Another Malaysian Airlines flight goes down – this time by a missile

July 18th, 2014 at 5:59 am by David Farrar

Stuff reports:

A Malaysia Boeing 777 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur has crashed in near Donetsk, killing 295 people, with Ukraine officials claiming it was shot down by a surface-to-air missile launched by pro-Russian separatists.

The disaster comes only four months after Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 vanished on a flight between Kuala Lumpur and Beijing on March 8 with 239 people aboard, including New Zealanders Paul Weeks, 38, and Ximin Wang, 50.

First thoughts are with the families of the 295 passengers and crew on board.

Second thoughts are with . Unlike MH370, this doesn’t look like it has anything to do with the actions of or their staff. However I suspect they will face a huge loss of patronage after this.

Hopefully those responsible are identified and jailed.

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203 Responses to “Another Malaysian Airlines flight goes down – this time by a missile”

  1. tas (655 comments) says:

    Wow. I hope those responsible are identified quickly. But I doubt they will face any justice.

    IMHO, it is a bit silly to be flying in that airspace, given the downed military jets.

    Condolences to the many families.

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  2. EAD (1,450 comments) says:

    I’m currently on business overseas (hence the apparent odd hours post) and have been following this in real time here on our trading screens and via live feeds from BBC, Al Jazeera, RT and CNN and of course, not to mention online from Zerohedge & Bloomberg. I posted earlier on yesterdays General debate but the talk on the trading floors is what this all means in the bigger picture.

    As Zerohedge so succinctly puts it, “considering the amount of propaganda involved in this tragic development, take everything you hear with a MINE of salt” but there is a nagging feeling that this has got the potential to escalate to something like 1914 all over again as it’s almost 100 years to the day that Archduke Ferdinand was shot, eventually escalating to WW1. Those who have been following geo-politics closely, admit that they’ve never seen so many hot spots in the world right now that could escalate into something much larger – possibly WWIII. That is not to even mention the volatile situation in most Western countries with large Islamic populations who are seething.

    All I can say is that I hope this de-escalates quickly as there is going to be a lot of propaganda and blame thrown around in the next 7 days.

    It might also be a good time to head down to your local Gold Bullion dealer and buy yourself a few gold ounce coins “just in case”

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  3. EAD (1,450 comments) says:

    The observation I noted watching the live feeds was that within minutes of the plane hitting the ground CNN & BBC already had this whole thing figured out and who is to blame. The who, where, how and why. Almost like they knew this might happen….

    As such, this leads me to believe that this has got false flag written all over it and is going to be used to justify military action somewhere in the world in some shape or form.

    You heard it here first.

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  4. flash2846 (289 comments) says:

    And watch, within 24 hours the Americans will somehow be blamed for this.

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  5. EAD (1,450 comments) says:

    Wow,

    2 down arrows and it’s 6.37am. I wonder if the down-arrowers even know what a false flag is?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag

    “False flag (or black flag) describes covert military or paramilitary operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operations appear as though they are being carried out by entities, groups or nations other than those who actually planned and executed them”

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  6. tas (655 comments) says:

    What happened to the NATO monitoring of Ukrainian airspace?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-26523816
    http://www.3news.co.nz/NATO-sending-planes-to-monitor-Ukraine/tabid/417/articleID/335366/Default.aspx

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  7. lilman (973 comments) says:

    EAD,Give us a break,you knob.No country is going anywhere near that place so whos going to attack?

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  8. big bruv (14,217 comments) says:

    Early next year I am travelling to the UK again. I usually fly Malaysian, this appalling act of terrorism will not stop me flying Malaysian again.

    I see no reason at all for people not to fly with Malaysian Airlines.

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  9. Harriet (5,200 comments) says:

    “…….A defence expert has told the BBC that shooting down a plane at 10,000m (9.7 miles) would have required a long- range surface-to-air missile – possibly guided by radar.
    That suggests it is unlikely it could have been downed by a portable air defence missile, or Manpad, which has a much shorter range.
    The only other possibility is for an aircraft at that height to be downed by a fighter carrying air-to-air missiles.
    The US will have access to satellite imagery that should be able to identify ultra-violet plumes if a long-range surface-to-air missile was fired………..”

    But that still won’t tell us who – it’ll just tell us from where. So EAD is probably right – it’ll be a black flag.

    And besides – who’s going to claim that anyway? – So it’s all about laying blame – a black flag.

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  10. duggledog (1,620 comments) says:

    I’m pretty sure I flew that route a couple of years ago on a Malaysian 747… WTF? Why would they shoot it down? Bye bye Malaysian Airlines, I don’t think the company can carry on after this.

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  11. lilman (973 comments) says:

    EAD may be right about Blackflags but still I ask who is going to invade?
    No-one is invading anyone,its a shitstorm that no country wants to involved in.

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  12. Elaycee (4,425 comments) says:

    You heard it here first…

    With ‘insight’ like that, I’m just grateful you’re not looking after my share portfolio…..

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  13. OneTrack (3,350 comments) says:

    Call me cynical, but I’m still waiting for some evidence that there really was a missile. Some Ukranian officials saying “it was those guys” doesn’t really fill me with confidence.

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  14. Fost (84 comments) says:

    @EAD and Harriet

    The speratist only recently (July 8) downed a high-flying Ukrainian military AN-26 flying (at 6,000m) – so they have the weaponry to do this.

    As for the ‘blag flag’ idea – interestly there is a tweet from Igor Stelkov – the leader of one seperatist faction about an hour before news of the 777 crash broke:

    “In the district of Torez an An-26 was just shot down. It crashed somewhere near the Progress mine. We warned them not to fly in “our skies”. Here is video confirmation of the latest “fallen bird”. The bird landed outside the residential zone, no peaceful civilians were injured.”

    So unless 2 aircraft came down at the same time – that would require 2 crash sites and there is no indication of this – the seperatist made a claim about shooting down an aircraft and so are most likely to blame – however that the Ukrainian military have been using aircraft to attack the separatists means the seperatists would be firing on aircraft they can see – so both sides have a level of culpability in this tragedy. Russia – who has been supplying weaponry to the seperatists, possibly even the missiles used in this attack so they have a good deal of culpability too.

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  15. holysheet (466 comments) says:

    You guys have been watching to much of scandal on TV

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  16. Harriet (5,200 comments) says:

    “….EAD may be right about Blackflags but still I ask who is going to invade?….No-one is invading anyone,its a shitstorm that no country wants to involved in……’

    Yes I agree it’s a shit storm that no country wants to be involved in. Putin wouldn’t be behind that — as bombing the Malaysian govt makes little sense — moreso when a Malaysian Airbus went over the exact same point 5 minutes prior!

    So you can then probably also discount any Nation state being involved – as it would be seen as an act of war against Malaysia more than anything else.

    Someone fucken dumb is behind it.

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  17. holysheet (466 comments) says:

    Wait for breaking news “silent T says he’s sorry for shooting down this plane”

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  18. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    A missile system capable of shooting down a plane at 72,000 feet was seen in the area a day before – the passenger plane was flying at 30,000 feet.

    It is patently obvious that the plane was mistaken for a Ukrainian military transport plane and then shot down.

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  19. Harriet (5,200 comments) says:

    “……..Elaycee (4,273 comments) says:
    July 18th, 2014 at 7:36 am

    You heard it here first…

    With ‘insight’ like that, I’m just grateful you’re not looking after my share portfolio……….”

    “…..It might also be a good time to head down to your local Gold Bullion dealer and buy yourself a few gold ounce coins “just in case”……”

    EAD’s clearly not interested in a portfolio Elaycee. His other 50% is probably in oil.

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  20. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    How pathetic in this time of tragedy and grief for the loved ones of the 295 on board we have the likes of EAD hysterically rushing to judgment laughably likening it to Sarajevo 1914 that ignited WW I.And of course it has to be all the marks of a false flag attack .
    By whom.? Will our Conspiracy Theorists blame naturally the Jews,Mossad and the CIA.?
    It’s to early to rush to judgement but a plausible scenario is a rouge missile fired for a sophisticated launcher present in the vicinity.Launched by those who did not have the proper training to operate it.It was in the vicinity at the time of the crash.
    But our thoughts should go out to the 295 on board and their loved ones but that can’t stop the crazies like EAD jumping to their insane conclusions and theories.

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  21. KiwiRupes (16 comments) says:

    Quite why they were flying in that airspace anyhow is a mystery, airlines had already been warned to avoid the area – the FAA had already issued a notice instructing US airlines to avoid the region, you would have thought that other airlines would have followed the advice… I guess that the savings of a little fuel overrode common sense.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/the-faas-notice-prohibiting-airline-flights-over-ukraine/374622/

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  22. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    295 families whose lives will never ever be the same. For a plane to crash due to technical problems is one thing, hard to accept, but you at least know it was not a deliberate act, but for one to be shot down, on purpose, must be extremely hard to deal with.

    Also for the Malaysian people whose livelihood depends on that airline – who will no doubt go under due to this – for them these must be very uncertain times as well.

    So many innocents – in a world full of dispute, and the few who are really responsible will never feel the slightest guilt.

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  23. Lance (2,712 comments) says:

    Oh fuck,
    Someone gave a monkey a gun and now it’s butt covering time.

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  24. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    It was like giving a blind man a gun to shoot with, people unable to distinguish one plane from another with the capacity to shoot them down.

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  25. pcplod (29 comments) says:

    Too many wars going on at the moment. Perhaps its time the media in general stop fuelling all those pathetic causes. :(

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  26. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Holy fuck. I hope my Cathay flight to London in September goes via Greenland

    Has any blamed Israel yet?

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  27. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    Nice one Putin!

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  28. Andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    This stinks to high heaven – the Ukraine army has just suffered a massive defeat in this area and the Junta in Kiev has lost any chance of gaining control there – unless they get outside help i.e NATO

    False flag written all over it with the USA itching for a military confrontation with Russia

    Dangerous times

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  29. Southern Raider (1,777 comments) says:

    Exactly jackinabox

    I was just about to say. And where would some rag tag separatists have got a super advanced surface to air missile from? I bet Putin claims you can by them on E-Bay.

    That short fuck is littering trouble spots around the globe with very dangerous toys as he tries to return Russia to their glory days about 300 years ago

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  30. Nostalgia-NZ (5,318 comments) says:

    ‘In 2001, Ukraine admitted its military was probably responsible for shooting down a Russian airliner that crashed into the Black Sea, killing all 78 people on board. A senior Ukrainian official said it had most likely been downed by an accidental hit from an S-200 rocket fired during exercises.

    In 1983, a Soviet jet fighter shot down a South Korean airliner after it veered off course into Russian air space and failed to respond to attempts to make contact. All 269 passengers and crew were killed.

    In 1988, the U.S. warship Vincennes shot down an Iranian airliner over the Gulf, killing all 290 passengers and crew, in what the United States said was an accident after crew mistook the plane for a fighter. Tehran called it a deliberate attack.’

    Need some clear perspective on this, no time to be jumping to conclusions.

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  31. Lance (2,712 comments) says:

    Yes Andrei
    And that’s why the ‘rebels’ were crowing on Russian social media that they had shot down ANOTHER Ukrainian military aircraft…. no .. wait
    It wasn’t them, it was a…… vast nato/yanky plot. Quick get the word out to the useful idiots.

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  32. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Actually Lance your colourful description is probably very close to the truth as it is known a sophisticated Russian ground to air missile launcher was in the area at the time.The same kind that apparently downed two Ukraine military transport aircraft earlier in the week.
    A tragedy not only for those on board and their families’ but sadly for Malaysian Airlines.True an area of some intense military activity with Putin’s separatists and the Ukrainians.One thing is for sure Airline will now not use the area as a flight corridor but who would think flying at 30,000 ft that someone would launch a surface to air missile.Unlikely someone fully trained and knowledge of flight paths.
    Breaking news from TV 3 , the separatists rebels made a damning admission about complicity but undoubtedly will quickly withdraw.it.!

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  33. eszett (2,450 comments) says:

    KiwiRupes (14 comments) says:
    July 18th, 2014 at 7:58 am
    Quite why they were flying in that airspace anyhow is a mystery, airlines had already been warned to avoid the area – the FAA had already issued a notice instructing US airlines to avoid the region, you would have thought that other airlines would have followed the advice… I guess that the savings of a little fuel overrode common sense.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/the-faas-notice-prohibiting-airline-flights-over-ukraine/374622/

    Not really, the area was not in the prohibited zone: (Also now in your link)

    UPDATE This FAA notice appears to apply mainly to Crimea and the areas immediately to its north, all of which are south of the reported crash zone. So this rule would apparently not have prevented flights over the exact area of the crash, but it certainly was a sign of a general trouble zone. Thanks to Joel Koepp and other readers for plotting out the Long/Lat readings.

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  34. peterwn (3,333 comments) says:

    Usually a passenger does not give any thought to the route taken and just assumes potentially safe passage. Having to comply with USA requirements when going via LAX would generally be a more significant issue than possible perils of going via Asia.

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  35. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ peterwn (3,126 comments) says:
    July 18th, 2014 at 8:40 am

    Sometimes its really good to live at the bottom of the world, and not have to fly through any of those air spaces too often.

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  36. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Andre , pathetically lame and pathetic but given that you take orders from abroad nothing surprising really .
    Just waiting with baited breath for Reid ,Ugly Truth and wiki with their hotlines to the highly “reputable ” Resne,Infowars,WND etc entertain us with , like EAD, their likely absurd conclusions.

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  37. Paulus (2,707 comments) says:

    Have flown with Malaysian a number of times and will have no hesitation in booking another flight with them.
    Good Luck Malaysian Airlines – I hear already from world wide aviation experts that it will destroy Malaysian. I hope not.

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  38. Andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    You know Stephieboy anyone who is half awake knows that the USA has been trying to provoke a major conflict with Russia for nearly a year now and why they want to do this

    And if this incident provides the causus belli it will be bad for all of us and our children regardless of who did it.

    The USA is collapsing and its leaders are panicking, this has been obvious for some time now – they might well perceive a major war as their way out

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  39. Kieran_B (76 comments) says:

    Only two days ago the separatists were proclaiming on social media that they had acquired an SA-11 missile system (jeez, I wonder where they got that?). The usual altitude of commercial airliners (10,000m) is well within range of this system.

    27 Australians were on board, no New Zealanders.

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  40. Rick Rowling (816 comments) says:

    Sadly one of my thoughts after hearing of this mass murder was to wonder how long some left-wing fuckwit (sorry for the language, but they deserve it) would somehow make this America’s fault, or colonialists’ fault, or something “right-wing” in their sad little minds, deflecting blame away from the evil prick who actually fired the missile.

    And there we are, 6:41am and 8:21am.

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  41. flipper (4,328 comments) says:

    Just had an email from a friend asking me to nominate someone to be gifted a free flight from Kuala Lumpur to Europe on Malaysia airlines……. I brought a few names into focus (I guess we all can), but then decided that it would be in extremely poor taste.

    A good, and timely post by Nos-NZ.

    I happened to be in Honolulu when KAL was shot down. The US air and naval forces went “crazy”. That was in the days of the USSR..,.,.

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  42. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Rick, EAD is not left wing. To the right of most in economics. Andrei is pro Tsar Putin and Christian Russia. Hardly left wing either.

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  43. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    EAD,

    Really, really, NOT the time for that shit. Claiming that media speculation is evidence is just retarded.

    Heads up, most people here don’t give a flying f==k what zerohedge says, or Ugly’s Atlantean Conspiracy site.

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  44. Rick Rowling (816 comments) says:

    SPC, thanks, I withdraw “left wing” from of my description of them.

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  45. Lance (2,712 comments) says:

    So Andrei
    If America were opening trying to provoke a war, WTF is Russia doing heavily arming rebel/terrorist shitheads with advanced weapons?

    Seriously if your wild crap were true then Russia must be in on it too because nobody is that stupid.

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  46. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “Rick, EAD is not left wing. ”

    The truth is that far Right” people like EAD are in the same camp as the far Left when it comes to these issues. It’s the horse shoe effect. They rant from the same playbook, and are the first to line up to piss on their own countries, like good little traitors. So what really is the difference?

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  47. Lance (2,712 comments) says:

    Mind you, perhaps I am wrong, to quote Albert Einstein

    “Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not so sure about the universe”.

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  48. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “You know Stephieboy anyone who is half awake”

    Well, that disqualifies you Andrie. People who swallow Kremlin propaganda are as asleep as it gets.

    Tell me, why did Putin get in their so fast and grab the black box?

    As to the US “collapsing” what color is the sky on Planet Kremlin?

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  49. wikiriwhis business (4,192 comments) says:

    BREAKING: Malaysia Plane 295 On Board Crash “Shot Down” In Ukraine

    Another Malaysian plane has crashed a Boeing 777 after leaving Amsterdam headed for Malaysia http://www.paulbegleyprophecy.com

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  50. Andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    I don’t swallow any propaganda Shawn – I wake up this morning and see that Israel is mounting a major invasion of Gaza, North Africa is in flames, that Iraq is exploding and that an airliner has been brought down in a region where a civil war is underway (which is a proxy American war targeted at Russia) and that the Government troops involved have just suffered a major defeats.

    Interestingly enough Vladimir Putins personal plane was very close to the plane that was shot down at some point not long before flying a similar flight path – does this has some bearing on what has happened? Who knows its an interesting fact though.

    But whatever I am not that keen on WW3 breaking out and that is what worries me that we are in for

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  51. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Andrei, the facts are the rebel separatists in the Doensk have made damning admissions of complicity especially on Russian social media Another fact, BUK air to surface missile SAM 11 12 launchers were in the vicinity and the same used against and downing two Ukrainian Military transport planes earlier in the week .
    But I will suspend judgement until a fuller investigation unfolds.
    Interesting interview by Kathryn Ryan on RNZ with Geneva aviation consultant.
    Observations. It’s not unusual for commercial airlines to flyover combat or war zones and this happened over e.g Afghanistan and Iraq .What is unusual of course is that know one expected or dreamt at 33,0000 ft a commercial airline been downed in this way. Disturbingly airline have no real means to identify themselves as friendly or neutral, not that it would made any difference here, with at seems , an untrained crew manning a BUK.
    Second it’s unlikely ,sad at is, that Malaysian Airlines will recover from this.Pan Am for example never recovered from the Lockerbie disaster.

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  52. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Andre, don’t be silly a WW3,won’t break out over the vain pretensions of an ex KGB tiin pot Lt Colonel.

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  53. tom hunter (5,134 comments) says:

    The USA is collapsing and its leaders are panicking …

    In your dreams. Even with the doofus currently in charge I’ll back a semi-capitalist democracy to do better over a shambles of a semi-feudal autocracy.

    The truth is that far Right” people like EAD are in the same camp as the far Left …

    While that’s true the sort of nonsense seen here has it’s roots more in the left’s fevered imaginings about the USA than in the Buchananite view of the world. For years practically everything the USA did was analysed by the left as being driven by it’s military-industrial complex. In the late 80’s I got a good chuckle about one lecturer I had in a course on Japanese politics who explained that the reason the US had offered the “Star Wars” technology to Japan was that it was the only way the US’s “collapsing” economy could make any money, as well as being a way for US leaders to control the Japanese economy before it overwhelmed the US’s.

    Similarly with Korea, Taiwan, Chile, Central America,….

    But it’s funny to see these sorts of theories now coming out of the mouths of hardline Orthodox Christians.

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  54. kowtow (8,936 comments) says:

    FAA warns airlines not to use the area.That’s following the recent shooting down of two other aircraft there.

    Blame lies with the shooters ,but serious questions need to be posed to Malaysian Airlines.

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  55. EAD (1,450 comments) says:

    A very insightful quote from Hermann Goering of all people from when he we was in trial in Nuremburg about how you can make people risk their lives in war when if any rational thought were applied there would be no way an ordinary citizen would want to do that.

    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring

    Göring: Why, of course, the people don’t want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

    Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

    Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

    From well know false flags Lusitania to the Manchurian incident to the Reichstag fire to the Gleiwitz Incident to Operation Northwoods to the Gulf of Tonkin incident to “Weapons of Mass destruction”..,….history is littered with all sorts of fabricated events used to start a war or seize power. This goes all the way back to Biblical/Roman times (recall the Great Fire of Rome from classical studies??)

    But this time is different, StephieBoy, ShaunLh, Lilman & Rick Rowling from Kiwiblog said so :)

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  56. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Kowtow, to early to make that judgement.As I’ve shown it’s not unusual for commercial airlines to fly over war and combat zones as my airline did in 2005 over Afghanistan and close to Iraq.
    Malaysian Airlines like any other could not have anticipated a sophisticated BUK type Surface to air launcher been used against their 777 flying at 33,000.
    But yes sadly this could be the end of Malaysian Airlines.
    EAD, typically your full of your usual polemic and rhetoric but short on the factual evidence .!

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  57. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “A very insightful quote from Hermann Goering”

    Oh yeah, a Nazi war criminal is a good source of information.

    Getting desperate their EAD, is your tin foil hat slipping a bit today?

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  58. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    Comrade Andrei opines: “I don’t swallow any propaganda Shawn”

    As Tom points out, claiming the US is collapsing is pure propaganda. And ironic considering that Russia IS collapsing due to it’s demographics problem.

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  59. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “n airliner has been brought down in a region where a civil war is underway (which is a proxy American war targeted at Russia)”

    You mean Putin’s proxy war aimed at desperately trying to revive the Soviet Union.

    “Above all, we should acknowledge that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century.” – – Putin.

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  60. EAD (1,450 comments) says:

    Shawn,

    you really are a lightweight aren’t you. Attack the man rather than the argument. Is there anything that Hermann Goering said under oath in Nuremburg that you disagree with?

    No attempt to engage in the argument, no attempt to use reason or logic, no attempt to look at history for precedent, just smear, smear, smear.

    Maybe I’ll use some quotes from people acceptable to ShawnLH who recognise this same truth:

    “This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector” – Plato

    “A history of false flag attacks used to manipulate the minds of the people! “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule” – Friedrich Nietzsche

    “All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting” – George Orwell

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  61. Andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    You mean Putin’s proxy war aimed at desperately trying to revive the Soviet Union

    What rubbish Shawn, that is propaganda that you have swallowed.

    Do you know where Vladimir Putin was when this happened?

    In the air returning from Brazil where he had scored diplomatic triumphs including the setting up of a development bank with the BRICS nations which will undermine the IMF and that in part is what all of this is about, preventing the emergence of a power base that will challenge the USA’s dominance in world affairs.

    The USA has squandered its wealth on building the biggest military machine the world has ever seen and thats all it has got, along with control of the banking system

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  62. J Bloggs (251 comments) says:

    Not that we’ll ever really know what happened, with every man and his dog spinning it one way or the other, but my money is on it just being a bunch of inexperienced, unprofessional quasi-military wannabe’s, with a bright shiny new toy, and a severe case of trigger happiness.

    In the absence of evidence to the contrary, never attribute to malice what can as easily be explained by stupidity.

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  63. itstricky (2,021 comments) says:

    Of course the real thing that starts wars are conspiracy theorists spouting bull and counterparts shouting at them that they’re full of bull. The rest of us non war mongering types sit in quiet contemplation of the dreadful circumstances in which this has happened, the loss of the families involved, and the implications for global travel.

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  64. PaulL (5,446 comments) says:

    I’ll ignore the conspiracy theorists on here, it’s most likely separatists. But on the matter of Malaysian, they’re a government owned carrier that has a near monopoly on flights into one of the most populous countries in the world. Yes, it may impact them somewhat, no I don’t really think it’ll mean the end of their business.

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  65. Lance (2,712 comments) says:

    @J Bloggs
    There is an over supply of violent shit heads in this world, always has been, always will be. The problem comes when someone is stupid enough to give them sophisticated weapons.

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  66. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,703 comments) says:

    Yet another foreign policy triumph for Obama.

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  67. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “Do you know where Vladimir Putin was when this happened?”

    Trying to buy support from the third world, much like his Soviet predecessors.

    Face reality Andrei, the most likely reason for this tragedy is a horrible mistake made by Russia’s proxy army in the Ukraine, a bunch of poorly trained militia’s armed by Putin.

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  68. EAD (1,450 comments) says:

    @ itstricky,

    I agree that rather than rush to judgement and start pointing fingers it would be better to take some time to think about the people who just lost their lives and their families and friends.

    The problem I have is that alot of the MSM media are subtly pointing the finger at Russia before any facts are known (i.e. BBC, CNN etc, which I mentioned in my very first post). Britain’s biggest newspaper, the Sun is leading with the headline “Malaysia jet MH17 ‘blasted out of skies’ by ‘Putin’s missile” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-28360336

    It is also funny watching all these world renowned experts on global security and terrorism issues here on Kiwiblog who should know that no shoulder launched missile system can shoot down an air liner at 33,000 feet. They are by definition low altitude weapons. The only people within the conflict zone where the plane was downed who possess the technical capability is………..the Ukrainian Government.

    Ohhh and here’s one for Stephie & Shaun re the Archduke – http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/brief-reminder-certain-events-100-years-ago

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  69. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Andrei (2,473 comments) says:
    July 18th, 2014 at 10:33 am

    This is RT ( or Voice of Russia ) , here is the news .

    U S imperialists are thought to be implicated in what appears to yet another black/ false flag by their Ukrainian stooges….. Etc
    ( with the smiling ex Lt colonel peaking over news readers shoulders )

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  70. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “you really are a lightweight aren’t you”

    Compared to you EAD I might as well have a PHD.

    “No attempt to engage in the argument, no attempt to use reason or logic”

    What reason or logic have you used? All you did was jump mindlessly to a tin foil hat conclusion, and then try to back it up with a quote from a Nazi war criminal.

    That’s not reason or logic, it’s as stupid and brainless as Ugly quoting the Atlantean Conspiracy web site.

    Tin foil hat conspiracy theories are the go-to source for people who have given up on logic and reason.

    That is why your always using a sci fi fantasy to make your case, because you cannot back it up with reason. “Here Shawn, switch your brain off like me and just swallow this red pill.”

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  71. Lance (2,712 comments) says:

    So EAD

    Is this like all made up?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11295584

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  72. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    Tell me EAD, how did Obama get pro-Russian militia to shoot down an airliner over territory held by the same pro-Russian militia?

    Show us your supposed logic and reason to answer that one.

    Perhaps it was one of Ugly’s UFO’s.

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  73. All_on_Red (1,742 comments) says:

    Cui Bono
    How does Putin benefit from shooting down a Malaysian airplane?

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  74. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “How does Putin benefit from shooting down a Malaysian airplane?”

    He doesn’t, and I’m happy to admit he’s not that stupid. I don’t think Putin was behind this. It’s not a conspiracy. The most likely possibility is that it was a tragic mistake. But, it’s a tragic mistake made all the more likely by Russia arming half-assed, poorly trained militia.

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  75. J Bloggs (251 comments) says:

    It is also funny watching all these world renowned experts on global security and terrorism issues here on Kiwiblog who should know that no shoulder launched missile system can shoot down an air liner at 33,000 feet. They are by definition low altitude weapons. The only people within the conflict zone where the plane was downed who possess the technical capability is………..the Ukrainian Government.

    Can you point out where anyone on this thread has suggested it was a shoulder launched missile – I can’t seem to find any such reference, but am willing to concede I may have missed such.

    Regarding the Ukrainian government being the only people in the conflict zone with such weapons, you overlook the fact that the separatists have, in multiple locations throughout the Ukriane, “liberated” military installations, and could well have also “liberated” the weapons systems within said facilities. Likewise there is also the possiblity the separatists also have members who have been trained in the use of these weapons from prior armed forces service.

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  76. Lance (2,712 comments) says:

    @All_on_Red

    Of course he doesn’t benefit, he will be as pissed as hell. Colossal flusterfuck

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  77. All_on_Red (1,742 comments) says:

    Shawn
    I tend to agree. The chances are the rebels have just fucked up big time . However the rebels could have stolen the missiles from the Ukrainian Army who also had them. They nicked plenty of other gear and some of the rebels are certainly ex Army.

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  78. Redbaiter (10,398 comments) says:

    Where is the evidence for any kind of missile?

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  79. jcuk (756 comments) says:

    Reading this blog I learn that Putin was flying in the same area as MA were …. thought …. perhaps it was an assasination attempt that went wrong? They got the wrong plane?

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  80. Fentex (1,134 comments) says:

    It is patently obvious that the plane was mistaken for a Ukrainian military transport plane and then shot down.

    That seems to be where the facts are pointing but I wonder, how does an operator of equipment like the Buk air defence system mistake a Boeing-777 and it’s flight envelope with a turbo prop AN-26?

    One would think at least it’s speed would be relayed to the weapons operator and the minimally competent would notice a discrepancy. But still it’s credible that target fixation (the ambition to attack a target once decided can mask evidence that things are not as previously decided) might lead to the completion of an attack.

    Apart from those directly responsible for pulling the trigger I think this condemns Putin most of all for instigating and encouraging a situation where serious military hardware is at the disposal of careless buffoons.

    It is strong evidence that the International community has good reason to actively discourage Russia’s apparent territorial ambitions.

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  81. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    Both Putin and Obama need to put their differences behind them, now more than ever, get their heads together, and find a way to de-escalate the situation in the Ukraine, fast, before we really do end up in a war that could go nuclear.

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  82. hj (7,156 comments) says:

    I thought I’d test wikipedia:

    The airspace above Donetsk Oblast was closed by Ukraine on 8 July 2014 except for aircraft in transit flying over 7,900 m (25,900 ft).[30]

    The incident was preceded by the loss of a Ukrainian military Su-25 “Frogfoot” close air support aircraft the previous day and a Ukrainian military An-26 “Curl” transport aircraft three days earlier. Ukrainian government officials accused the Russian military of downing the aircraft, but a spokesman for Russia’s Defence Ministry rejected those accusations as absurd.[31][32]

    Ukrainian interior ministry official Anton Gerashchenko stated on Facebook that the airliner was “shot down with a surface-to-air missile by terrorists”, referring to militants seeking to unite eastern Ukraine with Russia.[9] Later the Ukrainian President issued a different statement saying that Ukrainian authorities “don’t exclude” the possibility that the plane was so shot down.[33] Later the Ukrainian government changed its statement about the plane being shot down to “not excluding” possibility that it was shot down.[33] This was denied by the rebels, stating that they have no weapons capable of shooting down planes at the height the Malaysian airliner was flying.[34]

    A post on the VKontakte social networking service apparently from Igor Girkin, commander of the Donbass People’s Militia, acknowledged shooting down an aircraft at approximately the same time in approximately this location, claiming it was a Ukrainian military An-26 transport plane, and linking to video of smoking wreckage of the 777. This post was deleted later in the day.[35][36] According to Google Maps, Rassypnoye (where Girkin claims to have shot down the plane) is 6 km (3.7 miles) from Hrabove, where MH17 crashed. An Associated Press reporter on Thursday saw seven rebel-owned tanks parked at a filling station outside the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne, a few miles southeast of the crash site. In the town, he also observed a Buk missile system, which can fire missiles up to an altitude of 22,000 metres (72,000 feet).[37] Vehicle-mounted 9K35 Strela-10 missiles were also filmed by Russian Lifenews team near Donetsk.[38] On 29 June, NTV reported that separatists had access to a Buk missile system after taking control of a Ukrainian air defence base.[39] On the same day, the Donetsk People’s Republic claimed possession of such a system in a since-deleted tweet.[40]

    A defence expert later reported that to shoot down an aircraft at such a high altitude would have required a long-range surface-to-air missile possibly assisted by radar or by an air-to-air missile from another aircraft.[41] The Buk surface-to-air missile system uses radar guidance.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17

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  83. Lance (2,712 comments) says:

    @J Bloggs
    It has also been widely reported before now that the border with Russia is wide open in these areas. And the BUK launchers are fast mobile platforms.
    Although I can’t actually imagine Russian forces being that fucking stupid as to do this. Whereas the rebels….

    I admit no proof yet. The political maneuvering will be intense over this event.

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  84. EAD (1,450 comments) says:

    Where did I mention Obama Shorn? You are just putting words in other peoples mouth again.

    I have already explained at length the motivation. For one last time, I will use a different example from history to illustrate my point. Do you remember this video where a fifteen-year-old Kuwaiti girl, who alleged that she had witnessed the murder of infant children by Iraqi soldiers in Kuwait, gave verbal testimony to the U.S. Congress, in the run up to the 1991 Gulf War that was televised all over the Western World. Her testimony, which was regarded as credible at the time, has since come to be regarded as wartime propaganda

    Why are you trying to smear my by association with Ugly (who I think actually contributes worthwhile points on the odd occasion).

    To be honest mate, I’ve got better things to do than debate with idiots like you. If I wanted to argue with idiots, I would go over to the Guardian where at least they have a philosophical underpinning for their stupidness and blindness to reality.

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  85. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “Where is the evidence for any kind of missile?”

    A photo of the missile amongst the wreckage was on the news about half an hour ago.

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  86. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “Why are you trying to smear my by association with Ugly”

    You do that yourself.

    “To be honest mate, I’ve got better things to do than debate with idiots like you.”

    Translation: “I have zero evidence for my conspiracy, so I’m going to run away fast, before I make an even bigger dick of myself.”

    Shit EAD, at least Andrei has a valid excuse, he’s a patriot who loves his country. What’s yours?

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  87. Lance (2,712 comments) says:

    @Redbaiter

    Radar tracking datalogs have already shown it was a missile. Or so it is being reported by CNN.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

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  88. All_on_Red (1,742 comments) says:

    I can see the Russians providing shoulder launched missile systems ( think Stingers/ Javelins) to defend against low flying attack aircraft but systems capable of firing 40,000 feet? What’s the point.
    Maybe the Ukrainians did try to shoot Putins plane down and they fucked up.

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  89. edhunter (554 comments) says:

    In this day and age of the 24/7 news feed, instead of just reporting the facts we get conjecture, rumour & innuendo all masquerading as NEWS.
    Which leaves the problem of trying to filter out the 98% of the bullshit.
    Fact a plane has crashed in the Ukraine
    Fact everyone on board has died
    Everything else at this stage & I mean everything is supposition.

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  90. All_on_Red (1,742 comments) says:

    Shawn
    A photo of the missile? How could you have that? I thought it would be destroyed when it blew up?

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  91. hj (7,156 comments) says:

    itstricky (1,518 comments) says:
    July 18th, 2014 at 10:37 am

    Of course the real thing that starts wars are conspiracy theorists spouting bull and counterparts shouting at them that they’re full of bull. The rest of us non war mongering types sit in quiet contemplation of the dreadful circumstances in which this has happened, the loss of the families involved, and the implications for global travel.
    ……….

    My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Go home and get a nice quiet sleep.

    Neville Chamberlain assured Britain Hitler was (ahemm) not Hitler. Human behaviour is diversified for a good reason; the xenophobes aren’t always wrong.

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  92. EAD (1,450 comments) says:

    “But, it’s a tragic mistake made all the more likely by Russia arming half-assed, poorly trained militia”

    That sounds like either a good fairytale or an extreme case of cognitive dissonance as I don’t know of too many “half-arsed” and “poorly trained” “militia” capable of shooting a plane travelling 35,000 feet in the air at 500 miles an hour using a complex, low altitude, shoulder launched missile system. You need very advanced weaponry and highly specialised training in that situation.

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  93. J Bloggs (251 comments) says:

    @Lance: Just pointing out that there is always a way for these things to come together without it being the results of deliberate moves by one government or the other.

    I guess that by nature I’m sort of an anti-conspiracy theorist. :)

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  94. All_on_Red (1,742 comments) says:

    hj
    So Wiki is saying the rebels stole the system so therefore weren’t given it by Putin

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  95. SGA (1,252 comments) says:

    @ShawnLH at 10:15 am

    “A very insightful quote from Hermann Goering”
    Oh yeah, a Nazi war criminal is a good source of information.

    As a source of information about how to manipulate the masses, why not? Goering certainly had some success that way.
    (and “No”, that doesn’t mean I’m buying into the rest of EAD’s position).

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  96. Lance (2,712 comments) says:

    @All_on Red
    The missiles in question are large (16ft) but mostly to provide the enormous thrust at reach Mach3. It takes only a relatively small payload to bring down an aircraft if you can get the warhead close enough.

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  97. cha (4,138 comments) says:

    case of cognitive dissonance

    Sock puppet alert!.

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  98. tom hunter (5,134 comments) says:

    Goering?

    It does seem appropriate to quote him, given his general lack of understanding of the West and especially the USA, hence these two other quotes:

    “Don’t worry, the Americans can’t build planes, only electric ice boxes and razor blades”

    Which naturally led to the better known:

    “No enemy bomber can reach the Ruhr. If one reaches the Ruhr, my name is not Goering. You may call me Meyer.”

    Given that these comments dealt with his supposed area of expertise I’m not inclined to take any notice of how he thought democracies worked.

    But back on topic. I’d agree with the comments above that Putin will be sweating this one and wondering what sort of idiots he’s allied himself with. I doubt that he and Obama will put their heads together though: Putin because he’s confident he can regain control of the situation and does not want interference, Obama because he’s clueless about how to negotiate.

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  99. SGA (1,252 comments) says:

    @tom hunter at 11:37 am

    Goering?

    LOL, fair enough. I was thinking of the Nazi leadership more collectively.

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  100. All_on_Red (1,742 comments) says:

    Thanks Lance

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  101. polemic (460 comments) says:

    This may give the US some teeth to arm up the Ukraninians to defend themselves from Putins territorial invasion.

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  102. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    EAD, the circumstantial evidence is so far strong implicating the Doensk rebels in shooting down MH 17 with a BUK surface to air missile launcher.We even have an admission from them to that effect , but even so lets supend total judgement until more facts emerge ( painful as it will be to you )
    We do not know as yet the kind of truing the rebels would of likely have had but it appears more and more like the silly 9//1 Truther argument that hijackers could not of possibly flown sophisticated aircraft like 767s or 757s. A BUk is quite highly unlike the much older equivalent used by e.g the North Vietnamese..
    The Nayriah testimony comparison is a highly spurious one given the context of the circumstances. At least many in the West had a chance to dispute and debate it.
    I doubt you’ll find this with RT, V of over MH 17 R and other Conspiracy sites you habituate.!

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  103. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,703 comments) says:

    In all the huffing and puffing, nobody seems to have asked the simple question:-

    ‘Why the hell are civilian airlines flying over active war zones in the first place?’

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  104. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,760 comments) says:

    ShawnLH says at 11:04 am

    Tell me EAD, how did Obama get pro-Russian militia to shoot down an airliner over territory held by the same pro-Russian militia?

    Well, Community Organiser Obama supported a coup to overthrow the democratically elected government of Ukraine and install an American puppet. This American Puppet regime has proceeded to kill its own people, all with the blessing of American and its Western puppets including the UK and NZ. On the plus side looks like the Community Organiser Obama may have organised 23 of his fellow country men to become fertilizer in the Ukraine. The first positive contribution to the Ukraine by Americans in a long time.

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  105. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,760 comments) says:

    Lets just relax and listen to the advice of a “Good” American, Tom Petty:

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  106. cha (4,138 comments) says:

    ‘Why the hell are civilian airlines flying over active war zones in the first place?’

    According to CNN the flight diverted north to avoid bad weather. And this:

    Confident no missile could be aimed at civil flights at cruising level, Ukrainian authorities had closed the airspace between the ground and 32,000 feet prior to the Malaysia Airlines incident. Therefore, airliners were routed through Kiev’s dangerous airspace in spite of the threat posed by uncontrolled SAM launchers.

    When a missile hit MH17 1,000 above the ceiling of the restricted airspace, proving no aircraft is immune to deadly surface-to-air-missiles, Ukrainian airspace was partially closed.

    Too late.

    http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/17/mh17-matter-of-time/

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  107. PaulL (5,446 comments) says:

    @Adolf Fiinkensein: because until now an aircraft at 30,000 feet was considered safe from whatever was happening on the ground 10km below. People with SAMs sophisticated enough to hit that high were considered to not be likely to shoot down airliners. It would appear that assumption was very wrong. I’m somewhat glad that our flight ex Europe was via Dubai (Emirates), and therefore flew over Iraq, which is clearly a much safer place than Ukraine!!

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  108. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Adolf, the facts they do. I explained earlier this is common with e.g flight corridors over Afghanistan and Iraq . My Singapore did just that in 2005 with a flight from London to Singapore.
    No commercial airline would of thought or anticipated someone aiming a Air to Surface missile at an flight flying at 33,000 ft. Obviously thinking will need to change in this respect

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  109. Lance (2,712 comments) says:

    @OECD

    Are you really that fucked up or it is just a show?

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  110. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,804 comments) says:
    July 18th, 2014 at 12:06 pm

    Utter garbage. The evidence and facts so far point the other way.But id doubt you’ll expect to here about this from RT or Voice of Russia, Inforwars, Global Research , WND etc ,etc for very obvious reasons .!

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  111. Jack5 (5,274 comments) says:

    What Adolf Fiinkensein said at 12.02.

    Apparently airlines are routinely flying over war zones. If the world wants that to stop the people to enforce it are the insurance companies: fly your plane over a war zone and no cover.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/10282595/MH17-Its-normal-to-fly-over-conflict-zones

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  112. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “@OECD

    Are you really that fucked up or it is just a show?”

    He’s really that fucked up. No mention of the fact that the “democratically” elected President was a Putin puppet, or that he shot people who were protesting, which is what led to the coup in the first place. Facts like that are too inconvenient for OECD to deal with.

    No, it must be those horrible Americans, and isn’t great that 29 are dead. OECD thinks that something to celebrate. I would like to introduce OECD to my family.

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  113. Andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    He’s really that fucked up. No mention of the fact that the “democratically” elected President was a Putin puppet, or that he shot people who were protesting, which is what led to the coup in the first place. Facts like that are too inconvenient for OECD to deal with.

    That is utter BS Shawn – strangely enough it is normal for a country that borders another country, that has a 1200 year shared history to have a close relationship with that country until..

    Satanically evil people from over the ocean pour lots of money into corrupting that country to turn in an effort it against its neighbour to detriment of its people, who suffer greatly due to the wicked games of the rich and powerful who seek their own enrichment and power.

    There is a day of judgement Shawn and the architects of this human catastrophe will be held to account for their sins

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  114. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Andrei, on a hotline to the Holy Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church, eh.?

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  115. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “There is a day of judgement Shawn and the architects of this human catastrophe will be held to account for their sins”

    Putin better start repenting now then. The Ukraine is his mess, and his mess alone.

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  116. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “What is the single greatest cause of Ukraine’s tragic strife, the primary cause of so much grief in the region and beyond? Take a look back at the Euromaidan timeline. Think how it began, this latest round of deadly instability featuring tanks, live gunfire, kidnappings, deaths, the state tweeting sinister mass threats – with lots worse to come. This time it began because President Viktor Yanukovych pushed through laws to criminalize demonstrations, in order to prevent a repeat of the first round. What triggered the first round of demonstrations? The greatest Lord of Misrule in our time: Vladimir Putin.”

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/melikkaylan/2014/01/23/go-ahead-say-it-putin-destabiliized-ukraine/

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  117. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,760 comments) says:

    ShawnLH says at 12:30 pm

    introduce OECD to my family.

    East European refugees perhaps? I know beggars can’t be choosers but why did New Zealand let so many East European refugees in after the war? Oh, I’ve answered my own question.

    On the plus side remember this. That’s right, some small part of GoldenEye is based on the truth:
    Repatriation of Cossacks after World War II

    New Zealand through its allies in the UK and the US are more than capable selling East European refugees down the river when it suits.

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  118. Andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    Putin better start repenting now then. The Ukraine is his mess, and his mess alone

    No its not Shawn, Russia has been keeping Ukraine afloat for years, the USA has been whispering anti Russian poison to West Ukrainians for years and when Putin increased Ukraine’s gas subsidies and gave them a 15 billion loan to get them out of the crap last November the USA engineered a coup to instal an anti Russian Government which considering the large percentage of the population that has Russian ties and is economically dependent on Russia was a recipe for a civil war.

    Which is what has happened of course.

    This is a humanitarian catastrophe which Russia has been trying to resolve peacefully and which the psychopaths in the US State department have been sabotaging each step of the way

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  119. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,805 comments) says:
    July 18th, 2014 at

    Russia also participated in that but the Cossacks were rather unwise to aid and abet the Nazi regime given the context of the times.!

    A useful book on the subject,

    http://www.amazon.com/Bloodlands-Europe-Between-Hitler-Stalin/dp/046503147

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  120. muggins (3,828 comments) says:

    It’s all on tape, Russian speaking separatists shot down the Malaysian airliner under the mistaken impression it was a Ukranian military aircraft. First of all you hear them congratulating themselves for shooting down the plane, then it’s shit, we made a mistake.
    Putin is blaming the Ukraine President because he says he escalated the conflict.
    The Malaysian airliner should not have been flying over that area, other airlines had altered their flight plans so as to avoid it.

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  121. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Putin better start repenting now then. The Ukraine is his mess, and his mess alone.

    Confirmation that a US-backed neo-nazi party has been handed key positions within the newly formed Ukrainian government illustrates the fact that the Euromaidan uprising was a contrived coup d’etat and has very little to do with freedom and democracy.

    http://www.infowars.com/us-backed-neo-nazi-party-given-key-roles-in-ukrainian-government/

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  122. Paulus (2,707 comments) says:

    The so called Pro Russian rebels in the Ukraine are actually highly trained Russian Spetznatt soldiers, there to cause mayhem to the Ukraine as part od Putin’s deliberate attempt to revive the USSR as much as he can.
    They are rebels who will do whatever without Moscow direct instructions to cause as much trouble as possible, like the Crimea.
    Probably like many Russian soldiers drunk and drugged.
    They want to annex Eastern Ukraine back to the USSR because they are being paid to do so.

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  123. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, such commendably “reputable ” links you choose from dis info wars Alex Jones the Prince of Paranoia .!,

    http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/alex-jones/

    and his key methodology that will be so familiar to you ,

    “One important issue I’ve found when researching Alex Jones is that he sees what he believes and not the other way around. Meaning he wants to see something so he sees it, instead of what’s actually happening.”

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  124. Bingo99 (94 comments) says:

    So, Andrei is a complete fucking loon. As if we didn’t know, this clusterfuck of a tragedy only confirms it. I’d assume he was a Russian plant but he’s too obviously delusional and willingly thick for even the inept Russian spy agency.

    Lance above said it best – “Someone gave a monkey a gun and now it’s butt covering time”. Russia armed these separatists. It has troops on Ukrainian soil directing them. These people are yahoos on the back of utes being manipulated from Moscow. And what happens when you put sophisticated weaponry in the hands of yahoos? Gigantic tragedies like this.

    EAD keeps justifying his conspiracies by claiming their “over the shoulder” launched missiles. They’re not. You’re wrong. No one’s claiming that other than you to fit your nutjob theories.

    Ukraine looks to the west and sees wealthy, functioning and democratic societies. Imperfect, yes, but overall pretty decent. It looks to Russia and says a collapsing, despotic theocracy with no prospect of things getting better, horrific injustice and a miserable existence. It chooses the western approach. Russia (Putin) throws a tantrum, orchestrates the separatist movement (remember the recording between Russian troops of how much the election result will be pro-separatist two weeks before the election? 89 % they said. Sure enough, the result was 89% – i.e. bullshit). They feed them with weaponry and now nearly 300 people die because of these yahoos.

    Fuck Putin. Fuck Russia. And Andrei and all you conspiracy theorists can seriously go fuck yourselves.

    I fully expect this post to be deleted, but it had to be said.

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  125. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “I fully expect this post to be deleted, but it had to be said.”

    I hope not, because you are spot on.

    In better times we knew how to deal with traitors and apologists for our enemies. Sadly now we have to put up with them ranting on blogs.

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  126. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    “Confirmation that a US-backed neo-nazi party has been handed key positions within the newly formed Ukrainian government”

    Got any evidence for that? And no, infowars is not evidence. And yes, I do get to choose what is or is not valid evidence, because unlike you I’m not a certifiable nutjob.

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  127. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    “And yes, I do get to choose what is or is not valid evidence, because unlike you I’m not a certifiable nutjob.”

    That must be why you keep lying about the evidence.

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  128. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    So, let’s look at the actual evidence of our rabid anti-American conspiracy theorists so far.

    We have:

    A quote from a dead Nazi.

    Andrei’s Kremlin propaganda.

    And now one of Ugly’s hilariously silly web sites that promotes alien invasion theories.

    Oh yeah, these folks are seriously credible! :)

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  129. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    But Ugly Truth evidence is evidence and nothing to do with Alex jones say so.Begin gain it you would with some solid hard facts.

    https://www.metabunk.org/threads/alex-jones-debunked.1029/

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  130. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Back in December, around the same time that top U.S. diplomat Victoria Nuland announced that the United States had invested $5 billion dollars to help Ukrainians achieve a new form of government, Senator John McCain met with Svoboda Party leader Oleh Tyahnybok, sharing the stage with him at an event during which McCain gave the United States’ blessing for the opposition revolt.

    http://www.infowars.com/us-backed-neo-nazi-party-given-key-roles-in-ukrainian-government/

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  131. Lance (2,712 comments) says:

    @ShawnLH

    Things would be boring around here without the loons. I couldn’t make up more twisted stuff than these guys come out with.
    Variety is the spice of life as the saying goes.

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  132. G152 (418 comments) says:

    It takes a trained crew to maintain, aim and fire such a ground to air system.
    I suspect that the Russian military is ‘volunteering’ to join the rebels

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  133. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    Ugly may be on to something.

    Around 1684 an English villager was seen engaging in occult rituals to raise up the anti-Christ.

    It can now be revealed that this villager was a direct ancestor to Bob Dale, a man who was photographed on the very same street in Chicago that Obama had walked down, only two years previously!

    Clearly Bob had channeled the occult magic of his ancestor to infect Obama with the anti-Christ virus (now being mass produced and bottled by the CIA).

    Obama then went on to personally invade the Ukraine!

    It’s all there folks, if you just swallow the red pill!

    More will be revealed later on http://www.conspiracytheoriesfordummies.com.

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  134. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    I couldn’t make up more twisted stuff than these guys come out with.

    UKRAINE Regime Change: Nuland Admits US Invested $5 Billion To “Assist” Democracy 13Dec2013

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  135. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth the facts are there are equally powerful neo fascist organization in Putin’s Russia and its’ a problem all over Europe, not all limited to the Ukraine . The facts are that Svoboda holds a small mandate in the Ukrainian parliament . There is absolutely no evidence that the vast majority of the Ukarainian government are not fascist or Nazis that Kremlin based propaganda would like you and Jones believe.
    An article here that does full justice to the complexity of Ukrainian politics and their national aspirations.

    http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/04/01/behind-russias-neo-nazi-propaganda-campaign-

    and ,

    http://www.frontlinedefenders.org/

    From russia with hate, the rise of Neo Nazism in Putin’s Russai

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  136. SJM (84 comments) says:

    Andrei (2,475 comments) says:
    July 18th, 2014 at 9:06 am
    You know Stephieboy anyone who is half awake knows that the USA has been trying to provoke a major conflict with Russia for nearly a year now and why they want to do this

    And if this incident provides the causus belli it will be bad for all of us and our children regardless of who did it.

    The USA is collapsing and its leaders are panicking, this has been obvious for some time now – they might well perceive a major war as their way out
    ,……,_____________________________

    Load of garbage. If the US attacks Russia the Russians will retaliate with an immediate overwhelming nuclear strike and the US will do the same five minutes after detecting the launch. This is of course why it won’t, and never has, happen. Nuclear weapons are exactly why a repeat of WW1 won’t happen, push a nuclear armed nation too far and you must calculate the odds of permanent obliteration

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  137. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,760 comments) says:

    You can trust America:

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  138. Lucia Maria (2,651 comments) says:

    Pro-Russian rebels discuss the shooting down of the Malaysian Airlines airliner

    Idiots. They think that the passenger plane was up there in the sky because it was dropping spies.

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  139. muggins (3,828 comments) says:

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/phone-call-between-rebels-and-russian-intel-suggests-missile-strike-malaysia-airlines-ns#k

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  140. edhunter (554 comments) says:

    A bit like a hunter going deer shooting, not identifying his target properly & pulling the trigger. OK the consequences are a little more extreme but the result is the same. Families grieving & some dumb shmuck putting his hand up & saying I’m bad.

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  141. ShawnLH (6,611 comments) says:

    The transcript of the phone call between the Russian separatists and Russian military intelligence officials.

    “Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo.

    Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?

    IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. It’s smoking.

    VG: How many minutes ago?

    IB: About 30 minutes ago.

    Well, that is pretty damning evidence. It was pro-Russian separatists and the Russians know it.

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/phone-call-between-rebels-and-russian-intel-suggests-missile-strike-malaysia-airlines-ns#k

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  142. mara (769 comments) says:

    Lucia, not “dropping” spies but “delivering” them. Much is lost in translation. BTW if this shoot was really an unintended cockup with fools in charge of toys like ground to air missiles, I have little confidence that similar fools will not, sooner or later, cockup with the nuclear toy. I worry.

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  143. PaulL (5,446 comments) says:

    @mara: someone cocking up with a nuclear toy would be spectacularly bad, no doubt about that. But it wouldn’t mean the planet ceases to be liveable – remember that we’ve had nuclear weapons detonated before in Japan, and the areas that those weapons were detonated in are now liveable. It’s certainly not a great thing, but it sometimes feels to me like people worry about nuclear weapons as if they are somehow unimaginably bad. They’re bad, but not unimaginably so.

    Chemical and biological weapons are also very bad, Syria and Iraq have both demonstrated what an unscrupulous leader can do with those, and the descriptions of the agony those murdered with them went through is also awful. It now turns out, surface to air missiles are also incredibly bad things that can impact an incredible number of people (no doubt the families of those killed when the US left their weapons system on automatic on USS Vincennes were similarly incredulous and surprised that a civilian airliner could be accidentally targeted).

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  144. CharlieBrown (1,054 comments) says:

    Unfortunately the Europeans have their heads so far up their arse they can see their tonsils and will not see fit to do anything about this. And Barrack Chamberlain Obama will let this one slide to appease a tyrant.

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  145. Longknives (4,953 comments) says:

    Wow- Top work One Network News.
    A plane has been shot down with potentially a couple of New Zealanders and thirty-odd Aussies on board..
    BUT WAIT! The partner of the girl who won the NZ Mastershef Cooking Show flew Malaysian Airlines only the day before! Shock Horror! “Close Call for Chelsea” That’s what us Kiwis care about..
    Pathetic effort TVNZ. Fucking Pathetic. Get your priorities right and stop pandering to the Womans Day crowd..

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  146. EAD (1,450 comments) says:

    Very good read below – perhaps before “certain” people coming to “certain” conclusions about the involvement of this rebel or that, the key questions one should ask before casting blame, is why did the pilot divert from his usual flight plan, why did he fly above restricted airspace, and just what, if any instructions, did Kiev air control give the pilot in the minutes before the tragic explosion?

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/was-flight-mh-17-diverted-over-restricted-airspace

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  147. mikenmild (12,340 comments) says:

    I wonder if this will lead Putin to review his support for the so-called ‘separatists’, who are really just an armed bunch of criminals. Well armed, by Russia.

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  148. mikenmild (12,340 comments) says:

    Ha! Well of course zerohedge would have the full truth!

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  149. Scott1 (588 comments) says:

    The Ukranians seem to have done a good job with their – “look its them, here is the evidence”.

    the Russian on the other hand appear to be just insulting our intelligence with their clumsy attempts to cover up the murder of 295 people.

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  150. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21607851-setting-up-rivals-imf-and-world-bank-easier-running-them-acronym

    FOR years the BRICS countries have insisted they are more than an acronym. To dispel any lingering doubts, the leaders of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa, who gathered in the Brazilian city of Fortaleza for their sixth annual summit on July 15th, announced the creation of two financial institutions: the New Development Bank (NDB) to finance infrastructure and “sustainable development” projects, with $50 billion in capital to start with, and the $100 billion Contingent Reserve Arrangement (CRA), to tide over members in financial difficulties.

    On the surface, the NDB and the CRA, which must still be approved by the five countries’ parliaments, look like upstart rivals to the World Bank and the IMF, together the cornerstone of the post-war economic order.

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  151. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    http://www.eturbonews.com/48079/ukraine-air-traffic-controller-suggests-kiev-military-shot-down-

    Jul 17, 2014

    ETN received information from an air traffic controller in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

    This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board.

    The air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down.

    Military air traffic controllers in internal communication acknowledged the military was involved, and some military chatter said they did not know where the order to shoot down the plane originated from.

    Obviously it happened after a series of errors, since the very same plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar.

    Radar screen shots also show an unexplained change of course of the Malaysian Boeing. The change of course took the aircraft directly over the Eastern Ukraine conflict region.

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  152. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    The ETN report has no credibility – would a Spanish civilian air traffic controller really have sources in the Ukraine military?

    A real air traffic controller would have known that the course change was due to weather conditions.

    The air space was, at the time, only restricted to civilian flights below 30,000 feet.

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  153. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    The most ambitious of all the theories is that the Ukrainians were trying to shoot down Putin’s plane and got the wrong one. Except of course all the evidence points to a surface to air missile attack from within the separatist held territory.

    The only details to emerge are

    1. whether any Ukrainian group of “separatists had the capacity to use this missile system – odds on the perps were born in Russia and are currently serving in the Russian military.

    2. the source of the weaponry – Russia or equipment taken from the Ukrainian military.

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  154. itstricky (2,021 comments) says:

    Ha! Well of course zerohedge would have the full truth!

    Here’s a (conspiracy) theory for you.

    The truth of a page is inversely proportional to the number of dating ads it contains.

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  155. itstricky (2,021 comments) says:

    KB now appears to contain dating ads. Well, for me, at least.

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  156. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,760 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria says at 3:59 pm

    Pro-Russian rebels discuss the shooting down of the Malaysian Airlines airliner

    Oops:

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  157. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    OECD, you could have checked the comments made in response to the claims in the video.

    The one by ColdWarWarriors and one made in elaboration by oposszum impresszum (expand it to see it all).

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  158. BlairM (2,340 comments) says:

    Whoever did this, it’s a terrible tragedy. If it was the rebels, I’m sure they didn’t wake up that day expecting to shoot down a civilian airliner. However, I am very skeptical of their capacity to shoot at, and hit, a plane travelling 900kph at nine kilometers above the earth. That requires some pretty heavy gear. Is that something they possess? Rebel groups don’t generally have that sort of thing. That’s the domain of government armed forces.

    I’m not ruling out the rebels did it, I’m just skeptical based on the facts at hand.

    The hysteria from some commentators on here is quite ridiculous. Just taking an anti-Russian position no matter how ridiculous, then calling anyone who questions it a propagandist for Putin. What garbage. The pro-Russian folk in Ukraine have never been the problem here – the democratically elected government decided to change its policy, and instead of just voting them out next time, the fascists and Uniates decided that they were going to mount an insurrection. And then the West supports this nonsense – they support the bad guys! I don’t blame the rebels for arming themselves and defending themselves against people determined to suppress their faith and their political voice.

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  159. Dave Mann (1,240 comments) says:

    I am amazed when reading all the news reports that nobody seems to be calling this incident for what it is: a blatant act of war by Russia.

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  160. Lucia Maria (2,651 comments) says:

    Separatists said to have had anti-aircraft training in Russia:

    The United States has gathered a significant body of evidence that Ukrainian separatists have been trained on Russian territory in recent weeks to fire anti-aircraft missiles, according to American military and intelligence officials who have raised alarms over the reports.

    Among other weapons, U.S. officials said the separatists have been trained in using mobile anti-aircraft batteries — missile systems that could be moved around on vehicles and are suspected of having been used in the downing of a Malaysia Airlines jet on Thursday.

    Air Force Gen. Philip Breedlove, the U.S. commander of NATO forces in Europe, said late last month that there was clear evidence that Ukrainian rebels were being trained on Russian territory on how to operate “vehicle-borne” anti-aircraft batteries.

    “We have not seen any of the air-defense vehicles across the border yet, but we’ve seen them training in the western part of Russia,” he said at a Pentagon news conference.

    Two weeks later, a Ukrainian AN-26 military cargo plane was hit by a surface-to-air missile while flying at 21,000 feet — an attack that U.S. and Ukrainian government officials blamed on the Russia-backed rebels. Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, with nearly 300 civilians aboard, was struck by another missile at an altitude of 33,000 feet, according to U.S. and Ukrainian officials.

    Kirby said U.S. officials had “very strong evidence” that the Malaysia Airlines flight was struck by an SA-11 missile fired from a spot along the Russian-Ukrainian border, but the question of “who pulled the trigger” remained uncertain. He noted that Russian military advisers and mercenaries have been helping the rebels on Ukrainian territory.

    “Whether it was a Russian military unit that did it or a separatist unit that did it, we just don’t know,” he said.

    In addition, the Ukrainian Interior Ministry released a video purporting to show rebels moving an SA-11 missile battery out of eastern Ukraine and into Russia. The launcher appeared to be missing one of its missiles. The authenticity of the video could not be independently verified.

    James O. Poss, a retired Air Force major general, said the SA-11 was a sophisticated anti-aircraft system that relies on advanced datalinks to coordinate its radar and its missile launcher. “It would require training and fairly skilled operators to use,” he said.

    The entire system can be moved from site to site on large vehicles, but its size makes it difficult to conceal. Several amateur videos purporting to show the SA-11 in eastern Ukraine have been posted on the Internet.

    Poss said the anti-aircraft battery would require regular maintenance and a steady supply of replacement parts, something that the rebels would be unlikely to provide on their own. “You’re not going to drive that kind of thing around the roads of eastern Ukraine for months without needing spare parts from Russia,” he said.

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  161. Lucia Maria (2,651 comments) says:

    Dave,

    I am amazed when reading all the news reports that nobody seems to be calling this incident for what it is: a blatant act of war by Russia.

    No one is ready for that yet, as it would require retaliation. There’s still quite a bit of room for diplomacy, anyway.

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  162. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Dave Mann and Blair M,

    These two reports indicate otherwise . Voice of Russia reporting an Ukrainian air to surface missle facility falling to rebel hands ,
    http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-takes-control-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installa

    And here the Doensk rebels on their own admission shooting down two Ukrainian military transport air craft . The third happening to be Flight M17.?

    http://www.vox.com/2014/7/18/5914139/ukrainian-rebels-shot-down-two-planes-in-the-last-month

    The circumstantial evidence is very strong pointing to the Rebels, but we suspend final judgment until say the Putin government and Kiev agree to a UN based fact finding commission.

    No hysteria here .

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  163. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    I see the Russians have secured the black boxes and taken them to Moscow.

    They will naturally speedily surrender them to their rightful owners Malaysian Airlines and the Malaysian government.?

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/17/mh17-black-box-sent-to-moscow-for-investigation.html

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  164. Scott1 (588 comments) says:

    OECD,
    you should consider the simple explanations before you move on to the ridiculous ones.

    The video contains all sorts of verifiable information that implies it would not be made before shooting the plane down, or it will be easy for Russians to show lots of errors.

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  165. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    BlairM, wrong on so many points.

    The separatists had a SA 11 battery capable of shooting down a plane to 70,000 feet, not just 30,000 feet. They got one from Ukraine military stocks and were seen with one in the area just prior to the plane going down.

    The “separatists” are now very well armed – and most seem to be Russian born. The only thing lacking appears to be aircraft of their own.

    What faith and political voice is the Ukraine government suppressing in east Ukraine? You object to civilian protest in the streets and foreign support for their democratic right to do this when the former government betrayed its election mandate, then say that separatists are just defending their political voice when they take up arms against the recently elected government.

    The only explanation you give from your blatant double standard is to associate those in Ukraine wanting the laws and political order of the EU for their country with being fascists. It’s not very compelling.

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  166. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Comments on the video link above

    ColdWarWarriors
    14 hours ago
     
    Dahboo, we have to be careful with time stamps, different time zones can give different time stamps, remember what happend with the Damascus false flag with time stamps from the previous day before the attack took place turned out to be different time zones.

    27

    oposszum impresszum
    4 hours ago
     
    Just to make sure that my comment won’t get lost, I post it here: you are kind of right, the reason is actually a YouTube bug. Here’s a short description how to check my statement:
    1. First of all, you should find a video metadata viewer and a YouTube downloader. (See my comments on this later.)
    2. Find any video on your computer, or record one.
    3. Login to YouTube and upload the video.
    4. Once it is uploaded, copy the link of it, for example, for this video, it is BUSTED! Ukraine Caught Trying to ‘Frame Russia’ for Shooting Down Malaysia Flight MH17!.
    5. Now, download the newly uploaded video, and examine its metadata.

    What you’ll find is that, in UTC time zone (Google it if you don’t know what is the current UTC time), it shows that the video was created nearly exactly one day before the actual upload time, independent from the actual creation.

    So, finally, about software: I can’t really recommend anything. You should make sure, however, that you download the video from googlevideo.com (that is the ACTUAL host of youtube, anything else gets converted). As far as I know, keepvid dot com is a good solution, however, I’m not 100% sure. For viewing metadata, I used a linux-only tool, named avprobe, but there probably are some good software for Windows, too.

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  167. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    An interesting development ,

    Investigators Are Denied Full Access to Begin Crash Probe
    OSCE Chairman Says Some Monitors Were Blocked From Site of Malaysia Airlines Crash

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/investigators-seek-clarity-to-begin-malaysia-air-crash-probe-1405689426?tesla=y&mg=reno64-wsj&url=http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304223004580037034154580498.html

    The monitors were greeted by armed menacing and what to be appeared some drunk rebels . We may never get to the bottom of this with this kind of thing and the Willingness of Moscow to cooperate fully with an international Commission of Enquiry.

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  168. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,760 comments) says:

    Yeah, blocked from site stephieboy. Try again.

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  169. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741173

    MOSCOW, July 17. /ITAR-TASS/. Ukraine’s armed forces dispatched the Buk anti-aircraft missile system battalion to the area of the city of Donetsk on Wednesday, a well-informed source said referring to the data recording system.

    Another battalion of the same weapons is said to be in the process of embarkation in the city of Kharkiv, northwest of Donetsk, the source said adding that the aircraft at an altitude of over 10,000 meters could be shot down only with the weapons of the S-300 or Buk (Beech) missile systems.

    In the meantime, militias of the self-proclaimed republics of Donetsk and Luhansk have said they do not possess armament systems of this class.

    Militias of the self-proclaimed republics in Ukraine’s east are not armed with the Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, the press service of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People’s Republic said in comments on the Ukrainian authorities’ statements about a possible involvement of the Donetsk and Luhansk militias to the downing of the Malaysian plane.

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  170. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    http://rt.com/news/173976-mh17-crash-questions-ukraine/

    Russia’s Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov:

    ‘Malaysia Airlines Crash Ukraine-10 questions Russia wants Ukraine to answer’

    2. Can Kiev explain in detail how it uses Buk missile launchers in the conflict zone? And why were these systems deployed there in the first place, seeing as the self-defense forces don’t have any planes?

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  171. mikenmild (12,340 comments) says:

    ‘the self-defense forces’. LOL

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  172. Andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    ‘the self-defense forces’. LOL

    That’s what they are Mikemild – they are trying to stop Godless Westerners from stealing their country

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  173. mikenmild (12,340 comments) says:

    They are terrorist thugs armed and encouraged by a hostile neignbouring state trying to secede without subscribing to any democratic process.

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  174. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,760 comments) says:

    Here are the real terrorist thugs mikenmild, killing Non-westerners, i.e. Slavs, with Grad missiles.

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  175. Andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    They are terrorist thugs armed and encouraged by a hostile neignbouring state trying to secede without subscribing to any democratic process.

    you a just ignorant Mikenmild – probably never heard of Ukraine until the ?Americans stole it by toppling an elected Government and putting a Romanian Jew in charge of it to sign away its sovereignty to the IMF.

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  176. mikenmild (12,340 comments) says:

    Oh, It’s all a Jewish plot, is it?

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  177. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Andre, a Romanian Jew.? The last word is the interesting one. You have a problem with it .?

    and this is relevant,

    http://www.salon.com/2012/03/05/was_russias_election_rigged/

    A favoured pass time in that part of the world.?

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  178. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    UglyTruth , 10 questions that Kremlin want answered .?

    Will they be puting those to the separatist rebels too.?

    I very much doubt so .!

    Question 2. the facts are Voice of Russia reported the rebels had captured Ukraine anti aircraft missile launchers much earlier.!

    http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-takes-control-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installa

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  179. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    The SA 11 was seen in the area held by the “separatists” prior to the plane going down.

    As for why the Ukraine military would have SA 11 with them in East Ukraine – they have mobilised to an area close to the Russian border and they are then vulnerable to attack from Russian air forces as soon as Russia chooses to get involved. Of course they have air defence capability with them for this eventuality.

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  180. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Andrei, Ukrainians in the streets is the Americans in action. An election held is Americans selecting a new President. The only mind controlled puppet here seems to be yourself.

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  181. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    “The Security Service of Ukraine has released a recording of what it says are conversations involving a rebel fighter named ‘Bes’, Russian Colonel Vasyl Mykolaiovych Geranin and Cossack military leader Mykola Kozitsyn discussing the downing of a Malaysia Airlines jet over eastern Ukraine. The transcript with this video was obtained independently by the Guardian.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/18/mh17-recording-russian-colonel-rebels-discuss-disaster-video

    I believe there will likely never be an Independent investigation. Putin and the Kremlin will not permit it re above .

    Interesting that my Voice of Russia link that shows and describes the Ukraine Anti aircraft missile launcher captured earlier by the Rebels is now been deleted.

    By whom and for what reasons.?

    Obvious.!

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  182. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,760 comments) says:

    More video of the OSCE you know where. Oops.

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  183. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Now where are the black boxes now I wonder,? Originally reported to be taken to Moscow. Will they be returned intact to Malaysian Airlines untampered.??

    OECD, translation please and original source.?

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  184. wikiriwhis business (4,192 comments) says:

    “We may never get to the bottom of this with this kind of thing and the Willingness of Moscow to cooperate fully with an international Commission of Enquiry.”

    Obviously and without doubt a conspiracy

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  185. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Andrei, how is someone born in Odessa and a member of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church a Romanian Jew?

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  186. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    wiki, what conspiracy exactly are you referring to.?

    It is likely that Putin and the Rebels may have something to hide but that does not necessarily equate to a conspiracy. The deletion of my Voice of Russia link ‘s damning content suggests that.

    Yes.?

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  187. mara (769 comments) says:

    What will happen now? Not much, I suspect. Europe won’t poke Putin too hard because of their need for fuel and Obama will not poke him harder, aware that without Putin’s (however meagre) assistance, his efforts to rid Iran of its mass destruction materials will be stalled, or over. Pragmatism will win.

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  188. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    According to the Prosecutor General of Ukraine Vitaliy Yarema:

    “Members of illegal armed units have not seized air defense launchers of the Ukrainian Armed Forces in Donetsk, Ukrainian Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema said.”(Kiev Post)

    also

    “After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the president that terrorists do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and S-300,” (quoted by Itar-Tass).

    and yet:

    Ukrainian Minister of Internal Affairs Mr. Anton Gerashchenko stated categorically that the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 MH17:

    “had been downed by an air defense missile system Buk”

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/was-ukraines-ministry-of-interior-behind-the-downing-of-malaysian-airlines-mh17/5391909

    10:21 – 17 de jul. de 2014

    Kiev Authorities, trying to make it look like an attack by pro-Russians.

    10:25 – 17 de jul. de 2014

    [Miitary] has taken control of Air Traffic Control in Kiev.

    10:35 – 17 de jul. de 2014

    They are threatening us in the control tower at Kiev airport.

    11:48 – 17 de jul. de 2014

    The B777 plane flew escorted by Ukraine jet fighter until 2 minutes before disappearing from the radar.

    11:54 – 17 de jul. de 2014

    2 jet fighters flew very close minutes before; wasn’t downed by a fighter.

    12:01 – 17 de jul. de 2014

    Shot down by Kiev. Here we know it and military air traffic control also.

    13:31 – 17 de jul. de 2014

    Military confirm It was Ukraine, but still does not know where the order came from.

    15:26 – 17 de jul. de 2014

    The report indicates where the missile had come out [from], and specified it is not from the rebel areas.

    16:06 – 17 de jul. de 2014

    Military commanders here (ATC) control tower, confirm that the missile is from the Ukranian army.

    http://aanirfan.blogspot.co.nz/2014/07/aids-researchers-killed-in-ukraine-air.html

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  189. Scott1 (588 comments) says:

    I wonder if some of the posters above also feature on alien abduction and moon landing threads. Or if they are just Russian specific.

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  190. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, why not post the part about the claim that Mossad control the Interior Ministry of Ukraine and this was their operation.

    The reports identifying the presence of SA 11 weaponry in the separatist held area are so damn inconvenient to the post shooting claim they did not have the capability.

    For good reason the Russians have a long standing reputation for anti-Jewish conspiracy theories – and that connects them to all sorts white racists, neo Nazis, Islamists and blood libel Christianity.

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  191. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    And I could add the anti-American left who by habit oppose those whom the USA is seen to be supporting.

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  192. Lucia Maria (2,651 comments) says:

    Mara,

    I wonder… Tony Abbott seems pretty upset by the whole thing. But then Australia is not that powerful, in the scheme of things.

    All the interesting stuff will happen while we are asleep.

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  193. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    The reports identifying the presence of SA 11 weaponry in the separatist held area are so damn inconvenient to the post shooting claim they did not have the capability.

    Fair comment. At this stage my position is based more on the level of nefarium that has been directed against Russian interests in past months, and the Russian move away from US backed currency (as a possible motivation for blaming Russia for MH17).

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  194. mara (769 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria, Abbott can be as upset as he likes. My point was that “upsetness” is not relevant; nor is power. Most of the civilised world is upset by this but it either will not or cannot do anything about it. Economic relations are ultimately more important than distaste. Watch this situation disappear like MH370. We will soon move on to the next atrocity. Sorry.

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  195. cha (4,138 comments) says:

    Excuses excuses…

    http://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/07/18/russia-mh17-ukraine-crash/

    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/kremlin-backed-insurgents-now-claim-malaysia-airlines-plane-was-carrying-corpses-356780.html

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  196. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    http://www.jimstonefreelance.com/

    As I suspected, when a major Australian paper reported that 100 top aids researchers were on MH17, the story was a hoax. As it turns out, the official airline serving the conference is Emirates Airlines, which is offering steep discounts on air travel to the conference, and is listed as the official airline serving the conference. This puts the 100 dead microbiologists on A SINGLE MALAYSIA AIRLINES FLIGHT that in reality left too early anyway into the HOAX category, FIGURE THE ODDS.

    Plane shoot down: approximately 14:15 UTC. Israeli assault on Gaza: 14:00 UTC. See a connection there? And when you consider the fact that it took time to confirm the downing, the two times actually match even more closely. Israel’s assault on Gaza is viewed badly by the world community, what better way to bury it in the news than a plane shoot down, complete with the threat of a war with Russia?

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  197. mikenmild (12,340 comments) says:

    So the pictures from the AIDS conference in Australia were part of an elaborate hoax, Ugly?
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/10284059/Top-AIDs-scientists-among-those-killed-on-MH17

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  198. stephieboy (3,519 comments) says:

    Ugly Truth, Oh dear this from your most reputable of links,

    “MH17 all but completely proven to be flight 370″

    And of course the downing of of M17 is a Mossad and jewish Plot with the claim of timing of Israel assault.?

    A major Australian Daily.?? Which one. Sydney Morning Herald , Melbourne Age . The Australian.??

    I think the flight manifest will show other wise but you can begin by naming some of the alleged 100 top aids researches and see if they tally.

    I see the spurious Uncensored is mentioned . which of its many utterly absurd claims , Obama was the product of an Illuminati Breeding program.

    Sigh.!!

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  199. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    So the pictures from the AIDS conference in Australia were part of an elaborate hoax, Ugly?

    Of course not, that is not what Jim Stone was saying.

    What he said was that the official airline serving the conference is Emirates Airlines, who were offering “steep discounts”, not Malaysian Airlines.
    So that would make it pretty improbable that 100 top AIDS researchers were on flight MH17.

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  200. Manolo (14,166 comments) says:

    As usual, the resident jihadist turns up wearing his Sunday, triple-thickness tin foil suit and hat.

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  201. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    Most likely some of the 100 researchers flying to Oz were on this flight.

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  202. UglyTruth (4,554 comments) says:

    Apparently 12 thousand researchers are set to arrive in Melbourne, so I guess it’s not that unlikely what a hundred of them chose not to fly with the official airline for the event.

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  203. SPC (5,664 comments) says:

    There were only about 6 on the flight that went down.

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