Pagani says Parker did not get nine things wrong

May 4th, 2014 at 11:00 am by David Farrar

Josie Pagani responds to ’s statement that made nine mistakes in just one interview. It’s a war of competing statistics as Pagani does a better job of defending Parker than Labour has managed!

 

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24 Responses to “Pagani says Parker did not get nine things wrong”

  1. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Josie Pagani is correct in pointing towards the balance of payments. NZ hasn’t been paying its way in the world for nearly half a century.

    For some reason the linking to Pagani’s column as provided by DPF isn’t working, and I couldn’t correct it, but found my way there by just going to Pundit.

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  2. Bill (94 comments) says:

    I’m glad you recognise J Pagani as being separate from Labour. She is as welcome at the Labour table as Shane Jones or Michael Bassett.

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  3. Pete George (23,570 comments) says:

    Pagani is making incorrect claims on this – and she didn’t use any statistics, she claimed there wasn’t any.

    “Taxpayers who buy and sell houses for income are currently taxed at their personal income tax rate on their capital income.” (Steven Joyce)

    He doesn’t know this because for compliance cost reasons, taxpayers are not asked to isolate the source of their taxable profits on their income tax returns. Sales of property are indistinguishable from sales of other goods or services. So the government has no way of identifying how much has been raised from this “already existent” CGT, yet it claims that property speculators are already paying tax on capital gains.

    That’s false.

    Tax raised from Property Speculation and volume of cases nationally by tax year:

    Year Ending 30 June 2011 386 Cases and $33,817,271
    Year Ending 30 June 2012 232 Cases and $23,069,492
    Year Ending 30 June 2013 (to 31 December 2012) 115 cases and $12,025,889
    Cases closed at 30 June 2013 – 450 cases

    http://tvnz.co.nz/business-news/property-speculators-targeted-ird-5550971

    And more is being done.

    It’s impossible to know how much potential tax revenue is going into a black hole, but it is certainly substantial. A clue can be found in this year’s budget, which provided an extra $6.65m to chase property investment tax compliance. The expectation is it will return about $45m a year.

    Inland Revenue’s general reckoning is that the department will return in revenue five times the extra amount invested to investigate big-ticket areas such as property, the hidden economy and claimed losses.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11118263

    Pagani is wrong, and Cunliffe again made a false implication on this on Q&A this morning.

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  4. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Re Pete George at 11.31:

    Pete, I don’t know of any small landlords who pay tax on capital gains on their property.

    Property speculation, as in large and medium property development, as in subdivisions, etc, are likely to make up the mere 450 cases in 2013. There are far, far more cases of this of small and even medium size landlords making untaxed capital gains.

    The position is similar with shares. You are supposed to pay tax on capital gains if you bought shares with the intention of selling them. Whoever admitted that. The only time people fess up to trading shares for capital gain is when the market is falling and they believe (correctly or incorrectly) they can offset this against tax. An accountant might be able to tell us whether this is so, or whether they can only offset it against future capital gains on shares.

    IMHO, a capital gains tax could be a good thing, provided the over all tax take wasn’t raised. Similarly, so could the ultimate capital gains tax, a death duty, provided that family businesses were given plenty of time to pay – and by that I mean a two or three years or more.

    We are a small country, with very light Government overhead (no federalism, no second Parliamentary house, no president tier), and change is comparatively easy. We ought to be experimenting with different types and levels of tax to make the economic ship go faster.

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  5. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    Bill: I’m glad you recognise J Pagani as being separate from Labour.

    Separate? Hahahaaaaaaa… Since when?

    Josie Pagani is a failed Labour candidate who still bear the scratches, scars and dents of her rejection in Rangitikei. I suspect she only gets airtime / paper space these days because her views are in sync with the jaundiced, left wing NZ media.

    But thanks, Bill – for providing the laugh of the day. :lol:

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  6. Pete George (23,570 comments) says:

    “I don’t know of any small landlords who pay tax on capital gains on their property.”

    They won’t and aren’t required to unless they sell their properties, and then only if they bought the property with the intent of speculating or dealing. There’s grey areas and it can be diifficult to prove but the IRD are cross matching sales data and tightening up on it.

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  7. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    It’s a war of competing statistics…

    Well, yes, exactlly. If the economy was a matter of correct vs incorrect, economics would be a science and there wouldn’t be any point in having political parties. Joyce and Parker are both dealing in advertising, not truth. All their arguments about the economy are variations on Nutella’s slogan “Less fat than peanut butter and less sugar than most jams” – it’s true as far as it goes, but…

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  8. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    …only if they bought the property with the intent of speculating or dealing.

    Yes, Pete – how could anyone suggest that IRD trying to guess a taxpayer’s personal intent isn’t a good way of running a tax system? It’s a robust and well-founded approach and Parker is simply wrong to criticise it… or something. Seriously, you call this fact-checking?

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  9. Pete George (23,570 comments) says:

    I didn’t say it was robust or well-founded – that’s more of a political argument, and political arguments are what you seem to be confusing with facts.

    It could also be argued whether Labour’s proposed CGT is robust or well-founded. They could be right about one thing, it may improvement employment, it’s a policy with so many potential holes – of lawyers.

    But it’s a fact that capital gains through speculation is taxable now.

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  10. JC (957 comments) says:

    Whats hardcase is that in just a handful of posts here you can already see the inevitable failure of a CGT as people struggle with definitions, applicability and consequent avoidance.

    Even worse is there is limited evidence that it would work.. it hasn’t in Australia and elsewhere its been introduced to control house prices because its the wrong answer to a problem thats made by the same sort of people who gave Auckland insufficient land on which to build. I see Aucklanders are finally starting to understand the nature of the problem and the inability of the planners to respond and are moving out to the burbs and further afield.

    One other thing.. even assuming a CGT worked in some sort of half arsed way.. why on Earth would you want to give the Govt more money? In just 14 years those clods have managed to increase the costs of running Govt by over 100%… do you feel richer and better served as a result.. has the wait time of your hernia operation shortened by half, your kids schooling twice as good, crime halved and so on?

    No it hasn’t, all you’ve got is more bleeding hearts assuring us that inequality has exploded, more kids are being bashed and in poverty and on and on.. all more money does is double the complaints.

    JC

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  11. Fisiani (1,039 comments) says:

    Capital gains tax would apply to every business, every farm, every bach and every boat. It would apply to every Kiwisaver account. It WOULD applyto the family home when you leave it in your will to yourchildren. It wouldrequire a valuation report that wouldcost millions natiowide. It would promote investment in the family home and push up house prices and rent. You would have less money to pay this tax because you would be forced to pay more into Kiwisaver even if you do not have a mortgage. Children with kiwisaver accounts would have to pay more. Wages would drop as thus so would pensions and unemployment would rise. 138 days to prevent such a disaster.Party Vote National.

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  12. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    My God, Fisiani, you’re right. What an economy-savaging disaster capital gains tax has proven to be for… er, just about every other developed country…

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  13. OneTrack (3,107 comments) says:

    Elaycee – “Bill: I’m glad you recognise J Pagani as being separate from Labour.

    Separate? Hahahaaaaaaa… Since when?

    Since the Labour party chose Cunliffe as leader and at the same time, its new hard-left direction. And then began the process of excommunicating those that they deemed heretics – like Pagani (and Jones, etc.)

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  14. OneTrack (3,107 comments) says:

    Psycho – “What an economy-savaging disaster capital gains tax has proven to be for… er, just about every other developed country…”

    Which other developed countries do you think we should be more like? Australia? USA?

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  15. lolitasbrother (698 comments) says:

    bla bla Capital Gains . Psycho we know the rules, its IRD taxable if you claim expenses and register IRD.
    If you don’t its not .
    I claim repairs and maintenance, rates and all expenses on this home here in Christchurch, so any gain is taxable.
    Once the rot hits I will run journal ledgers for home owners, taking into account their labour and they can offset.
    Suck that Labour

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  16. lolitasbrother (698 comments) says:

    Fisiani says: May 4th, 2014 at 2:06 pm
    quote
    Capital gains tax would apply to every business, every farm, every bach and every boat. It would apply to every Kiwisaver account. It WOULD applyto the family home when you leave it in your will to yourchildren. It wouldrequire a valuation report that wouldcost millions natiowide. It would promote investment in the family home and push up house prices and rent. You would have less money to pay this tax because you would be forced to pay more into Kiwisaver even if you do not have a mortgage. Children with kiwisaver accounts would have to pay more. Wages would drop as thus so would pensions and unemployment would rise. 138 days to prevent such a disaster.Party Vote National.
    uquote

    I suppose Fisiani you have read the socialist Korea madman Gareth Morgan tax regime. I think 6% Tax on everything except himself who has it all overseas.

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  17. slijmbal (1,236 comments) says:

    Pagani cherry picked her stats as much as Joyce did. It’s all down to time periods.

    On CGT obviously lots of misunderstanding in this thread.

    The frequency of purchases and sales is used by the IRD to determine whether one is investing for income or capital gain. If I buy and sell several houses in the period of years then I would be seen as investing for income and taxed accordingly. The same is true for shares.

    All builders pay tax and if I happen to have a business relationship with a builder that is not very arms length in any dealings in property then ALL dealings I do in property will be taxed for CG.

    Investment funds generally pay tax on gains and thus us the investors also pay this tax as much of general savings that is not cash/bonds/FI goes via one or other fund.

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  18. Matthew Hooton (131 comments) says:

    Steven Joyce often says people have got “nine things wrong”. It is one of his little slogans. See his attack on me: http://m.nbr.co.nz/article/joyce-blocks-answers-corporate-welfare-—-joyce-responds-ck-155626#bmb=1

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  19. deadrightkev (469 comments) says:

    Yes but you are in the crusher camp Matthew.

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  20. itstricky (1,832 comments) says:

    Yes but you are in the crusher camp Matthew.

    Is this the point where we drag out the ‘National is full of factions, they’re splintered, disparate’ etc?

    No?

    Oh well, he’s backing a flogged horse, that’s about to retire:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11249346

    Time to jump ship Matthew!

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  21. itstricky (1,832 comments) says:

    Pagani cherry picked her stats as much as Joyce did. It’s all down to time periods.

    Meanwhile, the rest of the country is talking about Collins, Williamson and The Chiefs.

    DPF may have an obvious disclaimer statement but some times he acts in the interest of the party, not just as someone who has “beliefs aligned with the centre right”

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  22. dog_eat_dog (781 comments) says:

    Furthermore, the IRD knows exactly how much it COULD gain from a Capital Gains Tax, as you declare ‘Untaxed Realised Gains’ in an IR10. More misinformation from the left.

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  23. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    Meanwhile, the rest of the country is talking about Collins, Williamson and The Chiefs.

    You don’t get around much do you?

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  24. itstricky (1,832 comments) says:

    You’re obviously on planet Key as well. Noooooboooodddddyyyy is talking about the things above because this happened in the meantime:

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11249833

    And still silence prevails on KB.

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