Labour condemns tactical voting yet also practices it!

June 16th, 2014 at 11:00 am by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

has issued its clearest sign so far that it will mount its own strategy in the Epsom electorate by encouraging its voters to give their electorate vote to National’s candidate, Paul Goldsmith, to try to edge out Act.

Labour candidate Michael Wood has produced a pamphlet that encourages voters to give their party vote to Labour, but does not carry a similar encouragement to vote for Mr Wood as electorate MP. Instead, it urges them to “vote to end the Act Party rort in Epsom” – effectively a code to vote for Mr Goldsmith in the strong National seat.

MMP is designed to give voters two votes. It is no surprise voters will vote tactically in a way to maximise the chance of their party making it into Government.

Labour tactically voted in Coromandel in 1999. Greens tactically voted in Ohariu, West Coast and Auckland Central where their candidates urged a tactical vote for the respective Labour candidates. And in Epsom they tactically vote to try to keep ACT out.

I’ve got no problem with that, but the hypocrisy of denouncing tactical voting as a dirty deal, yet advocating it yourself is, as always, more hypocrisy.

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34 Responses to “Labour condemns tactical voting yet also practices it!”

  1. smttc (711 comments) says:

    burt will be along soon to explain why this is okay.

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  2. RightNow (6,844 comments) says:

    Judith will be along soon to explain why this isn’t hypocrisy, and why National are hypocrites too, and so are “you lot” for pointing it out.

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  3. burt (8,048 comments) says:

    smttc

    Bollocks, It’s Judith who will be telling us that it’s right for Labour to say it’s corrupt when National do it but then it’s OK for Labour to do it because National do it too.

    Perhaps you have missed the history here smttc – I would like to see both National & Labour eliminated from standing. They are both self serving parties.

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  4. jhanet (11 comments) says:

    Lets face it – who in their right mind wants ACT back in. Not me. I mean, what kind of moronic party wants to put interest back on student loans? That is morally wrong and will cripple students with extra years of paying pointless debt and prevent them from getting ahead and living their lives. It’s discrimination and certainly a grinch-like move. Lower taxes might sound good but the consequences of doing this are just too great (especially for those in vulnerable financial positions) to allow them.

    Also, in regards to Michael Wood not campaigning for the electorate vote – a good move from him, as why would you bother. Being the most anti-Labour electorate in the country, he knows he hasn’t got any chance of winning, so might as well give support for the less evil option!

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  5. andrewcarrot (5 comments) says:

    David, You have to add Sydenham to the tactical voting list, as Labour’s commentators here seem to have forgotten all about Jim Anderton.

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  6. burt (8,048 comments) says:

    Jolly Jim, the man who abused the tax payers pockets by sending out about 1,000 envelopes franked in the parliamentary franking machine for his Wife’s local council campaign. He’s a man of principle that one !

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  7. Judith (8,467 comments) says:

    I would like to see both National & Labour eliminated from standing. They are both self serving parties.

    On that we do agree. Historically they are relevant – I no longer believe either are now. As long as we continue to follow the outdated traditions presented by a ‘left/right’ dilemma, we will fail to progress at any satisfactory level.

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  8. smttc (711 comments) says:

    burt, you missed my point.

    I expected you to say it is different when Labour do it.

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  9. backster (2,124 comments) says:

    I heard Wood being interviewed by a fellow travellor on a radio station recently, seemed a real nasty type in the nature of Mallard.

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  10. dime (9,690 comments) says:

    Jhanet – please explain how national are evil

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  11. Ross12 (1,292 comments) says:

    “I’ve got no problem with that, but the hypocrisy of denouncing tactical voting as a dirty deal, yet advocating it yourself is, as always, more hypocrisy.’

    True DPF. But I think theIinternet/Mana hypocrisy on coat tailing, takes it to a new level

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  12. burt (8,048 comments) says:

    smttc

    Oh of course… It is different when Labour do it !

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  13. jhanet (11 comments) says:

    dime – if looking at it from Labour’s perspective, National are the ‘evil’ (at least that is the framing of them they seem to be doing). Doesn’t mean I share that view, and I don’t. Whilst not a Nats supporter there are a few good things they have done for the country. But ACT, as stated above, yes – evil in my eyes.

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  14. dime (9,690 comments) says:

    Jhanet – so using the words less evil was a mistake. Understood.

    Personally I find labour and co evil as they just want to steal more and more of us and take more of our freedom away.

    Students should pay interest. I did. 46k paid back on 23k borrowed. I still managed to become rich.

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  15. Henry64 (82 comments) says:

    @ Jhanet Interest Free Student Loans were an election bribe. Where else can you get an unsecured loan for 0% interest?

    In my lifetime I have had 2 student loans, one with interest and one without. I have repaid both. It made no difference to me whether there was interest or not, however the main focus upon completing my studies was to repay them as quickly as possible.

    Interest free only applies to the borrower, the lender i.e. the taxpayer ends up not only providing the money, but paying the interest on it as well. I’d much rather see interest on student loans to free up tax funds for imporant things like health and education.

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  16. jhanet (11 comments) says:

    So you say free up tax funds for education – tertiary education is a form of education (just as important as primary and secondary)! It is important for today’s work force and needs to be encouraged. By having interest-free study loans this is a great way to incentivise this, and as a result have a society with more people prepared with valuable skills for this work force.

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  17. dime (9,690 comments) says:

    Jhanet – were tertiary numbers on a downward spiral before the election bribe?

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  18. prosper (141 comments) says:

    The left seem to think the people of Epsom are too stupid to make up their own minds. This also applies to several electorates. It,s the voters decision not a cadre of left wing parties.

    It was the greens that wanted MMP. Well they got it.

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  19. jhanet (11 comments) says:

    Even if they weren’t, I believe it is important for a government to show commitment to students and be on side with them, by investing money in their future, as after all they are the next generation of leaders and it is a good way to show faith and belief in them.

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  20. unaha-closp (1,142 comments) says:

    jhanet,

    If higher education is the road to wealth and prosperity, free student loans are where all the working people of New Zealand get together to give a big subsidy to the rich pricks of tomorrow.

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  21. Chuck Bird (4,774 comments) says:

    I would be happy to have a binding referendum on the electoral commissions recommendations on stopping coat tailing, lowering the threshold and abolishing the special Maori seats.

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  22. Grendel (974 comments) says:

    DPF, lets not forget that Labour and Alliance spent the 99 election whining about the deal National had done for Act in Wgtn central in 1996, but then when they realised Prebble was going to win, Bunkle pulled out and told all alliance voters to vote for Marion Hobbs.

    she went very quiet about ‘dirty’ deals at that point.

    i dont care about deals or tactical voting. its all good, its been part of MMP from the start. the left only get antsy when they benefit from it least.

    Jhanet, i still have 46K on my loan and there should definitely be interest on them. its rediculous not to. ACT are one of the few parties making sense, who dont want to interfere with your bedroom or your wallet. thats pretty sensible to me. but carry on with the unrelenting hate and then you can vote Green and prosper with all the lovely new taxes they want to bring in.

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  23. peterwn (3,216 comments) says:

    I can just imagine Labour Party hoardings in Epsom.
    [tick] Goldsmith
    [tick] Labour

    I think the Nats should allow Paul to use the usual mixture of PV and 50/50 hoardings in Epsom otherwise it would look just too obvious.

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  24. jhanet (11 comments) says:

    ACT are discriminating against a particular group in society by taking away a right which was given to them. Bear in mind that students aren’t getting a free ride (which seems to be what you are thinking) – the government is getting their money back. In no way would I ever agree with free tertiary education for all, that is a policy which even I think is too excessive and our country cannot afford. Here, by there being loans rather than an allowance, the government is not losing money but rather getting it back. Its only fair.

    A government needs to look after its people and invest in the future, not discourage those who are in a particularly vulnerable financial position who would find tertiary education just that bit further out of reach.

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  25. Grendel (974 comments) says:

    Bullshit Jhanet.

    ACT are discrminating against no one. in fact the are saying, why should the middle class or richer kid get an interest free loan, meaning we have to charge more tax on the labourer who will never do tertiary education.

    interest free loans are a gift to those who choose to go to uni paid for by those who do not. tertiary study paid for by other people is not a right, its a gross privilege.

    and the government does not get all the money back. heaps is written off every year due to death, and the with no interest the value of the money goes down each year.

    at least with interest (and the loan should go to your estate), the govt can actually get back close to the value of what they are lending.

    and you are obfuscating about ‘financially vulnerable people’. anyone can get a student loan so you can be as poor as you like. and you only pay it back when you earn over a certain threshold, regardless of what you borrowed. so you are dreaming if you think that interest alone will cause someone with a good reason to study to not.

    however what it will do, is reduce people studying for no good reason, as there is an actual long term cost.

    try not to use ‘fair’ in your arguments. fair has not objective value, so is worthless in a discussion. your version of fair will not be someone elses.

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  26. maxwell (50 comments) says:

    jhanet

    because of non payers the govt are getting only 60c in the $ repaid from so called interest free loans

    and the value of the 60c eventually returned is being diminished by compounding inflation

    at the very least the interest rate should be set at the rate of inflation to protect taxpayers capital,

    and maybe also a small admin margin. Remember we are borrowing all the money for the loans.

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  27. rangitoto (222 comments) says:

    jhanet – “By having interest-free study loans this is a great way to incentivise this, and as a result have a society with more people prepared with valuable skills for this work force.”

    Yeah. The country justs needs so many more pol science grads.

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  28. jhanet (11 comments) says:

    Fair call on ‘fair’ – I see what you mean and I agree that what may be fair to me such as the above isn’t fair to you. I also agree that the loan should go to the estate should death result. In fact, it is minor tweaks like this which I believe can strengthen the interest-free student loans scheme further and increase the chances of getting money back should the borrower die. What I do fail to see however is that if I want to buy my first home (for example), why should I and many others have to wait longer to be able to do this due to having to pay more money back? Housing is becoming increasingly unaffordable in this country and this will only make it harder for future generations, not easier to get ahead with more money subsequently being owed.

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  29. Alan (1,086 comments) says:

    Just because you want to change the rules in a process doesn’t mean you should disadvantage yourself by refusing to play the game as it’s currently structured.

    That’s not hypocrisy, it’s simple common sense. You’ve got work within the extant rules.

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  30. RightNow (6,844 comments) says:

    jhanet: “ACT are discriminating against a particular group in society by taking away a right which was given to them.”

    Interesting point of view. Don’t you think that “right” given to them was in itself discriminatory? Shouldn’t the government offer equable interest-free loans to non-students?

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  31. Grendel (974 comments) says:

    jhanet, i can tell you for a fact that the having of a student loan in of itself does not impact your ability to buy a home (i am a mortgage adviser).

    unlike other debts, the amount you owe is not taken into account at all. so this makes the student loan positively discriminated for unlike a car loan (which may have been of more use).

    the student loan is simply an expense which has to be taken into account. so the only way you will be unable to buy a home, is if your serviceability is so low that the student loan payments put you into the ‘no’ box.

    in my experience then you have a couple of options, sometimes the lender will allow it anyway as the core expenses they use are a guideline and they can tweak it if need be, or you just have to borrow less.

    this is, btw the same as the car loan, but they rarely mitigate the car loan if affordability is impaired by the debt.

    so student loans in themselves do not stop you buying a home. and if you did a decent degree your income will be higher, making up for it.

    but its not up to me or the rest of society to educate you for free and then hold your hand to buy a home. lots of us bought houses at much higher rates than this, with student loans.

    as maxwell pointed out, the public loses 40% of student loan money (at least). So ACT is being ‘fair’ by trying to reduce the rot.

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  32. polemic (430 comments) says:

    The problem seems to be that if you want to keep MMP in its current form then you are not just allowing tactical voting but condoning it.

    They want their cake and want to eat it as well

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  33. goldnkiwi (1,180 comments) says:

    They want my cake too

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  34. Dead Earnest (149 comments) says:

    Look guys it works both ways!
    “Wake up Te Tai Tokerau. Hone has hoodwinked you, by selling out to big foreign white ….”.
    A man that calls black people niggers, and man that collects Nazi regalia, a man that can’t pay his workers the minimum wage.
    VOTE KELVIN DAVIS

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