General Debate 26 July 2014

July 26th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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226 Responses to “General Debate 26 July 2014”

  1. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10312603/Triple-tragedy-How-can-this-be-happening

    Strange, “Eerie” coincidence according to the writer…
    Blindingly obvious why this family of drunk drivers are wiping themselves out to everyone else (with half a brain..)

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  2. kowtow (8,487 comments) says:

    Australian multicultural dividend.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2705008/Australian-jihadist-poses-decapitated-heads-sickening-pictures-posted-online.html

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  3. wiseowl (895 comments) says:

    Waikato University to build campus in Toeranga.

    BOP Regional Council and the Power Trust putting up $15m each. WTF .

    Councils (ratepayers) should not be funding the building of Universities or have I got it wrong?

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  4. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Longknives (4,419 comments) says:
    July 26th, 2014 at 8:04 am

    People are still mystified by death, especially when it appears to target certain groups/families etc and come in clusters. It is the great unknown, the one thing we have learned to delay but not beat – therefore when it happens, such as in the example you give, of course people question it – it is the denial to accept that we are all mortal, and nothing, absolutely nothing can fix that condition, so instead we tend to look for the supernatural in such things.

    We can ‘not’ drive drunk, we can ‘not’ drive at all – wrap ourselves in cotton wool, eat nothing but mung beans, and become a zen master, but nothing short of a machine will stop eventual death – all our hearts will stop, and we will start to rot, and become food for the worms. That is about the only sure thing we have to bank on. The game is to see how long you can hold it off – not driving drunk is a good start.

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  5. Nukuleka (327 comments) says:

    I note that drug addict Darien Fenton called on parliament to legalise cannabis in her valedictory speech, assuring her listeners that it wasn’t her cannabis use that lead onto her using harder drugs and becoming an addict. No, it was all the fault of drug pushers. Sure honey, sure. Nothing to do with personal choice and the power of addiction. So the solution? Let the state and/or private enterprise become the legal drug pushers instead? Great logic.

    And I guess she believes that the drug pushing criminal element will then just disappear into the ether. Of course they won’t. They will simply move further up the drug ladder and push harder and more addictive drugs. It would be foolish indeed to move that line in the sand, Darien (and DPF).

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  6. Fisiani (1,039 comments) says:

    55 days till the election. The Cunliffe is obviously planning a late run. His campaign so far has been apology after apology. Putting out fires and trying to get Mallard to stop talking about moas. He promised to talk about the important things and then spent the last two days complaining about the referee in a debate. Despite this the media want a contest and even if The Cunliffe fails to fire the media will turn on John Key and National. See Paddy Gower’s attempted slurs on Gerry Brownlee as an example. I see the latest really important issue is who knew what about Crim Dot Con. Despite all this it could still be really close. Vote.

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  7. Colville (2,268 comments) says:

    nukuleka.
    Because the status quo is working so well?
    NZ is the most potted up country in the world isnt it?

    Edit.
    If it were my choice I would have Govt made/grown pot and E sold at the corner dairy and legal for personal consuption.

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  8. flipper (4,067 comments) says:

    Anyone else sick of the endless, mindless, “security” bullshit at airports ????

    Anyone who tells me that the Governor General (and staff), Prime Minister (and Staff), Cabinet Minsters (and staff), Opposition Leader (and staff), High Court ,and above, Judiciary, need to go through a security check because ” Jack is as good as his master” is talking bullshit.

    But I would go further and state that the very existence of this crazy system for internal jet powered flights is an insult that needs rectification.

    Of course there is the small matter of the small minds in the MSM, and the bureaucrats who would become redundant (solve that problem by no more recruiting).

    The whole Brownlee thing needs to be treated with a yawn.

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  9. Nostalgia-NZ (5,211 comments) says:

    I’d like the idea of ‘vote positive.’ But so far it’s been anything but, being positive is a state of mind, one by which people stick with decisions and explain them in a way that allows others to at least understand their position. Being on the front foot with good ideas shows through as reasoned positivity, others listen to the message spend less time on analysing the messenger. That’s not happening with Cunliffe. The most recent backing down for taking a holiday with his children unfortunately shows that Cunliffe doesn’t have the ability to understand that the holiday was a good message to the country, but the prevarication shows that many of his ‘positions’ seem negotiable according to the pressure. Which brings up the point of the Labour caucus meeting on Monday, how the f… they could insist that Cunliffe back track on his holiday without realising that it undermined his leadership, or showed that he was a puppet of a divided caucus is the reason why there is little fight left in their ranks.

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  10. tas (625 comments) says:

    Question: Suppose on September 21st Labour are within negotiating distance of goverment (e.g. a Labour+Green+NZF govt is possible). Will Cunliffe still get rolled? Will Cunliffe become PM and then get rolled, or will he get rolled and his successor will negotiate?

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  11. oldpark (331 comments) says:

    Why is it that David Cunliffe is always full of ingannation.

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  12. Griff (7,727 comments) says:

    We have one of the highest usages of cannabis in the world. We destroy the futures of our youth for the crime of smoking one harmless joint.
    Almost all studies find it is less harmful than alcohol. They also find that cannabis is not physically addictive.
    Buying cannabis exposes users to an unregulated criminal network. Selling cannabis funds most gang activity in this country and has done for years.
    your logic is circular self masturbation.

    Why is cannabis bad
    Because its illegal
    why is cannabis illegal
    because its bad.
    Why is cannabis bad………..

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  13. OneTrack (3,107 comments) says:

    tas – Whatever happened in that situation, Russel Norman would be in charge, with Metiria accusing anybody of racism if they don’t do what she wanted. Who in Labour wouldn’t fall into line?

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  14. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    “Why is cannabis bad………..”

    Tobacco vs. Marijuana

    Like tobacco smoke, marijuana smoke contains cancer-causing chemicals. There are 33 cancer-causing chemicals contained in marijuana. Marijuana smoke also deposits tar into the lungs. In fact, when equal amounts of marijuana and tobacco are smoked, marijuana deposits four times as much tar into the lungs. This is because marijuana joints are un-filtered and often more deeply inhaled than cigarettes.
    Marijuana smoke is also an irritant to the lungs, and frequent marijuana smokers can have many of the same respiratory problems experienced by people who smoke tobacco. These include coughing and phlegm production on most days, wheezing, bronchitis, and greater risk of lung infection.

    http://www.lung.org/about-us/

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  15. G152 (341 comments) says:

    Legalise and tax cannabis.
    That should release hundreds of cops to investigate real crime.

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  16. Griff (7,727 comments) says:

    vaporizor
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporizer_(inhalation_device)
    An illegal instrument in this country for cannabis use.
    Thanks andy for pointing out yet more harm done by prohibition.
    With a vaporizor, you only inhale the THC (the drug which makes you feel good), not the smoke or burning from the plant. Vaporizers also produce significantly (nearly zero) smoke, so you can use it in your house or apartment without it smelling like marijuana. Finally, vaporizers are more efficient than a bong, as the plant isn’t burning while you’re not using it.

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  17. Brian Smaller (4,023 comments) says:

    Australian multicultural dividend.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2705008/Australian-jihadist-poses-decapitated-heads-sickening-pictures-posted-online.html

    Probably radicalised because Muslims are so persecuted by the Australian government. /sarc

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  18. publicwatchdog (2,596 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  19. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    You’re right about the vaporiser Griff. In the US states where marijuana sales are legal, the sales of vaporisers have soared also.
    I have friends who use them here and swear by them.

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  20. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Health effects of THC

    Long-term effects

    * Brain function: The ability to learn and remember is impaired by regular cannabis use. Short-term memory is especially affected. Regular users also find it harder to concentrate.
    * Motivation: Regular users find it hard to stay motivated for sport, school and work, and their energy levels suffer. These effects do diminish over time after cannabis use is stopped.
    * Hormones: There is evidence that cannabis affects a person’s hormones. Regular users sometimes report a lower sex drive, irregular menstrual cycles for women and lower sperm counts for men.
    * Immune system: There is emerging evidence that regular cannabis use may harm the immune system.

    Mental health: There is growing evidence linking cannabis use and mental illness. Individuals who are susceptible to mental illness put themselves at greater risk of psychotic symptoms when using cannabis. Cannabis also appears to make psychotic symptoms worse for people with schizophrenia.
    Drug-induced psychosis can also result from heavy and prolonged use of cannabis. Symptoms include hallucinations, delusions, memory loss, and confusion, and can last up to several days.

    Currently there is no evidence to suggest that occasional use of small amounts of cannabis causes any permanent damage.

    http://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/cannabis/health-effects

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  21. All_on_Red (1,583 comments) says:

    Wouldn’t it be funny to see a few skyrockets set off into Penny’s crowd at 2 pm to see how they react. I bet they’d run like hell crying out for mummy. And the Police. /hypocrisy

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  22. Yvette (2,820 comments) says:

    Dotcom’s bombshell

    Dotcom also reiterated his promise that five days before the election, the world will “witness a moment of truth” …
    “We’re about to make history”, he said.
    http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jul/25/kim-dotcom-interview-the-internet-party-will-abolish-mass-surveillance-snowden

    Most likely will be something that implies or even proves that Prime Minister John Key knew of his existence before he claims he did, being the day prior to Dotcom’s arrest.

    It is well documented that Leader of the Opposition, David Cunliffe, met in Queenstown with the Man With No Name and accepted a bottle of wine as a gift from him and lunched with him, introduced him to the local Labour Candidate, then Cunliffe denied he knew of the Man With No Name’s “status”, but later admitted that was incorrect and he indeed did know before the meeting.

    Which, if either, is the bigger problem?

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  23. Duxton (651 comments) says:

    @ Penny Bright at 9.20am:

    That’s good. Perhaps you could call into the Council Building while you are in town, and pay your rates…….

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  24. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    publicwatchdog says:

    “Those opposed to Israeli STATE TERRORISM and the murder of Palestinian little kids and civilians in Gaza will be assembling at 2pm at Aotea Square today, Saturday 26 July 2014. I’ll be there. Penny Bright.”

    Yes, how dare those f*ck1ng Jews try to stop rockets being fired at their cities for 13 years.
    How dare they blow up tunnels constructed to kidnap and kill civilians.
    How dare they shell places used by terrorists to fire and store rockets.
    How dare they oppose a regime that calls for their destruction.

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  25. Griff (7,727 comments) says:

    Relatively harmless.
    What part of this statement are you having trouble with Other Andy?

    The first post today was on one family having three members killed by the effects of alcohol.

    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2810%2961462-6/abstract

    Findings
    MCDA modelling showed that heroin, crack cocaine, and metamfetamine were the most harmful drugs to individuals (part scores 34, 37, and 32, respectively), whereas alcohol, heroin, and crack cocaine were the most harmful to others (46, 21, and 17, respectively). Overall, alcohol was the most harmful drug (overall harm score 72), with heroin (55) and crack cocaine (54) in second and third places..

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  26. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    People who smoke dope are gross and they smell.

    That is all.

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  27. flipper (4,067 comments) says:

    Heh, Pennybrainless, and Rent-a-demo Minto…..

    By July 24, Hamas had fired 2160 rockets into Israel since July 8th, which equates to one every 10 minutes.

    The Palestinians are lucky it’s Israel on the receiving end because if it was any other country there would be a bloodbath in Palestine.

    It’s a shame Hamas aren’t using the aid they receive from Israel to build a brighter future.

    But Pennyidiot, that does not suit your narrative,. And it exposes the lie that is Minto et al

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  28. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    I very much doubt that Kiwis would be so accepting of such atrocities committed in their name. A few anonymous trolls on KB, excepted.

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  29. Keeping Stock (10,342 comments) says:

    @ Penny Bright – how about you tell your Palestinian mates in Hamas to stop firing off rockets at Israel, inviting a response. They know what the response is going to be, and it is Hamas who are putting the people in Gaza at risk because of their provocation.

    It’s a bit like poking a stick into a wasp’s next, then complaining when you get stung by a swarm of angry wasps, pissed off at having their afternoon nap interrupted. Any sensible person would not do that again, but Hamas people are clearly not sensible.

    Yes; the death toll in Gaza is far higher than it is in Israel. That’s because the IDF is better trained, and better equipped than Hamas, yet Hamas keeps firing off rockets knowing there will be a response, and knowing that response will cause further carnage. For their to be peace in the Holy Land, BOTH sides need to be prepared to lay down their weapons, not just Israel.

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  30. rightoverlabour (108 comments) says:

    Hi Flipper. My thoughts exactly on Brownlee. He is the Mister in charge of Transport Safety. He should have the highest security pass available.

    As for penny Bright and her bunch, anyone got a stray missile we could send that way? Get rid of a few public nuisances in one go. There is no way that I don’t feel for the innocents getting killed in Gaza, but Hamas are ruthless terrorists, and the fewer the better.

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  31. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Re Brownlee. It’s not about whether the rules are sensible (they aren’t); it’s whether he deliberately broke them (he did). He’ll have his day in court though – maybe a discharge without conviction?

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  32. dirty harry (489 comments) says:

    PennyDim..why dont you and Minto get on a plane and fuck off to Palestine..you would do better over there waving your flags. Hopefully Israel would hone in on your stupid hat with an Exocet.

    The muslim loser who left Aussie to go play war games in Syria. Thats reason enough to ban muslims coming to these shores.
    Further more deport every single muslim in NZ ( except Farook down the road at the egyptian kebab house..great kebabs Farook , bit more chilli sauce next time ) they are a fuckin blight on the planet , we dont want them or their wretched children here.

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  33. Twinkletoes (53 comments) says:

    This Palestinian offensive seems to have happened in order to draw the public’s attention away from their brother’s barbarism in Syria and Iraq. They have put Palestine in second place in world news and they are upset that the world is not giving Palestine full attention.

    They seem to want us to believe that Jews are the only people that murder ‘innocent’ muslims and their noses have been put out of joint! The Palestinians must be seen to be the only muslims who deserve world attention and sympathy. Never a word about the Christians in Mosul who are being ethnically cleansed! It is all about the poor muslims.

    Can’t have the eye of the world removed from Palestine, especially by other murderous muslims in the M.E. Might have people questioning their so called ‘tolerance’!

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  34. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Yes, the world should ignore death in Gaza because innocent people are being murdered elsewhere as well. Fuckwit.

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  35. oldpark (331 comments) says:

    @Nostaglia.Heard someone say lets hope Labour voters(,if any) dont start looking on the ballot papers to vote?” POSITIVE”.

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  36. dirty harry (489 comments) says:

    Nail on the head Twinkletoes..” those nasty Israelis , how dare they fight back “.

    I wish the rabid msm would open the other eye.

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  37. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Flipper, the same gotta to get somewhere fast yawn as the PM travelling at speed on the road when with a police escort …

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  38. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    Via Powerlineblog:

    Leaks have begun to trickle out on what Israeli interogators are learning from captured Hamas fighters. One plot in particular is getting overwhelming attention.

    Hamas was apparently a few months away from conducting a mass attack on Israeli civilians during the upcoming Jewish holiday of Rosh Hashana, on September 24. The raid would have been like something out of a movie: hundreds of heavily-armed Hamas fighters would have emerged from over a dozen underground tunnels in the dead of night, jogged 10 minutes to their targets, and then infiltrated a set of lightly-populated and lightly-guarded Israeli communities. Casualties could have reached the thousands, and some of the victims would have been taken back alive as hostages.

    The offensive attack tunnels seem to quite literally have been built for this kind of purpose. The IDF recently published a map of how they were dug to spill out on both sides of nearby communities (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtYjL4mCAAAI6c6.png). Israeli soldiers have been reporting that just inside some of the tunnels were storage units filled with tranquilizers, handcuffs, ropes, and so on.

    Yet I am sure that our resident left-wingers will find a justification for the plan.

    Further on:

    (3) Confirmation of the plot would raise the stakes in the growing controversy over how human rights groups and diplomatic bodies pressured the Israelis into liberalizing restrictions on cement imports. Kilometers and kilometers of reinforced tunnels were being built deep into Israeli territory while Gaza-based offiicals railed against cement shortages. Some critics have already begun to name names, and the debate is already become very granular: TIP held a conference call yesterday in which one expert described how Hamas filled emptied UNRWA relief bags with dirt and then drove them away in UN-painted trucks, so that drones overhead saw what looked like a UN-sanctioned aid convoy.

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  39. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    ‘Casualties could have reached the thousands’
    Luckily the Israelis have knocked that one on the head, and at a cost of only a few hundred Palestinian dead.

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  40. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Interesting point made on the Nation, that I wasn’t aware of. If Gerry is convicted, he could possibly be prevented from travelling overseas – which will seriously impact his ability to do his job.

    So – if Gerry is charged, will it be because of what he is?

    OR – if Gerry isn’t charged, will it be because of what he is?

    Damned if they do, and damned if they don’t? What message will it give internationally if we don’t take airport security seriously? But what message does it give to New Zealander’s when such a seemingly innocent and innocuous action, is treated too severely?

    We can’t laugh it off – or can we?

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  41. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Twinkletoes, the issue is expectations. One has higher ones for a democratically elected government than for what passes for government (elected or otherwise) and self anointed caliphate jihadists in the wider region.

    To put it bluntly, we have higher expectations of Jews than Moslems as fellow human beings. We see the latter as less evolved in the sense of proper behaviour towards others, respect for life liberty and pursuit of happiness etc.

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  42. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    mikenmild says:

    “Yes, the world should ignore death in Gaza because innocent people are being murdered elsewhere as well.”

    You mean those ‘innocent people’ who voted for Hamas which calls for the destruction of Israel?
    You mean those ‘innocent people’ who cheered when Hamas eliminated the political opposition?
    You mean those ‘innocent people’ who celebrate whenever a Jew gets killed?
    You mean those ‘innocent people’ who turn a blind eye when rockets and weapons are stored and fired in their house?
    You mean those ‘innocent people’ who think it is OK to strap explosives on animals trying to blow up Jews?
    You mean those ‘innocent people’ who turn a blind eye when rockets and weapons are stored in the mosque?
    You mean those ‘innocent people’ who think it is OK to strap explosives on mentally handicapped trying to blow up Jews?
    You mean those ‘innocent people’ who turn a blind eye when rockets and weapons are stored in UN schools?
    You mean those ‘innocent people’ who turn a blind eye when hospitals are used as command bunkers?
    You mean those ‘innocent people’ who turn a blind eye when tunnels are dug under their houses with the aim to kill and kidnap Israeli citizens?
    You mean those ‘innocent people’ who have children’s’ television programs demonising Jews?
    You mean those ‘innocent people’ who dress up their children as suicide bombers in parades?
    You mean those ‘innocent people’ who use women and children as human shields?

    Those innocent people?

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  43. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I can’t agree with that SPC. All are human beings. If you start to see one group as ‘less evolved’ then you are far down the track of seeing them as less worthy of basic human rights.

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  44. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    On Gerry, losing civil aviation is appropriate. Not keeping the rules of his own ministry.

    If we seriously believed domestic aviation posed a terrorist threat we would not have security at only 3 airports – planes fly to these major centres from other regional airports with little or no security.

    And that aside exemptions for senior figures such as Ministers in domestic travel is appropriate in any case.

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  45. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Other Andy is all in favour of collective punishment for the sins of the few. The Ward Churchill argument.

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  46. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    mikenmild, it does not speak to expectations of ourselves but the standard we expect of others.

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  47. flipper (4,067 comments) says:

    Does any really serious student of public affairs or politics watch the so called “nation”?

    The whole programme is a total load of rubbish, a waste of tax dollars via NZ on Air, and counts for nothing.

    En passant, as I said some two hours ago:
    ***flipper (3,541 comments) says:

    July 26th, 2014 at 8:43 am

    Anyone else sick of the endless, mindless, “security” bullshit at airports ????

    Anyone who tells me that the Governor General (and staff), Prime Minister (and Staff), Cabinet Minsters (and staff), Opposition Leader (and staff), High Court (and above) Judiciary, need to go through a security check because ” Jack is as good as his master” is talking bullshit.

    But I would go further and state that the very existence of this crazy system (for internal jet powered flights) is an insult that needs rectification.

    Of course there is the small matter of the small minds in the MSM, and the bureaucrats who would become redundant (solve that problem by no more recruiting).

    The whole Brownlee thing needs to be treated with a yawn.
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  48. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Other Andy, there are those who do not agree, but to say so would be at great personal risk – those with the gun or will to abuse women control what happens in public in the wider ME.

    And beyond – in Pakistan anyone daring to make a public stand defending civil liberties etc is at risk of being murdered.

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  49. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    mikenmild says:

    “Other Andy is all in favour of collective punishment for the sins of the few. The Ward Churchill argument.”

    Starting with a strawman as usual.

    It doesn’t distract from the fact that your statement “Yes, the world should ignore death in Gaza because innocent people are being murdered elsewhere as well.” is absolute and utter nonsense.

    Keep to the facts and try debating without the logical fallacies, you are starting to sound like the village idiot.

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  50. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    You’re the one disputing that the civilians in Gaza could be termed ‘innocent’. That’s blaming the victims.

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  51. fr8traindigital (11 comments) says:

    The war on drugs has not worked anywhere where there is freedom of choice, because most people generally choose a bit of this, e.g. alcohol, p’haps a bit of that e.g. weed, and so on and then get on with their lives, choosing good foods and/or bad, sporting activities and/or brain workouts – we’re all individual chemical vats and we usually learn not to o/d too much too often. Criminalising people for personal drug use is a huge waste of time & mostly does more harm than good. Personal use of drugs is a health/mental issue, police need to focus resources on catching the bad guys!

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  52. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Old Andy, if civilians in Gaza are not innocent – then civilians who elect the Israeli governments with a policy of occupying the West Bank and expanding settlements are not innocent.

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  53. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    Are these civilians innocent enough?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2703938/The-West-sympathetic-Israel-Britain-s-warning-Netanyahu-concerns-grows-rise-civilian-deaths-Palestine.html

    How about we compare the courage of those doctors working in these conditions to save innocent lives with cowardice of the gutless anonymous trolls on KB. You chinless wonders should be ashamed of yourselves!

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  54. flipper (4,067 comments) says:

    Heh milky one and pennydimwit fans…

    Choke on this email that I received from a friend in Europe, confirming that the worm is turning and that Hamas et al, are now being held to account, even by the European intelligentsia:
    ***
    ” *** … Hard to argue with this:
    A German’s View on Islam – well worth reading.

    This is one of the best explanations of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read. His references to past history are accurate and clear. Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read.

    The author of this email is Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist. A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

    ‘Very few people were true Nazis,’ he said, ‘but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come.’

    ‘My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.’

    ‘We are told again and again by ‘experts’ and ‘talking heads’ that Islam is a religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.’

    ‘The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.’

    ‘The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the ‘silent majority,’ is cowed and extraneous. Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China ‘s huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.’

    ‘The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And who can forget Rwanda , which collapsed into butchery? Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were ‘peace loving’?

    ‘History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because like my friend from Germany , they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.’

    ‘Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.’

    ‘Now Islamic prayers have been introduced in Toronto and other public schools in Ontario , and, yes, in Ottawa , too, while the Lord’s Prayer was removed (due to being so offensive?). The Islamic way may be peaceful for the time being in our country until the fanatics move in.’

    ‘In Australia , and indeed in many countries around the world, many of the most commonly consumed food items have the halal emblem on them. Just look at the back of some of the most popular chocolate bars, and at other food items in your local supermarket. Food on aircraft have the halal emblem just to appease the privileged minority who are now rapidly expanding within the nation’s shores.’

    ‘In the U.K, the Muslim communities refuse to integrate and there are now dozens of “no-go” zones within major cities across the country that the police force dare not intrude upon. Sharia law prevails there, because the Muslim community in those areas refuse to acknowledge British law.’

    ‘As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts – the fanatics who threaten our way of life.’

    Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand.

    Extend yourself a bit and send this on. Let us hope that thousands world-wide read this, think about it, and send it on before it’s too late, and we are silenced because we were silent!!!

    No virus found in this message.
    Checked by AVG – http://www.avg.com
    Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7890 – Release Date: 07/20/14
    No virus found in this message.
    Checked by AVG – http://www.avg.com
    Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 3986/7890 – Release Date: 07/20/14 ”

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  55. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Yes, the expansion in availability of halal food products is especially troubling.

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  56. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    mikenmild says:

    “You’re the one disputing that the civilians in Gaza could be termed ‘innocent’.”

    Fact: The great majority of Arabs in Gaza actively support the MB and Hamas and their charter and support their methods.

    Don’t confuse and compare those ‘innocent’ supporters of Hamas and the MB with the truly innocent Christians and other religious minorities who are discriminated against and killed on a daily basis by Muslims in Nigeria, Sudan, Pakistan etc.

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  57. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    For anyone who is interested, there is an awesome, very informative book about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict called, Battleground: Fact & Fantasy in Palestine written by Samual (Shmuel) Katz in 1973. It’s out-of-print (although still available second hand through Amazon) and the whole book can be downloaded in PDF form from http://shmuelkatz.com/Books.shtml

    It puts paid to many of the myths, such as the Jews forcing out Palestinians during the 1948 war (it was actually Arab leaders who told them to leave). The book is highly documented with references cited (many coming from Arab sources). Snippet below –

    The Arab refugees were not driven from Palestine by anyone. The vast majority left, whether of their own free will or at the orders or exhortations of their leaders, always with the same reassurance that their departure would help in the war against Israel. Attacks by Palestinian Arabs on the Jews had begun two days after the United Nations adopted its decision of November 29, 1947, to divide western Palestine into an Arab and a Jewish state. The seven neighboring Arab states Syria, Lebanon, Transjordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Egypt then prepared to invade the country as soon as the birth of the infant State of Israel was announced.

    Their victory was certain, they claimed, but it would be speeded and made easier if the local Arab population got out of the way. The refugees would come back in the wake of the victorious Arab armies and not only recover their own property but also inherit the houses and farms of the vanquished and annihilated Jews. Between December 1, 1947, and May 15, 1948, the clash was largely between bands of local Arabs, aided by the disintegrating British authority, and the Jewish fighting organizations.

    The earliest voluntary refugees were understandably the wealthier Arabs of the towns, who made a comparatively leisurely departure in December 1947 and in early 1948. At that stage, departure had not yet been proclaimed as a policy or recognized as a potential propaganda weapon. The Jaffa newspaper Ash Shalab thus wrote on January 30, 1948:

    “The first group of our fifth column consists of those who abandon their houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere. . . . At the first sign of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle.”

    Another weekly, As-Sarih of Jaffa, used even more scathing terms on March 30, 1948, to accuse the inhabitants of Sheikh Munis and other villages in the neighborhood of Tel Aviv of “bringing down disgrace on us all” by “abandoning their villages.” On May 5, the Jerusalem correspondent of the London Times was reporting: “The Arab streets are curiously deserted and, ardently following the poor example of the more moneyed class there has been an exodus from Jerusalem too, though not to the same extent as in Jaffa and Haifa.”

    As the local Arab offensive spread during the late winter and early spring of 1948, the Palestinian Arabs were urged to take to the hills, so as to leave the invading Arab armies unencumbered by a civilian population. Before the State of Israel had been formally declared – and while the British still ruled the country – over 200,000 Arabs left their homes in the coastal plain of Palestine.

    These exhortations came primarily from their own local leaders. Monsignor George Hakim, then Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, the leading Christian personality in Palestine for many years, told a Beirut newspaper in the summer of 1948, before the flight of Arabs had ended:

    “The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the ‘Zionist gangs’ very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile.” [Sada at Tanub, August 16, 1948]

    The exodus was indeed common knowledge. The London weekly Economist reported on October 2, 1948:

    “Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades.”

    And the Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station from Cyprus stated on April 3, 1949: “It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees’ flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem.”

    Even in retrospect, in an effort to describe the deliberateness of the flight, the leading Arab propagandist of the day, Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London), reaffirmed the facts:

    “This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country.”

    Kenneth Bilby, one of the Americans who covered Palestine for several weeks during the war of 1948, wrote soon afterwards on his experience and observations:

    “The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.” [New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31]

    After the war, the Palestine Arab leaders did try to help people –including their own–to forget that it was they who had called for the exodus in the early spring of 1948. They now blamed the leaders of the invading Arab states themselves. These had added their voices to the exodus call, enough not until some weeks after the Palestine Arab fighter Committee had taken a stand. The war was not yet over when Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, the official leadership of the Palestinian Arabs, stated in an interview with a Beirut newspaper:

    I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem. [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 1948]

    In retrospect, the Jordanian newspaper Falastin wrote on February 19, 1949:

    The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies.

    The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. . . . He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. . . Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.

    As late as 1952, the charge had the official stamp of the Arab Higher Committee. In a memorandum to the Arab League states, the Committee wrote:

    Some of the Arab leaders and their ministers in Arab capitals . . . declared that they welcomed the immigration of Palestinian Arabs into the Arab countries until they saved Palestine. Many of the Palestinian Arabs were misled by their declarations…. It was natural for those Palestinian Arabs who felt impelled to leave their country to take refuge in Arab lands . . . and to stay in such adjacent places in order to maintain contact with their country so that to return to it would be easy when, according to the promises of many of those responsible in the Arab countries (promises which were given wastefully), the time was ripe. Many were of the opinion that such an opportunity would come in the hours between sunset and sunrise.

    Most pointed of all was the comment of one of the refugees: “The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in.”

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  58. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    SPC says:

    “Old Andy, if civilians in Gaza are not innocent – then civilians who elect the Israeli governments with a policy of occupying the West Bank and expanding settlements are not innocent.”

    The West Bank?
    Settlements?

    Newspeak for Judea and Samaria and towns in those areas?

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  59. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Fletch, regarding the Palestinian Arab population movements. There were two distinct categories, those Arabs in areas awarded for an Israeli state, and those Arabs in areas awarded for Palestine that the Israeli military moved into and annexed into Israel. In the case of the latter not all population movements were voluntary.

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  60. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    “Other Andy is all in favour of collective punishment for the sins of the few. The Ward Churchill argument.”

    The problem mikey is that your’e whitewashing the reality to suit your emotive argument. When dealing with the population of Gaza, we are not talking “a few” guilty persons, we are talking most of the adult population, which supports terrorism and HAMAS.

    If people vote for and support terrorist groups, especially ones in favor of racial genocide, they are not innocent.

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  61. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Old Andy, consider what flipper posted before presuming that all civilians in Gaza voted for and support Hamas.

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  62. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Shawn, the vote for Hamas in Gaza was many years ago. The West Bank also voted for Hamas then because Fatah was seen as becoming corrupt – since then the voting results in the West Bank have changed. But there has been no new vote in Gaza. The Hamas gun controls the area.

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  63. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    SPC,

    yes, that is a fair point. But it does not change mine as far as I can see.

    “The Hamas gun controls the area.”

    True, and it is a horrific tragedy for those in the minority who did not and do not support them. But then we are back to the fact that Israel, or for that matter any country that tries to deal with terrorism, is between a rock and a hard place, precisely because of the terrorist tactic of operating within civilian populations. There are no easy answers to that problem.

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  64. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    SPC says:

    “Old Andy, consider what flipper posted before presuming that all civilians in Gaza voted for and support Hamas.”

    No argument there SPC.
    Never said all of them are supporting Hamas.

    However, the majority do and the rest turns a blind eye (And yes, sometimes for good reasons).
    All those thousands that turn up at Hamas rallies in Gaza are not forced to shout ‘Death to Israel’.

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  65. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    Repeating myself…

    It’s out-of-print (although still available second hand through Amazon) and the whole book can be downloaded in PDF form from http://shmuelkatz.com/Books.shtml

    Did I mention it was free? Yes, it’s free.

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  66. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    Just by-the-by, Israel is calling the U.N a liar as regarding the civilian casualties incurred during an attack on a school, and the evacuation of same.

    Israel is calling out a United Nations aid agency for falsely claiming that the Israeli Defense Forces did not permit civilians to evacuate a Gaza school where 15 people were killed today.

    The U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) laid blame for the civilian deaths on the IDF, claiming it never received approval from the IDF for an evacuation from the facility.

    UNRWA—which has been under fire in recent days for allowing Hamas to use its facilities to store rockets—released a statement claiming: “UNRWA had been attempting to negotiate with the [IDF] a pause in the fighting during which they would guarantee a safe corridor to relocate staff and any displaced persons who chose to evacuate to a more secure location. Approval for that never came to UNRWA.”

    Earlier, UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness had similarly accused the IDF of preventing a civilian evacuation.

    “Over the course of the day UNRWA tried 2 coodinate [sic] with the Israeli Army a window for civilians 2 leave & it was never granted,” UNRWA spokesman Chris Gunness tweeted, following the strike.

    However, in an unusual move late Thursday, multiple IDF sources rejected UNRWA’s claims and characterized them as outright falsehoods when reached by the Washington Free Beacon.

    “For two days we were trying to move people out of that school in particular and the Beit Hanoun area in general,” said an IDF official who was involved in the interactions between the IDF, UNRWA, and International Red Cross (ICRC) leading up to the incident.

    The official continued: “This morning we sought a cease-fire in the area and a humanitarian evacuation of civilians, but Hamas refused—because they wanted to keep civilians in the area to protect their fighters who were firing on the IDF,” the source said. The claim by Gunness and UNRWA that the IDF did not respond to their request to evacuate civilians, the source said, is “a flat-out complete and total lie.”

    When asked for further details about the incident, UNRWA claimed that its school in Beit Hanoun had been turned into “a battlefield” in recent days.

    Many Palestinians, including women and children, had sought shelter from the fighting in the school, believing it to be safe territory, according to UNRWA.

    “This is the fourth time in the past four days that an UNRWA school has been struck by explosive projectiles,” UNRWA said.

    An official IDF statement released to the Free Beacon states that “the IDF authorized a humanitarian time window for evacuation between 10:00-14:00 IDT earlier today. Hamas prevented the civilians from leaving it and once again used their infrastructure and international symbols as human shields. In the course of the afternoon, several rockets launched by Hamas from within the Gaza Strip landed in the Beit Hanoun area.”

    MORE – http://freebeacon.com/national-security/idf-calls-out-un-for-lying-about-gaza-civilian-casualties/

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  67. Manolo (13,780 comments) says:

    Another criminal pledges support: http://news.yahoo.com/hezbollah-leader-vows-support-gazans-165019873.html

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  68. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ flipper

    The whole Brownlee thing needs to be treated with a yawn.

    I understand your sentiment, and that was my initial take on it – especially given the timing and the fact that everyone is watching for anyone that makes the slightest error, ready to exaggerate it out of all proportions.

    But as it was put to me, when I was expressing my liking of Gerry –

    it was not too long ago that this government was requesting the public of New Zealand recognise the very real threat of terrorism to this country – when they were trying to get the surveillance bill passed. Many stated that it was too much, not needed, and Key told us otherwise, and convinced us it was very much needed.

    Now, they would like us to put the fact aside that the ‘threat’ according to them, is so serious they can monitor us in our own homes (invade our privacy), and to now accept that a breach of security measures, is nothing – a non-event and that we should over look it.

    The government is on tender ground with this one – you cannot ask the public to accept one thing and then flaunt those very restrictions whenever it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge a breach.

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  69. lilman (959 comments) says:

    Collville,love your statement “because the status quo is working” with regard to legalizing drugs.

    Thats fine,so should we legalize rape,sodomy,assault and all other forms of self choice that people are prepared to do because I am definitely sure the status quo isn’t working with regard these habits.

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  70. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Yes, we should legalise the voluntary ingestion of all psychoactive substances. Your other examples are cases of harm inlicted on others.

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  71. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Shawn
    Your argument above: ‘If people vote for and support terrorist groups, especially ones in favor of racial genocide, they are not innocent’ is exactly the one used to claim that those who died on 9/11 were not innocent victims because they had voted for American governments that had committed perceived crimes.

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  72. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Christ not another protest Penny? How long do we have to put up with Auckland shuddering to a halt so a few smelly ‘Rent a Mob’ Protesters can wave Mana flags and bang saucepans while a bunch of wannabe Terrorists from the local Mosque shout “Allahu Akbar”??

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  73. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    lilman, where were you in 1986? And yes “it” was legal for heterosexuals before 1986.

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  74. Griff (7,727 comments) says:

    :lol:

    rape,sodomy,assault and all other forms of self choice

    Sodomy between consenting adults is legal in this country.

    The other two are inflicted against your will by definition.

    You have the IQ of a molten chocolate fish lilman

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  75. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    lilman 11.54am, what makes you think that sodomy is illegal? Do you get your law from some book out of the ME?

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  76. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    I would distinguish between addictive and non addictive drugs.

    I can accept the legal availability of marijuana (which I would sell by ration card to control usage and reduce risk of on-supply to minors) and ecstasy/party pills, but not the addictive.

    And I would determine usage by THC content to discourage development of ever more potent variants.

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  77. flipper (4,067 comments) says:

    Hi Judith…

    The problems we have here are three-fold:

    1. There is media antipathy toward Gerry Brownlee because he is “big”, does not suffer fools, and calls spades shovels, when justified

    2. The child-like MSM, and some blog participants (no cut at U), are desperate for any anti-J Key/Govt/National ” scandal,” and

    3. The whole bloody business (the legislation/regs) is built on an absurd knee jerk reaction to 9/11….. but maintained umpteen years on….. and only one ersatz scare, that on a secondary route (from memory) and involving Somali (?) woman.

    As I said earlier above ….

    “…Anyone who tells me that the Governor General (and staff), Prime Minister (and Staff), Cabinet Minsters (and staff), Opposition Leader (and staff), High Court (and above) Judiciary, need to go through a security check because ” Jack is as good as his master” is talking bullshit. ….”

    As the Minister who oversees those regulations, he must by definition have the highest carte blanche security clearance (for him, his wife and family, and his personal staff while engaged in “official business”).

    The amusing consequence would be to see him prosecuted for a breech of a law, the administration of which is his responsibility (but of course delegated).

    Those that want this matter pursued would be doing the public service if they campaigned for the abolition of those domestic flight checks… or at worst put in place a random spot check system (which means there would be some profiling).

    The whole thing is much-a-do about nothing worth while…… and seems to be an ideal target for the new legislative review committee.

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  78. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    No more Game of Thrones for this kid

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/10313907/Keisha-Castle-Hughes-cast-in-Game-of-Thrones

    Shame- I loved that show. But the thought of Keisha Druggie Hughes using it as a platform for her Political Activism makes my stomach churn…

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  79. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    The images from Gaza are searing, a gallery of death and horror. A dishevelled Palestinian man cries out in agony, his blood-soaked little brother dead in his arms. On a filthy hospital bed a boy of perhaps five or six screams for his father, his head and body lacerated by shrapnel. A teenage girl lies on a torn stretcher, her limbs awry, her face and torso blackened like a burnt steak. Mourners weep over a family of 18 men, women and children laid side by side in bloodied shrouds. Four boys of a fishing family named Bakr, all less than 12 years old, are killed on a beach by rockets from Israeli aircraft.

    As I write, after just over a week of this invasion, the death toll of Palestinians is climbing towards 1000. Most are civilians, many are children. Assaulting Gaza by land, air and sea, Israel has destroyed homes and reduced entire city blocks to rubble. It has attacked schools, mosques and hospitals. Tens of thousands of people have fled, although there is nowhere safe for them to go in this wretched strip of land just 40 kilometres long and about 10 kilometres wide. There are desperate shortages of food and water, of medical and surgical supplies.

    In an open letter to US President Barack Obama, Dr Mads Gilbert, a Norwegian surgeon working at Gaza’s al-Shifa hospital, writes of “the incomprehensible chaos of bodies, sizes, limbs, walking, not walking, breathing, not breathing, bleeding, not bleeding humans. Humans!

    “Ashy grey faces – Oh no! Not one more load of tens of maimed and bleeding. We still have lakes of blood on the floor in the emergency room, piles of dripping, blood-soaked bandages to clear out … the cleaners, everywhere, swiftly shovelling the blood and discarded tissues, hair, clothes, cannulas – the leftovers from death – all taken away… to be prepared again, to be repeated all over.”

    The onslaught is indiscriminate and unrelenting, with but one possible conclusion: Israel is not fighting the terrorists of Hamas. In defiance of the laws of war and the norms of civilised behaviour, it is waging its own war of terror on the entire Gaza population of about 1.7 million people. Call it genocide, call it ethnic cleansing: the aim is to kill Arabs.

    As none other than Malcolm Fraser tweeted this week: “If any other country went to war killing as many civilians, women and children, it would be named a war crime.” But it is not, although the UN is asking the question of both sides.

    Yes, Hamas is also trying to kill Israeli civilians, with a barrage of rockets and guerilla border attacks. It, too, is guilty of terror and grave war crimes. But Israeli citizens and their homes and towns have been effectively shielded by the nation’s Iron Dome defence system, and so far only three of its civilians have died in this latest conflict. The Israeli response has been out of all proportion, a monstrous distortion of the much-vaunted right of self defence.

    It is a breathtaking irony that these atrocities can be committed by a people with a proud liberal tradition of scholarship and culture, who hold the Warsaw Ghetto and the six million dead of the Holocaust at the centre of their race memory. But this is a new and brutal Israel dominated by the hardline, right-wing Likud Party of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his coalition. As one observer puts it: “All the seeds of the incitement of the past few years, all the nationalistic, racist legislation and the incendiary propaganda, the scare campaigns and the subversion of democracy by the right-wing camp – all these have borne fruit, and that fruit is rank and rotten. The nationalist right has now sunk to a new level, with almost the whole country following in its wake. The word ‘fascism’, which I try to use as little as possible, finally has its deserved place in the Israeli political discourse.”

    Fascism in Israel? At this point the Australian Likudniks, as Bob Carr calls them, will be lunging for their keyboards. There will be the customary torrent of abusive emails calling me a Nazi, an anti-Semite, a Holocaust denier, an ignoramus. As usual they will demand my resignation, my sacking. As it’s been before, some of this will be pornographic or threatening violence.

    In fact, that paragraph within the quotation marks was written by an Israeli. Gideon Levy is a columnist and editorial board member of the daily newspaper Ha’aretz. Born in Tel Aviv to parents who fled the Nazi occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1939, he despairs of what his country has become and the catastrophe its armed forces are visiting upon Gaza. After a recent column calling on Israeli pilots to stop bombing and rocketing civilians, his life was threatened and he now has a bodyguard day and night. It has come to that. In the worst insult of all, Levy is branded “a self-hating Jew”.

    Israeli propaganda is subtle and skillfully put. “If Israel were to lay down its arms tomorrow, she would be destroyed; but if Hamas were to lay down their arms, there would be peace,” goes the line, parroted endlessly.

    But in all these long and agonising decades, Israel has never offered the Palestinians a just and equitable peace. They would have only a splintered, vassal state, their polity and economy and even their borders and freedom of travel and trade managed and determined by Israel. The occupation of Palestinian lands would remain with the relentless expansion of illegal Israeli settlements on the West Bank of the Jordan and the Dead Sea.

    As the Palestine Liberation Organisation official Hanan Ashrawi put it this week in a television interview with the Australian journalist Hamish Macdonald: “No nation can accept being imprisoned, being besieged by land, by air, by sea and deprived of the most basic requirements of a decent life: freedom of movement, clean water. For seven years they have been under a brutal and lethal Israeli siege … You shell them and you bomb them; you destroy homes, you destroy whole neighbourhoods. You obliterate, annihilate, whole families, and then you come and say that this is self defence?”

    That is why the killing and the dying goes on. Ad nauseam, ad infinitum. And the rest of the world, not caring, looks away.

    http://www.smh.com.au/comment/israels-rank-and-rotten-fruit-is-being-called-fascism-20140724-zwd2t.html

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  80. G152 (341 comments) says:

    It would seem that any complaint we have about the HAMAS rockets landing in Israel should be sent to their New Zealand representative at Campbell Lame at TV3

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  81. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Dean Papa- One quick look at Wikipedia tells us that Mads Gilbert isn’t just “A Norwegian Surgeon”…
    He is a hardcore Communist/Political activist/Anti-Semite.
    So we can take anything he says with a grain of salt..

    Go You Good Thing Israel!!

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  82. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Dean Papa, Hanan Ashrawi would deny Israel any response to Palestinian attack until Palestine gets what it wants. She also apologised for the intifada violence that led to the wall being built

    All the PA needs for diplomatic success is for Palestinian leadership to be united in recognising Israel, and a non violence policy.

    Instead the PA includes Hamas when it refuses to recognise Israel, is firing rockets, smuggling weapons and using concrete to build tunnels while civilians are un-housed.

    The policy of keeping refuges in camps rather than allowing them to settle amongst other Palestinians is one that places a political agenda beofre the well being of their own kinfolk. It’s shameless, they are their own worst enemy. The total refusal to accept responsibility or consequences for their past and current actions – the choice to war on Israel, the refusal to accept the consequences and resort to terrorism etc.

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  83. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ flipper (3,544 comments) says:
    July 26th, 2014 at 12:36 pm

    I agree Flipper – but most in society do not think about the issues that you have outlined. People do not realise just how much 9/11 has impacted our living. It happened just as society was almost recovered from the Holocaust, and the A-Bombs, and the terrible loss of life by human action, during the WW’s. We had been lulled into thinking that nothing like that could happen again, and then it did, not to such a big extent, but in some way, in our safe little worlds it was more devastating, because it confirmed that things we had almost forgotten – that human beings are capable of great inhumanity.

    But back to Brownlee. People tend to be narcissistic, to varying degrees. Their worlds are invariably concerned with the self, and the self’s interests. They expect society to be made up in such a way that it allows the ‘self’ to at least be equal with others. I share your opinion that Brownlee’s misdemeanor was nothing – however, whenever people are told to ‘move along, nothing to see here’ – evidence shows they simply look harder. And those that look see someone that has got away with something that they wouldn’t get away with (or perceive they wouldn’t get away with it) so they talk about it more, and the other issues start coming up – GCSB etc.

    Initially I thought Key handled it the right way – now not so much. I think his lack of action may not reflect well – I now think he should have stood Gerry down until after the election, then done the ‘he’s learned his lesson’ and carried on as planned. The public would have been appeased, the opposition would have nothing to work on, and no one would feel the need to dig a little deeper and the public would have seen ‘justice’ and forget about it, maybe even feeling a little sorry for Gerry.

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  84. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    Warning: see description contained in source, read first and then decide if you would like to proceed

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/140709/these-are-the-photos-gaza-too-graphic-for-some-news-media-to-show

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  85. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    “Shawn
    Your argument above: ‘If people vote for and support terrorist groups, especially ones in favor of racial genocide, they are not innocent’ is exactly the one used to claim that those who died on 9/11 were not innocent victims because they had voted for American governments that had committed perceived crimes.”

    The difference mikey is that 911 was a terrorist attack that specifically targeted civilians. Israel is carrying out a legitimate military operation that specifically targets HAMAS.

    The difference should be obvious, even to a liberal.

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  86. Lucia Maria (2,428 comments) says:

    I think I must have missed the Hamas surrender in order to stop the bloodshed.

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  87. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    Worth reposting this from SPC as it is one of the more fact based and intelligent comments on the issue today.

    “All the PA needs for diplomatic success is for Palestinian leadership to be united in recognising Israel, and a non violence policy.

    Instead the PA includes Hamas when it refuses to recognise Israel, is firing rockets, smuggling weapons and using concrete to build tunnels while civilians are un-housed.

    The policy of keeping refuges in camps rather than allowing them to settle amongst other Palestinians is one that places a political agenda beofre the well being of their own kinfolk. It’s shameless, they are their own worst enemy. The total refusal to accept responsibility or consequences for their past and current actions – the choice to war on Israel, the refusal to accept the consequences and resort to terrorism etc.”

    Of course, the liberal-left, and anti-Israel hatemongers, do not care about any of this. In their tiny minds Israel is always wrong and there are always excuses for Palestinian terrorism.

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  88. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    “But in all these long and agonising decades, Israel has never offered the Palestinians a just and equitable peace”

    Not true. The Palestinians rejected 1967 borders in 2000 because Arafat would not give up right of return. The intifada followed, then came the wall and a hardening of Israeli attitudes as to a full return to 67 borders.

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  89. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, er I am liberal left. I vote Green etc. I just want a peaceful outcome and do not suffer those in the way of it.

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  90. kowtow (8,487 comments) says:

    The idea that young people’s lives are ruined by being criminalised for one joint is utter shite.

    If a cop nicked a youngster for dope he’d get ,depending on hs age a warning from Youth Aid. Nicked again, more youh aid.

    Older he’d get discretion.

    Our legal system is very fair to young offenders.

    How many chances does an idiot need before he ruins his own life?

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  91. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    You’ve missed the point, again, Shawn. You said the Palestinians could not be considered innocent victims because of the actions of Hamas. That is exactly the same as blaming the victims of any terrorist outrage.

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  92. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    These are the latest official statistics we have as per terrorism-info.org

    The distribution (not final, as of July 21, 2014) of the 674 Palestinians killed is as follows:

    1) 204 terrorist operatives:

    A) 118 Hamas operatives

    B) 59 PIJ operatives

    C) 27 operatives from other terrorist organizations

    2) 241 non-involved Palestinians

    3) 229 Palestinians whose identity is not yet known

    http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/index.aspx

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  93. Griff (7,727 comments) says:

    kow tow
    Kids are kicked out of school for one joint . Not even during school time in one case I know of
    No school not a good prognoses for the future.
    Happens frequently in many schools .
    Many lives are ruined in this country because of the punishment for not the result of a victimless crime kow tow.

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  94. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    “Kids are kicked out of school for one joint . Not even during school time in one case I know of”

    So they fucking should be- it’s a Criminal Offence!

    “No school not a good prognoses for the future.”

    If they are already getting baked on Cannabis at High School they haven’t got much of a future anyway- A life of sitting getting stoned at home and avoiding any work/social responsibility awaits…
    Has anybody heard from Philu lately? (The ‘Poster Boy’ for Decriminalisation!)

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  95. Paulus (2,627 comments) says:

    Another one of Saudi Arabia’s stirs.
    Currently they have a great responsibility in such as Western Ukraine, Crimea, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Paris is beginning to see serious racial problems.
    Even Putin cannot hold back the Saudi influence and money.
    The Saudi’s are holding back Chechnya who not only hate Russia but will turn on Putin’s Russia, when they are let loose.
    They were paid to hold back on the Sochi Winter Games as they threatened to cause a riot.
    Saudi has unlimited funds spread around the world.

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  96. Griff (7,727 comments) says:

    “Kids are kicked out of school for one joint . Not even during school time in one case I know of”

    So they fucking should be- it’s a Criminal Offense!

    pot bad
    why?
    because its illegal
    why is it illegal ?
    because its bad
    why is it bad ?
    because its illegal
    fucked in helmet thinking……..

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  97. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    Building up for the big games today folks!…. :)

    http://www.clubrugby.co.nz/wellington/games-results.php?competition=3&season=9&round=8

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  98. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    30 minutes to go! :)

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  99. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    HOBM should do it easy. Milkey and Pope Francis are both rooting for them! :)

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  100. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    I’d better head down to the Rec Johnboy.

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  101. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    Not long to go Milkey old chap. Just checking out where 1503 khz is on my old RCA valved set ! :)

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  102. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    bb should be on board soon! :)

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  103. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    The Ories team that beat Upper Hutt is the one playing HOBM today. They were best team faced by Upper Hutt, then MSP and then Wainui.

    So I would have the two away teams as favourites, with the game at Wainui the closer of the two.

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  104. kowtow (8,487 comments) says:

    grief

    Schools have a duty of care to the other students.Not all schools kick em out first time.Schools are run by elected boards.It will be the parents on the board who set the criteria. Obviously parents don’t want cannabis in their community. And rightly too.

    Kicked out of school ,is not criminalised. They must be sent to another school.It’s a right!The doper who gets a second chance at another school shouldn’t waste the chance he’s given.

    It’s called personal responsibility.

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  105. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    “You’ve missed the point, again, Shawn.”

    No mike, I have dealt with your point twice, you just keep shifting it slightly every time I do.

    ” You said the Palestinians could not be considered innocent victims because of the actions of Hamas.”

    No I didn’t. I said they were not innocent because most voted for and actively support HAMAS.

    “That is exactly the same as blaming the victims of any terrorist outrage.”

    NO it’s not, because the Gaza Arabs mostly do vote for and actively support HAMAS.

    Your being deliberately evasive about that as you are deliberately evasive about the reality of the terrorist threat to Israeli’s.

    This is your usual tactic. Soft soap the threat of terrorism to Israel, play down the widespread support for terrorism amongst Arabs, and lay all the blame at Israel’s door.

    So I have seen and understood your “point” for a long time now. I just think it’s evil, factually challenged bullshit.

    What life was like for Israelis when they followed Mike’s “do nothing and peace will break out” plan.

    “The Shmuel HaNavi bus bombing was the suicide bombing of a crowded public bus (Egged bus 2) in the Shmuel HaNavi quarter in Jerusalem, Israel, on August 19, 2003. Twenty-four people were killed and over 130 wounded. Many of the victims were children, some of them infants.[1] The Islamist militant group Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shmuel_HaNavi_bus_bombing

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  106. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    10 minutes to go SPC! :)

    I’m having a can of your sliced peaches for dessert tonight! :)

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  107. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Saying Palestinians are not ‘innocent’ because many of them support Hamas is exactly the same as the argument that the victims of 9/11 deserved it because of the actions of the government they elected.
    I have not soft-soaped any threat to Israel. I have condemned the disproportionate, ineffective and counter productive response.

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  108. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, mostly vote for Hamas? It was one time and with no chance to redress that. A bit like voting the Nazis out once they assumed dictatorship power. See the post by flipper earlier about what happens to the population under that sort of regime – they get set on a war course they can do nothing about.

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  109. stigie (1,197 comments) says:

    Did you bring in plenty of Gordons Johnboy just in case ?

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  110. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Johnboy, they are super politically correct as only liberal left pictures of (fruit sold around) the world can be.

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  111. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    I’m on the Grant’s at the mo stigie. They were giving away Mac’s ginger ale with it so as a jolly good Scotsman I could’ne resist it Lad! :)

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  112. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    “aying Palestinians are not ‘innocent’ because many of them support Hamas is exactly the same as the argument that the victims of 9/11 deserved it because of the actions of the government they elected.”

    No, it’s not. You can repeat that bit of propaganda as much as you like, it won’t be any more true.

    “I have not soft-soaped any threat to Israel.”

    Yes you have, just in the last few days you claimed Israeli’s were not in any real danger from HAMAS.

    “I have condemned the disproportionate, ineffective and counter productive response.”

    Who are you to say it’s disproportionate? Or ineffective and counter productive. Just because you repeat those claims from the safety of your armchair does not make them facts.

    Interesting that your more interested in condemning Israel for defending itself that you are in condemning terrorism.

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  113. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    GAME ON! :)

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  114. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    ShawnLH, he disagrees with me about expecting more of Israelis than the surrounding peoples, yet practices that himself. He should have agreed with me. You should too …

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  115. dirty harry (489 comments) says:

    troughing pigs…there is no end to it

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10312612/MPs-seeking-to-ramp-up-expenses

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  116. stigie (1,197 comments) says:

    Keep us posted JB.

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  117. Southern Raider (1,830 comments) says:

    Interesting articles being written about how the Arab world dislikes Israel, but hates Hamas and are for the most part sitting back and hoping Hamas is smashed once and for all.

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  118. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    Where were Minto, Penny, Sykes and the rest of the rent-a-mob when the Shmuel HaNavi bus bombing occurred?

    Did they protest? No.

    March in the streets? No.

    Call for justice for Israeli’s? No.

    Demand that we break off relations with the Arabs? No.

    Why?

    I’ll give you all a hint: One set of victims were Jews, the others were not.

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  119. Southern Raider (1,830 comments) says:

    The media is so stupid that one of the pictures they republished from Hamas showing a dead little boy was actually of a Jewish boy in Israel killed by a Palestinian militant several years ago. The key that set off the investigation into the photo was a mezuzah on the door post of the house

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  120. Don the Kiwi (1,757 comments) says:

    hnboy (14,924 comments) says:
    July 26th, 2014 at 1:54 pm
    Building up for the big games today folks!…. :)

    http://www.clubrugby.co.nz/wellington/games-results.php?competition=3&season=9&round=8

    Not many white boys’ names in those lineups, JB :-)

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  121. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    14/nil HOBM/Ories ( sorry bb! :) )

    3/nil Wainui/MSP

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  122. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Johnboy, just checked the teamlists, no Ardie Savea for Ories and MSP missing a key loosie as well.

    Ories can be taken up front (Tawa has done it in recent years) and the HOBM pack is a big one – the most imposing one they have played this season. Ories might regret not paying Mama and Juliet, they might not get many chances in the open play.

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  123. wat dabney (3,769 comments) says:

    Other Andy is all in favour of collective punishment for the sins of the few. The Ward Churchill argument.

    I think you mean the David Cunliffe argument.

    He did, after all, apologise for being a man. The implication being that men are collectively guilty of abusing and raping women.

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  124. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    Not a lot of Latin names in the Gladiatorial contests at the Colosseum either Don! :)

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  125. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    26/nil HOBM/ORIES (sorry bb! :) )

    6/3 Wainui/MSP

    :)

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  126. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    So Ories are the best team played by Upper Hutt at the Polo Ground this year and the worst to play at the Hutt Rec as well.

    The AB’s had better not use Mama and Juliet as water boys, they suck at it.

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  127. Southern Raider (1,830 comments) says:

    Anyone else see the outtake of Mike McRoberts getting ready for a 3News report from Israel?

    He spots a Hamas rocket coming towards him that then gets exploded by the Iron Dome and absolutely shits himself.

    Why didn’t they show this on 3News. Mike doesn’t like one rocket coming near to him but is fine with one every 10 mins going into Israel while he laments what is happening in Gaza

    Two faced fuckwit

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  128. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    Halftime.

    31/nil HOBM/Ories….sorry again bb! :)

    13/10 Wainui/MSP

    :)

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  129. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    Try to Ories under the posts bb. 30min to go!

    31/7

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  130. stigie (1,197 comments) says:

    Where is BB, where is Judith…something is a bit suspect JB ?

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  131. OneTrack (3,107 comments) says:

    SPC – “ShawnLH, er I am liberal left. I vote Green etc. I just want a peaceful outcome and do not suffer those in the way of it.”

    Peaceful outcome steps:

    1. Hamas stops firing rockets into Israel.
    2. Job done.

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  132. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    She’ll be back stigie. She cant resist my earthy charm! :)

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  133. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    36/7 HOBM/Ories…. Sad stuff bb! :)

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  134. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    38/7 now! :)

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  135. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    16/13 Wainui/MSP :)

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  136. Lance (2,655 comments) says:

    You think Israel is being harsh on the Palestinians?

    You do realise the Jordanians lost their temper with them a long time ago (1970) and the slaughter was so bad it was called “Black September”. With a fraction of the provocation Israel is enduring now.
    The interesting part was the Jordanian king became deeply pissed off with them because he was trying hard to broker a peace deal with Israel and all the PLO wanted to do was kill, fight and blow shit up in Israel. When he tried intervening they made several attempts to assassinate him… stupid move.

    Not much changed

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  137. Rowan (2,396 comments) says:

    Hopefully the Crusaders can deal to those dirty cheating japies tonight and get revenge for the dud performance a couple of months ago against the sharks.

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  138. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    So having picked the city teams to win it’s going to be an all valley final at Hutt Rec.

    So go Crusaders and Waratahs, let the Sharks dine on Brumbies …

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  139. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    Hey Lance steady on there. If all the Arabs had united against the Jews they’d have been liquidated many years ago.

    Much like if all the Murri had fronted up against Governor Grey we’d all be conversant in Te Reo! :)

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  140. stigie (1,197 comments) says:

    One can only imagine what BB is going through JB

    No doubt getting hammered as we speak !~

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  141. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    Fortunately most of Te Murri decided to slaughter the Iwi next door! :)

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  142. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    38/19 HOBM/ORIES

    23/13 WAINUI/MSP

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  143. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Mrs Nui is back (also known as minus).

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  144. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    43/19 HOBM/ORIES ! :)

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  145. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    I see the usual rent-a-mob is protesting again.
    Mana, Unite, the Greens with the crazy race baiter Delahunty in the front.
    This time Hamas supporters are joining them.
    And like their brethren in Gaza, they don’t mind using children for political gain.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11299641

    And yes, the Mana flags are out.
    The fat German who dresses up in a Whermacht uniform and has a signed copy of Mein Kampf is funding the party that calls for the Jews to stop defending themselves.
    Must be a coincidence…..

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  146. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    Cyanide or a gunshot to the mouth bb? :)

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  147. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Bastard Catholics!

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  148. Nostradamus (3,326 comments) says:

    MPs seeking to ramp up expenses

    Would you struggle to find a hotel room in Auckland or Christchurch for under $210 a night? Spare a thought for MPs who believe a $30 boost to their taxpayer-funded accommodation just won’t cover it.

    The hard-done-by politicians are also asking for 30 free flights a year for their spouses, partners or children – on top of their at-least $150,000-a-year salaries.

    A review of expenses by the Remuneration Authority, which sets MPs’ pay, is proposing the amount they are allowed to claim for hotel rooms while in Auckland and Christchurch on business be increased from $180 to $210. Outside of those cities it would rise from $160 to $190 a night.

    MPs say the hike isn’t enough because it now doesn’t include breakfast, internet access or parking. But party whips wanted to keep their views under wraps, refusing to release a submission to the authority or confirm details.

    Troughers!

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  149. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    It’s Fucking hard to defeat a team that has Pope Francis rooting for them bb! :)

    43/26 is an honourable outcome!! :)

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  150. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    It took the Germans till late in extra time to put away the Pope’s Argentina.

    But at 31-0 at half time – Ories were more like Brazil in the semi-final than Argentina in the final.

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  151. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    It’s Wainui and Hutt pseudo Catholics into the Jubilee Cup final!!!! :)

    Hallelujah Lord! :)

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  152. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Jb, I’ll pick HOBM to win. Just to balance out their home advantage.

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  153. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    Afternoon Minus. What a sad little prick you are! :)

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  154. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    They probably will SPC ….but I’d never admit that to that bloody Milkey chap! :)

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  155. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    I thought minus was your Mrs?

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  156. kowtow (8,487 comments) says:

    Rent a mob!

    ISIS over run east Syria and north Iraq. Engage in genocide against Christians, call for mass female genital mutilation, behead their enemies,blow up Shia shrines.

    Boycott Israel!

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  157. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    Susan Devoy will soon be issuing guidelines on ways sensible folks will be able to boycott Israeli stuff! :)

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  158. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    Next week Wendyl Nissen will publish practical ways that consumers will be able to single out Kosher stuff and delete it from their diet.

    The following week she and Susan will publish a list of Halal pork sausage suppliers! :)

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  159. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    Looking forward to next Saturday already, Johnboy?

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  160. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Johnboy

    I suppose the only up side of todays devastating loss is that it saves me a trip to Wellington.

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  161. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    Follow me here Mike:…..”Hail Mary full of grace…..etc…etc..! :)

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  162. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    I’m expecting Judith to pop down in her shitter 270kw thing bb. Perhaps you could hitch a lift?

    I’d be happy to let you go sloppy seconds! :)

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  163. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Goodness me!, it’s not often that a bloke receives an offer like that Johnboy.

    I promise to take it into serious consideration.

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  164. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    “ISIS over run east Syria and north Iraq. Engage in genocide against Christians, call for mass female genital mutilation, behead their enemies,blow up Shia shrines.

    Boycott Israel!”

    Yup, says it all really. But that’s the far left for you. Whether it’s crime, war or terrorism, the Left’s response is always to blame the victim and excuse the perpetrators.

    It’s what happens when you ditch morality in favor of post-modern identity politics.

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  165. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    Israel has found out from questioning captives just what those tunnels under Gaza were going to be used for, and it is chilling.

    Israeli Security sources say that Hamas had a plan to attack kibbutzim near the Hamas tunnel exits this coming Rosh HaShanah, with an invasion force of over 200 terrorists and an objective to kill or kidnap as many Israelis as possible.

    The information comes from captured prisoners who have constructed this most horrifying picture. Security sources say that Hamas’ plan was “lowering the State of Israel to its knees.” Prime Minster Netanyahu was reported by Israeli newspaper Maariv, as saying the goal was to use dozens of Hamas tunnels simultaneously. Tunnels have been found and dug under many kibbutzim that surround Gaza. One tunnel was even found to have its exit right next to the entrance to the dining hall of a Kibbutz.

    Maariv’s sources in Israeli security confirmed Hamas had a plan to attack kibbutzim near the tunnel exits this coming Rosh Hashanah with an invasion force of over 200 terrorists. The plan was to launch the 200 terrorists at once, through dozens of tunnels, across six towns in the western Negev. In most cases the tunnel exited into the hearts of those Israeli communities. The coordinated attack would occupy the whole area and kill and/or kidnap as many Israeli civilians as possible, depending on circumstances. Abducted Israelis would be transferred via the tunnels to the Gaza Strip.

    http://www.truthrevolt.org/israel-revolt/breaking-israeli-security-reports-hamas-tunnels-were-be-used-massive-rosh-hashanah

    The offensive attack tunnels seem to quite literally have been built for this kind of purpose. The IDF recently published a map of how they were dug to spill out on both sides of nearby communities (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtYjL4mCAAAI6c6.png). Israeli soldiers have been reporting that just inside some of the tunnels were storage units filled with tranquilizers, handcuffs, ropes, and so on.

    http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/07/hamass-big-plan-disrupted.php

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  166. twofish (94 comments) says:

    Boycott Israel
    Apparently includes Nestlé, Starbucks, McDonalds and Coca Cola. Shalom and do it.

    And good luck with that :-)

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  167. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Off to see the Mighty Crusaders maul on some Shark meat. I expect a very upfront battle in the engine room. Who wins that battle will determine the out come of the game. I expect to see a hard fought game and the full time score will determine who moves into final. Go the Crusaders go.

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  168. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    ‘the full time score will determine who moves into final’
    You don’t get sporting comments much more profound than that

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  169. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Dad4Justice will be in the Crusader’s box no doubt- being close personal friends with most of the team…

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  170. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    Dime would love to see the dirty Cantabs win tonight.

    Right now Blackadder will be mumbling something to the team. Inspiring stuff.

    If the Cantabs lose, get ready for the barrage of articles about how strong the wallabies will be this year… Have the abs peaked too early? Downward spiral before the rwc blah blah

    The fact is, super rugby doesn’t count. The all blacks don’t play super rugby. They play a game beyond that of any super rugby team. They are the sum of five teams after all.

    When the all blacks go to another gear like they did in the third game against England, holy shit.

    Certainly not unbeatable but super rugby results will have fuck all bearing on our year.

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  171. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Longknives

    Who are the Sheep shaggers playing?

    I only ask because I want to know the name of the team I am supporting. I have my very own ABC club, mine is not “anybody but Cuntliffe” it is “anybody but Canterbury”

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  172. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    “‘the full time score will determine who moves into final”

    Outstanding!

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  173. Johnboy (16,597 comments) says:

    After I’ve scored Judith first the rest of you can fight over who’s final! :)

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  174. UrbanNeocolonialist (288 comments) says:

    To those complaining about MP’s family travel:

    I knew a constituency MP a couple of terms back. While Parliament is in session they are in Wellington 4-5 days a week with long hours and then on those weekends that they travel back to their homes they typically are in attendance at local functions and events for the majority of their time. If they are lucky they might get to spend a half day to a day with their children every week.

    Other weekends they have to travel to other parts of the country or occasionally even overseas for various political and national events, again preventing them from seeing their families. Their spouses are in effect solo parents, and it is very tough on them, particularly those with younger kids, and is made even worse if the partner is also working (everyone needs to maintain their working skills for security these days, particularly when you have a partner in an uncertain career like politics).

    What that family travel ‘perk’ would allow is for those MP’s to see their families a bit more often. It can easily cost 1-2 thousand to do a return trip with several kids from a provincial constituency like Invercargill, Kaitia or East Cape which is pretty unsustainable even with an MP’s income. It would not be a bad thing to take a bit of pressure off constituency MP’s by making their families suffer less, they already have to sacrifice a lot, and unlike many professionals they don’t have any choice about where their families live (and we do want constituency MP’s rather than dissociated beltway list MP’s).

    I would stipulate that it may only be used to bring families to where their MP parent is – not to be used for ski trips or visiting other relatives.

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  175. Nostradamus (3,326 comments) says:

    This one goes out to Big Bruv – Give Waitara an ‘h’:

    A woman keen for the ‘h’ to be included in the spelling of Waitara wants more people to know the history behind the town’s name.

    Tiri Bailey said she believed Waitara should actually be spelt Whaitara based on the accepted story of how the town came to be.

    On Thursday, as part of celebrations for Maori Language Week, Bailey told a small group at Waitara Library that the inspiration for the town’s name was based on a story of reconciliation between a son, Whare Matangi, and his father, Ngarue.

    Bailey said Whare Matangi is said to have followed the path of a dart he threw in order to find his father, who was living in what is now known as Waitara.

    She said the longer form of the town’s original name is Ko Whai-tara-nui-a-Whare-Matangi-ki-te-kimi-tana-matua-a-Ngarue but was shortened to Whai-tara.

    Just imagine “Ko Whai-tara-nui-a-Whare-Matangi-ki-te-kimi-tana-matua-a-Ngarue” on a sign!

    And thank goodness the dart didn’t end up in the Cook Strait!

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  176. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    UrbanNeocolonialist

    I’m sorry, your tear jerking argument as to why our pollies falls at the first hurdle.

    They all know the score when they decide they want to be in the house. Stuff them, for most it is far more than they could ever earn in the real world.

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  177. Southern Raider (1,830 comments) says:

    How many of the protesters down Queen Street today are at least second generation NZers. Bugger all I would suggest.

    They have no right to speak on behalf of NZ and give the world the impression NZ doesn’t support Israel.

    The Scottish prick from Unite is a classic example. Don’t like it here, what we do and who we support then fuck off home

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  178. UrbanNeocolonialist (288 comments) says:

    Big bruv: because the people you really want to be MP’s are those without kids and those who can’t earn $150k doing other things. Your ideal = childless lefties, are you a crypto-labourite? :)

    I personally think that what we really want are talented managers, business people and some professionals. They are mostly already taking a pay cut if they become MP’s

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  179. lurcher1948 (151 comments) says:

    I see the Auckland rag head protest against ISRAEL wants me to boycott HP computers.Sorry assorted raghead muslims i love my HP core I7 laptop more than i like any raghead muslim,they seem to breed like rabbits and die like rabbits facing the IDF,Darwins law of surival

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  180. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    “‘the full time score will determine who moves into final’”

    Made sense to me. He didn’t mention it was a semi final anywhere else.

    I have seen “the winner moves into the final” many times.

    It’s not like he said the full time score determines who wins the game.

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  181. Nostradamus (3,326 comments) says:

    Ironic headline:

    ‘Dirty’ city makes councillor sick

    We’re talking about Dunedin city councillor David Benson-PeepPope!

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  182. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    i love my HP core I7 laptop more than i like any raghead muslim – lmao

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  183. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Urban

    I just looked again at my reply, for some reason half of the first paragraph has disappeared.

    My point being that only the dumbest would not know what was in store for them if they do win a seat, they know the demands and they know the rewards. If they are not happy with that package then don’t apply for the job.

    The ideal people are indeed the talented business people and managers. We don’t need those who see a seat in the house as the highest paid job they will ever have.

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  184. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Southern Raider

    If you are talking about Joe Carolyn I have to tell you that he is not Scottish, he is Irish.

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  185. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    How many of the protesters down Queen Street today are at least second generation NZers. Bugger all I would suggest.

    They interviewed one of them on Prime News, a young guy, and he thought he was back in the 1960s – seriously!
    He had some kind of fur jacket on, a red beret, John Lennon sunglasses – he was dressed like a 1960s hippy. All he needed was a tie-dye t-shirt.
    I guess if you weren’t old enough to be there the first time, you can play act and pretend.

    Yeh, nah…

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  186. kowtow (8,487 comments) says:

    Auckland anti semitic march.

    One placard shown on TVNZ1 news said ‘Make Israel History”.

    So the marchers and organisers are happy to be associated with the genocide that was instrumental in the creation of Israel!

    Some of the chants at similar protests in Germany of all places are particularly frightening.Multiculturalism has replaced the old evil there.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/10983472/EU-politicians-speak-out-after-wave-of-anti-Semitic-attacks.html

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  187. Harriet (4,972 comments) says:

    Bruv. Thanks for the support over at the Standard the other day. Fuck arn’t that lot weird – Jew haters.

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  188. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Harriet

    Thanks. Although for the life of me I cannot remember what it was all about….lol

    I quite enjoy popping over there from time to time. I find it an interesting exercise in as much as you really have to think about how you word what you have to say so it does not break their moderating rules (which are subject to change without notice) and still maintain a healthy dose of “wind up”.

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  189. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Kowtow- Chants of “Allahu Akbar” and the Swastikas fluttering in the wind showed the Protester’s true colours…

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  190. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    “The Israeli ambassador to Germany compared the recent attacks to the plight of Jews in Nazi Germany in the 1930s.”

    See if you can think of anything to compare with this, Mr Hadas-Handelsman ..

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/140709/these-are-the-photos-gaza-too-graphic-for-some-news-media-to-show

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  191. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Nostradamus- Dunedin is a pretty rotten old dump..
    I puked on the Street plenty of times when I was at Varsity there (many moons ago)

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  192. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/d7h0ndwo99yqsah/South%20Auckland.jpg

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  193. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    nasska

    That is outstanding.

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  194. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

    When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. “Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay,” he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.

    But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas’s handiwork after all.

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  195. minus (197 comments) says:

    Labour leader David Cunliffe has launched his party’s West Auckland campaign

    Cunliffe said starting out as underdogs was a great place as “it’s all up from there, we have the power of surprise”.

    Apparently so far it has all been to a devious plan – to fool and then amaze and astonish us

    “When that blue water comes about, it always washes out against the red rocks of the Waitakeres and always piddles out again,” he said.

    No one had the slightest fucking idea what he was talking about.
    We assume he has near finished the bottle of wine gifted to him in Queenstown.

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  196. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Sheesh- Not even my fighting talk at 7:52 has drawn Pete George out!
    I’m worried about ‘Pistol Pete’! What else would he be doing on a Saturday night?

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  197. Nostradamus (3,326 comments) says:

    Longknives:

    I was thinking exactly the same thing!

    Should we send out a search party for the Beige Badger?

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  198. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    “But there is a political liability which I think is something that we fail to look at because too often there is so much blowback from our intervention in areas that we shouldn’t be involved in. You know, Hamas, if you look at the history, you will find that Hamas was encouraged and actually started by Israel because they wanted Hamas to counteract Yasir Arafat.” ~ Ron Paul

    http://www.thedailysheeple.com/ron-paul-history-lesson-flashback-israel-created-hamas_072014

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  199. Colville (2,268 comments) says:

    PG could be at the game in ChCh?

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  200. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ds1tit2kdm3zy5f/Badger%203.jpg

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  201. nasska (11,525 comments) says:

    Minus

    It could be that his speech writer is a Trevor Mallard plant.

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  202. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    kowtow, in France they even burned down shops owned by Jews and attacked a Synagogue.

    On Sunday several hundred pro-Palestinian protestors gathered in front of the local railway station. Late in the afternoon, clashes erupted in front of the local synagogue between police and protestors carrying iron bars and wooden batons. In the chaos that ensued, fire broke out at the synagogue but was rapidly brought under control.

    Several shops were attacked and set on fire, including a Jewish-owned grocery store that was reportedly destroyed.

    http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-france-rioters-synagogue-20140721-story.html

    And in Germany –

    In a video taken at a large anti-Israel rally in Berlin this past Thursday, hundreds of protesters can be seen chanting in German, “Jew, Jew, cowardly pig, come on out and fight on your own” (“Jude, Jude, feiges Schwein, komm heraus und kämpf allein“).

    It reminds one of the beginnings of WWII.
    Do people learn nothing from history?

    As others have said, Israel is the “canary in the coalmine”. First they come for Israel, then they come for the West.

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  203. Yoza (1,875 comments) says:

    kowtow (7,599 comments) says:
    July 26th, 2014 at 7:36 pm

    Auckland anti semitic march.

    One placard shown on TVNZ1 news said ‘Make Israel History”.

    So the marchers and organisers are happy to be associated with the genocide that was instrumental in the creation of Israel!

    Some of the chants at similar protests in Germany of all places are particularly frightening.Multiculturalism has replaced the old evil there.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/10983472/EU-politicians-speak-out-after-wave-of-anti-Semitic-attacks.html

    Looks like an Israeli government PR campaign to provide a smokescreen for their campaign of mass-murder in Gaza.

    Anyone familiar with the conflict understands their are many Jewish groups and individuals who are utterly appalled by the Israeli state’s treatment of Palestinians, they are also familiar with the Israeli state desperation to conflate the slaughter of Palestinians with upholding the interests of Jews generally.

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  204. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    “Looks like an Israeli government PR campaign to provide a smokescreen for their campaign of mass-murder in Gaza.”

    No, it looks like a rare but welcome revelation of how many Jew haters there are on the far left.

    “Anyone familiar with the conflict”

    Which excludes you and most other lefties.

    “their are many Jewish groups and individuals who are utterly appalled by the Israeli state’s treatment of Palestinians”

    Sadly Israel has lefties who like terrorists as well.

    “they are also familiar with the Israeli state desperation to conflate the slaughter of Palestinians with upholding the interests of Jews generally.”

    That is because the war against HAMAS is directly related to the long term survival of Jews everywhere.

    What is telling “Yowza” is how easily you dismiss the very disturbing facts presented by Fletch. That rabid antisemitism has been on the rise for twenty years now is a fact, and far from being Israel’s fault, it is in large part the fault of the Western far left, which has made Jew hatred politically correct.

    Perhaps next time you pop up I should greet you with Sieg Hail?

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  205. Fletch (6,390 comments) says:

    Looks like an Israeli government PR campaign to provide a smokescreen for their campaign of mass-murder in Gaza.

    Oh, come on Yoza. Do you really think the aim of the Jews is that bad, that (in your eyes) they’ve only intentionally killed around 700? What we’re seeing isn’t “mass-murder”. Come on… If the Jews wanted to, they could completely flatten Gaza.

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  206. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    “If the Jews wanted to, they could completely flatten Gaza.”

    Something I am starting to think might be a good idea.

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  207. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Fletch says:

    “kowtow, in France they even burned down shops owned by Jews and attacked a Synagogue.”

    This is been happening all over Europe for the last 30 years.
    The new colonists, protected by the left, have driven out most Jews from Europe.
    They’ve left for the US or Israel.
    Once in Israel they’re not taking any shit anymore, where else do they go?

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  208. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    The Socialist Roots of Modern Anti-Semitism.

    “Auschwitz meant that six million Jews were killed, and thrown on the waste-heap of Europe, for what they were considered: money-Jews. Finance capital and the banks, the hard core of the system of imperialism and capitalism, had turned the hatred of men against money and exploitation, and against the Jews. . . . Antisemitism is really a hatred of capitalism.” —Ulrike Meinhof, left-wing German terrorist of the 1970s.

    http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-socialist-roots-of-modern-anti-semitism

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  209. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Shawn is it possible to cwiticise Iswael without being, in your hallucination, “anti-Semitic?” Or not really?

    Tell me, have you seen this bit?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPGb4STRfKw

    Remind you of anyone?

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  210. Nostradamus (3,326 comments) says:

    More academic psycho-babble, this time from Sue Bradford, who has been busy writing a PhD thesis.

    Sue’s message: let’s have left-wing think tanks in New Zealand!

    She defines “Left” as follows:

    Left: a commitment to working for a world based on values of fairness, inclusion, participatory democracy, solidarity and equality, and to transforming Aotearoa into a society grounded in economic, social, environmental and Tiriti justice.

    Yikes!

    Just imagine what her definition of “Right” would look like!

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  211. wat dabney (3,769 comments) says:

    Yoza,

    Looks like an Israeli government PR campaign to provide a smokescreen for their campaign of mass-murder in Gaza.

    So John Minto is actually working for the Israeli government.

    Fiendishly clever. But that’s Jews for you, am I right Yoza?

    Any more such insights?

    Please. Don’t keep them to yourself.

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  212. cricko (330 comments) says:

    Hi Reid.

    Now it is wrong to judge a person by their opinion on just one subject, and I may have been guilty of that in
    your case on this subject.
    Usually you do offer thoughtfull reasons.

    So, without qualifying reasons, and as a starting point whereby we may reach common ground .
    Could you please answer.

    Does Israel have a right to exist ?

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  213. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    Hi Reid,

    Reprinting this for you. Hat Tip: Asher the Anarchist

    http://kyriarchy.tumblr.com/post/91909762972/how-to-criticize-israel-without-being-anti-semitic

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  214. cricko (330 comments) says:

    If Reid is incapable/ unable to answer,

    Is there anyone game to engage,

    “Does Israel have the right to exist ?”

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  215. RF (1,399 comments) says:

    Johnboy… I am concerned you have between 2 & 4 stalkers that persist in giving you down ticks. I have been running defence for you with up ticks but getting over run by the minus brigade. What the hell did you do.. Get someone’s ewe pregnant ?

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  216. cricko (330 comments) says:

    Oh well, I did try.

    Waited 15 mins, now am driven back to the footy.

    However this wont go away Reid.

    You are going to have to declare one day.

    In the meantime, while you consider your position, good luck to you and good luck to your family.

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  217. lilman (959 comments) says:

    lol,call sodomy what you like,if its forced on you its wrong ,bitches!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  218. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Thank you Crusaders. Now we need the Brumbies to beat the Waratahs.

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  219. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Back after watching a great movie: Berlin Job. Highly recommend it.

    Yes, of course Israel has a right to exist.

    Provided of course she obeys God.

    Otherwise, according to the Bible, she doesn’t. (That’s not me saying that, that’s God, in Deuteronomy)

    As we all know, Jesus and his apostles had great troubles with Jews who kept wanting to kill them.

    I guess the question really is, has anything changed in terms of Israel being obedient to God since those days, or not?

    And possibly Fox News doesn’t have a whole lot to add to that question, if we’re really serious about what the correct answer might be.

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  220. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    Reid,

    “Shawn is it possible to cwiticise Iswael without being, in your hallucination, “anti-Semitic?” Or not really?”

    You do realise that replacing R’s with W’s makes you look like a dickhead, right?

    “Yes, of course Israel has a right to exist.

    Provided of course she obeys God.”

    That is up to God to determine, not you. And it applies to Muslims, who clearly don’t obey God when they engage in terrorism.

    “I guess the question really is, has anything changed in terms of Israel being obedient to God since those days, or not?”

    Israel’s existence does not depend on your comic book pseudo-theology.

    No, the real question is Reid, why don’t YOU obey God? Because with your rhetoric on Israel and the Jews it’s pretty clear to me that you’re spitting on Christ and His Word and following demons.

    Good luck with that.

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  221. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    That is up to God to determine, not you.

    Yes BUT GOD HAS GIVEN THE INSTRUCTIONS IN DEUTERONOMY. WHAT ABOUT THAT DOESN’T A BIBLICAL SCHOLAR LIKE YOU UNDERSTAND?

    You’ll of course be aware of the conditional nature of those instructions: i.e. unless Israel was obedient to God, the deal was off and He would bring forces of destruction upon them.

    So why don’t YOU obey God?

    Good luck with that, my brother.

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  222. Reid (16,471 comments) says:

    No doubt Shawn is furiously googling refutations to the clear and unequivocal conditions laid out by God.

    I’m off to bed.

    Whatever he comes back with, if you want the truth, first in your heart ask God prayerfully and truthfully to give you wisdom and insight, then read the Bible.

    All other sources, including me, are suspect by comparison.

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  223. Dean Papa (784 comments) says:

    Have those peace loving Israelis fessed up to this yet?

    http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/worldservice/witness/witness_20130722-0855a.mp3

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  224. Yoza (1,875 comments) says:

    TimG_Oz (917 comments) says:
    July 26th, 2014 at 9:58 pm

    Hi Reid,

    Reprinting this for you. Hat Tip: Asher the Anarchist

    That list of things people are not allowed has some questionable advice.

    For example

    Don’t claim that Jews are ethnically European. Jews come in many colors—white is only one. Besides, the fact that many of us have some genetic mixing with the peoples who tried to force us to assimilate (be they German, Indian, Ethiopian, Italian…) doesn’t change the fact that all our common ancestral roots go back to Israel.

    Shlomo Sand, Professor of History at Tel Aviv University, obviously missed that particular memo when writing The Invention of the Jewish People.
    Leon T. Hadar reviews:

    “Countering official Zionist historiography, Sand questions whether the Jewish People ever existed as a national group with a common origin in the Land of Israel/Palestine. He concludes that the Jews should be seen as a religious community comprising a mishmash of individuals and groups that had converted to the ancient monotheistic religion but do not have any historical right to establish an independent Jewish state in the Holy Land. In short, the Jewish People, according to Sand, are not really a “people” in the sense of having a common ethnic origin and national heritage. They certainly do not have a political claim over the territory that today constitutes Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, including Jerusalem.”

    And this?

    Don’t use the Holocaust/Nazism/Hitler as a rhetorical prop. The Jews who were murdered didn’t set foot in what was then Palestine, let alone take part in Israeli politics or policies. It is wrong and appropriative to try to use their deaths to score political points. Genocide, racism, occupation, murder, extermination—go ahead and use those terms, but leave the Holocaust out of it.

    Perhaps Noam Chomsky needs to be made aware of this list of no-nos
    Noam Chomsky: “It is a poor tribute to the memories of the victims of the Holocaust to adopt the central doctrine of their murderers.”

    Oh really?

    Don’t say that since Palestinians are Semites, Jews/Israelis are anti-Semitic, too. You do not get to redefine the oppressions of others, nor do you get to police how they refer to that oppression. This also often ties into #8. Don’t do it. Anti-Semitism has exclusively meant anti-Jewish bigotry for a good century plus now. Coin your own word for anti-Palestinian oppression, or just call it what it is: racism mixed with Islamophobia.

    This is one of the dodgier arguments. Too often any critic of Israel is tagged as an anti-Semite, it seems to infuriate those who conflate the two issues when it is pointed out to them that the Palestinians are also a Semitic people and their treatment at the hands of the Israelis could also be described as a form of anti-Semitism. It seem more than a little arrogant to claim only Jews can suffer from anti-Semitic actions or intentions.

    The list does make many valid points, but I would not hold it up as a hard and fast example of what people should or shouldn’t do when criticising Israel. I find using common sense and adhering to common human decency the best course.

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  225. ShawnLH (5,124 comments) says:

    “You’ll of course be aware of the conditional nature of those instructions: i.e. unless Israel was obedient to God, the deal was off and He would bring forces of destruction upon them.”

    Wrong. If you look at the entire content of the Bible God only says that He will discipline His people, but that the Covenant promises are eternal.

    “No doubt Shawn is furiously googling refutations to the clear and unequivocal conditions laid out by God.”

    No, Googling theology is what you do. I have studied theology at both secular and Anglican institutions. That is the difference Reid, your “theology” is just bs you get off the net, and you do so selectively to justify your Neo-Nazi crap.

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  226. Manolo (13,780 comments) says:

    Another useless and shameless trougher is bought up by the German fraudster:
    http://news.msn.co.nz/nationalnews/8881187/georgina-beyer-to-run-for-mana-party

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