk about, women.
    There are lots of decent guys, of all ages. They are good dads and husbands.
    Its the Len Browns of this world who set a dreadful example to impressionable youngsters.
    But its always easier to blame the girl. It started with Eve and gormless Adam.

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  4. Harriet (4,626 comments) says:

    “…..The hosts discussed underage drinking, and why the girls were at parties without their parents’ consent. “Girls shouldn’t be drinking anyway, should they?……”

    Fair comment.

    Then who is going to mitigate the risk in our sex culture society?

    16yld boys?

    LOL.

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  5. Pete George (23,354 comments) says:

    More from Stuff:

    The RadioLive hosts said that if “some” of the girls had consented, “that doesn’t make [the Roast Busters] rapists, does it?”

    They suggested that women who consented to sex may now “line up” to say they were raped as well.

    On today’s show, Jackson said that they “absolutely don’t condone the actions of the Roast Busters” and were simply trying to discuss complex issues.

    “We have no problems apologising to Amy for causing offence. Not a problem at all. We thought were sensitive yesterday, maybe we could have done a better job.

    “We’ve got the utmost respect for Amy for speaking out about her experience, it was an incredibly brave interview.”

    They could have done a much better job, but that’s not likely to happen with their very poor understanding of the topic.

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  6. Harriet (4,626 comments) says:

    “….A good dad makes sure his boys know how to behave themselves and how to treat, and talk about, women….”

    And while their daughters dress like sluts around horny teenage boys who live in our sex soaked society.

    16yld boys with morals – from where – religious parents?

    LOL…… you don’t want that either!

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  7. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    The true culprit is, has to, must be the “rape culture” that KB’s leading light has warned us about.

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  8. BeaB (2,085 comments) says:

    Harriet
    The are thousands of us who have brought up young men and women to be proud of. It has nothing to do with religion.
    Your comments are sensationalist and a bit creepy.

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  9. Pete George (23,354 comments) says:

    Not just me, far from it – Open Letter to John and Willie

    Tena korua John and Willie

    Yesterday we were sent the link to your radio programme of your discussion with ‘Amy’. Listening to your programme is a rare event in both of our whare. Why? Because the views you espouse are on the whole conservative, often ignorant and nearly always sexist. So we are not surprised with the misogynistic undertones of how you spoke to ‘Amy’.

    What is saddening is the fact that you seem to have absolutely no awareness or experience of the impact of rape on the lives of it’s victims and survivors.

    What is disturbing is that you show no empathy for the pain and ongoing distress caused by sexual violence on entire whanau.

    What is alarming is that with all the involvement you have in providing programmes within urban Maori communities that you remain ignorant of the destruction caused by rape culture.

    What is disconcerting is that you have no sense of understanding for how difficult it is to talk to others about being raped, about sexual violence, about family violence let alone what it means to be 14, 15 or 16 years old.

    What is disgusting is that you seem to revel in the deep-seated ignorance on these issues.

    Rape, whether it be of a woman abducted, or of a mother catching a bus home after work, or of a young woman out for drinks with her friends, or of any woman in her own home by someone she knows – is rape.

    Rape, John and Willie, is rape.

    Rape, John, is not about “how free and easy are you kids out there these days”.

    Rape, Willie, is not about how you are too young to have a drink out with friends.

    Rape has nothing to do with if they are good looking. ‘Good looking’ men rape too Willie.

    Rape – John and Willie – is rape.

    Your continual use of media to promote sexist, anti-Maori women sentiments, and rape culture can only be a reflection of your own beliefs about women. There is no other reason for the flow of misogynistic diatribe that falls so easily from your mouths.

    This is not the first time that you have both supported rapists or deeply offensive sexist behaviour. It is a consistent activity on your part. Dismissal of women, marginalisation of Maori women and the promotion of male supremacy is commonplace on your shows and in your commentary. This is not the first time we have called you out on that.

    These girls and young women are peoples’ friends, daughters, sisters, cousins, grandaughters. Women raped by those men you support and promote are daughters, sisters, cousins, grandaughters. That is what you are promoting Willy and John. You are supporting and promoting a rape culture that lays blame at the feet of those women who should in society be free to have a drink, wear whatever they wish, go out with friends and feel safe to do so.

    You need to think of all the women in your whanau and in your circles, John and Willie. You need to see the act of rape as an act of abuse, an act of power and an act that instills fear, and act that impacts on all women, on all wahine Maori including all those wahine within your own whanau. Perhaps then you would be less dismissive of their pain and less promoting of the violent acts being perpetuated everyday on our wahine.

    There were some pertinent questions you could have asked yesterday to instead call our rape culture, our systemic enforcement of it and our everyday sexism to account. We never expected this of you both because that takes real journalism.

    Both of you alongside Radio Live AT THE LEAST owe a formal and unconditional apology to all who have experienced sexual abuse and rape. You owe an apology to their families. You owe an apology to any human who has been disgusted by your remarks yesterday and your attitude towards ‘Amy’ and all like her.

    Yesterday we put out a public call to Radio Live for Marama Davidson to talk on your show but not to debate the validity of your attitude. There is no argument there. You are simply wrong and likely to have caused further harm to any person triggered by your ignorance. We would have appreciated the chance to be a voice to unpick that harm and call you to account and most importanly, to stand in support of ‘Amy’ and all like her. We are still waiting for your invite……..

    We hope you have the sense to reflect on your actions. We hope you and Radio Live at th least offer a formal apology.

    Na matou
    Te Wharepora Hou Maori Women’s Group
    Dr Leonie Pihama and Marama Davidson

    http://tewhareporahou.wordpress.com/2013/11/05/open-letter-to-john-and-willie/

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  10. Paul Williams (877 comments) says:

    I’d encourage people to lodge a formal complaint. I have. If Tamihere things he might re-enter politics, he might want to first join the 21st century.

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  11. Pete George (23,354 comments) says:

    A cached copy of the original interview

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  12. Harriet (4,626 comments) says:

    “{….And while their daughters dress like sluts around horny teenage boys who live in our sex soaked society…..}

    So why don’t you answer that question Bea…….you expect boys to have respect for girls……….yet boys are expected to restrain themselves from their NATURAL sexual urges while disrespectful girls dress like sluts around them!

    Don’t you want true equality of the sexes Bea?

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  13. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    There is a whole bunch of nested assumptions being made here. No one has been found guilty of rape.

    Some people are assuming all the allegations are true to shame those with enquiring minds into silence and to promote the anti male narrative. The only way to find the facts is to ask questions and investigate with an open mind. Assuming guilty from the outset is not the way to do that.

    Once again we see freedom of speech being restricted because someone claims to be “offended”. Must be a slow news week…

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  14. E. Campbell (90 comments) says:

    Shocking lack of judgement on their part. Has probably destroyed any remaining political ambitions they may have had. It won’t improve their show’s abysmal ratings either.

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  15. Pete George (23,354 comments) says:

    you expect boys to have respect for girls…

    Yes, they should. Many manage to.

    …….yet boys are expected to restrain themselves from their NATURAL sexual urges

    Yes, and so are girls, men and women expected to restrain themselves. How people dress is immaterial.

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  16. dime (9,685 comments) says:

    Harriet – its fair to say Dime is a dirtbag :D

    Dime managed to get through his teen years without raping some poor girl.

    Harriet the islamist “girls in mini skirts will get raped. its like having a pie cooling down outside and expecting the cat not to get to it”

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  17. RightNow (6,844 comments) says:

    Rape or not, I hope they’re using contraception. Breeding would be the worst outcome.

    Hargreaves and four of her friends appeared on TV3 last night, speaking out on behalf of the group. They said Hales and Parker were “not rapists” but “cool dudes”, and that drunken group sex was actually “normal in West Auckland”.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9367982/Roast-Busters-female-defenders

    They should put a contraceptive in the water supply.

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  18. RRM (9,670 comments) says:

    Sugar Pop (Odessa)

    She
    was last seen out drinking
    it was early – about 11 o’clock
    And he
    was tall well-dressed I would guess maybe thirty
    She
    was a little bit flattered by his attentions
    when suddenly everything went hazy and he
    began to show his true intentions

    Sugar pop etc (chorus)

    Oh and now they’re talking about it
    she
    said she could not remember exactly
    but an article in the tuesday morning paper this week
    simply said she was drugged and raped in an alley
    police
    are asking the public for information
    have you seen anyone who fits this loose description
    but it could be anybody, anybody

    Sugar pop etc (chorus)

    No street, no city, no town,
    is so small that you can, that you can know all its secrets
    and if you did, if you did, I bet you’ve got some secrets of your own
    of your own
    of your own, of your own, yeah…

    Sugar pop etc (chorus)

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  19. Longknives (4,686 comments) says:

    What is the ethnicity of the alleged offenders?
    Worth noting that WJ and JT will generally defend any Tangata Whenua offender as ‘innocent” and ‘oppressed by the man’ etc etc

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  20. kowtow (7,976 comments) says:

    No it’s not nearly as simple as “there’s good role models out there” and “children look to their parents”.

    In itself that is of course true,however for the past 50 years at least there has been a deliberate move to weaken and question parental authority.To demonise religious and traditional teaching ,to tell children it is normal to rebel,to have rights ,to do essentially what they like.

    Society has created a new category of person ,the teenager.That is a modern construct.

    While the vast majority of parents seek to instill their values in their children ,we struggle against the government (no discipline at home) media,entertainment,internet,video game,so called sexual freedom revolution,human rightism and drug culture industry .

    It really is an irresistable tide of negativity.

    Adam and Eve? No that’s not a plot to blame women .It’s actually a kind of morality story that shows we all have free will and that the choices we make have consequences. Too bad that ancient , timeless morality (whether you believe in God or not ) has been discarded.

    We reap as we sow.

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  21. Linda Reid (409 comments) says:

    Rape is not a natural sexual urge.

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  22. TheContrarian (1,082 comments) says:

    I managed to get to my early 30′s without raping anyone or even acting inappropriately towards woman. It’s pretty easy to restrain oneself Kea.

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  23. Keeping Stock (10,185 comments) says:

    @ Pete George (1.06pm) – a brief apology through pursed lips followed immediately by a lengthy self-justification does not constitute an apology in my book.

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  24. dime (9,685 comments) says:

    “What is the ethnicity of the alleged offenders?”

    Just asked the same thing on twitter. Bros can do no wrong.

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  25. Pete George (23,354 comments) says:

    Kea:No one has been found guilty of rape.

    That’s right, although there has been a degree of self-incrimination. And one has been found innocent.

    Repeated:

    The RadioLive hosts said that if “some” of the girls had consented, “that doesn’t make [the Roast Busters] rapists, does it?”

    They suggested that women who consented to sex may now “line up” to say they were raped as well.

    E. Campbell is right: “Shocking lack of judgement on their part.”

    And a demonstration of their ignorance.

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  26. Dean Papa (782 comments) says:

    It’s a pity RadioLive have given in to the hysterical and angry mob and taken the link down. Because these things need to be taken in context. JT and Willie are good and decent men, who are now being demonised. It is a disgrace, but typical of the ugly and vicious lynch mob mentality of this sad little country. Having heard the full interview I can say that JT and Willie did their best. If they are guilty of anything it is naivety. Give them a break. If you were permitted to listen to the interview and hear the tone in their voices you’d realise that there was nothing accusatory about anything they said. They were doing their best to understand a situation that was clearly perplexing to them. Sure, they said that 13 and 14 year old girls should not be drinking. It was a part of the discussion in which they were searching for explanations as to why the victims did not make any complaints to the police. According to Amy it was because they were at these parties without the permission of their parents, and were drinking, and so were reluctant to make a complaint. Of course if you have not heard the interview you will not be able to hear any of this. Thanks to this hysterical and vengeful country we live in.

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  27. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I just listened to the interview.

    This fake outrage (and it is clearly fake) appears to be fueled by the idea that all claims of rape should be accepted 100% without question and with no evidence. The idea that to question the facts before assuming guilt is itself a crime.

    Listening to this it sounds like a beat up and a few girls developing retrospective morals as they mature. I am not buying it. It sounds like silly young people doing the silly things that young people do.

    Further evidence that NZ is a nation of pussy whipped grovelling men. It is no wonder kiwi girls regard kiwi men with such utter contempt and distain, while romatising over men from macho foreign cultures.

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  28. BeaB (2,085 comments) says:

    Oh dear Harriet, where to start?
    First of all, well said Linda Reid.
    Perhaps our girls should wear the sacks Muslim women are stuffed into so they won’t inflame men’s ‘natural’ urges and lusts.
    Should we stop our teens wearing bikinis at the beach, shorts to the supermarket, halter tops in town?
    You sound like a throwback to the 50′s when we were taught it was the responsibility of girls to control men’s lusts.
    Most men would never ever force themselves on a girl, never cause pain or terror, never take advantage of a girl who is drunk, never take a summer dress as an invitation to rape.
    Thank goodness we have so many good blokes with sound values who can admire a pretty girl without having to hit on her.
    I wonder what Len Brown teaches his daughters about men because that’s where we learn our values, in the home from our mums and dads?

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  29. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    PG, no serious wrong dong has yet been proven, but you have made up your mind anyway. After listening to one anonymous talk back caller you seem to think you know it all.

    I heard the anonymous caller too and are even less concerned than before.

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  30. kowtow (7,976 comments) says:

    Why do the apologists here keep making this out to be about promiscuous women and boys being boys?

    That is not the issue here.

    In this instance it is about stupefied underage girls being raped by nasty selfish gangsta wannabes.

    Rape.

    And two racist media hacks pretending nothing has happened.Brown wash.

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  31. RRM (9,670 comments) says:

    I wonder what Len Brown teaches his daughters about men?

    The money shot is an effective form of contraception?

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  32. Philonz (91 comments) says:

    Harriet. I was a teenage boy once. I was often in the company of teenage girls, dressed in all manner of clothing, sometimes drunk. I never once raped anyone.

    It doesn’t matter how they were dressed, what tattoos they had, how drunk they were, their parentage, religious or political beliefs, whether they were ‘A’ students or dropouts. Rape is rape and is entirely the fault of the rapist.

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  33. david (2,555 comments) says:

    At the risk of being shouted down, if you can put aside the fact that if it happened, it was rape; some of these are legitimate questions that need to be asked of the young women in our society and of their parents. The timing (ie in conjunction with the Roastbusters thing) is totally shit as it makes it really easy to construe the questions as a diversion of blame. But exposure dis needed for the facts about the pressures on young people today.

    Back in the late ’60s as part of a communications/public presentation course, I presented on the declining age of puberty in the Western World. IIRC the average had dropped in the previous 50 years from 14.5 years to just under 13 yrs as reported by Scientific American in about 1966. I strongly suspect that it is now somewhere between 10 and 12 and associated with this has been the sexualisation of young females through their clothing, public idols (singers and actresses), literature, movie plots, availability of behavioural examples ( online porn) not to mention pressures to conform to unrealistic “ideals” and the huge amount of hormones flowing through the environment through use of the pill and (possibly) stockfood fed to the food we eat.

    Us wrinklies do need to understand these factors and what it is that drives 13 year olds to be out getting pissed and you can’t say that the consequences of that were a secret to at least some of them.

    Essentially they are the same questions that need to be answered relative to why young feral males think it is cool to pour alcohol down the throats of young girls then have sex with the limp bodies.

    Perhaps we don’t shine enough sunlight on the realities of teenagers lives and need to open up the discussions as is being attempted with suicide.

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  34. Pete George (23,354 comments) says:

    Kea – I haven’t made up my mind yet, but you seem to have made up your mind about innocence.

    What many people regard as serious wrongdoing has been admitted by the boys. There’s a question about whether it’s able to be proven illegal or rape, but neither can be dismissed at this stage going by what is known.

    The boys have openly admitted getting girls drunk and having group sex with them. Some have said it was consensual, some have claimed it was not consensual. Tamihere and Jackson implied that because some consented then no rape occurred, that’s a serious error of judgement.

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  35. TheContrarian (1,082 comments) says:

    “The boys have openly admitted getting girls drunk and having group sex with them”

    I think you mean “The boys have openly admitted getting girls drunk with the purpose of having group sex with them”

    Also Kea, rape aside, having sex with a 13 year old girl is illegal – regardless of consent.

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  36. kowtow (7,976 comments) says:

    david

    Good comment.Don’t worry about the risk of being shouted down.There’s a coterie of very regular commenters on this blog who club together to do just that,to shout you down,to mock and insult,in an attempt to cow opposition to their views.

    Speak up ,well done.

    There are really big issues out there and we are losing a lot of our young people to an alien culture from South LA ,ably assisted by our media ,who while on the one hand are all faux outrage on this (TV3) are more than happy to blast rap out constantly.

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  37. dime (9,685 comments) says:

    “Back in the late ’60s as part of a communications/public presentation course, I presented on the declining age of puberty in the Western World”

    How old are you dude? struth

    Kea – i hear what youre saying. “slut remorse” is nothing new. there are some evil women out there who will happily ruin a mans life to feel better about themselves.

    BUT these two homos need a bash.

    When you were 18, did you look at 13 year olds and think “id love to hit that”

    They are wannabe little faggots who need a bash.

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  38. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Kea – I haven’t made up my mind yet, but you seem to have made up your mind about innocence.

    PG, no, but innocence is in fact the correct starting assumption.

    I am not soft on rape and I in no way approve of this sort of carry-on. But pillorising men and lynch mobs are not the way to deal with it.

    To my mind this whole thing indicates a serious culture problem, regardless of any criminal offence.

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  39. Lance (2,570 comments) says:

    For all those that are saying “they have not been proved guilty yet so lay off”; well that might be a suitable argument if some girls came forward and made a rape compliant and the nation had not heard of the offenders in question.
    But these FUCKWITS bragged about pack rape by stupefaction on Facebook, not only bragging in public but mocking and denigrating the victims on a continuing and continuous basis

    If you can’t tell the difference here then you can’t tell shit from clay.

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  40. TheContrarian (1,082 comments) says:

    “But these FUCKWITS bragged about pack rape by stupefaction on Facebook, not only bragging in public but mocking and denigrating the victims on a continuing and continuous basis”

    One them self-described themselves as a rapist

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  41. Cunningham (829 comments) says:

    The left howled in outrage at Paul Henry and bought him down for his comments. Will they do the same for this dumb and dumber duo?

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  42. King Kong (36 comments) says:

    It is heart warming to see how many blokes on here have had the opportunity to do a bit of raping but have passed up on it.

    I suspect that having the urge to rape is similar to being a homo or a pedo…you are just born that way.

    It is also interesting how the admission by one 16 year old boy that he had sex with a 13 year old girl has morphed into a fact that these guys went around Auckland pack raping chicks. This has definitely got a lynch mob feel to it.

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  43. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    dime I started at 13 with girls my own age. When I was 18 I was dating girls in their 20′s. I was pretty green and I was shocked how forward girls were when I first started going out.

    I agree they are little punks and need to be stopped. It is very bad form.

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  44. Pete George (23,354 comments) says:

    innocence is in fact the correct starting assumption.

    Not when the starting point is two people bragging about what they have done and have got away with doing and if they and what has been posted on their Facebook pages are to be believed it is clearly very sleazy at best. They are guilty of scummy behaviour as a starting point.

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  45. david (2,555 comments) says:

    dime – 65 and proud of it but by god time flies when you are having fun. As to the presentation it was a year 2 course in extension at Ag College which is shorthand for communication of concepts and techniques to audiences comprising mostly of farmers and their staff.

    But then the Vietnam War was still running, Elvis was still in the building and beer was the strongest drug I was exposed to.

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  46. Pete George (23,354 comments) says:

    Russell Brown ‏@publicaddress
    To be clear, a schoolgirl called Willie & JT to talk about a gang of predatory rapists. And they asked her when she lost her virginity.

    David Fisher ‏@DFisherJourno
    To be clearer, these men are role models and community leaders in the community where this rape gang is operating.

    Putting aside the question of whether it can be legally proven as rape or not Jackson and Tamihere are clearly guilty of being poor role models in their own community.

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  47. kowtow (7,976 comments) says:

    Can anyone reconcile kea’s 145 with his 217? Troll.

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  48. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    kowtow, easy.

    One is about crime the other about the general morality.

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  49. emmess (1,400 comments) says:

    Can I ask does anyone know what Roastbusters means anyway?

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  50. Manolo (13,517 comments) says:

    No doubt this individual is a beast and an animal, a true product of “modern” culture: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9364531/Roast-Buster-accused-bragged-about-group-sex

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  51. cha (3,856 comments) says:

    Can I ask does anyone know what Roastbusters means anyway

    Well you did ask.

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  52. TheContrarian (1,082 comments) says:

    “a true product of “modern” culture:”

    Because rape is a recent problem?

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  53. Judith (8,466 comments) says:

    @ Harriet (2,907) Says:
    November 6th, 2013 at 1:12 pm

    My god, you do live in a bubble.

    When I was a young teenager, it was the boys of religious parents that were the worst!

    In fact, I can think of a certain MP whose father was a minister of the church whose older siblings took some ‘taming’.
    And I remember the Minister’s daughter from St Matthews in the City, who had a terrible drug problem and had to be removed from several disgusting sexual situations during the 70′s – you really do need to mix with real people more often.

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  54. King Kong (36 comments) says:

    “Can I ask does anyone know what Roastbusters means anyway”

    Roasting is slang for more than one guy doing one bird. It is a derivative of pig on a spit (use your imagination) which goes to spit roasting or just roasting.

    Busters probably has some gansta meaning along the lines of “bust a cap in your ass” or “bust one in your face” (to ejaculate on a ladies visage)

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  55. Judith (8,466 comments) says:

    @ TheContrarian (943) Says:
    November 6th, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    It’s only been around since humankind evolved from the apes – in the bigger picture that’s not long. I guess before that it was a non-consentual form of beastiality.

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  56. TheContrarian (1,082 comments) says:

    That busters was in reference to Ghostbusters I believe (there was an image of the ghostbusters symbol on the now defunct facebook page)

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  57. SGA (961 comments) says:

    King Kong at 2:49 pm

    “Can I ask does anyone know what Roastbusters means anyway”
    Busters probably has some gansta meaning along the lines of “bust a cap in your ass” or “bust one in your face” (to ejaculate on a ladies visage)

    Or, perhaps, “Roastbusters” is simply a rhyming play on “Ghostbusters” (or not).

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  58. dime (9,685 comments) says:

    emmess – what a sheltered life you’ve led :P

    “when there a drunk child
    in your neighborhood
    who ya gonna call
    roastbusters”

    Its fair to say their chances of getting jobs must be slim. in this world of google..

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  59. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    I find the left wing media’s sexist stance appalling.

    It is a different story with a male victim.

    The has been a couple of cases of women in their 30s hav3 sex with underage boys involving alcohol in at least one case.

    The penalty was non custodial and permanent name suppression. The media was very quiet on that and some idiot men thought the boys should consider themselves lucky. I just remembers the one cow got pregnant.

    Then there was the case of Dirty Darren. He did something similar with an unsuspecting young man. It is fairly obvious something like that happened. Why else would a young man run naked now the street. If it was a female victim I am sure the MP would have been charged – at least if he was a male MP.

    What does the left wing liberal media say? The say he still could have a future as a Labour MP. If he stands i will be a meeting calling that sexual predator Dirty Darren.

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  60. Ryan Sproull (7,075 comments) says:

    Then there was the case of Dirty Darren. He did something similar with an unsuspecting young man. It is fairly obvious something like that happened. Why else would a young man run naked now the street.

    Chuck, there is a difference between what you consider to be fairly obvious and what is the video-documented, publicly admitted and boasted actions of a group whose stated purpose is to commit sexual assault.

    In fact, it’s quite a big difference.

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  61. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    RadioLive hosts Willie Jackson and John Tamihere have been accused of supporting rape culture.

    How can you be accused of supporting something that doesn’t exist?

    “Rape Culture” is the product of some second rater’s social science doctoral thesis; not the result of genuine empirical investigation. It’s a propaganda term designed to remove all ambiguity and complexity from discussions of the causes of sex crime and to direct all thought to favour a somewhat odd and ideological approach to sex crime.

    But these FUCKWITS bragged about pack rape by stupefaction on Facebook, not only bragging in public but mocking and denigrating the victims on a continuing and continuous basis.

    Teenage boys NEVER lie about their sexual exploits… never.

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  62. Ryan Sproull (7,075 comments) says:

    Teenage boys NEVER lie about their sexual exploits… never.

    Tom, what reason would teenage boys have to lie about their sexual exploits? What would they hope to gain?

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  63. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    Tom, what reason would teenage boys have to lie about their sexual exploits? What would they hope to gain?

    Are you a visitor to our planet?

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  64. Longknives (4,686 comments) says:

    “Tom, what reason would teenage boys have to lie about their sexual exploits? What would they hope to gain?”

    Jesus Ryan- Did you actually just say that??

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  65. Ryan Sproull (7,075 comments) says:

    Are you a visitor to our planet?

    It sometimes feels that way.

    I assume you’re thinking of teenage boys lying about their sexual exploits to get respect, acceptance, approval and admiration from their peers?

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  66. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Look at all these creepy old buggers making a HUGE show of being oppossed to rape, as if it is a novel position, or elevates them above “other” men.

    See what great guys they are ladies ?

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  67. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    So Ryan, we have trial by media. Or maybe we should skip trials altogether if someone brags about something that may or may not have happened.

    Dirty Darren had form as a sexual predator.

    What reason would a yonng man run down the street naked?

    Tom Jackson made a point in his post.

    Under our legislation there is not enough evidence to prosecute the boys or Dirty Darren. Some other boys associated with the ring leaders may well not be guilty of anything but bad behavior.

    On the balance of probability I think some of the boys and Dirty Darren are both equally guilty.

    If Rodney Hide had done his job a made a complaint when Hughes hit on the ACT staffer the more serious assault probably would not have happened. The same applies to Phil Goff and Annette King.

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  68. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    I assume you’re thinking of teenage boys lying about their sexual exploits to get respect, acceptance, approval and admiration from their peers?

    You forgot: “to shock and appall ‘polite society’”.

    I don’t doubt that these guys are douchebags – they themselves have provided irrefutable evidence of this. As to whether they committed any sexual crimes that should be the subject of prosecution, no genuine evidence has yet been provided. It’s telling that the police won’t prosecute. Being a douchebag is alas not yet a crime.

    Meanwhile, every man and his dog has been howling that these guys are certainly rapists, and thus should be beaten up and castrated – all of this based upon somewhat sensationalised media reports about the case.

    Some of us like to see actual evidence before baying for blood.

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  69. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    Look at all these creepy old buggers making a HUGE show of being oppossed to rape, as if it is a novel position, or elevates them above “other” men.

    Perhaps they’re continually being told that because they don’t believe to the letter some mindless women’s studies claptrap, that they therefore approve of violent sexual assault.

    That is the level of debate in our country.

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  70. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    What reason would a yonng man run down the street naked?

    He lost a particularly bad wager?

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  71. Ryan Sproull (7,075 comments) says:

    Tom,

    I was noting that the irony in your comment simultaneously dismissing rape culture as non-existent and placing the drugging and rape of girls as the kind of lie that teenage boys might tell to appear awesome to their mates.

    Not quite so bad if you meant that these boys might instead only be lying in order to shock and appal polite society, not at all to impress their peers.

    Is that what you meant?

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  72. Ryan Sproull (7,075 comments) says:

    I’m trying to think of an analogy, because there are three things going on here.

    1. The alleged actions of these men
    2. The fact that such a group exists, with members saying the kinds of things they say, whether or not they are lying about their alleged crimes
    3. The way that (1) and (2) are being approached and talked about publicly (e.g., Willie and JT)

    It is not inconsistent to be angry about (2) and (3) while still agreeing that (1) is a matter for a trial to decide.

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  73. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    I was noting that the irony in your comment simultaneously dismissing rape culture as non-existent and placing the drugging and rape of girls as the kind of lie that teenage boys might tell to appear awesome to their mates.

    There’s no irony, as their behaviour is not culturally determined. The reason that teenage boys behave in an offensive and anti-social manner is almost certainly not down to any culture, since it appears to be a species universal. These boys behave this way for much the same reason that young hoons spend Saturday night trying to break traffic laws and blaring misogynistic hip hop music – it’s about signalling themselves to the community as a force to be reckoned with.

    There’s no cultural fix for this, and probably no fix at all other than castration at a young age (which some feminists in the 70s actually favoured).

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  74. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    It is not inconsistent to be angry about (2) and (3) while still agreeing that (1) is a matter for a trial to decide.

    Of course not. You are absolutely right.

    But if you say that on some blogs (e.g. Public Address: the home of NZ’s perpetual hand wringers) they will likely accuse you of being an apologist for rape.

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  75. Ryan Sproull (7,075 comments) says:

    There’s no irony, as their behaviour is not culturally determined. The reason that teenage boys behave in an offensive and anti-social manner is almost certainly not down to any culture, since it appears to be a species universal. These boys behave this way for much the same reason that young hoons spend Saturday night trying to break traffic laws and blaring misogynistic hip hop music – it’s about signalling themselves to the community as a force to be reckoned with.

    There’s no cultural fix for this, and probably no fix at all other than castration at a young age (which some feminists in the 70s actually favoured).

    I don’t disagree with a lot of this. But even if you were not suggesting that teenage boys might brag about committing sexual assault, there are certainly many people in our society who wouldn’t blink if they were told that teenage boys were lying about committing sexual assault in order to look cool to their peers.

    I apologise for assuming that you meant teenage boys lie about their sexual exploits in order to look cool to their mates, rather than intentionally trying to do something society has told them is wrong as a way of shocking and appalling.

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  76. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    If it’s ever possible for a genuine scientific consensus about rape to come into being in western societies such as ours, I’m pretty sure that the results will show that virtually all rapes are committed by a very small group of men with psychopathic tendencies, that culturally specific beliefs only really determines to a small degree how easy it is for them to hide their crimes and virtually nothing to do with why they rape, and that the only thing that we as a society can do is make our social institutions such that it is very difficult for these guys to get women into vulnerable situations.

    The idea that people rape because “society” or “culture” tells them to, seems to me to be wholly specious when applied to NZ. If you want places where real rape cultures exist, go to the Middle East. But those examples just show how insane it is to claim that NZ has a rape culture.

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  77. Yvette (2,745 comments) says:

    Jackson and Tamihere are clearly guilty of being poor role models in their own community.

    Not by the benchmark set by the much higher prestigious position of Auckland Mayor Len Brown

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  78. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    I apologise for assuming that you meant teenage boys lie about their sexual exploits in order to look cool to their mates, rather than intentionally trying to do something society has told them is wrong as a way of shocking and appalling.

    Don’t apologise. :)

    I meant both in that one way to look cool to your mates is to portray yourself as a badass to the rest of society.

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  79. Ryan Sproull (7,075 comments) says:

    Of course not. You are absolutely right.

    But if you say that on some blogs (e.g. Public Address: the home of NZ’s perpetual hand wringers) they will likely accuse you of being an apologist for rape.

    Maybe, but I doubt it. I think it’s more likely that one would get accused of being an apologist for rape if one spoke as if the events occurred, but that the girls were partly to blame for what was done to them. That is the main reason for people’s anger against Willie and JT – not just that they asked the questions, but that by asking the questions they implied that the questions were relevant, and they could only be relevant if there was some question of girls being partly responsible for the actions of their assailants.

    It’s like asking the victim of a neo-Nazi assault – “How Jewish were you acting? Did you speak any Hebrew? Wear a yarmulke? Were you walking in a particularly antisemitic area of town?” We don’t ask those questions, because they imply that anyone other than the assailant is responsible for the assailant’s actions. But there is a common conscious or unconscious attitude in our society that women are to blame for the actions of men around them.

    You don’t have to look further than Harriet’s 1.24pm comment on this thread for an example.

    It’s that attitude that is the focus of a lot of the outrage today. Which is confusing a lot of people who don’t see it at all, because they assume that all of the outrage is directed at the accused men.

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  80. Ryan Sproull (7,075 comments) says:

    I meant both in that one way to look cool to your mates is to portray yourself as a badass to the rest of society.

    I see what you mean. Let’s hope that this is a case of teenage boys lying to impress, then, rather than actually having planned and committed sexual assault and then bragged about it.

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  81. Paul Marsden (990 comments) says:

    NZ is making the front page of CNN news again, and for all the wrong reasons.

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  82. Pete George (23,354 comments) says:

    Even if they have just been lying to impress they are promoting behaviour that other young people may then see as being approved by peers.

    But anyway a number of people have indicated that there may be some truth to the boys’ claims – the police have had concerns, they say they have spoken to a number of potential victims and have said a lack of a complainant is what is stopping them from prosecuting,

    ‘Amy’ on Radiolive said she knew of a girl who may have been raped. And a number of other girls have said in an interview (TV3 last night) that they know it goes on a lot and it’s just what young people do.

    So there seems to be much more to it than a bit of social media bravado.

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  83. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    It’s that attitude that is the focus of a lot of the outrage today.

    Well, I don’t buy this either. I think that the accusation of “victim blaming” is usually confused. I did listen to a bit of Willie and JT, but I was on my way to a job, and didn’t pay much attention, and the whole thing has apparently now been taken down.

    See what you think of this:

    It strikes me that when people talk about victim blaming they are unconsciously conflating two different and incommensurable kinds of blame: moral blame and prudential blame.

    Moral blame is what you accrue when you do something morally wrong, such as stealing a car or committing a rape. Prudential blame is what you accrue when you do something stupid that puts you at risk, such as leaving your keys in your car.

    That they are different is easy to see: if you get away with committing a theft or a rape, nobody thinks that you should escape the consequences. Indeed, you should be hunted down and forced to accept the appropriate punishment.

    On the other hand, if you leave your keys in your car and it doesn’t get stolen, only a lunatic would say that you must leave your car out until someone does steal it just to teach you a lesson.

    Of course, there are limits to when you should pull people up for prudential failures. Growling your kid for not locking his bike up and it getting stolen is probably OK. Growling your kid for skateboarding in the wrong place when he’s lost a leg under a truck would make you an asshole.

    The problem cases are when people’s prudential failures put them at risk of criminal victimisation. That you left your keys in your car doesn’t make what the criminal did one whit more acceptable, but the same fact doesn’t mean its fine to leave your keys in your car. You aren’t being morally blamed for the crime, but blamed for taking a silly risk.

    Much of the talk of victim blaming ignores this subtlety.

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  84. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    But anyway a number of people have indicated that there may be some truth to the boy’s claims – the police have had concerns, they say they have spoken to a number of potential victims and have said a lack of a complainant is what is stopping them from prosecuting,

    ‘Amy’ on Radiolive said she knew of a girl who may have been raped. And a number of other girls have said in an interview (TV3 last night) that they know it goes on a lot and it’s just what young people do.

    It’s still hearsay.

    The police have all but begged for a complainant. What else can they do?

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  85. Judith (8,466 comments) says:

    @ Tom Jackson (1,730) Says:
    November 6th, 2013 at 5:01 pm

    Yes, and in portraying yourself as ‘bad ass’ to the rest of society, including other easily influenced adolescents, you are encouraging the behaviour, whether or not it is actually true that you have taken part in it or not.

    Other adolescents read that crap, see how ‘popular’ the boys are with their following of skanky friends and think ‘hey, if we do that, maybe we can be popular too’. Then there is the ‘shock factor’. Currently adults are disgusted by the behaviour – what a great way to get at Mum and Dad – act the same.

    Regardless of whether the acts actually happened or not – promoting that sort of behaviour on social media is stupid, irresponsible and demonstrates a very dangerous attitude.

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  86. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Thoughtful people will be asking themselves; What motivates a man to post obsessively his opposition to rape ?

    Pete George & Ryan Sproull, Most of us consider it a terrible crime and assume others feel the same. We feel no need to stand on a soap box and repeatedly shout our opposition to rape, like some kind of mantra.

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  87. Judith (8,466 comments) says:

    It’s still hearsay.

    The police have all but begged for a complainant. What else can they do?

    No it is not. A group of young women who know the boys well stated very clearly that they do ‘do that stuff’, but that they don’t personally regard it as rape because the girls by meeting the boys are consenting, so therefore in their opinion, although the boys are wrong, and really nice guys, they are not rapists.

    Then there is the victim that won’t lay a complaint but has stated she was raped whilst intoxicated and underage. Even if she wasn’t drunk, being underage makes it a crime. However, she won’t lay a complaint, and who would blame her – rape victims are treated appallingly by many in society who like you – like to believe that white middle class males are not capable of such acts. Blame the victim, it’s her fault for being young and immature. Sure she was dead stupid to meet with them, but I’m damn sure the invitation never said “come see us so we can get you drunk and four of us have sex with you, pee on you and put toothpaste inside you”. Being a victim of rape or sexual assault in our judicial system is a tramatic experience – and one I would not recommend any person to go through unless they were mature enough to understand the issues that arise.

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  88. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “Other adolescents read that crap, see how ‘popular’ the boys are with their following of skanky friends”

    Judith, Like their numerous “skanky” female friends that are lining up to hang out with them ? [At least that is what a "victim" claimed, but maybe she was lying ?]

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  89. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “Being a victim of rape or sexual assault in our judicial system is a tramatic experience – and one I would not recommend any person to go through unless they were mature enough to understand the issues that arise.”

    I am imagine the victims of the hundreds of false rape complaints agree with you Judith !

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  90. Ryan Sproull (7,075 comments) says:

    Thoughtful people will be asking themselves; What motivates a man to post obsessively his opposition to rape ?

    Pete George & Ryan Sproull, Most of us consider it a terrible crime and assume others feel the same. We feel no need to stand on a soap box and repeatedly shout our opposition to rape, like some kind of mantra.

    Kea, can you point out where I have stated an opposition to rape?

    And if not, can you provide some conjecture on what it says about you that you see statements of opposition to rape where there are none?

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  91. Pete George (23,354 comments) says:

    We feel no need to stand on a soap box and repeatedly shout our opposition to rape, like some kind of mantra.

    Don’t be a dick Kea, no one has done that. You seem to have an obsession with minimising rape and trying to treat women as inferior objects – like

    Kea (8,768) Says:
    November 6th, 2013 at 3:57 pm

    I see Labour assume certain things about a person based on gender.

    I do too. That is why I think the experiment of giving women the vote has failed.

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/11/labours_gender_quotas.html#comment-1229149

    You trash women and you trash anyone who calls you on it.

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  92. Judith (8,466 comments) says:

    @ Kea (8,767) Says:
    November 6th, 2013 at 5:27 pm

    You are not a fool. Rape does exist in society. I agree with you that there are situations in which females put themselves in that are unfair to men and set them up, but there are other issues here, one of them influencing their peers in a very negative manner.

    Some of the girls named on that site were only 13 year of age. I don’t know if you have a daughter or not, but how would you feel if she, like many young people sneaked out to meet some friends, was plied with alcohol and had four or more males treat her to a ‘roasting’? Do you seriously believe that a 13 year old is capable of making an informed and educated decision regarding taking part in such behaviour? What if that was your daughter/sister/cousin?

    It is the ages and the fact the females were intoxicated that makes it so unacceptable – and if Ryan and others feel the same way, then good on them for speaking out. Perhaps they have sisters or daughters the same age.

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  93. Dean Papa (782 comments) says:

    What motivated Graham Capill to relentlessly pontificate on and on about family values?

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  94. kowtow (7,976 comments) says:

    Dean crapa

    That comment is way off topic.

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  95. Judith (8,466 comments) says:

    @ Kea (8,770) Says:
    November 6th, 2013 at 5:32 pm

    As I have told you before – I totally agree with you regarding people that make false accusations of rape. They do an injustice to real victims because, as is demonstrated by this conversation, it makes it even harder for them.

    But Kea, rape does occur and it occurs frequently and violently in our society. If we allow this sort of behaviour to be accepted, what happens when the age drops a couple of years, and its an 11 year old, then a 10 year old – and so on.

    Just because there are some very stupid people who make false claims, does not mean rape never occurs.

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  96. Judith (8,466 comments) says:

    Pete George & Ryan Sproull, Most of us consider it a terrible crime and assume others feel the same. We feel no need to stand on a soap box and repeatedly shout our opposition to rape, like some kind of mantra.

    …and yet it is acceptable to you to allow males to stand on their soap boxes and promote acts of rape and sexual degradation?

    Men standing up and condemning this behaviour will do more towards stopping it, than anything the media or women in society can do. It is the positive male roll models saying ‘no’ to this sort of behaviour that will see it ceased, or at least modified.

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  97. Ryan Sproull (7,075 comments) says:

    Moral blame is what you accrue when you do something morally wrong, such as stealing a car or committing a rape. Prudential blame is what you accrue when you do something stupid that puts you at risk, such as leaving your keys in your car.

    Tom, you assert that people are confusing moral blame with prudential blame, and are therefore precluding themselves from being able to admit the existence of prudential blame. Fair enough.

    Do you not see people confusing moral blame with prudential blame in a different way – placing a moral weight on actions that you may characterise as meriting prudential blame?

    For example, Willie and JT asked the woman how old she was when she lost her virginity. Was this to establish some degree of prudential blame? Was there an answer to that question that would establish how unthinkingly silly she had been, analogous to leaving her keys in her car?

    I hear people talking about the way someone dresses as a factor in what you might characterise as meriting prudential blame, but they don’t talk about it like leaving keys in a car – they say thing like, “She was dressed like a slut.” That sounds to me like a moral judgement, rather than an observation of imprudence like, “She left her keys in her car.”

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  98. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Judith, of course rape exists and I have made my views clear on what I think of all this.

    As for “informed” decisions, do you think the young men are making informed decisions ? You are buying into the bullshit that women are hapless victims carried along by circumstance and totally powerless, while men are cold calculating predators. I previously shared a story about an attractive young woman who told me what her, and her friends, would regularly do during weekend piss ups, with no regret at all. She saw it as fun ! She is recently married to nice young chap.

    Instead of imagining the daughter senario, try imagining having a son in this profoundly anti male society. I recall a woman (herself a victim of sexual abuse) expressing deep concern about her sons growing up in such an anti male country.

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  99. RRM (9,670 comments) says:

    It’s amazing how socialist our conservative friends get when anything to do with sex comes up.
    :arrow: Rape is the result of how the victims dress.
    :arrow: Rape is the result of how the victims drink.
    :arrow: Rape is the result of generalised attitudes of “society” at large.

    Basically, rape is the result of anything else but the flawed choices made by the rapists. :neutral:

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  100. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    RRM, no one has been found guilty of rape. Are you sure you are on the right thread ?

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  101. Dean Papa (782 comments) says:

    Don’t doubt it Ryan Sproull. Precious toss-pot Russell Brown banned me from his pathetic little website. He even had the gall to call me self-obsessed. Ironic, given the revelling in victimhood that goes on over there. And these professional victims are pretty darn quick to use their victimhood as a weapon if you so much as dare suggest their worldview might be just a little bit distorted. They make you out to be an apologist for rape, and generally assassinate your character. That is their tried and proven tactic. Then they pompously ban you because you are making sense. They fear logical argument.

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  102. Ryan Sproull (7,075 comments) says:

    It’s amazing how socialist our conservative friends get when anything to do with sex comes up. :arrow: Rape is the result of how the victims dress. :arrow: Rape is the result of how the victims drink. :arrow: Rape is the result of generalised attitudes of “society” at large.

    Basically, rape is the result of anything else but the flawed choices made by the rapists.

    Conversely, a number of our collectivist friends get very “individual responsibility and brutal punishments” on this topic. It is understandably very emotive.

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  103. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    What motivated Graham Capill to relentlessly pontificate on and on about family values?

    Dean Papa, probably the same thing that motivates Pete Georges ongoing rants about “rape culture” ?

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  104. Dean Papa (782 comments) says:

    RRM, I see you are using that tired old tactic of putting words in other people’s mouths. Feel free to quote where anyone has suggested anything of the sort. Go on, see if you can do it!

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  105. RRM (9,670 comments) says:

    such an anti male country

    I like you Kea but you do talk some utter, utter rubbish sometimes.

    Yes there is enough PC bullshit about women this, women that, spoken among government, news media and academia to sink a ship… but in the real world we are FAR from being an anti male country.

    My wife worked as an industrial electrician for 5 years.

    Even before she finished her apprenticeship she was so much better than many of the male “lifers” in the company at tracing faults in new installs, that she had become someone who would get called in from other jobs to fix problems that had people stumped.

    Despite all that, the BS she had to overcome to make her way in a male industry defies belief…

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  106. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    PG, no obsession. I am merely responding to people who mindlessly parrot extreme feminist nonsense and accuse those men who question it of being soft on rape and misogynists.

    Women are not helpless victims and you are not their knight in shining armour. You seem unable to treat women as people and regard them as revered objects. Women never really relax around guys like you, which is why you do not understand them as well as you think. You also do not seem to understand men very well if you think loving fathers, brothers, husbands, sons, nephews etc are all part of some rape culture. Idiot.

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  107. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    RRM, I do not doubt the story of your wife’s experiences. I live in the same world as you. But much of what we accept as normal is really extreme feminist doctrine that has been normalised. That is not to say that there are not genuine issues with the way women are treated in some situations.

    The feminist movement want men found guilty of rape by accusation, with normal legal process bypassed. They claim women never lie about rape ! This is bullshit of course, but if you say so then you are made out to be a rapist and shamed into silence.

    The same thing is happening on this very thread. Guilty by accusation.

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  108. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    RRM, BTW… how do you think a male Midwife might be treated by his colleagues ?

    That is normal gender bias. What you see me going on about is institutionalised misandry that runs through our legal system and to state funded hate groups.

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  109. Andronicus (219 comments) says:

    I have no wish to listen to the interview, I know what Jackson and Tamihere are like.

    PG, that is a great letter, congratulations.

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  110. Pete George (23,354 comments) says:

    A complainant (from two years ago!) has come forward.

    Ever since 3 News broke the story of the west Auckland Roast Busters, police have maintained they couldn’t prosecute the underage sex gang until they received a complaint from a victim.

    Tonight it can be revealed the police did receive a complaint from one girl; two years ago.

    The girl, now 15, says she felt it was her word against the Roast Busters and no charges were laid.

    “This is my chance to say something. I couldn’t do anything two years ago. I want to do something now,” she told 3 News, in the presence of her mother and sister.

    She wanted to be identified, but for legal reasons she is unable to be shown or named. She says she was sexually assaulted by the Roast Busters when she was 13.

    “If it was me, it could be any of my friends. I knew it would carry on ,” she says.

    “I can’t believe nothing was done then. From then I have had my friends sexually abused by them. How many girls have been raped? I have seen posts done by girls saying Roast Busters ruined their lives […] They’ve gotten away with so much.”

    She has received an apology on Facebook from Joseph Parker, but he asked her not to complain to Police and “make it worse”.

    Police have confirmed to 3 News a complaint involving the Roast Busters was received in December 2011:
    “An investigation was launched and the complaint was thoroughly investigated.

    Whilst this was a distressing situation for the girl and her family, Police determined that there was not sufficient evidence to bring a prosecution.

    The girl plans to lay another complaint with police tomorrow.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Roast-Busters-victim-asked-to-re-enact-alleged-rape/tabid/423/articleID/320311/Default.aspx

    That’s awkward for the police, although more is known to corroborate the claims now.

    The girl also said the interviewing officer told her that her dress on the night would make it hard to prove a case.

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  111. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    Does anyone know what sentence the 36 year old cow got who plied an 11 year old boy with alcohol and seduced him and got pregnant as a result? She went to court this June. I wonder what sentence she got if any? She should have got a first strike.

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  112. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    Do you not see people confusing moral blame with prudential blame in a different way – placing a moral weight on actions that you may characterise as meriting prudential blame?

    All the time.

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  113. Northland Wahine (659 comments) says:

    Willie and John are seasoned interviewers and I find it hard to believe that didn’t know how it would be taken. Personally, I can take or leave their brand of “entertainment” (usually leave) because that’s all it is. It isn’t journalism, it isn’t interviewing, it isn’t reporting. I’d be interested to see if their ratings increased.

    As for the young teen girls, I do feel for them. And for goodness sake, lets hope other young teen girls learn from this. Keep yourself safe. Don’t put yourself into situations where you’re alone with people you hardly know, whether or not, they are offering alcohol. Parents, educate our daughters to keep themselves safe, because you’ll be picking up the pieces when things go wrong.

    And no, I’m not condoning these male snots actions nor am I about to pass moral judgement on their sexual exploits. They too will need to accept responsibility for their actions. What did they think was going to happen when this shit got out? The public would embrace them with open arms? yeah…right. Just as these girls add some really bad decisions, these young male creeps opted to post this shit online for all too see. So, just as they wanted to show these young girls were “slags” (their words, not mine) and this was to embarrass and shame, them, these creeps need to live with the consequences of their actions…someone will recognise them, and someone will smash them over, and most will have very little sympathy.

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  114. Pete George (23,354 comments) says:

    This may be completely coincidental… http://www.safe-nz.org.nz/sxdb/haleswarren.htm

    …but some very serious questions need to be answered by the police.

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  115. Ryan Sproull (7,075 comments) says:

    All the time.

    Where on that spectrum would you place JT and Willie’s question about how old the woman was when she lost her virginity?

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  116. RightNow (6,844 comments) says:

    Dammit, I’m discovering an iota of respect for Dean Papa.

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  117. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    PG, I had sex with a girl after drinking and the next day thought she was not so attractive after all. I regretted it and would not have done it if I were sober. I felt dirty.

    What victim group can I call and is there a special Police number I can call so she can be locked up and have her life destroyed ?

    I have been RAPED.

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  118. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I have no wish to listen to the interview, I know what Jackson and Tamihere are like.

    Andronicus has no idea what was actually said, but thinks the young men should have their lives destroyed anyway !

    There you have if folks, from the country that bought us the man-ban…

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  119. Tauhei Notts (1,652 comments) says:

    I think it was Ogden Nash who said, many years ago. that;
    “Candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker.”
    I imagine that he would be classified as a misogynist nowadays.

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  120. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    Rape is the result of generalised attitudes of “society” at large.

    That’s the feminist theory of rape culture, when they aren’t contradicting themselves and blaming rapists only.

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  121. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    Where on that spectrum would you place JT and Willie’s question about how old the woman was when she lost her virginity?

    Pretty inappropriate if that’s what they said. They should have asked about generalities regarding her peer group if they wanted to make a point about risky behaviours. Loading it on her seems quite bad to me.

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  122. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    they say thing like, “She was dressed like a slut.” That sounds to me like a moral judgement, rather than an observation of imprudence like, “She left her keys in her car.”

    That’s definitely out. Dress has been proven to have no effect on likelihood of rape, has it not?

    Things like not drinking from unattended drinks are just good advice. I still don’t do that per my mum’s warnings, and I’m a dude.

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  123. Sofia (831 comments) says:

    Kea – 0800 555 111 if you are serious

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  124. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Sofia, thank for caring. But I think I will join the millions of male “victims” of drunken sex that never come forward :)

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  125. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    Sofia, thank for caring. But I think I will join the millions of male “victims” of drunken sex that never come forward

    Might be her number…. ;)

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  126. Judith (8,466 comments) says:

    @ Tom Jackson (1,736) Says:
    November 6th, 2013 at 6:55 pm

    The problem with advice about what to drink etc, is not likely to be given to a 13 year old, nor is advice on what to do when confronted with a situation such as that girl found herself in.

    We give young girls advice about not walking about in the dark alone, and not talking to strangers, but generally we don’t give them advice on how to reject sexual advances and how to pick dangerous situations like this until they are a bit older.

    And as far as dress is concerned, even the warehouse markets clothes from the size of 8 that could be considered suggestive. Little girls are regarded as ‘cute’ in grown up clothing – the transgression from an innocent 11 year old to a curious 13 year old is pretty quick and many parents might not pick up the signs.

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  127. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    LOL :)

    You are going to get hung for that one buddy.

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  128. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    No it is not. A group of young women who know the boys well stated very clearly that they do ‘do that stuff’,

    Isn’t that the definition of hearsay? What’s needed is an actual witness to the criminal acts.

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  129. adze (2,005 comments) says:

    I have no time at all for WJ and JT, they are both boorish oafs. However, I would echo Tom Jackson’s and Ryan Sproull’s comments here, that victim blaming becomes a problem when lack of due care on the part of the victim is emphasised over the criminal act. When someone says “well that’s his/her problem for doing X” as though the criminal is a force of nature, and not someone who themselves make choices.

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  130. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    The problem with advice about what to drink etc, is not likely to be given to a 13 year old, nor is advice on what to do when confronted with a situation such as that girl found herself in.

    My parents gave me the safe talk at a very young age. They knew I was a reasonably responsible kid, but that it was likely that I might get into some odd situations, as all of us do. For girls it is more pressing, since no older girls I knew wanted to invite younger guys to their stuff, but there were always a bunch of older dudes who would happily pick up high school girls.

    We give young girls advice about not walking about in the dark alone, and not talking to strangers, but generally we don’t give them advice on how to reject sexual advances and how to pick dangerous situations like this until they are a bit older.

    Why not slowly transition from warnings about child molesters to warnings about peers as people get older?

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  131. jackinabox (781 comments) says:

    “She has received an apology on Facebook from Joseph Parker, but he asked her not to complain to Police and “make it worse”.”

    Is that deserving of a charge of attempting to pervert/obstruct the course of justice?

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  132. Judith (8,466 comments) says:

    @ Tom Jackson (1,738) Says:
    November 6th, 2013 at 7:03 pm

    A complaint was made in 2011 of rape by one of the victims. The police did nothing. She was only 13 years of age.

    One of the ‘busters’ apologised to her on his facebook page and told her not to go to the police – the page has been taken down but the post of course can be retrieved.

    There was another girl interviewed by TV 3 the other night as well – plus the friends who admitted they had witnessed acts, but they believed the girls had consented because they ‘turned up’ and met the boys (it doesn’t matter if they consented – if they are under 16 it is rape). They excused it by saying that is was just what teenagers do, (therefore accepting that it had happened).

    It appears to me there are a heap of witnesses out there – and enough statements by the idiots themselves to suggest that something is wrong – I am under no illusions that some of what the boys said they did was exaggerated – but it certainly doesn’t sound like all of it was.

    The police need to deal with this, and now. And the parents of those boys need to start acting like parents and ensure there is some sort of apology, before some stupid idiot vigilante gets out of hand.

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  133. jackinabox (781 comments) says:

    I heard Louise Nicholas defending the cops lack of action on this matter, she parroted that the police have to have a complainant before they can lay charges. I wonder what she would say now? I bet she’s feeling a right Charlie taking the cops at their word. It would appear that she has forgotten that cops are and always will be stupid liars.

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  134. Judith (8,466 comments) says:

    Tom Jackson (1,739) Says:
    November 6th, 2013 at 7:07 pm

    Yes, most parents do slowly make the warnings more appropriate to age, however, no parent wants to give that sort of advice before the child is ready for it. It is a delicate act getting it right. The last thing you want to do is make the child curious.

    Daughters are a lot harder than boys. I have two. One I needed to give some firm advice at 12, the other wasn’t ready for it until she was 14. Some parents are convinced their daughters never need to know how to handle sexual situations and insist on telling them to ‘save themselves for someone special’ and never explain the difference between sex/passion and love. Hence they are totally unprepared for situations like these.

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  135. Reid (16,111 comments) says:

    I thought I’d summarise for those joining:

    And while their daughters dress like sluts around horny teenage boys who live in our sex soaked society.

    Someone who understands.

    I think you mean “The boys have openly admitted getting girls drunk with the purpose of having group sex with them”

    What about “sex soaked society” don’t you understand?

    we are losing a lot of our young people to an alien culture from South LA ,ably assisted by our media ,who while on the one hand are all faux outrage on this (TV3) are more than happy to blast rap out constantly.

    Yes that’s true and isn’t all this fweedom wonderfool?

    I am not soft on rape and I in no way approve of this sort of carry-on. But pillorising men and lynch mobs are not the way to deal with it. To my mind this whole thing indicates a serious culture problem, regardless of any criminal offence.

    Another who understands.

    This has definitely got a lynch mob feel to it.

    And yet another.

    Seriously folks, what don’t you get about: these people were acting out what they have been “told” by the media and propaganda aka online porn, is simply A-OK. There is nothing here to indicate that these people were like the Mongrel Mob putting a woman or girl on the block which they do all the time and where’s the outrage there? No.

    This is about what YOU (and I) have allowed society to become and promulgate to our young. The difference is, some of us know it and speak out against the REAL evil which newsflash, isn’t these teens, it’s US. Some of us apparently really seriously don’t get this and are therefore drop dead fool idiot mental der duh and d’oh morons who prefer not to strike the root but rather look at the outcomes and condemn in quelle horreur the perfectly predictable which will continue apace and become worse and worse until WE stop this.

    And the answer is?

    Love.

    Love conquers all.

    But it’s love of people and who and what they represent. Not love of money, not love of status, not love of anything this world consists of or offers.

    That’s where we have lost our way, as parents, as children, as citizens. That’s what’s caused this. Those boys are a symptom, not a cause, and the media and most people miss their target treating them as perps, because the persons responsible are us, who allowed them to grow up in this utter depravity which we call society, and it is OUR fault, not theirs.

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  136. TheContrarian (1,082 comments) says:

    Kea, so concerned about these boys and others like them at the hands of the feminists.

    Forgetting that:

    *Sex with a 13 yr old is illegal regardless of consent
    *multiple accusations, though no formal complaints against these boys
    *getting people drunk for the purposes of gang-banging
    *Them admitting all of the above.

    Stop being a shit bag. If you wanna complain about feminism and false accusations then you are on the wrong thread.

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  137. Lance (2,570 comments) says:

    @Kea
    There is a difference between drunken rape and mental masterbation

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  138. nasska (10,917 comments) says:

    Anyone who has brought up teenage girls would have a certain amount of sympathy for other parents trying to get safety messages across. A thirteen YO girl will be a princess one minute yet get them with a group of their peers & they’ll try to conform with the current “group think”.

    You can’t “ground” them forever, their mothers are not allowed to give them a good belt & if they are determined to lie to get their own way effectively they’ll do what they want to as soon as they’re out of eyesight.

    Thankfully ours turned out all right but it’s not hard to see how the subject of this thread can occur to kids, even those with the the best intentioned parents.

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  139. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    A complaint was made in 2011 of rape by one of the victims. The police did nothing investigated and found nothing that would support a rape charge.

    There you go Judith, I wrote the same thing but took the lies out for you.

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  140. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    My thirteen year old got picked out the gutter pissed once by the Ambulance and the Police brought her home on another occasion.

    She was so drunk I bedded her down on the floor by our bed so we could hear if she started to choke on vomit.
    Fortunately she was never raped, and learned from her mistakes. She is 36 now and has a sixteen year old daughter.

    I’m certain she would be utterly appalled if her daughter did the same as she once did! :)

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  141. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    That’s where we have lost our way, as parents, as children, as citizens. That’s what’s caused this. Those boys are a symptom, not a cause, and the media and most people miss their target treating them as perps, because the persons responsible are us, who allowed them to grow up in this utter depravity which we call society, and it is OUR fault, not theirs.

    Reid I tend to agree that this is a symptom of our society, but I do not think society is as depraved as you do. This is not healthy behaviour regardless. The fact it is drug [alcohol] fueled troubles me the most. Booze is at the root of so much violence, be it sexual or a brawl.

    Take the drugs out of the picture and would this nonsense have happened ? I very much doubt it.

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  142. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    I get pissed every night Kea and I’ve never beaten/raped anyone. Produce real evidence for your particular distaste of folks hobbies! :)

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  143. nasska (10,917 comments) says:

    Most people can drink until they pass out & never harm anyone JB. The ones that cause the problems either lose all social inhibitions or the ability to keep their natural instincts in check.

    They are predators.

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  144. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    If these girls were so out of it, then how can they recall what happened ?

    How could they possibly be considered reliable witnesses in a police attempt to destroy a young male kids life ?

    You can not be both lucid enough to remember and so comatose that you could not consent. The girls drank themselves into oblivion and retrospectively withdrawing consent and regretting their actions does not make them a “victim” of anything, let alone rape.

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  145. TheContrarian (1,082 comments) says:

    “a police attempt to destroy a young male kids life ?”

    Having sex with a thirteen year old is a criminal offense Kea.

    Thee boys did it to themselves. Stop being a bellend

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  146. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    The trouble with being a real alcoholic nasska is that you can’t drink enough to pass out. :)

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  147. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Johnboy, I am not against booze, I am against the behaviour of some people. As nasska has noted, many of us can get a skinful and not rape or beat on anybody.

    Personally I now have a policy of no sex after drinking. I might get the ladies number and if we still reckon it is a good idea, then catch up for lunch when we are sober. This does not always go down well with the modern “lady” who will very often takes offence. I usually deal with this by suggesting drunken sex is not that great, so lets have a good time and do each other like porn stars when we are sober.

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  148. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    TheContrarian, I had sex at 13. Was she a rapist ?

    Hint: NO

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  149. TheContrarian (1,082 comments) says:

    No she wasn’t rapist, you knob.

    What’s with your apologetics? Having sex with a 13 year old when you are 17 is illegal. You can argue all you want about the semantics and situation but it is illegal.

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  150. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Having sex with a thirteen year old is a criminal offense Kea.

    So is jaywalking.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10692628

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  151. nasska (10,917 comments) says:

    I gave up the grog thirteen years ago JB….I was developing a few gaps in my life & it was starting to get me hooked.

    Ended up the best thing I ever did. Thirty five years is a pretty good session. :)

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  152. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    “Personally I now have a policy of no sex after drinking.”

    At almost sixty four I have the same policy Kea.

    In fact I have the same policy after eating, farting, waking, or saying..”My your a pretty little thing darling” ! :)

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  153. Yvette (2,745 comments) says:

    Reid – some of us know it and speak out against the REAL evil which newsflash, isn’t these teens, it’s US …
    the persons responsible are us, who allowed them to grow up in this utter depravity which we call society, and it is OUR fault, not theirs.

    OK, Reid. But at what point do you start correcting this “utter depravity which we call society”.
    A prominent community leader admits to living an absolute lie for two years, but asks Auckland “to stand by him” and I guess that the Auckland Roman Catholic Church excuse his adultery.
    The Prime Minister refuses to read a Police report because then he will officially know what the rest of us know of the reservations expressed about one of the politicians who was a one of his Ministers. Meanwhile the entire country knows this is a well-motivated technical version of the truth, and still a fucking lie.
    And surely truth is one of the simpler corrections you want communities to have, along with just a little more respect.
    So where does anyone start?

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  154. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    TheContrarian, in some countries it is illegal, but those laws ignore the reality of normal human behaviour and need to change. In many civilised countries the laws are different to ours. It is arbitrary. It is well accepted the girls mature sooner.

    I will say it again, I do not “approve” of this and the guys have no form. They need to stop. Hopefully they will grow up soon.

    I do not think they should be criminally prosecuted based on the facts so far.

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  155. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    A complaint was made in 2011 of rape by one of the victims. The police did nothing. She was only 13 years of age.

    Actually, the police investigated. The fact that no charges were laid might mean that the police didn’t think she was reliable, or was not telling the truth. Or that a conviction was unlikely.

    Teens can sometimes gild the lily where alleged sexual offending is concerned. In fact, they can sometimes lie about being raped.
    Does it concern you that some girls and women can and do lie about being raped?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3655853/Christchurch-teen-admits-false-rape-complaint
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/6608142/Hamilton-girl-made-false-rape-complaint-police

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  156. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “No she wasn’t rapist, you knob.”

    Oh and why not ?

    I was too young to give consent. Please explain ????????

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  157. TheContrarian (1,082 comments) says:

    “I do not think they should be criminally prosecuted based on the facts so far.”

    Which is why they haven’t you fucking numbnuts.

    But if people come forward and testify I have no fucking doubt you’ll decry the testimony and come up with some other argument why these guys are actually victims.

    Because you’re a fuck-knuckle.

    “Oh and why not ?

    I was too young to give consent. Please explain ????????”

    Oh so your stupid too. Didn’t you see earlier where I said “Having sex with a 13 year old is illegal regardless of consent”?

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  158. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    A complaint was made in 2011 of rape by one of the victims. The police did nothing. She was only 13 years of age…

    …It appears to me there are a heap of witnesses out there – and enough statements by the idiots themselves to suggest that something is wrong – I am under no illusions that some of what the boys said they did was exaggerated – but it certainly doesn’t sound like all of it was.

    Well, either the police are corrupt, which is a pretty radical accusation, or the evidence wasn’t sufficient to prosecute. In all probability, it’s probably the latter, because that happens all the time.

    I accept that it is a fact that many rapes occur and are never prosecuted for lack of evidence. But the problem doesn’t seem to me to be the law, or the police, but that rape is an inherently difficult crime to prosecute. Because human beings almost always seclude themselves to have sex, it means that in a great many cases of rape it will be one person’s word against another, and that’s not enough to convict.

    Because women are often the victims of a crime that is inherently difficult to prosecute, it looks like our society is unfair. But in fact it is nature that is unfair. Short of lowering the burden of proof in rape cases, which would mean abandoning the central principle of the justice system, there’s not much that can be done about the central, natural injustice that makes women perpetual victims.

    Some feminist writers do advocate lowering the burden of proof, because they see having a surfeit of innocent men being locked up as compensating for the fact that many women are raped and the rapist is never brought to justice. The problem with that is that the justice system would then be punishing people not as individual persons, which is a fundamentally odious thing to do.

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  159. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    Personally I now have a policy of no sex after drinking. I might get the ladies number and if we still reckon it is a good idea, then catch up for lunch when we are sober.

    The right to engage in crappy, clumsy, drunken rooting is a fundamental right in a democratic society. Don’t deny yourself this rewarding and character building experience!

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  160. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    I’d have given you a hundred up thumbs for that 8:50 if I could Tom!

    Most sensible comment I’ve read in years! :)

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  161. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    “I do not think they should be criminally prosecuted based on the facts so far.”

    Which is why they haven’t you fucking numbnuts.

    The Contrarian, thanks for confirming your view is not based on facts. I sort of figured that one out myself.

    Because you’re a fuck-knuckle.

    First we have a decision reached without facts, followed by crystal ball gazing and mind reading. You are a true warrior of the feminist cause.

    I was too young to give consent. Please explain ????????”

    Oh so your stupid too. Didn’t you see earlier where I said “Having sex with a 13 year old is illegal regardless of consent”?

    I sure did see it. That is why I asked if she was guilty of rape as I was only 13 ? But you missed that as you are trained to only see women as victims and men as the offenders.

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  162. Chuck Bird (4,773 comments) says:

    ” A complaint was made in 2011 of rape by one of the victims. The police did nothing. She was only 13 years of age…

    …It appears to me there are a heap of witnesses out there – and enough statements by the idiots themselves to suggest that something is wrong – I am under no illusions that some of what the boys said they did was exaggerated – but it certainly
    doesn’t sound like all of it was. ”

    In June this year a 36 year old cow got pregnant from seducing an 11 year old boy. Why has the media not reported what happened when she was sentenced?

    I gather from a previous thumbs down that all you who are calling for blood condone young adolescent boys being abused by homosexuasl or sex old cows.

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  163. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Having sex with a 13 year old is illegal regardless of consent”?

    But if the girls gave consent, they should be prosecuted because they were under age? That seems to be what you’re saying.

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  164. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Tom Jacksob, don’t worry I have lived a bit ;)

    Each to his own I say, as long as every one goes home happy.

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  165. TheContrarian (1,082 comments) says:

    “The Contrarian, thanks for confirming your view is not based on facts. I sort of figured that one out myself.”

    Sorry what?
    I summed it up thusly:

    *Sex with a 13 yr old is illegal regardless of consent
    *multiple accusations, though no formal complaints against these boys
    *getting people drunk for the purposes of gang-banging
    *Them admitting all of the above.

    Those are facts. Which part of my ‘view’ isn’t based on facts?

    “That is why I asked if she was guilty of rape as I was only 13″

    No, not guilty of rape. Guilty of sex with a minor.

    “But if the girls gave consent, they should be prosecuted because they were under age? That seems to be what you’re saying.”

    That’s not what I’m saying – that’s what the law says regardless of whether you or me think it is right or not

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  166. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    I got my first screw when I was fifteen with a girl who was the same age. I really had a secret desire to be raped by the sloe-eyed wife of my history teacher who ran the school tuckshop, she was an old woman of at least thirty odd something! :)

    She had cleavage to lose yourself in. We always asked for the lollies in the bottom of the glass fronted counter! :)

    I’m certain she moved the hard to sell stuff down there! :)

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  167. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    I always feel sorry for the hot teachers who get jailed for diddling their high school male students.

    Given how horny I typically felt at this age, I have nothing but compassion for these martyred angels of sexual mercy.

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  168. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    I remember how horny I was at that age, but with no social skills to back it up. Those hot teachers, mums, friends sister, sisters friends, fellow students, girl at the shop and anything female… did not help… well some did :)

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  169. Tom Jackson (2,532 comments) says:

    Reminded me of this classic

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  170. Johnboy (15,602 comments) says:

    I shall die happy considering all the stale lollies I helped consume in those pre-diabetic days, even though the sexy femme fatale vendor will now be 80 odd if she’s a day! :)

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  171. Left Right and Centre (2,887 comments) says:

    JB: I find it exceedingly hard to believe that you get dark-toasted on all the days ending with ‘day’ :) :)

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  172. ChardonnayGuy (1,190 comments) says:

    I shall be grateful when the two tossers in question get kicked off Radio Brain Dead. It’s rapidly turning into the same Augean stables that Radio Pathetic was at its worst.

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