General Debate 15 May 2009

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goodgod

I think John Key made a mistake saying that Melissa Lee’s comments were “stupid”. You can’t have an MP saying their leader is stupid to say something, and equally, you cannot have a candidate for election being publicly denounced as stupid by the leader of the party. There were plenty of more diplomatic ways to say the same thing.
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May 15, 2009 7:52am
Chthoniid

Hmm, DPF is off to an early start this morning. My coffee hasn’t even brewed yet.

This week’s been dominated by tigers for me, so here’s a shot I took in Southern China last year.
http://chthoniid.zenfolio.com/img/v2/p175414868-4.jpg

Damn tricky animals to get to pose for you really- I was using a 500mm lens fwiw.

[DPF: Had to get up at 4 am to write my NBR column!]
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May 15, 2009 8:13am
bharmer

I disagree. The comments were “stupid”, at least in the sense that they were impolitic. He criticized her actions, not her. I think realism and a modicum of humility (“We got it wrong. We are sorry”) are very well received by the public.
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May 15, 2009 8:14am
petal

goodgod, you may not have noticed, but the people LIKE this directness from Key. I do. It WAS stupid. No need to start saying “ill-advised” or some other double-speak. It was a f-up actually. Admit it, take the hit, try to recover.
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May 15, 2009 8:20am
Tuija

So when National fuck up They don’t really fuck up as long as they say they are sorry?
We rammed through on urgency a super City model that is seriously flawed but we are sorry? Ye gods
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May 15, 2009 8:29am
bharmer

Tuija, can you pronounce “non sequitur”?
Nobody said anything remotely like your bizarre misrepresentation.
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May 15, 2009 8:40am
petal

“So when National fuck up They don’t really fuck up as long as they say they are sorry?”

Works for Catholics!
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May 15, 2009 8:45am
Bok

Tuija
Here is a bit of news for Lefties. To say sorry is to admit that you were wrong, admitting you were wrong or made a mistake, is the first step in fixing that mistake. Fixing mistakes are usually the better option than pretending they dont exist.

And there in lies the flaw in the Helen Clark government years and the ethos of the left currently, something so far removed from the original we look after the small guy labour movement from days of old.
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May 15, 2009 8:52am
goodgod

Of course you like it, petal, as far as I can gather from your comments you’re a Labour supporter!

Why would Key torpedo his own candidate? This isn’t the action of the man who gathers up all the support he can by involving the Maori party in his government when he doesn’t need to. Has he done any “straight talking” with Richard Worth? Nope. And what does Lockwood Smith do now? Oh that’s right he’s speaker of the house. No “straight talking” there either.

So it’s either an error, or he wants Lee gone and will risk giving up Mt. Albert to do it. I wonder how the people in Mt. Albert who would vote National feel about that?
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May 15, 2009 9:00am
Murray

Googgod, Key didn’t say she was stupid, he didn’t say what she said was stupid he said it was a stupid thing to say. A world of difference.

When you want to get elected you don’t say things people don’t want to hear. Thats pretty much all Lee has done.

Lee has displayed that she is a rank amature.
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May 15, 2009 9:07am
jcuknz

Chthoniid .. that’s the trouble with long lens you get too close 🙂 Have the same problem with my 950mm equivalent x2.2 teleadaptor on my x12 zoom that I cannot zoom back. Have a x1.7 which largely solves this problem.
Didn’t have it on for this shot http://www.geocties.com/jcuknz/sayarrrhP40817.jpg Luckilly for me he was feeling tired and stopped coming at me.

What FU? I think the protests are hillarious …. it was a fun remark based on good logic .. quite true but not to be taken too seriously. Any FU is on the part of the protestors not realising the humour of the remark.
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May 15, 2009 9:12am
virtualmark

I’m intrigued by the Matty Johns sex scandal story.

As far as I can tell, this woman went along willingly to hookup with 2 Cronulla players. It’s not clear how much she encouraged their attentions. Things may have got out of hand later, as more guys came into the room. But it’s not clear at all what firm steps she took at the time to ask them to stop. She complained to Police shortly after, but they didn’t lay any charges. That suggests no laws were broken, which in turn suggests she didn’t ask them to stop – I’m sure the Police would lay charges for something as serious as rape.

Now, 7 years later she’s making a story of this. Again, it’s not clear just why now.

I have no doubt this woman is genuinely upset about what happened. But I’m surprised that at least someone in the media isn’t pressing her about her own level of responsibility for what happened. (Well, no I’m not really that surprised, the media want prurient gossip far more than they want truth).

So it seems like a consenting adult did something that later made them feel like a slapper. Now, 7 years later, she wants 15 minutes of fame.

Meanwhile Matty Johns is going to lose his career over something that might be morally not a good look, but where no laws were broken and where he’s been singled out as the only scapegoat while however many other guys get off scot-free.

(Ducks for cover in anticipation of outraged comments)
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May 15, 2009 9:12am
goodgod

Murray, an MPs job is to think and speak. A leader saying an MPs words are stupid means they are not capable of being an MP. That’s why you never hear it said in politics. Until now. Key could have contained the situation by using diplomacy. He didn’t, either because of strategy or error.
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May 15, 2009 9:14am
Paul Marsden

Typical NZ….shooting the messenger. Lee is factually correct. South Auckland is the crime capital of NZ and there is significant data from overseas, which clearly show shifts in crime patterns when motorways disect communities. Hell, even the NZ police commented on it earlier and are now denying it.
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May 15, 2009 9:14am
jcuknz

Sorry lionk wrong … http://geocities.yahoo.com/jcuknz/sayarrrhP40817.jpg,
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May 15, 2009 9:15am
Murray

Key isn’t exactely a hardened campaigner either though is he goodgod.
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May 15, 2009 9:21am
dime

Lee may have “fucked up” politically, but her point was correct.

All the “cant criminals use an offramp” is bullsh*t.

FACT – criminals driving through your streets will commit opportunistic crimes.

Scenario 1: Sale & Talofa need to get to westgate. they can take the motorway.. there are no real opportunities for them to commit crimes on the motorway 🙁

Scenario 2: Sale & Talofa need to get to westgate. They take the streets that lead through Mt Roskill. On the way they see a 16 yr old girl walking alone on the footpath. they rape her. then 3km’s later, they see a big, juicy, open window. they cant help themseleves, they are still on an adrenaline high from the rape. they bust in and help themseleves to a plasma.

So its all good for Waterview peeps. Not so flash for westgate!
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May 15, 2009 9:22am
petal

goodgod, the only time I voted for labour I got Ruth and Roger. Just like a lot of Labour voters voting for Key in the last election, it was the right thing to do at the time.
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May 15, 2009 9:22am
Paul Marsden

virtualmark (724) Vote: 0 0 Says:

May 15th, 2009 at 9:12 am
I’m intrigued by the Matty Johns sex scandal story.

I’m incensed by it. This woman, who crys crocodile tears years after the event and to which she willing consented, but now (and for whatever twisted reason), is intent on destroying the lives of many people. She gives women a bad name. She should be publicly identified and face-up to the scrutiny of the press, just like these other poor sods are having to do.
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May 15, 2009 9:26am
petal

Ok dime, now you’re creeping me out….
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May 15, 2009 9:26am
jcuknz

Third time lucky … http://www.geocities.com/jcuknz/sayarrrhP40817.jpg
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May 15, 2009 9:27am
Murray

You’re not polling well in Mt Albert either dime.
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May 15, 2009 9:28am
Redbaiter

“I voted for labour I got Ruth and Roger.”

Key is hardly Ruth and Roger. Neither he nor any of the equivocating Nats have the guts or the principle of those two.
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May 15, 2009 9:28am
jcuknz

Bless the woman .. she didn’t apologise for the remark in the comments I heard on TV3 … just for the distress it caused a few thin skinned twits who don’t appreciate the element, very small element, of truth in the remark..
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May 15, 2009 9:32am
fredinthegrass

It was worth the wait, jcuknz, but ohhhhhh, the breath.
With Chthoniid, and now you, as well as a double shot of “Cruise Control”,
Friday mornings are looking up.
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May 15, 2009 9:35am
petal

“Key is hardly Ruth and Roger.”

That’s another conversation. My point is that I voted labour ONCE and that was because back then it was the best thing for NZ. Just like a lot of Labour voters voted National, probably just once, because it was the best thing for NZ.

(right, I have to do some work – have fun boys)
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May 15, 2009 9:38am
dime

Im prepared to lose in Mt Roskill.

Labour can win and talk about how “New Zealanders want a change” and all that. Who cares.

Dime will be impressed when Labour win the North Shore.
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May 15, 2009 9:47am
Tim Ellis

I think Labour have gone in too hard against Lee. They have, as Whale has pointed out, thrown the kitchen sink at her using everybody from Phil Goff and Trevor Mallard to throw the innuendo. The public aren’t stupid, and they know a stitch-up when they see one.

I don’t think images of the media hounding Lee for apology after apology will go down well for the Labour Party. They’re risking a backlash of sympathy towards somebody who’s been given a rough ride following a couple of loose comments.

I wouldn’t write off her campaign just yet. There are reports that she and Shearer have been neck and neck in internal party polls. It wouldn’t surprise me if that situation hasn’t changed.
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May 15, 2009 10:00am
Murray

Um… didn’t we want change and in fact get it fairly recently?

It wasn’t good news for Labour either.
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May 15, 2009 10:00am
Chuck Bird

What do others think of this sentence? I hear callers ringing Leighton Smith saying the mother was victim and should not have been jailed.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10572312

Mother jailed over death of seven-year-old son
6:50PM Thursday May 14, 2009

Duwayne Pailegutu. Photo / Tim Cuff

A woman whose seven-year-old son was brutally murdered by his stepfather was today jailed for three years for failing to provide her son with the necessities of life.

Judge Phil Gittos told Mary Joachim, 28, in Auckland District Court the case was a tragedy for her more than anybody else.
“You were vulnerable to being oppressed by an abusive partner. Nevertheless, during the times when he was at work, when you weren’t under his immediate control, your good sense should have asserted itself.

“Your sentence needs to serve as a deterrent to others. But your culpability needs to be seen in light of threats to you and the child, and in light of the long history of abuse being in this relationship,” Judge Gittos said.

Joachim admitted the charge in November at the start of a depositions hearing in Nelson District Court.

Her son, Duwayne Toetu Taote Pailegutu, died on July 2, eight days after a vicious and sustained attack by his stepfather Johnny Joachim at the family’s home Stoke.
Crown prosecutor Kirsten Lummis told Auckland District Court today that culpability was an overriding factor.

“Her son was unable to move without assistance for a number of days. He’s seven years old and was made to use nappies as he had difficulty getting to the toilet as he was in so much pain.

“She took time off to care for her son but she did not seek medical treatment. Alarm bells must have been ringing for some time.

“It would have been very apparent following the assault that he was critically ill. The extent of his multiple injuries meant that medical attention may not have guaranteed his recovery without disability, but it would have prevented his death,” Ms Lummis said.

She added that Joachim was also aware that her husband Johnny Joachim was forcing her son to “exercise” by forcing him to move his limbs and pressing against his stomach to make him expel phlegm and blood from his chest and stomach.

“She deliberately kept her son from going to school, and misled the school about his whereabouts, given that he wouldn’t have been able to return to school for some time because of the state he was in,” Ms Lummis said.

Graeme Newell, defending Joachim, told the court that she had told a probation officer and the police that her husband had told her if she rang for an ambulance she would never see her son again.

“She did not ring the ambulance because she did not care or love her son, she omitted to act because she was afraid she would not see her son again.

Joachim had argued with her husband about seeking medical help.

“During one of these arguments he assaulted her in front of the victim, forced her down onto the bed next to where he was lying and told him to say goodbye to his mother as he would never see her again,” Mr Newell said.

He added that Joachim had only known her husband for eight months before she married him.

“She entered an early guilty plea at her third court appearance. She has shown remorse and is of previous good character. There is also a low risk of her re-offending,” Mr Newell said.

The maximum penalty for failing to provide the necessities of life is seven years imprisonment.

Johnny Joachim, 37, who was found guilty of murder, was jailed for life in October, with an 18-year non-parole period.

His sentencing hearing was told he had been angry with Duwayne for leaving a jumper at school and not showing respect to him.

He inflicted upon him a beating that left the boy semi-conscious, partly paralysed and struggling to breathe.
Speaking outside court after the sentencing, Mr Newell told NZPA he would be seeking to appeal.
– NZPA
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May 15, 2009 10:03am
Murray

Chuck link and/or summary please. Massive cut n’ pastes are the lazy persons excuse for not using their own brains.
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May 15, 2009 10:14am
Paul Marsden

Chuck Bird. Brings tears to my eyes. However, its lucky that we now have the anti-smacking legislation which will curb this behaviour.
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May 15, 2009 10:20am
Murray

So who misses racer?

I didn’t.

Ha ha.
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May 15, 2009 10:22am
NOt1tocommentoften

Exactly Paul. Well said.
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May 15, 2009 10:28am
voice of reason

Sir Ed’s family sue over papers

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10572429

“Boy, I’ve got to say [Auckland Museum director] Vanda Vitali has been very difficult to deal with.
“I have asked and asked and asked basically for a cup of coffee to talk things over. She just won’t have it.”
Peter Hillary

This is absurd – a family having to resort to legal action to gain access to what is clearly and naturally their own property.
It seems Vitali has no idea of the spirit in which Sir Ed operated. He would have thought that others would have understood and empathised with that natural NZ spirit as well. However Vitali as an American sees only legalese.
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May 15, 2009 10:31am
Murray

The Auckland museum has been getting a bit odd over the last couple of yes.
They first offer a place for an air foce memorial then change their minds as one example. They really seem to think they’re a law unto themselves some days.
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May 15, 2009 10:35am
village idiot

Bill English is NOT going to like his very public CRACK over the knuckles over the cycleway screw-up.
There will BE no $50 000 000, not THIS year, not NEXT year and not the year AFTER!!
CRACK!! CRACK!! CRACK!!! (ssssssorry John… sir!)
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May 15, 2009 10:45am
Paul Marsden

I think Vitali is Canadian. Whatever, she’s a foreigner running an institution which in my view, should be headed by a NZ’r.
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May 15, 2009 10:53am
goodgod

VoR, the alternate view of that is that Hillary was a national Icon. People used him as the source of all knowledge when that climber had to leave a dying man behind on Everest; he was on the $5 bill; he was knighted and greeted by royality; and he got a state funeral. I get the impression that Hillary himself ignored his status because it offended his values, but it did not eliminate it. I can see how the ownership of an man’s work can subtly switch from family to state. At that point, the family will have to deal with the state in all its legal glory whether they like it or not.
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May 15, 2009 10:55am
voice of reason

Yes you are right she is a Canadian – her last appointment was in LA Natural History Musem
…… “anyways” Canada is in the continent of America 😉
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May 15, 2009 10:58am
Murray

She certainly doesn’t seem to be in touch with kiwis and kiwi values.

Slanging off the living serviemen is fine but the dead ones are scared. Even Hullen got that.
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May 15, 2009 11:02am
voice of reason

goodgod (1298)
May 15th, 2009 at 10:55 am

Maybe what you say has some merit, however it certainly is not up to a Museum director / ceo or whatever to decide what is owned by the state –

The default state of affairs should be that the family’s say comes first and no doubt that would have been what Sir Eds intent was when he wrote his will.
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May 15, 2009 11:02am
Chthoniid

@jcuknz

Chthoniid .. that’s the trouble with long lens you get too close 🙂

Nah, the problem is when you’re close to tigers you can’t step back a few metres to get a better frame. The sods will see you leave cover and either run away or kill you.

I’ve since abandoned the 500mm lens (it was a reflex/mirror lens to save weight). I tend to use a 300/4 G now, sometimes with a 1.4x TC. Primes tend to have the advantage of being tack-sharp at their maximum focal length (less compromises in the design).

Nice seal shot- where was it taken?
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May 15, 2009 11:11am
Murray

Tigers are just big pussy cats.

That doesn’t mean tigers are safe, it means cats are just as damn dangerous. You miss one feeding time and you’ll find out that those claws still work.

Domesticated my ass, they’re keeping us for their purposes.
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May 15, 2009 11:19am
alex Masterley

My two cents worth.
The reports of Sir Ed’s will suggest he made an absolute gift of his papers inthe cluase the herald reproduced etc to the Museum with the rider that his family had the power to veto any attempt to publish extracts or the papers in full. It doesn’t mean to my mind, that the family have any possessory right in those items or that “ownership” in them is somehow shared with the Museum.
Oh and materials aren’t owned by the state, the Museum is a separate legal entity.
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May 15, 2009 11:37am
voice of reason

Extract as reported in the Herald

“my personal papers, diaries, maps, colour slides, photographs and other written and illustrative material relating to my life and adventures” to the museum, “with the proviso that [Sarah and Peter] shall have ready access to and the right to publish such material if they think fit”.
The clause says no other person or corporate body may publish any of the material without the consent of the Hillary children for 20 years after Sir Ed’s death.

“The museum is opposing the Hillarys’ view that they have ownership rights to Sir Ed’s possessions.”

The intent is clear – Sir Ed wanted his children to have access to and contol over publication of the items.
No amount of re-interpretation by lawyers should change this. New Zealanders know what Sir Eds intent was.
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May 15, 2009 11:53am
Chthoniid

I still feel safer around a hungry 5kg mog than a 250kg Siberian in all its fired up, killing mode Murray 🙂
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May 15, 2009 11:58am
alex Masterley

The words in the extract are clear as is their intent, the items in question are given to the musem. with access rights and the power to veto publication given to the children. Those rights (such as they are) don’t mean they, the children own the items. They are simply access rights and rights similar to copyright in the materials.
Taking the matter to court will simply cost the estate, the museum and the children money.
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May 15, 2009 12:08pm
Murray

Yes they want you to have that illusion of safety Chtohild, its keeps the jellymeat coming.
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May 15, 2009 12:13pm
goodgod

What is it with rugby players and policemen that they like to have, or watch their friends having, group sex? Am I the only man not interested in doing this stuff?

I read that at one point two of the players were rubbing their penises (peni?) against her face at the same time. Now I’m no doctor of medicine, but the face is has a fairly small surface area and given the size of the average penis and the proximity of the participants it would suggest that more than just shoulders bumped. Was the woman’s face merely co-incidental? And what were a half dozen guys doing holed-up up in a hotel room while others were out partying, and apparently, “ready to go”? I think it may have been a godsend that a woman turned up at all. 😯

Very strange these boys-club cultures.
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May 15, 2009 12:46pm
Chuck Bird

Chuck link and/or summary please. Massive cut n’ pastes are the lazy persons excuse for not using their own brains.

Murray, point taken. However, I think this was think this issue is a lot my important than many issues arguing over a few dollars. I would be great if the Commissioner of Families or the Commissioner of Children. I doubt if we will though because it is not PC to criticise women.

I do not think women can or should have it both ways. Women are meant to be strong enough to work in men’s prisons, in the police in duties most suitable for a large strong man and in the front lines in the military. Yet, women are excused according to some for failing to protect their child(ren) by getting help even when the abuser is not near.

I will try to keep my quotes shorter in future.
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May 15, 2009 12:57pm
Chuck Bird

False rape complaints

There seems to be more to the story than first reported.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25485318-601,00.html

Cronulla group-sex players urged to confess

The woman involved told the ABC’s Four Corners program on Monday night that she had been traumatised by the incident in which Johns and five others had sex with her, and others came into the room. But last night, her claims were questioned by a former workmate, who spoke to the woman in the days after she had group sex with members of the NRL team.

Tania Boyd told the Nine Network – Johns’s long-time employer – that the woman in the Four Corners report, identified as “Clare”, had boasted to her workmates about bedding several players and only contacted police five days after the alleged incident.

“She was absolutely excited about the fact. She was bragging about it to the staff and quite willingly, openly, saying how she had sex with several players,” Ms Boyd said. “We were quite disgusted about it. There was no trauma whatsoever.

“I’m disgusted that a woman can all of a sudden change her story from having a great time to then turning it into a terrible crime. We all just thought it was hilarious until five days later the police came to work, and we were horrified she had changed her story to say she was now a victim of crime.”
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May 15, 2009 1:23pm
Paul Marsden

Chuck. As I said earlier, this little hoe gives women a bad name. Especially those who like to feast upon more than one man at a time. And I know plenty that do.
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May 15, 2009 2:02pm
Murray

Heys its not like theres a precedent in New Zealand of women draging up decades old complaints for another run at the system is it?
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May 15, 2009 2:20pm
Paul Marsden

Murray. It’s a woman’s prerogative to change her mind.
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May 15, 2009 2:27pm
dave strings

Chthoniid

Works with Tamil Tigers too.

You try to run away from them – they shoot you!

Go figure.
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May 15, 2009 3:19pm
gd

that bird who runs the Auckland Museum sure seems a strange one And a tough nut Not one you would want to cross.

I recall when she arrived she went thru the place like a dose of salts firing staff left right and centre

Sounds like a graduate from the KGB School of Charm and Deportment
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May 15, 2009 3:25pm
Fisiani

How many thousands of dollars of our hard earned cash are being consumed by Labour’s hundreds of pedantic petty amendments? Life is precious. Family time for staff and Mp’s is important.
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May 15, 2009 4:38pm
voice of reason

“I recall when she arrived she went thru the place like a dose of salts firing staff left right and centre
Sounds like a graduate from the KGB School of Charm and Deportment”

Yes particularly when it has been reported that “outplaced” staff had to sign media gagging clauses as part of their severance
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May 15, 2009 4:48pm
Murray

Thats sounds dodgy as hell vor.

Whats the “or what” aspect of that arrangement. It can’t be sign it or we wont fire you and anything else has got to be seen as coercion of some kind.
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May 15, 2009 5:01pm
jcuknz

Paul Marsden … you are very naive in thinking that the anti-smacking bill will prevent a re-occurance of the tragedy of the boy. Sure a woman can change her mind but not with matters as related above.

Chthoniid … the seal was on the beach northeast from Tomahawk in Dunedin, I had the camera on 1 second ‘review’ in the EVF and didn’t see him start to come at me ….quite scarey … silly old fool trying to be a wildlife tog standing by myself in the middle of about a km of empty beach.
Another scary animal was the bobcat, despite being behind a fence [and presumably I was safe] at a park-zoo in Colorado.[ at least the brown bear was in a fully enclosed cage] I had to turn my back on it to walk away BUT. A couple of weeks earlier a pair of short tailed bobcats had run across the road in front of my car at the top end of Phantom Canyon. The keen twit got out of the car to see one of them standing watching me from some trees across a small paddock .. [t 3000mm plus AoV needed] so I took one frame at 430mm AoV and walked back to the car. Afterwards I wondered if its mate was hiding in the undergrowth beside the road, rearguard style ….the thought sends shivers down my spine even now.
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May 15, 2009 5:08pm
Bandycoot

Fisiani,

I caught some of the facre that is our parliament on the way home – must say I haven’t been much more incensed than hearing Labours proposed amendments for Auckland to be called Auckland Super Cty until Feb 18 2010 (not passed), until Feb 17 2010 (not passed), until Feb 16 2010 (not passed), until Feb 15 2010 (not passed), until Feb 14 2010 (not passed).. at which point I turned off in amazement that we pay these buffoons to represent us – nothing more than f**ken morons. Although often against any proposal by Labour, I am able to be open minded enough to let opposition parties state their reasons for opposing legislation and proposing amendments that could possibly make legislation better, but there is absolutely no possible value in this bullshit.
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May 15, 2009 5:43pm
jcuknz

She who must be obeyed, at risk of sharp claws in tender places, instructs me to refer you to http://www.geocities.com/smudge_clover/index.html
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May 15, 2009 5:44pm
Paul Marsden

jcuknz (158) Vote: 1 1 Says:

May 15th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Paul Marsden … you are very naive in thinking that the anti-smacking bill will prevent a re-occurance of the tragedy of the boy. Sure a woman can change her mind but not with matters as related above.

I’m very naive.

Either that or, my name is Sue Bradford. (Speaking of which, where is that appalling, mammalian creature nowadays??)
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May 15, 2009 9:20pm
Bullitt

Sue is probably working on improving her public profile ahead of the leadership vote. The only way she can achieve that is by hiding and keeping very quiet.
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May 16, 2009 1:06am

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