General Debate 12 June 2014

June 12th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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226 Responses to “General Debate 12 June 2014”

  1. Harriet (5,200 comments) says:

    Morning all.

    How the West Was Won – R Stark.

    “…..The sad truth is, there are all sorts of revisionists out there, especially the historical revisionists. And their contempt for Western civilisation has led them to rewrite the history books, putting their own skewed secular left agenda on everything.

    For example, while noting the many great achievements of ancient Greece, he reminds us of its darker side. Consider this: the economies “of all the Greek city-states rested on extensive slavery. In many, including Athens, slaves probably outnumbered the free citizens.” He reminds us that no Greek philosopher had a problem with this, and it took the rise of Christianity a millennium later in medieval Europe to push for the abolition of slavery.

    Consider the old canard about the “Dark Ages”. It is common to believe this was a period of ignorance and superstition, to be rescued by the Enlightenment. This, says Stark, is “a complete fraud”. Instead, this was a period of remarkable progress, innovation and advancement.

    He goes on to detail the many changes and advances which took place during this period. “It was during the supposed Dark Ages that Europe took the great technological and intellectual leaps forward that put it ahead of the rest of the world.”

    The high culture of the Carolingian Renaissance from the late eight century and the incredible Gothic period can also be mentioned. The latter gave us Chartres Cathedral and the Van Eycks for example. Hardly a barbaric and dark age with all that occurring.

    Think also about the rise of modern science. “The truth is that science arose only because the doctrine of a rational creator of a rational universe made scientific inquiry possible. Similarly, the idea of progress was inherent in Jewish conceptions of history and was central to Christian thought from very early days.”

    And again, “Advances in both science and technology occurred not in spite of Christianity but because of it. Contrary to conventional wisdom, science did not suddenly flourish once Europe cast aside religious ‘superstitions’ during the so-called Enlightenment. Science arose in the West—and only in the West—precisely because the Judeo-Christian conception of God encouraged and even demanded this pursuit.”

    Christianity also put a check on the abuse of power and helped lay the ground work for new democracies. For example, “Christian theology also provided the moral basis for the establishment of responsive regimes. But political freedom did not emerge throughout Christendom. Rather, it appeared first in a number of Italian city-states.”

    In his chapter on the “pursuit of knowledge” he shows how the “fundamental key to the rise of Western civilization” was a commitment to knowledge, and the basis for this was the “Christian commitment to theology.” The much maligned Scholastics, for example, were “fine scholars who founded Europe’s great universities, formulated and taught the experimental method, and launched Western science.”[The Christian University; Oxford opened around 1250 – and their motto is about following Christ]

    Real theology, he reminds us, is a “sophisticated, highly rational discipline that has its roots in Judaism and in Greek philosophy but is fully developed only in Christianity.” He concludes this chapter with these words:

    Stark also demolishes the myth that Islamic culture was once far superior to that of Europe. The so-called scientific advancement came primarily at the hands of Jewish and Christian dhimmies, or slaves, in Muslim lands. And even the acclaimed Muslim architecture was an adoption from Persian and Byzantine origins.

    For example, Muslim or Arab “medicine was in fact Nestorian Christian medicine; even the leading Muslim and Arab physicians were trained at the enormous Nestorian medical center at Nisibus in Syria.” And it was Nestorian Christians who primarily collected, translated and oversaw the Greek manuscripts as they were translated into Arabic and Syriac.

    One last item: the much despised Industrial Revolution was really a remarkable, humane achievement. Says Stark, the “Industrial Revolution did not initiate child labor, it ended it. From earliest times most children had labored long and hard. But by gathering child laborers into factories, industrialization made them visible” leading to child labor law reforms….”

    http://billmuehlenberg.com/2014/06/06/a-review-of-how-the-west-won-by-rodney-stark/

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  2. Keeping Stock (9,373 comments) says:

    Nookin comments here regularly, and normally makes a whole lot of sense. But he has stepped it up, and makes his blogging debut this morning over at Keeping Stock…

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.co.nz/2014/06/a-guest-post-on-new-labour-policy.html

    Welcome aboard Nookin :D

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  3. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    Exclusive – Civilian Party and United Future announce campaign deal
    http://yournz.org/2014/06/12/civilian-party-and-united-future-announce-campaign-deal/

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  4. tvb (4,553 comments) says:

    The public comments of Mark Mitchell MP saying he will not enter into any deals were unhelpful. He could have made his views known privately. John Key will have noted those remarks and will be wondering if Mitchell is a team player. If he wants the freedom to sound off in public then he can stay on the back benches.

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  5. Harriet (5,200 comments) says:

    KS.

    The second para is fucken funny.

    Best line I’ve read so far in the campaign. :cool:

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  6. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    tvb, it’s easier for a list MP without an electorate seat to be sent to some offshore post – self sacrifice in East Coast Bays and its pay off.

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  7. kowtow (8,935 comments) says:

    Obummer and Camoron have helped destabilise Syria which in turn is destablising Lebanon and Iraq. Statesmen ? No . Idiots ? Most definitely.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2654861/Escape-Mosul-150-000-Iraqis-overnight-refugees-flee-terror-al-Qaeda-splinter-group-taken-countrys-second-biggest-city.html

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  8. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Keeping Stock, why is the Civilian Party not listed as one of the parties on the “what party are you going to vote for” list?

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  9. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    kowtow, it’s the Bush regime change in Iraq that failed. Any regime change that requires continued USA military presence is an unsuccessful one.

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  10. James Stephenson (2,266 comments) says:

    @SPC – I don’t think the Civilian Party is at the 500 member threshold and registered with the Electoral Commission as yet.

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  11. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    James, OK. With the expertise offered by United in managing membership lists this is now assured …

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  12. hj (7,152 comments) says:

    This is about alleviating world poverty through immigration but it could (arguably) apply to refugees (including climate change refugees)

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  13. Chuck Bird (4,891 comments) says:

    Did anyone see the youth worker on Seven Sharp last night who claim inequality as a factor in the murder? I wonder who pays his wages local or central government.

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  14. James Stephenson (2,266 comments) says:

    John Key will have noted those remarks and will be wondering if Mitchell is a team player. If he wants the freedom to sound off in public then he can stay on the back benches.

    Firstly, I doubt there are many holders of safe seats who would exchage electorate MP status, for a list placing and a few junior ministerial baubles from a PM in the second half of their leadership, and secondly how do you know he wasn’t told to play the “no deals here” card for pubic consumption?

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  15. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    The issue is now whether the Iraqi government forces can secure the perimeter of Baghdad. If not there will be a full retreat of Shia members of government and security forces back to their population centres to the south – with probably an emergency meeting in the UNSC (a call to provide a no fly zone to secure the Shia population to the south from I.S.I.S. force intrusion).

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  16. Chuck Bird (4,891 comments) says:

    I note in the sidebar poll of polls that the Maori party is meant have 3 seats. I wonder which seats they are and on what basis they are meant to go to the Maori Party.

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  17. James Stephenson (2,266 comments) says:

    @Chuck – the ones the currently hold. It’s the standard assumption of most poll analyses that electorate seats (such as ACT’s or Dunne-nothing’s) won’t change hands.

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  18. flipper (4,327 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird (4,505 comments) says:

    June 12th, 2014 at 8:36 am

    Did anyone see the youth worker on Seven Sharp last night who claim inequality as a factor in the murder? I wonder who pays his wages local or central government.
    ****

    Not often that I agree with Chucky… but last night that fool simply parroted the Spirit Level/Pikety/St John/Randerson/Cun*life canard.

    It seems clear that the little bastard responsible cut his victim’s caratoid [sic] artery – hence a quick death.

    So called inequality in the area would be limited to welfare bennies compared to lower rung paid workers. There is no Victoria Ave v Henderson inequality at play. But that does not suit the TVNZ/TV3 narrative.

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  19. Colville (2,318 comments) says:

    West Indies 54/5 in reply :-)

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  20. Keeping Stock (9,373 comments) says:

    Indeed Harriet; the Australian reference was a stroke of brilliance from Nookin. Here’s hoping he can find time to be part of the Keeping Stock team on a regular basis.

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  21. Keeping Stock (9,373 comments) says:

    @ SPC – because it hasn’t been in any of my other polls. If the “Other” option suddenly swells in this poll, we’ll know that Ben has mobilised his voting team :D

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  22. NK (1,259 comments) says:

    Did anyone see the youth worker on Seven Sharp last night who claim inequality as a factor in the murder? I wonder who pays his wages local or central government.

    No. But I heard National Party stalwart, Vanessa Neeson, this morning on Newstalk ZB blame the Super City.

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  23. ShawnLH (6,605 comments) says:

    Great first post Harriet. Stark is a serious scholar who cannot be dismissed, though I’m sure some here will try.

    ‘How The West Was Won’ does a very good job of shredding the secular/atheist lie that the West prior to secular modernism was a dark and ignorant time and progress began only with the advent of the so-called “Enlightenment.”

    This historically ignorant lie is trotted out repeatedly by the ill-educated and self-deluded atheist cultists who infest KB, proof that facts, real history, and rational thinking are not really part of their intellectual tool kit, such as it is.

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  24. hj (7,152 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird
    Did anyone see the youth worker on Seven Sharp last night who claim inequality as a factor in the murder? I wonder who pays his wages local or central government.
    …….
    I heard “wrap around services” on Radio NZ.

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  25. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    West Auckland has been a problem since the 1960’s.

    That this should happen in West Auckland, is nothing surprising, and it is not the city’s fault – unless of course we are going to hold the council responsible for moral and family welfare.

    When you have both parents earning an income, away from home, then children are going unsupervised. When unsupervised children get with other unsupervised children, and no one is there to watch them, then mischief is going to be made.

    Given that ‘mischief’ of today, has to replicate the images they are presented with in various forms of media – then people are going to get hurt or worse.

    It is a result of social conditions that have been forced to meet financial conditions.

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  26. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, 90% of the people were unable to read for over a thousand years. And much of the learning from the Greco-Roman past came west with the fall of the Byzantine empire to the east and or came via the ME.

    It was a regime whereby there were royal/warrior fiefdoms and the church was an oasis of literacy.

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  27. James Stephenson (2,266 comments) says:

    ‘How The West Was Won’ does a very good job of shredding the secular/atheist lie that the West prior to secular modernism was a dark and ignorant time and progress began only with the advent of the so-called “Enlightenment.”

    Strawman alert! The idea that the “Dark Ages” were actually dark is a very old and very unfashionable idea, like T-Rex walking upright with its tail draggingon the ground.

    If anything it’s the Christians who continued the Roman propoganda about Barbarians who were responsible for the popular perception of the middle ages, and like to gloss over the roots that our democracies have with pagans like the Saxons and Vikings.

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  28. Harriet (5,200 comments) says:

    Thanks shawn.

    The link where I got it is Aussie based and a very good resource. Only 1-2 new articals are posted each day and there is a very expansive archive[click on ‘culturewatch’ top left]. The comments and links from them are worth while too. All in all, an intellectual toolkit! Cheers.

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  29. hj (7,152 comments) says:

    The Church locked horns with Darwin and Copernicus and are at the forefront in fighting birth control in countries like the Philippines (and every other Christian country).
    http://www.amazon.com/review/R1MN37SCY5GST7/ref=cm_cd_pg_next?ie=UTF8&asin=1610170857&cdForum=FxSQHBLX149ZGE&cdPage=2&cdThread=Tx1EKC4CZMVDGIH&store=books#wasThisHelpful

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  30. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    James, it requires literacy to bring light about an era. The warrior fiefdoms use of “councils” to demonstrate consultation and consent did not require widespread literacy.

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  31. SGA (1,252 comments) says:

    Harriet at 8:00 am

    Morning all.One last item: the much despised Industrial Revolution was really a remarkable, humane achievement. Says Stark, the “Industrial Revolution did not initiate child labor, it ended it. From earliest times most children had labored long and hard. But by gathering child laborers into factories, industrialization made them visible” leading to child labor law reforms….”

    In much the same way that a non-fatal heart attack is a welcome wake-up call that one has a weight problem.

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  32. Chuck Bird (4,891 comments) says:

    @hj, Thanks I must let the Taxpayers Union know.

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  33. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Strawman alert! The idea that the “Dark Ages” were actually dark is a very old and very unfashionable idea, like T-Rex walking upright with its tail dragging on the ground.

    Yeah, pretty sure they call it the Middle Ages these days (which is a bit pejorative in its own way). The darkest thing about them is the relative lack of written records in Europe, compared to during the Roman Empire beforehand and the Modern Era afterwards.

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  34. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    English parents use to send their children to work for others in return for work/trade training and board.

    Now they send them to school to learn (via literacy and other base skills) how to learn.

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  35. kowtow (8,935 comments) says:

    Both Darwin and Copernicus (a monk)were Christian. Christian scientists advancing western thought. Yes they met opposition but many new ideas do. Establishment science was very much of the old school,wasn’t just the “Church” in opposition.

    But for the numerous bigots who infest this site it is always easier to scapegoat than to be genuinely inquisitive.

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  36. Harriet (5,200 comments) says:

    “…..In much the same way that a non-fatal heart attack is a welcome wake-up call that one has a weight problem….”

    Well if teenagers are better of without labour laws then advocate for that in NZ. Kids won’t stop lining up for jobs at Maccas if they don’t have them. Kids never change.

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  37. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    Re the killings in West Auckland…there was debate here yesterday about the kind of “families” these two monsters will have come from…All was revealed by the reports yesterday and this morning that the families were removed from Court because of their yelling encouragement to their offspring…this morning’s report had one yelling out “Be strong baby”…strong is not quite the same as “staunch” but I will wager dollars to donuts these horrors are gang kids…What hope could there possibly be that they would NOT turn out this way? It is simply that their destiny has been achieved quicker than it might have been.

    So what do we do about it? The one thing that is definitely NOT the answer is throwing more money at “families” like this…Roger Douglas once said to me “If more money was the answer we would have solved the problem 30 years ago”…in other words governments have been throwing money at these dysfunctional families for years…You can’t enforce morals teaching on parents, so that’s out…Compulsory sterilization? Never going to happen, and brings a whole pile of unsolvable moral dilemmas…Voluntary sterilization? I got in trouble for this when I was still in parliament but is that really such a bad or unworkable idea?

    The other old cliché is that you need a licence to own a dog, but not to have a child…and perhaps more importantly, you can be banned from owning a dog for X years if you have mistreated one…How can it be that you can be prevented from owning what we once called a “dumb animal” but you can go on pumping out children who have a very good chance of either being abused or turning into monsters like these two…or both?

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  38. Chuck Bird (4,891 comments) says:

    “I got in trouble for this when I was still in parliament but is that really such a bad or unworkable idea?”

    It is not such a bad idea but it was not a very good idea to raise it when you were an MP.

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  39. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Especially as an MP for the ACT party to propose state control/regulation of who can have and or raise up children.

    National has gone to the point of limiting time on the DPB to 12 months (without work test) when someone on it has a new child.

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  40. Harriet (5,200 comments) says:

    DG#

    “…..How can it be that you can be prevented from owning what we once called a “dumb animal” but you can go on pumping out children who have a very good chance of either being abused or turning into monsters like these two…or both?….”

    I’m sure national bought in legislation where a mum/couple will have their kids taken from them if they beat them *again*. And any newborn child after that.

    I read once [I think it was Luke Malpess at NZ initutive] who said that it was immoral for a government to return children to people who are ‘complex dysfunctionals’ those who will never make ‘reasonable’ parents; those who can look after both themselves and their children. Dysfunctionals can’t even look after themselves.

    Maybe the legislation followed on from that.

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  41. stephieboy (3,515 comments) says:

    Kowtow, idiots most definitely .? Talking to yourself.? Yesterday I posted with links the real reason behind the current wave of sectarian violence and conflict including in Iraq and the so called destabilization in Syria.
    At the heart of it is Shia and Sunni hatreds with deep and bitter historical differences.Notably is the enmity and hatred between Saudi Arabia Sunni and Iran Shia.This translates basically in Syria to Assad Shia and much of the opposition Sunni.,

    .http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-vicious-schism-between-sunni-and-shia-has-been-poisoning-islam-for-1400-years–and-its-getting-worse-9139525.html

    But do keep yourself ignorant and uninformed and I shudder to think what would happen if your equally ignorant and uninformed Tea Party and Sarah Pallin got their hands on the nuclear trigger or lUS Foreign policy.

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  42. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    Chuck: Actually I didn’t raise it! It was a guest poster on here (Jadis I think).. I merely said in a comment that it was an idea worthy of further discussion…ker-BOOM!! Cue shots of Auschwitz on the news that night..

    But you would be surprised how many messages of support I got…many of them prefaced with things like “I have never voted ACT and never will, but…” ” I am a childcare worker and I cant tell you my name but…”

    Best of all was a woman who practises in family law…we had had a falling out over something, but in response to the sterilization discussion she wrote: ” All is forgiven Garrett ! someone had to say it and it’s no big surprise that it was you…”

    Harriet: I think I am safe in saying there never was any such legislation…it’s certainly not in force now…But I agree completely …. it is immoral to return kids to dysfunctional parents who can’t even look after themselves, much less the kids….but we keep on doing it…while we ban abusers from owning a dog…

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  43. All_on_Red (1,742 comments) says:

    Controlling the money is the easiest answer. On the benefit? Then any more kids the money stops.
    Rehabilitation in the form of teaching parenting skills and on going monitoring should also be done for those who offend against their children.

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  44. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    Real theology, he reminds us, is a “sophisticated, highly rational discipline
    :lol:
    A whole branch of pseudoscience founded in the belief in a invisible all seeing all knowing creator is at best a total waste of time and at worst enslavement of society to irrational superstition and the wants of en elite class off snake oil salesmen.

    Building monstrous palaces ,monastery, churches and cathedrals while the populace as a whole groveled in sod huts might have left spectacular monuments but only to the greed, hypocrisy, corruption and waste of the church and its leaders.

    The church suppressed all that was not contained in the teachings it promulgated. Stiffing inquiry into the real world and systematically destroying any scrap of knowledge that did not agree with its leaders ideas of god and the bibles teachings.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experiment
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhazen

    Abū ʿAlī al-Ḥasan ibn al-Ḥasan ibn al-Haytham (Arabic: أبو علي، الحسن بن الحسن بن الهيثم‎), frequently referred to as Ibn al-Haytham (Arabic: ابن الهيثم, Latinized as Alhazen[Notes 1] or Alhacen; c. 965 – c. 1040), was an Arab[8] scientist, polymath, mathematician, astronomer and philosopher who made significant contributions to the principles of optics, astronomy, mathematics, meteorology,[9] visual perception and the scientific method.

    He has been described as the father of modern optics, ophthalmology,[10] experimental physics and scientific methodology[11][12][13] and the first theoretical physicist[14] In medieval Europe, he was nicknamed Ptolemaeus Secundus (“Ptolemy the Second”)[15] or simply called “The Physicist”.[16] He is also sometimes called al-Basri (Arabic: البصري) after Basra, his birthplace.[17]

    The “pursuit of knowledge” was subverted by a commitment to “Christian superstitious theological nonsense.”

    Nestorius medical center….
    They were heretics according to the roman catholic church not acceptable as Christian according to your own western christian doctrines !!

    The much despised Industrial Revolution

    Despised?
    not
    it enabled the surfs to escape from the estates of churches and Nobel men.

    Great Start to the day.

    A Load of pap from religonutters attempting to justify the crap you inflicted on civilization in the name of an imaginary god.

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  45. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    DG, a problem with your ‘licence to breed” idea is that to enforce it you need to have something like your “Compulsory sterilization” to prevent breeding until a licence is obtained. That’s pretty much impossible practically and morally.

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  46. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    The safest “prediction” about the offenders is that they were truants. Whether their parents were on a benefit or working is “speculation”.

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  47. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Both Darwin and Copernicus (a monk)were Christian. Christian scientists advancing western thought. Yes they met opposition but many new ideas do. Establishment science was very much of the old school,wasn’t just the “Church” in opposition.

    When all Europeans were Christian, all European thinkers were Christian.

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  48. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    There was an era when a place at university required being Christian. At first because the church funded and ran this education for the clergy, then as a wider condition of membership of the laity.

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  49. James Stephenson (2,266 comments) says:

    James, it requires literacy to bring light about an era. The warrior fiefdoms use of “councils” to demonstrate consultation and consent did not require widespread literacy

    Yes fine, but when Alfred the Great was starting the process of creating England, and imposing Christianity and literacy on his Kingdom, he was building onto a pre-Christian culture of folkmoots and Witans that are obvious precursors of our democratic institutions. Christianity was woven into Western Culture and is a strong thread in its success, but it shouldn’t take all the credit.

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  50. hj (7,152 comments) says:

    The Catholic Church is influential in social policy. For example suppose it was proposed that the state only supported the first 2 children. The RC Church, the left (and some others) would certainly oppose it. The principle is that you don’t punish children for the actions of their parents (although they are their parent’s genes) I suppose Gareth Morgan’s Great Kahuna would get around that issue but they would see through that also.

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  51. Redbaiter (10,396 comments) says:

    Once again we see “freedom loving” Progressives suggesting more draconian laws (licences to have children) as solutions to problems that can all be solved merely by returning to the civil society they have destroyed.

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  52. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    PG: Yes, I do recognise that any such idea is hugely problematic..but what do we DO? Continue to wring our hands over appalling tragedies like the Kahui twins, and at the other end of the spectrum this killing of a poor shopkeeper going about his business?

    We all know the cause…a generation or two where morality and values are subjective: “if it feels good do it”…where in many “households” there are no absolutes of right and wrong…this latest tragedy is a case in point: in our wildest dreams you and I could never bring ourselves to stab a shopkeeper in the neck… at 12 or 13 we were more worried if we were going to get in trouble for being late home…

    I accept the possible solutions I have outlined would also certainly never happen, and are fraught with numerous difficulties…so you tell me Pete…do you have better ideas??

    Russell: I was wondering when you were going to arrive…so how pray do we return to the “civil society “we all once enjoyed and which “they” have destroyed?? Of course that’s the goal…how would you achieve it? Specifics please, not phlegm flecked bullshit and bluster…

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  53. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    James, the early kings used the literacy of the church as a tool in the rule of kingdoms without advancing literacy in the wider society.

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  54. Nigel Kearney (1,095 comments) says:

    I have said this before. Under no circumstances should production of a child create any entitlement to other people’s money. That is absolute madness and the DPB is the most evil thing any NZ government has ever done. Almost any alternative is better even including really bad options such as state-run orphanages or forced adoption and it is highly unlikely those would be needed because people would change their behaviour.

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  55. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    PG: Yes, I do recognise that any such idea is hugely problematic..but what do we DO? Continue to wring our hands over appalling tragedies like the Kahui twins, and at the other end of the spectrum this killing of a poor shopkeeper going about his business?

    We can surely address the issue of generational poverty without just ending a family’s generations.

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  56. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    DG, managing proliferation of children while on the DPB has been done, managing the safety of children when violence arises in the home is also in play, there is focus on the problem of truancy and educational outcomes (the ECE development). What other ways can government do anything?

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  57. James Stephenson (2,266 comments) says:

    it enabled the surfs to escape from the estates of churches and Nobel men.

    Sort of, but it was really the Black Death that started the process because people to work the land became a resource that landowners needed to compete for and meant that serfs could become tenant farmers. Those are the beginnings of capitalism, right there, and it was the democratic threads of Northern European cultures that gave more equal legal protections that allowed it to flourish.

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  58. Changeiscoming (202 comments) says:

    Chuck I saw that on TV. I turned it over to tv3 once I heard that guy say Inequality was the cause. Total plonker and wasn’t worth listening too after that.

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  59. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    Ryan: As Roger Douglas said “We have been throwing money at the problem for years…if money was the solution we would have solved the problem years ago”.

    I suspect you are old enough to remember the hue and cry that ensued when Jim Bolger said that state house tenants – in those does that usually meant a quarter acre section – could have vege gardens as was the norm once…Strident cries of “beneficiary bashing” and how outrageous it was to “force” state house tenants to have a garden…

    I was brought up in a state house…I am not sure that everyone had a big garden “out the back” but most did…Our next door neighbour, Mr Tuhaka, grew kumaras on his front lawn…on weekends we used to watch him splitting and salting the eels he had caught in his own hinaki, and hanging them on the clothesline to dry…

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  60. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Nigel Kearney, the DPB was introduced for the support of women without partners – widows and the divorced. It came to include unwed mothers. The forced confiscation of the children of unwed mothers and their placement into orphanages for adoption placement is not part of civil society – you must have missed the debate on GD in recent days about what can go wrong in these places.

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  61. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Windies 134 for 9 (38.2 overs).

    Craig 4 wickets, Sodhi 3, Southee 2.

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  62. SGA (1,252 comments) says:

    Nigel Kearney at 10:04 am

    Almost any alternative is better even including really bad options such as state-run orphanages or forced adoption and it is highly unlikely those would be needed because people would change their behaviour.

    Yet history (even more recent history) suggests otherwise, doesn’t it?

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  63. sbk (313 comments) says:

    Griff…took a few liberties with what you penned…

    “The “pursuit of knowledge” was subverted by a commitment to (a) “Scientifically unsound hypothesis”

    “A Load of crap from conservonutters attempting to justify the crap you inflicted on civilization in the name of an imaginary good”

    sound like any one you know…mirror…for a modern day comparison.

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  64. dirty harry (525 comments) says:

    Pants down Brown the serial rooter…yesterday he was asked by some breathless repeater what the problem is out west with all the lawlessness , lol , Brown said ” yes Henderson has slipped through the cracks a bit and they need more lovin”

    Oh the humanity ! Lovin Len style…coming your way Henderson !

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  65. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    SPC: “it came to include unwed mothers”…What a huge amount of meaning tied up in those few words!! I am not suggesting for a moment that all the problems with out of control kids arise from unwed mums being paid to have them…But there certainly is a correlation between exponential increases in the crime rate and exponential increases in the number of women on the DPB (Yes, yes, I am well aware that correlation is not equal to causation)…

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  66. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Ryan: As Roger Douglas said “We have been throwing money at the problem for years…if money was the solution we would have solved the problem years ago”.

    Therefore there’s something ineffective about the way the money has thus far been applied to the problem. (Not to detract from the successes of the efforts of public servants, etc., where they have made headway.)

    I don’t think we’ve exhausted all possibilities short of sterilisation.

    And what is the purpose of this sterilisation – to protect society from violent deaths?

    I suspect you are old enough to remember the hue and cry that ensued when Jim Bolger said that state house tenants – in those does that usually meant a quarter acre section – could have vege gardens as was the norm once…Strident cries of “beneficiary bashing” and how outrageous it was to “force” state house tenants to have a garden…

    I was brought up in a state house…I am not sure that everyone had a big garden “out the back” but most did…Our next door neighbour, Mr Tuhaka, grew kumaras on his front lawn…on weekends we used to watch him splitting and salting the eels he had caught in his own hinaki, and hanging them on the clothesline to dry…

    I’m a big fan of vege gardens, myself. Although – who did the gardening in your experience?

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  67. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    A writer from Forbes gives 12 reasons why New Zealand’s economy is about to tank.

    How New Zealand’s Economic Bubble Will Pop

    New Zealand’s economic bubble will likely pop as a result of rising interest rates across the yield curve, which would put pressure on the country’s property and credit bubbles. New Zealand’s key interest rate is expected to continue rising after its March hike due to rising domestic inflationary pressures, while longer-term bond yields are likely to rise as a side-effect of the Fed’s taper and eventual Fed Funds rate increase. The popping of Australia and China’s bubbles are two other external factors that have a high probability of contributing to the popping of New Zealand’s bubble.

    Here is what to expect when New Zealand’s economic bubble truly pops:

    The property bubble will pop
    Banks will experience losses on their mortgage portfolios
    The country’s credit boom will turn into a bust
    Over-leveraged consumers will default on their debts
    Stock and bond prices will fall; the New Zealand dollar may weaken
    Economic growth will go into reverse
    Unemployment will rise

    […]

    12 Reasons Why New Zealand’s Economic Bubble Will End In Disaster

    1) Interest rates have been at all-time lows for almost a half-decade

    Ultra-low interest rate environments are notorious for fueling credit and housing bubbles, which is how the U.S. housing and credit bubble inflated last decade. New Zealand’s interest rates have been at record lows for nearly five years, which is more than enough time for economic bubbles and related imbalances to form.

    Here is the chart of New Zealand’s benchmark interest rate:

    Source: TradingEconomics.com

    New Zealand’s three-month interbank rate, base lending rate, and 10 year government bond yield are also at or near all-time lows. Like many countries that are experiencing bubbles in recent years, New Zealand’s low interest rates are a byproduct of global “hot money” flows from the United States and Japan, which have both had zero interest rates and quantitative easing programs to boost their economies after the Global Financial Crisis.

    Low interest rates in the U.S. and Japan encouraged capital to flow into higher yielding investments in countries such as New Zealand, which led to reduced bond yields and an 85 percent increase in the value of the New Zealand dollar against the U.S. dollar since 2009. To combat the export-harming currency appreciation and bolster the economy during the financial crisis, New Zealand’s central bank reduced its short-term interest rates to all-time lows.

    2) Property prices have doubled since 2004

    Following the pattern of many nations outside of the hard-hit U.S., peripheral Europe, and Japan, New Zealand’s housing prices have doubled in the past decade, forming a property bubble:

    MORE – http://www.forbes.com/sites/jessecolombo/2014/04/17/12-reasons-why-new-zealands-economic-bubble-will-end-in-disaster/

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  68. wikiriwhis business (4,191 comments) says:

    Huge US establishment figure gone.

    .Eric Cantor Is Done… Upset By Dave Brat “Brat Pack” .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCDYAVwum5A

    Comment: With Cantor departure, Republicans have no Jews in Congress

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  69. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    DG – all we can do is continue as much as possible to improve parenting skills, family planning and contraception education, crime prevention and law enforcement.

    And we can all do as much as possible to set good examples with our own behaviour, in family, social and professional lives including social media.

    But we have to accept that shit will sometimes happen. It’s an unfortunate fact of life.

    Media and politician hand wringing on selected high profile cases is unlikely to achieve much if anything.

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  70. wikiriwhis business (4,191 comments) says:

    .DEBT COLLAPSE: Obama Signs Executive Order on Student Loans .

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  71. alloytoo (582 comments) says:

    “…..The sad truth is, there are all sorts of revisionists out there, especially the historical revisionists. And their contempt for Western civilisation has led them to rewrite the history books, putting their own skewed secular left agenda on everything.”

    Oh the irony….it pains. So to does the notion that Christianity could claim any sort of moral high ground over the extant Roman Empire in regards slavery.

    As others have noted above history is a the amalgamation of a multitude of elements, wars, plagues, technology and yes also religion have all had an influence on our modern world.

    Adherents claiming great men of history for their “side”, be it Christianity, or Islam or atheism is a waste of time.

    We should celebrant the greatness of individuals for their own account, acknowledging that religion and social constraints may have helped or hindered them.

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  72. dirty harry (525 comments) says:

    No its not all we can do PG. For far to long we have been limp on violent crime. Lock them up for life..LIFE! Die in prison.

    Do the crime, do the time and the time for murder is LIFE.

    Cue handwringers..4..3..2…

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  73. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    Ryan: In my experience, Dads did the gardening…either after work during the week, or on weekends…As for how the money is used, modern technology makes it extremely easy to make benefit money only available for food, utilities bills and clothing…but people like Sue Bradford scream down any such suggestion as interfering with their “human rights”…

    PG: sorry mate…nothing in that bland post that offers any solutions…I can set the best example I am able – and I try to – in my home to my children…It wont make a blind bit of difference at the macro level…my son frequently comes home with some story about how this kid or that hit someone for no reason, or stole something or deliberately damaged some playground equipment…and that is out here, at a decile 4 school, with a very active PTA (or whatever it’s called now) and really supportive parents…I am pretty confident that my Charlie would be the same lovely boy at some shit school in West Auckland…but I don’t delude myself that he would change any other kids’ behaviour by his example…

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  74. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    DG, as to the why of it all – with the end of one income providing for a family, the alternative resort to the teen keeping the child and it being raised by her mother as another child of the family has gone.

    So it was either the continuation of forced adoption/orphanages or what has happened.

    In the cases of teenage misadventure, in our post “shame” era, most have raised their children well and have been a credit to the DPB system. But as it was not their goal they went into work or education as was possible

    Unfortunately those with a poor education and lack of employment opportunity have used it as a pay package means to leave home. An end rather than a phase.

    And it was not just intergenerational welfare of the female lines, it was the male children without successful role models and thus the related crime.

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  75. alloytoo (582 comments) says:

    @Fletch

    Anybody who paid any attention to the GFC before and after could easily debunk Columbo.

    Hickey does a passable job.

    http://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/69557/bernard-hickey-gives-6-reasons-why-jesse-columbos-warning-forbes-about-new-zealands-ho

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  76. lolitasbrother (774 comments) says:

    about Christchurch and Labour,
    ‘Well yes he came here and he up up a slogan, yes he said
    we will lift up your lowered turf on those on flood grounds and houses and remediate you,
    and the Mat McCarten idiot clapped.
    Let me be frank brothers.
    You can not lift up a house and its basement for less than one million dollar of your money
    We need to make Flockton the swamp it is, and i can arrange the pumps
    The flood territory is here forever brothers , pay out now their lives ,
    do this socially people, its $350,00 per family
    when and if the time comes Auckland and Wellingtgon, well then you will see the people of New Zealand.

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  77. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Ryan: In my experience, Dads did the gardening…either after work during the week, or on weekends…As for how the money is used, modern technology makes it extremely easy to make benefit money only available for food, utilities bills and clothing…but people like Sue Bradford scream down any such suggestion as interfering with their “human rights”…

    I meant that there are more ways to use money than to provide it as a benefit, however that benefit is structured or controlled.

    If we know that the benefit, whatever other virtues it has, is not alone an effective means of ending intergenerational poverty (and the violent crime that seems to grow in that fertile soil), then we need to look at other means if we’re serious about ending intergenerational poverty.

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  78. James Stephenson (2,266 comments) says:

    I am pretty confident that my Charlie would be the same lovely boy at some shit school in West Auckland…but I don’t delude myself that he would change any other kids’ behaviour by his example…

    Well yes, but it’s like vaccination isn’t it? Enough kids like Charlie and the malignant influences don’t spread so far or so fast.

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  79. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    dirty harry: Our judiciary is making some progress – albeit glacial – on that front. LWOP for murder has been available since 2010. The first time it was sought was in the case of R v. McLaughlin…McLaughlin was the POS who murdered the 13 year old daughter of a woman he had had a relationship with…it later transpired that he had taken part in the killing of another youth in Australia twenty years before…The Crown sought LWOP…the Judges said he regarded McLaughlin as “..on the brink of meeting the test [for LWOP] but not quite crossing the line.” He then gave him a minimum NPP of 23 years – long, but surely not long enough?

    There was nothing – other than precedent – stopping that Judge giving the prick an NPP of 30 or even 40 years… they would of course have been reduced on appeal ( the highpoint remains Bell’s NPP of 30 years for 3 murders at the Panmure RSA) but only by pushing the boundaries will NPP’s creep up…And that requires Judges who are willing to be overturned on appeal…and they are rare…

    Ryan: There IS no “intergenerational poverty” in this country…it’s a myth…I will bet anything you like that the “parents” of those two in West Auckland: have Sky TV (and not the basic package); smoke; have high end cellphones; and are tattooed. You don’t have ANY of those things if you are living in “poverty”…

    James S: fair point…

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  80. Jinky (190 comments) says:

    How old were Parker & Hulme when they killed Mrs Parker? Young adolescents don’t have the capacity to think in a meaningful way about their actions. A robbery gone wrong and an impulsive stab at an adult shopkeeper who resisted their robbery attempt doesn’t mean we should be debating something like sterilizing unwed mothers!! This tragic event is an aberration and the hysteria around it needs to be dismissed as just that.

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  81. dirty harry (525 comments) says:

    I grew up in the 70’s. In hindsight, what a fantastic time it was. We, as kids, had it all. Unfortunately at the time we didn’t know how lucky we were. I suspect my parents would have said the same thing about the 40’s and the 50’s.

    It all seems to have turn to shit during early 90’s. Shame really. Damn shame.

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  82. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Shillingford the number 11 has hit 52 off 26 balls, left not out.

    All out for 216

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  83. mara (769 comments) says:

    Ryan, I am ancient enough to remember those days. men usually did the vegs and women did the “English country” garden.

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  84. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    dirty harry, the parents lost their jobs in the late 80’s – the teens had no jobs to go to in the early 90’s.

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  85. tom hunter (5,134 comments) says:

    Since the thread about The Tea Party Left is “old” and therefore dead I thought I’d post my comment on GD as well.

    As yet another example of the ignorance of this comparison between the NZ Far Left and the US Tea Party I present to you the following news story, What Cantor’s Defeat Means:

    After 24 years and 12 congressional terms, Majority Leader Eric Cantor’s dreams of being speaker of the House exploded Tuesday in a matter of hours in a stunning defeat by political novice Dave Brat.

    The day when Harre/Hone/Minto defeat someone like Trevor Mallard will be the day when this comparison works.

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  86. SGA (1,252 comments) says:

    David Garrett at 10:44 am

    …and that is out here, at a decile 4 school, with a very active PTA (or whatever it’s called now) and really supportive parents…

    I think you are right to emphasis this.

    I am pretty confident that my Charlie would be the same lovely boy at some shit school in West Auckland…

    Probably, but you might have to work a bit harder to keep him that way.

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  87. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    “Manawatu Standard” has started its pro-Labour assassination of aspiring MP, Jono Naylor. He is a popular and successful mayor, making him a good proposition to represent the city in Parliament, so the editorial buffoons at the communist rag are now heeding instructions from their labour masters to try and knock him over. He will bowl the effeminate rainbow Lees-Galloway for six and they don’t like it!

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  88. dirty harry (525 comments) says:

    Bankers ? Politicians ? Greed ? Progress ?

    Who to blame…

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  89. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    Jinky: You are as wrong as you could be…It is the Parker Hulme case which was the aberration – it was world news at the time, and the focus of voluminous study afterwards – not the killing in West Auckland. Ever hear of Bailey Junior Kuraraiki? The two teenage girls (14 or 15 from memory) who bashed a truck drive to death in Waitara in Taranaki and then gutted him, replacing his guts with stones, and trying to hide his body in the river?

    The cases of murder/manslaughter involving “children” under 17 are now many … your bullshit “Oh look at Parker – Hulme, it was just as bad in the 50’s” is the classic line of the so called criminologists in this country…their main preoccupation is finding excuses for crime, and trying to “prove” things have not got very much worse in the last 30 or 40 years…

    SPC; Crime began to increase exponentially in the mid 70’s, not the ’90’s …the “unemployment causes crime” theory is the most bullshit one of all…there is absolutely no correlation – let alone causation – between unemployment rates and crime generally, let alone violent crime…

    igm: Lees- Galloway may be many things, but a member of the “rainbow community” is not one of them…quite the contrary in fact…lets just say Iain interprets his marriage vows rather liberally…

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  90. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    DG, there is when unemployment is centred on an “ethnic” underclass.

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  91. publicwatchdog (3,118 comments) says:

    FYI Kiwibloggers :)

    (This has now been sent already to all MPs, mainstream media and widely circulated on social media and some blogs.
    Grace Haden is a fellow ‘anti-corruption whistleblower’ with whom I have worked closely over the last 10 years.

    Grace will stand in Epsom on a clear anti-corruption platform, as I shall do in Helensville against Prime Minister John Key. – Penny Bright)
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    PRESS RELEASE: Epsom Independent candidate ‘anti-corruption whistle-blower’ Grace Haden

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    “I have decided to stand as an ‘Independent’ candidate in my home electorate of Epsom. I am seeking accountability from government and to achieve this I will be campaigning for an Independent Commission Against Corruption and the Ratification of the United Nations Convention Against Corruption (UNCAC)”), says ‘anti-Corruption whistle-blower’ Grace Haden. (https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/treaties/CAC/

    “I believe that a by-election in Epsom is essential to keep the public spotlight on the corrupt practices surrounding the resignation of ACT MP John Banks, but also shine it on the reality of the widespread corruption which is becoming more and more evident in New Zealand.

    “The harsh reality is that New Zealand’s “least corrupt country in the world “tag line is not reality but a perception and as such ,the perception is a false illusion a façade . The perception index (http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/) is frequently misquoted and does not correlate with the fact that we are one of a small handful of countries which have not ratified the United Nations convention against corruption.

    “(https://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/treaties/CAC/signatories.html)

    “Despite New Zealand claiming to be “the least corrupt “ , I , a former long-serving Police officer, (and Police prosecutor), now a licensed Private Investigator, have found it impossible to get corruption investigated in New Zealand by any of the so called public watch dogs. I have discovered that we do not have corruption because we do not define it and turn a wilful blind eye to it, as occurred in the John Banks case. “

    “8 years ago, I questioned serious public corruption, provided facts and evidence to support my allegations, but so far, to no avail. I have discovered that Corruption does ruin lives – It tore my family apart.”

    “Enough is enough. No one else should have to go through what I have had to endure. Lessons need to be learned from the past and solutions found for the future. Cancer cannot be treated without a diagnosis and this is also true with corruption. Ignore corruption and like cancer it will consume us.

    “New Zealand desperately needs an Independent Commission Against Corruption, and I am pleased to report that I now have an MP who will present a petition which I initiated, seeking

    “That the House legislate to set up an independent Commission against Corruption, tasked with the prevention, education, detection and prosecution of corruption in New Zealand.”

    I have a well-established background in fighting and exposing corruption in New Zealand, these are documented on the following web siteshttp://www.civiljustice.co.nz/, http://www.transparency.net.nz/,http://www.anticorruption.co.nz/

    Grace Haden
    ……………
    ……………
    visit us at http://www.transparency.net.nz

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  92. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    Christ…now she can’t even remember what she has already posted…

    SPC: sorry, you are wrong. As the GFC took hold in 2009 there were dire predictions that rising unemployment in the US would reverse the sharp downward trend crime had taken since the early 90’s…Unemployment in fact reached 16% in California…SIXTEEN PERCENT….the crime rate remained unchanged, in fact it declined a little.

    We are a not dissimilar society to California: an “underclass” of uneducated or poorly educated Latinos and blacks rather than Maori..

    In 2008 – 2011 unemployment increase sharply right across the US…Crime didn’t.

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  93. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    DG, “Crime began to increase exponentially in the mid 70′s, not the ’90′s …the “unemployment causes crime” theory is the most bullshit one of all…there is absolutely no correlation – let alone causation – between unemployment rates and crime generally, let alone violent crime”

    the graph .

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/06/violent_crime-3.html

    Crime is centred in any disadvantaged (ethnic)underclass.

    We can agree that unemployment moving into the wider middle class society does not move crime much.

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  94. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    sbk
    hinting at something?
    let me guess you don’t like the fact that the modern scientific establishment is warning of coming problems due to humanity modifying the atmospheres heat retention properties with increasing amounts of co2 and methane gas
    Sorry mate but the only religion in my standpoint belongs to anti science nutwhacks who insist on denial of reality and the consequences of this action.
    Green house gasses are a fact
    The continued human caused energy imbalance caused by increasing green house gasses is also a fact.
    The laws of physics will not evaporate because you have a problem with the suggested answers to this problem no matter how hard you pray or deceive your self.

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  95. kowtow (8,935 comments) says:

    Come on Ryan S,Copernicus was more than just a European Christian he was a monk. And Darwin was a religious man.

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  96. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    This graph also shows crime peaking with unemployment.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_Zealand

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  97. Ross12 (1,484 comments) says:

    Labour and Cunliffe not doing their homework again , and pissing off a District Court Judge

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/06/david-cunliffe-upsets-chief-district-court-judge/

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  98. kowtow (8,935 comments) says:

    Crime and ethnicity.

    Yep ,not just to do with being an underclass though. There are many examples of “underclasses” who don’t get involved in crime.

    A lot of this has to do with the migration of Maoris from their traditional homes in the country to the cities and also for PI’s from the Islands to our cities.Late 60s.

    The loosening of traditional family and societal bonds , anonimity of cities etc then we had welfarism on top of that.Drug culture ,importation of a certain black American sub culture (which is deeply criminal and anti estasblishment)and identification therewith.

    It’s almost as if all those factors came together in a short space of time to produce the crime wave.Some people call it progress,some people call it multicultural and something to celebrate.

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  99. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    Great. A new “dating site” for married people who want to cheat on their partners.
    They claim that women look to cheat more with other women.

    http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/married-women-seek-other-affairs-6000671

    All this bullshit with same-sex marriage and sexual freedom is just turning society into one big sexual free-for-all. Frightening where it’s going to end.

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  100. wikiriwhis business (4,191 comments) says:

    Listen up world: the USA doesn’t even educate its young people!!! This is NOT a model for the rest of the world to follow. A food pantry for US students too broke and in debt to banksters to afford food, yet their tax dollars were used to bomb a country that provided free education to all its students up to the Ph.D. level, anywhere in the world, and supported the students’ families in whatever country the student was studying–Libya. Shame on Hillary Clinton who wants to be your next Commander in Chief.

    Cynthia McKinney – former congress woman.

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  101. wikiriwhis business (4,191 comments) says:

    “Since the thread about The Tea Party Left is “old” and therefore dead…”

    Eric Cantor Is Done… Upset By Dave Brat “Brat Pack” .

    The Tea Party is far from dead. Dave Brat is from the Tea Party and with a $300,000 budget outed the establishment figure with a $3 million budget.

    Third party representation is stong ang stronger.

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  102. edhunter (554 comments) says:

    Sterilization is such a dirty word. What I’ve advocated for a while is compulsory contraception. Unfortunately at the moment it’s only applicable to half the population, but here is how it would work:
    You have a baby, you go to WINZ they say fine but before you receive your first cheque, just pop down to the doctor & get an implant ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraceptive_implant).
    This lasts up to 3 years so before that time is up WINZ calls you up if your still on the benefit back to the doctor for another implant.
    This is not sterilization it’s contraception, mum can still happily open her legs for every Tom, Dick & Harry but you & I aren’t paying beyond the first child because there is only one child.
    Now in an ideal world once she was off the benefit & working I’d require her to still have the implant for the same length of time she was on the benefit i.e. on benefit for 3 years still have implant for first 3 years off the benefit. But that might be a bridge to far at this time.

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  103. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    DG: “…but I don’t delude myself that he would change any other kids’ behaviour by his example…”

    Learning off and following the behaviour of peers is very common. Peer pressure can be quite powerful, both negatively and positively.

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  104. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    Listen up world: the USA doesn’t even educate its young people!!!

    Check out the sign for a prom at a Chicago public school.

    http://www.progressivestoday.com/ouch-chicago-public-schools-prom-theme-this-is-are-story/

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  105. goldnkiwi (1,612 comments) says:

    SPC (5,190 comments) says:

    June 12th, 2014 at 9:53 am

    Wasn’t it around 7.00 am, how can you be truant? Delinquent yes. As for Judith and her while the parents work lol. Latch key children were around for a long time, if that ends up being the case, without feeling the need to kill anyone.

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  106. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    DG – I think my ‘bland’ suggestions have more chance of making some difference than your breeding licence and sterilisation suggestions.

    The reality is that all of society’s problems can’t be instantly fixed every time there’s an abhorrent crime.

    We have to keep doing as much as we can to incrementally improve positive efforts and minimise the shit as best we can.

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  107. SGA (1,252 comments) says:

    edhunter at 11:53 am

    What I’ve advocated for a while is compulsory contraception. You have a baby, you go to WINZ they say fine but before you receive your first cheque, just pop down to the doctor & get an implant. This lasts up to 3 years so before that time is up WINZ calls you up if your still on the benefit back to the doctor for another implant.

    Not sure that this would find much favour in RC circles, or would they be exempt on religious grounds?

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  108. sbk (313 comments) says:

    “hinting at something”…nah…plenty examples abound of “some” Scientists/academics calling for the imprisonment of deniers(and Scientists who dont subscribe),forceful re-education,etc…which to me,is very much like the RC church of old…shutting down dissenting views which contradicted their view of the universe…but obviously,you cant see the comparison.

    but just to remind …there has been a +30% increase in carbon emissions over the last several decades…yet for 18 years there has been no significant rise in global temp…a big fail.

    BTW..”conservonutters” in my previous comment,should read AGW/Climate change zealots…i am not against conservation…par se.

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  109. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    edhunter: Well said. As things stand, the workers at WINZ are strictly forbidden from even suggesting to a women with 6 kids and no father around that she might like to think about getting an implant.

    SGA: Then the RC beneficiaries can get their money from somewhere other than WINZ…

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  110. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Ryan: There IS no “intergenerational poverty” in this country…it’s a myth…I will bet anything you like that the “parents” of those two in West Auckland: have Sky TV (and not the basic package); smoke; have high end cellphones; and are tattooed. You don’t have ANY of those things if you are living in “poverty”…

    Poor people don’t smoke?

    How about “intergenerational welfare dependency” – would you prefer that?

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  111. edhunter (554 comments) says:

    SGA
    No exemptions full stop if you’re applying for a benefit you obey our rules.
    And anyway surely any good RC girl would be married before she opened her legs & started spitting out lil rc’s.

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  112. SGA (1,252 comments) says:

    David Garrett at 12:12 pm

    SGA: Then the RC beneficiaries can get their money from somewhere other than WINZ…

    True, or perhaps nuns could run special homes for such children :-)
    (sorry, couldn’t resist)

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  113. Kiwi Dave (97 comments) says:

    Kowtow @11.33: “Darwin was a religious man.”

    Initially yes, but in 1849 he stopped attending church. The later death of his favorite daughter and the obvious brutality and imperfections of the natural world undermined his religious faith. By 1879, he considered himself an agnostic and denied that there had ever been a revelation.

    Of course, none of this says anything at all about the role of religion in advancing or hindering science and democratic society.

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  114. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    How in hell do Rainbow Room Rectum Reamers (Labour) expect anyone to take notice of their financial spokesman Parker? He is waffling away again on another post, displaying the fiscal abilities of a retarded loser. His personal achievements should preclude him from politics per se, let alone commenting on topics where he is a proven failure. Check his business background . . . a joke!

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  115. kowtow (8,935 comments) says:

    KD

    Thanks for that.

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  116. mikenmild (12,325 comments) says:

    Still fascinated by bum sex, igm?

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  117. stephieboy (3,515 comments) says:

    The debt crises and the “bleeding ” obvious answers,

    “…..The moral of this story

    Deregulation in one part of the economy has had far reaching consequences, causing a global slowdown in the money markets and a knock on effect to consumers. It has treated us to the somewhat bizarre spectacle of a particularly right-wing Republican government nationalizing vast swathes of the American economy, to the point where the United States government now not only owns about half of the mortgaged properties in the US, but also is in the business of insuring against defaults on those very same properties — a potential “double-whammy” of monstrous proportions. At this juncture, the slinging about of phrases like “house of cards” might not be considered inappropriate.
    [edit]

    [We have] an ideological fixation with free markets and lack of regulation…obviously, people missed the boat on a lot of the risks that a lot of financial instruments entailed.
    —Stephen J. Kobrin[24]
    Free market libertarianism didn’t work. Keynesian policies enacted since the Great Depression prevented what used to be a common occurrence in “free markets” – disastrous contractions which created extreme hardship – even though the market players and their political tools continue to try to break things, most notably via supply side economics and deregulation of financial institutions.[25]”
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Banking_crisis#Let.27s_make_it_bleeding_obvious….”

    To suggest that the cure all is abolishing the Fed and its regularity framework as e.g Ron Paul libertarians suggest is sheer lunacy.

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  118. Manolo (14,165 comments) says:

    Let the followers of the religion of peace kill each other forever and ever:
    http://news.yahoo.com/sunni-insurgents-close-iraqs-biggest-oil-refinery-111013537.html;_ylt=AwrBEiHQoJhTXWcAFWHQtDMD

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  119. Harriet (5,200 comments) says:

    “…….Crime is centred in any disadvantaged (ethnic)underclass.

    We can agree that unemployment moving into the wider middle class society does not move crime much….”

    Excess crime in one area is the result of the general attitude in one area – or ineffective policing.

    They are just rather stupid people. Just look at the decisions they make WITHIN the law in these areas – high interest shark loans, maccas, big screens ect – general crime is just another one. Killing is generaly not planned but the result of some other crime gone wrong i.e robbery or planned assualt….

    If the police go into a middleclass home over a domestic matter, they won’t be finding stolen goods or drugs. Or dealing with outsatanding warrants. Or making arrests for crimes of verball abuse and violence after they’ve been told to fuck off several times then shoved or slapped. And that’s the same for middle class ethnic families – they don’t do that either! Some people are just stupid. Race, employment, income ect has nothing to do with crime. It’s about good parenting which leads to effective schooling which leads to a decent society. It’s called progress.

    Crime is an accepted culture in places where the police, law, schools ect are thought of as pigs ect. People who live like that have no pride or shame. However some in those areas have lots of pride.

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  120. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Oh well, if you lot can blame the solo mothers, let’s start on the father’s as well.

    I wonder where the fathers of these children are? It appears to me that it is up to the man to teach his male child how to control the violent streak that is innate within us. If we must look at solo mothers and their inability to control their children, then surely it makes it also sense to look at the fathers – or rather the absence of them.

    I grew up in West Auckland. Screeds of kids lived in the new suburbs, all the same age group. We roamed the streets, and yes, there was petty crime and one street versing the other is bullrush (gasp) and other semi violent games. We hurt a few, and were hurt in return, by not seriously (apart from the occasional broken arm or leg). Either way we used up all our energy and by time it was bedtime, we were stuffed.

    If the play ever got too rough, there was always someones Mum hanging out a window telling us to pull our heads in and threatening to tell our parents. And then there was the local cop – a Mr Pringle, who roamed the streets putting the fear of god into us, and keeping us on the semi-straight and narrow.

    Would those young boys have been robbing diaries if they had grown up in the same environment – Where every kid had someone at home and where the police were visually present. I wonder if those two young boys have ever fallen into bed at night so physically and mentally tired from play that they didn’t have time to think about robbing a shop (this does not include taking empty bottles from the back of the diary and reselling it to the shop-keeper – that was a sport :-) )

    I bet these two lads have never felt that, never had anyone teach them the boundaries of violence, and never had anyone that was there for them after-school, or even checked if they were at school.

    Yes, the parents and family turned up in court – as they should do, and yes, they should support their children, when no one else will – but support doesn’t necessarily mean acceptance of what they have done – but that maybe FINALLY they have worked out they have a responsibility to their children (one they’ve sadly refrained from providing before).

    I’m sure those young boys never set out to kill – only rob – but did anyone ever tell them that if you carry a knife or a gun, chances are when the stress is on, you’re going to use it, or have it used on you? Isn’t that what a Dad should of done?

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  121. Manolo (14,165 comments) says:

    Stephie, dedicated feminist, will enjoy the article: http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2014-06-11.html

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  122. stephieboy (3,515 comments) says:

    Manolo, you agree that at the heart of the current crises in Iraq are the bitter divisions between the Shia and Sunni factions with the religion of peace.?

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/14132#.U5j5kCjd1Wg

    China will be very concerned as the Iraqi government granted them the majority of oil concessions.

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  123. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    If the police go into a middleclass home over a domestic matter

    The police seldom get called to domestic matters in the middle class – not because they don’t happen, but it is suggested because the middle class have more to lose by involving the police (especially reputation). Middle-class women who suffer from domestic and sexual abuse are less likely to involve police if the perpetrator is a member of their family, than lower incomes. The higher up the income level you go, the less likely police assistance is requested in those circumstances.

    Keeping up appearances and all that! Damn door handles are always at eye level in middle + class houses.

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  124. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    Judith: “..what a Dad should OF done…”?? Don’t you claim to have tertiary education??

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  125. stephieboy (3,515 comments) says:

    Manolo, rabid righter and tea bagger will obviously adore his irrational couzies tearing apart their favored GOP

    Inside the Tea Party Brain: Can Science Explain Their Seemingly Irrational Rage?

    http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/inside-tea-party-brain-can-science-explain-their-seemingly-irrational-rage
    ,

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  126. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ David Garrett (5,738 comments) says:
    June 12th, 2014 at 12:57 pm

    So you think having a tertiary education means one never makes a mistake? At least my qualifications aren’t in English or Communications – so mistakes I make aren’t in my chosen subject.

    But….

    Don’t you have a tertiary qualification in Law?

    ;-)

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  127. goldnkiwi (1,612 comments) says:

    Judith (6,518 comments) says:

    June 12th, 2014 at 12:46 pm

    Is there some reason why a solo parent male or female, claiming a benefit, isn’t at home for their children before and after school, just like the mothers of yore?

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  128. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    Judith: Yes I do have a law degree..and one in Pol Sci and History…so what’s your degree in…sociology?

    I’ll bite…neither me or those currently with me have the slightest idea what you mean by “door handles are always at eye level in middle class houses”…

    Do enlighten us…

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  129. kowtow (8,935 comments) says:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10892606/Trojan-Horse-debate-We-were-wrong-all-cultures-are-not-equal.html

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  130. Nigel Kearney (1,095 comments) says:

    Judith, I blame both the fathers and the mothers.

    But people respond to financial incentives. The mother cannot let the father spend too much time with the kid or she risks a $500pw pay cut. If he has a job. it’s better to keep his name off the birth certificate and he pays the mother $100pw cash than let IRD find out and take $200pw off him with little or no change to the mother’s income.

    You cannot stop some people behaving irresponsibly. But you can avoid a system where there are huge cash bonuses for it.

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  131. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ David Garrett (5,740 comments) says:
    June 12th, 2014 at 1:06 pm

    Well done.
    Hopefully in the next very short while you can call me Doctor – but don’t ask me to check your blood pressure.

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  132. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    Oops…embarrassing error…”Neither I nor those currently with me…”

    You are “earning” a doctorate in what Judith? Or is that a state secret?

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  133. goldnkiwi (1,612 comments) says:

    DG. If I can answer re the door handles, I shall hazard a guess that an excuse regarding black eyes/bruises in middle class households are attributed to falling on or walking in to a door handle.

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  134. stephieboy (3,515 comments) says:

    Rodney MP Mark Mitchell dismisses a “coat tail “deal from the arrogant and presumptuous Con party,

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10145408/Rodney-MP-dismisses-deal-with-Conservatives

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  135. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Nigel Kearney (778 comments) says:
    June 12th, 2014 at 1:10 pm

    Oh I blame both parents too. Often the father is not allowed contact because the mother forbids it, and so on. Or as you point out, the financial benefits prevent best practice in parenting.

    Somewhere we have gone wrong – our policies seem to encourage more tax collections which we end up paying out on systems to repair the damage caused by both parents working full-time.

    Personally I think many social ills could be solved by encouraging three generations to live together, like in the 19th century. With grandparents sharing the home, the younger generation can be cared for while the parents work. Less houses would be required, and less retirement homes and so on. But I accept most people are too selfish to take their parents in, and elderly see it as a weakness to have to live with family in current society.

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  136. SGA (1,252 comments) says:

    Judith at 1:19 pm

    Less houses would be required, and less retirement homes and so on.

    Fewer, not less (meant playfully).

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  137. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    Golden: thank you…yes, that should have been obvious to me…so much for 6 years of tertiary education!

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  138. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ SGA (661 comments) says:
    June 12th, 2014 at 1:23 pm

    As you can tell, I don’t study English – still with so many happy to point out my mistakes, I don’t need a spelling or grammar checker on my PC :P

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  139. goldnkiwi (1,612 comments) says:

    Is there a statistic somewhere/anywhere that plots parenting practices and/or crimes committed by the off spring of working parents and the children of beneficiaries. I imagine that the children of working parents appreciate the work ethic and understand the sacrifices being made by their parents, while the beneficiary children likely to have a sense of entitlement.

    This however is not a given. I have had times on the DPB all my 3 children are currently gainfully employed, one as a truck driver, one in engineering and one as a chef. Only one has spent any time on a benefit and that for a brief period, he is 24.

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  140. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    but just to remind …there has been a +30% increase in carbon emissions over the last several decades…yet for 18 years there has been no significant rise in global temp…a big fail.

    Pratts from wuwt and else where in the denial echochamber are for wingnuts who are following sheepies at best.

    The surface temperature measuring series GISSTEMP, NOAA, hadcrutt4, BEST all give a rise over the last eighteen years

    the last decade was warming than the one before.
    the warmest years on record are 2010 and 2006.

    You taking the satellite temperature series and misusing what is at best a crude approximation of the surface temperature.

    http://www.remss.com/measurements/upper-air-temperature

    TLT (Temperature Lower Troposphere)

    TLT is constructed by calculating a weighted difference between MSU2 (or AMSU 5) measurements from near limb views and measurements from the same channels taken closer to nadir, as can be seen in Figure 1 for the case of MSU. This has the effect of extrapolating the MSU2 (or AMSU5) measurements lower in the troposphere, and removing most of the stratospheric influence. Because of the differences involves measurements made at different locations, and because of the large absolute values of the weights used, additional noise is added by this process, increasing the uncertainty in the final results. For more details see Mears et al., 2009b.

    Using the el Nino of 1998 as your cherry picked starting point only proves that the el nino effects global temperatures not it has stopped warming.
    We now are seeing warmer monthly temperatures without the el Ninos distorting effect.
    http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/2014/04
    The latest released

    The globally-averaged temperature across land and ocean surfaces tied with 2010 as the highest on record for the month, at 0.77°C (1.39°F) higher than the 20th century average. This also ties with April 2010 as the seventh highest departure from average among all months in the period of record, which dates back to January 1880. The record highest departure is 0.86°C (1.55°F) above average, set in February 1998, a month when El Niño conditions had been present for nearly a year. Neither El Niño nor La Niña have been present in the east central equatorial Pacific Ocean for the past two years; however, according to NOAA’s Climate Prediction Center, the chance of El Niño emerging increases for the remainder of 2014, exceeding 65 percent during the Northern Hemisphere summer 2014.

    have a look at the stratospheric cooing RSS series also shows.
    http://images.remss.com/data/msu/graphics/C13/plots/RSS_TS_channel_C13_Global_Land_And_Sea_v03_3.png
    This shows less energy from the sun escaping back into space.
    Where is all the energy going god sucking it up? or all the bullshit promulgated by the source of your myths and pratts is soaking it up?.

    :lol:
    I Don’t think that sheepies who prattle on with the misdirections of the wingnut sites and their global conspirowhackys will get done or locked up.
    They will be judged by the following generations.

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  141. kowtow (8,935 comments) says:

    Nigel kearney

    Bad enough these people don’t marry these days,so there’s no loving or formal relationship for children to grow up in,like their entitled to.Then they get away with not naming the father on the birth certificate.There should be some severe penalties (like no benefits) there………but oh no ‘uman rights, wimmin’s rights …..everyones fricken rights except the taxpayer who has to carry the whole messed up thing.

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  142. Don the Kiwi (1,808 comments) says:

    Beware evryone.

    Griff’s having an AGW meltdown.

    Anyway Griff, you’re wrong ;-)

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  143. goldnkiwi (1,612 comments) says:

    FWIIW I was married to the two fathers of my children, neither financially or emotionally supported their children at all and my daughter became a chef as I was never home (or too tired) to cook because of work or study or both.

    It does not have to be the train wreck portrayed in the msm.

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  144. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    Judith: Why so coy on what your coming doctorate will be in? Do you think I might scour the Uni websites to try and track you down?

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  145. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    goldn: Well done you…as a separated man who has a great deal to do with his kids (they are coming to mine tonight as it happens) I cannot understand men like your two husbands…From observing my childrens’ mother – who has them for the majority of the time – and talking to the kids, I have a fair understanding of the magnitude of the task..

    You should be very proud of yourself…

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  146. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    :lol:
    don hows the ice on lake Loise ?
    That post of yours was typical gullible rubbish posted without any critical thought or bothering to check facts.
    It being frozen is not an unusual occurrence for the first week of june when you posted .

    The “it has not warmed for 18 years” meme is the equivalent of climbing on top of the back bedroom wardrobe and straining to see a glimpse of water in real estate speaks sea views. RSS is the most inaccurate measurement we have for constructing a temperature series of the surface. its actually far more accurate at higher observations in the stratosphere and there it collaborates the global warming theory by showing the drop in temperatures as the stratosphere radiates less heat into space.

    Hows the body of Christ really taste after its magic transmogrification .
    like dry wafer I bet.

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  147. stephieboy (3,515 comments) says:

    Harriet posted earlier in the day segments from a Rodney Stark’s How the West was one which purports to show that it was Christianity that actually fostered and nurtured the growth of scientific Inquiry and its revolution. Nothing could be further from the truth. For example he tries to suggest that it was mediaeval Christian scholars who ensured the continuation of scientific thinking and progress. The Universities present were a Christian invention. This is disputed and all the Mediaeval Church did was to control them to ensure they conformed with Church dogma and teaching.

    The Mediaeval Church was in fact a Theocracy that was more concerned in promoting and protecting doctrines and dogmas like Purgatory, Celibacy, Indulgences and Mariana . No disputing these was permitted ,especially in the Universities ,that it controlled and the curriculum they taught ..

    I get the impression that Rodney Stark is producing a history to satisfy the tastes and tailored for contemporary Protestant and other christian Fundamentalists and creationists ,

    http://scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts/2008/09/06/rodney-starks-idiotic-history/

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  148. All_on_Red (1,742 comments) says:

    Hey Griff
    What’s the margin of error on the Land Based Stephenson Screen Temp Measurement thermometers?
    What does ” Homogenisation” mean with regard to the data sets adjusted by all your heroes?
    Face it, the land based measurement are just not accurate. The only ones which come close are the new ones fitted by NOAA and NCDC and they’ve only been going 10 years. And guess what, from all 114 stations in the US, the temp shows COOLING.
    http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/crn/

    Oh and Stratospheric temps are controlled by the sun

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  149. All_on_Red (1,742 comments) says:

    Gosh, Griff must be having trouble searching through His favourite Skank Science web site for rebuttal. It’s been 25 minutes and no bite!
    Still, on 90 demerits I guess that trip to the naughty step is not far away. Bwahahahahaha

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  150. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    The earths temperatures are sourced from the sun all in red that you have difficulty in this concept is strikingly obvious.
    The suns radiation being retained by green house gasses is why we live in a planet with a habitual temperature range
    Without the sun and the greenhouse effect we would be the same temperature as outer space a few fractions above absolute K.
    with the sun and without the greenhouse effect of the atmosphere we would be at around -18C to cold for complex life to survive
    The fact the stratosphere is cooling is a direct result of the changes we are making as the energy is being retained closer to the surface.
    How about posting the links to your mal information when you cut and paste stuff you find on wuwt and other wing nut sites in future it saves me thinking you actually have some knowledge rather than just rabbiting rubbish from whacko sources.

    the last ten years
    Climate or weather? you decide what we are disusing because ten years is way to nosy with weather to make a climate trend apparent

    You are trying to go against the long established physics of the greenhouse effect all in red showing your ignorance of the subject.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan–Boltzmann_law

    The Earth has an albedo of 0.3, meaning that 30% of the solar radiation that hits the planet gets scattered back into space without absorption. The effect of albedo on temperature can be approximated by assuming that the energy absorbed is multiplied by 0.7, but that the planet still radiates as a black body (the latter by definition of effective temperature, which is what we are calculating). This approximation reduces the temperature by a factor of 0.71/4, giving 255 K (−18 °C).[4][5]

    However, long-wave radiation from the surface of the earth is partially absorbed and re-radiated back down by greenhouse gases, namely water vapor, carbon dioxide and methane.] Since the emissivity with greenhouse effect (weighted more in the longer wavelengths where the Earth radiates) is reduced more than the absorptivity (weighted more in the shorter wavelengths of the Sun’s radiation) is reduced, the equilibrium temperature is higher than the simple black-body calculation estimates. As a result, the Earth’s actual average surface temperature is about 288 K (15 °C), which is higher than the 255 K effective temperature, and even higher than the 279 K temperature that a black body would have.

    Simple well established physics discovered in the 1880s and you are trying to deny it with voodoo science from the echo chamber :lol: wingnut your ignorance is showing..

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  151. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    Does anyone else find AGW as utterly boring as watching paint dry?

    Griff old boy…there is absolutely NOTHING…NADA, ZILCH we can do about it down here! I am sure (well, perhaps I shouldn’t be) that you know that if WE stopped all our greenhouse gas emissions tomorrow – including animals’ emissions – it wouldn’t make a blind bit of difference.

    Want something to worry about? Anti-biotic resistant bacteria is a very real threat to life on earth…As a father of young kids I am terrified that before long my beautiful son could die because a cut becomes infected, and anti-biotics no longer work… And unlike AGW we CAN do something about that, viz. more careful use of anti-biotics when they are prescribed for us…and not pestering the doctor for some pills for a virus.

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  152. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    Does anyone else find AGW as utterly boring as watching paint dry?

    I do. But then, I find religious debates really interesting, and others find those boring.

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  153. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Re: R Stark:

    Real theology, he reminds us, is a “sophisticated, highly rational discipline that has its roots in Judaism and in Greek philosophy but is fully developed only in Christianity.”

    … so “fully developed” that it promoted the idea that a just and powerful deity would come up with a plan that involved an innocent man being tortured to death so that people could avoid the consequences of their actions.

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  154. All_on_Red (1,742 comments) says:

    Griff
    Ha, took you awhile to find something to cut and paste. No one disputes how Greenhouse gases work so save your deflecting bullshit.
    How about answering the question about margin of error, and homogenisation . You won’t, because then your figures fall apart. Dumb arse.
    What don’t you understand about a link to The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association in America. It’s a government scientific institution you moron. Not “rabbiting rubbish from whacko sources.” Shows how little you know when you don’t recognize it.http://www.climate.gov/about
    So how about explaining to us all the theory of how Greenhouse gases , specifically Water Vapour and CO2 will create DANGEROUS warming of 4-6 degrees K like you constantly claim. Use words like Radiative Forcing and Positive Feedback.
    And then how about showing us in the world exactly where that warming is happening – ever.
    You can’t.
    As I keep saying the world has warmed only .7 degrees k in the last 100 years and if CO 2 doubles we may see another .6 because I think ( as do many others) that Transient Climate Sensitivity is 1.3 degrees K.
    Face it, the facts and the Planet are proving that dangerous warming is not happening and the only warming is modest.

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  155. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    Ryan: No, I can see that…we are all going to die, and we none of us really know what – if anything – happens later…That alone makes religion remotely interesting…And there is so much to know about religion(s)..

    AGW? We are all going rapidly to an overheated hell in a handcart, and with China building a new coal fired power station every work its only getting worse …blah blah blah…

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  156. All_on_Red (1,742 comments) says:

    David
    AGW is real, but C as in catastrophic AGW is not. If you don’t fight to prove the distinction we are going to end up with Carbon Taxes and other ways to wreck industry, cause higher energy prices and fuel poverty.
    It will lead to lower standards of living and higher unemployment.
    Surely that’s worth fighting against?
    Your old leader Rodney gets it and does fight.

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  157. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    All in unable toread why bother when every time I debunk one thing you ignore totally being wrong and bring up another piece of grud you cleaned from the echochamber of wingnut blog sites.
    You accuse me of cutnpaste and failing to understand when you can not even understand the basics of the theory you are trying to deny.
    note the blockquotes and attribution normally found in my posts all else is almost always griffs own words. unlike you I know most of this stuff by hart and are able to understand what I read.

    As to you.
    entire posts are lifted from some wingnut pseudoscience site hence you claiming the other week the we read tide gauges from funken space.
    Sheepies take uncritically any information that confers their bias with out checking or understanding the rubbish they are feed
    you are a particularly good sheepie.
    Space reading of tidal gauges :lol: WUWT takes A study on tide gauge records and misrepresented it as the latest satellite record cutnpasted by all in red. You then spend the rest of the day progressively admitting your first post was out and out rubbish then claimed you won Shows how pathetic the rubbish on WUWT and those who take the bumkin really are. And you believe it :lol: and go back for even more rubbish:lol:

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  158. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    we are all going to die, and we none of us really know what – if anything – happens later

    According to Christianity immortality is achievable. The fact that the don’t know for sure what happens after death doesn’t stop us from developing a reasonable theory. NDEs and the existence of ghosts are two sources of information…

    And there is so much to know about religion(s)..

    Religion is profoundly important in shaping behaviour and attitudes within society. Sure there is much to learn, but there is also much to be be gained from learning.

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  159. mikenmild (12,325 comments) says:

    Tell us a ghost story, Ugly.

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  160. All_on_Red (1,742 comments) says:

    Griff
    When I say “No one disputes how Greenhouse gases work “, what don’t you understand. You still don’t get it about the “extra link in the chain” not happening.Once again you prove it’s pointless having a discussion with you. And frankly your last post is a dribbling incoherent mess. Coming down off the dope are you?

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  161. David Garrett (7,698 comments) says:

    All on Red: Yes, rodders exercises himself about this stuff…Frankly as I have said I have more imminent threats to worry about…And with the greatest of respect to my former leader, he is fighting a losing battle…AGW and “Carbon is a poison” is now a religion among the young…

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  162. Longknives (4,952 comments) says:

    I’m with DG- AGW debates bore the shite out of me.
    And as a fence-sitting, dollar each way Agnostic I can’t really get into religion debates with any real passion..
    Can’t we talk music? Or sport? or what justice we would like to serve on those feral kids out Henderson way??

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  163. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    My friend Dave and I were just about to leave his flat to go out. Dave’s flat was haunted – the ghost made it’s presence felt in a various ways (at one stage Dave managed to convince the ghost to get a light to swing to entertain his daughter – but that’s not the story here). Anyway Dave was trying to find his mobile phone, and he wasn’t having any success. I said that he should use the house phone to call his mobile so that we could track it down that way. So he dials the mobile, and tells me that he can hear the ringing signal coming from the handset of the house phone, but we can’t hear the mobile itself ringing from inside his flat. At this point he hangs up the phone and walks into the kitchen (maybe 25 feet away or so) to find his phone which was behind the electric jug (if memory serves). The phone wasn’t broken, and Dave didn’t put it where he found it. I only ever spent one night at Dave’s flat, and I didn’t get a wink of sleep because the ghost would keep turning the cassette player on so that the motor was straining against the end of the tape.

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  164. cha (4,135 comments) says:

    Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein:

    .

    Too much of the GDP over the last generation has gone to too few of the people

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/matthewzeitlin/goldman-sachs-ceo-income-inequality-is-a-very-destabilizing

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  165. Ryan Sproull (7,360 comments) says:

    My friend Dave and I were just about to leave his flat to go out. Dave’s flat was haunted – the ghost made it’s presence felt in a various ways (at one stage Dave managed to convince the ghost to get a light to swing to entertain his daughter – but that’s not the story here). Anyway Dave was trying to find his mobile phone, and he wasn’t having any success. I said that he should use the house phone to call his mobile so that we could track it down that way. So he dials the mobile, and tells me that he can hear the ringing signal coming from the handset of the house phone, but we can’t hear the mobile itself ringing from inside his flat. At this point he hangs up the phone and walks into the kitchen (maybe 25 feet away or so) to find his phone which was behind the electric jug (if memory serves). The phone wasn’t broken, and Dave didn’t put it where he found it. I only ever spent one night at Dave’s flat, and I didn’t get a wink of sleep because the ghost would keep turning the cassette player on so that the motor was straining against the end of the tape.

    That’s terrifying. YOUR FRIEND DAVE DIED IN THE WINTER OF ’83!

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  166. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    C as in catastrophic .

    Well done all in red you add a c for catastrophic then deny it exists.

    An idiots straw man argument.

    There is no such thing as “catastrophic anthropological global warming” any where but in the echo chamber of agw denial and the shallow stagnant recesses of your tiny little mind..
    :lol:
    as too
    DANGEROUS warming of 4-6 degrees K like you constantly claim
    where all in red ?again in you pathetic little mind and nowhere else budy bullshit

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  167. Don the Kiwi (1,808 comments) says:

    Had much chance to work on the Fergies this last week or two Griff ?

    This bloody cold and wet climate-change induced weather is enough to really piss one off, is it not? ;-)

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  168. Longknives (4,952 comments) says:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=11272656

    PC ‘Nanny State’ nonsense- You know where you can shove that can of ‘Green Coke’?? (And I don’t even drink Coke…)

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  169. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    Not really don
    just had one running today
    brought the pretreatment, primer and epoxy enamel top coats yesterday and started painting today.
    Have done the first prepcoat on the replacement torsion bars, spindles and hubs for the poor stunted orchidised one.
    Also Had stunty running today.
    Needed it to Pull the scimitar gte out of the garage so I can work inside on rainy days
    That meant I had to move three tractors , two boats and a trailer to make room in the car park.

    have decided on the colors for the beach tractor.
    The new bonnet tin on its almost finished panel beating ready to get painted bright orange yellow.
    Gloss Black diff, gearbox and engine, orange extremity’s like wheels steering torsion bars and brake rods with metallic silver detail for the starter motor, alternator, dash,distributer, gear box cover and levers, seat spring, draft controls and foot plates.
    May even polish and lacquer the steering column for a little magnesium bling.

    Should stand out like dogg nuts among the grey and red fergies, blue fords and leylands and white Davis browns down the beach :lol:
    like this but a lot brighter and much more detail in the painting.,
    http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/uploads/cars/any/3636552.jpg

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  170. kowtow (8,935 comments) says:

    Cop tasers compliant guy for 13 seconds in what appears to be a piece of summary justice.

    I call that assault.

    He should be charged.

    I’m all for law and order but when the police break the law and then are shown not to enforce the law they (management) create a credibility problem with the public.

    Not a good look.

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  171. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    It was with total disgust when I viewed a Herald front page heading, highlighting the driver of a disastrous motor accident, in which two persons died, was Dutch. If he had been a Pacific Islander, Iraqi, Algerian, or any other of their pet ethnicities, there would have been no mention of nationality.

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  172. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    Did you see the item on One news tonight about the new school direction? Some kids studying under their desk, because it’s more comfortable, etc. I don’t know what the education system is coming to.

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  173. stigie (1,435 comments) says:

    Sounds all good Griff, is there a tractor competition at the beach or something ?

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  174. Colville (2,318 comments) says:

    I managed to smack the middle finger on my left hand with a hammer this arvo. Hard. I have a split nail with blood seeping out from under it.
    I can very clearly count my pulse in the end of my finger despite sending a codine pill down there to sort it out.
    Tomorro is going to suck!

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  175. OneTrack (3,348 comments) says:

    Still waiting for the hockey stick Griff.

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  176. Viking2 (11,668 comments) says:

    Colville don’t do anything naughty with that finger then.

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  177. Viking2 (11,668 comments) says:

    Ryan Sproull (6,960 comments) says:
    June 12th, 2014 at 3:41 pm

    Does anyone else find AGW as utterly boring as watching paint dry?

    I do. But then, I find religious debates really interesting, and others find those boring.
    ================
    They are both bloody boring.:x

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  178. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    Nope just feel like adding a little non conformity to the line up of factory looking tractors.
    She will have a boy race pod filter bling polished induction piping maybe even stainless fuel lines as well.
    Its a tea 20 for the batch the whole things supposed to be fun.

    The conservative restorers of fergies will have a fit when they see it. :lol:

    I am saving the classic restoration kick for stunty the 57 fe35 they look pretty cool in the original colors of grey and metallic gold.
    http://tractorspares.ie/images/FE35.jpg
    They are also worth around 50% extra in original paint due to the rarity value. They were only made in that color scheme for the first year of construction 1957/1958 whereas grey tea 20s and or red and grey fe35s are dime a dozen

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  179. Viking2 (11,668 comments) says:

    Back in 2011, a Whakatane police officer attempted to arrest a man who had fled from a traffic stop. When he resisted, he was pepper sprayed and beaten, after which the officer retrieved a taser from his vehicle and tasered him twice while he was lying on the ground.

    And he got a smack on the hand.
    http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2014/06/another-case-for-graham-mccready.html

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  180. OneTrack (3,348 comments) says:

    DG – “And with the greatest of respect to my former leader, he is fighting a losing battle…AGW and “Carbon is a poison” is now a religion among the young…”

    We will be waiting to see what these young zealots say when the Carbon Taxes start cutting in and they suddenly have to pay for their religion.

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  181. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    But what really takes the cake is the police’s response to the report: basically a “fuck you”. They are “satisfied his actions were not the result of any ill will or malicious intent” and claim that they “initiated remedial action through the employment process some time ago” and as a result they can’t do anything more. That “remedial action”? Extra taser training. Break the law, bring the police into disrepute, and they protect you and teach you how to do it better.

    http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2014/06/another-case-for-graham-mccready.html

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  182. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    You’re not launching off Ladies Bay are you Griff? With that colour scheme you could get heaps of attention. :)

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  183. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    :lol:
    money is the root of the right wing attitude towards agw

    it will cost me money so its bullshit.

    The greed motivation is obvious and frankly disgusting.

    read dpf’s posts on carbon tax.

    Cost neutral buddy if any thing the young will benefit from the slight redistribution.

    The measures recently announced by Obama had absolutely no effect on the price of the coal industry’s shares on the usa stock markets proving that even the markets know how stupid your meme is

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  184. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    ….”The measures recently announced by Obama had absolutely no effect on the price of the coal industry’s shares on the usa stock markets proving that even the markets know how stupid your meme is”…..

    If the share prices remained stable then obviously the market doesn’t expect the carbon tax to make any difference to demand.

    What in the name of (insert deity here) is the point of the bloody tax if it doesn’t depress demand?

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  185. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    Just a little hard to get a tractor there nasska the only way down being a very narrow path with steps.
    Besides its gentilemens bay that I think you are fantasizing about witch is just around the corner and not the place for a confirmed hetro like griff to dally.

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  186. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    ….”not the place for a confirmed hetro like griff to dally.”…..

    Live dangerously! :)

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  187. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    nope nasska it will have an effect in making new coal plants economically pointless. Coal is actually expensive for electrical generation any way and gas is less of a co2 emitter which the share market and generating businesses have already factored in .

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  188. kowtow (8,935 comments) says:

    The excellent Max Hastings on Oxfam…..

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2655752/MAX-HASTINGS-Yes-Oxfam-does-great-things-But-does-taxpayers-cash-pump-socialist-propaganda.html

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  189. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    Griff, it’s not the money; it’s the waste of money. Do you really think that any action humans take is going to affect the climate of the planet? Really?

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  190. Don the Kiwi (1,808 comments) says:

    olville (1,909 comments) says:
    June 12th, 2014 at 6:33 pm
    I managed to smack the middle finger on my left hand with a hammer this arvo. Hard. I have a split nail with blood seeping out from under it.

    That’s rough Colville. You should be left handed mate – then your left hand wouldn’t have got hit. ;-)

    Many years ago -late ’70’s – early 80’s – when i was roofing putting on Decramstic tiles, every roof requires anything up to 2,000 nails, and this was before the advent of specialised nail guns. Every week or two i would whack my right thumb – I’m left handed – (oh, and a Left Footer too :-) ) It seemed that, while holding the next nail, that throbbing thumb would call out to the hammer to whack it again. Needless to say, words that I can’t remember now somehow came out of my mouth. ;-)

    Now, thirty plus years later, my right thumbnail still grows distorted, and I can’t let it grow long, otherwise it just splits without warning.

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  191. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    The lawyer says: “Good Morning Sir, I have some Good news
    and bad news”

    The CEO replies: “I’m having an awful day, let’s hear
    the good news first.”

    The lawyer says: “Your wife invested $20,000 in five
    pictures that are worth a minimum of $2 million!”

    The CEO replies enthusiastically: “Well done, very
    good news indeed !
    You’ve made my day; now what is the bad news?”

    The lawyer answers: “These pictures are of you in bed
    with your secretary.”

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  192. goldnkiwi (1,612 comments) says:

    Don the Kiwi (1,492 comments) says:

    June 12th, 2014 at 7:54 pm

    I have something similar where a donkey bit my fingernail off lol. The irony is that I bought the donkeys to make me feel better when I squashed the tip of an index finger off. Fortunately (very subjective) despite the fact that the two instances were about 6 weeks apart it was lucky that it was different hands. The one never seems to get any better. ;)

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  193. Viking2 (11,668 comments) says:

    Environmentalists confused as nature destroys trees

    Environmentalists across the North Island and the country are still reeling from yesterday’s widespread destruction of trees that was apparently caused by nature.

    Winds in Auckland reached 170km/h on Wednesday, as those with an abiding love for the natural world were shocked to see it turn upon itself, apparently violently murdering trees by ripping them from their roots and strangling them with power lines.

    28-year-old Matthew Reed, an Auckland University student who said he felt “guilty” speaking to media using a telephone, explained that he felt “conflicted” and “confused.”

    “As committed environmentalists, we tell each other that the natural world is the root of all healing, and that destruction of that world – which hurts us all – comes from man. So when you see nature do this kind of thing to itself… Man, it’s kind of hard to comprehend.

    “I woke up yesterday afternoon; my vision was a bit hazy. There was some people yelling outside, so I had a look out my window, and I was like ‘Oh shit, I’ve got the munchies.’ But I was also like ‘Woah, how could the wind do this to the trees? Why are they fighting, and why is there a bagel stuck to my head?’”

    But Reed said after much consideration, he had decided it was “inconceivable” that nature would be to blame for the destruction, and it was more likely “corporate media” had made it appear that way.

    21-year-old sociology student and beard Tom Yates offered an alternative explanation, suggesting that the trees destroyed by the wind may have been “bad” or “rogue trees.”

    Meanwhile, Green Party Coco Pops leader Russel Norman, short of suggesting a media conspiracy, rejected the assertion that the wind’s behaviour yesterday reflected upon nature, pointing out that the rise in extreme weather events has been repeatedly attributed to the phenomenon of global warming.

    “As I think we all know by now, global warming has been largely driven by human activity over the last hundred or so years,” said Norman. “So when you see our precious fauna being ripped apart by high winds, you know that that, too, is our fault.”

    http://www.thecivilian.co.nz/environmentalists-confused-as-nature-destroys-trees/

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  194. Viking2 (11,668 comments) says:

    His Lordship was in the study at Downton Abbey when the butler approached and coughed discreetly.

    “May I ask you a question my lord?”

    Inline image 1

    “Go ahead Carson ” said his lordship.

    “I am doing the crossword in The Times and I have found a word I am not too clear on.”

    “What word is that?” said his lordship.

    “Aplomb” , my lord.

    “Now that’s a difficult one to explain. I would say it is self assurance or complete composure.”

    “Thank you, my lord, but I’m still a little confused.”

    “Let me give you an example to make it clearer. Do you remember a few months ago the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge arrived to spend a weekend with us?”

    “I remember the occasion very well, my lord. It gave the staff and myself much pleasure to look after them.”

    “Also”, continued the Earl of Grantham, “do you remember Will plucked a rose for Kate in the rose garden?”

    “I was present on that occasion, my lord, ministering to their needs.”

    “While plucking the rose a thorn embedded itself in his thumb very deeply.”

    Carson replied, “I witnessed the incident, my lord, and saw the Duchess herself remove the thorn and bandage his thumb with her own dainty handkerchief.”

    “That evening the prick on his thumb was so sore, Kate had to cut up his venison from our own estate, even though it was extremely tender.”

    “Yes, my lord, I did see everything that transpired that evening.”

    “The next morning while you were pouring coffee for Her Ladyship, Kate enquired of Will with a loud voice, ‘Darling does your prick still throb?'”

    And you, Carson, did not spill one drop of coffee!

    Now that is aplomb!

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  195. goldnkiwi (1,612 comments) says:

    Amazing how often human kind is thought to be ‘unnatural’.

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  196. Viking2 (11,668 comments) says:

    It is impossible to lick your elbow.

    YOU KNOW YOU ARE LIVING IN 2014 when…
    1. You accidentally enter your PIN on the microwave.
    2. You haven’t played solitaire with real cards in years.
    3. You have a list of 15 phone numbers to reach your family of three.
    4. You e-mail the person who works at the desk next to you.
    5. Your reason for not staying in touch with friends and family is that
    they don’t have e-mail addresses.
    6. You pull up in your own driveway and use your cell phone to see if
    anyone is home to help you carry in the groceries…
    7. Every commercial on television has a web site at the bottom of the
    screen
    8. Leaving the house without your cell phone, which you didn’t even have
    the first 20 or 30 (or 60) years of your life, is now a cause for panic and you turn
    around to go and get it
    10. You get up in the morning and go on line before getting your coffee
    11. You start tilting your head sideways to smile. : )
    12 You’re reading this and nodding and laughing.
    13. Even worse, you know exactly to whom you are going to forward this
    message.
    14. You are too busy to notice there was no #9 on this list.
    15. You actually scrolled back up to check that there wasn’t a #9 on this
    list .

    ~~~~~~~~~~~AND FINALLY~~~~~ ~~~~~~~

    Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to
    be amused!” (Unknown Author) Go lick your elbow. You know you want to!


    Quote du Jour:
    “Insanity in individuals is something comparatively rare – but in
    groups, political parties, nations and epochs, it is the
    rule.” Friedrich Nietzsche

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  197. jcuknz (689 comments) says:

    I used to bang my hand when using short nails/tacks until I cottoned onto the idea of holding them with a pair of long nosed pliers … made a world of difference for my son too when he was doing the hammering of nails through corru iron sheeting for a hut we were building.

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  198. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    fletch it is the laws of physics that dictate the effects of increasing the greenhouse effect.
    I don’t think like your faith
    I know we have a very good theoretical understanding as well as precise measurement confirming the theory of the co2 induced greenhouse effect.
    I know that the early work was surprising accurate as to the effects we are measuring now.
    The melting ice sheets expanding oceans changing seasons changing behavior of the biosphere etc all confirm the temperature records story of rising temperatures.
    The evidence is irrefutable that we are heating the planet.
    All in red is saying the transient sensitivity is much lower than the IPCC gives as a range.
    even in is his model we reach dangerous levels of warming well before the end of this century at our present emission trajectory.
    Either we slowly change from now.
    or within a generation – the next twenty to thirty years we will need to change our emission profile radically.
    This is called the carbon budget and represents a trade off between how much impact from warming we can cope with and the total amount of co2 we can release
    As well all future planning needs to take in account the changes happening and the effects global warming is unleashing.
    where are we going to place the population of Bangladesh when it floods? how will we feed those whose lands become to dry or hot to live on.
    These things are already happening and are a threat to world peace.

    I am also aware of the more scary possible outcomes.
    paleontology gives us evidence for one
    Total collapse of ocean circulation has happened at lest twice before when the climate has warmed leading to mass extinctions of up to 90% of all species in the oceans and on land.

    Runaway feed back are theoretically possible for a verity of systems effecting climate. We do not know if or when such a thing may happen.
    The ice sheets and caps in antarctic Greenland or ice land could collapse far faster drowning citys like new york in a few decades. or, the methane clathrates may become unstable increasing methane at a far faster rate than ours with co2 doubling the impact of our emissions., the permafrost may collapse again releasing vast amounts of methane and co2.,

    The ipcc warns of the future. it is the best report of the knowledge on the subject we have.
    All Major scientific bodies agree about the effects and outlook for the future as expressed by the ipcc.
    This is the scientific standpoint not “my thinking” the evidence of science on the subject.

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  199. kowtow (8,935 comments) says:

    The excellent Ezra Levant on anti Christian bigotry from members of the BC law society.

    http://www.ezralevant.com/the-real-bigots/

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  200. Steve (North Shore) (4,536 comments) says:

    Colville@6.33
    “I managed to smack the middle finger on my left hand with a hammer this arvo. Hard. I have a split nail with blood seeping out from under it.
    I can very clearly count my pulse in the end of my finger despite sending a codine pill down there to sort it out.
    Tomorro is going to suck!”

    Drill it, don’t mine it. Serious , a 1mm drill bit twisted between the index and thumb – slowly.
    Or get a paper clip, open it to a wire, heat it red hot with a cig lighter, and burn through to release the pressure.
    Takes balls, but that’s what us engineers do. Feel sorry for you man coz I know it hurts like fuck – pain scale is like 10/10 and childbearing is like 2/10

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  201. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    The pain of childbirth is grossly exaggerated Steve. :)

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  202. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    The drill trick works and stops the ffn throbbing
    another method is a red hot needle.
    a canvas or sheep bale one is best.
    big so it seers its way in.
    I once accidentally ripped a big toe nail backwards .
    Its grows back only on two edges took the middle growing bit of the nail bed right out of my toe.

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  203. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    I once accidentally shot myself through the head with a 7mm back in 2008.

    When I recovered I had this overwhelming urge to come to KB and comment! :)

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  204. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    International Newswire: The England team visited an orphanage in Brazil today.

    “It’s heartbreaking to see their sad little faces with no hope” said Jose, age 6.

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  205. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Nice one PG! :)

    Have you considered standing as Conservative for Dunedin South/North/Anywhere? :)

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  206. goldnkiwi (1,612 comments) says:

    What happened to Dennis Horne, last time I read his name there was that plane crash. I have kept meaning to ask.

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  207. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    Perhaps Dennis’s real name was Paul James Bennett goldi! :)

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  208. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

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  209. ShawnLH (6,605 comments) says:

    10 Reasons Atheists Make Me Laugh :)

    1. Atheists are fighting against something they don’t believe exists. It’s like writing blogs against Caspar the Friendly Ghost or Bilbo Baggins. Why would you bother?

    2. Atheists spend more time writing on Christian blogs than they do on their own. Why fuel a nonexistent fire?

    3. Atheists love to act intellectual until you catch them doing something illogically and then they scream profanities cause that’s really intellectual.

    4. Atheists have the word theist in their name. Every time they say who they are they call attention to God.

    5. Atheists condemn all that’s wrong with Christianity and yet can not produce one work of art, literature or sacrificial deed done in the name of atheism. Even they realize it’s not worth dying for.

    6. Atheists only believe in what their senses tell them unless its Darwin telling them things that happened billions of years ago, then they have more faith than a Catholic at First Communion.

    7. Atheists believe in science unless the scientists believe in God, then they denounce the scientist and call him a moron.

    8. Atheists believe in their fellow man, unless their fellow man believes in God, then they denounce their fellow man and call him a moron.

    9. Atheists believe in the great free-thinkers of the past like Andrew Flew unless they change their mind and become theists then they denounce them and call them morons.

    10. Atheists don’t believe in morons unless they are atheists and then they embrace them and call them intellectuals.

    :) :) :)

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  210. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    I wouldn’t stand for the Conservatives, fundamental differences.

    About the only party I’d consider standing for is The Civilian Party but they haven’t registered yet and haven’t asked me yet, I’m good enough on ice creams but may not be up to scratch on satire.

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  211. goldnkiwi (1,612 comments) says:

    Or James James Morrison Morrison Witherby George Dupree?

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  212. nasska (12,088 comments) says:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/0nke8aa9wjt7t0p/Atheist%2021.jpg

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  213. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    I think you should approach Ben with a plan to move Wellington Airport even further south to Dunedin Pete.

    That should get you over the satire requirement! :)

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  214. Pete George (23,793 comments) says:

    0/10 for me on that Shawn.

    Here’s another view on the topic.

    1. Please stop hedging when you mention our lack of belief. Atheists are atheists. We’re not “self-described,” nor do we “claim” to be atheists. You don’t want us to start saying things like, “This is my friend, Julie. She calls herself a Christian,” do you? Then man up, brace yourself, and use the a-word all by itself. Practice in front of the mirror if you need to. You’ll know you have the proper calm, factual tone when the glass doesn’t shatter.

    2. Please stop capitalizing the word “atheist.” Unless it comes at the beginning of the sentence, you’re just wasting ink. We know you’re probably trying to be polite, but it doesn’t work that way. There is no guy named Athe.

    3. Some of you keep insisting that we’re angry at your god. And then you laugh at us for being so silly – being angry at someone we don’t even believe in. Well, you’re right. That would be pretty darned silly. That’s why we don’t do it. Are you annoyed at Zeus? Do you have a grudge against the faerie folk? Of course not. It’s the same for us – how could we feel anger or hatred toward a non-existent being? (Some of his followers cheese us off, but that’s another story.)

    4. Stop saying that deep down inside, we really do believe in your deity. Belief in the kind of guy who can create an entire universe with the force of a few well-turned phrases is not the sort of secret that fits neatly into a back pocket, as it were. If we thought this fellow was real, we’d be the first to know. And people don’t tend to keep that particular nugget of information to themselves. Ever notice that?

    5. Please understand that “You’re such a nice person! I can’t believe you’re an atheist!” is not a compliment. More importantly, please understand that we understand that. Believe me, every single one of us has considered replying, “And you’re so smart – I can’t believe you’re a Christian!” How about we all agree to not go there?

    6. The only thing all occupants of foxholes have in common is access to weapons and a willingness to fight. It might be the better part of wisdom not to provoke them by insisting that you know more about their beliefs or lack thereof than they do.

    7. How can our lives have any purpose without God? One word: chocolate.

    8. It’s sweet of you to worry about us, really it is. But it’s not terribly helpful to tell us that we should go ahead and believe in your particular faith “just in case.” Just in case what? In case a deity who can’t distinguish heartfelt faith from apple-polishing affectation happens to be running the show?

    9. Let’s make a deal: we promise to stop asking that stupid question about whether God can make a rock so big he can’t lift it. In exchange, please stop saying, “Well, God doesn’t believe in atheists!” and then laughing like Shakespeare came back to life just long enough to write one last comedy.

    10. Please quit asking us how or why we “turned our backs” on God. The whole point of being an atheist is that we don’t see any reason to think we did any such thing.

    11. Anyone who was born in an English-speaking country and is more than two minutes old has heard about God and Jesus. It’s annoying when you assume that atheists just haven’t heard enough about them, and that’s why we’re still atheists. Many of us have done extensive research on the subject of religion. Many of us credit our atheism to exactly that.

    12. Please stop telling your atheist acquaintances that you’ll miss us when you get to heaven. No, you won’t. If you turn out to be right, you’ll be in heaven – the place where, by definition, people don’t feel sad. And if we’re right – well, guess who won’t be feeling much of anything?

    13. If you’ve ever said, “You can’t prove there isn’t a God” – first of all, congratulations. You’re officially four years old. Second, we never said we could. But until you can show some serious proof that there is one, we see no reason to believe. There’s nothing wrong with taking a leap of faith, provided you acknowledge that’s what you’re doing. Atheists simply prefer other forms of exercise.

    14. Stop asking us how we can be moral without God. It’s simple. We’re awake, and we’re not idiots. That’s all it takes to figure out that sharing the planet with so many other people is a lot more pleasant when we also share some basic ideas about acceptable behavior. I don’t like being stabbed; therefore I support laws against stabbing and promise not to stab anyone myself, no matter how much I may feel like doing so. See how easy?

    15. So far as being a Christian is concerned, you’re either a member of a persecuted minority, or part of a solid majority. Figure out which one of those is the case, and then live with it. You don’t get to switch back and forth depending on whether you think you can smother dissent better at any given moment by either whining that everybody’s always being mean to you, or bellowing that this is your house and you make the rules.

    16. Speaking of persecuted minorities: Christianity used to be one. Did you fight your way to freedom of faith just so you could treat nonbelievers the same way they used to treat you?

    http://www.iamanatheist.com/wishlist.html

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  215. Johnboy (17,015 comments) says:

    You could disguise it as a huge southern runway extension Pete and you’d probably get heaps of party votes from the Wellington business community specially if removing that stupid sign was part of the plan! :)

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  216. RightNow (7,014 comments) says:

    There is no such thing as “catastrophic anthropogenic global warming”

    finally!

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  217. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    The ipcc warns of the future. it is the best report of the knowledge on the subject we have.
    All Major scientific bodies agree about the effects and outlook for the future as expressed by the ipcc.

    And yet the IPCC has slashed the amount of warming in its latest report, so much so, that i do not think we need to fear.

    “Overall, in the absence of major volcanic eruptions – which would cause significant but temporary cooling – and, assuming no significant future long term changes in solar irradiance, it is likely (>66% probability) that the GMST [global mean surface temperature] anomaly for the period 2016–2035, relative to the reference period of 1986–2005, will be in the range 0.3°C–0.7°C (expert assessment, to one significant figure; medium confidence).” (IPCC, 2013, p. 11-52).

    That is from their own report.
    As one observer pointed out, if that rate continued till 2100, global warming this century could be as little as 1.3 Cº.
    I think the planet can handle that.

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  218. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    :lol:
    Fletch

    I can see math and in particular statistics are not your strong point

    compared to the anomaly between 1986 and 2006 the next twenty years is going to add half as much to as much warming as we have caused since the beginning of the industrial revolution.
    then what?
    .7 now
    1 to 1.4 degrees warming 2016 to 2035

    If the warming is liner then.

    1.3 to 2.1 in 2036 to 2055

    We are already hitting worse case what is considered the bounds of safe warming for civilization

    By 2076 to 2095 and best case we are outside what we can realistically cope with.

    This is well within the bounds of a possible life time. Not very long at all

    The 2c limit on warming is considered to be as high as we can risk for our future prospects.

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  219. cha (4,135 comments) says:

    Of course the planet can handle it Fletch….

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  220. mike tan (498 comments) says:

    “We’ve put this website together quickly to make sure we get the party registered on time, so please note the form will not work on mobile or tablet.”

    Ugh. Come on IP.

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  221. Left Right and Centre (3,007 comments) says:

    Roadlice Report:

    Decent size roundabout in evening (Porirua NW). Three exits. I cycle past exit one to use exit two headed south to north. It’s a straight through – same road. Island FOB in car style people mover drives from exit one turning to his left toward exit two. Doesn’t see me at all and drives slowly straight at me. I pedal left of lane to right of lane to try and get to middle of road and get the hell away from dipshit. It takes a number of seconds to the point where there is now half a metre at most between right front corner of car and my back wheel before shit for brains finally notices an object right in front of his eyes.

    I’m in dark clothing but it’s not dark at that intersection it’s well lit with big overhead street lamps.

    What can I try to avoid being hit by thick as pigshit FOBS, huh ? Get me a neon glowing golden arches sign ? Dress up as a tin of corned beef ? They’d fuckin notice me then, wouldn’t they ? Maybe they’re not used to looking for people that aren’t so insanely fat that they’re guaranteed to get type 2 diabetes ? Half of them shouldn’t have a licence – useless retards mate.

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  222. Left Right and Centre (3,007 comments) says:

    Fat person trapped inside a dieter’s body files:

    To celebrate still being able to ride a bike and continue being alive (see above comment) I definitely had the nicety I’d planned.

    Recipe: Dessert – 100mls full cream, 300mls lite coconut cream, instant dessert mix (Greggs, Hansells etc). That’s it or you can add a bit of cornflour to thicken it up, and then a bit of icing sugar to sweeten the savoury cornflour and thicken up some more. Mix with electric whisk etc. Put some in a bowl (because you can’t wait to have some) and the rest in the fridge to actually attempt to set ‘properly’ (it doesn’t do much but anyway). Use teaspoon to dollop small amounts onto ‘fizzy mag wheel’ sweet (subject to availability from your friendly still alive dairy owner) and enjoy.

    Also works well for stretching a Cadbury Rose’s chocolate. Place choc in mouth but savour slowly while lapping up the dessert.

    BLOODY DELICIOUS !! When your favourite TV programme ends (in this case Best Of Top Gear followed later by The Inbetweeners) – quickly hide remaining Rose’s and other dessert paraphernalia (except cream of course) in the shed so there’s something there for the next day.

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  223. ShawnLH (6,605 comments) says:

    “0/10 for me on that Shawn.”

    I generally score you 0/10 in terms of thinking in general Pete.

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  224. MT_Tinman (3,315 comments) says:

    Left Right and Centre (2,702 comments) says:
    June 13th, 2014 at 3:29 am
    Roadlice Report:

    I’m in dark clothing

    Then you are a complete and utter fucking idiot!

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  225. Fletch (6,521 comments) says:

    1 to 1.4 degrees warming 2016 to 2035

    If the warming is liner then.

    1.3 to 2.1 in 2036 to 2055

    The lower estimate is 0.3 deg C. The top 0.7
    It works out just fine (and it’s not my maths).

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  226. Left Right and Centre (3,007 comments) says:

    MT_Tinman – I’m obeying the law. My whole journey is well lit. Can you see someone dressed in dark clothing in your lounge with the lights on dick ? Dark clothing except for white glowing legs.

    Anyone that gets on the roads with all the FOBS ‘driving’ is an utter fucking idiot.

    Dark clothing or dumb FOB. Which one was the bigger factor ? I’d say dumb FOB by about 1 000 times. You could wear a lit up xmas tree – they’re blind, deaf and dumb. And he was fat beyond a joke of course – wearing out the suspension and increased tyre wear on one corner, driver’s seat munted into a distorted shape by something it was never designed for. Fuck me – made by Japs for people who weigh half as much. They must feel all of their many many fat rolls squashed up against the driver’s door. Opening it must be like a dam busting open. You need a good catch on the door – it’ll just pop open under the enormous strain. You might start to see a few doorless FOB mobiles soon to get around that problem. Next they’ll get vans with a centre steered front bench seat and three stripped out rows to have a space capacious enough to squeeze the herd into on their way to the drive thru. Heated roof rack storage lockers for the junk food.

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