Slippery on education

July 10th, 2014 at 3:00 pm by David Farrar

On The Nation:

In principle, do you like super teachers as an idea, good teachers getting paid more?

In principle I agree that having excellent teachers is really important but it’s not the only thing we have to do and you’ll find out more tomorrow.

In principle, do you agree with them being paid more though?

In principal I agree with great teachers and great schools. And you’ll find out more tomorrow.

Because will there be a choice here between having an iPad and no donations or having your good teachers paid more?

No, we can do both.

Will parents face a choice?

No, they won’t.

That was on Saturday. And then on Sunday they announced they will not pay good teachers more, as they will use the money elsewhere. So Cunliffe’s answer on Saturday was very misleading. He should have said “Yes, they will face a choice, but we think our priorities are better” – but he gave the very misleading impression that they will fund both.

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34 Responses to “Slippery on education”

  1. Yoza (1,647 comments) says:

    Isn’t ‘Slippery’ one of John Key’s nicknames?

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  2. m@tt (601 comments) says:

    I think you meant to use the tricky Cunliffe meme. Slippery is definitely the Key meme.
    To the rest of us they are just being typical politicians.

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  3. Unity (366 comments) says:

    No, it’s Shonkey!!

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  4. Nookin (3,142 comments) says:

    “Isn’t ‘Slippery’ one of John Key’s nicknames?”

    Indeed it is. It’s a nick-named bestowed by the likes of Cunliffe who, as we have just seen, is as easy to tie down as a greasy pig. That is why only a very small number of people really believe him and regard his name calling as tripe. The vast majority think Key is one of the better Prime Ministers we have ever had.

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  5. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    I notice those critical of JK always post when those that count are working. The dole must be paying too much! Obviously the losers are saturating sites with their evil and foul Labour/Green doctrine . . . but it won’t succeed losers!

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  6. Unity (366 comments) says:

    Which I find very puzzling, Nookin, given that this country now practices apartheid and it has accelerated dramatically under his watch. Special privilege based on race is apartheid, so, like it or not, we have it. Where are the 1981 protestors now? This country will never be great until we are all treated the same under the law.

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  7. RightNow (6,780 comments) says:

    They’re going to give schools $100 per kid per year, in order that parents won’t have to make ‘donations’.
    Then they’re going to ask the parents pay about $150 per year to finance some sort of mobile computing device.
    Will that be compulsory, or a ‘donation’?

    They’re going to employ an extra 2000 teachers to get smaller class sizes. Are there 2000 spare classrooms available?

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  8. Unity (366 comments) says:

    Or it could mean that the posters have been around a bit longer than some so can see the damage done to our country more clearly, igm. I listen more closely to those with long experience than those not long out of school/university or are in the early years of work.

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  9. ShawnLH (4,319 comments) says:

    ” Special privilege based on race is apartheid”

    No it’s not.

    Apartheid was a form of forced racial separatism, in which one side was denied basic rights.

    That is not what NZ has.

    Maori do not have “special privileges” in NZ.

    What we have is a partnership based on a mutually agreed contract.

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  10. Bill Courtney (152 comments) says:

    DPF: “on Sunday they announced they will not pay good teachers more”

    Wrong. On Sunday they said they would scrap the IES Initiative. That’s all. That does not say that good teachers are not important and that we can’t have both.

    As for slippery National, the last time they played the Quantity v Quality argument was in the 2012 Budget. If we parents had not stood up and fought that off, then today class sizes would have been bigger and we would have had what two initiatives in their place? How many National fans on here can even remember what those two were? And, when it came time to resurrect the argument again, in January this year, why were they nowhere to be seen??

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  11. MH (668 comments) says:

    As in the heir no 2 presumptive. Apartheid allowed or intended races to be independant of each other with self rule. IN SA there was no shortage of black Africans wanting to come into the country when one would assume there’d be wanting to leave. That’s what crippled the policy. Japan and India and Fiji to name a few have similar apartheid policies and if women’s suffrage is to be included then that’s 96.5% of the middle east.

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  12. doggone7 (744 comments) says:

    “..Cunliffe’s answer on Saturday was very misleading…”

    There must be some sort of honour for Cunliffe in making the citadel of misleading headlines and statements. For him to be recognised as a true master of the art though he as to learn how to do it so that it passes by or is accepted without the label.

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  13. kiwigunner (221 comments) says:

    Yes, they said that the governments proposed policy would be scrapped. That isn’t abot paying good teachers more as is asserted here rather it is designed (so Hekia says) to increase collaboration between schools. Indeed both her and Key are at pains to say that it is not performance pay.

    In the real world, I am a great teacher and I think the governments proposed policy won’t do much if anything for children, don’t car about the extra money on offer, and wold much rather see an extra teacher at our school because then the kids who need extra help would get it. In addition, my best colleagues wouldn’t be traipsing around the country from school to school, and the Principal would be here every day rather than spending two days a week elsewhere and parking a new car in the car park with his $40k bonus that could have been spent on children.

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  14. Unity (366 comments) says:

    Apartheid takes different forms and like it or not, special privilege based on race is apartheid. There is much in this country that is being funded based on a certain race that is not available to the rest of us. It seems many of you can’t see past Key’s pleasant manner and affable smile. I’m sure he is a very nice person but as a leader he is an appeaser and he has divided this country like no other. I voted National up until 2008 but when he went into coalition with the Maori Party when he didn’t need to, I left in disgust. Granted he did need them in 2011 but not in 2008. Fraudulent settlements have been going on in this country based on invented Principles and are done in Finlayson’s office. They don’t even go through the Courts any more and the rest of us have no right of appeal or protest. The Waitangi Tribunal is corrupt and just rubber stamps whatever those of Maori descent want. It should have been disbanded years ago.

    Obviously those who have down ticked me aren’t at all concerned at the billions that have been spent based on race. The day has already come where in certain parts of NZ that used to be public places now require a payment or special permission to be accessed. The day when you want to go to your usual local beach and have to pay, is the day when you will realise that you should have spoken up much sooner but by then it will be too late. How did that saying go? Something about evil prevails when good men do nothing. That’s so true.

    Having said that a Labour Green government doesn’t even bear thinking about and I will be voting for my local National MP but they won’t get my Party vote. That will go to a Party which will have binding referenda and racial equality under the law as its non-negotiable policy. Those two are crucial for our country to prosper.

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  15. Fisiani (976 comments) says:

    the Cunliffe says whatever he thinks his audience wants to hear. That is why he is called Tricky.As Stephen Joyce noted, “And on Saturday they claimed they would provide every student between years five and 13 with a digital device worth $600 by providing a $100 subsidy and having parents pay $3.50 a week for 18 months. This will be news to Labour, but this adds up to only $373 per device.”

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  16. Disaster Area (40 comments) says:

    Well said Kiwigunner. I would be very interested to see who is going to be given these pay rises, i.e. what criteria are they going to use to select the Superteachers? Is it going to be exam result based (which will be interesting in schools with only one teacher teaching a subject), is it on experience, qualifications, references or application?

    Traditionally the only way to get a pay rise in teaching is through time served and then promotion which takes the teacher out of the classroom. If we want quality teaching we have to fund decent quality, evidence based training. At the moment we have one day workshops of varying quality. Give us the money to do it properly.

    Why not pay teachers more if they do post grad papers on education? Why not subsidise them to do these papers? Why not pay them on the basis of curriculum development that they do at their schools? Why not fund relief so that teachers can meet in subject associations?

    Do I think that the extra money National are providing will make a difference? Yes.
    Do I think it’s the best use of the money? No.

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  17. DMS (52 comments) says:

    Slippery is Key, but he also qualifies as tricky. The list of his documented lies I think is now over 100. We play “Watch the eyes” and we can tell when is making things up. I hope he has a good holiday up in Hawaii, but I will miss playing “watch the eyes”!

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  18. Steve (North Shore) (4,517 comments) says:

    Isn’t ‘Slippery’ one of John Key’s nicknames?

    It’s also one of yours mate – pot kettle and shit

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  19. burt (7,948 comments) says:

    DMS

    You don’t need to play watch the eyes with socialists. You play watch the lips – when they move lies are being told.

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  20. Disaster Area (40 comments) says:

    Here’s a question for people: according to The Reader’s Digest, in 2013 teachers came joint 11th as the most trusted profession in NZ. Do you think that paying some of them more will raise the status of the profession?

    Or, to put it another way: will it raise your opinion of the profession? If not, why not?

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  21. Sir Cullen's Sidekick (824 comments) says:

    Oh God – Let this clown stay as the Labour leader until September 20th. National will be assured of a third term for sure….

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  22. Harriet (4,607 comments) says:

    “……Do you think that paying some of them more will raise the status of the profession? ……..Or, to put it another way: will it raise your opinion of the profession[teahing]? If not, why not?…”

    It’s those kids who disturb others that hold teachers back!

    Over 90% of teachers imho will be the best they can be -and very good at that- when they have full control of their classes — and can kick out those who disturb others.

    They should only be paid on performance once they are granted the right to kick kids out.

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  23. Disaster Area (40 comments) says:

    Ok then Harriet, here’s the same question I asked on another thread. Can you outline the criteria you would use for performance related pay?

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  24. freemark (497 comments) says:

    I don’t think Cunliffe is slippery.. those damn banana skins his colleagues keep dropping at his feet are though..

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  25. Harriet (4,607 comments) says:

    “……Ok then Harriet, here’s the same question I asked on another thread. Can you outline the criteria you would use for performance related pay?….”

    What amuses me is that wealthy parents can send their kids to a public school in NZ and not pay 1c extra towards their childrens education. No questions are ever asked by ‘wealth disparity’ activists ect.

    But if a ‘working class’ parent dare publicly suggest that kids are better off at a private school…….the left and the unions are all very quick to say that private schools should have less public funding —– so as to make it more expensive for ‘working parents’ to send their kids private. Talk about hypocracy!

    The unions and education department have too much of a say in education in NZ, and the only reason they do so is because they educate 92% of kiwi kids. North Korea educates 100%. Where as the Australia government educates about 72%.

    My youngest is still at school here in QLD with the Lutherans. Very good school. Costs me just under $4k pa all up. No ‘extras’ whatso ever. 8yrs old and goes to camp next term – that cost is included.

    $5 donation per kid per class towards the teachers welfare would be about $150 wk in NZ. $10 is about $300. That’s a lot of extra mortgage a teacher could pay-off if ‘small school fees’ were introduced. Something that ‘independent school boards’ should have come up with in NZ in the last 20yrs!!!!

    Parents need more of a say in their child’s education. And government far less.
    There is an arguement as to how much the government should have in someone’s education. But that will never be discussed will it?

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  26. Disaster Area (40 comments) says:

    Harriet, in NZ you can send your child to a private school that is traditional, progressive, based on religion, boarding or as a day student. You can send them to an integrated school that is affiliated to a church. You can send them to a charter school run on a military ethos. There are Montessori schools and Steiner schools. You can send them to a ‘normal’ school which can be technology focused, academically focused or one with an outdoor education focus. Or, they could go to the local school just down the road.

    And people say that there is no choice in NZ education!

    I have never argued against private education. If that is how you want to educate your child then fine. I have worked in a private school with no issues at all.

    But, you didn’t answer my question: how would you judge a teacher’s performance?

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  27. doggone7 (744 comments) says:

    Harriet: “The unions and education department have too much of a say in education in NZ, and the only reason they do so is because they educate 92% of kiwi kids. North Korea educates 100%. Where as the Australia government educates about 72%.
    Parents need more of a say in their child’s education. And government far less.
    There is an arguement as to how much the government should have in someone’s education. But that will never be discussed will it?

    Okay let’s have a discussion. Let’s get the Government right out of education. In that circumstance the Ministry of Education (education department you called it) can be got rid of. Education, schooling, can be completely up to parents. The ACT and National parties would be orgasmic because private schooling will be established to meet a needful market. No taxes would be needed for education, schools would teach what parents want, the market would decide.

    What do you think?

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  28. RightNow (6,780 comments) says:

    “Okay let’s have a discussion. Let’s get the Government right out of education. In that circumstance the Ministry of Education (education department you called it) can be got rid of.”

    And the unions too?

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  29. doggone7 (744 comments) says:

    “And the unions too?”

    Everything being free market who knows what would happen? Once a free market existed no-one could “get rid” of the unions – they would exist if a group of people decided to collaborate as a union. No-one for a free market and choice would argue with that. Draconian rules banning unions would be too much like North Korea wouldn’t it?

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  30. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Imagine another 2000 unionised lesbians and homos spreading their doctrine to young children. It is bad enough already, and we sure as hell don’t need any more representation by these filthy decadent scum.

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  31. Psycho Milt (2,337 comments) says:

    You know, National really needs to decide whether it’s going with “Cunliffe is so useless we really want him to stay as Labour leader” or these forced, comically-bad efforts to attach labels like “tricky” and “slippery” to him. For one thing, the second approach completely undermines the first, and for another, it’s obvious even to a casual observer that the labels “tricky” and “slippery” are unsuited to Cunliffe (ie, if he were attempting to be tricky or slippery, you’d have to assume he’s spectacularly bad at it). In fact, those terms, again even to a casual observer, are more obviously applicable to Key – maybe it would be sensible not to draw people’s attention to them?

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  32. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    PM: Cunliffe is a liar, proven by falsified CV, lying about relative’s war records, etc., etc. He is a effen goose, and a worthless excuse for a man.

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  33. kiwigunner (221 comments) says:

    Thank goodness we have the rich analysis of igm – that’s that settled.

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  34. doggone7 (744 comments) says:

    igm;
    Imagine another 2000 unionised lesbians and homos spreading their doctrine to young children. It is bad enough already, and we sure as hell don’t need any more representation by these filthy decadent scum.

    I copied this for the joy of seeing it again, to see if it really exists, to see if someone could actually write it. It’s the sort of thing seen in contemporary art, where what is presented is there to challenge people’s thinking. Or heard as slogans yelled by yobbos at hate rallies. The sort of thing which say more about the ranter than what they’re raving about.

    igm: PM: Cunliffe is a liar, proven by falsified CV, lying about relative’s war records, etc., etc. He is a effen goose, and a worthless excuse for a man.

    And this too of course which got complicated and lengthened on the way out! Surely it should have been “The PM is a liar.”

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