General Debate 8 April 2014

April 8th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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210 Responses to “General Debate 8 April 2014”

  1. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    An email received that may be of interest to some of you who cannot make it there, but would like their loved ones remembered in some way:

    NZ Division 1914-1918

    Hello everyone,

    I wanted to let you know that we’ll be visiting Ieper and the Somme during the week of Anzac Day 2014. If you would like us to do something specific for you, for example take a photo of an ancestor’s grave, get in contact. This is a list of what we’ll be visiting:

    TYNE COT CEMETERY
    POLDERHOEK CHATEAU
    NEW ZEALAND MEMORIAL GRAVENSTAFEL
    BELLEVUE SPUR
    MESSINES RIDGE (N.Z.) MEMORIAL
    COMINES/WARNETON – Battle of Basseville and memorial plaque to Mr Leslie Andrew VC.
    PLOEGSTEERT WOOD – Catacombs, Hill 63, Red Lodge, Hyde Park Corner.
    CITE BONJEAN MILITARY CEMETERY, ARMENTIERES
    NINE ELEMS BRITISH CEMETERY – Dave Gallaher (All Black Rugby Captain).

    Somme in 1916 Mametz, Montuaban, Longueval Memorial and Le Sars.
    Somme in 1918 Euston Road Cemetery Colincamps, Rossignol Wood, Grevillers (New Zealand) Memorial.

    Yours sincerely,
    Jeremy Mears

    Visit New Zealand Division 1914-1918 at: http://newzealanddivision.org/?xg_source=msg_mes_network

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  2. Keeping Stock (10,337 comments) says:

    Remember “Hey Clint”? Matt McCarten has succeeded where David Cunliffe failed last year, and lured Clint away from the Greens to Labour. Who is going to babysit Garth Hughes when he can’t answer questions now?

    And that is now THREE current or former Standard bloggers either working in Cunliffe’s office (or the War Room), or providing him with legal advice. That’ll make it hard for the World’s Greatest Sys-op to deny that The Standard is simply a mouthpiece for the Labour Party.

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/04/hey-clint-defects.html

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  3. Colville (2,268 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/9914226/Wellington-crowd-funding-sought-for-public-cars

    60 people per “shared” car? What a crock of gweenie shit!

    and matched dollar for dollar by the caring Welling City Council!

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  4. Colville (2,268 comments) says:

    Keepingstock.
    3 Stranded bloggers to spread the good news that is Cun*life.
    The Stranded still thinks Key is Labours ONLY problem.
    It just gets better and better for National.

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  5. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    http://www.zipcar.com/

    what’s zipcar?
    Glad you asked. It’s a smarter way to get around the city.

    Drive cars by the hour or day. Gas & insurance included.
    In neighborhoods, cities and airports across the globe.
    Save hundreds over car ownership.
    Choose from sedans, hybrids, vans and more.
    Membership starts as low as $6/month.

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  6. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    The people giving advice to Lydia Ko, have a lot to answer for…..

    When she turned pro at the age of 16, she was the rising star who played the game without fear – and the results came. But there were concerns that Ko would be forced (by her new ‘management team’ IMG) to make several changes. So what happened?

    First there was the totally daft decision last December to dump her long time coach / mentor / caddie Guy Wilson – to be replaced by two coaches (David Leadbetter, along with Sean Hogan) in Florida. Reports of them ‘changing things’ in her swing, leads to the obvious question: Why?

    Then for ‘commercial reasons’ she suddenly switched from her trusted Srixon / Titleist combination that had seen her win numerous titles (including two as an amateur on the LPGA Tour), to Callaway.

    News today is that, after a disappointing result at the Kraft Nabisco, Ko has dumped her second caddie of 2014 – so she is looking for her third…. in 3 months. Not good.

    When a player the calibre of Rory McIlroy takes months to get used to a change in equipment / when a player such as Adam Scott takes months to get used to a new caddie in the form of Steve Williams and when a player with the experience of Tiger Woods takes several months to get used to a new coach, isn’t it a bit much to ask a 16 year old to handle everything at once – and in the space of three months?

    If I was IMG, I’d be on the phone to Guy Wilson right now and trying to get the two of them back together. IMO, Lydia Ko needs some familiar faces around her – in order to return her to her previous (successful) routines. And to get her back enjoying herself on the course.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/golf/9913805/Ko-splits-with-caddy-after-major-disappointment

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  7. big bruv (13,886 comments) says:

    Elaycee

    It’s chick sport, nobody cares.

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  8. Paulus (2,626 comments) says:

    Thanks TVNZ for showing the arrival of Princess Diana five times during the news last night.
    Who were the other people who got off the airplane in Wellington ?
    Oh sorry, I forgot it was actually your son, his lovely wife and your grandson.
    Who would have thought.
    I believe that Diana would have been the mother in law from hell – no way would she have allowed Katherine to be herself.
    Both beautiful women, but ouch, as if anybody could come near to Diana.
    Thanks for reminding me of Diana.

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  9. EAD (1,072 comments) says:

    Whilst being a Monarchist myself (in so far as I’d much rather a distant non-interfering head of state as opposed to the alternative) and only slightly interested in the Royal tour, it is interesting to observe the absolute apoplexy of Republicans in relation to the royal tour. Be it their complaints about the trivial costs, their attempts to change the conversation to other news, to criticise everything about the visit or even to leave the country for the duration of the tour, the republicans and flag changers are not enjoying the tour at all.

    I think the thing that they deep down hate is the joy that Kate, Wills and Baby George bring to the ordinary people (the so called silent majority) and that our political leaders and enlightened eggheads in ivory towers could never ever dream of such popularity that cuts across political lines.

    Best wishes to the Royals, I hope you enjoy your time in Godzone.

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  10. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “Reports of them ‘changing things’ in her swing, leads to the obvious question: Why?”

    That’s bizarre. And a good question.

    From bb: “It’s chick sport, nobody cares.”

    Ah big bruv, who likes to proclaim himself the voice of rational, enlightenment era values.

    *cough* :)

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  11. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Typical result when commercial interest rather than the love of the game take over the career of a rising star.

    Guy Wilson
    Would be in a position to refuse as it is obvious that his input had a great deal to do with guiding lydia to her present status,
    His guidance will be in demand with parents looking for the same career for their kids. New challenges await him. Why go back to a relationship that was so unhonorably defiled?

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  12. MT_Tinman (3,184 comments) says:

    I’m not that sure it’s actually a sport.

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  13. WineOh (630 comments) says:

    Cunliffe on Morning Report about the disaster relief in the Solomons… says “We should be doing more” and “We need to increase the funding for emergency support”.

    When pressed for specific details, what more should we be doing, how much should the funding be, how should it be allocated he immediately reverts to form – “I can’t comment on that until I see the reports, recommendations and the finances”.

    David, you are a plonker. Without specifics you look like an empty shell trying to make political headway out of a tragedy – but without answers you’re throwing mud into the wind. More than half of it ends up back in your face.

    Idiot.

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  14. Grendel (1,002 comments) says:

    Dime. This should interest you.
    http://m.ufc.co.nz/news/The-UFC-Comes-To-New-Zealand

    Looking forward to it. The 2 ufc events in oz I went to were awesome.

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  15. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    WineOh,

    This is why his poll ratings are around 8%. Joe average knows the second statement contradicts the first, that he’s just full of political hot air and little real substance.

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  16. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Wineoh: Cunliffe is a loser, recipient of a Slobcom monetary contribution, guaranteeing citizenship, so as not to face charges laid against him in the US. “Tojo” is desperate for traction, but outflanked by the hapless Jones, who, like all lefties, will do irreparable damage in order to gain support.
    This marriage between Hadfield and obese German slug will be a ripper when Slobcom can’t get his way and is extradited.
    What is happening to the Lecherous mayor of NZ’s leading city? Hope he is not going to meet the Royals . . . he is probably carrying some terrible STD!

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  17. Ross12 (1,425 comments) says:

    Just out of interest does anyone know how the election system works in India. I heard on radio this morning it goes over a couple of months. But 800 +mill voters –what a task !!

    http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/22443693/india-voters-kick-off-worlds-biggest-election/

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  18. nasska (11,480 comments) says:

    Attention all you pedlars of AGW crap….petrol consumption in NZ is actually decreasing.

    *4.2 billion barrels a year – fuel consumption peaked at in 2007.
    *3.6 billion barrels a year – expected total within next 10 years.

    Take your bicycles, hair shirts & mung beans & shove them up your arses. :)

    Ref: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11233957

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  19. mandk (993 comments) says:

    @ Griffith,

    If the public car scheme reduces the cost of motoring, surely the outcome will be increased car use and more greenhouse gas emissions?

    Are you comfortable with that outcome?

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  20. Reid (16,442 comments) says:

    The Gween taliban strikes again, proving once again their claims to be humanitarian and weally weally caring about people, are a toxic vat of evil lies.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2597907/Green-smear-campaign-against-professor-dared-disown-sexed-UN-climate-dossier.html

    And a comment on the useful idiots of this world – some of them. Too bad the bogus ‘war on tewwor’ doesn’t get the same treatment since it uses exactly the same tactics – alarmism, astute propaganda and a compliant media…

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/10746497/How-did-the-IPCCs-alarmism-take-everyone-in-for-so-long.html

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  21. nasska (11,480 comments) says:

    Wait until they add up the methane produced by the cow farts as the oxen pull the drays carrying your allocation of organic rice & vegetables from the communal farms to the cities mandk.

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  22. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    The rumours were right…

    Seven Hollywood studios have filed a copyright infringement lawsuit against Megaupload and its founder Kim Dotcom.

    Today major studios 20th Century Fox, Disney, Paramount, Universal, Columbia Pictures and Warner Bros filed claims in the Virginia federal court. The companies are seeking profits and maximum statutory damages.

    Time to stock up on the popcorn… :D

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11234233

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  23. EAD (1,072 comments) says:

    What the hell is going on with all these deaths of the global Banksters?

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-07/ceo-liechtenstein-bank-frick-murdered

    Yesterday it was the former CEO of ABN Amro now the CEO of a prominent Liechenstein bank was murdered today. Something big is happening here but I don’t know what.

    Are they all mysteriously dying because dead men don’t talk or Is it the start of a war against the money-changers as Lord Acton famously quoted “The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the people versus the banks”

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  24. Reid (16,442 comments) says:

    Wait until they add up the methane produced by the cow farts as the oxen pull the drays carrying your allocation of organic rice & vegetables from the communal farms to the cities mandk.

    That’s definitely coming nasska. They can’t wait to destroy the dairy industry with their galloping insanity.

    Something big is happening here but I don’t know what.

    Best pick I’ve read EAD is those people knew something about whatever rigging they’ve been doing – think LIBOR but much bigger – and they were going to talk.

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  25. EAD (1,072 comments) says:

    Reid – When you look at all of the frauds exposed over the last few years, whether that be Libor, oil and wheat futures, interest rate swaps, credit default swaps, collateralised debt obligations, all sorts of derivatives or as the author Michael Lewis (author of MoneyBall and the Big Short) just exposed – the High frequency trading scam as covered so brilliantly by Liam Halligan in the Spectator.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9175021/the-need-for-speed/

    No, I think it is the biggest fraud of the lot is nearing it’s unwinding stage – the generational manipulation of gold and silver prices as banks have attempted to keep the price suppressed of the only true money that can’t be conjured out of thin air – the alternative to their fractionally reserved paper money debt instruments.

    When even the Financial Times, so long antagonistic towards gold start publishing articles that one day the paper price manipulation of gold will end catastrophically, you know something BIG is on the horizon.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-25/ft-goes-there-demand-physical-gold-one-day-paper-price-manipulation-will-end-catastr

    It’s long been my belief that when Au unwinds… it’s going to be a crazy, crazy event. I’m not holding my breath that it will happen any time soon, but I know it will eventually happen, and it will have people slack-jawed and saying WTF, and it will be on the covers of every financial and news magazine for weeks.

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  26. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    WOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO UFC Auckland June 28!!!!!!

    The only downside will be all the feminist bitches and girly men all over the media talking about how its barbaric etc. in saying that, i look forward to the UFC Pres telling them all to go fuck themselves :)

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  27. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    What does settler indigeniety mask? Put
    simply, privilege.

    http://www.tasa.org.au/conferences/conferencepapers07/papers/29.pdf‎

    Cool Dude.

    There is little denying that Matthewman is an extremely wise man. He confronts peoples prejudices on a daily basis as a lecturer and helps many students see the world in a completely different way.

    http://makingitinakl.blogspot.co.nz/2012/12/the-brilliance-of-doubt-meet-steve.html

    Turning out journalists, public servants, The Standard.
    On the Public Purse.

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  28. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    So another Geldoff dies. The Herald doesnt mention how it happened.. but underneath there is a list of numbers to lifeline, suicide prevention etc..

    wonder how she died?

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  29. EAD (1,072 comments) says:

    Whoever junked my 9.35am post – please remember that junk

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  30. big bruv (13,886 comments) says:

    Last nights news broadcast of the Royals arrival in NZ on Labour Party TV made me cringe. Now, personally I could not care if they are here or not but when we ask them to get off a plane in the pissing rain and howling wind (is the weather any different in Wellington?) then subject them to a stone age foot stomping dance (again in the pissing rain) at government house made me ashamed to be a Kiwi.

    Must we inflict this ethnic crap on them every time they arrive in NZ?

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  31. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    If I ever manage to get back to work I’m going to miss Choice TV in the mornings. It’s surprisingly good.

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  32. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    Blinded by The White.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege
    helps to explain (what has been called) “a suicidal sel-loathing”.

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  33. MT_Tinman (3,184 comments) says:

    Big bruv, I can’t think of anyone better qualified to be forced to watch such tomfoolery.

    If great (great?) grandma Vicky had’ve done what she did everywhere else and simply walked all over the bloody natives in NZ instead of listening to their pleas for mercy and allowing a bloody treaty with some of the northern cannibals NZ would be a far better place and no one would be forced to watch such crap.

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  34. publicwatchdog (2,593 comments) says:

    Missed this Kiwibloggers?

    Dodgy John is going…. going….

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11234016

    Penny Bright

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

    (For a copy of Wylie J’s dismissal of the latest attempt by John Banks’ QC to get his electoral fraud case thrown out of Court).

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  35. stephieboy (3,030 comments) says:

    big bruv , the traditional Maori welcome will always be present irrespective of your whinging and whining. Time for you to move on and make a decision, once and for all, to sign up with Kyle Chapman and his RWR. ( if you have not done that already. )
    you too ,MT_Tinman

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  36. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    MT_Tinman,

    so you think that Maori should have been wiped out?

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  37. MT_Tinman (3,184 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, did Vicky wipe out the natives elsewhere in the British Empire?

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  38. doggone7 (801 comments) says:

    Must we inflict this ethnic crap on them every time they arrive in NZ?

    Yeah, our ethnic crap is better than their ethnic crap eh e hoa?

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  39. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    Then what exactly were you suggesting that would have meant not having to watch the haka?

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  40. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    MT
    How about the Tasmanian aborigines?

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  41. DJP6-25 (1,387 comments) says:

    EAD 8.35 am. You’re right.

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  42. Chuck Bird (4,880 comments) says:

    Will we ever learn?

    Convicted sex groomer overseeing girls’ sports

    By Sam Boyer
    Updated 9:49 AM Tuesday Apr 8, 2014

    Kevin McMillan was found guilty of sexually grooming a girl aged 12. He’s now refereeing girls’ football and softball games.

    A man convicted of sexually grooming a 12-year-old girl 18 months ago has been appointed to referee and supervise girls’ football and softball games.

    Kevin Dean McMillan was found guilty of grooming the 12-year-old in August 2012, when he was 19.

    He avoided prison because the sentencing judge worried he would be “regularly assaulted … in a variety of extremely unpleasant ways by other inmates”.

    In the past few weeks, McMillan has refereed girls as young as 14 and 15 in a tournament sanctioned by the Auckland Football Federation and overseen a softball tournament with 9 and 10-year-old girls through his employment with the Auckland Softball Association.

    Neither organisation saw McMillan as a risk to the children he officiated over, and both said he was under supervision.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11233989

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  43. MT_Tinman (3,184 comments) says:

    Shawn, that Vicky should have done as she did elsewhere – thrashed them to within an inch of their lives then ruled them.

    MM, How about them?

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  44. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Weren’t they exterminated under Queen Vic’s watch?
    Perhaps what you describe would have happened in NZ if the Maori resistance hadn’t been so determined.

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  45. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “thrashed them to within an inch of their lives then ruled them.”

    Ah, I see. So you are a racist dick then. Good to know.

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  46. srylands (410 comments) says:

    David Farrar – Busted

    http://thestandard.org.nz/david-farrar-busted/

    This was yesterday’s wind up toy. I don’t get it. There is no evidence that an MP leaked a letter, or that DPF relied on a leaked letter to do the original post on countdown. Would be interesting to get his take on it.

    They came at me like the zombies from the Walking Dead :-)

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  47. publicwatchdog (2,593 comments) says:

    There’s more Kiwibloggers!

    Missed this?

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/dotcom-offended-banks-asked-him-be-anonymous-wrote-cheques-team-banksie-sf-154412

    Penny Bright

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

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  48. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    :lol:

    MM

    Why don’t you examine how many tribes of maori were exterminated by other maori been 1815 and 1835.
    With that Maori genocidal orgy of slaughter before we imposed civilization on them as a base line the genocide of maori is maori culturally appropriate for us to pursue against them.
    Every time a maori does the haka the cultural correct responce is a 303 bullet up the arse. .

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  49. Manolo (13,754 comments) says:

    Sharpton, a black activist and a rat: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/investigation/al-sharpton-764312

    When friends and family members gathered recently at the White House for a private celebration of Michelle Obama’s 50th birthday, one of the invited partygoers was a former paid FBI Mafia informant.

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  50. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “before we imposed civilization”

    You mean like this?

    “The Trail of Tears is a name given to the ethnic cleansing and forced relocation of Native American nations from southeastern parts of the United States following the Indian Removal Act of 1830. The removal included many members of the Cherokee, Muscogee (Creek), Seminole, Chickasaw, and Choctaw nations, among others in the United States, from their homelands to Indian Territory in eastern sections of the present-day state of Oklahoma. The phrase originated from a description of the removal of the Choctaw Nation in 1831.[1]

    Many Native Americans suffered from exposure, disease and starvation on the route to their destinations. Many died, including 2,000-6,000 of 16,542 relocated Cherokee”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears

    Yes, very civilized behaviour.

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  51. WineOh (630 comments) says:

    @ igm- Your repeated references to Cunliffe as “Tojo” have me a bit confused. I assume you are referring to Hideki Tojo, Japanese General who ordered the attacks on China and Pearl Harbour. He seems completely different from David Cunliffe:
    1. Appeared to be completely steadfast in his convictions
    2. Was a decisive leader and a man of action
    3. When arrest was imminent he attempted the “honourable” thing by Japanese custom, which is suicide. Apparently his bullet missed his heart though and was bleeding profusely- apologised for taking so long to die.
    4. Once recovered from his injuries, was convicted of war crimes multiple war crimes & was hanged
    5. Was staunch in his defense and protection of the Emperor
    6. Took full responsibility for his actions, right up until his execution, asking for compassion towards Japanese civilians

    For a moment disregarding the fact that Tojo was responsible for millions of deaths, both military and civilian, he appears to be the polar opposite of the back-stabbing, chameleon, intellectual & political worm that Cunliffe is.

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  52. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    griffith
    What part of the term ‘musket wars’ might imply there was something that happened in NZ to prompt the widespread intertribal conflicts?

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  53. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “Why don’t you examine how many tribes of maori were exterminated by other maori been 1815 and 1835.”

    You mean after the “civilised” supplied them with muskets?

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  54. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    shawn I Know you are stupid
    The rest of the world was not the subject of my post
    Number killed in pre 1840 conflict maori on maori.
    20% plus of the population more than 25.000
    Number of smoked heads harvested from slaves and exported 1800- 1840 was 2000….. 1% of the population

    Number killed in the NZ wars asserting the queens sovereignty 1840 on 2100

    Maori exported as many smoked human heads than died in the land wars

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  55. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    So before nz existed someone should have patrolled the boarders and stopped maori from buying guns :lol:
    stupid stupid MM
    Anti Colonal bullshit mike england was not responsable for maori killing maori or maori buying guns on the open market

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  56. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “shawn I Know you are stupid”

    Please, that coming from an intellectually retarded and racist nutjob is a compliment.

    “I’m not religious, but I believe in Gaia”

    Engage your other braincell Griff. It’s there somewhere if you look hard enough.

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  57. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    WineOh: Cunliffe stated he would have preferred to sacrifice Allied lives instead of using the bombs, and also wants to apologise for the shooting of uprising Japanese prisoners of war in Wairarapa. He to me is worse than “Tojo”, but the handle befits a slimey slug such as he. Maybe I am wrong.

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  58. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    We’ve been through this before, igm, and you couldn’t substantiate these assertions.

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  59. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    The attitude of “imposing civilisation” is exactly what led to the Trail of Tears Griff. If you had a brain you would be able to make the obvious connection.

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  60. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    America Canada australia all deliberately tried to eliminate the inhabitants. Abos were not legally human untill the seventys
    In New Zealand we stepped in to stop the inhabitants killing each other. The maori had voting franchise before the common man in nz

    And you can not comprehend the difference .

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  61. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “In New Zealand we stepped in to stop the inhabitants killing each other.”

    Only after supplying them with the means to do so in the first place. That does not exactly make your side heroes. Moreover your version of civilisation led to WW1 and WW2, the most destructive wars in history. So how does that make your side more “civilised.”

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  62. WineOh (630 comments) says:

    igm: I didn’t know about those comments of Cunliffe regarding WWII, thanks for sharing.

    I think many Kiwis would actually approve of his stance against the use of The Bomb x2 on Japan, a move that was obviously designed to cause maximum civilian deaths rather than engaging military targets. Abuse and execution of Japanese prisoners of war is also a war-crime, regardless of atrocities on the other side.

    What irks me the most about Cunliffe is about the lack of personal convictions, or at least the willpower to stand behind them. His political views appear to be ones of convenience that will change with public opinion polls. His loyalty to his party leadership is only convenient while it improves his personal position, but is also the first to put the knife in the back when it suits him.

    I’m trying to think of another political opportunist in modern history that would befit Cunliffe, but struggling to come up with one. Help me out here??

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  63. big bruv (13,886 comments) says:

    stephieboy

    “big bruv , the traditional Maori welcome will always be present”

    It does not have to be that way. We could move out of the stone age and into something better reflecting todays society.

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  64. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “It does not have to be that way. We could move out of the stone age and into something better reflecting todays society.”

    Offer them P and crack cocaine instead?

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  65. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    Don’t get me wrong Griff, I’m rather fond of the West. Western civilisation has some distinct advantages, not the least of which is it’s Christian foundations. But it is still made up of fallible human beings, and defending the West should not mean being blind to it’s crimes and failures. Depicting the colonisation of NZ as enlightened people kindly bringing civilisation to the natives is not a credible claim.

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  66. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    wouldnt it be great if the royals just said “what is this shit?” as some naked native ran at them with a spear..

    or just cracked up laughing.

    Dime likes the royals but i cant wait for their visit to be over. its impossible to escape the sad media coverage.

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  67. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    milky: Take a look at archives of “DomPost”, “NZ Herald”, “Chch Press”, or is that too hard for a leftie that hates to see a mongrel exposed for what he is?

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  68. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Yeah, but the last time you gave me references they didn’t support what you had claimed.

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  69. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    isint it spawn
    I guess having read just about every piece of literature published before 1840 on nz means i dont know what i am talking about.The maori culture was brutally violent and had no redeeming futures applicable to modern life.The modern interpretations of the culture heavily censor the reality of violent abuse. Maori are held in the stone age by clinging to an unreal dream of a time that never existed. a lot like conservatives in that respect.

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  70. Ryan Sproull (7,129 comments) says:

    The reality of violent abuse in modern Western civilisation is pretty heavily censored too, Griffith, in its own way.

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  71. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “having read just about every piece of literature published before 1840″

    And who was that literature written by Griff?

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  72. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “maori culture was brutally violent”

    So was Western culture. The West had one war after another for several hundred years, including WW1 and2.

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  73. iMP (2,384 comments) says:

    …and the inevitable moderate minded fairplay public backlash against extreme LGBTiQ activists and OkCupid/Firefox Mozilla using Westboro Bapo tactics against innocent people begins, as it did for the Chic-Fil-A boycott and bullying.

    http://www.rightwingnews.com/gay-marriage/mozilla-feels-stinging-backlash-over-ceo-boot/

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  74. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    In the period you are talking about griffith, the UK had over 200 offences that merited the death penalty. Do you think that was a violant culture?

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  75. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    http://www.enzb.auckland.ac.nz/
    Get an education retard so you actually talk sence.
    Some early New Zealand books have been republished over the years but many are only available in restricted collections. The accounts of early travellers have been a prime source of information about traditional Maori society and culture. There is also great interest in accounts of the earliest British settlements.

    If you don’t like the written word there is always word of mouth like the te trity farce uses. weighing heavily on what granddad a century and a half removed said by word of mouth is not real history its unsopported mythical rubbish.

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  76. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,421 comments) says:
    April 8th, 2014 at 11:38 am
    “maori culture was brutally violent”

    So was Western culture. The West had one war after another for several hundred years, including WW1 and2.

    Just a small correction, but shouldn’t that read ‘so IS western culture?

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  77. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “Get an education retard so you actually talk sence.”

    I have one. You on the other hand clearly don’t. You claim that Maori culture was brutally violent to the point of having no redeemable virtues, yet anyone with an ounce of education in history could tell you that the West was far more brutally violent in many respects.

    The West had one bloody war after another for hundreds of years, including the two most genocidal and destructive wars in history.

    Far from talking from an educated perspective Griff, your just pulling pseudo-history out of your ass to justify your retarded bigotry.

    Your so often proclaimed “rational” outlook is looking more and more like verbal diarrhea, and smelling just as bad.

    Oh, and it’s SENSE educated boy.

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  78. Andrei (2,644 comments) says:

    So who is going to pay the overdue gas bill?

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  79. nasska (11,480 comments) says:

    From what I can gather, at no point were any Maori tribes forced to accept muskets as the only currency of trade. Rather the bloodthirsty natives valued them above all else.

    Surely the majority of people commenting on this forum are old enough to realise that during the past few decades history has been rewritten in order to promote the Tangata Whenua at the expense of the rest of us. Modern children have been given no alternative to the rubbish but there’s little excuse for adults not recognising the Koolaid for what it is.

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  80. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Yes Andrei, the Russkies will be needing that money pretty badly now they’ve got themselves well and truly in the cactus.

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  81. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    Naaska,

    there have certainly been some fairly romanticised views of both Maori culture and Maori history put out there, just as there are some very romanticised views of European colonisation being offered here.

    The truth is not at either extreme.

    The Hone Harawira’s and the Griff’s of NZ are two sides of the same coin.

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  82. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    @Milkmilo: I also recall Cunliffe’s bizarre reference, so I looked up. It must have taken all of a minute to find the article (written by Cunliffe in 2010): http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/3599620/Museum-challenges-the-logic-of-using-the-bomb

    Cunliffe wrote: …in the light of postwar history…. …it is questionable whether the potentially quicker end to World War II outweighed the consequences of that use.

    So igm is correct.

    You need to remember the Japanese Military wanted to fight to the very last person. OTOH, the Allies had suffered major losses taking Okinawa and knew another battle on the mainland would result in further, massive casualties. The Allies actually hoped the Emperor would intervene – and that’s exactly what happened… after the second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki, Emperor Hirohito instructed the Military to try and negotiate a peace. But, as we know, the Allies would only accept total surrender (Potsdam) and Hirohito subsequently addressed the Japanese people by radio broadcast (the first time the Japanese population had ever heard his voice) and told them of the unconditional surrender – IIRC, a week or so after Nagasaki.

    Sorted.

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  83. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    In the first half of the nineteenth century, however, individual iwi considered carrying their martial culture beyond the shores of New Zealand. At least three expeditions of conquest were planned: to Samoa, to Norfolk Island, and to the Chatham Islands, which did not become part of New Zealand until 1842. All these proposed expeditions were dependent on finding transport to those places: and that meant finding a European ship’s captain whose vessel was available for charter; or it meant Maori commandeering a vessel for the purpose.

    In the event there were no expeditions to Norfolk Island or to Samoa because the necessary transport was not secured. But there was an invasion of the Chathams Islands. Two Taranaki tribes then based in Wellington, Ngati Tama and Ngati Mutunga ki Poneke, hijacked a European vessel in 1835 and had themselves—a total of 900 people—delivered to Chatham Islands. There they takahi’d or walked the land to claim it; ritually killed around 300 Chatham Moriori out of a total of around 1600, and enslaved the survivors—separating husbands from wives, parents from children, forbidding them to speak their own language or practise their own customs, and forcing them to violate the tapus of their culture, whose mana was based on the rejection of violence.

    Was this a superior form of colonisation to that imposed by European on Maori? Did it respect the dignity and customs of the colonised? Did it acknowledge the mana whenua of the tchakat henu or indigenous people of the Chathams? It did not. It was what might now be called an exercise in ethnic cleansing. When Bishop Selwyn arrived in the islands in 1848, it was to discover that the Maori called Moriori “Paraiwhara” or “Blackfellas”; and it was to report that the Moriori population continued to decline at a suicidal rate as a consequence of kongenge or despair. Moriori slaves were not released and New Zealand law was not established on the islands until 1862, twenty years after they had become part of New Zealand. And it is that twenty years of neglect of fiduciary duty on the part of the Crown that is the basis for the Moriori claim to the Waitangi Tribunal, heard in 1994, but still not reported upon.

    http://www.sof.org.nz/origins.htm

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  84. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    :lol:

    I have read nz history directly from the source I don’t need others like dame orange to revise the reality of the historic butchery that was maori culture
    Genocide was practised by maori on maori over the entire area of New Zealand between 1815 and 1840.
    As each tribe was autonomous sovereign in the lands it held by force at this time Maori do reach the criteria for genocidal maniacs .
    Eating kids and woman slaves is not taking the mana of enemy killed in battle. the myth propagated by apologist revisionists.
    Te treaty myth says it was the settlers who were lawless :lol:
    you can not get much more lawless than maori were in the 1800 when they were busy committing genocide on each other.

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  85. wreck1080 (3,906 comments) says:

    Phew, 1/4 of Aucklanders now from asia. I never realised it was so high, at the same rate of growth Asians will be the majority in around 10-15 years.

    And yet the experts like BNZ’s Tony Alexander still deny that foreigners are causing house prices to rise.

    I wonder where all these people live then?

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  86. Andrei (2,644 comments) says:

    Yes Andrei, the Russkies will be needing that money pretty badly now they’ve got themselves well and truly in the cactus.

    I don’t know, mikenmild, the US Government owes Russia $120 Billion dollars or so, they could always call that in if things get tight.

    Then there is that little matter of keeping NATO troops in Afghanistan supplied. not to forget the astronauts in the ISS who need to hitch a ride in a Russian rocket to come home.

    etc

    Details, details details

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  87. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “you can not get much more lawless than maori were in the 1800 when they were busy committing genocide on each other.”

    WW1. WW2.

    Yes you can.

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  88. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    By the way I am writing this with a stone adze on the desk besides me .An artifact that was probably abandoned or lost in some of the slaughter of maori on maori on the north-east coast as hone from the far north attacked the local tribe with guns leading to them being totally wiped out.

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  89. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    And I’m writing this with a can of Zyklon B on mine. Well, not really, but you get the point, I hope.

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  90. MT_Tinman (3,184 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,423 comments) says:
    April 8th, 2014 at 10:28 am

    Ah, I see. So you are a racist dick then. Good to know.

    If you mean I do not view everything done by those with a brown skin as positive I plead guilty.

    You are obviously not bright enough to hold a discussion so from now on I won’t bother trying.

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  91. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    The Cannabis and psychoactive substances debate continues.

    Public Address: The perilous birth of the Psychoactive Substances Act

    Whale Oil: Where is Colorado’s predicted crime wave from legalisation?

    But there seems to be no political will to address it apart from the ALCP. The Greens seen lukewarm at best, it doesn’t fit with their marketing strategy. Cunliffe says Labour won’t decriminalise. No sign of anything from National on it. Winston and the rest aren’t likely to do anything.

    So we have momentum around the world, we have growing acknowledgement that things aren’t working here as they are but no sign of any change.

    Would this be a good issue to be driven non-partisan by the blogosphere?

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  92. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “If you mean I do not view everything done by those with a brown skin as positive I plead guilty.”

    No, I mean your claim that Britain should have thrashed Maori to an inch of their lives.

    “You are obviously not bright enough to hold a discussion so from now on I won’t bother trying.”

    Translation: “You have obviously exposed my racism so I’m going to run away like a snivelling coward and never talk to you again.”

    There, fixed it for you. :)

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  93. Ryan Sproull (7,129 comments) says:

    If you mean I do not view everything done by those with a brown skin as positive I plead guilty.

    MT_Tinman,

    You didn’t say, “I don’t view everything done by those with a brown skin as positive.”

    You said that New Zealand’s population should have been thrashed to within an inch of their lives and then ruled by a foreign invader. That’s the comment to which Shawn was directly responding.

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  94. Ryan Sproull (7,129 comments) says:

    Hmm. My comment is awaiting moderation.

    I’ll repeat it here:

    MT_Tinman,

    You didn’t say, “I don’t view everything done by those with a brown skin as positive.”

    You said that New Zealand’s population should have been thrashed to within an inch of their lives and then ruled by a foreign invader. That’s the comment to which Shawn was directly responding.

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  95. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    ShawnLH (1,426 comments) says:
    April 8th, 2014 at 12:12 pm

    there have certainly been some fairly romanticised views of both Maori culture and Maori history put out there, just as there are some very romanticised views of European colonisation being offered here.

    The truth is not at either extreme.
    ……
    there is a constant allusion to a an unknown historythat hiddes a monstrous crime and it seems to come form a certain corner that (for most people) denies definition. It seems to come from sociology and ideas about racism and white privelege and becomes an over riding guiding light that sullies objectivity.

    To conclude, we find ourselves in interesting times, which tend to be designated
    “postcolonial”. Questions may be asked about the “when” (Hall) and the “what” of
    postcolonialism (Mishra and Hodge). Thus there are chronological and existential
    issues to be addressed; and for white settler societies there is at least some
    recognition that things have changed. Included in these changes are role reversals
    relating to notions of history, legitimacy, privilege and difference. Edward Said
    (1994:35) has written that in the imperial imaginary, the expanding West met
    indigenes who were without agency and history. In the postcolonial period he notes
    that their history has been restored. However, we might add, for the settler history
    disappears as new sources of legitimacy are sought. Thus Jane Campion (1993:135)
    could write: ‘In contrast to the original people in New Zealand, the Māori people, we
    seem to have no history…’ Reshela DuPuis (1996:63) has offered a corrective, saying
    that ‘It is not true that Pākehā have no history in New Zealand, and certainly not
    true that they have no attachment to it. They simply have the conqueror’s luxury of
    ignoring the ugly parts of it – a luxury the Māori have never had. As victors, they
    have tried … to re-invent that history and erase competing memories of it’. ‘The
    history of Māori resistance to the eighteenth- and nineteenth-century European
    invasion of their homelands reveals one of the bloodiest, and longest, records of
    defiance in the annals of western colonialism’ (DuPuis 1996:58), making true W.G.
    Sebald’s (2005:82) assertion that ‘… those in whom memory lives on bring down
    upon themselves the wrath of others who can continue to live only by forgetting’
    (Sebald 2005:82). Where Fanon alluded to mimicry as Black Skin, White Masks, we
    now see white skin and brown masks. What does settler indigeniety mask? Put
    simply, privilege.

    http://www.tasa.org.au/conferences/conferencepapers07/papers/29.pdf%E2%80%8E
    I would have thought the retaking of Delhi by the British trumped the Maori wars as the British took revenge on anyone and everyone.
    The same sociologists who decry the treatment of Maori, paternalistickly over ride Maori feelings regarding immigration

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  96. Yvette (2,813 comments) says:

    srylands –
    David Farrar – Busted http://thestandard.org.nz/david-farrar-busted/
    _______
    Tim, I just saw a writer at The Standard  made a big deal about David Farrar getting a copy of a letter from the commerce select committee, as you suggested above. But if you read Farrar’s original post, he just paraphrases the story at the link he gave, which was a TV3 story from The Nation.
    The TV3 story says: “We have asked the select committee for a record of what was said at their recent meeting because it affects our business,” Countdown communications manager Kate Porter told NZ Newswire.
    David Farrar said: The so called threatening letter merely asks for a transcript of the last hearing – which is a routine request.
    Looks to me like Farrar was just quoting from your own show’s story.
    – by Dave Guerin on April 07, 2014 – 4th comment foot of the article

    Well spotted, Dave. That quote from Countdown came via NZ Newswire, which had obviously very promptly rung the company about the claim. We hadn’t seen the letter and so didn’t know its contents. If Countdown told NZ Newswire about the contents as it seems, then yes Farrar could have got it from that. Jones clearly thinks its contents are stronger than that, so I would reserve judgement until I’ve seen it or had other sources.
    Having said that it’s a third possibility I wasn’t aware of, so fair dues, I may have been barking up the wrong tree.
    – Tim Watkin on April 07, 2014 – 7th comment foot of the article
    http://pundit.co.nz/content/open-letter-to-david-farrar-on-his-erroneous-kiwiblog-post-re-countdown

    Reminiscent of Winston accusing Key of having security spy on him to know of Winston’s Dotcom visits,
    but Peters forgetting he’d talked to Herald gossip columnist Rachel Glucina less than a week earlier.

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  97. MT_Tinman (3,184 comments) says:

    No Ryan, you’re wrong once again.

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  98. Ryan Sproull (7,129 comments) says:

    About which part, MT?

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  99. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “No Ryan, you’re wrong once again.”

    Wow. One sentence simply claiming Ryan is wrong, without addressing that issue of what you really said. The power of your argument is devastating. NOT. :)

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  100. Ed Snack (1,872 comments) says:

    Shawn, don’t be so condescending about Maori culture, there were vicious wars fought for some time before muskets arrived, Maori did not need muskets to kill but it did give some advantage for a brief period when only some tribes had enough to make a difference.

    Also, I think you will find that there was no genocide practiced against the Tasmanian aborigines despite the best efforts of “progressive” historians to promote that idea. There were never very many Tasmanian aborigines in the first place and they were reduced in number drastically by disease to the point where they were no longer capable of existing as an independent culture. There’s no doubt that by occupying land European settlers would not have helped, but there is no credible evidence (plenty of manufactured evidence, but none that stands up to scrutiny) that any specific genocide style campaign was ever launched.

    The US does have a particularly bad record with regard to the various tribes, making agreements and then breaking them on a whim. Reading “Bury my Heart at Wounded Knee” is a sobering experience.

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  101. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    From Politics, lies and the Economy

    The point I’m trying to make here is that almost every statement Key and the Finance Minister make about the economy is nonsense, pure disinformation dipped in hypocrisy, sprayed with drivel and then airbrushed dry with horrible fucking lies.

    That’s not part of the conventional wisdom though, especially among political commentators who all have Bill English as a straight-talking dour, fiscal, prudent conservative instead of a big-spending, big-borrowing outrageously dishonest hypocrite who vomits out floods of obvious lies every time he opens his mouth.

    Written by a green financial whizz.

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  102. johnwellingtonwells (137 comments) says:

    WineOh 11.35 am – Dereck Quigley. He had great expectations of toppling Muldoon. As a minister, he was an absolute bastard to work with – he considered it was “his” department and he should be involved in its daily operation. The message came down from Muldoon to set Quigley up. Easy to do and he never knew who and what hit him. I am the only surving member of the three people allocated to this task – it was done with enthusiasm.

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  103. Manolo (13,754 comments) says:

    Silent T, the imbecilic Chardonnay socialist, moans to all and sundry:

    Labour leader David Cunliffe has hit out at how much time Prime Minister John Key is spending with the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge during their visit to New Zealand.

    Mr Cunliffe will be with the royals when they visit Blenheim on Thursday and he’ll also have a one-on-one meeting with Prince William at Government House in Wellington. However, Mr Key will be accompanying the couple at a number of other events, meaning he’ll get more time with them than Mr Cunliffe.

    “I guess he likes the camera time,” Mr Cunliffe told reporters on Tuesday.

    http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8826775/cunliffe-hits-out-at-pms-time-with-royals

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  104. backster (2,171 comments) says:

    GRIFF>>>>>>>”Genocide was practised by maori on maori over the entire area of New Zealand between 1815 and 1840.
    As each tribe was autonomous sovereign in the lands it held by force at this time Maori do reach the criteria for genocidal maniacs .”

    Yep but they didn’t smack their kids until the pakeha taught them how…ask Meteria.

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  105. Ross12 (1,425 comments) says:

    Manalo
    Definitely cry baby of the week !!!

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  106. Yvette (2,813 comments) says:

    Does today’s civil suit launched against Dotcom, by 20th Century Fox, Disney, Paramount, Universal, Columbia and Warner Bros, have to await a decision on Dotcom’s first deportation trial to answer the Jan 5, 2012 Grand Jury Indictment, or can it proceed independently?

    Does Chief High Court Judge Helen Winkelmann’s apparent position on the arrest and handling of evidence in the first “Grand Jury case” have any bearing on today’s new civil suit? Does there have to be two extradition cases? Can the US gain access to Dotcom for the civil suit and then hold him for the Grand Jury action?
    Is the evidence for the second newer case the same as that illegally obtained for the original Grand Jury indictment?

    Does Hone understand any of this?
    If a Mana / Dotcom “union party” gains seats in Parliament, then Dotcom disappears, the union party is no longer what electors voted for, so does it just remain status quo?
    If Dotcom is convicted can his party still be a legal entity if in Parliament?

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  107. publicwatchdog (2,593 comments) says:

    Seen this one Kiwibloggers?

    http://laudafinem.com/2014/04/08/kiwi-mp-john-banks-strike-three-four-seven-and-the-corrupt-bastards-still-out/

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

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  108. stephieboy (3,030 comments) says:

    Speaking of things civilized ,griffith might like to know that hanging, drawing and quartering was not abolished in England until 1870 by the Forfeiture Act .
    and the Witchcraft Act not repealed until 1950.
    The last public hanging was in 1856 and last execution was in 1964.

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  109. WineOh (630 comments) says:

    Elaycee- Appreciate that link, interesting article and actually his position in that context comes across mature and reasoned… maybe there is a human inside that shell somewhere after-all?

    I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with using the A-Bomb. I have read a number of conflicting accounts of the logic behind use of the bomb, and whether it was the motivating factor behind the surrender of Japan. One key documentary that I recall watching stated that it was the threat of the Russians entering the war and invading Japan that forced the surrender, rather than the threat of nuclear strikes. The fire-bombing of major Japanese cities had not dented the Japanese enthusiasm for war. The estimates from Allied military planners were for 500K+ killed, 7.5 million homeless. They estimate up to 900,000 Japanese died in the end. Think Dresden – but on a larger scale. Similar to German sentiments- the Japanese would much rather surrender to US & allied forces rather than the Russians. On the other hand, do you sacrifice the lives of another 250,000 civilians in order to save upwards of 1,000,000 military casualties?

    John Wells- I don’t know Dereck Quigley at all, thanks for the mention & will see if I can do some quick research to come up to speed.

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  110. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    Bwahahaha – the chalkboard says it all.
    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=723068894404954&set=a.612844102094101.1073741831.612831408762037&type=1&theater

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  111. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    Ed,

    “Shawn, don’t be so condescending about Maori culture, there were vicious wars fought for some time before muskets arrived, Maori did not need muskets to kill but it did give some advantage for a brief period when only some tribes had enough to make a difference.”

    I wasn’t being condescending, and I’m aware that they had violent wars. I’m married to a Maori, a Ngai Tahu girl. My point was a response to Griff’s ludicrous claim that Maori culture was so violent that it justified European colonisation. That point, like most of Griff’s self-satisfied rantings, is utter bollocks. In short, Griff’s rant was racist, smug, ignorant, and utterly disconnected from reality.

    But then, that’s Griff for you.

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  112. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    Proof there is no consensus on climate change.

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  113. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Interestingly
    maori practised a form of drawing and quartering they just declined to hang you first.
    They also practised eating parts of individuals as the dinner watched on
    Banks sketches from cooks voyages show heavily fortified pa were the normal living arrangement with warfare and raiding being a inseparable part of the culture

    Paul Moon and his book this horrid practise faced condemnation from the maori who deny their history

    Shortly after the book appeared, it was featured in numerous news reports and on the New Zealand television programme 60 Minutes. The publication of This Horrid Practice was controversial because of the book’s determination that cannibalism was widespread among New Zealand Māori until the mid-19th century. Māori cannibalism is a sensitive topic in New Zealand, and Moon anticipated that the book would be negatively received by some.[3]

    The book prompted an anonymous but formal complaint to the New Zealand Human Rights Commission, arguing that it “describes the whole of Maori society as violent and dangerous. This is a clearly racist view claiming a whole ethnic group has these traits.”[4]

    One of Moon’s critics, Margaret Mutu, acknowledged that cannibalism was widespread throughout New Zealand but argued that Moon, as a Pākehā, “did not understand the history of cannibalism and it was ‘very, very hard for a Pakeha to get it right on these things'”.[5]

    Moon responded by stating that Mutu had “condemned me and announced to the media that I did not understand the history of cannibalism, although she admitted to not having read even a single sentence of the book.”[6] Moon also charged his critics with attempted censorship and name-calling.[6]

    In one news report, Moon commented:

    What amazes me is that the critics who say I don’t understand the mechanisation of this practice often have not even read the book. Nor do they have evidence to the contrary. While they may not like its content, they can’t deny historical fact. And trying to censor this book is denying the past.[3]

    Personally I understand why the history before the treaty signing is not taught. We get the nobel savage bullshit from cultural revisionists because the reality means maori actually gave up sovereignty to protect themself from other maori not the settlers.

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  114. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I don’t think we get a concept of the Maori as ‘noble savage’ from any recent NZ historical work, actually. I’m thinking of Belich’s use of the ‘green Maori’ and ‘red Maori’ stereotypes here.

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  115. stephieboy (3,030 comments) says:

    griffith, I doubt eith you or Paul Moon could find local equivalents by the Maori that could equal the horrors perpetuated by the Japanese in Manchuria and elsewhere , not to mention the Nazis in the wild east of Poland and Russia etc,

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Horror-East-Laurence-Rees/dp/1849901678

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Nazis-Warning-From-History/dp/056349333X

    And these serve to remind us of just some the few horrors from West Europe’s past

    http://listverse.com/2009/07/20/top-10-gruesome-medieval-torture-devices/past

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  116. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Belich
    is a revisionist who spouts bullshit.
    Personally i don’t consider him or dame Orange as a reliable source for uncorrupted history. They represent more a source of nobel savage socalengineering propaganda from the chardonnay liberal academic elite.

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  117. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I just told you Belich’s work has nothing to do with the ‘noble savage’ thing. Can you cite one contemporary historian who holds to the noble savage idea?

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  118. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    @Wine-Oh: Agree… the imminent threat of Russia declaring war on Japan was also a factor.

    FWIW, I visited the Yashukan War Museum in Tokyo a couple of years back and was stunned to read the Japanese account of history…. for example, they even referred to the 1930’s Manchurian invasion / Nanking atrocities as ‘incidents’… Incidents! FFS!!!

    The Japanese generation born after the War knew very little about Pearl Harbour – they were taught in school the US were the aggressors and Japan’s attack on the US Fleet was a retaliation…. they were taught Japan only attacked Pearl Harbour because the US was hindering their attempts to ‘expand’ in the Dutch East Indies (rubber, oil etc). But little did they know, several decades later this same generation would be able to read about things for themselves – via the Internet.

    When it came to the dropping of the atomic bombs / the Japanese surrender etc, the only reference in the entire War Museum (that traces back to the days the Samurai was ‘born’ approx 1900 years ago) was a solitary A4 page on a plinth that said (in effect), Japan had been bombed twice by the USA and, in order to avoid further loss of (Japanese) life, the Emperor told the Japanese Military to surrender – an event that was formalised on board the USS Missouri, anchored in Tokyo Bay, in 1945. That was it!

    Had my (late) Dad been with me, he would have been horrified – the Japanese portrayal of the events of WWII were in stark contract to his own experiences in the Pacific theatre.

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  119. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Someone who maintains the maori beat the british at war :lol:
    they didn’t fight the british they ran away
    All who quote the settlers ” lawlessness” Bullshit from the missions are revisionist propaganda merchants.
    The so-called land wars were about enforcing nationhood on a bunch of tribal savages intent on continuing their destructive stone age culture. some thing that both maori and european benefited from In the long-term.
    They were in reality an extension of the musket tribal wars before 1840 not totally separate as belch and dame dingbat claim.

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  120. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    As Stephen Ambrose put it:
    ‘The Japanese presentation of the war to its children runs something like this: “One day, for no reason we ever understood, the Americans started dropping atomic bombs on us.”‘

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  121. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    So griffith, I take it you can’t name any contemporary historian maintaining the myth of the noble savage.

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  122. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    Multilingual countries have it tough. GDP per person is roughly correlated with the proportion of a country’s citizens that speak the predominant language. With a few outliers, you’re more likely to be rich if your country lacks what is sometimes known as a “stateness” problem: the Icelands and Japans of the world have a very clear identity and a dominant language. If your country’s citizens feel comfortable in its borders, your country is stable. If it is stable, it is more likely to be a functioning democracy, and if it is a decent democracy, it is more likely to be rich.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2014/04/language-conflict?fsrc=nlw

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  123. cha (4,010 comments) says:

    Genocide was practised by maori on maori over the entire area of New Zealand between 1815 and 1840.

    Fucking amateurs, 60 million in thirty years, that’s how you do genocide.

    .

    The Parable of the Old Man and the Young

    So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went,
    And took the fire with him, and a knife.
    And as they sojourned both of them together,
    Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father,
    Behold the preparations, fire and iron,
    But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?
    Then Abram bound the youth with belts and straps,
    and builded parapets and trenches there,
    And stretchèd forth the knife to slay his son.
    When lo! an angel called him out of heaven,
    Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,
    Neither do anything to him. Behold,
    A ram, caught in a thicket by its horns;
    Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.

    But the old man would not so, but slew his son,
    And half the seed of Europe, one by one.

    Wilfred Owen

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  124. Andrei (2,644 comments) says:

    Common sense from Sergei Lavrov, which it will go right over the heads of the usual suspects here.

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  125. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Sergei Lavrov: ‘Russia is doing all it can to promote early stabilisation in Ukraine.’ That will be why they are demanding billions for gas, massing troops on the border and fomenting unrest among the Russian-speaking parts of the population.

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  126. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    The Maori historian Buddy Mikaere has referred to a tendency on the part of Pakeha historians to depict Maori as, invariably, deeply spiritual beings who only ever act on the basis of high-minded principles; and Pakeha as unprincipled rogues or fools whose behaviour is always motivated by racial arrogance, greed and self-interest.

    Mikaere made these comments with specific reference to The Story of New Zealand by Judith Bassett, Keith Sinclair and Marcia Stenson. But the imprint of the approach to history he identifies can be found in Anne Salmond’s book Two Worlds, First Meetings Between Maori aud Europeans 1642-1772 (though interestingly enough not in its sequel, Between Two Worlds). It rests heavily on James Belich’s series of television documentaries on the New Zealand Wars. And it is there in Fergus Clunie’s recent writings on missionary activity in and around the Bay of Islands.

    In the first instance, that of Anne Salmond, it is revealed in a determrnation to expose the more brutal features of seventeenth and eighteenth century European society without acknowledging comparable behaviour by Maori; and to judge every aspect of European activity in New Zealand in the harshest light, and every manifestation of Maori behaviour in the most benevolent and positive way.

    Belich’s documentaries highlight behaviour of the nincompoop variety, whilst potraying Maori as almost always making decisions that were admirable and strategically sound. And Fergus Clunie sees early missionary actions as being designed, not to give Maori the benefit of European technology in such areas as food production and house construction, but solely to make Maori dependent on the technology with a view to advancing the process of colonisation and parting them from their land.

    http://www.sof.org.nz/origins.htm
    Sounds like Noble Savage to me?

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  127. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Pointless MM
    you just belive the revisionist History crap we are fed .

    Reading te ara gives you an overview of revisionist history http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/treaty-of-waitangi/page-1

    White man bad / maori nobel savage who was treated badly by evil whitey settlers :lol: all 2,000 settlers 1840 spread around the entire country beating up the sixty or so thousand well armed and seasoned fighters. :lol: really

    How about genocide bad eating human flesh bad
    Only the chatams are officially recognised as a genocide
    Ignoring the rest is bullshit. just as basing treaty settlements on who managed to kill who before 1840 is crap.

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  128. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    You keep banging on about the ‘noble savage’ but can’t quote sources for that point of view.

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  129. stephieboy (3,030 comments) says:

    cha, the Wilfred Owen poem is very fine but to deep for griffith to comprehend.

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  130. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Ok any one want Griff to go back to AGW now? :lol:

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  131. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “The so-called land wars were about enforcing nationhood on a bunch of tribal savages intent on continuing their destructive stone age culture.”

    Good Lord, you really have to be a mindless fuckwit to spout this crap Griff.

    MM has you over a barrel. You cannot name one scholar to support your claim, and you have failed (run away like a coward) to explain how anything Maori did compares to what Europeans did in both world wars. You just close your mind to any other possibility than your mindless racism and pretend you have not had your ass handed to you on a plate with this one.

    “Rational”? Damn, you can barely manage the intellectual feats of a syphilis ridden retarded monkey, let alone anything approaching reason.

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  132. stephieboy (3,030 comments) says:

    griff its hard to reconcile your views on climate change on one hand and decidedly anti Maori prejudices. This can only lead me to the conclusion that you are likely a troll.!

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  133. Reid (16,442 comments) says:

    griff its hard to reconcile your views on climate change on one hand and decidedly anti Maori prejudices.

    Why is that hard for you stephie?

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  134. Andrei (2,644 comments) says:

    ‘Russia is doing all it can to promote early stabilisation in Ukraine.’ That will be why they are demanding billions for gas, massing troops on the border and fomenting unrest among the Russian-speaking parts of the population.

    Lol I knew it would go over your head mikenmild.

    They are just charging the Ukraine the same for gas as they charge everybody else – they have been subsidizing it for years to help Ukraine out but now there is a hostile Government in charge the subsidizes are gone and they wnat to be paid for the (subsidized gas) already delivered and not yet paid for. Nothing unreasonable there

    Mikenmad virtually everybody in Ukraine speaks Russian, the Ukrainian language was developed from a dialect of Russian from Galacia in the late 1800s in the Austro Hungarian Empire – deliberatly made as different from Russian as possible to cause splits within the East Slavic populations.

    Ukrainization was the promotion of this language by the bolsheviks for reasons I do not know but it didn’t take because the language was nothing like the way little Russians (who became Ukrainians) for the most part spoke entirely different dialects and the Ukrainization policy was dropped.

    Ukrainization was revived after Ukrainian independence and has been extremely controversial in Ukraine ever since.

    But twenty years ago, at least, everybody spoke Russian in daily life, with a Ukrainian accent.

    Even Yulia Timoshenko speaks Russian in private, as evidenced by that bugged phone call released a few days ago

    Here is a debate on the matter in the Rada from just about one year ago today

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  135. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    You will have to explain to me again why Russia changing its policy over gas supply to Ukraine will promote early stabilisation.

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  136. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    I see so Europeans eat the slaves they took Nom Nom Nom and even made them prepare and jump into their own ovens.

    Harvesting fellow humans for food is not evident in any modern genocide.Nor is farming human heads as trade goods evident

    Any one who thinks the maori were better of pre contact needs their head smoked

    A life style based on brutality is not a valid culture for 2014

    . And you idiots wonder why maori are overrepresented in violent crime and abuse? it’s from before us not anything to do with whitey or colonization

    Look at their cultural reality from pre contact you know the one you are busy encouraging them to return to :lol: what do you think happens when you re connect to such a brutal cultural history .

    The research I have seen says you end up with more abuse and violence…….Too many Maori are a bunch of feral busy killing their children’s future in an obsession with following an obsolete stone age brutal and violent culture.. .

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  137. All_on_Red (1,582 comments) says:

    griffith (629 comments) says:
    April 7th, 2014 at 6:57 pm
    Shall we go again all in red?

    What? Another round? You’ve been knocked out so many times you must be punch drunk and brain damaged. Oh wait….

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  138. nasska (11,480 comments) says:

    I note the usual screams for “peer backed studies” by “contemporary experts” before the layman is allowed to express an opinion.

    There won’t be any & there can’t be any because every over educated “expert” will be a product of the politically correct, revisionist, mindwashing factories we fondly term “universities”. No one with an “incorrect” attitude will ever graduate to a level where his/her opinion is allowed to count for jackshit.

    The engineering of the minds of the citizens of the glorious people of Aotearoa is nearly complete….in another few years the facts of our history will have been completely rewritten.

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  139. Ryan Sproull (7,129 comments) says:

    I see so Europeans eat the slaves they took Nom Nom Nom and even made them prepare and jump into their own ovens.

    Harvesting fellow humans for food is not evident in any modern genocide.Nor is farming human heads as trade goods evident

    Any one who thinks the maori were better of pre contact needs their head smoked

    A life style based on brutality is not a valid culture for 2014

    . And you idiots wonder why maori are overrepresented in violent crime and abuse? it’s from before us not anything to do with whitey or colonization

    Look at their cultural reality from pre contact you know the one you are busy encouraging them to return to :lol: what do you think happens when you re connect to such a brutal cultural history .

    The research I have seen says you end up with more abuse and violence…….Too many Maori are a bunch of feral busy killing their children’s future in an obsession with following an obsolete stone age brutal and violent culture.. .

    Yowza.

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  140. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    griffith
    You are not really able to make a case that Maori were uniquely violent, even in comparison with the culture that colonised NZ. You seem to believe that Maori over-representation in crime statistics relates to the nature of Maori society pre-colonisation. Would you like to explain how Maori crime stats have trended from, say, the 1930s to today in relation to your thesis?

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  141. stephieboy (3,030 comments) says:

    Andrei, the brawl in the Ukraine parliament pales in comparison with Putin’s murder of Journalists ,

    http://larussophobe.wordpress.com/putinmurders/

    Items you will not see on the Kremlin and Putin controlled and censored RT.

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  142. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Gee mike read up on when maori left their little isolated community’s and traveled to the city’s for work .
    That was in the fifty and sixties.
    Mike go and research the maorifaction efforts in the justice system. The horror is the cultural courses have resulted in more family violence .
    Being of maori blood doesn’t make you more likely to be a criminal.Identifying as maori is a factor that gives you around four times more chance of being involved in crime
    30% of self identified male maori adults do time in jail .
    vrs around 5% for the rest of us.

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  143. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    You think the Maori move to the cities resulted in more crime? Are you sure it wasn’t their pre-colonial savagery?

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  144. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    @mikenmild, the problem is very clear – you’re getting all your information about Maori from alt blogs written by whackjob conspiracy theorists that disagree with the consensus.

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  145. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    RN
    Is it okay if I agree with griffith about climate change and disagree with him about everything else?

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  146. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    That’s between you and your cognitive dissonance, leave me out of it.

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  147. cha (4,010 comments) says:

    A little light reading.

    http://www.academia.edu/3420138/Agentura_Soviet_Informants_Networks_and_the_Ukrainian_Underground_in_Galicia_1944-48

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  148. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    griffith (631 comments) says:
    April 7th, 2014 at 6:57 pm

    Shall we go again all in red?

    RSS
    Temperature anomaly series,

    http://images.remss.com/msu/msu_time_series.html

    The one you use to support your no warming since 1997 meme

    Cherry pick That being a point were the biggest el Nino last century caused global temperature anomaly to jump .3 degrees c

    This satellite derived series has the interesting function of having the atmosphere sliced into different layers.

    What starts as a warming trend at the lower troposphere channel TLT +0.124k decade

    becomes a cooling trend at the top of the stratosphere C14 -0.761k decade

    Like your bed when you pile on an extra blanket becoming colder on its outer surface and hence warmer in side.because less heat is escaping to space.

    Are you going to admit that your series that you attempt to use to prove no warming actually if you understand AGW and what the rss is reinforces that the warming has not stopped. Or do you think that the satellite record is wrong now?
    -0.761k decade cooling of the higher stratosphere means that energy is being retained by the troposphere. simple physics.

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  149. nasska (11,480 comments) says:

    Mikenmild

    When the Maori moved to the cities for work they left behind an organised society dominated by a hierarchy of elders & chiefs.

    As such they started well behind the eight ball when it came to interacting with the rest of society…..there’s a regrettably high percentage who have never caught up.

    Edit: Strangely enough I agree with Griff on most things except his whacko weather predictions. :)

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  150. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    nasska
    I agree with that, but it’s not what Griffith is arguing. He is arguing that Maori violence is directly related to the nature of pre-colonial Maori society. That ignores decades of peaceful Maori communities between colonisation and the move to the cities.

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  151. big bruv (13,886 comments) says:

    Still trying to rewrite history I see Mike.

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  152. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    mike you have no proof of your alleged “peaceful maori ”
    I on the over hand have the numbers on my side
    as already pointed out it is not race its culture specifically a pre contact one that reinforces only tribal elegances. Maori culture teachers that the other ( the rest of us ) are prey not tribe This is a hold over from pre contact
    one that pre existed our settler ideas of society

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  153. Reid (16,442 comments) says:

    Yet more writing on the wall.

    http://usawatchdog.com/whole-eastern-world-rebelling-against-the-dollar-jim-willie/

    But what’s the bet the idiot journo’s will still act all shocked when it finally happens…

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  154. nasska (11,480 comments) says:

    Reid

    Read that link & much of it makes sense.

    If it all comes to pass how do you see it impacting on NZ?

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  155. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “A life style based on brutality is not a valid culture for 2014″

    Was it valid in the 30’s and 40’s when Europeans were slaughtering each other in the millions, one hundred years after supposedly bringing civilisation to the fuzzy wuzzies?

    Your selective cherry picking regarding violence and brutality is just a cover for irrational and mindless race hatred.

    What is not acceptable for 2014 is 19th century racist attitudes to anyone who does not have white skin.

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  156. Reid (16,442 comments) says:

    Depends how China is impacted. When it loses the US and the EU its economy is in deep trouble but it knows that which is why its been hoarding gold and building up its BRICS and SE Asian alliances. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Japan and China come much closer together as a result, as well.

    But there’ll be a total collapse of confidence right across the West and there won’t be any recovery for the US because it has no cards left to play, so it’s a question of what is the US going to do, and my pick is war is 60/40 likely, but the question is, with who: Syria? Iran? Russia? China? All of them? And what will that mean for us given Aus will 100% stick with the US. But if there is no war then we need to forget everything else except China and focus everything on that. Which we won’t do, but that’s what we should do.

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  157. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    Interesting that we have had stone age attitudes to women from Big Bruv and stone age attitudes to race from Griff, both staunch atheists who like to loudly proclaim how progressive, rational and civilised they are.

    Proof that atheism does not automatically produce better people, better moral character or better societies, let alone reason and progress.

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  158. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    griffith
    I’ve read your 5.17pm a couple of times and have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say.

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  159. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    Yes selective stats spawn

    find a fucking statistic that maori shine in boy

    go ahead front with facts not your habitual bullshit.

    Shall we mention 10 times more maori kids bashed to death?. lovely number …EH…10 wee defenceless maori kiddies beaten to death by their loving parents for every white kid treated the same.

    fucking Rationalist not left not right not a liberal or a conservative or even racist

    Griff is a rationalist and not swayed by your group think identities.

    Freedom is not belonging to a socal group identity blindly

    Be an independent thinker and freedom becomes defined as a bonus.

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  160. Yvette (2,813 comments) says:

    Television ONE just announces they have asked every MP if they are the one cited by Dotcom as being ready to “join” the Internet Party – EVERYONE but Hone Harawira and John Key.

    And of course it IS Hone.

    ONE dumb arses – right under your noses all the time – sacré bleu.
    Hone has already lied once in connection with this.
    Ha! – and Dotcom will probably not name him now for fear of a backlash and his only ticket into Parliament will be gone.
    Merde. What a stupage

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  161. Lucia Maria (2,424 comments) says:

    Reid,

    I had a look at your link that you gave Shawn yesterday .. your test link, remember it? The link accuses most of the recent popes of supporting pantheism. As proof of this pantheism the link presupposes that the ecumenism the Church has been actively involved in over recent decades has at it’s aim a kind of pantheistic unity between all the world’s religions.

    You wanted to know if Shawn thought there was anything untrue in that link – well, I’m not Shawn, but I can tell you categorically that none of the recent popes supported pantheism, nor do they want to create a pantheistic world religion.

    The problem with the link is that it takes very select things and creates meaning out of very little so that people who believe in some sort of conspiracy will be fooled. It’s not really aimed at people like me who read what the recent popes have written and know in an I’d stake my life on it way that what is being said is rubbish.

    Is the writer some sort of Traditionalist who hates Vatican II and believes that Pope Paul VI was replaced with an imposter? I have a cousin that is like this and he’s just off the planet. Said he’d believe the devil if what he said he could recognise as truth. My brother and I tried to talk sense into him and said people who mix truth with lies are the most dangerous types and it’s best to ignore EVERYTHING they say, least you be lead astray. He seemed to stop and think that maybe that would be a good idea.

    I think it would be a good idea with the link you gave – it mixes truth with lies, lies in interpretation.

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  162. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    griffith
    It’s nice to be a rationalist, but it’s not rational to attribute higher rates of violence among Maori to the nature of their pre-contact society.

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  163. slijmbal (1,236 comments) says:

    @ShawnLH

    “Proof that atheism does not automatically produce better people, better moral character or better societies, let alone reason and progress.”

    As an atheist brought up in a highly religious environment I agree on the better people and moral character side. I disagree on the reason side.

    I know plenty of bad Christians AND atheists, including those who represent themselves as highly religious or highly rational. The majority of both tend to be decent people. Religion is surprisingly ineffective at reducing the propensity for ‘badness’ despite its explicit intent. I can only conclude being ‘a bad person’ is mostly inherent in the person.

    However, I tend to find religious people are generally less rational compared to atheists with significantly less scientific understanding, in particular.

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  164. Steve (North Shore) (4,560 comments) says:

    The Moari problem is ‘Once were Warriors’
    If the warrior gene is still there, nothing will change – you can only evolve so fast. And on top of all that, nobody can be responsible for what their ancestors did or did not do. Some of us have English, German, French, Dutch etc ancestry, but I am not asked to pay for the Wars they won/lost.
    All land has ben won by conquest, but how come I have to pay Moari? What is wrong with this picture?

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  165. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    MM – do you think rationalists adopt Occum’s razor?

    PS. Take it easy. He’s starting to adopt the third person narrative again.

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  166. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Occam’s Razor is fine to a point. It’s not a hard and fast rule.

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  167. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    If the warrior gene is still there, nothing will change – you can only evolve so fast.

    Yowza again. That came straight out of the slavery era US of A. Woof.

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  168. nasska (11,480 comments) says:

    It might just work. :)

    Ref: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qaupj5qvbd2iki0/Peace.jpg

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  169. slijmbal (1,236 comments) says:

    @Steve

    I suggest it’s more cultural. I was brought up in a very white Liverpool environment where it made any Maori or South Auckland stats look positively benign.

    violence and crime were seen in a relatively +ve light.

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  170. itstricky (1,830 comments) says:

    All land has ben won by conquest, but how come I have to pay Moari?

    I think they call it a treaty.

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  171. EAD (1,072 comments) says:

    Reid @ 5.27 – good link thanks

    The current reserve currency represents a nation with a decaying labor force, stagnating wage structure, no real manufacturing base, exponential debt growth, personal privilege, and incompetent government yet all its citizens want raises, pensions, Obama phones, big flash houses, credit cards, and health care all on borrowed money. Seems like you don’t even have to be a gold bug to understand the realities of what lies ahead.

    And it is for those reasons that China is buying gold. China can totally see what’s happening. The reserve currency is only valid if everyone respects what’s behind it, and to that end the US reserve is on its death bed and will die.

    So gold seems to be the only rational wealth preservation mechanism. It’s not an investment, it’s an asset. US dollars are not.

    Ignore the trolls and do what China is doing, or be left behind.

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  172. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    The warrior gene is still there in all of us, regardless of where we came from. Socialisation has dulled it, but believe me, in the right circumstances, pushed to our limits, its there! ;-)

    It is integral to survival, and very much part of our personal defence system – the only difference being that Europeans had hundreds of years of agrarian and then industrial society that saw a change from the constant need to use violence as a means to survive, to adopting other means of control (MONEY!!).

    But even the most snottiest peace loving snob has a warrior within – anyone that tells you they would never use violence, just hasn’t been tested in the right circumstance yet…

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  173. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “Be an independent thinker”

    You mean a knuckle dragging stone age racist like you Griff? No thanks.

    I know what the stats are. It’s your KKK style interpretation that is irrational crap.

    Far from being a tribless free thinker Griff, your just another mindless and unthinking member of the tribe of angry white men who are pissed off that they can no longer dictate to the fuzzy wuzzies, or kick them around when your meaningless and wasted life gets you depressed.

    There is nothing special about you Griff. Backwards looking angry racists are a dime a dozen.

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  174. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    slijmbal,

    “I know plenty of bad Christians AND atheists”

    I agree, which is why I was careful to use the word “automatically” when making my point, as in ‘this does not automatically lead to that.’

    It was aimed at the militant fundamentalist atheists who infest this blog, and who have managed to turn atheism into a quasi-religious cult.

    “” I tend to find religious people are generally less rational compared to atheists with significantly less scientific understanding,”

    Not my personal experience, but experience is subjective.

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  175. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Only a quasi-religious cult? I thought you claimed atheism was an actual religion.

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  176. kowtow (8,445 comments) says:

    Our news leads with Peaches , a personal tragedy ,but not world news.But a member nation of the UN can pass sentences like this! and it remains unremarked.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/10751110/Christians-in-Pakistan-sentenced-to-death-over-a-text.html

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  177. Pete George (23,559 comments) says:

    *Language warning.
    ** Hat tip Whale Oil
    ***Some people may be offended (but watch it right through)
    Fuck the poor?
    [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBuC_0-d-9Y&w=640&h=390

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  178. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “Only a quasi-religious cult? I thought you claimed atheism was an actual religion.”

    It is. But I was distinguishing between the standard form which is just a religion, and the militant form, which has cult like tendencies, hence “quasi-religious CULT.”

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  179. wikiriwhis business (3,996 comments) says:

    Why There Are No Jobs In America – Chuck Missler .

    This is a real EYE OPENER! BRIEF and to the POINT

    The destruction of the dollar is almost complete

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  180. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Except that atheism is not a relgion; it’s the absence of religion.

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  181. wikiriwhis business (3,996 comments) says:

    Dead Banker Number # 26 Dutch Bank ABN Amro .

    Published on Apr 7, 2014

    Jan Peter Schmittmann 57 and his wife and daughter dead in their home http://www.paulbegleyprophecy.com

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  182. nasska (11,480 comments) says:

    Let’s play a game. Find the similarities in the pics.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/qkb317lzt6k13ok/Godwhacks%201.jpg

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/h0dzyhak3uoc6mt/Godwhacks%202.jpg

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/nfw08brtfpf37cw/Godwhacks%203.gif

    Now find me a picture of an atheist battle attire or military insignia. It will be impossible because atheism has no symbol, no inspired message, no doctrines & no ideology to be pushed on others.

    Even if you think that religion was just the “tool” used to “sell” people into the war why do you think they “bought” it? Without a religious facade to stand behind Hitler would have found little support for his cause (global domination bred from racism), the witch hunts would have had no “righteous judgement” to impose on “demonic witches,” & there would be no reason for the Crusades to have ever occurred. There would have been no Pope to sanction the wars as “just,” no “Christian” control to establish over “Muslims,” & the “Holy Land” would just be another piece of worthless desert.

    Could be an improvement over what we’ve got now.

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  183. kowtow (8,445 comments) says:

    nasska is talking anti Christian shite as usual.

    Try the hammer and sickle, some red stars,etc ,Communism is an atheist ideology. And if nasska must pick on a religion of hate,try the Muslims,they’re the threat.

    The crusades were a push back.What does n’arsekisser want? Surrender.

    Fuck off anti Christian shit stirrer.

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  184. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Three or four naughty questions.

    If atheism were a religion, what would freedom from religion require?

    How come Russia’s new gas charge to the Ukraine is higher than the charge to EU nations?

    If the Zionists learnt about colonisation and re-settlement from the European Christians who conquered the New World and built worldwide empire, why the critical focus of their nationalism from Christian Europeans? Is their imitation offensive, rather than fawning subordinate flattery?

    PS. All nationalisms are much the same when there is conflict.

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  185. nasska (11,480 comments) says:

    Re the sheep disease epidemic in Wales:

    Hospitals right across Wales are getting ready for
    a birth explosion this coming Xmas and are already
    trying to recruit extra medical staff to cope.

    “It’s is a worrying side effect of foot and mouth,
    with the countryside closed off and so many dead
    sheep, our women are bound to be getting a bit
    more attention,” said Glyn Lloyd Jones of South
    Glamorgan Health Trust.

    The Welsh Women’s League has reported that they
    are overjoyed with the situation and are campaigning
    for a stop to sheep farming in Wales for good.

    “It’s wonderful. All the women in our village are
    getting some at the moment,” said a 25 year old
    Welsh munter who preferred not to be named.

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  186. lilman (958 comments) says:

    Seriously this Geldof situation needs some reality.
    Mum was a heavy user and dies from overdose.
    Dad has a drug history.
    Daughter dies and has drug history.
    Then the news release is ,”cant believe shes dead”.”was the smartest”,”pain doesnt describe this feeling”
    For god sake the child was raised with drugs,was in a social network that uses drugs and the family say,WE ARE STUNNED!
    Get a grip.

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  187. kowtow (8,445 comments) says:

    re Geldof

    Our shit media keep calling him Sir Bob,wrong. As an Irish national he is an honorary knight and NOT referred to as Sir.

    Peaches was married to a guy who played in a group called S C U M, ’nuff said.

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  188. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Two thoughts on how our royalty is based on two salient points, and is the reconciliation of them.

    Having a foreign royal is a form of national nihilism.

    In the absence of a national constitution we have instead reliance on the inheritance of a constitution within parliament tradition (the UK also lacks a constitution) to fall back on.

    The irrational absurdity is convenient because agreement on a constitution is not easy to realise.

    Thus the Crown office of Charles, William and George is the price we pay for our own laziness and discord.

    Exploiting foreign disunity to establish and sustain imperial power is the bread and butter work (made manifest by royal visits) of the enthroned and their heirs.

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  189. stephieboy (3,030 comments) says:

    Reid, Chuck Missler and The Peanut Butter argument: The Atheist’s Nightmare,

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Peanut_butter_argument

    Is Missler a Harvard or Chicago University based economist or does he belong to the Austrian School.?

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  190. kowtow (8,445 comments) says:

    SPC

    What discord?

    The UK does not lack a constitution,nor do we. We both do have constitutions.What we don’t have is a single document that can be pointed at and said That is our constitution.

    Discord? Nope .we countries with UK constitutional monarchies are among the stablest and most prosperous,why change a good thing?

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  191. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Buggered if I know how all you losers pay your bills?

    It’s the same old faces on here from 8:07 till now……. When the only honest, hard-working man here, can get time to comment.

    I guess you are all on the bene or related to Kate and Will’s! :)

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  192. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    If atheism were a religion, what would freedom from religion require?

    agnosticism

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  193. Reid (16,442 comments) says:

    none of the recent popes supported pantheism

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html

    Not that you’ll buy this Lucia and not that I have any evidence but my guts telling me there’s something very peculiar about Francis, and not just because he took over from the very last Pope in Malachy’s prophecy.

    Reid, Chuck Missler and The Peanut Butter argument: The Atheist’s Nightmare,

    stephie what the heck does that have to do with anything? I repeat: anything.

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  194. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    kowtow, discord over what constitution we would have, if we had one. You outright oppose even having one – testimony to the discord that even the idea of this arouses (a constitution within parliament tradition is one where there is no written constitution).

    Imperial religions love imperial thrones and imperial thrones love imperial religion. Even empires have nationalism’s, the Arab Moslems call their one caliphate.

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  195. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    You know that supposed prophecy is pure hokum, don’t you Reid?

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  196. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    In the absence of a national constitution we have instead reliance on the inheritance of a constitution within parliament tradition (the UK also lacks a constitution) to fall back on.

    While there is no written constitution, an unwritten constitution exists, hints as to the nature of the constitution can be found in documents like the Magna Carta.

    The irrational absurdity is convenient because agreement on a constitution is not easy to realise.

    Agreement is difficult because of the divergence of the practice of the state from the unwritten constitution.

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  197. stephieboy (3,030 comments) says:

    Reid (15,380 comments) says:
    April 8th, 2014 at 9:00 pm

    What does an End of Times Preacher and Creationists like Chuck Missler know about economics , or the international banking system. and currencies like the dollar. ?

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  198. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    It’s your KKK style interpretation that is irrational crap.

    Oh dear it is not the numbers its discussing the reason for the numbers that is giving you tummy wobbles.

    Griff has gone from being a gala worshiping nutter to heil hitler .

    And you belive that maori social statistics are caused by ?

    colonial oppression?

    New Zealand as a whole committed atrocity after atrocity at Parihaka they even broke a kids ankle accidentally.

    Sorry spawn I don’t feel any guilt about what happened in nz before I was born let alone what happened in ancient history.

    My history is not the same as telling kids about the evil settlers and the mighty maori worrier.

    Instead it has whaler sealers lumbermen missionary remittance men landlords traders and sailers.all living in the furthest place in the world.

    It was a place of extreme hardship and hard work just to eek out a living for most.

    They played hard in their limited down time. Think what a full on western salon or a nantucket harbour whalers bar would be like .

    New Zealand was wilder than the states by degrees at that time .

    Imagine a streight laced missionary exposed to prostitution , drinking gambling

    Horrified

    No worse than he would be at the debauchery down at the low rent district of his howe town.

    Read the history it was the missionary’s buying the land up that caused most tension.

    Telling the treaty story without telling the truth of the preceding forty years is the racist bit buddy not the real history.

    Recognising that maori are responsable for the state of their culture not me is the hate crime you accuse me of.

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  199. Viking2 (11,467 comments) says:

    Grandma’s Home Remedies…..

    “For better digestion I drink beer, in the case of appetite loss I drink white wine, in the case of low blood pressure I drink red wine, in the case of high blood pressure I drink scotch, and when I have a cold I drink schnapps.”

    “When do you drink water?”

    “I’ve never been that sick!”

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  200. Reid (16,442 comments) says:

    What does an End of Times Preacher and Creationists know about economics , or the international banking system. and currencies like the dollar. ?

    Who gives a fuck, stephie. DID WHAT HE SAY MAKE SENSE? That’s the only thing you need to consider you complete and utter dipshit. Let me give you a clue stephie. The only time you need to give a shit about the credibility of the source 100% is when you’re in uni trying desperately to regurgitate what you just read in your stupid little textbook and make endless loc cits and op cits in your stupid little footnotes so the incredibly brainy lecturer who knows every single little thing will be so impressed with your regurgitation ability, he’ll give you an A.

    When you get into life you stupid little amoeba you’re supposed to do your very own thinking and therefore you can read an article from Commie Bastard Daily on JP Morgan and THINK FOR YOURSELF whether or not it makes any sense and NOT treat it automatically as complete rubbish just cos it comes from the commies.

    That’s the first and last time I’ll explain that to you stephie, suffice to say if you make a LOGICAL point about the CONTENT of something I post then I will possibly even probably respond but if your naive pathetic rejoinder consists of a childishly simplistic snotty little 20-something uninformed critique of the source then I won’t even bother calling you a fuckwit because a response of that idiotic kind doesn’t even deserve the wear and tear of the “f” on my keyboard.

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  201. stephieboy (3,030 comments) says:

    Oh Dear. ! Reid, obviously for you the Truth hurts.!
    Really hurts.!
    Chuck Missler make sense.?
    Of course not.!

    http://talkrational.org/showthread.php?t=38299

    and,

    http://news4themasses.wordpress.com/2012/01/20/slight-of-hand-false-prophet-chuck-missler-still-on-speaker-schedule-with-other-calvary-chapel-discerners/

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  202. Reid (16,442 comments) says:

    stephie I didn’t post Missler, that was Wiki. So no, the truth doesn’t hurt, I was simply making the point. Der.

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  203. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    Hows the war against the Jews going Reid? I see some of your friends have done well in Hungary.

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  204. Nostalgia-NZ (5,195 comments) says:

    The Lonely Hearts Club is flat out this evening.

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  205. Reid (16,442 comments) says:

    Hows the war against the Jews going Reid? I see some of your friends have done well in Hungary.

    It’s interesting isn’t it Shawn that the Zionist neocons supported and indeed installed the new-Nazis in Kiev.

    Of course according to my worldview that simply makes perfect sense, but according to your’s it’s completely and utterly puzzling, isn’t it. Yet it happened. Didn’t it.

    Of course you’re one of the useful idiots who doesn’t think the US installed Kiev, aren’t you. Of course you are. You need to make up your own reality, lest the cognitive dissonance strike you right in the tummy don’t you. Sad really. One of these days your created ignorance is going to hurt you. I do hope you don’t have any US investments, for example. Lots of cognitive dissonance going on with you and the Dow, one imagines.

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  206. ShawnLH (5,008 comments) says:

    “Yet it happened. Didn’t it.”

    No. Your fantasy about “Zionist neo-cons” and the Ukraine is just another whackjob conspiracy theory.

    As to being a “useful idiot” that’s your speciality. Russia. Iran. Islamic-fascists, basically anyone who hates Jews and you jump mindlessly on board as their useful idiot.

    But your not a Jew hater, right? Cognitive dissonance indeed.

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  207. Reid (16,442 comments) says:

    But your not a Jew hater, right?

    No I’ve told you, I love Jews. But there is an evil sect amongst them who say they are Jews but are not and whom Jesus warned us about and which you are ignoring but that’s OK, I know you’re not evil, just stupid. They do things like this. Not to mention kill children and destroy lives.

    http://revisionistreview.blogspot.co.nz/2014/04/israeli-vandals-spray-paint-jesus-is.html

    And as far as Russia goes, this is good news isn’t it.

    http://batr.org/reactionary/040714.html

    Whereas all we Christians in the West seem to do these days is kowtow to the Jews who say they are Jews but are not because we’re so stupid we can’t see the difference between them and real Jews. Well, some of us are, aren’t we Shawn.

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  208. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Reid, so you decide that those Jews, who you do not love, are not Jews – so therefore you do not hate anyone who you are prepared to recognise as a Jew.

    And you cite the bible, as to contention between groups of Jews, as to whom better represents Judaism, as your background for doing this.

    Sounds like misuse of the bible to me.

    The bible also notes those of true and false Christ’s, yet you do not fixate your conspiracy theory around this terminology.

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  209. griffith (1,111 comments) says:

    http://www.nature.com/nclimate/index.html#latest-research
    Nature Climate Change | Perspective
    A lower bound to the social cost of CO2 emissions
    J. C. J. M. van den Bergh
    & W. J. W. Botzen
    Nature Climate Change
    Published online
    26 March 2014
    Abstract
    Many studies have estimated the social cost of carbon (SCC). We critically evaluate SCC estimates, focusing on omitted cost categories, discounting, uncertainties about damage costs and risk aversion. This allows for the calculation of a lower bound to the SCC. Dominant SCC values turn out to be gross underestimates, notably, but not only, for a low discount rate. The validity of this lower bound is supported by a precautionary approach to reflect risk aversion against extreme climate change. The results justify a more stringent climate policy than is suggested by most influential past studies.

    A meta-analysis of crop yield under climate change and adaptation
    A. J. Challinor, J. Watson, D. B. Lobell, S. M. Howden, D. R. Smith & N. Chhetri
    Nature Climate Change
    Published online
    16 March 2014
    Feeding a growing global population in a changing climate presents a significant challenge to society1, 2. The projected yields of crops under a range of agricultural and climatic scenarios are needed to assess food security prospects. Previous meta-analyses3 have summarized climate change impacts and adaptive potential as a function of temperature, but have not examined uncertainty, the timing of impacts, or the quantitative effectiveness of adaptation. Here we develop a new data set of more than 1,700 published simulations to evaluate yield impacts of climate change and adaptation. Without adaptation, losses in aggregate production are expected for wheat, rice and maize in both temperate and tropical regions by 2 °C of local warming. Crop-level adaptations increase simulated yields by an average of 7–15%, with adaptations more effective for wheat and rice than maize. Yield losses are greater in magnitude for the second half of the century than for the first. Consensus on yield decreases in the second half of the century is stronger in tropical than temperate regions, yet even moderate warming may reduce temperate crop yields in many locations. Although less is known about interannual variability than mean yields, the available data indicate that increases in yield variability are likely.

    Sustained mass loss of the northeast Greenland ice sheet triggered by regional warmng
    Shfaqat A. Khan, Kurt H. Kjær, Michael Bevis, Jonathan L. Bamber, John Wahr, Kristian K. Kjeldsen, Anders A. Bjørk, Niels J. Korsgaard, Leigh A. Stearns, Michiel R. van den Broeke, Lin Liu, Nicolaj K. Larsen & Ioana S. Muresan
    Nature Climate Change
    Published online
    16 March 2014
    Abstract
    The Greenland ice sheet has been one of the largest contributors to global sea-level rise over the past 20 years, accounting for 0.5 mm yr−1 of a total of 3.2 mm yr−1. A significant portion of this contribution is associated with the speed-up of an increased number of glaciers in southeast and northwest Greenland. Here, we show that the northeast Greenland ice stream, which extends more than 600 km into the interior of the ice sheet, is now undergoing sustained dynamic thinning, linked to regional warming, after more than a quarter of a century of stability. This sector of the Greenland ice sheet is of particular interest, because the drainage basin area covers 16% of the ice sheet (twice that of Jakobshavn Isbræ) and numerical model predictions suggest no significant mass loss for this sector, leading to an under-estimation of future global sea-level rise. The geometry of the bedrock and monotonic trend in glacier speed-up and mass loss suggests that dynamic drawdown of ice in this region will continue in the near future.

    The rate of sea-level rise
    Anny Cazenave, Habib-Boubacar Dieng, Benoit Meyssignac, Karina von Schuckmann, Bertrand Decharme & Etienne Berthier
    Published online
    Nature Climate Change
    23 March 2014
    Present-day sea-level rise is a major indicator of climate change1. Since the early 1990s, sea level rose at a mean rate of ~3.1 mm yr−1 (refs 2, 3). However, over the last decade a slowdown of this rate, of about 30%, has been recorded4, 5, 6, 7, 8. It coincides with a plateau in Earth’s mean surface temperature evolution, known as the recent pause in warming1, 9, 10, 11, 12. Here we present an analysis based on sea-level data from the altimetry record of the past ~20 years that separates interannual natural variability in sea level from the longer-term change probably related to anthropogenic global warming. The most prominent signature in the global mean sea level interannual variability is caused by El Niño–Southern Oscillation, through its impact on the global water cycle13, 14, 15, 16. We find that when correcting for interannual variability, the past decade’s slowdown of the global mean sea level disappears, leading to a similar rate of sea-level rise (of 3.3 ± 0.4 mm yr−1) during the first and second decade of the altimetry era. Our results confirm the need for quantifying and further removing from the climate records the short-term natural climate variability if one wants to extract the global warming signal10.

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  210. lilman (958 comments) says:

    Parihaka my arse, if you go there you will see NZ at its most reflective.
    The 3 houses wont talk to each other,each so paranoid that the other will get more than them, they do little for their collective position.
    Poor form, for all they will get is scorn for a victim mentality that is so ingrained that they talk shit 24/7 about this great Aroha for the country ,but secretly hate each other guts.

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