General Debate 22 June 2014

June 22nd, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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173 Responses to “General Debate 22 June 2014”

  1. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    Grant Dalton ‘The Little Kiwi Battler’…

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11279103

    Anyone want to contribute any more of our taxpayer dollars to this lying parasite?

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  2. Left Right and Centre (2,971 comments) says:

    Know your raghead nation names . . .

    Iraq = ‘Ee-rock’. Iran = ‘Ee-ron’.

    Have a good one.

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  3. Pete George (23,476 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  4. wiseowl (869 comments) says:

    Yes Pete.
    UF is not a suitable option.

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  5. CHFR (227 comments) says:

    Uh No Pete. The best bet is for National to ignore the Greens, let them whine to a friendly media and for Kiwis to wake up and see that they are fruit loops.

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  6. Griff (7,517 comments) says:

    The Greens are to enamored with left wing social policy like minimum wage and imaginary poverty.
    I would like to see a pragmatic green moment that I can vote for. National serves to many masters to represent any one voters views.

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  7. flipper (3,982 comments) says:

    Kick with his head, pocketknives has from his own computer confirmed that he has a soccer damaged brain. He has also joined the Herald’s green eyed monster club. Both are pathetic.

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  8. Nukuleka (307 comments) says:

    Trivial opinion piece in the Herald this morning from Jack Tame about lack of US media coverage of John Key’s visit. As if we would expect anything else! Why on earth is little boy Jack sent over to the US on junkets such as this? Surely there are proper journalists with a brain and experience who could do a real job and provide intelligent analysis.

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  9. EAD (1,001 comments) says:

    Rodney Hide hits a six this morning in the Herald:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11279019

    I won’t spoil it but it begins:

    “We have developed in New Zealand our own unique and generic analysis of all social and economic problems. It allows us to diagnose the cause of all problems and to prescribe a universal solution. Our analysis works as follows: Once upon a time, long ago, Maori lived in peace and harmony. Then white people came. They took all the land. Maori were disconnected from their natural environment and their cultural traditions. That caused Problem X. The solution to Problem X is a return of traditional ways. Oh, and money. Always money. That’s for recompense. And to fund community groups to assist Maori to recover their past.”

    It end in an oh so Rodney Hide way:

    “The analysis is very satisfying. It attributes blame to history. It removes personal responsibility. It’s compassionate and offers a ready solution. We need more funding. A return of land. And resourced community groups to reconnect whanau and hapu. The only problem would be if it weren’t true. What if pre-European Maori weren’t loving and protective of tamariki? Nah. That couldn’t be. Only racists and reactionaries would say that”

    Well done Rodney Hide – it is so refreshing to hear a politician speak the truth and what we’re all thinking. The NatLab party is all about having right-on PC newsspeak that obscures the truth and turns rational thought and debate into emotive pleas.

    The sad thing for the Maori people is that they’ve been led to believe the impossible dream that they have the right to live their lives at the expense of others as the NatLab tell them this is so and who then use state power to make it happen.

    Martin Luther King realised what equality really meant – it meant the ability to live your life in Liberty, free to succeed and fail on your own merits rather than as a ward of the state (this and his views on the Vietnam War I suspect were the reasons behind his assassination but that’s another story) .

    Instead, Maori and their endlessly expanding list of “rights” have ended up becoming slaves – their ‘right’ to education, the ‘right’ to health care, the ‘right’ to their own TV station, the ‘right’ for special access, the ‘right’ to food and housing. That’s not freedom, that’s dependency. As Alexis de Tocqueville said “These aren’t rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle”

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  10. thedavincimode (6,710 comments) says:

    Surely there are proper journalists

    Late night?

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  11. duggledog (1,528 comments) says:

    Pete, if there ever was a case of over-thinking a problem, and abandoning common sense, that was it. Have you ever worked for Kaipara District Council, at executive level?

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  12. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Tame is another young journo hijacked by the left, along with a once balanced and sensible person by the name of Milne. The Saturday morning programme has become a mushy left-wing platform of crap, with Milne’s socialist diatribe a disgrace.

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  13. Yvette (2,781 comments) says:

    “After David’s had three or four terms as Prime Minister, it could be my turn.”
    Yeah – “Alf’s not here tonight”

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  14. duggledog (1,528 comments) says:

    EAD – re Rodney’s article; he’s going to be spat on and abused for that big time. He is a brave, brave man.

    I think part of the problem Maori and Pakeha now have, is that Maori have had an intimated fable drip fed to them over the years from birth, and it’s backfiring spectacularly.

    The Maori renaissance has meant that young Maori have grown up thinking that they are really actually something quite special, and that they have this thing called ‘mana’ inbuilt etc etc. Probably for the best of intentions, to instill a sense of pride. Not only that, there is a widespread belief abroad that whitey stole their land.

    Then Maori boys and girls grow up only to discover they are actually just like everybody else. They have to find jobs, try to save money, handle getting fired, handle getting turned down for rental accommodation, and they’re not equipped to do these things. And so they get really angry, and these are the people you see on television screaming and cursing at the camera, or saying ‘kia kaha’ and ‘love you’ to a family member in court for a heinous crime.

    Thirty or forty years ago, Maori and Pakeha got on fine, with a common interest in rugby, hunting, fishing, farming, cooking, building a nation, shagging! and a passing interest in the mysterious myths and legends of Maori folklore.

    Those days are almost gone and it’s not because they sold off the railways!

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  15. wiseowl (869 comments) says:

    EAD.
    Agreed,but, I believe Rodney had the chance to do something about this.He could have put a stake in the ground but didn’t .
    It’s all very well for him to write what is the truth now, however he gave us the super expensive city and the racist statutory authority.
    I think Jamie Lee Ross was also going to address these issues but he has been muzzled as well.

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  16. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    I cannot help feeling the need to whack “Tojo” in the swede every time he appears on either Tv or print media. I once did a bit of pugging, and in those days, would have had no trouble in finding extra motivation if up against a goober like him.

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  17. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  18. duggledog (1,528 comments) says:

    Mike, I believe Hide is trying to attack the situation Maori have found themselves in, partly at the hands of, well, people like you. Sorry to say that.

    Maori make up ten odd percent of the populace. They ain’t going anywhere. It’s in everyone’s interests for the problems Maoridom faces to be solved. These problems won’t be solved by money, molly-coddling, more government departments, arse licking or fostering resentment by the vast majority of the nation’s inhabitants.

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  19. hj (6,918 comments) says:

    Immigration fails to raise voter anger

    The economy (20.6 per cent), education (21.6), health (19.2) and unemployment (14.3) are the top four issues important to voters. A little over 12 per cent were worried about housing affordability.

    In the past year, around 71,000 immigrants arrived in New Zealand – the highest number in 11 years. The poll asked if migration levels should change; 44.5 per cent said they should not.

    However, most respondents believe a policy that would restrict non-residents buying property would be “somewhat effective”. Among Aucklanders, in the midst of a housing shortage, the top response was “very effective”.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10186560/Immigration-fails-to-raise-voter-anger

    Labour leader David Cunliffe has taken his hardest line yet against immigrants, blaming them for rising house prices.

    It follows a 3 News-Reid Research poll which shows almost two-thirds of voters say immigration should be restricted.

    “It would take 80 percent of our housing supply just to accommodate this year’s migrants – and National is doing nothing,” says Mr Cunliffe.

    The poll shows 62 percent of voters want tighter restrictions on immigration, while only 35 percent say leave it.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/David-Cunliffe-blames-migrants-for-housing-crisis/tabid/1607/articleID/345855/Default.aspx#ixzz35JEttA2h

    You have to wonder about polls. No one is going to go to war if the poll tells them they will be there on their own?

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  20. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    duggledog
    He starts out by completely misrepresenting what people believe about Maori. He can’t go anywhere rational or credible after that.

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  21. big bruv (13,720 comments) says:

    mikenmild

    “Nice straw man built by Hide:
    ‘Once upon a time, long ago, Maori lived in peace and harmony.’
    No one actually believes this”

    Really?, have a look at the Green party website. These are the very people who may well be a huge part of the next government. While you are there have a look at what the totally mad Delahunty has said time and time again about Murri.

    There are plenty of people who think this way Mike, plenty of white, guilt ridden bone carving wearing socialists who think that all the problems facing Murri are the result of the white man.

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  22. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    BB
    I just had a look at the Green Party website. Funnily enough, I can’t find that comment anywhere under their Maori policy. Perhaps you could tell me exactly where the Green Party says that ‘Maori lived in peace and harmony’?

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  23. Daniel (207 comments) says:

    Just need to say that I love what is happening to Labour at the moment. You’ve got a former consultant, with a corporate lawyer wife who lives in a multimillion dollar mansion in one of the richest suburbs in New Zealand, calling lifelong unionists scabs. Brilliant.

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  24. Manolo (13,580 comments) says:

    @P.G.: you are losing your marbles or what? The Greens are avowed enemies of progress.

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  25. Other_Andy (2,612 comments) says:

    duggledog says:

    “Mike, I believe Hide is trying to attack the situation Maori have found themselves in, partly at the hands of, well, people like you. Sorry to say that.”

    No need to be sorry to tell the truth.

    For a long time now Maori have been told by the ‘kaumatua (and hangers-on) on the gravy train’ and the ‘self loathing, self flagellating apologizing white “progressive” lefties’ that they do not bear responsibility for anything and it is all the fault of the evil white colonist.
    At some stage that’s going to have an impact.

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  26. big bruv (13,720 comments) says:

    mikenmild

    Clearly you are trolling, either that, or you are an idiot. Delahunty has provided mountains of utter crap re Murri, you can find it if you choose to look.

    As somebody said earlier in this thread, you are part of the problem Mike, you are one of those who wants to make excuses for Murri.

    Shame on you Mike.

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  27. jcuknz (704 comments) says:

    There would be a much smaller housing problem if National was not so ideologically opposed to state housing and has abdicated its responsibilities during the current terms of office, as indeed Labour did in the nine years before … neither has any brownie points on this critical subject …. won’t stop me voting National though I think they are disgraceful on this matter.

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  28. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    BB
    You will have no problems quoting such statements then.

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  29. jcuknz (704 comments) says:

    ‘Once upon a time, long ago, Maori lived in peace and harmony.’
    Surely Rodney is being satirical? I believe it to be true if you accept the killing and eating of rivals and the enslaving of thier women as peace and harmony …. not my choice for a P&H life but this is the 21st Century in NZ.

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  30. EAD (1,001 comments) says:

    @ Wiseowl 8.41am,

    I agree…….to an extent. There is a massive ideological battle going on and if we are to turn this ship of State around before it reaches it’s inevitable endgame of bankruptcy and ruin, we really require dissenting voices on whatever platform so the truth can be heard. We have to get our thoughts in order, so as to be able to counter these infringements on our capacity to think for ourselves and the thought control process of “Political Correctness” that mentally incapacitates people from speaking the truth. Many will read Rodney’s article either directly in the Herald or perhaps via platforms like facebook or email and will think – you know what, he is dead right, let’s do something about this and talk openly about.

    You have to realise that thoughts and ideas are formed by controlling language, (e.g. Maori lived in peace and harmony). Hide speaking up like this is great as if people won’t express themselves properly in words – then you have marched straight into George Orwell’s “1984”.

    The thing is Liberty should really be an easy sell – all you have to do is compare West Germany vs. East Germany or South vs. North Korea to see that free markets, rule of law, free speech and small government result in a far more pleasant and successful places to live. Instead our notionally “right wing” government uses the language of the left and never really talk of the principles of Liberty. The sad truth is that while we Liberatarians are busy winning the intellectual argument, Marxist subversives in the NatLab governments are succeeding at chipping away at the foundations of our Nation and freedom.

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  31. Manolo (13,580 comments) says:

    “Lived in peace and harmony” but only after devouring the flesh of their enemies. Cannibalism ruled.

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  32. tom hunter (4,732 comments) says:

    Nice straw man built by Hide:
    ‘Once upon a time, long ago, Maori lived in peace and harmony.’
    No one actually believes this: it is a construct generally used by those who wish to attack Maori, like Hide.

    Here’s the Te Manu Korihi News for Monday, June 16, and here’s the backup written news piece. The latter accurately reflects what was said over the air:

    The report says Maori culture holds tamariki and wahine in high esteem. However, European colonisation taught tangata whenua new ways of privileging men – rendering women and children as possessions and contributing to male violence against them.

    The report found that Pakeha influence of encouraging rural whanau to move to the city made them feel isolated and disconnected from their culture and extended families, which resulted in breaking down their spirit and mana.

    I happened to be driving at the time this came over the radio and my reaction was to roll my eyes and think “here we go again”. Now it does not explicitly come out and say that “Maori lived in peace and harmony” but that sure as hell is the implication when Pakeha colonisation is mentioned as a factor, but no other factors are mentioned from the Glenn Report, and no other factors mentioned in the following days as the report was digested.

    As an example of what could have been done in follow-up is the statement about new ways of privileging men (and it’s 10 to 1 odds that the writer of that sentence is a graduate of wimmins 101), which Te Manu Korihi could easily have followed up by asking what the old ways of privileging men had been in traditional Maori society and whether those still existed?

    I’ll give you an out milky: you can modify your argument by saying that more than a few people do actually believe that Once upon a time, long ago, Maori lived in greater peace and harmony.

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  33. cha (3,943 comments) says:

    Idiot ShawnLH will be disappointed with the news that bibles don’t stop bullets.

    Additionally, Wagoner said a religious book stopped two of the bullets fired at him. Two bullets were found lodged in the book titled, “The Message,” which is a modern translation of the Bible that was inside Wagoner’s shirt pocket. Biehl said it’s “not credible” that bullets were fired into the book without penetrating the torso. The only DNA identified at the scene – blood droplets – were traced to Wagoner, the police chief said.

    http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/police-press-conference-on-rta-shooting-incident-a/ngNKY/

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  34. Northland Wahine (667 comments) says:

    I comment last night in another thread and somewhat relevant to Hide’s article this morning…

    Northland Wahine (620 comments) says:
    June 21st, 2014 at 5:30 pm
    JB, we are surrounded by apologists. Seriously, I don’t think people of Maori descent are seen as individuals. They are seen as entire race. It’s the race that these apologists want to appease. Not the individual. In my experience, Most apologists have fuck all to do with many Maori one on one. And if any one of Maori descent disagrees with them?
    They’re labelled an Uncle Tom.

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  35. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Nothing to argue with there, tom. That report didn’t say that Maori lived in peace and harmony, but seems to point to the disruptive effect that colonisation has had on traditional society. Thanks for pointing that out – it places you in company with most modern scholarship.

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  36. EAD (1,001 comments) says:

    Just in addition to 9.31am post, when I talk about the argument and getting our thoughts in order, I should add to that the ability to filter out all of the noise and Bread and Circuses distractions to be set aside and focus on the real issues. Even on this website, a politically focused one, just about all of the topics of discussion are, in the big scheme of things, trivial – who funded what party, Labour said this, National said that, something about a fat German or a purportedly serious matter like “Quantatative easing” get glossed over with a superficial analysis. Take a look at that article on Gay marriage in Luxembourg and my response the other day to look at the fog of confusion that makes the real issue harder to identify.

    When it comes to the Maori gravy train, the real issue is Positive Rights vs. Negative Rights and their consequences. Positive ones are those that require other people to act in order for them to be available, these include the right to education, health care, benefits, paid holidays and so on. Negative rights on the other hand, do not need anybody to act in order to exist, they just require the law to protect them from any encroachments. These include the right to one’s body, property rights, conscience or free speech.

    Positive rights are attractive because they provide Maori all sorts of goodies at the expense of the public, as they require state enforcement, they are favoured by governments, who can then tap themselves on the back for spending other people’s money or forcing people to act against their will under the justification of fulfilling whatever latest “right” or grievance that has been concocted.

    Positive rights are not only ultimately anti-humanistic and civilisation destroying, but because they require state coercion (nobody works for free or pays taxes willingly), they divide the citizenry between users of rights, who benefit from them, and providers of rights, who must do so under threat. This is against any notion of liberty and the dignity of the individual (including the dignity of recipients of rights, who become dependent on them). Therefore the only true rights are negative rights, since they guarantee the dignity and freedom of the individual.

    The great winners are of course the NatLab illusion of choice governments and their activists who accumulate power and jobs. That’s why we can only expect the list of Maori (and LGBT – how dehumanising is that term! and Woman and Youth and so forth) rights to grow endlessly as we grow increasingly divided against ourselves while ignoring the real enemy – the Political Class and their nice sounding but ultimately destructive ideas. Their is a reason the Fabian emblem is a wolf in sheep’s clothing……

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  37. Harriet (4,853 comments) says:

    They’ve been branding everything under the sun as Maori – government depts in Maori words, involvement of Maori in all public matters at all levels of government, ect – and now young fatherless, unemployed, low educated Maori males think that they own the entire country and everyone else is an ‘intruder’ – and that the public at large is answerable to them when walking down the street!

    They have an attitude problem.

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  38. Gulag1917 (878 comments) says:

    A lot more need to be excommunicated if the Vatican is to be consistent.
    http://news.yahoo.com/mafiosi-excommunicated-pope-says-151122053.html;_ylt=AwrBJR_AsaVTY1QAwG7QtDMD

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  39. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ big bruv (12,766 comments) says:
    June 22nd, 2014 at 9:16 am

    Clearly you need to slow your typing down, for some reason you seem to often spell Māori, as murri. Perhaps a cuppa and a nap might allow you to focus a bit better.

    And, I don’t believe that anyone has promoted Māori as living in peace and harmony. There was disagreement among hapu and Iwi, just as there is today among people with differing opinions and causes. Where the peace and harmony claims are made, is in how the majority of Māori originally greeted Europeans. There is a large amount of documented evidence that settlers were assisted by Māori, fed by them, and even assistance was given to build houses and develop land.

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  40. Redbaiter (8,549 comments) says:

    “They’ve been branding everything under the sun as Maori – government depts in Maori words, involvement of Maori in all public matters at all levels of government,”

    Only because we have allowed it, by electing politicians who have enabled these actions. The status quo has to go. We have to stop electing cowards.

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  41. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Harriet (4,311 comments) says:
    June 22nd, 2014 at 9:52 am

    …They have an attitude problem…

    They wouldn’t be the only ones.

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  42. adze (2,105 comments) says:

    The union shill on the Q+A panel is having a meltdown. :) Funny stuff.

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  43. Harriet (4,853 comments) says:

    “…..settlers were assisted by Māori, fed by them,……and even assistance was given to build houses and develop land…..”

    The maori worked for the white people who had the knowledge to build houses.[Maori were at least paid in the way where they were taught a very valuable skill – that of building houses to house themselves.

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  44. duggledog (1,528 comments) says:

    I think colonisation was the best thing that ever happened to Maori quite frankly and it would be pointless to list all the benefits of European social, legal and technological advantages at that time as we are all quite au fait with them.

    A trip to any museum in the country will refresh anyone’s memory of the utterly squalid, miserable, brutal, short lives most Maori lived at the time of European settlement. Paintings were invariably glorified with natives’ living conditions made to look like a South Pacific paradise (mostly to con new settlers into coming).

    The newly invented camera painted an entirely different, more accurate picture.

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  45. Left Right and Centre (2,971 comments) says:

    Political training kicks in again as I realised I should wait to hear if Susan Wood would farewell her Q+A viewing audience in two languages or one. One was enough for her today.

    And I should catch the end of ‘Marae’ to see if the farewell on that programme is offered in two lingos or not.

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  46. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Harriet (4,312 comments) says:
    June 22nd, 2014 at 10:01 am

    Māori were taught ANOTHER way of building houses. They already had houses of their own, just not in the style of the ‘white’ man. I should also add that ‘white’ man’s houses were built to the standards of their country of origin. Most of those houses fell down, or rotted away, were cold, or too hot, and completely unsuitable for this country’s climate and environment. Most of those first houses disappeared long before the Māori whare that had been standing long before colonisation.

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  47. stephieboy (2,794 comments) says:

    Just watched a replay of Crimes that shook Britain.VG series and this one dealt with David Copeland the Brixton Bomber who sowed mayhem,fear,death and injury with his homemade nail bombs .He planted them in various locations in central London targeting Black, Asian and gay communities.
    Incredible police detective work. Media and public co operation eventually got him.Yet not before three of
    Copeland’s crude nail bombs had killed,maimed and seriously injured dozens of innocent civilians.
    David Copland , a rather sad and pathetic loner, was a member of various far right Neo Nazi organizations including the British National Socialist Movement.It , like others preached white supremacy and hatred of ethnic and racial minorities.
    Copland received six consecutive life sentences and the documentary was also a tribute to those who rose above prejudices and hatreds to advocate for non violence and peace among all races and ethnic groups.

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  48. Harriet (4,853 comments) says:

    “………“I love the fact we have a PM with such a normal sense of humour.”

    I wouldn’t say that was normal.

    I’d say that was a pretty off thing to say about your wife.

    I don’t think for example, that Tony Abbot would be seen making such a joke…….”

    They’ed be screaming like fucken blood thirsty banshees if he did Red:

    “….my kiwi born wife wouldn’t ever dream of asking me to cut off the supply to my firehose….” :cool:

    Key’s trying to be one of the boys – unlike the vasectomised metrosexual one he was passing himself off as only a couple of yrs ago. The loser.

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  49. stephieboy (2,794 comments) says:

    Harriet , maybe you might like to begin pen paling David Cropland at Broad moor prison .? Whether you like it or not Key’s has the mojo that will see him cruise into office come to September.
    The signs are he’ll do it even without the embarrassing moon bat Con Party.

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  50. stephieboy (2,794 comments) says:

    I see judging by the red tick someone here sympathizes with the murder and bombing attacks against racial,ethnic and gay groups by the crazed David Copeland.
    Now I wonder which sicko that could be.?

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  51. Paulus (2,607 comments) says:

    I am sure that Glenn when he put forward the costs of this report did not expect the anti Pakeha vitriol to come out.
    I am sure he is disappointed in the result which says nothing of worthwhile consequence.
    I would be if I, with the best of intentions, found that I had been hijacked by the native envy fringe.
    Report of Report – nothing to Report. No Consequences.
    Stinking Pakeha.

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  52. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Harriet thinbks a vasectomy might be a threat to masculinity. LOL. Keep em coming Harriet.

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  53. tom hunter (4,732 comments) says:

    @mikenmild

    Chuckle. I knew I could rely on you for obtuse pedantry. If a left-winger said that I was excited by the sight of massed crowds dressed in black clothing with touches of red and high leather boots you’d be the first in line to say that he hadn’t actually called me a Nazi.

    Snark aside do you think that Maori are better off today following colonisation, or worse off, or – and I know this will be your favoured response – worse off in some respects and better off in other respects?

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  54. Harriet (4,853 comments) says:

    LOL stephie.

    Keys carried the middle no where – he simply went to the middle – and has not changed anything that helen had in place.

    He has simply consulted with the entire left in government via select committees on everything. The left then gets a say in everything – and ends up compromising policy from a conservative point of view.
    Conservative voters WITHIN national arn’t being listened to. In 2017, and without a conservative party governing with Nartional, then national will have had 9yrs of taking the CENTER nowhere – and then a very large amount of voters will move to the conservatives.

    National will want the conservatives governing with them – than giving them a parlimentry voice to point out all of nationals faults.

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  55. Yvette (2,781 comments) says:

    They had done a manual search of hard copies, but only kept them for about 3 years. One computer hard drive from his office had been stolen, another was disabled in a power spike, and the letter was mis-filed under LUI rather than LIU in a retired staff member’s files.

    WANTED: Would any member of the general public who find they have Labour Party files in their possession – either accidently, or by design, in hard-copy, electronic or mental form – please return then to David Cunliffe, Party Leader, without disclosing to anyone else that you have had this material, or are even aware of to its existence. Thank you.

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  56. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    If you know the answer tom, why ask the question? Pointless though the question might be – whether you approve or not, Maori were colonised. More relevant questions might be around why Maori figure so prominently in the worst of our social statistics and what, if anything, should be done about that.

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  57. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ stephieboy (1,761 comments) says:
    June 22nd, 2014 at 10:53 am

    The thing with the ticks Stephen, is that you have no way of knowing why they are given. Many do not even bother to read the contents or check any links given, but merely tick because they like or dislike the poster. Others tick because they are faithful to their political party of choice or simply because they disagree with you on another issue.

    Ignore them, they are a numerical indication of who knows how to point their point their mouse and click – and nothing else.

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  58. stephieboy (2,794 comments) says:

    Harriet, Key will be carrying the center towards a stunning victory come 20/11 leaving a shattered far right and left in it’s wake.
    Extremist policies including e.g approval of the Brixton bombings s and moon bat Conspiracy theories have no place in a a decent progressive forward thinking government..
    You’ve missed the boat and plot with your diatribe and rant.
    Bye,bye…

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  59. dime (9,856 comments) says:

    “Chuckle. I knew I could rely on you for obtuse pedantry. If a left-winger said that I was excited by the sight of massed crowds dressed in black clothing with touches of red and high leather boots you’d be the first in line to say that he hadn’t actually called me a Nazi.”

    Yep.theres always one on a blog. I think milky thinks that he is clever.

    Truth is he offers nothing to the blog. Very rarely, if ever, does he post an original thought.

    His sole purpose is to be the guy who says.. Prove it. Show me the quote blah blah

    Whatever gets him through the day..

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  60. Griff (7,517 comments) says:

    Why they feature in negative statistics ?
    Culture.
    Stop telling them to be stone age Maori and proud of it The stone age culture was violent and abusive especially to those not members of the tribe. Is it little wonder that they act as they do when they are told by many that being violent tribal stone age Warriors is something to be proud off as way of life.

    Alan Duff said the same thing twenty years ago and apologists still keep telling them they are separate and special.

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  61. tom hunter (4,732 comments) says:

    If you know the answer tom, why ask the question?

    I thought you’d appreciate that milky, since it’s the majority of your debating repertoire on Kiwiblog.

    More relevant questions might be around why Maori figure so prominently in the worst of our social statistics

    Well yes, such as asking what the old ways of privileging men had been in traditional Maori society, whether they still exist – and what can be done about them.

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  62. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    What part of Maori culture specifically endorses violence towards children Griff.? Early European writers are universal in their descriptions of Maori children being valued and exceptionally indulged. I think it’s a bit too easy to throw out epithets like ‘stone age’.

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  63. Bob (496 comments) says:

    I’ll bet Donghua Liu wishes he had never gone near our politicians.

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  64. OneTrack (3,020 comments) says:

    mike – “More relevant questions might be around why Maori figure so prominently in the worst of our social statistics and what, if anything, should be done about that.”

    How convenient. Rodney Hide gives the main reason in his opinion piece in the Herald today.

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  65. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Well tom, I’m not sure that male privilege in traditional Maori culture extended to letting men abuse and kill their own children.

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  66. OneTrack (3,020 comments) says:

    stephieboy – “Harriet, Key will be carrying the center towards a stunning victory come 20/11 leaving a shattered far right and left in it’s wake.”

    I think you mean 20/9. It’s not that far away now.

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  67. Griff (7,517 comments) says:

    :lol:
    yip mike when they ate them ….eh … Or tattooed them for the head trade
    They where known to kill their own children to escape in fights. Other tribes kids would be considered as food, slaves or to be slaughtered indiscriminately.
    You haven’t actually read much early history rather than the pap of the apologists have you .
    Housing was basic if any in fact for many it consisted of a flax cloak.

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  68. tom hunter (4,732 comments) says:

    Ah! So I take it you’re also not sure if letting men abuse and kill their own children is part of the new ways of privileging men.

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  69. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    OneTrack
    Hide seems to criticise the colonisation reason, but offers no alternative explanation.

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  70. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    tom
    I’m not sure what you are getting at. Where did I say anything about privileging men? Or ‘letting’ people kill?

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  71. stephieboy (2,794 comments) says:

    I think a more baanced perspective needs to be made about Maori Society and traditional warfare .This has been a feature of all societies inluding the ancient celts both in Britain and Western Europe.At times very brutal intertribal wars and conflicts were common in ancient Britain and Europe .They were the stuff of society and nation building no different to the Maori.Also recall that brutal and barbaric punishments like hanging,drawing and quavering were not abolished till the early 19th century.Not to speak of other barbaric kinds of punishments meted out in medieval society and beyond like the Wheel,Carroting , the rack etc and so on.Do remember the Roman specilaity of Crucifixion.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_warfare

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  72. Johnboy (16,063 comments) says:

    Milkey’s just pissed cause despite his attempted re-write of history yesterday his team is coming second! :)

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  73. Johnboy (16,063 comments) says:

    http://www.clubrugby.co.nz/wellington/games-results.php?competition=3&season=9&round=1

    :) :) :)

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  74. stephieboy (2,794 comments) says:

    Thanks one-track.I stand correctEd re 20/11 .It should be as you posted 20/9.

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  75. OneTrack (3,020 comments) says:

    mike – “Hide seems to criticise the colonisation reason, but offers no alternative explanation.”

    Except that is the reason. The problem (in leftie land) is colonisation. Hence, we cannot even consider other problems, because there aren’t any, it’s all colonisations fault.

    Why are maori children ending up in tumble-driers? It’s colonisation, silly. What shall we do? Tell maori, again, that its colonisation’s fault and not a maori issue. Ok, job well done team. That was a hard days work, wasn’t it. Time for the afternoon tea trolley yet.

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  76. tom hunter (4,732 comments) says:

    Hide seems to criticise the colonisation reason, but offers no alternative explanation.

    Funnily enough, with regard to Maori child abuse issues, the Glenn Report and the news media coverage of it did not seem to highlight alternative explanations to the colonisation reason either, even though they implied that it was “a” factor, not the only one.

    I’m not sure what you are getting at. Where did I say anything about privileging men? Or ‘letting’ people kill?

    You did say that you’re not sure that male privilege in traditional Maori culture extended to letting men abuse and kill their own children..

    Does saying I’m not sure … equate to Where did I say anything about…?

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  77. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I meant that you were the one bringing up the whole ‘male privilege’ thing. I think that’s irrelevant, and I said so.

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  78. tom hunter (4,732 comments) says:

    I’m bringing it up?

    The Glenn Report brought it up and New Zealand’s premier news service picked it out as a highlight in both their verbal and written reports.

    I think that’s irrelevant, and I said so.

    That’s very declarative – although I note that I did not actually see you saying that earlier. The closest you came was when you said that

    I’m not sure that male privilege in traditional Maori culture extended to letting men abuse and kill their own children.

    and

    Early European writers are universal in their descriptions of Maori children being valued and exceptionally indulged.

    Both of which seem to be saying that you don’t think there were any old ways of male privileging in traditional Maori society that are causal to modern child abuse in Maori communities.

    Fair enough – but I did not see you say anything about new ways of privileging men.. I presume that you also think that this is irrelevant and you’re willing to say so?

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  79. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    New way of privileging men, whatever that piece of mumbo jumbo means, are irrelevant. Happy now? But tell me tom, do you have any answers to the qestion of why so many Maori men assault and kill their children? Or are you just with Hide – colonisation has nothing to do with it but you just have no idea what does?

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  80. lilman (953 comments) says:

    Aunty who worked in a hospital back when she was 15 in Hawera said she could remember an old Maori Lady when asked if there was anything she would like as she was dying she said she would love the forearm of a young child,said she never forgot the taste.
    Seems to me that had nothing to do with colonialism.

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  81. Other_Andy (2,612 comments) says:

    mikenmild says:

    “But tell me tom, do you have any answers to the qestion of why so many Maori men assault and kill their children? Or are you just with Hide – colonisation has nothing to do with it but you just have no idea what does?”

    Your first problem is that you are a racialist.
    Them being Maori men or their skin pigmentation has as much to do with assaulting and killing children as their shoe size.

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  82. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    And yet, Andy, Maori seems to have a greater propensity to commit such crimes. Do you have some other explanation that doesn’t involve race or culture?

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  83. tom hunter (4,732 comments) says:

    Happy now?

    Not really. You could have just said that at the start.

    Or are you just with Hide – colonisation has nothing to do with it but you just have no idea what does?

    Have you stopped beating your wife yet – and other debating tactics.

    Hide thinks that “colonisation” is simply a vast intellectual wank that gives warm and fuzzy feelings to promoters of the theory but does not actually do anything to prevent Maori child abuse. Hide does have an idea as to what causes this abuse – he thinks that the abusers and killers are personally responsible but that that won’t be addressed with anything other than arrest and jail time as long as the perps can be viewed as victims. Hide says all this with one sarcastic paragraph:

    It’s very neat. The problem with Jake the Muss is his great-great-great-great-great-grandad being colonised. And disconnected. It isn’t Jake’s fault. Poor thing. He’s a victim, too. We need to take Jake back to pre-European ways for him to heal and be restored.

    As opposed to you milky, for whom colonisation has everything to do with it, you don’t want to think about anything else, but you have no answers except more effort, more institutions and more money from the state, which have demonstrably failed over the years.

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  84. Johnboy (16,063 comments) says:

    Playing Rugby seems to bring out the worst violence in the darker races it would seem milkey.

    And that’s before religious factors come into play even! :)

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  85. stephieboy (2,794 comments) says:

    lilman , seems like a bit of a tall story.? When did your Aunt work at the hospital.?Cannibalism declined with the introduction of meats like Pork pork and was largely a ceremonial ritual by the Rangateria classes.It would of been extinguished by the 1840s I would say.The Maori woman would of been very, very old indeed.

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  86. Johnboy (16,063 comments) says:

    “Pork pork” still sounds tasty to me steph! :)

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  87. Other_Andy (2,612 comments) says:

    mikenmild says:

    “And yet, Andy, Maori seems to have a greater propensity to commit such crimes.

    No they don’t.
    People living in dysfunctional ‘alternative’ families have a greater propensity to commit such crimes.

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  88. Other_Andy (2,612 comments) says:

    mikenmild says:

    “And yet, Andy, Maori seems to have a greater propensity to commit such crimes. Do you have some other explanation that doesn’t involve race or culture?”

    White guilt, unchecked welfarism and the treaty gravy train.
    On top of that, people are pigeonholed by the left wing bureaucrats and intelligentsia.
    It is not your fault.
    So you either wait for the check to come in or blame it on the white mofos.
    If that doesn’t work take it out on others…..

    I wonder what the child abuse rate is for Maori (Whatever that is) overseas (Australia), away from the poisonous mix of left wing paternalism and ‘Maori’ corporatism and peer pressure?

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  89. Dom Knots (155 comments) says:

    Three weeks of media hype and what the red rose wasn’t going to do to the All blacks couldn’t be written on the back of a postage stamp.’swing low sweeeet chaaaariot…’. Now we know why they sing a slave song. Still slaves to the boss man, england. Well done.

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  90. lilman (953 comments) says:

    If my Aunt was alive she would have been 98 now,the Maori lady was very old,no idea how old she was,believe it or not I dont care either way.
    Maori ate and killed their way back and forth across the country,try and reinvent this country as a paradise if you want,the facts are it was very basic in its way of life,housing,health,life and death, politics were decided by the power of a club or Taiaha.
    Slaves were taken, with land, by warring factions and eating their captives was common place,not the exception.

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  91. tom hunter (4,732 comments) says:

    One of the prime reasons that colonialism is pushed as a reason (the primary reason it would seem) for Maori child abuse is that it obviates any discussion of race or culture, and gives the likes of mikenmild the opportunity for endless baiting – the whole what other reasons than colonialism could there be? Huh, Huh? Come on, tell me the reasons. You know you want to.

    It’s therefore amusing to see that the theory does actually contain racialist and culturalist thoughts, as Hide notes:

    I understand from this analysis that there’s not a lot we can do for the child-beater who lacks a colonised forebear. His mistreatment of women and children is genetic and cultural. It’s the colonialist’s way.

    But we already saw that earlier with this comment:

    Early European writers are universal in their descriptions of Maori children being valued and exceptionally indulged.

    As opposed to any number of European writers who noted how often European cultures failed to value children and did not indulge them at all, let alone exceptionally – Dickens comes to mind.

    So it would seem that mikenmild does think that pre-European Maori society was superior to European society, at least in terms of how it treated kids, even as he objects that no one actually believes that Maori lived in peace and harmony and that is merely a construct generally used by those who wish to attack Maori, like Hide.

    I now look forward to the phrase about peace and harmony being sidetracked into discussions of tribal warfare rather than intra-tribal or family violence.

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  92. Johnboy (16,063 comments) says:

    Apologists will never let your truths get in the way of their fantasy’s lilman! :)

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  93. Griff (7,517 comments) says:

    was largely a ceremonial ritual by the Rangateria classes.

    It was a practice of daily life done often with no ceremony or thought other than meat.
    Rangatira is a interesting word that is recorded as meaning different things to different tribes in fact to many it meant the equivalent of citizen. as apposed to slave.

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  94. hj (6,918 comments) says:

    The anthropologist Phillip Walker has studied the bones of more than 5,000 children from hundreds of preindustrial cultures, dating back to 4,000 B. C. He has yet to find the scattered bone bruises that are the skeletal hallmarks of “battered child syndrome.” In some modern societies, Walker estimates, such bruises would be found on more than 1 in 20 children who die between the ages of one and four. Walker accounts for this contrast with several factors, including a grim reminder of Hobbesian barbarism: unwanted children in primitive societies were often killed at birth, rather than resented and brutalized for years. But another factor, he believes, is the public nature of primitive child rearing, notably the watchful eye of a child’s aunts, uncles, grandparents or friends. In the ancestral environment, there was little mystery about what went on behind closed doors, because there weren’t any.

    http://www.oocities.org/athens/stage/8922/
    Industrial society requires specialisation of labour, control of the landscape, produces larger populations but our minds evolved in a different world. We come loaded up with software.
    When white children were captured by Native Americans (between certain ages) 10/13 or so wanted to remain with the Indians “everyday was like a holiday”.

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  95. cricko (303 comments) says:

    big bruv
    Great result for the team last night.
    Clean sweep of the Poms.
    (hope it hasn’t ruined your week.)

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  96. Nostradamus (3,245 comments) says:

    Judith:

    Judith (6,725 comments) says:
    June 22nd, 2014 at 11:19 am

    @ stephieboy (1,761 comments) says:
    June 22nd, 2014 at 10:53 am

    The thing with the ticks Stephen, is that you have no way of knowing why they are given. Many do not even bother to read the contents or check any links given, but merely tick because they like or dislike the poster. Others tick because they are faithful to their political party of choice or simply because they disagree with you on another issue.

    Ignore them, they are a numerical indication of who knows how to point their point their mouse and click – and nothing else.

    But, Judith, how should Kiwiblog readers respond to an overwhelming numerical indication like this one?

    Judith (6,725 comments) says:
    June 18th, 2014 at 1:23 pm

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

    Unpopular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 91

    That’s quite possibly an all-time Kiwiblog record (excluding a brief period where DPF had technical issues with the voting system).

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  97. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Nostradamus (2,858 comments) says:
    June 22nd, 2014 at 2:25 pm

    So what? Tell me Nostradamus, do you use Kiwiblog to make friends or do you use to post your opinions about certain issues?

    I could agree with everyone, and get lots of ticks up for my efforts, but what would be the point of that? How would that achieve anything. I happen not to need the approval of others in order to live my life. I certainly don’t expect anyone here to agree with me, and don’t care if they do or don’t. Whilst you might prefer to live your life superficially, I don’t. Thank goodness is it not yet a crime to have a different opinion, although I’m sure you’d like to make it that way.

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  98. Nostradamus (3,245 comments) says:

    Judith:

    Tell me Nostradamus, do you use Kiwiblog to make friends or do you use to post your opinions about certain issues?

    Funny you should ask me that. You’ve racked up 6,732 comments compared to my 2,859. I first started commenting on Kiwiblog back in 2005. So evidently you spend a lot more time on Kiwiblog than I do!

    Thank goodness is it not yet a crime to have a different opinion, although I’m sure you’d like to make it that way.

    Moonbat alert! Are you sure? Are you really sure? Feel free to point to any comment of mine that could be construed as supporting the proposition that it should be a crime to have a different opinion. Take your time. You obviously have more time to comment here than I do!

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  99. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Nostradamus (2,859 comments) says:
    June 22nd, 2014 at 2:25 pm

    How about this one!

    And to answer part one of your latest comment, because you clearly don’t like it when someone posts something that many don’t agree with – as you felt it necessary to point it out. You may also like to know that some people admitted they didn’t even read it, and that also a certain poster on here emailed people, who emailed others on their contact lists to come and vote that post down. Unfortunately some idiot that has me on their email contacts, sent it to me by mistake.

    Like I said at the time – its nice to know that some see me as such a threat that they hoped (according to the email) that a determined effort would get me banned. Silencing someone that disagrees with you – now that’s a novel concept. I really don’t care, what you or others think, when I agree with someone, I say so. I take each post on its own value and don’t have ‘favourites’ or enemies on the internet – they aren’t real people who matter.

    Regarding my posting. The majority of my work is internet based which enables me to read and post when I’m waiting for communications, or taking a break. But nice that you feel strongly enough to monitor – is it just me you save that attention for, or do you check out others as well?

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  100. Johnboy (16,063 comments) says:

    I find it difficult to believe that folks would bother emailing each other to vote down your posts Judith?

    Paranoid somewhat?

    I vote you down generally without needing anyone to email me though just, very ocasionally I give you a tick! :)

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  101. Nostradamus (3,245 comments) says:

    Judith:

    Are you seriously telling me that there was an orchestrated email campaign against you? That’s news to me.

    I do note, though, that you’re on record as having some kind of personal issue with John Key. Just as a matter of interest, what did he last say or do that you agreed with?

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  102. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Nostradamus (2,860 comments) says:
    June 22nd, 2014 at 3:12 pm

    No, there was a bunch of dumwit losers who think that a woman that has an opinion different to theirs should not be allowed anywhere that they can read it. They are a joke – people that behave like that deserve to be as unhappy and miserable as they seem to be.

    John Key – I really like his recent handling over the Americas Cup. He is reflecting the wishes of the community, over the desires of the sport (despite the fact I believe the Cup is worthwhile economically in the good media it gives) I respect the fact that he is doing what the people want, and not pampering to a richmans sport demands.

    @ johnboy

    I don’t really care – I don’t take any of it on board. I realised a long time ago there were people in the world that have to have approval etc. As far as I am concerned, the ticking system is for them. Poor wee insecure souls that they are.

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  103. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    Putin Advisor Proposes “Anti-Dollar Alliance” To Halt US Aggression Abroad

    Glazyev’s set of countermeasures specifically targets the core strength of the US war machine, i.e. the Fed’s printing press. Putin’s advisor proposes the creation of a “broad anti-dollar alliance” of countries willing and able to drop the dollar from their international trade. Members of the alliance would also refrain from keeping the currency reserves in dollar-denominated instruments. Glazyev advocates treating positions in dollar-denominated instruments like holdings of junk securities and believes that regulators should require full collateralization of such holdings.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-18/putin-advisor-proposes-anti-dollar-alliance-halt-us-foreign-aggression

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  104. Manolo (13,580 comments) says:

    With friends like him, who needs enemies?
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/21/neil-kinnock-ed-miliband-2015

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  105. stephieboy (2,794 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, what aggression abroad .? BTW did you catch my post yesterday that exposed the misinformation by Erik Rush of the moon bat WND.
    He deliberately misquoted from the Guardian claiming the US were training ISIS militants in Jordan .They were in fCt training Syrian rebel groups to combat ISIS militants.

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  106. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    Mikey at 12.24: I have come late to this, so my points may already have been made.

    You ask why, if it is not colonization, Maori appear to beat and bash their children at a higher rate that Non Maori. The answer, IMHO, is simply that Maori culture was and remains an extremely violent one. Have you ever read Paul Moon’s “This horrid practice” about Maori cannabilism? Moon – himself a “Maori” by modern definitions – concludes that Maori as a whole lived in a state of semi permanent paranoia, if not full blown psychosis, caused by the constant and all pervasive fear of being bashed to death at any moment.

    This is not unique to Maori: Get a book by William Mariner, a cabin boy on a ship called the Port au Prince, which was ambushed in Tonga in 1806 …Most of the crew were killed and many were eaten, but the Chief involved in the attack took a shine to Mariner (let’s not go there…) and ordered him to be spared. Mariner subsequently lived for four years in Tonga, and on his return to England wrote a book about this experiences…It describes a life of subsistence agriculture – much easier in Tonga than here – and endless warfare…He describes captives being bought back to his patron’s village and having “their brains knocked out” on dish shaped stones carved for that purpose, and their bodies eaten.

    In addition to Moon’s, numerous contemporary accounts exist of Maori living pre 1840 They all paint a very similar story: a story of depraved and cruel treatment of slaves, both male and female, of cannabilism and infanticide used as a means of population control when resources were scarce.

    Why are the shadows of that behaviour still present 7 or 8 generations later? I don’t know…I am neither an anthropologist nor a psychologist…I am however a voracious reader of early NZ history, and facts are facts, no matter how inconvenient.

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  107. minus (178 comments) says:

    Last week a Herald-DigiPoll survey found the party on 30 per cent, polls the previous week for One News and 3 News had almost exactly the same figures. In a fourth poll, published on Thursday, Labour had dropped to just over 23 per cent.

    At what point does Labour’s strike disaster – that they rate less than the other opposition parties combined?
    And loose initiative against the others combined?

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  108. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    minus (112 comments) says:
    June 22nd, 2014 at 3:58 pm

    At what point does Labour’s strike disaster

    Well National hit 21% in an actual election, and they didn’t self-implode and are doing well today, so why should Labour give up, they have National’s example to go by. :-)

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  109. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    ‘Moon – himself a “Maori” by modern definitions – concludes that Maori as a whole lived in a state of semi permanent paranoia’
    Um no, he doesn’t. Have you even read that book?

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  110. minus (178 comments) says:

    Rex, if colonization could be considered a factor in Maori behaviour, the cumulative effect of the greater experience of earlier life you mention must have been more so, and, as researchers like Dr J Dispenza indicate how genetics may alter in even the individual, pre-colonization Maori would likely be inclined to view life differently to other cultures, faulty as those may have been too, but not constantly afflicted with slavery, cannibalism and infanticide.

    Why do the shadows of that behaviour still exist – perhaps not that much really has happened to change genetics – Land Wars, two World Wars, the Depression, urban drift and Rogernomics, won’t have done much to help. Nor a continual negative reiteration of a Maori “tail” in all statistics either, even if true.

    And not colonization.

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  111. minus (178 comments) says:

    Judith – I just wondered at what point the Greens, with perhaps other support, may grasp the initiative and lead the Opposition?
    In which Election was National 21%?

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  112. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    Um…Mikey, not only have I read the book, (“This Horrid Practice”) I own a copy signed by the author…I suggest you read it again, particularly the last couple of chapters. I have also read Mariners account of his time in Tonga cover to cover.

    Minus: Well said…and returning to Tonga – a country I can claim more than a little familiarity with – up until the 1970’s Tongans were not permitted to buy alcohol because Queen Salote decided they could not handle it…Now it is freely available, and “murder by bush knife and piss” is a common crime, and gives Tonga a homicide rate more than three times ours.

    As I have noted here before, Apirana Ngata was strongly opposed to Maori being able to even enter licenced premises for very similar reasons.

    And none of the above is racist or bigoted or any other pejorative word…it is simple fact.

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  113. Viking2 (11,413 comments) says:

    Its worth reading Captain Cooks journals where he tells about their time in the sounds.
    One Maori family resided there , a man and his wife and daughters. He gave all of them to the sailors for something like and axe and stuff.
    That’s pre-colonization.

    Plenty of recorded times when they ate one another.
    The Pah Rd massacre in Tauranga and the Paeroa Maoris who came to Maketu, took lots of slaves etc and walked back home again with baskets of arms and legs to feast upon.
    One of the local Churchmen went walking back with them and recorded it all.
    Was published in the BOP times a few years ago.

    Have a friend who had a house on the Pah rd site. when digging foundations for a new deck dug up various skulls etc. Before everyone got in to the money for Maori game so just pushed them all back in the hole. Still there today.

    Yep they were friendly, quiet, respectful and luved their family and friends. just the kind of people you would invite over for a BBQ. Which limb would you like or would you rather have brain or a piece of a virgin’s fanny.

    Luvely :lol:

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  114. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I don’t think anyone is disputing that Maori were cannibals, are they? But are we really going to go with an explanation along the lines that Maori are still wedded to a violent, pre-contact culture? Or David’s one – they just can’t handle the drink?

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  115. lilman (953 comments) says:

    Mildandmike,your comment is fair.
    But whats not fair is trying to say pre-colonial,Maori were a peaceful loving society,because that’s just a lie.
    Maori lived and died by conquest,so why are the government giving recompense to Maori when the basis of their existence before settlers arrived was strength based.
    Dont see Taranaki Maori demanding money and an apology from the Waikato tribes.

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  116. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    Did I say those hypotheses of mine were mutually exclusive? In addition to the other things I am not, I am also not a geneticist…I do not know how many generations of “socialization” are needed to breed out fundamental traits…I have however been present numerous times when Tongan guys I knew well, and got on well with, would change personality between their second and third can of VB…and anyone who has lived in the Islands – as opposed to going to Raro and watching an ersatz cultural show with coconut shell bikinis – will tell you similar things.

    But you wont have lived in the Islands Mikey, in fact you probably haven’t lived outside Welly. I think I can say for absolute certain that you never spent any time in a “Flying Jug” pub…You do realise beer jugs weren’t always plastic don’t you?

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  117. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    Oh, and it is by no means universally accepted that Maori were habitual cannibals…When Moon’s book came out I recall a great deal of florid commentary to the effect that he had grossly exaggerated what occurred…especially from other Maori academics…

    Before you make a further fool of yourself Mikey, perhaps I should reveal that although we have never met, Dr Moon and I exchange irregular e-mail correspondence on aspects of early NZ history, about which he is in my view the pre-eminent authority now…

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  118. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ minus (114 comments) says:
    June 22nd, 2014 at 5:06 pm

    I don’t think the Greens ever will, because they suit a particular kind of voter and are therefore limited. At the moment they maybe collecting some of the swinging vote, who is disappointed with Labour but not prepared to go with National, or their partners. They are also benefiting from the ‘fashionable’ vote – Green being the new black, in that its not seen to be supporting the unions, but has great shock value when you want to be an upper class rebel.

    PS – 2002

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  119. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    But I don’t think I have made a fool of myself, David. I’m just engaging in some constructive debate. You appear to be saying that Maori have some genetic disposition to violence, shades of Belich’s ‘red Maori’ trope. Is that really your position, that we can’t do anything about it, except, of course, lock the offenders away?

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  120. Fletch (6,295 comments) says:

    The Associated Press has issued a correction of their “septic tank” story…

    DUBLIN (AP) — In stories published June 3 and June 8 about young children buried in unmarked graves after dying at a former Irish orphanage for the children of unwed mothers, The Associated Press incorrectly reported that the children had not received Roman Catholic baptisms; documents show that many children at the orphanage were baptized. The AP also incorrectly reported that Catholic teaching at the time was to deny baptism and Christian burial to the children of unwed mothers; although that may have occurred in practice at times it was not church teaching. In addition, in the June 3 story, the AP quoted a researcher who said she believed that most of the remains of children who died there were interred in a disused septic tank; the researcher has since clarified that without excavation and forensic analysis it is impossible to know how many sets of remains the tank contains, if any. The June 3 story also contained an incorrect reference to the year that the orphanage opened; it was 1925, not 1926.

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  121. big bruv (13,720 comments) says:

    Labour have said they are delaying the release of their party list because of this weeks Donghua Liu revelations.

    I simply don’t buy this. I suspect that the caucus has notified the president of the Labour party that there may well be a leadership challenge this week and that to release the party list might be a tad premature.

    It is simply not credible to claim that Donghua Liu is the reason for this delay, Labour are desperate to change the narrative, desperate to get the attention off its corrupt image, the release of the party list would have taken some of the heat off Cuntliffe.

    I would wager that the numbers are being run, that there are some very nervous people inside the Labour party and that Cuntliffe may well be ousted as leader by the end of the week.

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  122. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    No No Mikey…You accused me of falsely representing what Moon as said about Maori as a people becoming paranoic if not psychotic because of the constant fear of violence…do you have a copy, or do I need to go and find mine and give you some chapter references for that conclusion?

    When I called you on Moon’s hypothesis, you moved the goal posts…

    What’s a “trope”>?? This appears to be a word unknown to the editors of my Concise Oxford

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  123. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    http://www.nzgeographic.co.nz/archives/issue-95/darwin

    Mr Darwin’s observations of early Maori kind of destroy Mikey’s theories that ‘Colonialism’ is always to blame…

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  124. Griff (7,517 comments) says:

    An actual hard copy dictionary how quaint DG
    The concise oxford is obsolete and no longer being published

    Trope (literature) – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope_(literature)
    A literary trope is the use of figurative language – via word, phrase, or even an image – for artistic effect such as using a figure of speech. The word trope has …
    ‎Fantasy tropes – ‎TV Tropes – ‎Literary topos – ‎Antanaclasis
    Trope – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope
    Trope or tropes may refer to: Trope (literature), the use of figurative language in literature; Trope (mathematics), an archaic geometry term for a tangent line or …
    ‎Trope (literature) – ‎TV Tropes – ‎Trope (philosophy) – ‎Trope (music)
    Trope – Merriam-Webster Online
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trope
    a word, phrase, or image used in a new and different way in order to create an artistic effect. Full Definition of TROPE. 1. a

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  125. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    But to answer your question Mikey, yes, I think there is probably a very large component of genetics behind the fact that Maori are many times overrepresented in our prison population…14% or so of the population, 60+% of the prison population..

    Greg Newbold has made the point that if we removed Maori from the population, our rate of offending – and our rate of imprisonment – would be a fraction of what it is…That is a terribly un PC conclusion, but it is one Newbold is on record as making, and sustaining over many years.

    This also of course has implications for the “lets all be like Norway” brigade…Prisons like motels where the guards and prisoners address each other by their first names…Quite apart from the fact that this has been tried here before, there are no Maori in Norway, and it is in fact one of the most homogenous populations in Europe…unlike its neighbour Sweden which has been a haven for refugees since the Vietnam war, and now has serious problems with a vocal and increasingly violent Muslim minority…but that’s a whole other story…

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  126. OneTrack (3,020 comments) says:

    bb – “Labour have said they are delaying the release of their party list because of this weeks Donghua Liu revelations.”

    But, but, David Cunliffe himself said that the Liu issue is nothing, possibly a minor accounting issue. He wouldn’t make …. up,would he?

    Or, is the problem that their internal polling is now telling them that they are so low, that in order to meet the ideological requirements of the #manban, Jacinda is now #1 on the Labour list and Cunliffe himself is #13?

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  127. Griff (7,517 comments) says:

    Fuck if we remove Maori we would go back to near the top of the oecd rankings in nearly everything.

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  128. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    So David, I understand you have children with your Tongan wife? Will you expect them to fulfill thier genetic heritage and go to jail too?

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  129. big bruv (13,720 comments) says:

    Griff

    I think it was John Banks who said that if you removed Maori crime then NZ is the safest place in the world to live.

    It remains to this very day a statement of fact.

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  130. big bruv (13,720 comments) says:

    mikenmild

    Once again you show your ignorance. Whilst Murri kids are the most in danger from their parents it is also a statistical fact that PI kids are the safest.

    When the new broke of the murder of the Henderson shopkeeper I made the statement at the time that the scum who killed the shopkeeper would be

    1. Maori

    2. Gang related.

    Somebody (I cannot remember who) said that they thought it would be Maori or PI, my reply was that I would have been shocked if it was PI kids.

    It turns out that I was right.

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  131. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    BB
    It was David who brought up the Tongan murder rate. I just wondered how he saw that playing out in his own family…

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  132. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ big bruv (12,771 comments) says:
    June 22nd, 2014 at 6:51 pm

    Considering that there is not one person who is 100% Maori living in New Zealand, then how can you confirm that it is the Maori part of their heritage that is causing the violence? The one thing most of our violent criminals have in common, is some degree of European heritage!!

    In two days time it is the 700th Anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn. Have you ever read the accounts of the violence of that battle? Queen Elizabeth I was recorded as having people killed so she could drink their blood – which they presume made her feel better because she was suffering from iron deficiency. During the second world war, extreme violence and inhumane practices, including torture was carried out by – WHITE people.

    It appears to me that Europeans, and in fact most races have a propensity to violence. It is innate in the human species. That violence is recorded in varying extremes depending on the social conditions at the time.

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  133. Dom Knots (155 comments) says:

    Dear god. The lead topic on tv one’s ‘Sunday’ program is the wife of some reporters boring alcoholism. poor me, poor me, poor me – oh pour me a drink. Is this really the best they can do.

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  134. Manolo (13,580 comments) says:

    Is David Bain part-Maori? :-)

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  135. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    Have you been at the Cooking Sherry again Judith?

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  136. OneTrack (3,020 comments) says:

    Dom Knots – I saw who it was and changed the channel.

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  137. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    ‘Queen Elizabeth I was recorded as having people killed so she could drink their blood’
    LOL – you quite sure about that, Judith?

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  138. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    Dom Knots I just had a look at Sunday- Some lefty slanted article which you just know is going to lead towards a conclusion from some ‘Academic’ that “We need to double the price of booze”!
    Fuck the wowsers! I wish I could drink more often…(Alas I am too busy working hard and paying my taxes to support New Zealand’s feral pothead underclass)

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  139. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    Judith has her wires crossed a little. I think she means-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory

    As opposed to Elizabeth 1..

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  140. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    And Bannockburn might have been a bit before Elizabeth’s time- Go have a wee lie down Judith…

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  141. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Sorry yes meant Elizabeth one,and of course it wasn’t at the same time as Bannockburn, idiot. They were examples of violence etc. Nice to see you still I obsess over brain. Poor thing, don’t have the ability to think beyond one topic.

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  142. Longknives (4,690 comments) says:

    Keep going dear- This is priceless!

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  143. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Sorry sitting with a two year old on my knee so typing is restricted, but either way you need to be sure your own heritage is perfect before you pick on the habits of others, especially when those others share some of your heritage.

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  144. nasska (11,277 comments) says:

    Out in the Wild West, Jesse James’s gang forces a train to stop, and
    Jesse climbs on board. He bursts into a passenger car, pulls out his
    guns, and fires. Blam! Blam!
    “All right!” he yells. “I’m going to screw all the men and kill all the
    woman!”

    Blam! Blam!

    “That’s right!” he growls. “I’m going to screw all the men and kill all
    the women!”

    A guy in the front row says, “Uh, Mr. James, I think you’ve got it
    backwards.”

    Suddenly a high pitched man’s voice in the back calls out,
    “Excoose me, but Mr. James is robbing the train!”

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  145. cricko (303 comments) says:

    You ever needed to see what a prat mikenmild really is read the exchanges between
    him and D Garrett above.

    All this prat mikemild does is ask questions. The great “Yes, but?” tactic.
    Wankers like mikenmild can keep that sort of shit up ad nauseum.
    Why would you engage with such a prat other than to mock him ?

    Mikenmild seems to have developed a lifetime experience in that craft.

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  146. JeffW (326 comments) says:

    Re the Maori debate, it seems to me that a contributing factor might be that welfare destroys mana.

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  147. David Garrett (7,110 comments) says:

    Mikey: Back after feeding and seeing my children in bed…That is a perfectly reasonable question.. and the answer is No, I don’t see any “traditional Tongan” traits of violence in my own son…

    There have been times when he as punched others in rugby games, and my response is always “Who punched first?” So long as it is not my Charlie, then I am OK about him hitting back…the bottom line – I hope – is that he understands that being the first to resort to violence is a very bad thing…but responding in kind is OK…Thus far that seems to be working…He is a boy who protects the weak at school, and looks after the new kids…The fact that he is about twice the size of his peers perhaps makes that “mediator/regulator” role easier…thus far at least, it appears the values his Dad is teaching him is overcoming anything else…time will tell I guess…

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  148. mike tan (478 comments) says:

    David,

    With respect, I think the “hitting back is ok” strategy could lead to problems for your son, given the legal system will only tolerate it in a case of self defense. Perhaps it is wiser to stress that violence is only okay in a situation of self defense

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  149. cricko (303 comments) says:

    JeffW
    Great point.
    And when you consider that the three cornerstones of Maori culture are mana, tapu and utu,
    welfare (aimed at Maori in particular) fucks them up more than any other New Zealanders.

    Either option leaves them with zero mana.

    Give them free money because they are just poor harddoneby Maori. or
    We are just hard done by Maori, we deserve free money.

    Not going to help.

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  150. cricko (303 comments) says:

    mike tan
    isn’t that exactly what Garrett said ?
    Duh!

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  151. Reid (16,290 comments) says:

    People who think a person’s race is a causal factor in an individual act like do I commit a crime or do I save someone from drowning or anything else, seem to me, to be a bit mental.

    I mean, it’s not rocket science, is it. I didn’t become a criminal because I had loving parents who gave enough of a shit about me they sacrificed themselves to give me and my siblings a good education plus they didn’t beat the hell out of me and that’s basically more or less the upbringing that most people who aren’t criminals had and basically more or less the opposite of the upbringing that most people who are criminals had. Right?

    Chinese, African, European, Maori, who cares. You apply that formula to them and you get the same outcome. Don’t you.

    Sure, there are outliers on both sides, crims who had a loving upbringing and good citizens who had the hell beaten out of them but in general, the above is the formula. Isn’t it.

    Like I said, not rocket science.

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  152. mike tan (478 comments) says:

    Maybe i just read it incorrectly. But i interpreted him as saying that once the first punch is thrown, hitting back is fair game, this isn’t the same thing as self defense (e.g. the instigator could have started the fight but the threat could be neutralized for whatever reason, which would lead to a bad situation if the kid fought back anyway).

    I understand the point of view that you dish what you receive, but out of purely selfish reasons, i would instruct my own to avoid violence at all possible costs (except self defense), given how easy it is for something serious to happen (like the other guy falls down and cracks his skull) which could lead to serious trouble for my kid.

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  153. cricko (303 comments) says:

    mike
    you read it correctly.
    Hard for someone with your experience to understand.
    Your example is pure bullshit.

    The bullshit promoted by your lecturer wont pass the bullshit sniff test here.

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  154. mike tan (478 comments) says:

    You disagree that a single punch can by chance lead to an outcome where the other guy is seriously damaged, and this has serious legal repercussions?

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  155. Harriet (4,853 comments) says:

    ‘…..Sure, there are outliers on both sides, crims who had a loving upbringing and good citizens who had the hell beaten out of them but in general, the above is the formula. Isn’t it…..”

    Reid, there was an old time safe cracker in the 80’s in ch-ch who was interviewed by the Press, he also happened to be Maori. He said he didn’t have the best of upbringings ect ect but he did say something like this, which has always stuck in my mind:

    “Society may take you to the door of the building you want to rob, but it is you who decides to go in.”

    I agree with him where most crime is concerned.

    I also agree with what you have said, and if i can add : the biggest indicator of crime is a fatherless neighbourhood.

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  156. cricko (303 comments) says:

    mike @ 9.16
    No. I don’t disagree with that.
    But WTF has that got to do with the subject at hand ?

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  157. mike tan (478 comments) says:

    Do you understand that there is a difference between “once the first punch is thrown, it is completely fine to hit back” and what the law accepts as a legitimate use of force in self defense?.

    Reflecting, David is well aware of this and i likely misinterpreted what was written (in which case, i apologize to you David).

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  158. Harriet (4,853 comments) says:

    mike tan#

    Read you comment somewhere about khan academy ect. I use some maths sites and totaly agree with you in that education should also be framed around internet sites, webineers, ect and not ‘soley around one teacher’. Discrete maths was taught at high school level in the former USSR and I understand that they still do so along with other former eastern block countries – as it applys to computing, finance, statistics, economics, markets, social science ect. Whereas calculus mostly applys to engineering – for a manufacturing based economy. As I understand it they don’t currently teach discrete maths in NZ schools – but still teach calculus.

    With the internet – kids could then be given the choice of either – based upon the choice of industry that they want to enter into.

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  159. cricko (303 comments) says:

    hey mike tan
    get real.
    Nobody is saying that if someone slaps you in the face that it is OK to blow them away with
    an AK47.
    That is a bullshit construct you have promulgated.
    Your argument is…..what ?

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  160. mike tan (478 comments) says:

    Cricko,

    I do not know where you are getting this intentional use of disproportionate force scenario from, given you agreed to what i said here:

    “You disagree that a single punch can by chance lead to an outcome where the other guy is seriously damaged, and this has serious legal repercussions?”

    Note where i say “by chance”.

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  161. mike tan (478 comments) says:

    Harriet,

    I am glad you enjoy using those types of sites, I do too. I think it is the future of learning, i note that they also tap into the competitive nature of children with stuff like medals, achievement goals etc. Because the child is competing with the computer (and therefore him or herself) you also remove the negative aspect of some children being looked at as winners, and others losers. You also remove the risk of exposing the child to bullying and allow the child to learn at his or her own pace, as opposed to the pace being dictated by class averages/other factors. It is also more “fun” in the sense that lots of graphics are used, it is quite interactive and some of the internet based tutors take a “making it interesting” approach to their commentary. I would like to see an approach that is more inclusive of technology (which still leaves an important role for human direction). It is interesting to look at the IP from this perspective, as this is arguably a conflict of their platform, on one hand you have the internet revolutionizing teaching, and on the other you have it potentially taking jobs away from teachers, which would be unpopular with the left.

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  162. cricko (303 comments) says:

    mike
    note where I ask, “How many faries can dance on the head of a pin ?”

    Jeez mate, stating what you assume to be the point of the opponents argument and then
    refuting that wrong assumption is just friken pathetic.

    Is that a tactic that your lecturer taught you ?

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  163. mike tan (478 comments) says:

    Cricko,

    I get the interpretation that you aren’t interested in engaging given that i have acknowledged that i may have misinterpreted the text above.

    Cheers

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  164. cricko (303 comments) says:

    Jeez, oh dear,
    Just read mike tan @9.50

    What utter P.C. puke. And some idiot even gave it a thumbs up.
    Go figure.

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  165. Harriet (4,853 comments) says:

    Mike tan#

    I don’t think it would take jobs away as the teacher would still be needed to direct and oversee 30 kids.

    “……internet based tutors take a “making it interesting” approach to their commentary. I would like to see an approach that is more inclusive of technology (which still leaves an important role for human direction)…..”

    Yep. I believe that kids who have an idea of what industry/profession they want to enter into can then base all their education around that industry/profession. And it’s object orientated learning, where kids who want to ‘be a mechanic, police, nurse, accountant’ can then start to go down that path from an earlier age, or at the least get a more broader or deeper understanding of their choosen field at an earlier age.

    Kids need to use webineers ect to learn what they are already currently being taught; an area of maths for example could be taught from a physics or finance point of view rather than the single example that a ‘physical teacher’ would give. Some kids like physics others like finance.

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  166. Harriet (4,853 comments) says:

    Mike, cricko is usually ok, but sometimes he turns up drunk. That used to happen under his old name – Beryl.

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  167. mike tan (478 comments) says:

    Harriet,

    I upticked out of general agreement, but i think that the teaching force could potentially become much slimmer, because the internet based learning takes up so much of the labor involved in teaching, the content and all the related expenses is already there, only a directive, supplementary role would be required. The individualized nature of the learning may even get to a point where it is no longer necessary to have a daily meeting place to learn together. This brings with it its own set of ethical questions, for example, is school only about learning the curriculum? How valuable is the social element (do the risks outweigh the positives?) etc

    Assuming that it does get to a spot where the classroom is not needed anymore, this would free up a lot of capital expenditure which could be redirected into the new system of assistance rather than production.

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  168. cricko (303 comments) says:

    Harriet,

    and when unable to attack the argument, attack the messenger.

    What a truley pathetic article you are.

    Goodnight, and good luck to your family.

    PS. mike tan has a brain, but he needs morons like you springing to his defence like he needs a hole
    in his head.

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  169. Gulag1917 (878 comments) says:

    Iraq was invaded for the sake of “Israel and oil.”
    Dick Cheney

    “it’s more dangerous being America’s ally than its enemy.”
    Henry Kissinger

    The Iraq War cost over $1 trillion – financed by loans from China and Japan.

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  170. Northland Wahine (667 comments) says:

    Up early and skimming thru last night posts and having a wee chuckle…

    I’m the first to advocate that Maori has to step up and acknowledge the negative stats where we are over represented and do something positive to turn them around.

    However here’s something so that do many choose not to acknowledge when dismissing the whole Maori race. What has changed from 50 years ago when they think Maori were happy? Some say full employment…some say there wasn’t any benefits back then. I believe both play a huge part to our negative stats. Realistically we are better educated now because 50 years ago we left school to work in factories, railway, forestry and roadworks en mass. But the white elephant in the room is… We are less Maori blooded than we were 50 years ago. I don’t believe that so called Maori warrior gene is that strong that it over dominates our white peaceful blood (she says with tongue so firmly in her cheek.)

    I saw the same sense of entitlement in the UK 10 years ago amongst the white Europeans there who lived in slums, on benefits and bugger all employment. Violence towards each other was and is high, just like we see with Maori.

    And I doubt very few acknowledge the common denominator…

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  171. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I’m not sure that gets us much closer to an answer. You are basically saying that welfare entitlements breed crime. If we were to accept that as a premise, then surely the next question to follow is why Maori are disproportionately represented on the welfare rolls?

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  172. Griff (7,517 comments) says:

    CULTURE
    Mike and no its not the pre contact one its a bastardized one that has evolved since
    Entitlement.
    You honkeys owe us
    Insulated
    We are separate Maori first
    Violence
    We are warriors violence is something to be proud of.
    Irresponsibility
    Act indiscriminately the “government” not us pays .

    Encouraging them, as many of their leaders do. to act under these cultural imperatives reenforces the decline of Maori into the festering crap lives they live and the damage they inflict on us as a society.

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  173. Northland Wahine (667 comments) says:

    Better educated doesn’t equate to better skilled for employment and times have changed so have to adapt to this. Our family dynamics have changed partially due to unemployment, and where as once upon a time, if your girl got hapu, you embraced that child with open arms, not a thought given to the cost. Now? Get her down to winz and go on the bene. Are our girls more promiscuous than others? I really don’t think so, probably less careful…

    Seriously Mike, I see lots of things we can do differently but all need to be tackled, not just one.

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