General Debate 10 July 2014

July 10th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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203 Responses to “General Debate 10 July 2014”

  1. mikenmild (11,776 comments) says:

    First!

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  2. mikenmild (11,776 comments) says:

    On a more substantive note, I thought this was a nice, feel-good story this morning:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10248251/Yachties-rescued-in-wild-seas-off-NZ

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  3. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    Tania Billingsley is understandably annoyed at politicians but I don’t agree with her suggestion John Key should resign (Murray McCully not so sure).

    Key has to keep a separation between his job and any case including the Malaysian diplomat case. But he could step up in general terms and lead a change to a less violent society and a less dangerous environment for women in our society.

    Tania Billingsley steps up and challenges – Key could make a real difference if he chose to lead on this.

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  4. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    How many of you remember the little ‘ditty’ – “The tenth of July – next year” ?

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  5. nasska (11,813 comments) says:

    …”How many of you remember the little ‘ditty’ – “The tenth of July – next year” ?”…..

    And worse Judith….when the 10th July rolled round beer became 8cents for a 7oz glass! :)

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  6. Chris2 (770 comments) says:

    It think it very unwise for Billingsley to have been interviewed by TV3. She really has played into the Malaysian’s hands as they can say they are now not sending the alleged offender back to NZ because he can’t be certain of a fair trial after her media interview, which was very politically motivated.

    Her youthful naivety was demonstrated by her complaining about how the Government allowed the diplomat to leave. Anyone who knows anything about diplomatic status knows diplomats can not be detained or prevented by the host country from leaving.

    One wonders how much influence that Green MP she was in contact with, had in facilitating the interview.

    If the diplomat never faces Court now, it will be Billingsly herself, and the media, who are responsible, after this publicity stunt.

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  7. hj (7,066 comments) says:

    NZIER cite a paper Ortega and Peri 2012
    in it they claim japan could double it’s GDP per capita if they increased their foreign workforce by 10% (12m)

    Second, using our predictors to produce two-stage least-squares estimates of our main specification, we find that the share of immigrants in the population has a significant and robust estimated effecton long-run income per capita. This effect is qualitatively large: a 10 percentage-point difference in the share of foreign born in the population, which is close to the standard deviation in our sample, is associated with differences in income per person by a factor close to 2. If we attach a causal interpretation to this coefficient it would imply that if Japan, with a foreign-born share below 1% in year 2000, adopted a degree of openness to immigration equal to that of the US (about 11% of foreign born in 2000) its long-run income per capita would double. To the contrary, we are unable to establish a robust effect of trade openness once we control for other effects of geography. We also show that our finding of the positive effect of migration is clearly distinct from the effects of early development and institutional quality, which we also document.

    http://ftp.iza.org/dp7325.pdf
    http://nzier.org.nz/static/media/filer_public/7f/5a/7f5a9e43-1128-449e-870d-d7fe5ca5023b/nzier_insight_44_-_migration_february_2014.pdf

    Is there any problem immigration can’t solve!? Weeeeeeeeeee!

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  8. niggly (831 comments) says:

    @ PG, from reading her statement on the TV3 website Tania Billingsley is a proponent of “rape-culture” in which society at large is at fault.

    Whilst I admire her sense of righting wrongs and protecting women and the vulnerable, she has been conditioned to take the view that the actions of the Malaysian diplomat are condoned by others (including the PM and Foreign Minister). This of course is far from the truth.

    It seems like a re-run of the 1970’s feminist viewpoint that “all men are rapists”, so whilst I wish Tania well in her crusade to perfect (an imperfect) society I feel she will loose a lot of support on the way and be seen in a negative light by society in general.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Portals/0/images/TANIA-ESSAY.pdf

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Woman-at-centre-of-Malaysian-diplomat-case-speaks-out/tabid/1771/articleID/352045/Default.aspx

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  9. Tarquin North (361 comments) says:

    Back from Kansas, it’s even worse up here today than it was yesterday. There will be extensive damage, but it’s to wild to go outside or travel anywhere to find out. At least we’ve got power for now.

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  10. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ nasska (10,434 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 8:14 am

    The price of beer didn’t effect me much at the time, although Dad did share the odd shandy with us on occasion, however what I was VERY peeved off with at the time, was that one day I could get 12 bubble gum, and the next day only 10 with my pocket money! It was a travesty of momentous proportions!!

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  11. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  12. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Tarquin North (79 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 8:21 am

    Welcome back. Sorry to hear the homeland is a bit shaken up – perhaps you should have stayed longer with the old wizard.

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  13. Paulus (2,668 comments) says:

    How astonished I was to hear the complainant against the Malaysian now identified as Tania Billingsley on the radio this morning, spouting her bit.
    Am I to assume that the matter now before the Courts is not sub judice ? Did I hear that she is working with a women’s magazine also.
    To listen to Ms Billingsley and her outburst I assume that she is being coached by the Green Party – and Grant Robertson perhaps, and is a potential Green Party candidate.
    I assume she is a University graduate now in the Public Service from the way she uses her comments.
    Of course we know that the balls up within Mfat at very senior level is organised by McCully and Key.
    Now that the mixed media have this as a blunt instrument to bash the Government can there ever be a proper trial.
    Can a jury ever be impartial let alone a judge.
    Cunningham would be a good judge for this one.

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  14. holysheet (427 comments) says:

    I am increasingly getting pissed off with the accusation from the lefts’ namby-pamby idiots that I am the cause of all the ills that are inflicting the down trodden, homeless, bludgers and labour supporters in our society today.

    I do not bash my wife
    I do not rape anyone
    I do not bash and kill young children
    I do not commit burglary and steal from others
    I did not expect others to pay me for having children that I cannot afford to raise myself
    I did not sign the treaty so have no obligation to honour it.
    I did not agree to most of the social changes inflicted upon society by the labour party and their various factions

    I will not apologise for being a white male in my early 60’s and not having done any of the above, I will not be made to feel guilty because of who I am.

    We are constantly being told “it’s societies problem and we should all take responsibility to fix the problem” That is bullshit. Let the perpetrators fix their own problems without trying to pass the buck to us all.

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  15. Nigel Kearney (1,049 comments) says:

    The victim is entitled to compassion and empathy but she is not entitled to have her opinion of Key or McCully’s performance taken any more seriously than the opinion of a random person in the street.

    I am just not a fan of victims and their relatives being given a media platform to spout opinions on matters where their experience doesn’t give them any special insight.

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  16. freemark (617 comments) says:

    I said it when this story broke..there is something very, very fishy about the whole thing. I didn’t see the “Interview” but reports are disturbing. Is this and the “sorry” an example of Labour & Greens publicly fighting over the wimmin’s vote while trying to smear (yet again) the Govt? Any compassion or sympathy I may have had is rapidly dissipating…

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  17. flipper (4,218 comments) says:

    The TV3 programme just (well, almost) scuppered any case that the Police might wish to bring against the Malaysian.

    Stupid….or a planned political assault from the left by the claimed “victim “?

    PG…. Can you not understand that there was nothing that J Key or M McCully said/did / did not / could do on this matter would have made the slightest difference in relation to his immunity and ability to leave NZ. Yes, there could have earlier releases to media, but apart from the alleged “victim” and the self centred media, who cares? It was of no interest to me and thousands of others. As for the stupid female saying that the Malaysian (a lower grade worker, but still accorded diplomatic immunity) should have been kept in NZ. Words fail me. But it shows how low the media will stoop because she had been told that detaining the man in NZ was an impossibility once Malaysia formally rejected the request for waiver. So resignation. Just a dumb statement and request.

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  18. Griff (8,199 comments) says:

    Strangely enough I don’t think that’s a heartwarming story mike
    As a skipper with offshore experience who has done the required training, purchased, modified and equipped a vessel to pass nz category one survey with the intent of voyaging offshore I believe that abandoning a yacht that was still floating and complete apart from a broken rudder is the height of irresponsible behavior.
    You should always step up into your life raft They were lucky that someone was not killed in the rescue when if they battened down and preserved in a few days they would have been able to sail on into port.
    If you are voyaging offshore sufficiently experienced and properly equipped in a suitable vessel a little storm and a minor problem with the loss of rudder should not result in you abandoning your vessel.

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  19. Colville (2,300 comments) says:

    A bloke I went to skool with was born on decimal currency day in ’67 and he was a babe on the Wahine when it down.

    He also had an incredibly hot Mum :-)

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  20. CHFR (235 comments) says:

    Well said holysheet.

    Judith I would not bash the victim of a crime but I do question the wisdom of going to the media before charges have been laid or a trial taken place. If she has been getting advice from any MP then I also question that MP’s fitness for the job.

    It seems to me that we have a lot of activist MP’s who do not seem to care for the rule of law but they are the ones making the laws. History tells us that once the elite are out of step with the majority of the public then the rule of law breaks down. Now this may sound great if you are a student activist but to those of us who live in the real world and are raising children here it is quite frankly scary.

    If anyone has the time or interest I would recommend the History of Rome podccasts, it is a facinating insight into our possible future if these clowns get their way.

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  21. EAD (1,329 comments) says:

    @ Holysheet 8.30am:

    I’m guessing it’s safe to say you don’t Labour, National or the Greens!!

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  22. Colville (2,300 comments) says:

    Griff. I agree. Never leave a big boat for a little one.

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  23. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Nigel Kearney (840 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 8:31 am

    But if she was to criticise a member of another party that would be alright?

    She has not had justice because of mistakes of judgement by the Government, she is perfectly within her right to voice her opinion on the matter in any public forum she wishes, just the same as anyone else has that right, and frequently exercises that right.

    You can hardly expect her to be acting rationally at this time – by all means have a go at the media scum for taking advantage of her – but cut her some slack, she’s been hurt – she’s hitting back.

    I do not agree with her, and have stated many times, McCully should not resign, but he does need to fix the problem. A minister being made to resign should be over extremely serious matters that involve dishonesty or extreme wrong doing. McCully is guilty of no more than expecting someone to do a job competently and not being informed by his staff in a timely manner, when it went wrong. Certainly apologise – which he has done, but no reason to resign.

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  24. fernglas (174 comments) says:

    She didn’t really get in to the subject matter of the complaint so I don’t think a stay in a trial some 18 months away will happen, but it is a worrying trend if complainants are to be placed in front of cameras and treated as if their every word is gospel prior to a trial. It is particularly worrying in this case where the defendant is not even in the country and could not have a proper input into whether the interview should be broadcast. It also gives the Malaysian government a massive out if they want to take it; if they decide he can’t get a fair trial here because of pre-trial publicity they may not send him back, and the complainant will have paradoxically been instrumental in denying herself the justice to which she is undoubtedly entitled. I support her concerns about the process wholeheartedly; she has been treated very badly, but the interests of justice require that concern to be voiced after the trial is over.

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  25. Harriet (5,132 comments) says:

    “……Oh I see, so now its “lets pick on the victim time”. Because the victim isn’t acting like a rational person and in a manner befitting a ‘well adjusted person’ she is going to be now criticised. FFS – she’s a victim, she was almost raped by someone that followed her home and broke into her private dwelling. Of course she isn’t thinking like the rest of us!….”

    A near rape victim in a public forum making ‘timely comments’ Judith?

    It looks a bit contrived to me.

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  26. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Billingsley has become, or maybe was, a porn for the disgusting left. Her claims in the Dom makes the whole thing reeks of political interference, and smells of Goff, Mumblefuck, and Little. I reckon it is a set up.

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  27. Nostalgia-NZ (5,281 comments) says:

    Hi flipper. Isn’t it the case that the Malaysians will not send the diplomat back anyway? I have doubts, increasing now because it was claimed he would be sent back at the beginning of the week. Now the issues continue about his mental state and whether he may be fit to travel – a deliberate connivance perhaps? On the single point however, should McCully not have had more ‘interest’ from the period when he found out until the balloon went up?

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  28. mikenmild (11,776 comments) says:

    How dare she speak out, Harriet. Absolutely outrageous.

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  29. Keeping Stock (10,436 comments) says:

    I agree with Chris2. It is approaching the point where the Malaysian military attache has little chance of a fair trial in front of a jury if he chooses to plead not guilty. I wonder at the wisdom of the 3rd Degree story last night.

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  30. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Harriet (4,448 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 8:46 am

    I realise it may look that way, but she has been through a terrible ordeal. Even a near rape is a horrible experience. He broke into her home with the intention of raping her – do you think she is going to feel safe in her own home for some time to come?

    Our homes should be a place of peace and safety – she has had that removed from her. Of course she wants to hit out – she’s been hurt and her safety compromised and for some time nothing has been done – and what’s more, for a period of time, it looked like nothing would be done. Of course she is angry, and of course she is vulnerable. Especially when media track her down, offer a friendly ear, and tell her they can make it right by telling her story.

    If you want to shoot anyone, have a go at the media – but leave her alone – she is acting in a manner entirely consistent with what she has experienced.

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  31. Keeping Stock (10,436 comments) says:

    @ igm – I think you’ll find that Jan Logie from the Greens is the victim’s go-to MP.

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  32. Brian Smaller (4,026 comments) says:

    She has not had justice because of mistakes of judgement by the Government

    At the end of the Malaysian government did not waive diplomatic immunity for one of it’s nationals. That was established pretty much at the outset. From that moment on the victim would not have got her day in court. And after the interviews etc, she wont ever get it I am thinking because the Malaysian courts/government will just say the guy wont get a fair trial here.

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  33. Harriet (5,132 comments) says:

    CHFR. Cheers for the award winning podcast on Rome .

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  34. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ igm (1,339 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 8:47 am

    She may well be now a ‘pawn’ of the left – but given that it was the ‘right’ that let her down, that is not exactly unexpected, nor unusual. Even the Right, and all their virtues also use pawns to play the game.

    Bugger the innocent public, when there are points to be scored. Such is the disgrace our politicians are.

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  35. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    PG…. Can you not understand that there was nothing that J Key or M McCully said/did / did not / could do on this matter would have made the slightest difference in relation to his immunity and ability to leave NZ.

    Yes, I understand that and have agreed with this a number of times.

    But I think McCully should have been advised of progress, and he should have made sure he was advised. He would then have been able to properly inform Key when it was necessary.

    McCully looked very uncomfortable when he had to front up in Parliament last week, suggesting he was well aware he hadn’t handled it well. He should have known what was happening.

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  36. Scott Chris (6,177 comments) says:

    Oh I see, so now its “lets pick on the victim time”

    No. Victims are not above criticism. Why should they be? This woman has made at least three mistakes:

    1/ She has jeopardised the integrity of the prosecution case against her alleged assailant by commenting publicly before the case has gone to trial.
    2/ She has politicised the handling of this issue.
    3/ She has accepted poor advice.

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  37. Neil (589 comments) says:

    Tania Billingsley should be sympathised with HOWEVER she has become a pawn of the Green Party with that horrible Jan Logie smothering her with anti-National rhetoric. Billingsley is being used by the Greens, a typical tactic of that miserable party.
    I can see an anti-male,anti- National campaign being orchestrated by the Left.
    Like to know if Billingsley has a political background.
    It seems to make the trial a lot more shaky. Typical of the Left, especially the Greens.

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  38. alex Masterley (1,523 comments) says:

    Griff @ 8.36
    I saw your comment and went mmmmm.
    I know Becs Heikelma quite well, and her partner Ben.
    Both are accomplished sailors, blue water and coastal. As it happens I sailed with Becs for about 5 years and have watched her sail as a race officer for the last 10 or so.
    As I understand it the rudder stock sheared off between the bearings. As a consequence the rudder was trying to and succeeding in bashing a hole in the hull. The hull integrity around the rudder when the vessel was abandoned was marginal and getting worse. I very much doubt that the vessel is still floating.
    For what it is worth I think they did the right thing in abandoning the vessel.

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  39. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Keeping stock: Anyone personally involved with Logie would immediately become suspect. This horrible left-wing blot on humanity has the scruples of a rodent, lacking any credibility. This is smelling more like a left-wing set up by the minute.

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  40. nasska (11,813 comments) says:

    ….”McCully looked very uncomfortable when he had to front up in Parliament last week, suggesting he was well aware he hadn’t handled it well.”….

    How can he possibly “handle” anything his scum left leaning bureaucrats haven’t kept him up to speed on?

    I’m no great McCully fan but he & JK are being hung out to dry because of institutional bias within the Public Service.

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  41. stephieboy (3,406 comments) says:

    Argentine 0 Netherlands 0

    2nd half several minutes .Nothing like yesterday .Very tight .

    Neither goalie troubled .So far.!

    But seconds could tip everything over for either side.

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  42. Keeping Stock (10,436 comments) says:

    @ nasska – quite so; and by the same left-leaning bureaucrats who were only too happy to leak confidential information to Phil Goff during the MFAT restructure, including the former Labour Party staffer on secondment to the department.

    Rape or sexual assault are NEVER ok, and Ms Billingsley has my sympathy. However politicians from Labour and the Greens are shamelessly milking her ordeal for all they are worth solely for political purposes, and that is despicable.

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  43. G152 (385 comments) says:

    Tania Billingsley is an activist apparently putting her victimhood into the hand of the greens.

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  44. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    This woman is facebook friends with Jan Logie, under the name Tarn Billingsley, and for a woman who is willing to go public with this most devastating occurance, and seems to be a confessed activist, her on-line profile is very sanitised.

    As a parent, I have nothing but contempt for the sort of behavior that this woman was subjected to, but if she is not deliberately using what has happened for political gain, then the situation has been hijacked by people who have no compunction in doing so.

    The left is looking for another teapot tape moment.

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  45. flipper (4,218 comments) says:

    Good morning Nos…

    Yes, McCully should been more aware of the implications and how such a matter would play out in the media. It is called “risk aversion”, and the Government is endeavouring to adopt it on every issue. On that McCully deserves a good kicking, and I stand to be surprised on two counts: 1. That he did not receive from J Key as good a kicking as Key could give him without pressing too far (there are political realities), and 2. If MFAT ever again allow such matters to be the preserve of the Protocol Division – no matter the nature of any future government.

    On the first matter you raise, I agree that the future is looking cloudy. Legendary MFA secretary George Laking frequently said on matters diplomatic: Issues are never black and white. They are always in shades of grey. So, I suspect that this will drag out (when will it go to trial, if ever?), and in the end it will become too hard for both Governments. TV3/Billingsley just threw an intercept pass to Kuala Lumpur. Cheers!

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  46. Nostalgia-NZ (5,281 comments) says:

    ‘Keeping Stock (10,064 comments) says:

    July 10th, 2014 at 8:50 am

    I agree with Chris2. It is approaching the point where the Malaysian military attache has little chance of a fair trial in front of a jury if he chooses to plead not guilty. I wonder at the wisdom of the 3rd Degree story last night.’

    A Jury is perfectly capable of putting aside what they may have heard about a case before deliberating on it KS. You’re confusing politics with common sense and general knowledge. Many of the most recent trials of public interest have resulted in the Jury being given such warnings – I don’t remember but it may be a requirement in all trials. It’s also nothing to do with the complainant speaking out – if you take that line then it can only lead to a distortion of the process because there is nothing in the law that I know of that prevents a complainant speaking out or going to the Court to be ‘allowed’ to reveal their identity. Taking your track, complainants will be penalised for exercising their right of free speech and no longer be entitled to their day in Court. A bit ‘convenient’ and ‘totalitarian’ KS.

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  47. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Jan Logie, the self proclaimed man hating “lefty, feminist, lesbian” is milking this for all it is worth.
    Now what could go wrong?

    If the Malaysians won’t send the guy back, because of the actions of Logie, Billingsley and the media, she will claim this as evidence of a ‘rape culture’ in New Zealand.
    I she can drag McCully into it all the better.
    Mud sticks.

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  48. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    Coincidentally:

    Jane Patterson ‏@rnzgalleryjane

    The Greens call for the Foreign Minister Murray McCully to stand down until review of MFAT and handling of Malaysian diplomat case completed.

    And they want the review to be extended to include the actions of Minister McCully as well

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  49. jcuknz (704 comments) says:

    I don’t know what is wrong with the ‘ticks’ on this site but are several people syncronising their plus ticks with me to make my one tick appear as three or four more ticks? Puzzling thing is that it doesn’t happen every time so perhaps several people ticking at the same time?

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  50. Griff (8,199 comments) says:

    Note my “suitable” qualifiers.
    The modern plastic overgrown dingy is not a suitable vessel to voyage offshore in the southern pacific in.
    To lightly built to withstand the elements and designed only with a focus on speed in light air.
    When I purchased for offshore I went for a heavy full keel “slow” boat. A long fine rudder is great when going around buoys its a liability offshore as its not supported sufficient when the going gets interesting. It will also stall way before my barn door will

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  51. Kimbo (1,083 comments) says:

    @ niggly

    Whilst I admire her sense of righting wrongs and protecting women and the vulnerable, she has been conditioned to take the view that the actions of the Malaysian diplomat are condoned by others (including the PM and Foreign Minister). This of course is far from the truth.

    Umm, I think that when someone in our executive branch of government (whether they are down the feeding chain or not) gives a back-channel message to the Malaysian Government that we wouldn’t really be disappointed if they continued to maintain diplomatic privilege when they were prepared to waive it…then the alleged actions of this diplomat (including assault and attempted rape) have most certainly been condoned.

    If that has prompted her to become a “crusader” then the executive branch of government only has itself to blame…and it is time it had a good long hard look at itself in the mirror.

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  52. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    jcuknz – I’m not sure how often the ticks auto-refresh but doing your own tick forces a refresh, so if others have also ticked since the last refresh it can jump up by several ticks.

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  53. wreck1080 (3,970 comments) says:

    Tania Billingsley made an awful mistake by going to the media before any potential trial.

    She jeopardises the chances of getting a trial and gives the perception (reality or not) that she is a cog in the green party political machine. That will reduce or eliminate any sympathy people might feel for her.

    The greens and media are making hay out of a sexual crime.

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  54. Komata (1,202 comments) says:

    mm (Shouldn’t you be clearing your desk BTW; it’s only 0935?)

    It’s not (as you well know, I believe) that she spoke out, it’s rather that the ‘timing’ is too convenient, and raises interesting questions about who she has been associating with…

    Something which others might also care to consider: Is the lady making financial profit from all this?

    Appearances on TV3, “Women’s magazine ‘deals’ (if correctly reported), an appearance on Radio Red, a column in the Dom etc. etc. etc.; all things which a girl who suffered a ‘harrowing ordeal’ would not normally care to repeat ad nauseum, unless she had some sort of ‘incentive’ to do so. Ms Billingsley does seem to have made such a remarkable recovery from the experience that one has to wonder; the ’15 minutes of fame’ aspect and all that…

    And in case anybody is wondering: I do not under any circumstances support female abuse, but in respect of this situation, Marcellus’ comment seems curiously appropriate…

    It will be interesting to see what eventuates.

    (BTW mm: Civil Service Morning Tea doesn’t start until 1000, so you’ve got about 20 minutes to sharpen all the pencils on your desk and shuffle some papers; thought you’d like to know)

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  55. hj (7,066 comments) says:

    Shale gas on the rocks?

    Brace for bust

    Lastly comes the International Energy Agency. Its latest report documented a world of diminishing returns for energy investments. Big Oil is spending more but getting less in return.

    It did not suggest that oil or gas production from fracked shale formations would save the day, guarantee independence or even deliver profitable returns.

    It predicted, as energy and financial analyst Gail Tverberg highlighted in a recent blog post, an unlikely outcome: “Meeting long-term oil demand growth depends increasingly on the Middle East, once the current rise in non-OPEC supply starts to run out of steam in the 2020s.” 
When contacted by The Tyee, David Hughes, a fellow of the Post Carbon Institute, offered this comment on recent economic developments for the debt-ridden industry.

    “Although the shale revolution has temporarily increased North American oil and gas production, its longer term sustainability is highly questionable.”

    The hype about “Saudi America” and U.S. “energy independence” is unlikely to be realized and North Americans would be well-advised to plan their energy future in the absence of a fossil fuel bonanza from shale, he said.

    http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-07-01/ailing-shale-gas-returns-force-a-drilling-treadmill

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  56. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Scott Chris (5,847 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 9:08 am

    She may very well have made bad choices, but please, this case was politicised by its very nature, and was politicised by many long before she spoke up. She has also NOT politicised it – she has complained about the people that are in government at the time, that were responsible for making sure the matter was handled proficiently – they didn’t – they messed up, and she is WELL within her rights to state so, and to complain about them. Just because this is an election year, victims of crime should not have to keep quiet when they have received a raw deal.

    You and others are the people politicising it (both left and right) – not her – she’s simply complaining about those that didn’t do their job to an expected standard. The fact they happen to be National is neither here nor there – they are the government of the day that stuffed up. I have no doubt that opportunists from other parties have honed in and are having their say – but when no one else seemed to be addressing her concerns, you cannot blame her for listening to them. Its a trust issue, and the people she trusted to assist her, (the government) let her down.

    The fact that she is speaking up is not at all unusual, she’s been hurt, if not physically, certainly emotionally – and now she’s been revictimised by you thoughtless prats that are making it political and blaming her from fighting for her rights, when no one else seemingly cared (although I realise that was not the case, but you cannot blame her for drawing that conclusion).

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  57. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    It may be that Tania Billingsley is aware of the risks regarding the case (if not someone should have made her aware) and is prepared take that risk in order try and achieve greater good in addressing our awful record of sexual offending.

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  58. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    wreck1080 says:

    “She jeopardises the chances of getting a trial….”

    Now what if this is exactly what they are trying to do?
    Remember we have heard only one side of the story yet.
    A trial might not go the way they want.
    At the moment, without the other side’s story, the activists have the upper hand.

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  59. Kimbo (1,083 comments) says:

    Umm, did she do the right thing in calling in the TV cameras?

    Maybe not.

    But as “the system” let her down in the first place, primarily because of a lack of sunshine, then at least she is taking charge of what she can control in the situation.

    All of life is political. Especially when you think and feel you have been mistreated by the system which, inevitably as per the dictates of human nature, will look after its own concerns in the first instance, rather than undergoing costly and painful reform.

    If that involves Tania Billingsley utilising the support of Jan Logie and the Greens, so be it and good luck to her. I loathe the Greens myself, but nonetheless, they are part of our Parliamentary Opposition who are necessary to make Westminster government work effectively.

    And even if she is a “political operative” as some are suggesting…so what? Bottom line – Mfat should never have traded away her right for justice to be seen and done in New Zealand. That should always be a non-negotiable in the minds of our government, irrespective of soomeone’s religion, race, culture, creed, gender, sexual orientation…or political opinions.

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  60. niggly (831 comments) says:

    @Kimbo, thanks for the reply and your thoughts. If it were the way you described then yes it ain’t good.

    However I don’t believe the executive branch of government (I take you mean Cabinet not MFAT officials?) gave any back-channel messages saying all is well (hence why McCully and John Allen were scrambling last week to work out what went on etc), so I don’t agree the issue played out as you indicated.

    Anyways off to work, I’ll read here when I can but won’t be able to comment!

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  61. stephieboy (3,406 comments) says:

    Argentine 0 Netherlands 0

    Full-time .

    Into extra time.

    Take a break from the mudslinging .Relax and enjoy.!

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  62. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    The Green Party statement:

    McCully ‘should stand down while review considers his actions’

    The Green Party is calling for the review into Foreign Affairs’ handling of allegations of attempted rape by a Malaysian Diplomat to be expanded to cover actions of Ministers, and for the Minister of Foreign Affairs to stand down while the review is being held.

    The review also needs to be conducted by an external agency, not the Ministry whose actions and inactions need to be independently examined.

    “The woman at the centre of these allegations, Tania Billingsley, last night called for Mr McCully to resign, saying he had failed to do his job and that she was still waiting for an apology,” Green Party Co leader Metiria Turei said.

    “I’m not about to argue against Ms Billingsley’s call. If I was the Prime Minster I’d seriously take note of everything she said last night.

    “It is astonishing that Ms Billingsley was still waiting for an apology from anyone in Government yesterday.

    “Mr McCully has said he’d apologised, but an off the cuff apology over the TV doesn’t cut it, especially for a generation that doesn’t even watch it. Mr McCully would never have considered a TV apology good enough for the Prime Minister and it’s not good enough for Ms Billingsley.

    “Our position is that the review of MFAT’s handling of this case should be expanded to include Ministers’ actions, and inactions, and that Minister McCully should stand down while this review is going on.

    “New Zealand needs those in power to take leadership on the issue of sexual and domestic violence. What happened in Ms Billingsley’s case shows that they didn’t. If Ministers had shown leadership, it’s hard to see that the diplomat would have been allowed to leave New Zealand.

    “Ms Billingsley has always said that she wanted him to stay to face trial in New Zealand. We still don’t even know if he’s coming back and that would be understandably distressing for her.

    “The New Zealand Government has let Ms Billingsley down and the lack of leadership shown over her case should cause everyone to be concerned,” Mrs Turei said.

    It’s not clear what Turei thinks the Government should have actually done. Taken over from the police or MFAT?

    If Greens overplay the politics of the handling of immunity they risk severely diminishing a far more important argument to more generally “take leadership on the issue of sexual and domestic violence.”

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  63. dirty harry (515 comments) says:

    Judith..are you married to Pete George?

    Is Milknmike your son ?

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  64. nasska (11,813 comments) says:

    Kimbo

    ….”Mfat should never have traded away her right for justice to be seen and done in New Zealand. “…..

    Can you tell us how they did that? It is simply not possible to detain a diplomat if the country involved will not offer a waver…..that is part of international agreements on diplomatic representation & to break it would make us a pariah with all our trading partners.

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  65. flipper (4,218 comments) says:

    I cannot state my position on this violence issue better than …. who said:

    ” holysheet (245 comments) says:

    July 10th, 2014 at 8:30 am

    I am increasingly getting pissed off with the accusation from the lefts’ namby-pamby idiots that I am the cause of all the ills that are inflicting the down trodden, homeless, bludgers and labour supporters in our society today.

    I do not bash my wife
    I do not rape anyone
    I do not bash and kill young children
    I do not commit burglary and steal from others
    I did not expect others to pay me for having children that I cannot afford to raise myself
    I did not sign the treaty so have no obligation to honour it.
    I did not agree to most of the social changes inflicted upon society by the labour party and their various factions

    I will not apologise for being a white male in my early 60’s and not having done any of the above, I will not be made to feel guilty because of who I am.

    We are constantly being told “it’s societies problem and we should all take responsibility to fix the problem” That is bullshit. Let the perpetrators fix their own problems without trying to pass the buck to us all.
    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 22 Thumb down 1

    I am heartily sick of the hand wringing as epitomised by the Herald editorial this AM.
    It has reached the point where I switch off.

    I do not care for any sort of violence,. But this campaign is politically stupid and have only been generated by the lesbian and male homosexual wimps in labour and the red melon greens. (An passant, anyone else recall that some of the worst violence was perpetrated by female members of the Bader-Meinhoff, and the like.)

    There are not enough of their ilk to swing the total GE vote come 9/20. The issue will be nothing more than a deaf ear generator, on an issue that should noted and dealt with in a responsible, non gender way.

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  66. Kimbo (1,083 comments) says:

    @ niggly

    However I don’t believe the executive branch of government (I take you mean Cabinet not MFAT officials?)…

    No. The “executive branch includes at the staff at Mfat, the police, justice department, etc, who administer the alaw and the executive directives that ultimately flow from the Cabinet.

    McCully is paid the big bucks to oversee that within the domain of Mfat. While he shouldn’t know everything that goes on, he is nevertheless ultimately responsible for what happens on his watch.

    Which is why we deserve to know to what extent his policies, directives and decisions, if any, caused this situation in the first place. I agree it is unlikely to be a “sin of commission”. But a “sin of omission/avoidable ignorance” should not be immediately dismissed out-of-hand.

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  67. nasska (11,813 comments) says:

    From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy#Diplomatic_immunity

    …..”The sanctity of diplomats has long been observed. This sanctity has come to be known as diplomatic immunity. While there have been a number of cases where diplomats have been killed, this is normally viewed as a great breach of honour. Genghis Khan and the Mongols were well known for strongly insisting on the rights of diplomats, and they would often wreak horrific vengeance against any state that violated these rights.

    Diplomatic rights were established in the mid-17th century in Europe and have spread throughout the world. These rights were formalized by the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which protects diplomats from being persecuted or prosecuted while on a diplomatic mission. If a diplomat does commit a serious crime while in a host country he may be declared as persona non grata (unwanted person). Such diplomats are then often tried for the crime in their homeland.”…….

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  68. Kimbo (1,083 comments) says:

    @ nasska

    Kimbo

    ….”Mfat should never have traded away her right for justice to be seen and done in New Zealand. “…..

    Can you tell us how they did that? It is simply not possible to detain a diplomat if the country involved will not offer a waver…..that is part of international agreements on diplomatic representation & to break it would make us a pariah with all our trading partners.

    I think you are arguing about angels on a pinhead.

    But rather than get involved in the complications over the waiving of diplomatic immunity, let me simplify the matter: –

    If Tania Billingsley justice was not traded away, why has Key offered his apology for the performance of Mfat in the matter, and why is their currently an inquiry into its performance, with the suggestion given that someone is in the wrong job?

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  69. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    So Judith, when Billingsley said “I just remember the first, the very first thing I watched on it, and just seeing him looking bored and annoyed at having to be talking about it and just saying there’s nothing that we can do pretty much. ‘Oh it sucks but it is what it is.’

    “And that’s what I was getting. I don’t feel from him any sincerity in his concern for me.” , she wasn’t politicising the issue?

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  70. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    The key issue with MFAT is whether they didn’t act in accordance with how Government claim they required them to act.

    It’s not a diplomacy problem, how that works is well established. It’s whether MFAT did what was required of them or not.

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  71. nasska (11,813 comments) says:

    Kimbo

    Since the whole issue has been politicised by Labour/Greens & the complainant then a political answer must be offered. In this case everyone & his dog seems to want an “apology”so an apology was given.

    The entire story has been choreographed by traitorous civil servants & their Labour/Green idols.

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  72. Nostalgia-NZ (5,281 comments) says:

    Thanks flipper. The twist in the tail could be an argument about complainants being coerced into silence, unable to speak out about concerns regarding due process and so on. As to the issue of shades of grey – the concern has to be if anyone was privy to an arrangement of the ‘defendant’ being diagnosed with depression in order to ensure he doesn’t return. That’s how it looks, a suddenly depressed ‘Diplomat’ escaping. Unfortunate all round really, should have been stopped in its tracks at the beginning – phone call in the night type of thing. Might still require a crushing blow by the PM to get things back in order and instil confidence in something that has been allowed to begin to smell fishy – there’ll be no shortage (and probably rightly) of people willing to jump on this bandwagon.

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  73. RightNow (7,012 comments) says:

    I expect a bit of a clear out at MFAT is in the offing.

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  74. flipper (4,218 comments) says:

    Kimbo…
    You are away with the media fairies ..on so many counts I cannot be bothered detailing.

    You might ask:

    1. Did Police investigating the complaint contact their DPS section?
    2. Was the Commissioner told?
    3. Was Tolley (no surprises policy) told by the Commissioner?
    4. Given that McCully was first briefed (routine preliminary info) by MFAT on May 10, what information was given to Allen at that stage?

    And so on….. all of which comes back to this:
    1. New Zealand (MFAT) asked Malaysia to waive diplomatic immunity
    2. Malaysia formally declined.
    3. Game, set and match.
    4. McCully / Key should have been told immediately.
    5. The result should have been published.
    5. #s 4 and 5 are the issue

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  75. Kimbo (1,083 comments) says:

    @ nasska

    Since the whole issue has been politicised by Labour/Greens & the complainant then a political answer must be offered. In this case everyone & his dog seems to want an “apology”so an apology was given.

    So is that saying John Key was not sincere when he gave the apology?

    I acknowledge that any politician worth their salt will always put political damage control ahead of everything else.

    But if that was really the case, why wouldn’t Key just blame/apologise for the “established and long-standing diplomatic protocols” (as you have tried to argue), rather than throwing Mfat (and potentially by extension, McCully and the entire National Government less than 3 months out from an election) under the bus?

    Mfat stuffed up. THAT opened up the door to politics. But don’t get the cart before the horse. Governments are responsible for the stuff-ups that happen on their watch.

    Which is actually a core part of Nationals’ election message – we won’t stuff up, or if we do, it wont be as bad as Labour and the Greens. OK, so they are going to be held accountable for that, by whoever, whenever

    Sorry, your plot theory doesn’t stack up.

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  76. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    1. New Zealand (MFAT) asked Malaysia to waive diplomatic immunity
    2. Malaysia formally declined.
    3. Game, set and match.
    4. McCully / Key should have been told immediately.
    5. The result should have been published.
    5. #s 4 and 5 are the issue

    1.5 Allegedly someone from MFAT informally indicated immunity and removal of the accused from the country would be ok, contrary to the official Government position.

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  77. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ slightlyrighty (2,492 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 10:16 am

    No she wasn’t politicising it. McCully was the person responsible – he was the minister in charge and therefore has to take ultimate responsibility. McCully was speaking because of the role he had, and she had the right, and has the right to criticise the people responsible NO MATTER which political party is involved. National are currently the government, it was under their governance that this occurred and therefore, it is them getting the blame.

    Are you trying to suggest that no one has the right to complain about the government, and any mistakes they make just because its election year? Or is it just when National happen to be the government, that no one is allowed to complain about anything that they do that isn’t up to standard?

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  78. nasska (11,813 comments) says:

    ….” Allegedly someone from MFAT informally indicated immunity and removal of the accused from the country would be ok, contrary to the official Government position.”…..

    Spot on. Just another instance where the bureaucrats think they know better than the Government of the day, or worse are serving the opposition. Problem is that when their actions cause a fallout they get under their desks & let the uninformed Minister they’ve set up take the blame.

    The best outcome would be to fire 50% of the no hopers in MFAT & start again. This might teach loyalty to the survivors.

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  79. RightNow (7,012 comments) says:

    Hanlon’s Razor: “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”

    Are the MFAT staff responsible for the cock-up really that stupid? I don’t think that adequately explains it.

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  80. stephieboy (3,406 comments) says:

    Argentine 0 Netherlands 0.

    Extra time.

    Penalty shoot out.

    Lottery time so to speak. Netherlands slight advantage winning penalty shoot out against Costa Rica.

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  81. Viking2 (11,571 comments) says:

    I see all the National apologists are out in force defending the indefensible.

    Diplomatic Immunity does not allow a person to randomly commit crime and then be shipped home at the first convenience let alone to Muslim Country where had a Christian perpetrated a crime against Islam as opposed to a female in our country that person would be in jail and subject to harsh law.

    That Male committed a home invasion with the intent to rape. How can any of you crawl on your yellow bellies and condone that?

    Had he been Maori these pages would have been full of all sorts of vilification etc. (take the Maori Kings offspring as an example of what I mean).
    Why not for this scum bag.

    That the pollies were so disorganized and so completely offhand about this tells us a lot about the disconnect between McCully and his dept. and about the disconnect between the words of the pollies and their actions.

    Now McCully may not have known and that’s fair but he sure as hell has not made his contempt for the perpetrator known nor has he and Govt. made a clear unequivical stand on this issue. Its not a beltway issue but one that surfaces everyday in our nation and one that gets a lot of airing. To stand back and issue a press release saying oh we are sorry doesn’t cut the mustard at all.

    Saying sorry doesn’t fix it. Its bland and easy to do that.
    You are remembered for your actions not you words.

    Its good the Police are supporting this young lady.

    Any external Govt. worth knowing would have let the perpetrator remain and insisted that he faced justice here.

    His Govt. stands indicted by their actions.

    As for preducing any trail. What crap. News report this stuff all the time and its all on Google but at the end of the day the perpetrator ain’t coming back and so their is not going to be a trial. I would consider that this young lady was really left with going public to condemn the actions of MFAT employees and the govt.
    And good on her as it must have been a tough to do. Note here the police supported her actions by not opposing the lifting of name suppression. That should tell you all something.

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  82. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ nasska (10,439 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 10:31 am

    When I was working for the Govt on the new sentencing bill, the minister would frequently visit to check our progress. I lost count of the amount of times we were told to divert attention away from the areas we were having issues with, as they didn’t want the minister to ‘worry’. Yeah right, they just didn’t want the minister to know what a mess it was in, at that stage.

    But, I guess the buck has to stop somewhere, and such is the drawback of having the top job.

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  83. Kimbo (1,083 comments) says:

    @ nasska

    Problem is that when (bureaucrats) actions cause a fallout they get under their desks & let the uninformed Minister they’ve set up take the blame.

    Yes, nasska.

    But you need to continue with that line of argument and ask the following question that naturally flows from your analysis: –

    As the “bureaucrats” are part of the same executive branch of government as McCully, how come this Minister was (to quote yo) “uninformed”?

    I disagree with Judith (and Tania Billingsley for that matter) that McCully is automatically, necessarily and/or directly to blame. However, it is not unreasonable, given that Ministers in such a situations will always blame the staff down the feeding chain for a stuff up, to put the blow torch on McCully to establish his competence. No matter how left-wing and politicised Mfat may be (and I don’t doubt they are), nevertheless, National campaigned for and won government, and McCully was not dragged kicking and screaming to take his Ministerial oath on the basis they would ensure the “bureaucrats” did a good job on their watch.

    With the privileges and pleasures of power come responsibility and accountability.

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  84. RightNow (7,012 comments) says:

    “Diplomatic Immunity does not allow a person to randomly commit crime and then be shipped home at the first convenience let alone to Muslim Country where had a Christian perpetrated a crime against Islam as opposed to a female in our country that person would be in jail and subject to harsh law.”

    Do tell, it seems to allow exactly that.

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  85. stephieboy (3,406 comments) says:

    Great Drama.

    The Argies win on penalty shoot out .

    Next Sunday Argentine vs Germany.

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  86. artemisia (255 comments) says:

    At the decimal changeover, my mum asked for a dozen stamps at the Post Office, and was told they only come in 10s now. True story.

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  87. nasska (11,813 comments) says:

    ….”With the privileges and pleasures of power come responsibility and accountability.”….

    True.

    But how accountable should that person be if they are being deliberately white anted? No one can make executive decisions on incomplete or wrong information from those they are nominally in charge of.

    I would suggest that if the Chairman of the Board of (say) Air NZ was fed crap then there would be a wholesale clean out of his advisers. That is what should happen within MFAT or any other Government Dept where disloyalty is rife.

    The Dept of Education springs to mind as another organisation overdue for mass sackings.

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  88. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Billingsley is a devout left-wing activist, is hand in glove with Logie, and is playing politics which will be to her detriment. She has now lost a lot of support, and will continue to do so. I would like to know where Goff, Shearer, and Little are in this set-up.

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  89. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ igm (1,341 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 10:55 am

    The removal of support from people who have no compassion for a victim of violent crime based on their own political bias is not a loss.

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  90. Tauhei Notts (1,749 comments) says:

    Keeping Stock’s comment at 8.51 might have questionable punctuation.
    He writes that Jan Logie is the victim’s go-to politician.
    Possibly he means that Jan Logie is the victims’ go-to politician.
    She loves going into bat, for bats.

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  91. Elaycee (4,410 comments) says:

    slightlyrightly (9.21am): This woman is facebook friends with Jan Logie, under the name Tarn Billingsley, and for a woman who is willing to go public with this most devastating occurance, and seems to be a confessed activist, her on-line profile is very sanitised.

    It may only be a spooky coincidence, but I heard a rumour just this morning that a person with the same name (film maker / sound recordist / Rainbow Youth ‘follower’ Tanya (Tarn) Billingsley) is not only ‘politically active’ and has been known to take up the odd ‘anti-Government’ cause, but is also linked to the Gweens….

    But as I said, maybe it’s just a spooky coincidence…..

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  92. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Viking2 says:

    “Diplomatic Immunity does not allow a person to randomly commit crime and then be shipped home at the first convenience…”

    Yes it does exactly that.

    Diplomatic immunity is a form of legal immunity that ensures that diplomats are given safe passage and are considered not susceptible to lawsuit or prosecution under the host country’s laws.

    Even with murder, somebody who can claim diplomatic immunity cannot be prosecuted unless diplomatic immunity is waived by his home country.
    Check up on the case of WPC Yvonne Fletcher who was shot outside the Libyan embassy.

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  93. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ artemisia (205 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 10:49 am

    Yes the change over was often quite amusing. I remember a very proud neighbour telling my mother how she had been through her recipe book and changed all ‘dozens’ to 10 (or 1/2 dozens to 5) and my mother almost wetting herself with laughter, whilst trying to explain to the neighbour that her recipes wouldn’t work now.

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  94. wf (466 comments) says:

    @ PG – wouldn’t Malaysia be just as aware of the protocols of diplomatic immunity as MFAT. Their decision not to waive might have been as automatic as MFAT’s request that they do so. So 1.5 as suggested may have been redundant.

    I was appalled that this young person was exposed on TV. A sacrificial lamb on the altar of green /left politics. To be honest, I thought she looked slightly uncomfortable, as if she had been groomed and coached into her role, and the faux sympathy of the interviewer grated.

    It was an unedifying programme. But in the end it will be forgotten and so will she.

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  95. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Elaycee (4,258 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 11:02 am

    So people with strong political opinions should be given different treatment if they are victims of crime? The suspected offender, by his own actions has reasonably demonstrated his guilt, and yet, our sympathy lies with him, rather than the New Zealander whose home he invaded and who he attempted to rape, simply because as a political activist who (presumably) doesn’t support the current government, she isn’t worthy of receiving support, and MOST certainly isn’t entitled to free speech nor to speak out when she feels an injustice has been committed?

    FFS, I can’t think of a better reason NOT to vote for National if that is a party philosophy. Next they will require the party preference to be recorded on all police complaints.

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  96. Kimbo (1,083 comments) says:

    @ nasska

    Was thinking of the Department of Education also when I mentioned “politicised” government departments.

    But even if traitorous white-anting is really happening (and I think you are exaggerating), that doesn’t let McCully of the hook competence-wise: he has been supposedly shaking things up there for a some 4 years trying to stop leaks. And ironically, that was almost certainly why John Allen was kept out of the loop.

    Leaks are a fact of life from government departments, especially when there is a right-wing government. And it is hypocritical for politicians to try and stop them, when they do it themselves for their own gain, including National politicians, e.g., Don Brash’s emails, Cunliffe’s letter on behalf of Donghua Liu. Instead, trying to stop leaks risks the law of unintended consequences. Just ask Richard Nixon how come his “plumbers” ended up breaking into the Watergate offices?!

    Ok, so it is McCully’s sand pit. Why hasn’t he got it working right some 4 years after undertaking his reforms? Indeed, it would seem on first glance his “reforms” may have been a part of the reason for this stuff up.

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  97. 103PapPap (131 comments) says:

    I recall that in 1967 beer was 3 shillings and threepence for a jug; there was an outcry from punters when the breweries put the price up to 3 shillings and fourpence the preceding March, because three and thrupence converted to 32 cents and three and fourpence converted to 34 cents.

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  98. Kimbo (1,083 comments) says:

    @ flipper

    And so on….. all of which comes back to this:
    1. New Zealand (MFAT) asked Malaysia to waive diplomatic immunity
    2. Malaysia formally declined.
    3. Game, set and match.
    4. McCully / Key should have been told immediately.
    5. The result should have been published.
    5. #s 4 and 5 are the issue

    Nope, I’m not the one away with the fairies.

    You forgot to write the first part up correctly: –

    1. New Zealand (MFAT) asked Malaysia to waive diplomatic immunity
    1a. and officially spelled out to Malaysia that it was ur official hope and desire that they would
    1b. but gave a back-channel message that implied 1a. was just a case of going through the motions, and New Zealand would not be disappointed if it didn’t happen.
    2. Malaysia formally declined, partly, perhaps even primarily as a result of 1b.

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  99. Elaycee (4,410 comments) says:

    ‘Judith’ / Ginny: So people with strong political opinions should be given different treatment if they are victims of crime?

    Sheesh…. It’s staggering how you can reach such a conclusion from what was written. Clearly comprehension is not your strong point.

    This has nothing to do with the allegations. The 21year old went on TV (unwisely IMO) and bleated about the Minister and the PM. But (if the rumours are true) it seems her comments may be politically motivated – indeed, perhaps she was ‘coached’ / ‘advised’ what to say by Jan Logie herself – who knows? But if the rumours are true, maybe she is not the politically innocent waif portrayed on screen.

    PS: We all know you don’t like National but you love the left. We’ve all heard the story ad nauseam. Fortunately, I know your single vote will be cancelled out by the 18yo kid from the nice Asian family next door. They all think the PM is great!

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  100. Nookin (3,467 comments) says:

    “So people with strong political opinions should be given different treatment if they are victims of crime?”

    No — and I haven’t seen anyone suggest that to be the case.

    ” The suspected offender, by his own actions has reasonably demonstrated his guilt, ..”

    Really? Or did the Malaysian Government put him on a plane as soon as possible? Is a trial unnecessary now?

    “…and yet, our sympathy lies with him, rather than the New Zealander whose home he invaded and who he attempted to rape …”

    I haven’t seen anyone speak in sympathy for him. At the most I have seen a comment suggesting that he is entitled to a fair trial and that we do not necessarily know all the facts.

    ‘ …simply because as a political activist who (presumably) doesn’t support the current government, she isn’t worthy of receiving support, and MOST certainly isn’t entitled to free speech nor to speak out when she feels an injustice has been committed?”

    Nothing is “simple”. There may be some who discount, possibly even reject altogether, her comments because she is now seen as politically tainted.

    At the other end of the continuum, there are those who will conclude that, as the victim, she is an expert in process and diplomacy and her opinions cannot be challenged.

    In between there will be many that are troubled by the course of events but who, at the same time, do not necessarily share her views on culpability. When members this group lift their heads above the parapet walls they are immediately targeted by more cynical commentators who condemn them for victim bashing and preserving the rape culture.

    There is also a distinction between the right to speak out and the wisdom of speaking out.

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  101. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    Tha campaign against McCully ramps up:

    Daily Blog: Murray McCully must go: sign the petition to demand his resignation
    Facebook: Murray McCully must go
    Petition: Murray McCully must go

    There’s no indication that Colin Craig is behind all this. Chloe King did the Daily Blog post and is named on the petition.

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  102. ShawnLH (5,757 comments) says:

    “FFS, I can’t think of a better reason NOT to vote for National if that is a party philosophy.”

    Don’t be dense. Of course it’s not party philosophy. But there is the smell of a rat here. The problem is that your blinded by your irrational and baseless hatred of Key.

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  103. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Elaycee (4,259 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 11:40 am

    But if the rumours are true, maybe she is not the politically innocent waif portrayed on screen.

    I didn’t see her as an innocent waif – I guess it depends from which political angle you are looking, but the rest of your post proves my point – you couldn’t care less about what has happened to the victim, (or at least you haven’t demonstrated that caring), nor anything other than the fact that as a political activist, she is somehow not ‘innocent’ and therefore by inference you are suggesting she ‘deserved’ what happened to her, and she has NO right to complain?

    Any decent person in the same circumstances would be complaining – there was serious wrongdoing through mismanagement, and whilst I don’t think heads should roll, the victim speaking out about that incompetence and airing her feelings is perfectly acceptable – after all, McCully got to voice his opinions, so what is wrong with her doing it.

    You are a fine person to throw the political bias allegation at me, when your own is blatantly obvious – lets face it, you are trying to mitigate the circumstances by insinuating that the victim is to blame – is not a nice person because of her political interests, and by inference, therefore shouldn’t get justice or be entitled to express her opinion.

    You quite literally make me sick.

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  104. stephieboy (3,406 comments) says:

    I see yesterday Ugly Truth was having a real meltdown over his “molten Steel ” WTC 9/11 canard.

    It appears that in a hissy fit of pique he signed off with unsurprisingly another outrageous claim about the US Government and its secret UFO agenda .

    The link provided seeks to confirm this conspiracy by purporting to show actual sitings.A couple suggest secret skullduggery going on at various US military bases and installations, notably area 51. This is where many of the alleged sightings have taken place.

    Yes Area 51 was a top secret testing e.g various military aircraft like spy planes like the Lockheed X 1, U2, SR 71 Blackbird etc.led by Lockheed Flight designer Kelly Johnson.

    It was a certain Robery Lazar who claimed to whistle blow the bases stating also various alien aircraft were under development . His claims were rejected and himself known to be a fraud and liar ,
    More here about Area 51 and much of it is now declassified and most working there now released from there vows of secrecy. No alien aircraft or bodies stored there at all.

    http://www.skepticblog.org/2014/01/08/area-51-myth-and-reality/

    Another sighting from U T’s highly dubious ink concerns the Phoenix sightings of an alleged V formation of UFO’s over the city and Arizona March 13 1997. This in fact was shown to be ia formation of aircraft the noise of their jet engines actually discernible and heard by many witnesses .

    http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/08-05-21/

    As we can see all the claims can be put down to more prosaic explanations as the Phoenix lights perfectly show. But this didn’t stop NBC airing the item in the battle of ratings games. To be fair they did give time to those who easily and readily debunked the claims . However this post and the links provided also wont’t necessarily stop those like UT persisting with their inane and crazy beliefs .

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  105. kowtow (8,776 comments) says:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2686711/Dont-make-mistake-As-assisted-suicide-bill-goes-Lords-Dutch-regulator-backed-euthanasia-warns-Britain-leads-mass-killing.html

    But on a lighter note there might be a few cloggies thinking of it right now.

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  106. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ ShawnLH (2,856 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 12:19 pm

    So you accept wrongdoing, but you’d like to blame the victims political preference for talking about it?

    So, other women and men that have spoken out when their situation has been mismanaged by government departments (e.g. ACC over privacy details) – their complaints should be dealt with according to their level of political opinion?

    In fact, should any complaint, police complaints as well, all be dealt with depending on the level of a the victims political activism, and which party they support.

    In short, please explain how a person’s political preference has anything to do with the fact that a potential rapist will get away with a serious crime, due to the mismanagement of senior government officials and the victim rightfully feels annoyed by that?

    The only rat I can smell is the fact that you and others are scrambling around trying to shift the blame from the people responsible. – In short, you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of, and not seeing the fault here, because of your own political bias – so hows about you stop being a bloody hypocrite yourself.

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  107. Viking2 (11,571 comments) says:

    A bloody good reason to go electronic.

    The Electoral Commission is hiring more than 18,000 people to help out during the election in September.

    It is advertising for 3000 headquarters staff to help with details such as vote counting, as well as for 15,500 election-day staff – all paid roles.

    Almost 200 managers and trainers have also already been hired.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10252650/Election-needs-18-000-vote-counters

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  108. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    Drugs trial

    JUDGE: How many grams are there in an ounce?
    PROSECUTOR [scratches chin]
    DEF COUNSEL [searches papers]
    DEFENDANT: 28.3

    (@garyslapper )

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  109. Yvette (2,850 comments) says:

    Malaysia asked to drop sex assault charge against envoy, NZ documents show
    UPDATED: JULY 01, 2014 09:38 PM
    KUALA LUMPUR, July 1 — Amid a potential diplomatic firestorm, the New Zealand government released today documents it says shows Malaysia asked it to drop a sexual assault case against its diplomat Muhammad Rizalman Ismail.

    The documents were released scant hours after Malaysia’s Foreign Minister Datuk Seri Anifah Aman told a news conference in Putrajaya that New Zealand officials had offered to let Muhammad Rizalman return home and face an inquiry here instead of standing trial there.
    The minister had said earlier news reports claiming Muhammad Rizalman had claimed diplomatic immunity to escape the sexual assault and burglary charges were misreporting.

    In its report, the New Zealand Herald cited the correspondence between New Zealand’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade (MFAT) and the Malaysian High Commission, with the latter saying it would not waive Muhammad Rizalman’s diplomatic immunity.
    The Malaysian High Commission also said it will recall the Wellington-based military staff assistant “as soon as possible”.

    The Malaysian High Commission also asked MFAT and the New Zealand police to “kindly consider sealing all documentations pertaining to the above mentioned matter and [withdraw] all charges against Mr Muhammad Rizalman Bin Ismail”, the New Zealand Herald reported.
    The High Commission also said it would ensure that Muhammad Rizalman would not step foot in New Zealand anymore.

    According to New Zealand Herald, the Malaysian High Commission was replying to the MFAT, which had written that it wanted Malaysia to waive the personal immunity that was given to diplomats under the Vienna Convention.
    “The New Zealand police believes it is in the public interest to prosecute these offenses due to the serious nature of the offending,” MFAT was quoted as writing to the High Commission.

    Muhammad Rizalman, 38, was arrested by Kiwi police on May 9 on allegations of attempted burglary and sexual assault on a 21-year-old woman.
    He was charged in a New Zealand court a day later for burglary and assault with intent to commit rape, with both charges carrying the maximum penalty of a 10-year jail term.

    In its letter to the Malaysian High Commission
    https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1211343/malaysia-tpn-nz-request.pdf — published along with Malaysia’s reply on the New Zealand Herald’s website — MFAT cited Article 41 of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations as the basis for seeking a waiver of immunity enjoyed by Muhammad Rizalman.
    New Zealand’s foreign ministry stressed that it becomes the responsibility of foreign diplomats to “respect the laws and regulations of the receiving State”.
    “It is on this basis and on the advice of police that the ministry seeks a waiver of immunity to allow a prosecution to proceed,” the letter, dated May 10, said.
    The Malaysian High Commission replied almost two weeks later
    https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1211342/malaysian-tpn-response.pdf on May 21, to inform their counterparts that Muhammad Rizalman and his family would be sent home the next day without giving reasons for the decision.

    “In choosing this course of action, the High Commission of Malaysia would like to assure the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade of New Zealand that the government of Malaysia will ensure that Mr Muhammad RIzalman Ismail does not return to New Zealand in the future,” said the diplomatic letter.
    A New Zealand court had initially issued a suppression order when Muhammad Rizalman was charged for the two offences on May 10, but it was lifted earlier today amid growing outrage in the South Pacific island nation.

    New Zealand Prime Minister John Key today repeated his position that Muhammad Rizalman should be tried for his alleged crimes before a Kiwi court, giving his assurance he would get a fair trial and that his life would not be in danger.
    “We don’t have the death penalty in New Zealand and he’ll absolutely get a free and fair trial in New Zealand.
    “One thing that we can pride ourselves is having a judicial system that’s completely fair,” Key was quoted saying by New Zealand news agency Dominion Post on the website stuff.co.nz. 
    http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/malaysia-asked-to-drop-sex-assault-charge-against-envoy-nz-documents-show

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  110. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Pete George (22,508 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 12:09 pm

    That is ridiculous – this is not a resignation ‘offence’ – there was no deliberate intention involved (unlike trying to interfere in a police investigation into domestic violence) and there was no deliberate dishonesty or attempt to evade the truth being known. Whilst I think McCully needs to (and basically has) acknowledge his mismanagement, and meet with the victim to apologise for the stress it has caused, I personally would not like to see Ministers sacked/resign for something like this. We’d be left with nothing but inexperienced newbies in the house.

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  111. kowtow (8,776 comments) says:

    “Drugs trial

    JUDGE: How many grams are there in an ounce?
    PROSECUTOR [scratches chin]
    DEF COUNSEL [searches papers]
    DEFENDANT: 28.3

    (@garyslapper )”

    JUDGE; Guilty as charged!

    DEFENDANT; Doh!

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  112. Manolo (14,070 comments) says:

    A call to arms for Ugly Truth: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/09/isis-destroys-shrines-and-mosques-sets-sights-on-mecca/

    ISIS is leaving a path of destroyed churches, shrines and mosques in its wake as it storms across Syria and Iraq, and has even set its sights on Mecca — Islam’s holiest site.

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  113. Kimbo (1,083 comments) says:

    In short, please explain how a person’s political preference has anything to do with the fact that a potential rapist will get away with a serious crime, due to the mismanagement of senior government officials and the victim rightfully feels annoyed by that?

    @ Judith

    No one with a proper understanding of the facts disputes Mfat failed Tania Billingsley.

    Nevertheless, just as McCully’s competence in the matter is quite rightly being questioned – and as the matter has now gone public and significantly ramped up via Tania Billingsley appearance-

    ….it is only right that the true extent and motivation for Tania Billingsley’s (to paraphrase you) “annoyance”should and must also be subject to scrutiny. She has called for “political” decisions and put in her two cents worth (McCully and Key should resign), and good on her for it – that is her prerogative, irrespective of her politics.

    But now as a result her politics are rightly being questioned.

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  114. kowtow (8,776 comments) says:

    That’s a but like the crim picked out at the ID parade,protesting, “He couldn’t possibly recognise me, it was dark at the time”.

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  115. dirty harry (515 comments) says:

    Fine. McCully stands down. Story stops right there. No more howling and screeching from the loony left. Oxygen has been cut.

    Nats win election…McCully gets his old job back October 1st.

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  116. dirty harry (515 comments) says:

    “SIS is leaving a path of destroyed churches, shrines and mosques in its wake as it storms across Syria and Iraq, and has even set its sights on Mecca — Islam’s holiest site.”

    Great ! Coke…popcorn..

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  117. nasska (11,813 comments) says:

    Judith

    …”We’d be left with nothing but inexperienced newbies in the house.”…..

    Agreed. We’d also lower the calibre of potential ministers. Decent people who seek to have a life after politics will not offer themselves as political candidates if they are going to be pilloried for events or actions they have only nominal control over.

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  118. Nookin (3,467 comments) says:

    Murray McCully became aware of the incident on or about 10 May 2014. On that date, an official, written request was made to waive diplomatic immunity. His next involvement appears to have been when the matter became public at the end of June.
    Some random questions and random answers

    1. Assuming that McCully knew that the letter had been sent (and this is a reasonable assumption), should McCully have foreseen the possibility that staff at the coalface would be negotiating a position directly contrary to the expressed government position? Answer: Probably not.

    2. If McCully had decided to take a hands-on approach, would he have been blamed for the return of the diplomat to Malaysia? Answer: Almost inevitably.

    3. As an extension of the previous question, would McCully have been condemned for flying in the face of the Cabinet manual and taking an active involvement in the day-to-day management of the Ministry for which he was responsible? Answer: Almost inevitably.

    4. Is it surprising that the CEO of MFAT had no knowledge of the incident until it became public? Answer: No, not surprising. Astonishing is probably the better word.

    5. Is it surprising that McCully did not at least make some form of enquiry about progress? Answer: Yes, assuming that the statement is in fact correct. On the other hand, how forthcoming would his source have been with information given that the source may well have been aware (even involved in) the under the table and underhand negotiations that were being pursued and that the fox had fled the coop.

    6. Are there serious communication problems in MFAT? Answer: Based on what we know about this case, indubitably.

    7. Is this McCully’s fault? Answer: possibly. It is also possible that a diplomat made it an extremely serious and one-off mistake, details of which were deliberately withheld from the CEO and the Minister.

    8. Should McCully have apologised personally to Ms Billingsley? Answer: Yes, assuming that the police informed him of her name and address contrary to the suppression order made by the court and the she had first consented to such disclosure.

    9. Would McCully have been demonised had he approached her directly and, in consequence, her identity became known contrary to the suppression order? Answer: Inevitably.

    10. Does she have a right to speak out? Answer: Absolutely.

    11. Is her opinion on culpability immune from all criticism simply because she is the victim? Absolutely not – so long as any criticism is measured and well-considered.

    12 Is she an expert on MFAT protocols and therefore an authoritative source? Answer: Were Colin Meads and Richard Long experts on finance companies?

    13. Is she correct in saying that McCully should resign? Answer: Possibly but not until we know more facts.

    14. Is she correct when she says that Key looked bored and disinterested? Answer: This is an extremely subjective analysis and therefore clearly influenced by emotive issues. To me, he looked seriously pissed off.

    15. Will the Malaysian government become aware of any outpouring of public sympathy for Ms Billingsley, condemnation of the diplomat (a la Judith above) condemnation of the rape culture and political brouhaha arising out of the whole matter and question whether he will get a fair trial. Answer: I hope not but it won’t be helping.

    16. Have the Greens dived into the mud with the pigs? Answer: Definitely — and they are wallowing in it. Perhaps they should take note of the fact that a government might make a hasty ill-considered or, perhaps unduly reactive decision on, for example, claiming diplomatic immunity and if Malaysia did that justice would not be served. Who knows what Malaysia may now be thinking. Sometimes governments make inappropriate, instinctive decisions. I have even heard of a political party that has said it would oppose extradition of an alleged criminal just after talks with said alleged criminal over his political aspirations.

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  119. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    I’m still struggling to make the connection between a Malaysian diplomat allegedly trying to sexually assault a woman in Wellington is a indicative of New Zealand’s “rape culture”. Surely it’s indicative of Malaysia’s “rape culture”? Or did spending some time immersed in Wellington’s “rape culture” turn this Malaysian Diplomat into an alleged rapist?

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  120. Viking2 (11,571 comments) says:

    ightNow (6,611 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 10:45 am

    “Diplomatic Immunity does not allow a person to randomly commit crime and then be shipped home at the first convenience let alone to Muslim Country where had a Christian perpetrated a crime against Islam as opposed to a female in our country that person would be in jail and subject to harsh law.”

    Do tell, it seems to allow exactly that.

    Well there was an opinion in one of the papers today that doesn’t support your carte blanche view.

    If it is the case then it is another 1700 type doctrine that needs updating urgently. Bend your mind to making that happen instead of excusing a rat bag nasty piece of shit intent on rape.

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  121. Grendel (1,005 comments) says:

    actually judith, she might be a horrible person, we dont know and its not relevant to the case.

    why do you not understand that no one is denying that if she was attacked then she deserves justice (i only say if becuase of the whole innocent until proven etc, it seems pretty obvious she was).

    what sensible people are not thrilled with is:

    1. how she has fled to the media to get her story out there, as this might compromise the trial
    2. the fact that she is a political activist and teaming up with her preferred party to get free advertising attacking the govt over this, as if they are somehow responsible.
    3. how the greens have rushed in there to use her to push their agenda. to me it shows they dont really care about her, but about points scoring at the expense of a victim. the speed at which logie ran in there to ‘manage’ this is horrifying.

    if the malaysian guy is guilty (see above for disclaimer) he deserves the full brunt of justice, but nothing about that makes her politicising this in favour of her favorite political party less distasteful.

    would she be doing this if the greens were in power? i doubt it. she would be focused to the person who attacked her and not calling for the green ministers resignation. thats what makes this shitty.

    your one-eyed view of the world cannot percieve how rational people can side with someone on the key issue but disagree with how they handle it and the situation they are trying to manipulate. its easy, you just have to tone down the crazy hate, but without your hatred of John Key, there is nothing much of interest about you is there?

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  122. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    One politician apologises: Harawira U-turn in diplomat sex case

    Mana Party leader Hone Harawira has apologised for calling the row over a sexual assault charge against a diplomat “bugger all.”

    The Te Tai Tokerau MP made the remarks on political panel show Backbenches last week.

    Asked on the show about the political storm around alleged attacker Muhammad Rizalman bin Ismail, Harawira said: “I think all of the media, their heads should roll for making a big fuss about bugger all.”

    The country was facing more pressing matters such as “kids starving”, he said.

    Harawira added: “Let’s just keep it there, it’s allegedly, and so until such time that this sorts its self out, let’s get on with running the country in the best interests of all off the citizens.”

    Now Harawira says he made a “big mistake” and praised Tania Billingsley, the 22-year-old victim of the alleged attack, for speaking out about mishandling of the case.

    In a Facebook post this morning, Harawira said: “I want to sincerely apologise if my comments on Backbenches may seem to have minimised the gravity of the situation regarding the young woman who asked police to investigate the complaint of sexual assault against the Malaysian diplomat.

    “I have reviewed the tape and I accept that my comments were not helpful at all.

    “Sexual assault IS a big deal, and I applaud Tania Rose Billingsley for her brave and courageous appearance on television last night.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10252967/Harawira-sorry-he-said-sex-case-was-bugger-all

    Good of Harawira to recognise his mistake and apologise for it.

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  123. lilman (967 comments) says:

    Pity all these concerned MPs were not around when the Labour Mp who tried to sexually assault a young male in Annette Kings house,I guess it just bad timing,nothing pollitical.

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  124. stephieboy (3,406 comments) says:

    Ten of the most craziest things Sarah Palin has said on Fox News,

    http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/01/26/the-10-worst-things-sarah-palin-said-on-fox-new/192403

    Unsurprisingly she next calls for Obama’a impeachment ,

    http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/01/26/the-10-worst-things-sarah-palin-said-on-fox-new/192403

    For exactly what.?

    Notably Senator John McCain has not much to say about her latest inanity .!

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  125. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Kimbo (638 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 12:44 pm

    If she had been the first ever victim of sexual assault or intended sexual assault, to go public when they felt their interests were not being addressed correctly – I’d agree with you. But victims of crime frequently come forward and criticize those they deem responsible for mismanagement of their case etc.

    There have been some pretty strong statements made about this woman, and not just her politics. IMO the only reason she is being treated so harshly, is because her politics varies from the majority of the posters here. That is just not acceptable.

    Other victims of crime have spoken out, and not been subjected to this sort of interrogation over their politics – so I don’t accept your explanation that because she has spoken out, she should be – it is election year, and clearly National supporters don’t have faith in their party to win the election by merit alone, they feel they have to destroy the opposition and anyone that dares to support it, in order for their party to win – that is really sad, such a lack of faith.

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  126. RightNow (7,012 comments) says:

    “Well there was an opinion in one of the papers today that doesn’t support your carte blanche view.”

    Yep, you got me there. Hard to argue against a vague reference to an opinion.

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  127. Don the Kiwi (1,794 comments) says:

    Good heavens – surely not.

    Griff will be apoplectic at this news.

    “The sky fell on Hawaii last month, all because carbon dioxide levels peeped above the much-hyped 400 ppm hurdle. Chicken Littles all over the world squawked into their friendly media megaphones about numerous imminent global warming disasters. One warned: “the fate of the world hangs in the balance.” (Similar alarms were rung when the 350 ppm level was passed).

    But nobody else noticed anything scary.

    Four pieces of well-established evidence say that 400 ppm of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is not a concern.

    Firstly, there has been no increase in global temperatures since 1998 despite 16 years of rising carbon dioxide levels and heavy usage of carbon fuels. Clearly, CO2 is not the main driver of global temperatures.

    Secondly, the ice core records show clearly, with no exceptions, that all recent ice ages have commenced when the atmosphere contained relatively high levels of carbon dioxide. The temperature fell first, and then carbon dioxide levels fell. This proves that high carbon dioxide levels do not guarantee a warm globe, but could suggest that they may be a harbinger of a coming ice age. Ice will cause far more damage to the biosphere than even the worst warming forecast.

    Thirdly, current levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide are not extreme or unusual. Carbon dioxide reached 2,000 ppm in the luxuriant era of the dinosaurs, and ten times current levels (4,000 ppm) when the great Devonian coral reefs were flourishing. There is no tipping point into runaway global warming, or we would have tipped eons ago.

    Finally, current carbon dioxide levels are just above starvation levels for plants. All vegetation would grow stronger, faster, and be more drought resistant and heat resistant if carbon dioxide levels trebled to 1,200 ppm. Such levels are no threat to humans – US submarines operate at up to 8,000 ppm for cruises of 90 days. Topping 400 ppm should be a cause for celebration – it shows that Earth is emerging from the cold hungry years of the ice ages.

    Climate Cassandras have blown false trumpets once again.”

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  128. Kimbo (1,083 comments) says:

    @ labrator

    I’m still struggling to make the connection between a Malaysian diplomat allegedly trying to sexually assault a woman in Wellington is a indicative of New Zealand’s “rape culture”. Surely it’s indicative of Malaysia’s “rape culture”? Or did spending some time immersed in Wellington’s “rape culture” turn this Malaysian Diplomat into an alleged rapist?

    Nope.

    As I understand it, “rape culture” is a general attitude that discourages and hinders transparency, justice and accountability for victims (aka “the marginalised”) by minimising, tolerating, or in some way aiding and abetting rape or those accused of it. It is especially demonstrated in entrenched and privileged positions of power (aka “the hegemony”)

    …such as a government official giving a back channel message in contradiction to our official diplomatic position that we would prefer and desire the Malaysian government to waive diplomatic immunity.

    I don’t usually have much time for left-wing dialectic analysis, and even less for its supposed solutions. However, in this case I think that the cap may very well fit…

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  129. Kimbo (1,083 comments) says:

    @ Judith

    I’d agree with you. But victims of crime frequently come forward and criticize those they deem responsible for mismanagement of their case etc.

    There have been some pretty strong statements made about this woman, and not just her politics. IMO the only reason she is being treated so harshly, is because her politics varies from the majority of the posters here. That is just not acceptable.

    I’ll still almost certainly be voting National. But nonetheless there is an element of truth in what you say.

    But folks are gonna do what folks are gonna do. And irrespective of her being a victim, she has taken a “political action” – which I reiterate is her prerogative. Which means she can and should also be subject to responsible scrutiny

    As Nookin astutely posted earlier (July 10th, 2014 at 11:49 am)

    “Nothing is “simple”. There may be some who discount, possibly even reject altogether, her comments because she is now seen as politically tainted.

    At the other end of the continuum, there are those who will conclude that, as the victim, she is an expert in process and diplomacy and her opinions cannot be challenged.

    In between there will be many that are troubled by the course of events but who, at the same time, do not necessarily share her views on culpability. When members this group lift their heads above the parapet walls they are immediately targeted by more cynical commentators who condemn them for victim bashing and preserving the rape culture.

    There is also a distinction between the right to speak out and the wisdom of speaking out.”

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  130. kowtow (8,776 comments) says:

    Destruction of Shia sites?

    When sunnis do it to shias the world’s MSM :ho hum,move along please.

    When the Americans or Israelis do it (in the heat of action) it’s Oh my gosh how evil ,and several hundred Pakis kill each other in anger.

    So it’s not that they are destroyed ,it’s who is destroying.

    Islam,the religion of perpetual outrage,along with their enablers, the west’s “liberal” media.

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  131. Paulus (2,668 comments) says:

    Has the Deputy Head of the Protocol Division of MFAT who made the unfortunate decision resigned yet ?
    Presumably she cannot be sacked, so probably she will be promoted to another Ministry.

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  132. Kimbo (1,083 comments) says:

    @ Paulus

    Presumably she cannot be sacked, so probably she will be promoted to another Ministry.

    Seconded to assist Chris Carter in Afghanistan, and help set up a New Zealand embassy in Kabul?

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  133. MH (817 comments) says:

    It is not the Navy’s job nor intention to tow the yacht especially in high seas but I’m sure over the various communications the state of the hull would have been discused and the Navy’s on board chippie shipwright would have tried to assist without compromising salvage or insurance worries and concerns over a surging towing hawser wrapped around the propeller. The Lt Diver would presumably have had a good look as well and made an assesment. They cut the original line for fear of the liferaft they were in being crushed under the rolling OPV.

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  134. Manolo (14,070 comments) says:

    Is P.G. providing expert advice to this victim of NZ’s “rape culture”? If not, why not?

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  135. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    … aiding and abetting rape or those accused of it … …such as a government official giving a back channel message

    So you’re accusing the unnamed Government official of aiding and abetting the alleged intended rapist as part of New Zealand’s larger “rape culture”?

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  136. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Don the Kiwi says:

    “…..current levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide are not extreme or unusual. ”

    Or the most important factor when it comes to temperature….
    While the late Ordovian Period was the start of an ice age, CO2 levels were 11 times (4400 PPM) higher than today.
    (They dropped from 7000 to 4400 PPM before the late Ordovian.

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  137. Kimbo (1,083 comments) says:

    @ labrator

    So you’re accusing the unnamed Government official of aiding and abetting the alleged intended rapist as part of New Zealand’s larger “rape culture”?

    By inattention to the true values that should have directed his or her actions – possibly yes.

    “Rape culture” is not just the act. It is also the “sins of omission” that allow it to occur…and/or allow others to get away with it.

    It is not necessarily a fully conscious decision. In fact often it is sub-conscious. To use the left-wing jargon, there has been insufficient “consciousness-raising” to realise there were much more important values in the play than NZ’s smooth diplomatic and trading relationship with Malaysia that should never have been up for negotiation.

    Let me turn it around. What other mental process could explain the message that this “unnamed Government official” gave to the Malaysians? Calling it “stupid” is a correct description, but that doesn’t explain how the stupidity came about.

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  138. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Kimbo (641 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 1:17 pm

    There certainly is a difference between right and wisdom, and given what she is receiving, clearly she needed more wisdom – the fact she is only young, may have contributed to that.

    And of course you will still vote National, as you should do, you have great faith in their ability and that is important. Sadly, there are many people, like myself who don’t have faith in any of the parties, which leaves us with a dilemma.

    What worries me, with this latest carry on is how it will effect the electorate. As you have shown, those with great faith in National would not let it deter that faith, however, as we all know, there is quite a large group of people currently offering their support to National, who can change that support on a whim.

    Whilst I understand the desire to point out this young victims political bias, and the possibility that she is being coerced by the less than ‘desirable’, I think those people dissing the victim should step back and consider just how their speech looks to others.

    Those that are ‘swinging voters’ are fickle, like me – impressions matter. Should this latest criticism be picked up and promoted by the media (all they’d have to do is read this thread), then National supporters could come across as ‘bullies’, picking on the victim of crime, trying to discredit her, to save ‘their man’. It’s the sort of stuff that swings votes, and that could impact badly – whilst wisdom would have dictated the young woman didn’t speak out, wisdom should also dictate that National supporters don’t gamble with this one – because it risks being something that could turn quite ugly against them.

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  139. Griff (8,199 comments) says:

    >Firstly, there has been no increase in global temperatures since 1998 despite 16 years of rising carbon dioxide levels and heavy usage of carbon fuels. Clearly, CO2 is not the main driver of global temperatures.

    http://skepticalscience.com/trend.php
    The sun heats the planet don the co2 retains more heat acting like a blanket your are obvious ignorant of the facts
    using 1998 as the start date is cherrypicking the biggest El Nino experienced in recorded history and the .3 degree jump in temperature this caused .The warmest years are 2010 and 2005 we now are having warmer temperatures without an El Nino
    http://skepticalscience.com/graphics.php?g=67
    http://skepticalscience.com/graphics.php?g=52

    Secondly, the ice core records show clearly, with no exceptions, that all recent ice ages have commenced when the atmosphere contained relatively high levels of carbon dioxide. The temperature fell first, and then carbon dioxide levels fell.

    logic fail. the ice cores don’t have the effect of man increasing co2 its a new phenomenon so you can not expect ancient history to show the present effects due to man. previous changes are mostly due to solar cycles or volcanism.

    Thirdly, current levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide are not extreme or unusual. Carbon dioxide reached 2,000 ppm in the luxuriant era of the dinosaurs,

    The sun at the time is known to be weaker and global temperatures were far higher due to the amount of co2
    You are proving the effect on the global climate with this statement if we return to that global temperature the tropics will be a uninhabitable desert and sea levels will be 50m plus higher good bye to most of the worlds great city’s..

    Finally, current carbon dioxide levels are just above starvation levels for plants. All vegetation would grow stronger, faster, and be more drought resistant and heat resistant if carbon dioxide levels trebled to 1,200 ppm.

    http://www.liebertpub.com/MContent/Files/Kleinman_ch19_p379-398.pdf
    This is a very simplistic idea
    Weeds respond far faster to growth in co2 than most food crops increasing competition and decreasing yields. Most food crops don’t respond well to increasing co2 unless you also increase other inputs like water and sunlight and fertilizer all of which will be restricted by increasing climate change.
    Increasing hot extremes will have a greater effect on reducing yields than co2 will; have in increasing them .

    It would help my amusement level if you give a link to the site where you sourced you misinformation from. It will be an unknown wing nut at a blog for such pathetic wingnuttery .

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  140. Kimbo (1,083 comments) says:

    Whilst I understand the desire to point our this young victims political bias, and the possibility that she is being coerced by the less than ‘desirable’, I think those people should step back and consider just how their speech looks to others…wisdom should also dictate that National supporters don’t gamble with this one – because it risks being something that could turn quite ugly against them.

    Indeed – which is why Key, McCully and anyone directly connected to the National Parliamentary team or Party have got rocks in their head if they ever considered it.

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  141. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Kimbo (643 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 2:04 pm

    Exactly. May the best team win – but win because they are the best, and not because they’ve managed to be on top of the gossip pile come election day.

    I’m hoping the next few weeks will be about policy – policy against policy – but somehow I don’t think that is going to happen.

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  142. muggins (3,811 comments) says:

    Re that Malaysian diplomat.
    It may have already been mentioned but what I would like to know is why diplomatic immunity wasn’t waived in the first place?
    I realise the Malaysian Government were given a way out, but why did they accept it if they were prepared to waive immunity in the first place?

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  143. Kimbo (1,083 comments) says:

    I’m hoping the next few weeks will be about policy – policy against policy – but somehow I don’t think that is going to happen.

    The other requirement is testing of competence. Which is why I’m interested to see how this McCully matter pans out. Seems the Greens may have stuffed it up already by giving the Malaysians an excuse not to send their man back. Mind you, lawyers, law professors and “law experts” are always fussing about something – usually coinciding with the interests of the purchaser of their whore-for-hire services.

    But I do think Key was just a bit too quick to accept McCully was not responsible. Time will tell if he will regret that decision, both objectively and politically. Mind you, he doesn’t seem to get the important decisions wrong. But at some point, just as happened with Helen Clark after Brash’s Orewa speech, the “tipping point” will come for the electorate’s collective confidence in Key’s abilities.

    Like Harold McMillan replied when asked what was the moving force in politics, “Events, my dear fellow, events…”

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  144. ciaron (1,441 comments) says:

    Click and collect from the Warehouse…
    All the pain and aggravation of going to the dentist, without actually getting your teeth fixed.

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  145. muggins (3,811 comments) says:

    Re my previous post. It now appears that the Malaysian Government weren’t prepared to waive diplomatic immunity, but that after the whatsit hit the fan they said were.

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  146. muggins (3,811 comments) says:

    Malaysia asked to drop sex assault charge against envoy, NZ documents show
    UPDATED: JULY 01, 2014 09:38 PM
    KUALA LUMPUR, July 1 — Amid a potential diplomatic firestorm, the New Zealand government released today documents it says shows Malaysia asked it to drop a sexual assault case against its diplomat Muhammad Rizalman Ismail.

    The documents were released scant hours after Malaysia’s Foreign Minister Datuk Seri Anifah Aman told a news conference in Putrajaya that New Zealand officials had offered to let Muhammad Rizalman return home and face an inquiry here instead of standing trial there.
    The minister had said earlier news reports claiming Muhammad Rizalman had claimed diplomatic immunity to escape the sexual assault and burglary charges were misreporting.

    This report is what I was referring to. Malaysia asked the NZ government to drop a sexual assault charge against one of it’s diplomats. Isn’t that much the same as asking for diplomatic immunity, without actually asking for it?

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  147. goldnkiwi (1,545 comments) says:

    Ffs all this only happened 8 weeks ago. If he was still in the country would a trial date be set by now?

    He is effectively in custody in his home country, how quickly would the alleged victim like to jump the queue?

    Have the police even had time to make proper enquiries.

    I absolutely agree that this is being used as political capital and that I would consider a trial prejudiced.

    Personally I do not see why he should languish at the NZ tax payers expense if found guilty. In some ways his guilt has been already decided. That is an abuse of due process imo.

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  148. Elaycee (4,410 comments) says:

    ‘Judith’ / Ginny (12.19pm): ….lets face it, you are trying to mitigate the circumstances by insinuating that the victim is to blame…..

    Jeez you really write some drivel, ‘Judith’…. but this effort lowers the bar even further. There was no such insinuation at all.

    Only a moron could think otherwise… 8O

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  149. thedavincimode (6,877 comments) says:

    Somebody has to, so it may as well be me:

    Billingsleygate.

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  150. thedavincimode (6,877 comments) says:

    I’ve only heard the odd selected snippet and was only half listening (half listening was likely an immune system response) but I gather that Ms Billingsley stepped enthusiastically into the limelight in order to raise rape awareness or some such. That explains why the apparent focus of her comments was on Key (“bored” – and rightly so if he was) and McCully (“incompetent”, but then we knew that already) not travelling hotfoot to prostrate themselves on her doorstep in abject apology.

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  151. Maggy Wassilieff (450 comments) says:

    @ Griff.(2.01pm)… looks like I’m gonna attack you again….. but since you’ve expressed some knowledge about CO2 compensation limits in crop and weed plants I thought you might like to come up to speed with some CO2 experiments on a C3 crop – (rice) and its C4 weed (barnyard grass).
    Here’s Matt Ridley’s take on it….. (you’ve got to read to the end).

    http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/two-rival-kinds-of-plants-and-their-future.aspx

    For those who can’t be bothered getting into the biochemistry of photosynthesis ( the most basic process for our life!!!) , I think Griff is simplifying matters by stating weeds respond faster to Co2 increases….. all depends on which weed, which crop, temperature levels, nitrogen concentrations, and water availability.

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  152. thedavincimode (6,877 comments) says:

    Maggy

    In Grief’s case, we all know what the weed/crop is; but we aren’t really in a position to assess temperature, nitrogen and water conditions in his hall cupboard.

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  153. Griff (8,199 comments) says:

    Maggy

    Matt Ridley’

    Ridley was chairman of Northern Rock from 2004 to 2007, having joined the board in 1994. His father had been chairman from 1987 to 1992 and sat on the board for 30 years.[32]

    In September 2007 Northern Rock became the first British bank since 1878 to suffer a run on its finances at the start of the credit crunch. It was forced to apply to the Bank of England for emergency liquidity funding, following problems caused by the financial crisis of 2007–08.[33] The failure of the bank eventually led to the nationalization of Northern Rock. Ridley went before a parliamentary committee which criticized him for not recognizing the risks of the bank’s financial strategy and thereby “harming the reputation of the British banking industry.”[11] He resigned as chairman in October 2007

    temperature levels, nitrogen concentrations, and water availability.

    All heading for negative effects under climate change.
    Temperature extremes are significantly effecting the global corn and soy crop already As have drought effected crop yields due to shifts in rainfall pattern. Nitrogen is sourced from? and results in emission into the atmosphere of? Simplification… you expect a thesis is going to make any difference to the likes of the post I was replying to?
    I find it disturbing that you of all people on here are in the camp of denial of sound science. Choosing to quote a failed banker when there is a huge resource available for the mechanics of crop growth and the outlook under climate change.

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  154. Griff (8,199 comments) says:

    :lol:
    bedroom and its been many years since I last played god with temperature, nutrients levels and ratios, duration intensity and wavelength of light and co2 /o2 ratio in a cupboard.
    When you do its easy to get massive yields but the energy input and effort is large as well.
    It was interesting but not any more than my prior hobby of breeding tropical fish basically a very similar exercise in environmental control.

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  155. nasska (11,813 comments) says:

    God made weed
    Man made beer
    In God we trust. :)

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  156. Manolo (14,070 comments) says:

    Highway robbery: http://money.msn.co.nz/businessnews/national/8872612/christchurch-taxis-most-expensive-in-the-world

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  157. thedavincimode (6,877 comments) says:

    Poor old Hone. Happiness used to be never having to say you’re sorry.

    He’ll be needing a regular supply of frozen peas to keep his balls iced down.

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  158. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ nasska (10,444 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 4:13 pm

    Don’t get too carried away, God also made me :P

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  159. thedavincimode (6,877 comments) says:

    I know that was you nursey.

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  160. nasska (11,813 comments) says:

    ….”Don’t get too carried away, God also made me”….

    At my age it pays not to get over excited Judith. :)

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  161. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Elaycee (4,260 comments) says:
    July 10th, 2014 at 2:55 pm

    That’s right, you carry on “Elaycee”. In fact why don’t you go to the media with your accusations about the victim and make a great big stink on behalf of Key etc. The bigger the stink the better – let everyone know that you think because the victim supports a different party, she has no right to speak about her concerns over the fact that the government dropped the ball.

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  162. Maggy Wassilieff (450 comments) says:

    @ Griff…. Don’t be disturbed about me being “in the camp of denial of sound science”. I can assure you I’ve still got a few brain cells functioning and its evidence-based, falsifiable science that I adhere to.

    All I do here is post up links that may enhance folks understanding of some topics (really just the ones that interest me).
    Whether Ridley was a good or bad banker is irrelevant to me…… He is a Zoologist and a talented science communicator, but that’s not really relevant either……. its the Chinese experiment that interested me.

    I know it bugs some people that I don’t fall into their little camp of green thought, but it shouldn’t disturb you. It is a scientist’s role to look at information/data with a critical eye….if I come across information that helps to shape some of the debates/postings that I’m following here, I’ll put them up. Feel free to ignore my postings….

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  163. Nookin (3,467 comments) says:

    “The bigger the stink the better – let everyone know that you think because the victim supports a different party, she has no right to speak about her concerns over the fact that the government dropped the ball.”

    Help me, Elaycee.

    I think I have read the whole thread reasonably carefully but try as I might, I cannot see where you have said that she has no rights to express her concerns because she may or may not support another party (a fact that has not really been established but which Judith seems to regard as a foregone conclusion).

    Give me a clue.

    Please?

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  164. Rowan (2,539 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/10253079/Labour-would-axe-earthquake-authority

    Cunliffe has well and truly lost the plot, another reason not to vote for labour. CERA like the National party are a neccessary evil.

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  165. Rowan (2,539 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10253082/Helen-Milner-appeal-decision-reserved

    Wouldn’t waste to much time on this one, maybe the COA could extend the sentance on this pyscopathic bitch like was done for Lundy back in 2002!

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  166. Redbaiter (9,632 comments) says:

    “Billingsleygate.”

    FFS..!!

    These media fuckheads trying hard to keep their dying cash crippled industry afloat only get traction on these beat ups because you allow them to.

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  167. Elaycee (4,410 comments) says:

    Help me, Elaycee.

    @Nookin: Sorry…. I’m unable to help. ‘Judith’ (nee Ginny) is off on another of her tangents. How she can reach such a daft conclusion defies logic. But she still manages to do it….

    I can understand why she was given the arse card from the Trade Me Community – folk can only take ‘so’ much….

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  168. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    @Kimbo

    As I understand it, “rape culture” is a general attitude that discourages and hinders transparency, justice and accountability for victims (aka “the marginalised”) by minimising, tolerating, or in some way aiding and abetting rape or those accused of it. It is especially demonstrated in entrenched and privileged positions of power (aka “the hegemony”)

    It’s a lot more than that. Were it just pointing out (a) that many people and institutions in our society have attitudes that sometimes make it hard to bring rapists to justice or recognise rapes for what they are, there wouldn’t be much to disagree with.

    But of course it doesn’t stop there: it also means (b) that our society normalises and accepts rape as a means of keeping women down (rapes for rape culture theorists serve the same function as lynchings), and that the motivation of rapists is essentially the same. Rapists are one man lynch mobs on this view (the “all rape is about power” meme). The fact that there is little to no empirical evidence that this is the case (along with it being absurd on the face of it) doesn’t bother them at all. For those interested, Steven Pinker takes only a couple of pages to completely obliterate this view in the Blank Slate.

    (a) is something that all reasonable and decent people could agree with. (b) is the ravings of a lunatic. Unfortunately, those who do most to promote the meme invariably believe in (b).

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  169. adze (2,129 comments) says:

    Terrible pack attack during a liquor store robbery from security footage just shown on One News. Just appalling.

    I hope they catch the feral shits.

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  170. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    …let everyone know that you think because the victim supports a different party…

    alleged victim. Innocent until proven guilty and all that. By politicising the case she’s now damaged her case and chances of ever getting “justice”. Which is why everyone is hypothesising about motivations and political connections. Unless your prescribe to Labour’s new policy of “guilty until proven innocent”?

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  171. Griff (8,199 comments) says:

    Matt Ridley is not in any way in the camp of sound science.
    http://www.skepticalscience.com/matt-ridley-wired-for-lukewarm-catastrophe.html
    http://www.desmogblog.com/matt-ridley
    He is talking of risk in his book the rational optimist. On examination he has a track record of badly underestimating risk.He also works for an oil industry sponsored pressure group that is involved in climate change denial

    .Still back to the grass.

    Fertilizer nitrogen based is made from natural gas increasing use will result in more co2 emissions.

    Water is projected to decrease in availability and reliability significantly.

    Temperature extremes are projected to increase giving more days with temperatures over 100F impacting on most of our common food crops ability to grow successfully.

    Moving towards the poles with agriculture to avoid the effects of the warming projected in the tropics and mid latitudes results in less available sunlight for plant growth.

    All these things add up to a negative prognoses in humanity’s ability to reliably feed the earths growing population.

    Not the rosy scenario that dons post on 1200ppm being good for plants suggest.

    This
    http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/
    http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/8560/1/02-1084.pdf?origin=publication_detail
    http://ecco2.jpl.nasa.gov/opendap/data1/misc/articles/96GL00723.pdf
    In conjunction with the the 1981 projection.

    Publication Abstracts
    Hansen et al. 1981

    Hansen, J., D. Johnson, A. Lacis, S. Lebedeff, P. Lee, D. Rind, and G. Russell, 1981: Climate impact of increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide. Science, 213, 957-966, doi:10.1126/science.213.4511.957.

    The global temperature rose 0.2°C between the middle 1960s and 1980, yielding a warming of 0.4°C in the past century. This temperature increase is consistent with the calculated effect due to measured increases of atmospheric carbon dioxide. Variations of volcanic aerosols and possibly solar luminosity appear to be primary causes of observed fluctuations about the mean trend of increasing temperature. It is shown that the anthropogenic carbon dioxide warming should emerge from the noise level of natural climate variability by the end of the century, and there is a high probability of warming in the 1980s. Potential effects on climate in the 21st century include the creation of drought-prone regions in North America and central Asia as part of a shifting of climatic zones, erosion of the West Antarctic ice sheet with a consequent worldwide rise in sea level, and opening of the fabled Northwest Passage.

    as well as this 1990 one
    http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abs/ri01500p.html

    gives just cause for a Negative prognoses.

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  172. goldnkiwi (1,545 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/10251917/Incest-paedophilia-like-being-gay-judge-says

    At least he isn’t one of ours.

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  173. OneTrack (3,233 comments) says:

    chris2 – “Anyone who knows anything about diplomatic status knows diplomats can not be detained or prevented by the host country from leaving.”

    It appears the Labour party and our left-wing news media don’t know anything about diplomatic status.

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  174. nasska (11,813 comments) says:

    On a par with Justice Cunningham I would think goldnkiwi.

    Both would be out of their depth in a bath.

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  175. big bruv (14,160 comments) says:

    I have no sympathy for Tania Billingsworth, and, an even deeper hatred for the stinking Greens and the left in general.

    That the Greens and the scum on the left would use the alleged attempted sexual attack on a female to score cheap political points just proves how low those wankers will go. Why does our media let scum like Jan Logie get away with this?

    As for Billingsworth, well I am sorry, she has outed herself as a political activist, one sympathetic to the left and therefore fully aware of what she was getting herself into when she went to TV3 wanting to tell her story. To then use that story as a naked attempt to score a hit on the Government means that she is no longer deserved of any sympathy.

    I actually doubt that Billngsworth is traumatised at all, anybody who genuinely was traumatised would not suffer through such an alleged attack and think “how can I spin this in favour of my political leanings”. I suspect that she knows she is going to hamper the chances of this man getting a fair trial, I suspect that she really does not care about her day in court, I suspect she has been encouraged by her Green scum mates to make the most of this while vermin like Logie can sit back and pour out faux concern.

    Once again the golden rule applies when dealing with the stinking Greens. Trust NOTHING they do and NOTHING they say.

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  176. EAD (1,329 comments) says:

    Good article over on Lew Rockwell which describes the cold hard naked truth about the current American Police State that began under Bush and has flourished under Obama:

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/07/john-w-whitehead/on-the-way-to-gestapo-land/

    The author lays out all of the facts, so naked that a child could can see it for what it is, and yet it is so politically inconvenient, incorrect and uncomfortable that few dare to speak of the truth right in front of them.

    “The most dangerous man, to any government, is the man who is able to think things out for himself…Almost inevitably, he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, and intolerable.”—H.L. Mencken, American journalist”

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  177. cha (4,081 comments) says:

    I actually doubt that Billngsworth is traumatised at all, anybody who genuinely was traumatised would not suffer through such an alleged attack and think

    So you’re familiar with how victims are supposed to re-act?.

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  178. MH (817 comments) says:

    anyone else notice the conspicuous by their absence of TV presenters Campbell, Hosking and Paul Henry. Are they one and the same? Or on some sort of Treasure Island contest or subliminal re indoctrination by the SIS. Dogs tracing tales.

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  179. stephieboy (3,406 comments) says:

    EAD , name prominent far right individuals like Lew Rockwell, Sarah Palin, Dinesh D’ Souza, Alex Jones etc who are under direct threat by this so called “gestapo land “.?

    http://sonsofgrizzly.com/blog/view/2908/myths-about-the-coming-obama-police-state

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  180. dad4justice (8,313 comments) says:

    “I have no sympathy for Tania Billingsworth”

    Why doesn’t that surprise me. What a vile creepy thing to say.

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  181. Harriet (5,132 comments) says:

    bruv#

    They always have a ‘war on women’ item for the general election – this election it is rape.

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  182. freemark (617 comments) says:

    A professor at Wayne State University in Detroit was giving a lecture on Paranormal Studies. To get a feel for his audience, he asks, “How many people here believe in ghosts?” About 90 students raise their hands. “Well, that’s a good start. Out of those who believe in ghosts, do any of you think you have seen a ghost?” About 40 students raise their hands. “That’s really good. I’m really glad you take this seriously. Has anyone here ever talked to a ghost?” About 15 students raise their hand. “Has anyone here ever touched a ghost?” Three students raise their hands. “That’s fantastic. Now let me ask you one question further…Have any of you ever made love to a ghost?” Way in the back, Ahmed raises his hand. The professor takes off his glasses and says, “Son, all the years I’ve been giving this lecture, no one has ever claimed to have made love to a ghost. You’ve got to come up here and tell us about your experience.” The Middle Eastern muslim student replied with a nod and a grin, and began to make his way up to the podium. When he reached the front of the room, the professor asks, “So, Ahmed, tell us what it’s like to have sex with a ghost?” Ahmed replied, “****, from way back there I thought you said Goats.”

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  183. goldnkiwi (1,545 comments) says:

    So now all victims or alleged victims of ‘anything’ are going to want to appear on tv?
    Surely all ‘things’ being equal or is this girl a special kind of victim?

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  184. goldnkiwi (1,545 comments) says:

    Hypothetically, I imagine that someone that didn’t ‘like’ men in the first instance might be particularly affronted with an attempted or successful male upon female sexual assault.

    I find the politicising of this matter extraordinary.

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  185. dirty harry (515 comments) says:

    Feral natives out of control again..they are the lowest form of scum and deserve nothing less than a bullet in their empty heads.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10253051/Attack-leaves-shopkeeper-unconscious

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  186. nasska (11,813 comments) says:

    With all your honour and dignity what would you do? This test only has one
    question, but it’s a very important one. Please don’t answer it without
    giving it some serious thought. By giving an honest answer you will be able
    to test where you stand morally. The test features an unlikely, completely
    fictional situation, where you will have to make a decision one way or the
    other.
    Remember that your answer needs to be honest, yet spontaneous.

    You’re in the North Island, North Auckland to be exact. There is great chaos going on around
    you, caused by gale force winds and severe floods. There are huge masses of water
    all over you. You are a Stuff photographer and you are in the middle of this
    great disaster. The situation is nearly hopeless.
    You’re trying to shoot very impressive photos. There are houses and people
    floating around you, disappearing into the rushing water. Nature is showing
    all of its destructive power and is ripping
    everything away with it. Suddenly you see a man in the water. He is fighting
    for his life, trying not to be taken away by the masses of water and mud.
    You move closer. Somehow the man looks familiar. Suddenly you recognize him.
    IT’S COLIN CRAIG!!!!!! At the same time, you notice that the raging
    waters are about to take him away forever. You have two options. You can
    save him or you can take the best photo of your life. So, you can save the
    life of the CCCP leader, or you can shoot a NZPA prize winning photo, a
    unique photo displaying the death of one of New Zealand’s conservative politicians.

    HERE’S THE QUESTION, AND PLEASE GIVE AN HONEST ANSWER:
    Would you select colour film, or go instead with the simplicity of classic
    black and white?

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  187. cha (4,081 comments) says:

    Goats!.

    It was fun, it was an adventure to be out there in the country and to see what goes on, picking up pecans, from that to all kinds of indecent things with animals. And I know some of you know what that is.

    Thad Cochran.

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  188. Viking2 (11,571 comments) says:

    BB, whilst agreeing generally with your sentiment about the Greens IMHO you are way off with attacking Billingworth.

    I have yet to see her refer at all to being a Green and using that in any way. It is clear others are using that as an excuse to lambast her as you have but what if she was your daughter. Would you sit back in your comfortable taxi cab and do nothing.
    I doubt it. You would be on here and everywhere else you could type and be making an even bigger fuss. Especially if it was a labour Govt. in charge.

    That guy was a Muhammad that was married and he chose to commit a home invasion (although that was excused as a burglary, which it wasn’t, it was a premeditated home invasion), and an attempted rape.
    As I said somewhere else if that had been a Maori you and thousands like you would have been yelling and screaming all over the blogsphere about it. But no you come here to attack the person whose home was invaded and who was an intended rape victim.
    Sure she has had assistance but that’s fair. Her comments on McCully were right on the mark especially as in earlier posts on other days McCully has been called a control freak by more than one or two posters. Clearly its not working.
    She is right about Key looking bored or half asleep at the wheel. He has looked like that all year. Go back and look at some 3 year old photo’s of him and compare them to today.
    He overworks like many exec’s. Of course he can’t delegate because he is so bloody short of decent talent after after losing his best to leaving Parliament. He is stuck with a bunch, half of who are hopeless and half who want his job.
    And he has himself to blame for that.

    As a taxpayer like myself you should be totally pissed off with the Malaysian Govt. A few weeks back they lost an airliner, you will recall. Well you and I as taxpayers fronted up with more than a few dollars and personnel and aircraft to look for the missing plane.
    Our thanks for that decent gesture was to have them to tell our police and Govt. to get fucked and recall the slime that perpetrated this crime so he could avoid being held accountable.

    Perhaps we should stop hosting Malaysians in our Universities again using the generous support of the taxpayer in NZ to help educate them as we have done for 50 years or so.
    Would we miss them, probably not as there are plenty to take their place.

    This is a cockup of National Party proportions and they deserve all the condemnation they get.

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  189. Steve (North Shore) (4,591 comments) says:

    Nasska,
    You get on an SD card and as soon as you can, contact Jan Logie.
    Make many copies for TV1, TV3, Horrid, Stuffed; and of course the special bits for No Idea and Womans Daze

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  190. big bruv (14,160 comments) says:

    Viking2

    “I have yet to see her refer at all to being a Green and using that in any way.”

    Had she not outed herself as “an activist and Green” I would not have made those comments. Given that she has then as far as I am concerned she is no longer deserved of sympathy.

    You ask what if she was my daughter?, a not entirely unfair question. My response to that question would be that I would still feel the same way. I would not want my daughter to politicise a crime that had allegedly been committed against her and I sure as hell would not have wanted a politician of any party within one hundred miles of her.

    Billingsworth has given up all rights for public sympathy, all though both she and the Greens know they can use this to their advantage given there is nobody in our media who will call this for what it is. She and the stinking Greens can blame anybody they like, stretch the facts as far as they wish because our media is not brave enough to go after scum like Logie for attempting to make political gain out of an alleged sexual attack.

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  191. goldnkiwi (1,545 comments) says:

    Did Paki’s burglary victims get on tv before the case was heard? I am sure they could have got some publicity for their business, could have pushed a barrow, politicised even since the verdict or have I missed something.

    Is this alleged sexual incident only ‘news’ because of the position of the perpetrator and connection to the government?

    Rhetorical.

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  192. Rowan (2,539 comments) says:

    “I have no sympathy for Tania Billingsworth, and, an even deeper hatred for the stinking Greens”

    Should we be surprised or expect anything better from Bigot Blouse?, blouse seems to have an intense hatred of many here simply because they don’t share his opinion, what a creep!

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  193. dad4justice (8,313 comments) says:

    Well said Rowan.

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  194. Sofia (867 comments) says:

    The “essay” by Tania Billingsley
    http://www.3news.co.nz/Portals/0/images/TANIA-ESSAY.pdf

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  195. Nostalgia-NZ (5,281 comments) says:

    I guess that will be evidence for the defence if the ‘dear’ diplomat overcomes his psychiatric difficulties. Poor chap seems to have been put in a compromising position, he probably thought she was sexually or politically confused and needed some sweet loving from a real little man so he followed her home. Probably happens all the time.

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  196. Griff (8,199 comments) says:

    Another case defending the right to bear arms http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/suspect-surrenders-slayings-four-children-two-adults-texas-n152361

    A man involved in a domestic dispute shot dead four child relatives, killed two adults who were with them, and critically wounded a teenage relative in a suburb of Houston Wednesday, before surrendering to police following a tense standoff, authorities said.

    Remember this is what New Zealand needs more assault weapons available just in-case .

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  197. Don the Kiwi (1,794 comments) says:

    Griff.

    Lets ban cars – they kill about 500 people per year in NZ alone.

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  198. cha (4,081 comments) says:

    Last year 254 people lost their lives on our roads Don, and… twice as many people people died every week in America, more than 300,000 people since 9/11, as a result of gunfire.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/07/under-a-blood-red-sky/260147/

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  199. Gulag1917 (1,020 comments) says:

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  200. balletgirl68 (19 comments) says:

    The little amount Ive seen of Tania Billingsley she seems pretty calculating to me. Far from being a distraught young woman she appears to be full of revenge for the wrong people. It was the Malaysian diplomat she should be angry at not the politicians (even though they were tardy). She has milked this for all she is worth…. whether a Green or not she has now prejudiced the whole case and the diplomat could get away scot free. I suspect in her naivety she though she could usurp the whole process and “make a difference” What a joke. No sympathy from me for this stupid woman.

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  201. Yoza (1,913 comments) says:

    Last!!

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  202. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Billingsley is a known left-wing activist and her performance makes one think it was a set up. Where do Goff, Mumblefuck, Robertson, and Little come into the equation?

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  203. Viking2 (11,571 comments) says:

    Surprisingly frank, she spoke to the Weekend Herald without Cunliffe or his advisers present.

    Price has been a hit since she began appearing in the media as part of her husband’s attempt to show more of his personality and background.

    Her first appearance on Campbell Live prompted “Karen for PM” calls on social media.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Mehahahahh

    Must be a bastard when your almost unknown wife is more wanted as first Lady than the Husband as PM.

    :lol: :lol: :lol:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11292215

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