Hide on Cunliffe

June 1st, 2014 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

The experiment has failed. Eight months into his leadership Labour is polling below what it was under Phil Goff and David Shearer.

The election is less than four months away.

The danger for Labour is that its poor polling will collapse its vote, as happened to National in 2002. Its low polling became a self-fulfilling and accelerating prophecy. Polls matter.

Labour’s unimpressive showing may well cause even more votes to drain across to the Greens and New Zealand First. …

Cunliffe has an added burden. His caucus didn’t want him. He was thrust on it by party members and the unions. That wouldn’t matter if he were succeeding. But he isn’t. There will be a lot of “I told you so” going on. The lack of caucus support makes a lonely job even lonelier.

And yet it remains a tight race. Labour could poll badly but still put a government together, with considerable concessions.

The Green’s Metiria Turei and Russel Norman would be deputy prime ministers and would dominate policy-making.

Winston Peters would be kingmaker and would demand his pound of flesh.

Hone Harawira would be Minister of Maori Affairs. The Internet Party would be in government being dictated to by Kim Dotcom.

A Labour-led Government with Labour on just 30% of the vote would be a very weak unstable Government. They would be just 60% or so of the entire Government.

It comes back to the polls. They put Cunliffe on the back foot and Key on the front. Cunliffe is now desperate. He needs a lift.

“I just need to push the polls up a bit. I need to change the story … hmmm. Immigration. That always works for Winston. I’ll give that a shot. I will dress it up as housing policy. The party’s woolly woofters will be upset. But what the hell? I’ve got nothing to lose.” It’s called dog-whistle politics. Sadly for Cunliffe, the only ones who heard it were Labour activists.

Getting desperate indeed.

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127 Responses to “Hide on Cunliffe”

  1. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    Cunliffe is carrying so much left wing baggage now.

    Communist dinosaurs like McCarten, Harre, Harawira and Corkery are going to win the left so many votes. :)

    The main reason now for supporting today’s far left National Party is that the opposition are just so unbelievably worse.

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  2. Viking2 (11,576 comments) says:

    Listening very carefully to Harre this morning and here is the difference.
    The IP has 20 or so individuals and 3000 or so members who are fired up, enthusiastic about their goal.
    They are this generation and regardless of how we feel, they are want it now types. They are the reincarnation of how the old parties used to be with a 2015 focus. Look back to Labour in Savages time.
    The rest are tired, like Cunnlife and Peters just using the same old worn out processes and innuendo to solicit votes.
    The danger IMHO opinion is that the Greens and IP and Mana will be strong enough to relegate Labour to being less than the Greens Group and which is the Greens goal. Norman basically said as much this morning and with the current mess that is Labour, its going to be.

    It would be ironical and not at all inconceivable that Labour and the Nats best choice will be to be the next Govt. together
    Said this before.

    The Nats. just cannot get over their right to rule attitude and their move to join the left by implementing all the left policies so we should expect Key and Co. to pick up some of the IP policy and include it in their manifesto. Watch and see.

    The Nats. don’t have a bunch of highly skilled young irreverent people as their new generation and neither do ACT.
    That is and has been Act’s downfall for several elections, they have the money but no passion.
    The Nats have debating majors but no passion and put up life sitters just like Labour.
    The last Nats. who had passion like is needed that I can name are Tony Ryall and Simon Power. Ryall has got tired of waiting to fulfill his passion and the Nat. establishment prevailed over Power. Both men lost to the Nats. detriment.

    This election should have been led by those two.

    English is a has been and not that good which is why Normans economic policy will appeal to many for despite the vociferous on this blog trying to tell the rest of us that everything is great and rosy for people, that just is not the case. And its no use blaming the lower levels of society for their station in life. We need them just like we need you our who else is going to wipe your bum when you can’t. ( If you think hard about that its a great leveler if you have to have it done).

    I guess you could compare the majors this way.
    Look at the Googles of this world and the people they employ and the passion which goes with that employment and then compare that to accounting companies of this world.
    Exciting as compared with staid, conservative.
    Ip v’s the Nats.

    Doesn’t make the Nats exciting does it. doesn’t create change.

    P.S. I think that NZ first will disappear this time so don’t count on Winston. He is once again harassing the police over Horan.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11265426

    Sad old man.

    The Nats. should be worried.

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  3. Viking2 (11,576 comments) says:

    Question.

    Has NZ First any money to fight the election with?

    Answer.
    doubtful.

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  4. Viking2 (11,576 comments) says:

    Here is what passion does.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11265642

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  5. Reid (16,638 comments) says:

    It would be ironical and not at all inconceivable that Labour and the Nats best choice will be to be the next Govt. together

    Yeah that’s always been the case V2. My Dutch boss told me back in the 1990’s that Holland had MMP and the only time it ever worked well was when precisely that happened, once. Never forget MMP was designed for post-WWII Germany specifically to prevent anything radical like you know who from aver arising again. This fact, that it works structurally to prevent such an alliance of the centre, is precisely why its a lousy, useless system. Key did the country a tremendous disservice when he refused to engage in debate on alternates during the last referendum on it, and it was then that I realised he was just like all the others – venal, self-serving and willing to betray the country to serve his own interests. He didn’t do it I suspect because he didn’t want to mortally wound his own minor parties, that’s the only possible reason he could have had. But it was quite obvious at the time, when as we approached the election date, not one party was encouraging the debate, until the very end, when they had a faux series of discussions, specifically aimed so the reef-fish would believe the politicians had played a straight bat on OUR, not their, democracy.

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  6. CharlieBrown (1,028 comments) says:

    Red- can you see the opposition moving back into the center left with national crowding that space? I don’t, so the only way the left will get back in is when the 3 term blues hits national and a sheep could run for labour and get in. I would rather get it over with now than wait another 3 years for the inevitable. Anyway, there is nothing like an economic disaster to implement policies to set things right. Something the far left nats will never do. Also if the left get in with a nightmarish co-alition they will be very unpopular and won’t last the term, if they do in 3 years time it won’t be the same story.

    I’m right wing, but i’m voting for dot com.

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  7. Jack5 (5,167 comments) says:

    MMP – the debate about it never ends. Reid posted at 11.07:

    Never forget MMP was designed for post-WWII Germany specifically to prevent anything radical like you know who from aver arising again.

    The West Germans themselves for their 1949 constitution amended Germany’s pre-war proportional representation system, which was virtually MMP without local electorates. The West Germans did this chiefly by adding electorates to the party vote system and by imposing a 5 per cent threshold, which NZ now seems hot to eliminate in its own MMP. The idea of the threshold seems to have been to eliminate the plethora of tiny parties, which helped create the chaos in which the Nazis took over.

    If this year’s general election gives us a Labour-Greens-NZ First-Mana Dotcom coalition government it will surely convincingly prove to New Zealanders that MMP is a crap electoral system.

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  8. deadrightkev (537 comments) says:

    “It would be ironical and not at all inconceivable that Labour and the Nats best choice will be to be the next Govt. together”

    So that combines two socialist parties with no principles that do not know what they stand for into one big socialist party. Then what?

    The only upside I can see is it would potentially create a revolution of some sort as power loves a vacuum. It will be filled on the right.

    It might force real National voters that are too empathetic to vote right into doing just that instead of just voting for the nice smiling Mr Key.

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  9. Tauhei Notts (1,749 comments) says:

    Viking2 at 10.42.
    A thoughtful well written post.
    But I still think you are wrong. Although there is that passion, it is restricted to the beltway of the party. The young people I deal with will not have a bar of them. Also, that is why I am against internet voting; the people who are too damned lazy to go to a polling booth; well, our country would be better off without their votes. And, I believe, a lot of those people would vote for the internet party.
    So, one of us is wrong. I wonder if it is me!

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  10. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    I’m right wing, but i’m voting for dot com.

    You don’t deserve democracy.

    Oh, we will just give them 3 years? What could they do in that time?

    Lets see. Institute policies that will set NZ back 20 years? And at the same time make it so that any attempts by National to remove those stupid policies leads to their own demise 3 years later.

    You like interest free student loans? WFF? Thats what happened when LABOUR had power in the coalition. What about when the GIMPs have the power?

    At best you will get policies that are insane by Labour standards!

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  11. CharlieBrown (1,028 comments) says:

    Kimble – you just don’t get it. If they are going to get in, then better now than in 3 years time. I’d rather have an unpopular trainwreck government that gets voted out promptly (thats if they last long enough to do so) now than have a popular trainwreck government that could last 2 or 3 terms. Typical national supporter with no view to the longer term.

    In the mean time, the longer john key stays as pm the longer we have national pushing NZ even further left and shifting the political equilibrium leftward.

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  12. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    “A democracy can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury.”

    With the ‘Greens’, Mana and the IP in government we will reach a point of no return…….

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  13. Manolo (14,082 comments) says:

    The smug and arrogant Silent T as PM? Just the thought is unbearable.

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  14. Longknives (4,889 comments) says:

    “I’m right wing, but i’m voting for dot com.”

    What the fuck??

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  15. CharlieBrown (1,028 comments) says:

    If you’re right wing then why the fuck would you vote for national?

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  16. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    Kimble – you just don’t get it.

    No, I understand what you are saying perfectly.

    But its stupid.

    A bad government can do more harm in one term than a good government can fix in four.

    National is seeming Left because the fucking electorate is Left. Get it? Its called political fucking reality.

    And it’s not as if it is a famous trait of the Left to quickly admit their mistakes and reverse course at the first opportunity. This horribly awful government you are HOPING FOR is unlikely to be a one-termer.

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  17. Longknives (4,889 comments) says:

    “Hone Harawira would be Minister of Maori Affairs”

    A Minister of Maori Affairs who rambles on about ‘Honkeys’ and ‘White Mother-Fuckers’..that’s a great step forward for race relations in this country!

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  18. gravedodger (1,573 comments) says:

    @ CharlieBrown 11 14.
    You are an oxymoron and you just dropped your cylinder.

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  19. CharlieBrown (1,028 comments) says:

    Kimble – Roger douglas fixed up the biggest economic mess NZ ever experienced in less than 2 terms. John Key has screwed NZ over big time, he has said he is keen on 4 terms, imagine what NZ will look like after 7 terms of socialism (maybe more if a further left party gets into government after that)? Its not an NZ I want to see.

    Do you seriously think that a nightmarish coalition of the left will be popular when National get more than 45% of the vote and sit in opposition? Can you seriously say you believe they will last longer than a term? Voting for the internet party is a strategic decision.

    NZ needs John Key out of government if it wants to succeed.

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  20. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    If you’re right wing then why the fuck would you vote for national?

    Because you don’t like Left wing policies.

    For someone so confident in their ability to manufacture a political disaster in NZ, you are showing a ridiculous level of political naivety.

    How does a centre-Right party get centre-Right policies through in a LEFT WING country? Well, when the Left heads into the far Left territory, you pick up their centrist and centre-left votes and acquire a MANDATE to make changes.

    You certain as fuck do not go far Right and assume that the left wing electorate will magically “come to their senses”.

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  21. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    Roger douglas fixed up the biggest economic mess NZ ever experienced in less than 2 terms.

    Yep, he was a famous champion of right-wing ideals from the National party.

    Oh WAIT. He wasnt in the National Party, was he? He did those things when the ALTERNATIVE party was National.

    And how did the Labour party get into power? With the support of the centre-Left.

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  22. CharlieBrown (1,028 comments) says:

    Kimble – Did you reed KiwiInAmerica’s piece on the new labour party a few weeks ago. Labour stepping to the right will never happen again.

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  23. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    Labour stepping to the right will never happen again.

    So what?

    You think that Labour going lefter means National can go righter?

    That would just mean that the centre votes, the ones that provide a mandate, will still choose one or the other. They will just see both parties moving away from them at equal speed. That makes the a Labour led government no less likely, but far more damaging.

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  24. smttc (763 comments) says:

    CharlieBrown, your stupid voting strategy is premised on the idea that once the left have fucked over the country and the economy enough the sheeple will vote for right wing policies.

    Wrong.

    Look at Australia where the people are moaning like fuck as the Liberal Party go about trying to rectify things over there.

    Stupid people will always vote themselves money if they are offered the opportunity.

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  25. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    Charlie Brown- I’ve written on what I think about a Communist Govt bringing some good to NZ in that it should have the effect of scaring the national political psyche so badly it would move out of the far left sector of the spectrum it is apparently stuck in now.

    John Key is arguably the worst PM NZ has ever had, and definitely the worst National Party leader we have ever had. If some far left foreign govt (say the Chicoms for example) had wanted to plant a Manchurian Candidate here they could not have done any better than John Key.

    The reason Key is so bad is that he has convinced the same Nat Party voters who were so violently opposed to Klark to vote today for her policies. Or for even more socialist policies. And because he has done it so subtly, they don’t even know it.

    Helen Key has taken this country and the National Party so far left it will take a miracle to escape. Key’s supporters are mindless gape jawed fools aiding Key in destroying this country. He has to go and the National Party has to go too for there to be any real change in our circumstances.

    So if the left win, and the voters endure a few terms of real communist govt, then maybe the Nats will find a real leader and reform as the Conservative party they were founded as.

    After the idiot NZ voters have learnt the hard way, they will dump the Commies, bring back the reformed Nats and keep them in power for a long time.

    As unpleasant as some see it, that may be the only way out of this mess.

    And Helen Key is to blame for it all.

    http://truebluenz.com/2014/04/19/benefits-a-communist-govt-might-bring-to-nzs-far-left-political-spectrum/

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  26. CharlieBrown (1,028 comments) says:

    Kimble – don’t be such a deluded brown-nosing john key lover. The only party that can fix this mess is National, but that won’t happen under john key. The left wing will get in eventually – that is as sure as the sun will shine in the morning. The question is how long will they stay in. History shows that after 3 terms a government usually gets voted out and at the next election they do poorly as they regroup.

    If national don’t get voted out now, they will likely get voted out next election, and they will probably do poorly, they will be very unpopular (which they aren’t at the moment), and it will give the left free reign to do as they please. They will probably implement the same policies they have now but they won’t have to worry about getting voted out as the opposition will be still be immensely unpopular. In the mean time, John Key will still be dragging NZ to the left in his 3rd term forcing labour even more leftward (or increasing the green vote).

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  27. CharlieBrown (1,028 comments) says:

    smttc – if the Australian labour party get in next election I doubt they will reverse every one of Abbots policies, and I doubt they will be as left wing as they were under rudd/gillard. So the net result is Australia has moved further to the right, even though the liberals were a one term government. That to me is a successful result. Success isn’t measured by how long it takes to do your job, it is measured on what you actually achieve. But the Nat-tards don’t seam to get that, John Key has done less in 6 years than what Abbott has done in a year.

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  28. smttc (763 comments) says:

    No Shorten will be able to campaign on the basis he will undo the LP’s budget policies because it seems the electorate do not like the medicine they have been asked to swallow.

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  29. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    The worst thing John Key has done is seduce the idiots who swoon over him into thinking left wing policies are right wing policies.

    This is a transformation that will take decades to undo and really there was no need for it to ever have happened.

    Key put his selfish and childish need to be a popular leader above the interests of the country.

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  30. Viking2 (11,576 comments) says:

    smttc; old saying. “Little by little you can get used to anything.”
    that’s politics and its why Abbott will go back because by the next election Aussies will have grown used to the changes. And they have more to come looking at their newspapers last night.

    Same here. Key has instilled creeping socialism on us on the basis that in little increments we won’t notice.
    Even DPF was going apeshit the other day.

    When first voted in Key had the chance to turn the ship around but then the socialists and Catholics in power got at him and its been downhill since. Sad really that we Kiwi’s who can and should help themselves are now forever in the Govt.’s tentacles. Either persuasion.

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  31. CharlieBrown (1,028 comments) says:

    Here are our options at election time:

    Vote National: and get 3 years of creeping socialism followed by 6 + years of a neo-communist government that shits on individual liberties and ruins the economy.

    Vote for the left: get 3 or less years of a neo-communist government that falls apart.

    Either result will result in austerity measures to fix up the mess, and will hopefully return a center right government – maybe a full liberal right government if we’re lucky. The decision is, how long do we want to wait for things to come right?

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  32. Warren Murray (314 comments) says:

    The notion that Labour will be propelled into the arms of National is an interesting one. It reminds me of the struggle between the Liberals and Reform in the early 20th century. The Liberals actually formed a government with Labour’s support for a term to oust Reform, but it didn’t last as Labour ate into the Liberals support base. Labour was cancer to the Liberals. The Liberals and Reform eventually merged.

    I think modern day Labour faces a dilemma. Its MPs see their leftist support partners as a major threat and despite having a shared philosophy are actually fighting for survival. With there being so many long serving Labour MPs, they have considerable experience of doing what must be done to survive. But while the Greens and IMP pose a threat, Labour doesn’t share any philosophical common ground with National. If history is to repeat, we have to endure a term of Labour, Greens, IMP, etc.

    Some have opined that one term will be all that is needed for the country to shut the door on the Greens and the extreme left agenda forever. I think that is a big gamble. If KDC wins in any form, the left will see it as an endorsement of its electoral bribery strategies and they will turn the taps on so hard, we will see large scale wealth redistributive policies to rival Thailand.

    The other point about internet voting – polling stations are so accessible, not to mention advance voting, if you cant vote on the
    day, the arguments for internet voting seem to pander to the apathetic. Local government voting is arguably easier with postal voting, but as the turnout is steadily declining, why would internet voting be any better? Someone once said when it costs nothing, people treat it as being worthless, when you have to pay for it, it has a value and is treated with greater respect. Having to make a trip to the local polling station, which for most people is a short walk away, is a very small price IMO.

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  33. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    To those complaining about MMP-

    NATIONAL BROUGHT IT IN.

    Then a while ago when we had the referendum, did we hear JK and the Nats taking any strong anti MMP position?

    NO WE DID NOT.

    The damn cowards were too timid to take a stand against the most destructive change in govt NZ has ever seen.

    Just another example of Nationals many betrayals, the ones that their mindless supporters have aided them in accomplishing.

    BTW, many on the panel that pushed MMP on this country were communists, and National under the useless Bolger were even too stupid to see the significance of that.

    The Nationals and the UK Conservatives and the US Republicans have been infiltrated by the left and taken over, and the mindless goons who continue to support them are as much to blame for the destruction of democracy and our slide into a one party state as the MPs in those perverted and turned about parties are.

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  34. Sir Cullen's Sidekick (895 comments) says:

    Yeah neh…Cunliffe is just warming up according to Mike Fat Tony Williams on “The Nation” today. He has more time. So don’t worry uncle Hide.

    With Greens set to announce a carbon tax to save the world, I suppose Kiwis should be very happy. After all we voted for tax increases in the 1999 election. Get ready for a 10% carbon tax on all utilities.

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  35. James Stephenson (2,234 comments) says:

    @CharlieB

    3) Vote ACT.
    It’s been quite clear that JK would like to implement some decent Right policy, he’s just scared to spend his own political capital on it. Even with a single MP this term, we got Charter Schools because ACT could cop the “blame”, what if we got 3 or 4 next time?

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  36. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    ACT are just National Party lick spittles and yet another gang of progressives. Vote ACT and you’re voting for more of the same. Upheaval is what is necessary.

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  37. deadrightkev (537 comments) says:

    Redbaiter 12:15

    I agree with you and so do many other thinking voters who can see past the nice Mr Key. Some of them farmers that used to vote National. Some still do only because Act is so incredibly hopeless at organising and attracting quality candidates that they don’t think there is anywhere else to go. Some National regional members have been telling farmers that a vote for Act is a vote for Labour. Trouble is many have tunnel vision so they believe it

    The Conservatives have snatched quite a few members and it will be interesting to see how Colin Craig’s campaign goes this election. He has a very good administrative team and is very organised nationwide with 6000 members and supporters. I suspect Craig will do well with the rubbish choices on offer.

    National gave us MMP and Key again championed it last referendum so people don’t have far to look for blame.

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  38. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    “It’s been quite clear that JK would like to implement some decent Right policy, he’s just scared to spend his own political capital on it.”

    How can you vote for a party after saying that about its leader?? You’re saying that even though you think a man is a coward you’d vote for him?

    National are like the UK Conservatives and the US Republicans rotten to the core and they have to go.

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  39. altiora (279 comments) says:

    I don’t think people should blame Key for failing to get people to vote against MMP. There was simply no groundswell of opinion for changing the system, and arguing against it would have risked the centerist voters, many of whom either like MMP or want it to be given a chance. The only thing that is going to change popular opinion in favour of ditching MMP will be some bad experiences with MMP. Up to now, we really haven’t had any; certainly not at the level of Muldoon winning with fewer votes than Labour. We need an election or two where the major party cannot govern, the opposition refuses to co-operate and there are dodgy dealings. I think we’re coming to that stage now.

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  40. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    “There was simply no groundswell of opinion for changing the system,”

    FFS what is wrong with you people?

    What you say is true, but its true only because there is a huge vacuum where there should be political leadership.

    And that vacuum is called John Key.

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  41. altiora (279 comments) says:

    Redbaiter. John Key is many things, but God he ain’t! The public were not going to vote against MMP because Key told them so. And whether you like it or not, electoral system changes need to be supported by National and Labour, or else our constitutional structure would just become a political football.

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  42. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    I agree with you Redbaiter.

    My daughter and her husband voted National in the last election. They were torn, but decided that National offered better policies for their future as a young family.

    Yesterday she told me neither are going to vote in this election. They are disappointed with Key’s performance, and his ability to be ‘bought’.

    However, they do not like any of the alternatives, and believe that voting for one of them, just to be able to claim they have voted, would be irresponsible.

    She made a good point, that in the past we (her parents) have always claimed that if you don’t vote, you are irresponsible and don’t get an opinion. However, as she stated, what is more irresponsible, to not vote, or to help someone into parliament, that you do not have 100% trust in? Yes, as far as she is concerned you still get to have an opinion – not voting is actioning the opinion that none of them are worthy of the trust a vote suggests.

    I am seriously considering following her lead. I believe the result of this next election will be a joke, no matter who gets in – perhaps being able to say “well don’t blame me – I didn’t support any of them” might just be a good place to be.

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  43. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    “Redbaiter. John Key is many things, but God he ain’t! ”

    No one is asking JK to emulate God.

    Nigel Farage would be enough.

    Unlike Farage, Key has no conviction and no belief in the Conservative founding principles of the National party.. So he has nothing he can sell. He’s a sham.

    That is his problem.

    http://truebluenz.com/2014/05/04/nigel-farage-does-the-alleged-impossible/

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  44. UpandComer (537 comments) says:

    Reading redbaiter is like reading satire, only without a punch line. Seriously red, you’re so far out you come all the way around and may as well be on the standard. Charlie Brown, wtf?. Both of you who’d sacrifice all the geese for their own good need to toddle over to Australia and have a look at a conservative govt with zero political adeptness being unfairly crucified. Criticism of jk from the right are even more silly and stupid then those from the left. You obviously have no idea how hard it actually has been for national to be where it is, or of the powerful changes being led by the govt. 3 more years is really important for the country. Show some respect.

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  45. altiora (279 comments) says:

    @ Redbaiter. The analogy isn’t apt. Farage has all the time in the world and has nothing to lose and everything to gain. Key has everything to lose, and to let New Zealand fall to an extreme Left bloc. As I’ve said many times before, those vocal right wing critics of Key ought to look themselves in the mirror and ask “what exactly am I doing to tangibly and constructively to change New Zealand’s political axis from centre-left to centre-right”.

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  46. Viking2 (11,576 comments) says:

    Tauhei Notts (1,550 comments) says:
    June 1st, 2014 at 11:30 am

    Viking2 at 10.42.
    A thoughtful well written post.
    But I still think you are wrong. Although there is that passion, it is restricted to the beltway of the party. The young people I deal with will not have a bar of them. Also, that is why I am against internet voting; the people who are too damned lazy to go to a polling booth; well, our country would be better off without their votes. And, I believe, a lot of those people would vote for the internet party.
    So, one of us is wrong. I wonder if it is me!

    =====================
    Thank you.

    And the answer is probably yes it’s you.
    People are the sum of all their experiences in life. That’s you, me and all. Some think outside of those experiences but for most they define who they are.

    So, for the young their experiences are with duplicitous politicians, Maori grievances, lack of work and expensive education which they carry as baggage for for a long time.Their other major experience is with this INTERNET thingy. They all interact via social media, they all do banking, working and work on machines etc that are run either by computers, phones, ipads and the Internet. They don’t tend to see their world outside of the influence of the Internet. Its where they learn about the world and others.
    We, the taxpayer fail to educate them about Govt., the true History of NZ,(oh they get sanitized versions that are palpably wrong), or our place in the world, before we begin to educate them about living in the world.

    So they have jaundiced views of political leaders, they have little respect for the way in which politicians behave as its not how they are taught to behave and they are rather disinterested in politics.
    And who can blame them?

    BUT, what the IP will do is get to them via social media etc. KDC is a hero for them. (Just look at the link I posted.) What messages go across will colour the thinking of these kids for a long time.

    I suspect that the Nats. will wakeup eventually as will Labour who, perhaps not this time but next, decide to tap into much better social media people than it has going back. (They were fucking woe full and worse bitter and twisted with their engagement).
    Problem for the Nats. is that they don’t have charisma nor hero status. Continually attacking KDC is totally the wrong strategy as they are attacking a hero and that is a no no. (like it or not KDC is a hero in the new generation eyes and many dislike the Yanks for their bullying behavoir all round the world. )

    So even if you like going down to the polling both arm in arm with the missus cause you can and want to be seen to be doing all the right social things on that day the process is an anachronism in the INTERNET world, where we bank at the touch of a screen, book tickets all round the world at the touch of a screen and even find that missus the same way.
    ————————————–
    “Also, that is why I am against internet voting; the people who are too damned lazy to go to a polling booth; well, our country would be better off without their votes.”
    —————————-
    Its interesting I think, to note that the turnout of young voters is very low. Why someone even thought that we should lower the age to 18 is beyond me as that’s consistent with the number of missing voters. Change it back would be good.
    But having given them the franchise then surely we should make sure they understand what it is about and why they should make an effort.

    Thinking of myself on polling day I am often busy, as is my wife, we haven’t gone and voted together since I don’t know when and although I can guess, I have no idea who or how she votes. So the point is really that INTERNET voting would suit me just fine. Sooner the better actually. ( Just another thing that Nats. have sat on their hands with.)

    Harre made the point about Internet speed this morning citing 8 mbs as what she could get. she is lucky. I have fibre to the cabinet a few hundred yards away and still get only 6.5 from Voda hopeless. Now no gamers or prolific Internet users want things that slow.
    It was also interesting to see that Netflix changed its options and excluded some 30,000 subscribers from NZ all to appease the entertainment barrons and sky city.
    Didn’t work of course for long as Kiwi’s get pissed at that sort of thing and the Internet suppliers soon rearranged their affairs.

    We can guess who most of that 30k users are. ( dime of course. That fellow who makes untold noise about KDC and yet no doubt was throwing his toys out of his cot when his netflix connection was cut. funny really.:lol:)

    Its going to be interesting I reckon. Lots like my Lady will go. I want this student loan thing properly sorted and if voting for Liala Harre is what will do it then I will vote on that basis. ( Note here that she is not involved in any loans but like lots of women she thinks of her Grand kids.)

    There are few happy campers with that scheme and some thought and changes need doing. So there ya go.

    So. in summary.
    Living in the past doesn’t cut it anymore. Never has.

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  47. David Garrett (7,565 comments) says:

    So how’s that party of YOURS coming along Red? got 500 paid up members yet? Or is the membership number a secret?

    You going to lead it yourself, or handing over to the younger folk? Those under 60…

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  48. Viking2 (11,576 comments) says:

    Greens unveil bold carbon tax plan

    The Green Party has unveiled a bold plan to tax companies for their carbon pollution, though farmers would be charged half-price and all revenue would be returned to households and businesses.

    The party has completely lost hope in the “failed” Emissions Trading Scheme and now wants to replace it with a carbon tax in order to ramp up New Zealand’s efforts to combat climate change.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11265690

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  49. ross411 (882 comments) says:

    Redbaiter (6,745 comments) says:
    June 1st, 2014 at 10:07 am
    The main reason now for supporting today’s far left National Party is that the opposition are just so unbelievably worse.

    Oh baiter, if only things were that simple. Believability doesn’t come into it, and implies the observer is rational.

    My sister-in-law is a die-hard Labour supporter. If I make arguments, she demands supporting facts. If I provide supporting facts, she just stops talking about it. Until the next time. She works in a government department. I get the impression she sits around bitching with her co-workers and aligning their grievances.

    I know some teachers. They also appear to sit around and repeat the union line. Trying to talk to them, is like doing a bad internet search for quotes. You start talking details, and you get one line statements back that mirror whatever the union concern is at the time. It makes me wonder who is in control of who, the workers in control of the union, or the union in control of the workers. Who pulls the strings. The teachers don’t have any real details, just grievances.

    And I think that’s how everyone decides. Who their grievances align with. If the facts and details support their alignment, then that’s a bonus.

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  50. altiora (279 comments) says:

    @ Judith. I hope your abstension from voting, and the purity you feel from doing so, holds you in good stead if National are defeated and we have an extreme Left government.

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  51. s.russell (1,646 comments) says:

    It is inexplicable! No-one wants to by the wonderful 1974 Ladas from Labour’s used car yard. Clearly they need a new salesman. It is all his fault they are not selling like hot cakes.

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  52. ross411 (882 comments) says:

    CharlieBrown (830 comments) says:
    June 1st, 2014 at 11:57 am
    NZ needs John Key out of government if it wants to succeed.

    But.. New Zealand is succeeding. We’re doing great. I’m not sure what ocean of vague negativities you are swimming in, but I doubt it exists in this dimension.

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  53. ross411 (882 comments) says:

    Judith (6,407 comments) says:
    June 1st, 2014 at 1:45 pm
    My daughter and her husband voted National in the last election. They were torn, but decided that National offered better policies for their future as a young family.

    Yesterday she told me neither are going to vote in this election. They are disappointed with Key’s performance, and his ability to be ‘bought’.

    Look, I don’t want to pick and choose bits and pieces from a longer comment by yourself, but I think that this is representative enough that I’m not taking a cheap shot or intentionally misinterpreting.

    Why is it good to have a politician that can be bought? Isn’t it better to have one that cannot be bought? If one can be bought, then they’ll sell to as many as possible to hedge their bets. Then if you do pick them, you have to choose to give the rest of the country the downsides of not just what you’re selling out for, but all the other things being sold which you have to pretend to ignore just to get what you’re being bought with.

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  54. David Garrett (7,565 comments) says:

    See the thing is chaps….it’s very very easy to TALK about changing things…much more difficult to actually DO IT…My political career was short, but I learned that much..

    I agree with Roger D that Key has pretty much maintained the status quo … he has changed very little – pretty much nothing of substance unless ACT pushed him, and provided him with the all important excuse “Oh we had to do that to appease those ACT maniacs”… But that’s the MMP system that it appears we are stuck with for the foreseeable…

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  55. Jack5 (5,167 comments) says:

    David Garrett posted at 2.22:

    So how’s that party of YOURS coming along Red?

    Is that a hint to Reddy, DG? What portfolio will you want?

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  56. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    “But.. New Zealand is succeeding. We’re doing great.”

    Funny.

    Cubans say exactly the same thing.

    At the same time as a million NZers choose elsewhere to live and the intelligent and productive sector of Cuba lives in Florida.

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  57. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    DG, dont bother with them.

    Unless they get everything they want, they will vote for everything they hate.

    There is no reasoning with morons like that.

    I mean, “lets all vote for Kim Dot Fucking Com because John Key has done exactly what he has said he would do”.

    How are those tax hikes going for you all? You know, the ones that were necessary because of the massive increase in government spending? Oh, they didnt happen? Well shit.

    And what about those new powers granted to Unions? How are they going? Gummed up the labour market yet? Oh, they didnt happen either?

    But what about the screeds of extra regulations to fix all that “market failure”? What, they didnt happen either?

    WTF? Might as well vote National out, seeing as they havent fucking done anything!

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  58. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    “Is that a hint to Reddy, DG? What portfolio will you want?”

    DG doesn’t believe in anything. While he did well with his 3 strikes legislation, he has no core philosophy that he tests every idea against.

    That is why he was so easily defeated by the left. On the worthless allegation that he had “stolen a dead baby’s identity”.

    A charge so pathetic but still, because DG had no core beliefs, he found himself incapable of facing it down. And neither could he face down the cowards and losers who were making the allegations.

    Without that core belief, he has no conviction, so he’d never get on the ticket of Redbaiter’s party.

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  59. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    Tony Abbot has been in power six months and is fixing Australia’s debt problem.

    Key has been in power 6 years and NZ’s debt problem is bigger than ever.

    The difference between a politician with conviction and a popularity seeking empty suit.

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  60. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    Tony Abbott got into power by promising paid parental leave and a national disability insurance scheme. Is that the conviction you are talking about?

    He has raised taxes and barely touched spending.

    In doing the opposite of what he said they would do he is running the risk of being a one-term PM.

    When Labor get back in they will return to doing exactly what they did before.

    Abbott won because he did what Key did in promising not to touch the unaffordable, stupid, but popular policies of the other side.

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  61. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    Key has never done anything without checking the polling first.

    That is what you call a total leadership vacuum.

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  62. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    Having the aspect of a Turtle buggered Cunliffe right from the start. He can blame his failure on his Mum and Dad! :)

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  63. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    Key has never done anything without checking the polling first.

    That is what you call a total leadership vacuum.

    Whhaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Politicians dont do exactly what I want all the time even after I vote for them!!!!!!!!!!!!

    A successful politician gets policies passed that are both in the public interest and that the public LIKE. In this country that is a very small set of policies.

    Now if Key has said that he is aiming for 4 terms, then wouldnt it make sense for him to load everything in to the fourth term, after three terms have provided a popular mandate?

    Nah, you guys are right. Best to dump them in favour of the Hard Left who will fuck the country to their senses.

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  64. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    “Nah, you guys are right. Best to dump them in favour of the Hard Left who will fuck the country to their senses.”

    Thanks.

    I knew that in the end a smart guy like you would respond to reason.

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  65. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    I’ll just have to say at this juncture that I support Red 100% just so as I get to 14000! :)

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  66. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    Congratulations?

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  67. CharlieBrown (1,028 comments) says:

    The worst thing ACT did was go into coalition with national in 2008 without twisting national’s arm into implementing national party policy. I have voted for ACT every time and I think they have the smartest leader they have ever had but I really believe that getting John Key out of power is the best thing we can do for the country.

    Kimble – “Now if Key has said that he is aiming for 4 terms, then wouldnt it make sense for him to load everything in to the fourth term, after three terms have provided a popular mandate?”

    What planet are you on? John Key was elected in 2008 with the most political capital a leader is likely to get. He had a chance to rid the country of maori seats. He had the chance to remove working for families. He has had so many chances to remove the socialist institution and he has chosen to do the opposite. So why on earth could you possibly believe he will do this if he gets a fourth term?

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  68. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    CharlieBrown- I’ll tell you what those quitters and losers will answer to that comment.

    “It is impossible to combat the extreme left political faction and their media/ academic allies. If we try to do so we will be defeated”.

    Just losers.

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  69. Kimble (4,443 comments) says:

    John Key was elected in 2008 with the most political capital a leader is likely to get. He had a chance to rid the country of maori seats. He had the chance to remove working for families.

    He said he wasnt going to touch either of those things.

    WFF is something that people changed their lives depending on. The costs of removing it were higher than the costs of keeping it. Thats the reality. Thats the sort of thing that matters to people living in the real world, but obviously not to you.

    So why on earth could you possibly believe he will do this if he gets a fourth term?

    Because if he said he was aiming for 4 terms then he doesnt need to worry about being re-elected. Obviously.

    Personally I dont care if they dont do another single thing ever. It is still better than having Labour trying to tinker the economy to good health and fixing all our social woes with more and more redistribution.

    Constant stupid fucking change. Thats what you are voting for if you dont vote National or ACT. Its the surest way to hobble and economy and leave people reliant on the government; always change the rules on them.

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  70. mikenmild (11,780 comments) says:

    Well, that’s tantamount to saying ‘support National for the status quo’. Do you think they will ever do anything bold, or just be content to preside over the changes bequeathed to them by Labour?

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  71. jcuk (718 comments) says:

    But it says 14002 JohnBoy .. you need not have written it :)

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  72. altiora (279 comments) says:

    Come on Redbaiter, we’re waiting for a response to Kimble’s 3:04 post about Blessed Tony Abbott. We’re all ears.

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  73. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “…..He [key] had the chance to remove working for families………..He has had so many chances to remove the socialist institution and he has chosen to do the opposite. So why on earth could you possibly believe he will do this if he gets a fourth term?…..”

    LOL Charlie Brown.

    Parents – while working – parent. WFF is money spent on children by their working parents – in their own homes by their own parents. It’s a tax break NOT a subsidy or government service. The result is that well bought up and educated childeren become productive in society and the economy.

    Businesses too get tax deductions ect so as to be more productive and competetive which enables them to remain doing business for the betterment of society and the economy also.

    So Key cannot go to an election and take tax breaks off parents while leaving businesses with them. The entire left will say so.

    Like Abbott has done[ socked the ‘richpricks’ by cutting back on who is eligible for WFF] Key -if anything- will only reduce who is eligable for it also. But he won’t – as the threshold is lower in NZ and GST 50% higher.

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  74. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    “Come on Redbaiter, we’re waiting for a response to Kimble’s 3:04 post about Blessed Tony Abbott. We’re all ears.”

    I responded to it at 3:08.

    What more do you want?

    (My initial point was about dealing with debt, Kimble went elsewhere in his response)

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  75. altiora (279 comments) says:

    Oh I was hoping you’d be saying that Key like Abbott should raise taxes, and how Abbott’s decision to continue Labor’s spending policies is some how different to what Key has done.

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  76. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    Abbot has to tackle an unexpected level of debt before he can do much.

    The point I was trying to make is that Abbot actually cares that huge amounts of money is taken from taxpayers to pay interest on debt, whereas Key is happy to keep paying that interest rather than risk the unpopularity that Abbot has encountered.

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  77. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “……Come on Redbaiter, we’re waiting for a response to Kimble’s 3:04 post about Blessed Tony Abbott. We’re all ears……….He has raised taxes and barely touched spending…….”

    He has raised taxes/levies on those who earn 180k or above – by reducing who is eligible for aussie’s WFF! No one else has had their taxes/breaks touched.

    Students have to pay more as both Labor and the Liberals have always said :

    “Checkout chicks who get paid by the hour should not have to pay for the education of those who get paid by the minute.” – but Shorten wouldn’t remind anyone about that!

    Government spending is being reduced – just ask the ABC!

    But you’ve missed the main point about reducing federal government spending:

    Abbott has also said that the State governments should ‘be more sovereign in their realms':

    Instead of all the states getting the Feds to raise the GST – they instead demand more from the federal government!

    The States do this because they don’t want to go to a state election having policy to sell state assets and policy reducing government services and costs.

    It’s not Abbott who is the problem – it’s the Premiers!

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  78. IC5000 (125 comments) says:

    “Redbaiter (6,754 comments) says:
    June 1st, 2014 at 2:58 pm
    Tony Abbot has been in power six months and is fixing Australia’s debt problem.”

    There is no debt problem in Australia. That was just a PR campaign used as a scare tactic to fool people into accepting their economic agenda which most people now view as a lie. Only someone with a ideologically distorted view of reality still holds to such beliefs.

    “First, Australia does not have a debt crisis. Or, to put it another way, Australia does not have a debt crisis. Far from it. Commonwealth net debt is about 11% of GDP, the third lowest in the OECD (the average is 50%), ”

    http://theconversation.com/australia-does-not-have-a-debt-crisis-so-just-say-no-joe-26148

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  79. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    “There is no debt problem in Australia.”

    I knew some socialist mainstream media ABC sucking halfwit would come back with that. From the Australian Financial Review-

    “If you just continued on the trajectory of payments and revenues prior to the budget, net debt is forecast to grow rapidly, I think, at the highest rate in the OECD,” [PBO head, Phil] Bowen said.

    “I don’t think that’s a fiction at all, but neither am I saying that we have an immediate emergency”…

    “Sure we’re currently at a very low level relative to the rest of the developed world, but frankly we don’t want to find ourselves where the rest of the world is,” he said.

    “You’ve got to have a buffer. One of the reasons we came through the global financial crisis so well was because we started with assets.”

    http://www.afr.com/p/national/budget_crisis_is_real_says_independent_DtmM7bH6L2RDjAxQVuKDFJ

    But it is not the point you side tracking dipstick. The point is that Abbot was prepared to sacrifice popularity when Key is not.

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  80. David Garrett (7,565 comments) says:

    Oh Charlie Brown…This is like a broken record..

    I was THERE when we negotiated the confidence and supply agreement in 2008 ; matter of fact I drafted most of it…In the middle of negotiations on wording – what we got of our wish list and how the commitment to it was worded…Suddenly…completely contrary to all expectations….National does a deal with the Maoris…that IMMEDIATELY halved or quartered our interest – from being “the gatekeepers” as Rodders thought we would be, we went to ONE of the gatekeepers…in short, if the Nats couldn’t get our support for something they had the Maoris as an alternate…..

    That my friend was the political reality of MMP…We ended up getting a lukewarm commitment to 3 strikes, and luckily we were able to persuade them to support that policy into law…We got the 2025 task force, chaired by Don Brash…the findings of which the Nats publicly mocked and then ignored…What were we supposed to then?

    Red the idiot would say “Withdraw from the Agreement and cause havoc from the cross benches”…Yep, we could have done that….and do you really think we would have achieved anything, except portray ourselves as unreliable partners?

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  81. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “……There is no debt problem in Australia. That was just a PR campaign used as a scare tactic to fool people into accepting their economic agenda which most people now view as a lie…..”

    Spending 50 bil a year more than you earn is a debt problem. And that’s why the public voted him in. And every voter in every state also knew the state governments had huge debt problems too. The federal tap needed to be turned off and their is no way a Labor government would have done that at each state election – just look at Rudd and Gillard’s spending on state labor policy that was up for an election!

    Sure, it ain’t a debt problem like NZ has had – as the NSW economy alone is 5 times bigger than NZ’s. But it’s still a huge problem.

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  82. David Garrett (7,565 comments) says:

    typo: wont let me edit…”..quartered our INFLUENCE..” not interest…

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  83. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Redbaiter says:

    “But it is not the point you side tracking dipstick. The point is that Abbot was prepared to sacrifice popularity when Key is not.”

    What do you expect?
    Net tax payers are in the minority.
    See my comment 11:41 am

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  84. IC5000 (125 comments) says:

    “I knew some socialist mainstream media ABC sucking halfwit would come back with that.”

    Why, because they are the economic facts? Sorry my bad.

    “If you just continued on the trajectory of payments and revenues prior to the budget, net debt is forecast to grow rapidly, I think, at the highest rate in the OECD,” [PBO head, Phil] Bowen said.”

    Yep, by destroying consumer confidence and business investment and the revenue side of the equation Abbott is doing an excellent job.

    “I don’t think that’s a fiction at all, but neither am I saying that we have an immediate emergency”…

    “Sure we’re currently at a very low level relative to the rest of the developed world, but frankly we don’t want to find ourselves where the rest of the world is,” he said.”

    Thanks for reinforcing my point. It would be helpful if you read what you quoted and may save yourself some embarrassment.

    “But it is not the point you side tracking dipstick. The point is that Abbot was prepared to sacrifice popularity when Key is not.”

    Abbott just a loud mouth punk compared to Key and got too carried away with his (temporary) popularity. He didn’t sacrifice anything but rather through series of miscalculations basically destroyed his chances for re-election.

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  85. CharlieBrown (1,028 comments) says:

    DG – The maori seats was an issue ACT could have fought for; it was, and still is one thing that most of NZ support removing. Had ACT made that a deal breaker the nats would have had no choice to remove them, the political backlash would be huge I would imagine; the right leaning voters of Epson would probably have backed Rodney Hide had he took that stance. It is somewhat ironic that John Keys socialist pandering to people could be his undoing if Mana gets in with the Internet Party.

    Also, if I recall correctly, didn’t ACT get into parliament without a deal with National in Epson in 2008?

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  86. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Harriet says:

    “Sure, it ain’t a debt problem like NZ has had – as the NSW economy alone is 5 times bigger than NZ’s. But it’s still a huge problem.”

    What do you mean has had?

    New Zealand’s debt is greater than Australia’s as % of GDP and per citizen.

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  87. Komata (1,204 comments) says:

    RB

    Re: ‘…The point is that Abbot was prepared to sacrifice popularity when Key is not’.

    I can’t say I agree with you on this, and history indicates that you are incorrect. Immediately after the 2008 election JK DID have to sacrifice his popularity , since as you will no-doubt recall a smirking Cullen had walked away with a ‘Gotcha’ comment, stating that (paraphrased) ‘The country is broke (deliberately BTW) and you JK, will never, ever rebuild it’.

    Key had no choice but to become unpopular, and what followed was no pleasant as we know. BUT the majority of Kiwi’s saw that he had no choice and were prepared to accept the hard times that followed. Some of course weren’t (and never would have anyway; it didn’t suit their narrative). As a result JK is probably the most popular PM since at least MJS and (even earlier) King Dick Seddon.

    Whether Mr Abbot will have the same long-term result is of course too early to tell. but having been through the ‘unpleasant medicine’ stage, Kiwi’s do at least know that a ‘cure’ is possible.

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  88. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “….What do you mean has had?….”

    Andy, I was talking in the past sense – as NZ HAS been addressing it’s debt problem for 8yrs now.

    Aussie is only just starting to address it. And I am commenting from oz.

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  89. IC5000 (125 comments) says:

    “Harriet (4,135 comments) says:
    June 1st, 2014 at 5:05 pm
    “……There is no debt problem in Australia. That was just a PR campaign used as a scare tactic to fool people into accepting their economic agenda which most people now view as a lie…..”

    Spending 50 bil a year more than you earn is a debt problem. And that’s why the public voted him in. And every voter in every state also knew the state governments had huge debt problems too. The federal tap needed to be turned off and their is no way a Labor government would have done that at each state election – just look at Rudd and Gillard’s spending on state labor policy that was up for an election!”

    People voted for Abbott for a number of reasons such as stopping the boats but mostly because he hammered into the electorate that Labour lied again and again. Unfortunately he failed to take on board that the electorate will hold you to those same standards and that opinion is reflected in the polls.

    We’re actually doing quite well here in NSW, people are shopping and there are help wanted signs in the shops. The property market is booming with new developments being sold off the plan and infrastructure spending will he humming away in years to come with the new airport. One bright spot is that Abbott wanted to be known as the infrastructure PM although history may remember for the Pacific gulags.

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  90. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “……He [abbott] didn’t sacrifice anything but rather through series of miscalculations basically destroyed his chances for re-election….”

    lol…….

    some people have to now pay $7 to go to the doctors.
    Those earning over 180k don’t get WFF.
    Students pay more – and then go on to earn more.

    The election is 3yrs away – ADDITIONAL gst changes will be bedded down by then – or taken to the election. GST is not being introduced – it’s an easy sell.

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  91. Reid (16,638 comments) says:

    The point is that Abbot was prepared to sacrifice popularity when Key is not.

    Yes, and some of us have seen this from day one and have been raising it for a long time and some of us know it but won’t admit it and some of us don’t and probably never will see it.

    Personally it’s been obvious to me since day one that Key has been trying to emulate Hulun not in policy but in the way she ran her Administration and part of that is being a poll-driven fruitcake. Those of us who are aware of this factor see it coming through frequently and I thought one of the more stellar examples of this was when Key while in London reversed the hapless (and hopeless) Parata’s decision on class sizes and this was reported at the time to be because Curia had run some research and found that opinion was against it. You wonder why DPF has been able to afford so many overseas adventures lately? Wonder no more. And good on him, why ever not take advantage if that’s what Key wants to do. Never mind the fact that Muldoon in his heyday was just as successful as Key was at plumbing the political mood except Muldoon did it on instinct, Key’s not as good as he was.

    But the point is Key’s a competitor and he’s clearly determined himself to beat Hulun in the ‘best PM NZ’s ever had’ competition and part of that, clearly, is privately assiduously following the polls but publicly, appearing to be ahead of them. Which means of course that what NZ gets in the way of govt action is what the braying moronic masses hallucinate would be a good idea, as opposed to actual good ideas, which may or may not coincide with what said morons hallucinate they want. But Key doesn’t care, so long as, when his term is over, he can look back and say: I beat Hulun.

    Thanks John. Way to run a country. Shame you haven’t realised mate you’re not in the job to benefit yourself. Of course you’re not the first to be guilty of that, but that doesn’t in any way excuse what you’ve decided to do, during your time in an office rarely granted to very few which represents to the incumbent a once in a lifetime priceless opportunity to put rubber on the road in terms of making a difference to millions of people’s lives. Hulun of course, being the execrable human being she in fact is, naturally used it as an opportunity to enrich herself simply so she could thereby get a bigger and better opportunity to screw not just millions but this time, billions up the a*se. But anyone who understands human nature always knew she was going to do that. But it’s a shame you John, being a completely different person on the inside, have also decided to adopt not only her tactics but to an extent, her execrable nature, by abrogating your responsibility to us, all for the extraordinarily venal but cheap and meaningless price of nothing more than the enrichment of your own reputation. And who cares about that mate, compared to the actual and real welfare of the 4 million plus souls you had in your charge, for a short time, during the early 2010’s?

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  92. David Garrett (7,565 comments) says:

    Charlie: Removing the Maori seats was a biggie for us…but not as big as 3S and a couple of economic policies that I now can’t remember…I have no doubt that if we had made the Maori seats a deal breaker then there would have been no deal…and we wouldn’t have 3S which – like it or loathe it – is the most significant change to NZ penal policy since the abolition of capital punishment 50 years ago…

    No, there was no deal in Epsom in 2008,…but so what? that didn’t give us any more leverage once Key decided to do a deal with the Maoris..

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  93. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “…..One bright spot is that Abbott wanted to be known as the infrastructure PM although history may remember for the Pacific gulags…..”

    He’ll be remembered for saving women and children from being drowned by Rudd and Gillard.

    Gulags were places of work…..albeit not voluntary……the Soviet gulags were once the LARGEST employer in the world with over 2 million people in them.

    Whilst Muslims in detention centers do nothing more than nothing! :cool:

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  94. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    I’d give you ten instead of one for that if I could Reid.

    Say’s it all really! :)

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  95. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    Still the alternative looks a lot worse! :)

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  96. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    “It would be helpful if you read what you quoted and may save yourself some embarrassment.”

    It would help if you had read the whole article and saved yourself from looking like a smug pretentious ignoramus.

    Too late now.

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  97. Reid (16,638 comments) says:

    I’d give you ten instead of one for that if I could Reid.

    That’s the prerogative of the Minus Monster(s) mate. I refuse to believe more than a very few people disagree with me, yet I keep getting downticks, time after time.

    It’s not fair.

    Still the alternative looks a lot worse!

    That fact you’re right about that really says a whole hell of a lot about the current state of our Parliament, doesn’t it.

    Leftism. Why isn’t there a vaccination for it?

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  98. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    “Red the idiot would say “Withdraw from the Agreement and cause havoc from the cross benches”…Yep, we could have done that….and do you really think we would have achieved anything, except portray ourselves as unreliable partners?”

    What a feeble cop out.

    You wanted the money. That’s why you stayed in.

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  99. IC5000 (125 comments) says:

    “Harriet (4,137 comments) says:
    June 1st, 2014 at 5:33 pm

    some people have to now pay $7 to go to the doctors.
    Those earning over 180k don’t get WFF.
    Students pay more – and then go on to earn more.”

    That is one way of looking at it and certainly the narrative that the Coalition would like the electorate to embrace but that looks more remote. If the Coalition bases their election campaign on no surprises and no tax increases and then turns around and does the completely opposite then there are going to be trust issues.

    Realistically the budget is going to pass in a highly watered down version through the senate and since it’s not controlled by the Coalition then it’ll be an interesting fight to get anything through.

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-brushes-aside-disastrous-polls-saying-people-knew-coalition-would-have-to-make-tough-decisions-20140519-38iu6.html

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  100. nasska (11,822 comments) says:

    Reid

    You’re blaming Key for following the principles of democratic government. We don’t elect dictators for three years….we elect representatives to govern us based on their election manifestos & if they depart from those promises we rightly crucify them in the next poll.

    It is the way democracy works…..it’s not perfect but it beats the hell out of what is next best.

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  101. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “…..Key has been trying to emulate Hulun not in policy but in the way she ran her Administration and part of that is being a poll-driven fruitcake……”

    Key won’t get out of bed till he conducts a poll to see if it should be the left or right side. A lazy government. :cool:

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  102. Redbaiter (9,657 comments) says:

    Narsekissa..bleat bleat baaa baa baa

    Sheep. Spent so much time with them you’ve become one.

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  103. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “…..we elect representatives to govern us based on their election manifestos & if they depart from those promises we rightly crucify them in the next poll…..”

    Prostitution, gay marriage, smacking and now euthanasia have never been in the manifestos. Manifestos -presently- are for suckers.

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  104. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    Next best being Cunners/Wussel/Hone/Laila/Winnie/Uncle Tom Cobbley and all! :)

    That Rod Donald bastard (Saint or not) will get a kick up his arse from Johnboy if he’s stopped spinning in his grave yet! :)

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  105. IC5000 (125 comments) says:

    “Redbaiter (6,758 comments) says:
    June 1st, 2014 at 5:45 pm
    “It would be helpful if you read what you quoted and may save yourself some embarrassment.”

    It would help if you had read the whole article and saved yourself from looking like a smug pretentious ignoramus.”

    To be honest I wasn’t expecting a backdown from you in the face in the facts so you don’t disappoint. Tell me are you like this in real life with people who disagree with you and if so do you have comprehensive medical insurance coverage or more likely excellent cardio fitness?

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  106. nasska (11,822 comments) says:

    So we should throw away democracy as we know it & do it Baity’s way. We get some arsehole (any arsehole will do) to stand up & promise whatever will get him/her & their party elected.

    When elected they ignore their manifesto & do whatever the hell they want just because;

    1) They feel deep in their tummies that what they are doing is right OR

    2) Baity & his band of fruitcake conservatives know what’s best for everyone.

    There is always the third way…..appoint a conservative as dictator for life…..after all what could possibly go wrong?

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  107. Reid (16,638 comments) says:

    You’re blaming Key for following the principles of democratic government.

    nasska, the problem with democracy can be discovered through a five minute conversation with your average voter.

    If people had known the details of what Douglas was going to do, do you seriously think he would have been allowed to do them?

    Fact is, he told us about them before the election, but the moronic media was too dim to pick up on what he’d been telling them.

    That’s history, I don’t really want to get into discussing the details of what happened back then. But my point is, that was leadership.

    That was taking people in a correct direction because a few astute individuals knew what the correct direction was and the rest followed, like the bleating sheep most people in fact are.

    Sorry you don’t like it, but that’s human nature. If you don’t care to be a bleating sheep yourself, then educate yourself, but FFS, don’t complain that you weren’t the one to think about it first therefore it shouldn’t be done, when some politician or other is astute, wise and compassionate enough to LEAD us as opposed to what democracy encourages in us, for them to be close followers of the moronic mob.

    I happen to believe that most Western politicians once in office both here and overseas do whatever the fuck they like anyway irregardless of this quaint silly little democracy business that requires them to put on a face they wheel out to the people once every 3-5 years, but that’s another story.

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  108. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    Red for Fuhrer? :)

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  109. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    Reid for Fuhrer…..(forgot the i folks) :)

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  110. David Garrett (7,565 comments) says:

    so back to you Russell…how many members have you got? Really simple question inviting a vy simple answer..

    (BTW…all of us excepting Rodney and Roy got the same money whether we were in or out of relationship with the Nats)

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  111. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “……If the Coalition bases their election campaign on no surprises and no tax increases and then turns around and does the completely opposite then there are going to be trust issues…..”

    It’s already been said that the Liberals went to the election to ‘balance the books, stop the waste’ – that was the central election promise. There have been really no surprises as I pointed out to achieve that. Labor are tring to make it a trust issue – broken promises. They can stay on that theme all I care as it’s now becoming a broken record!

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  112. nasska (11,822 comments) says:

    ….”some politician or other is astute, wise and compassionate enough to LEAD us as opposed to what democracy encourages in us”….

    Then let them stand in front of the electorate & seek a mandate on their promised wisdom rather than promised actions.

    The world is overflowing with wise people who know exactly what we need…..some of them sneak through & history later records them as tyrants & dictators.

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  113. Reid (16,638 comments) says:

    Reid for Fuhrer…

    My first policy Johnboy would be to ban the party folders from the Parliamentary desks during the televised Question Time (a trend which Hulun started to subliminally reinforce their brand). It just annoys me.

    My second policy would be to make the Bedlamites, Liarbore, Mana and NZF wear clown suits or their birthday suits (their choice) while they sit in Parliament (I’d call it the “Honesty and integrity through transparent democracy in terms of what the various parties really truly have to offer Bill”)

    Let me know if you want another one. Happy to oblige. Wouldn’t want to spring a surprise on the electorate, lest nasska gets all offended.

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  114. OneTrack (3,237 comments) says:

    “If this year’s general election gives us a Labour-Greens-NZ First-Mana Dotcom coalition government it will surely convincingly prove to New Zealanders that MMP is a crap electoral system.”

    As far as I am concerned, this farce with DotCom and Mana has already proved. If the system allows a group of nutbars to combine their votes just to get themselves elected and then disband immediately after the election, leaving those mps in the house, then it is not fit for purpose and should be scrapped.

    This is in no way similar to the Epsom and Wigram situations. In both those cases, the voters knew exactly what they were voting for and made their choice.

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  115. IC5000 (125 comments) says:

    “Harriet (4,141 comments) says:
    June 1st, 2014 at 6:06 pm
    “……If the Coalition bases their election campaign on no surprises and no tax increases and then turns around and does the completely opposite then there are going to be trust issues…..”

    It’s already been said that the Liberals went to the election to ‘balance the books, stop the waste’ – that was the central election promise. There have been really no surprises as I pointed out to achieve that. Labor are tring to make it a trust issue – broken promises. They can stay on that theme all I care as it’s now becoming a broken record!”

    Abbott made trust an issue in the election so its strange that you claim it was Labour that is now making it an issue.

    The Coalition promised the following among other things:
    – No changes to pensions: broken
    – No new taxes: broken
    – No cuts to ABC: broken
    – Rescinding the carbon tax: nothing done on this so far
    – Stopping the boats: iffy due to towback but I’ll give him that one

    Also, Abbott’s planning on spending 12 billion on fighter plan plus probably an equal amount on their upkeep so I wonder how this contributes to balancing the books and stopping the waste.

    http://www.afr.com/p/opinion/tony_abbott_and_his_great_big_trust_vsSqjbx94pEGClwYULzMBM

    labour

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  116. nasska (11,822 comments) says:

    ….” Wouldn’t want to spring a surprise on the electorate, lest nasska gets all offended.”…..

    When you make your bid for the position of “President for Life” I’ll be sure to remind you Reid. Although I’ll know that in the tradition of all tyrants you will later have me killed for insubordination to “the cause”. :)

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  117. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    If you can remove that stupid sheepskin off of mad David Carter’s back and cease the mad Delahunty woman from screeching pseudo Murri I shall call you Mein Fuhrer Reid! :)

    ps: Mein Fuhrer…please give a life pardon to all who are doomed to reside in Ekatahuna! :)

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  118. nasska (11,822 comments) says:

    We tend to go straight to Heaven JB…..we’ve done our Hell on earth. :)

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  119. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    Minus is doing well tonight. Must have had an early dinner and is fully tuned up for the evening shift! :)

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  120. nasska (11,822 comments) says:

    It’s okay JB….I’ve upticked in anticipation. :)

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  121. Reid (16,638 comments) says:

    n the tradition of all tyrants you will later have me killed for insubordination to “the cause”

    Only after you’ve been a senior lieutenant and had a pretty good time bossing everyone else around and ‘liberating’ property, art and whatever else you happen to feel like nasska. I’ll probably give you quite a few medals as well.

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  122. nasska (11,822 comments) says:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/bkkamw7z4iy3vkz/Wankstain%202.jpg

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  123. Viking2 (11,576 comments) says:

    Johnboy (14,026 comments) says:
    June 1st, 2014 at 3:20 pm

    I’ll just have to say at this juncture that I support Red 100% just so as I get to 14000! :)
    ==============================
    14000 mostly rubbish.
    Johnboy (14,026 comments) says:
    June 1st, 2014 at 5:42 pm

    Still the alternative looks a lot worse! :)

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  124. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    It’s just such fun talking rubbish here at the heart of erudite right wing commenting V2! :)

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  125. Johnboy (17,018 comments) says:

    I recognise that kid nasska I ran over the little shits skateboard at Countdown Wainui a couple of years ago.

    Now I know who Minus Monster is! :)

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  126. OneTrack (3,237 comments) says:

    nasska – “There is always the third way…..appoint a conservative as dictator for life…..after all what could possibly go wrong?”

    That they were really a progressive dictator in disguise?

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  127. nasska (11,822 comments) says:

    I can’t think of many “progressive dictators” OneTrack…..somehow the raw power coupled with the ever present threat of an uprising turns them conservative, not to mention authoritarian, very quickly.

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