China FTA Details

April 7th, 2008 at 3:49 pm by David Farrar

Details are now flowing via NZPA:

  • Tariffs on 96% of exports to to be eliminated
  • On 1 October 2008, tariffs removed on $200 million of exports, making 35% of exports tariff free
  • By 2013, 66% will be tariff free
  • By 2019 all but $80 million will be tariff free
  • If any future trade deal gives a country better access rights, we automatically get those also
  • All NZ tariffs on imports to be gone by 2016
  • 1,800 skilled Chinese workers can be in NZ at any one time (poor Peter Brown!)
  • Those workers will be in areas where we are lacking skills such as mandarin language teachers, Chinese chefs, nurses and plumbers

The time taken for some barriers to go is slower than many would want, but for me it is the end position which is most important, and that is having 96% of exports tariff free.

UPDATE: The Govt website on the FTA is now live.

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90 Responses to “China FTA Details”

  1. peterquixote (231 comments) says:

    goo0d

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  2. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    “1,800 skilled Chinese workers can be in NZ at any one time (poor Peter Brown!)”

    AND, how many unskilled agricultural workers from China?

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  3. Andrew W (1,629 comments) says:

    We should have fought harder for more Chinese workers.

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  4. gd (2,286 comments) says:

    D4J I would rather hard working unskilled workers from China India and other countries than non working unskilled workers from (cough) certain ethnic groups who claim everything and give nothing to society and the economy.

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  5. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    Cough, cough say no more gd , those fat slobs wouldn’t work in an iron lung. I suppose a 200 million action ready army is pretty cool and is a fun idea.

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  6. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “1,800 skilled Chinese workers can be in NZ at any one time ”

    That’s a huge pool of prospective Chinese government intelligence agents. If it isn’t already, this will ensure that our government is fully penetrated by a large and powerful dictatorship. Inevitable I guess.

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  7. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    D4J:

    Did you see “brokeback mountain” on TV1 last night?

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  8. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    roger will you be meeting the Chinese warship sailors at the port?

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  9. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    I can’t see anything to be overjoyed about in those figures. From 35% to 96% tariff reduction over a 10 year period. All China’s exports are tariff free by 2016 but NZ has to wait until 2019 and only get 96%??

    No wonder Klark wanted the details kept secret. So eager to get a deal agreed to and spite the US, she signed up to buy a pup from the Chicoms. Socialists and ivory tower academics.. fucken hopeless. The minute you let them near anything financial, its always a prize fuckup.

    ..and gee whiz.. just what the country is crying out for- Chinese language teachers, (I mean there must be one hell of a demand), more Chinese cooks, like there’s such a shortage of Chinese restaurants, and I’ll bet the nurse’s union is looking forward to the arrival of all those sweet little Chicom honeys. The health sector will be so much improved by having a big bunch of carers with only a rudimentary understanding of the English language. Still, can’t get much worse I suppose. .

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  10. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    roger may I suggest that brokeback mountain supporters are in a bit of trouble in Mr China Town.

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  11. Grant Michael McKenna (1,156 comments) says:

    I certainly do want to see the details- as redbaiter has indicated, there seem to be some imbalances. The skilled worker limit is an interesting concept.

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  12. Danyl Mclauchlan (1,066 comments) says:

    This flood of chinese immigrants will put our own decent, hard-working kiwi mandarin teachers and acupuncturists out of work.

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  13. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    No chance of putting you out of a job- no karma Danyl. Got a red flag to wave at the fleet?

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  14. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “This flood of chinese immigrants will put our own decent, hard-working kiwi mandarin teachers and acupuncturists out of work.”

    One would assume these commies will be subject to normal immigration checks and procedures. If they aren’t Danny, why not??

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  15. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    How many Chinese Warships are doing a cruise downunder Miss Klark and Mr Gaff?

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  16. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “All China’s exports are tariff free by 2016 but NZ has to wait until 2019 and only get 96%??”

    That’s a difference of 3 years and 4% respectively. Not so major considering that by 2019 China will have surpassed Japan as the second largest economy in the world – while we’ll still be one of the smallest in the developed world. NZ is always going to be bargaining from a position of relative weakness in trade negotiations with China. I’m just surprised that Clark, Goff etc. managed to get that good a deal.

    [DPF: Yep it is a good deal.]

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  17. NoCash (256 comments) says:

    Danyl Mclauchlan – “This flood of chinese immigrants will put our own decent, hard-working kiwi mandarin teachers and acupuncturists out of work.”

    I presume most of the current NZ workers in this group are already Chinese, so what’s the problem? Besides, the new comers will have to live in NZ, meaning that very likely they won’t be able to undercut the established due to high living costs here.

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  18. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    pure insanity from roger gnome who will talk about global warming from a Chinese industrial chimney or maybe a Monks robe shop?

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  19. Jack5 (4,786 comments) says:

    GD writes of “non working unskilled workers from (cough) certain ethnic groups who claim everything and give nothing to society and the economy.”

    Why doesn’t he have the balls to name the groups straight out rather than use innuendo.

    Only pansy-liberals would welcome a trade agreement which sells out our right to decide who comes into the country, especially when the sell-out is to Red China, with the blood of 40 million of its own people on its hands (the Great Leap Forward), and oppressor of minorities like the Tibetans and Uighurs.

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  20. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “That’s a difference of 3 years”

    Fuck off somewhere else and talk about Brokeback Mountain. If there was any justice, you would have a pile of demerits for that. Just a pro gummint commie propagandist.

    [DPF: Actually Rogernome gave an on topic response without abuse which doesn't get demerits, and afraid that is 10 demerits for the unnecessary abuse. You make some amazingly cogent arguments often, but telling people to eff off just leads to threads becoming flame wards]

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  21. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    If the Nats had the balls they should have they’d be tearing this deal to shreds. A free trade agreement is one thing. A pathetic no benefit sell out by a craven self focused socialist eager to earn a pat on the head from her Chicom mates and spite the US is another.

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  22. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    “Did you see “brokeback mountain” on TV1 last night?’

    What no demerits ? Oh that’s right, it’s rogered gnomer,the know all do anything anytime cause he’s a special case.

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  23. slightlyrighty (2,499 comments) says:

    Danyl.

    Does the prospect of Chinese nurses give you some solace, assuming you are the same Danyl Mclauchlan who was reported in the Dom Post having had issues at Wellington Hospital recently?

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  24. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Umm, think DM’s taking the piss NC et al. It’s what he does. This is the best of his work that I’ve seen:

    Bush Defacation Scandal Running Out of Steam
    Reuters
    29 February 2008
    THE MAN at the center of the Bush Defacation Scandal, New Zealand citizen Clint Heine has come out in defense of the President in a strongly worded public statement providing much needed political cover for the White House.

    One week ago the President broke into Heine’s home tied him down and defacated in his mouth, acts that draw sharp criticism from Democratic Senators and even some Republicans. Heine, however, has come out strongly in favor of the right of the Executive to attack people and fill their mouths with excrement.

    ‘These people who want to prevent President Bush from enjoying himself in whatever manner he pleases have already let the terrorists win,’ Heine announced in a press statement. ‘Any attempt to curtain the Presidents ability to fill peoples mouths with warm, steaming ordure must be seen as the base, partisan political trickery typical of the democrats.’

    ‘Why don’t [House Speaker] Pelosi and [Senate Leader] Reid just let the President get on with his scatophilia and address the issues that people really care about?’

    In a later statement to the press Heine launched a furious attack on former President Bill Clinton.

    ‘Clinton went to the bathroom all the time. And you can bet his fecal matter was bitter and unhygenic – not delicious and savory like Bush’s was.’ When reporters raised the issue that Clinton deposited his faeces in a toilet and not peoples mouth Heine dismissed the point as irrelevent ‘Bush bashing’.

    President Bush, squatting and straining over the bound form of an unidentified individual known only as ‘Redbaiter’ was not available for comment.

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/07/bush_commutes_libby_sentence.html

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  25. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    Hahaha, Mr China man walk away from news conference when reporters are rumoured to challenge his cruel position on Tibet? Well done Miss Klark and Mr Gaff, as you just made us the laughing stock of the world. But what’s new, only last year George B laughed at Lemon Face.

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  26. NoCash (256 comments) says:

    Does this FTA cover trading with Hong Kong?

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  27. metcalph (1,397 comments) says:

    150 Martial Arts Coaches? Are they planning on establishing a Shaolin Temple here or something?

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  28. Simeon (142 comments) says:

    Here is my take

    http://nzdebate.blogspot.com/2008/04/helen-clark-has-signed-free-trade.html

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  29. Ed Snack (1,775 comments) says:

    I have to say that the typical political spin is put on this deal. The immediate benefits appear to be about $50M in reduced tariffs for NZ goods, and what’s that, some 0.0X% of our exports, where X tends towards zero, assuming that various non-tariff barriers aren’t put in our way ? It is not until 2019 that the full benefits accrue, and even then they’re pretty derisory. Although trade is good and I’m a free trade advocate myself, I think an awful lot is being made here of very little. And 1800 skilled workers, specially selected by the Chinese no doubt ?

    Roger, your scatophilic fantasies say rather a lot more about you than perhaps you like to think, at least we know why most of your ideas stink.

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  30. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    “If the Nats had the balls they should have they’d be tearing this deal to shreds. A free trade agreement is one thing. A pathetic no benefit sell out by a craven self focused socialist eager to earn a pat on the head from her Chicom mates and spite the US is another”

    Yep, Redbaiter is right, and I do speak from some experience, traveling to China and my subsequent involvement with the meat industry there. If.. sorry.. when they pick up their game, they won’t need any primary produce from NZ. The Chicom Govt is pouring HUGE treasures into developing the primary sector – and this is a country that already slaughters 600 million pigs a year, and a has market that although large, is not all that big on dairy products.

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  31. NoCash (256 comments) says:

    d4j – “Hahaha, Mr China man walk away from news conference when reporters are rumoured to challenge his cruel position on Tibet? Well done Miss Klark and Mr Gaff, as you just made us the laughing stock of the world. But what’s new, only last year George B laughed at Lemon Face.”

    Don’t worry mate, I think apart from NZ and a few corners of China, the rest of world won’t even consider this FTA newsworthy.

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  32. joegreen (16 comments) says:

    If we separate the ethical considerations of cosying up the Red Chinese from the monetary value of the deal we set a poor precedent for our children. In a way it reminds me of the old line by a famous criminal; when asked why he robbed banks the answer was “Because that’s where the money is.”

    Mercurial ex-head of the WTO and former prime minister of New Zealand without a legacy said on the business news this morning that anyone who doesn’t agree with the deal therefore agrees with the idea of ‘Keeping New Zealand poor by taxing goods coming and going into China.’ The obvious problem with that meme is that a) New Zealand is not poor and b) there are many alternatives for the New Zealand economy – it is not as red and white as he paints it.

    Poverty comes in many forms too: Buying cheap rubbish from China that ends up in landfills impoverishes the buyer and the country.

    Ignoring the Chinese government’s appalling disregard for human rights – currently being played out in Tibet behind an Iron Curtain shows a poverty of principle.

    Increasing the level of dairy farming in New Zealand and trumpeting ‘white gold’ as the long term saviour of the New Zealand economy shows a poverty of vision and will impoverish the New Zealand environment further than it has been already from the toxic effects of farming.

    Han Yang from the University of Auckland – says it is ‘politically easy’ for China to do business with New Zealand. Well, of course it is. Our sweetheart deal makes no difference to the Chinese but distorts our economy to the extent that our dependence will affect our independence. He says that it is because New Zealand doesn’t publicly criticise the Chinese over their human rights abuses.

    Even on the day of signing the details of the arrangement were kept secret. That is unacceptable in our liberal democracy. (Though, who knows, maybe we’re no longer a democracy but haven’t been advised of the details yet?).

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  33. emmess (1,387 comments) says:

    We should have got in a few tens of thousands of temporary labourers to build a decent motorway network connecting the main cities.
    Probably would have cost less that the Waterview tunnel in total

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  34. baxter (893 comments) says:

    I hope those 1800 workers will have to display a knowledge of the principles of the Tireti te Aotearoa before they arrive and that they are made to promise to go home when their term ends, and don’t spend hundreds of thousands in legal aid costs going through the appeals system in order to stay, and they won’t marry our women or get them preggers, or get civil unions with local homosexuals. They won’t do that will they?

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  35. mara (744 comments) says:

    I do not trust this arrangement. The power imbalance is too large. I think that only time will tell how we have been screwed here. Or this deal is kosher, but we are part of a bigger Chinese plan. Somewhere down the line, we will be the losers.

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  36. metcalph (1,397 comments) says:

    The obvious problem with that meme is that a) New Zealand is not poor and b) there are many alternatives for the New Zealand economy – it is not as red and white as he paints it.

    What are the alternatives?

    Buying cheap rubbish from China that ends up in landfills impoverishes the buyer and the country.

    So I’m poorer if I buy a cheap computer part from China rather than an expensive one from Japan that does exactly the same thing? And if I can’t buy a more expensive part and have to forgo the part that I want because it’s “rubbish” I am somehow better off?

    Ignoring the Chinese government’s appalling disregard for human rights – currently being played out in Tibet behind an Iron Curtain shows a poverty of principle.

    I don’t think anybody is ignoring China’s human rights issues. Just noting that the current regime is a hell of a lot better than what went on during the Cultural Revolution and the chief cause of this phenomenon is greater trade and communication with the outside world.

    Increasing the level of dairy farming in New Zealand and trumpeting ‘white gold’ as the long term saviour of the New Zealand economy shows a poverty of vision and will impoverish the New Zealand environment further than it has been already from the toxic effects of farming.

    I don’t see any other country which has been turned into a uninhabitable nuclear nitrate wasteland by herding cows. And most of the world has been doing so for at least two thousand years.

    Our sweetheart deal makes no difference to the Chinese but distorts our economy to the extent that our dependence will affect our independence.

    Our economy has long been distorted by trade – we simply do not have the internal market to be autarkic. We defied the US over trading with Iran during the hostage crisis and that was only because Iran was buying our shit lamb when nobody else would. We are heavily dependent on having freer access to outside markets for future wealth and that requires us to indulge in public acts of prostitution from time to time.

    He says that it is because New Zealand doesn’t publicly criticise the Chinese over their human rights abuses.

    As opposed to the yanks and everybody else who refrain from publicly criticizing China whenever possible. We are only better at it because we are too small for foreign media to start asking difficult questions.

    Even on the day of signing the details of the arrangement were kept secret. That is unacceptable in our liberal democracy.

    The arrangement details are out. And the FTA will not come into force until passed by our parliament. Therein lies the scope for democratic debate.

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  37. metcalph (1,397 comments) says:

    I do not trust this arrangement. The power imbalance is too large.

    So you would not want trade with the US or the EU either?

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  38. JSF2008 (422 comments) says:

    IM happy .the arsehole red tibetian killers will target IT. 1799 new IT workers will put the smart arseholes who hate my engliish out of a job.These chinese will not come here to take printing jobs or farm jobs BUT (IT) JOBS, fuck helen hates you lot, The red chinese who WILL control Knowledge WILL run our sad little country run by a sad warty (did you see her on the news )A GOOSE STEPPING FEMINEST robert murgabe type checking out the tibetian killers rifles(and she has the little nosehair) like the 86 yo has (whose copying who)
    PS the one chinese left will be a liarbor arsehole licker, working the phones still asking for money for the big whiparound, a good rort, a true member of the peoples republic (KILLERS) from china
    A good deal for fonterrar ,a SAD day for the workers of New Zealand
    ps get used to a disgusting range of dirty food curtisey of helen davis nee clark, welcome to asia,and the continued downward spiral of our once proud country

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  39. NoCash (256 comments) says:

    mara – “I do not trust this arrangement. The power imbalance is too large. I think that only time will tell how we have been screwed here. Or this deal is kosher, but we are part of a bigger Chinese plan. Somewhere down the line, we will be the losers.”

    This is only a trade deal, not signing the sovereignty of NZ away. If things get out of hand for whatever reasons, e.g. war, abuse of the deal, etc. I’m sure we can close our border, as so does China. A FTA is only good as long as both parties respect it.

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  40. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    China has a free trade deal with Tibet where there seems to be a shortage of monks.

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  41. DAFT (52 comments) says:

    Having been on a fact finding mission, to Beijing late in 2006, for DAFT, I find all this rhetoric about trade with China interesting. 1.4 billion *choose* to live there. They make damn good food. Maoism, Taoism, I Ching and chess….
    The DAFT Party Salutes China. We have given our endorsement of an event that will be happening on the 19th, it is called: Hooray for China!. There will be a Panda Bear picnic in the Sound Shell afterwards, weather permitting, and DAFT will put on a few dozen beers, (if someone brings a car).

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  42. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    DAFT – Will Chinese Tanks be in attendance?

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  43. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    The phase in by 2020 is the same as for the Oz-USA deal.

    It relates to the original APEC goal of free trade within all of APEC by 2020.

    We have that with Oz (CER), Singapore, Brunei, Chile and will now with China – so it’s on to ASEAN, Korea, Japan, Canada Mexico and then the USA (who might well be last in line, if they come under Obama and or Clinton).

    Actually the original goal included free trade between Canada, USA, Australia and New Zealand by 2010 – but the USA would only give this to Canada (within NAFTA the USA places tariffs on Canadian housing timber imports into the USA and transfers the tarfiffs revenues to competing domestic firms in subsidies – the Canadians don’t actually have fair free trade with the Americans), even Oz has to wait till 2020 for tariffs to phase out.

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  44. Richard (130 comments) says:

    Hahaha, Mr China man walk away from news conference when reporters are rumoured to challenge his cruel position on Tibet? Well done Miss Klark and Mr Gaff, as you just made us the laughing stock of the world. But what’s new, only last year George B laughed at Lemon Face.

    What’s the Republic of NZ Party’s postion on the FTA d4j?

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  45. DAFT (52 comments) says:

    Hopefully not D4J. This is a peaceful celebration, of the Chinese within all of us (usually in our belly’s) (not in a cannibalistic way). Some of us will be wearing panda suits, and we’re hoping to find a dragon costume.

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  46. JSF2008 (422 comments) says:

    Mr Farrar you can have those plumbers in auckland, dont they have squat/drops in china where you watch where you walk.holes in the floor, my wife will love it NOT, and what will our red communist chinese workers get paid ,minimin wage so NZ trade workers,will have to work for $13 to keep their jobs, A REVOLVING GROUP OF 1800 FAITHFUL RED CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY DRONES,IN AND OUT fuck me days , death to our country. But if i was the killer red chinese i would target our IT industry , so shudder , geeks,opps DOOMED GEEKS.
    your jobs are gone before mine,HA HA.

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  47. jafapete (766 comments) says:

    JSF: “1799 new IT workers will put the smart arseholes who hate my engliish out of a job.”

    What’s “engliish”? Surely you’re not claiming to speak English? I thought it was giiberish.

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  48. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    Will the 1800 speak Native English or talk China man gibberish and can I expect to see them selling Tibet souvenirs on street corners?

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  49. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Presumably it’s 1800 workers plus Chinese tourists doing horticultural sector seasonal work (under the sort of deals we have with other nations). Given we are receiving more tourists from there, this will provide a new spare supply of labour to where it is needed, when it is.

    It says the 1800 special access workers will be temporary residents, however I suspect that they will develop English skills while here and then seek skilled worker immigrant status.

    Obviously those who hire the nurses and plumbers are going to need translators (and someone who also understands nursing and plumbing work), and for this to be worth the effort, they will have to hire a group of workers at a time.

    An area not covered by this agreement was discussed here a few weeks back – we have shortages in the construction sector – there could have been a sub-contracting of parts of projects here to Chinese workers (we relieve pressure on our skilled labour shortage and also save some money in the cost of these projects).

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  50. jafapete (766 comments) says:

    SPC: In my part of the world (Mt Eden, tending towards Dominion Rd), there are plenty of businesses which could employ 1800 mandarin speakers, no problems. In fact, I already see entirely Chinese (or East asian) construction crews around the district when I go for a morning walk. There’s one such crew painting a neighbour’s house right at this moment. Want to see the future, come to Auckland!

    Disclaimer: This post should not be taken as in any way a negative comment.

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  51. JSF2008 (422 comments) says:

    Hi jafapete, its been a few days since you abused me, sorry mate 4.00am start today getting tired, ,our new red chinese friends will love you , ps i presume you do a $13 dollar a hour job, could you train our (NEW) kiwi friends you and these commies seem as one, Cheers
    sorry bro for the bad ennglish, didnt atend that nasty eenglish school in queenie st dorkland. jafa
    ps 3.00am start tomorrow myy engliiiish will be wooorse, sorry bro/boss,your the man jafa

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  52. Jack5 (4,786 comments) says:

    Metcalph challenges a comment that the imbalance between China and NZ in size is too great, saying this implies we would therefore have also to turn down trade deals with the EU or the USA because of the size difference between them and us.

    The objection is not to the trade deal, but first to the timing with the mayhem in Tibet, and second to the forced opening of our country to foreigners. This is a first in international trade negotiations. And there is an imbalance of power in the negotiations especially in relation to immigration issues. China has 350 times NZ’s population. And yes it would be just as piss weak to accept forced migration from the EU or the USA! But they wouldn’t ask for it, would they. Note that this is not the first immigration deal under a Labour government. The RSE scheme to bring in Melanesian, Fijian, and Polynesian seasonal workers was suggested to NZ by the World Bank!

    SPC is right! Many or most even of the 1800 workers Red China forces on us will soon seek other avenues to become permanent migrants.

    If Clark, Goff, and Key had been leaders in Britain in the late 1930s they would have come home from Munich with a promise of free trade in our time, and played down the fact they had approved Waffen SS bases in Britain! There’s only two battalions at any one time, would have been their excuse. What a gutless crew.

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  53. mara (744 comments) says:

    I repeat my nevousness about this “deal”. Would I feel the same fear about a deal with the US or the UK? No Probably not. Why not? Ask yourselves!

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  54. jafapete (766 comments) says:

    Sorry JSF if I caused offence. Meant in jest.

    And I actually did visit the Shaolin Temple one time, speaking of such… and the last temple as you ascend is the temple of humility, so I got the priest there to say a prayer for me, and you can work out for yourselves whether we would get a lot of benefit from a Shaolin Temple in NZ.

    And, If I worked out what I am paid by the hour, it probably would come in somewhere near the minimum wage, more fool me.

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  55. Letterman (184 comments) says:

    Metcalfe said:

    “150 Martial Arts Coaches? Are they planning on establishing a Shaolin Temple here or something?”

    I am still pissing myself laughing – what a classic line!

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  56. jafapete (766 comments) says:

    # mara Add karma Subtract karma +0 Says: April 7th, 2008 at 8:42 pm “I repeat my nevousness about this “deal”. Would I feel the same fear about a deal with the US or the UK? No Probably not. Why not? Ask yourselves!”

    Racism?

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  57. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    jaffapet, do the US and UK have mobile human slaughterhouses you communist creep?

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  58. jafapete (766 comments) says:

    D4J: “jaffapet, do the US and UK have mobile human slaughterhouses you communist creep?”

    Yes, D4J, they’re called armies.

    Actually, that was too easy.

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  59. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    New Zealand will regret this day in the years to come.

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  60. Inventory2 (10,162 comments) says:

    There seems to be a communication gap between Peter Brown & Winston Peters

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2008/04/memo-to-peter-brown-open-mouth-remove.html

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  61. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    dad4justice
    ““Did you see “brokeback mountain” on TV1 last night?’ – What no demerits ?”

    Hall monitor – that’s a big he stole my ball demerit in anyone’s books.

    as for

    “do the US and UK have mobile human slaughterhouses you communist creep?”

    Actually the US have been investigating in mobile death chambers for states whom don’t want to invest in the infrastructure of death. There was a very disturbing documentary on it last year some time.

    To all those who say this is bad, did you not see the Lord ‘someone or other’ from the UK saying that this is gold for NZ, as UK companies will come to NZ and use our (democratic free social justice values) as a place to base while trading with the Chinese. Sounds like a bloody good idea to me and makes sense.

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  62. metcalph (1,397 comments) says:

    The objection is not to the trade deal, but first to the timing with the mayhem in Tibet,

    So you would rather ask the Chinese to delay the FTA (which was negotiated before the recent Tibetan blowup) until things cool down? I reckon they would be far more likely to scrap the entire deal for our effrontry.

    and second to the forced opening of our country to foreigners.

    If this is reference to the migrants, then a) it’s voluntary and b) we have similar deals with other countries. The pacific islands and the Netherlands spring to mind.

    And there is an imbalance of power in the negotiations especially in relation to immigration issues. China has 350 times NZ’s population.

    And they are sending what? 1500 workers to work at New Zealand wages. Surely this is better than having them cooped up in a factory working for $1 an hour or through forced labour.

    The RSE scheme to bring in Melanesian, Fijian, and Polynesian seasonal workers was suggested to NZ by the World Bank!

    Until we get off of fat arses to pick fruit what’s wrong with having the Islanders in? They don’t mind and the money they earn is worth as much if not more to their country than the foreign aid we would have to send them if they weren’t working here. Furthermore I note that the Samoans actually have a legal claim to be citizens of this country.

    Many or most even of the 1800 workers Red China forces on us will soon seek other avenues to become permanent migrants.

    And to do so they must leave the country as cunningly specified in the FTA.

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  63. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    and while we are playing the hall monitor game,

    “Will the 1800 speak Native English or talk China man gibberish ” 100 citizen of the planet demerits for blatant racism.

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  64. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    Paul – whatever you jellyfish. Play the old racism card, yawn, yawn, this place is rapidly depreciating into a collection of communist cockroaches who are mentally deranged and incapable of thought patterns outside what is contained in a little red book. New Zealand has plummeted into a land of spineless socialist wimps and I expect the exodus to really crank up now our political Dumbo’s who have sold our soul to the yellow panda.

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  65. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    and once again our beloved Dad has shown the perils of placing one deranged racist (add any of your other social ills to this list) and a keyboard in the same place at the same time.

    I was not the one playing the racism card dad, I was pointing out your racism. It’s not that hard a concept to gather is it???

    Dad National will be kicking themselves that they weren’t the ones who created this deal. At least David had the intelligence and decency to give Kudos where due to Goff and Clark over this deal.

    Every single Chinese person I met in Vancouver and Hong Kong last year had more grasp on reality and acted with much greater dignity that you have ever demonstrated here.

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  66. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    Paul – you are a disgrace to the honour, integrity, values and principles of democracy. How we could broker a deal with a country with such a savage attitude towards human lives is beyond my understanding. You make me sick you creep.

    Edit – I have NO MORE to say on the shameful signing !!

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  67. Jack5 (4,786 comments) says:

    Metcalf writes:” So you would rather ask the Chinese to delay the FTA (which was negotiated before the recent Tibetan blowup) until things cool down? I reckon they would be far more likely to scrap the entire deal for our effrontry.”

    What a bloody wimp. Take the crumbs now in case they are swept away!

    Then on the forced acceptance of migrants he writes:”We have similar deals with other countries. The Pacific Islands and the Netherlands spring to mind.”

    But the Islands ad the Netherlands didn’t hold a pistol like a possible free trade agreement to our heads. And it’s stupid to argue we agreed to the clause. It’s the same sort of agreement Chamberlain made in Munich — in this case under the duress of not getting falling tariffs for our exports.

    Metcalf says bringing in the Red Chinese will “Surely this is better than having them cooped up in a factory working for $1 an hour or through forced labour.” Well Metcalf, bring in the whole bloody 1400 million!

    Metcalf defends the RSE scheme for Melanesian and Polynesian pickers. Its introduction has been a disaster for scores of orchards and other horitculturists this year. These were the ones too small for the scheme and being deprived of their usual backpaker labour.

    And as for getting off “fat arses” to pick fruit. Not a bad idea if we slash the vast bureaucracy in Wellington and get them and the bludgers who live off them out into the country. But that would be a bit Pol Pot-ish wouldn’t it?

    How come some business sectors can get cheap imported labour, but not others. Why not bring in tens of thousands of white collar workers from India, and economists, and bankers, and accountants, lawyers, PR magicians, who will give us services at a lower price?

    No matter how you spin it Metcalf, bending to China’s demand to accept 1800 workers is cowardly and astonishing.

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  68. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “Edit – I have NO MORE to say on the shameful signing”

    Did you have anything to say in the first place.

    You are of course able to say you disagree with the deal, but the ramblings and metal acrobatics that you use to get there are alarming.

    There are of course many many issues that we should find disturbing about trading with the Chinese, but as we are already trading (and also manufacturing) with and in China, then what is wrong with doing it so that we are able to make money out of it on a more even keel.

    Human rights aside (Dad what is a compete denial of Human Rights than Guantanamo Bay, or torture in friendly foreign nations, or the invasion of a sovering nation against the will of the majority of the free world resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths), WE ARE ALREADY TRADING WITH THEM.

    How many “Made in China” articles of clothing or toys for your kids are in your house right now?

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  69. NoCash (256 comments) says:

    Jack5 – “Bending to China’s demand for entry of its workers is cowardly and astonishing.”

    While Kiwis can already work freely (relatively speaking) in China as long as they can find a job there. 1800 Chinese workers are not a big number and we still have the final say as who we let in or not. The 1800 is really a max quota under a new visa category. I bet we already have more than 1800 Kiwis working long term in China right now.

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  70. reid (16,074 comments) says:

    The fact is, China and SE Asia is our future, the US and Europe is the past. The US is in the same state in 2008 as GB was in 1908. History repeats, and just as the 20th was the US’ century, the 21st is China’s. So we have to deal with it, and maybe this FTA isn’t perfect, but China isn’t leaving this region, quite the opposite. And she will be huge. Her growth has not even reached the end of the beginning. By 2020 she will be the biggest economy in the world, unless there is a war.

    If we walked away from the FTA, would we be better off? So what if China is not behaving entirely as we would like – should we treat that as a show-stopper? What would be achieved by that?

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  71. Jack5 (4,786 comments) says:

    No Cash writes: “Kiwis can already work freely (relatively speaking) in china as long as they can find a job there.”

    Well they can work freely in the Sudan and probably Afghanistan and Mali, too, if they can jobs. The pressure is usually from low-wage economies to high wage one. It’s not an even trade, especially when one country has 4 million people and the other nearly 1400 million.

    Reid writes: “China and S.E. Asia is (sic) our future, the US and Europe is (sic) in the past.”

    That’s similar to what a certain mustachioed guy shouted at Nuremberg about his country about 70 years ago. It ended in bombed ruins and a smaller country, that was split for 40 years.

    China may again become the biggest economy in the world, as it was previously for well over a thousand years. But that didn’t give it world dominance in trade. And it didn’t stop the Mongols galloping in and taking over (and later the Manchu). Mongolia and Manchuria had tiny economies like NZ. Perhaps, Reid, the future of China is NZ!

    Then there’s India hot on China’s heels. It isn’t trying to force us to take workers, and I doubt it ever will. But I will welcome Indians here as much as Chinese who come as normal migrants.

    The point is what is an immigration requirement doing in a FTA? Do we want close ties with a country that demands this?

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  72. DAFT (52 comments) says:

    DAFT has just released it’s own FTA policy.

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  73. francis (712 comments) says:

    Wow, what a bunch of spew. From all sides. And incoherent spew, at that.

    Why is it that so many assholes on the internet reveal themselves through illiteracy? DEFECATE, not DEFACATE. Christ, it’s your “joke” get it right.

    And this: “Yes, D4J, they’re called armies.” WTF is the MATTER with you? Mad cow disease? Some genetic malformation?

    And “our effrontry” — what? The economic imbalance necessitates a position of moral servitude?

    And what the hell is wrong with 1800 new workers in a country where everyone who wants a job already has one? Hardly scabs, these, no sincure-busting going on.

    If the quality of thought on this thread were at all indicative of the actual value of NZ … well, it’s no wonder we can’t stop our plunge into the third world.

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  74. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Why is it that so many assholes on the internet reveal themselves through illiteracy?”

    Dunno really, but its ‘sinecure’, and you should never start a sentence with ‘And’.

    Plunge on.

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  75. Nichlemn (63 comments) says:

    How many of those on the right here would be attacking this if National was in power and signed it now? Pure partisanship. At least DPF is almost always willing to applaud policy (and the politicians who propose it) if he agrees with it, regardless of the partisan affiliations involved. But unfortunately he’s a rarity. All we hear now is scaremongering about the “commies” and their apparent world domination plans.

    And can we really complain about “getting the raw end”? Christ, you people would probably complain if Labour announced no-strings-attached 15% cuts in every tax bracket because they didn’t go far enough. You can’t expect every deal to be as good as it can possibly be. And it’s really irrelevant if China gets more than NZ does in this and that because trade isn’t a zero sum game. NZ isn’t worse off if China’s concessions are far less than ours, except possibly for being able to negotiate more in the future.

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  76. dad4justice (7,926 comments) says:

    “How many of those on the right here would be attacking this if National was in power and signed it now?’

    Firstly, National are not from the right. They are centre fence sitters that enjoy the socialist rort of corruption that New Zealand has become. Enjoy your holiday Mr Connell !
    Secondly if anybody thinks that ONLY 1800 people will be coming then I suggest you book yourself into a clinic and have an immediate lobotomy. Miss Hell Klark assures us all this is not a matter to worry about, however this psychotic lemon can’t distinguish if a motorcade is traveling at 18 kms/hr or 180kms/hr.
    I am shamed to be called a kiwi as I shudder at what kind of sick country has anything to do with such a cruel regime?

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  77. clintheine (1,568 comments) says:

    Rogernome, awfully glad you reprinted what I guessed was a pathetic attempt by Danyl to be funny…. what it had to do with the topic at hand os beyond me but you didn’t get any demerit points for it so I guess it’s open season on this thread too then.

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  78. Pascal (2,015 comments) says:

    “How many of those on the right here would be attacking this if National was in power and signed it now?’

    I would be. Whilst I agree the bottomline on this deal is good – it will mean a reasonable income boost for New Zealand – I also do not believe that we should have signed a free trade agreement with China. One does not shift your principles aside just because you’ll make a few more bucks.

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  79. jafapete (766 comments) says:

    Francis says, “Why is it that so many assholes on the internet reveal themselves through illiteracy?” and then goes on to answer his or her rhetorical question in the affirmative with, “no sincure-busting going on.”

    Oh Spelling Wiz, do you perhaps mean, “Sinecure… 2. Any office or position which has no work or duties attached to it, esp. one which yields some stipend or emolument”, as the OED puts it?

    Edit: I see Redbaited got there before me with the correction. But Redbaited, it is okay to start a sentence with “And”, especially on a blog.

    BTW, “armies” are merely well-organised groups of trained killers, in case you hadn’t noticed. They also tend to be very mobile, for what I would have thought were obvious reasons. Hence you could argue that the U.S. in particular has sent its mobile slaughterhouse to Iraq. The locals there seem to think so.

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  80. Craig Ranapia (1,915 comments) says:

    How many of those on the right here would be attacking this if National was in power and signed it now? Pure partisanship.

    I don’t see my scepticism gland going into hibernation following a change of government, Nichlemn. Sorry. I support free trade, but I find it ever so slightly ironic that to many on the right this treaty has become the equivalent of ‘climate change’ on the left — God help you if you dare suggest the emperor might just be a little under-dressed.

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  81. Insolent Prick (417 comments) says:

    Wouldn’t it be a fascinatingly ironic consequence of the investment clauses in the FTA with China, that New Zealanders can sell their Auckland Airport shares to Chinese investors, but not to Canadians!

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  82. Jack5 (4,786 comments) says:

    The Christchurch Press this morning reports on its front page: “Goff said New Zealand negotiators had come under pressure from China to provide for the movement of workers across borders.”

    And Clark, Goff, and even Key bowed to the Commies on that! Shame.

    All political candidates from now on should be X-rayed to ensure they have a backbone. That might prevent such craven crawling in future.

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  83. Richard Hurst (781 comments) says:

    The Christchurch Press full report said:

    “Goff said New Zealand negotiators had come under pressure from China to provide for the movement of workers across borders.
    He described the move to allow some movement as “a modest gesture” that would have no impact on the employment of Kiwis.
    “I don’t think there will be a problem. The 85,000 people currently in New Zealand (on temporary work visas) come from all round the globe,” he said.”

    Lets see…1800 added onto 85,000 who already work here from all over the world….I wouldn’t describe that as ‘bowing’ to China.

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  84. Jack5 (4,786 comments) says:

    Plus 1000 on working holidays a year, and this isn’t an exchange arrangement as we have with Britain, France, the US, Japan, Argentina, and several other countries. This is one way. The Chinese can come here for working holidays, but Kiwis can’t go there.

    But what counts is the principle. The Chinese demanded we take their citizens. Clark and Goff, with Key going along, bent to this. China will now use this to force its citizens on other countries seeking trade agreements.

    Hurst and others supporting this cowardice keep hammering that “1800″ (at one time) won’t make much difference. That’s what Chamberlain said about Czechoslovakia. Totalitarian bullies are like blackmailers: they come back for more.

    Our leaders have sold out to Red China on the right of a country to decide who it accepts over its borders. Shame!

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  85. WebWrat (516 comments) says:

    Richard Hurst:

    “Lets see…1800 added onto 85,000 who already work here from all over the world….I wouldn’t describe that as ‘bowing’ to China.”

    I doubt the 1800 will be doing the Stop/Go signs on the road or working in fish ‘n chip shops. Wouldn’t they be more likely to get preferential jobs?

    How much is this bowing, scraping and sucking up to the Chinese going to erode our own democracy?

    Do you remember the bus getting parked in front of the protesters so the Chinese delegation couldn’t see them?

    Or the Chinese/Kiwi journalist getting booted out of interviews with the Chinese delegation?

    I worked in China for over a year and found heaps of fantastic Chinese people that were extremely hard working, hospitable and I am proud to call them my friends.

    On the other hand I also struck Chinese that would ask you lots of political questions and watch you all the time, always on the lookout for something to go and tell the man with the red star on his hat. These were the types that would shop their own granny in the ’60′s (and now?) to score ‘brownie’ points.

    Which of the two groups will the 1800 ‘workers’ be chosen from? Hmmmm?
    Chosen they will be.

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  86. siobhan (278 comments) says:

    As it stands, it sounds like a few GP’s wouldn’t go amiss.

    There are going to be pros and cons to the FTA, however, to read this thread you would think we are back to the “reds under the bed” scaremongering of the 1950′s. Isn’t NZ a little more grown up than that.

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  87. Robert Black (423 comments) says:

    I have lived in China for nearly 7 years and think it is great. The fact is the Western media only portrays mainly negative things about China just as China’s media portrays mainly negative things about USA. In fact, in china you are very free (more so than New Zealand as they don’t have stupid little laws that tax the people) but if you cause serious trouble you will be severely punished. So, they have no rights to protest or complete freedom of speech. Such acts against the government are seen as serious. The leaders feel that with 56 Ethnicities in China there is always a risk that it can break apart just as Russia did. They watched Russia. The people therefore agree that they will forego these rights. Their lives are far better, their economy is better and slowly their civil rights are improving. And as far as Tibet goes, please read some objective history on it rather than jump on the band wagon blindly. You wanna give New Zealand back totally to the Maori population? In a way it is the same thing. The Dalai Lama has not even been to Tibet since he ran away in his teens. His Nobel Peace prize was USA influenced and political. It is a pity that they will destroy the Olympics. I think the world could do with a successful Olympics at this time.

    I think this is a great move by Helen Clarke.

    I have just written a novel on China if you are interested at:

    http://www.bookhabit.com/competition/book_details.php?book_id=181

    Thanks for listening.

    Robert Black.

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  88. JSF2008 (422 comments) says:

    ROBERT whoever i disagree, where do you want your body parts sent to , sorry robert you seem to have gone native,you seem so chinese , robert a strange name for a chinese

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  89. Robert Black (423 comments) says:

    To comment on China negatively when you have never lived there is like a Chinese person commenting negatively on New Zealand when they have never lived there. Unobjective, unwise.

    “Gone native”?

    Not really. Western people naturally tend to think in Western ways. Eastern people naturally tend to think in Eastern ways. When you live in the opposite cultures and survive the 6 steps or so of culture shock you begin to think in both ways, utilising the best of both. This is wisdom of the world and objectivity.

    New Zealand people have a tendency to be a bit close minded, judgmental and conservative. Say, compared to Australians.Traditionally a farming country with small town farming attitudes immersed into the culture and population. I grew up on a farm in small town NZ. Suspicion of strangers that rolled into town and so on.

    Helen Clarke can certainly think outside the square. So again, I applaud her as I think most intelligent, objective wise Kiwis do. We need more open minded people in New Zealand. My second book is called The Control Sickness, deals withy these issues.

    No, I am not Chinese, so well done for deducing that.

    Thanks for listening and thanks for your comments. I am happy to reply to them anytime.

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  90. Richard Hurst (781 comments) says:

    WebWrat and Jack5:

    WW:
    “I doubt the 1800 will be doing the Stop/Go signs on the road or working in fish ‘n chip shops. Wouldn’t they be more likely to get preferential jobs? ”

    OMG, of course WebWrat! The point is to fill skilled, specialised jobs that we can’t fill!!! Please become a little informed before you post a comment. There would be an uproar if we were bringing them in to do unskilled jobs!

    Jack5:
    “The Chinese can come here for working holidays, but Kiwis can’t go there.”

    (cough, cough) er, Jack how many NZer’s do you think, will be jumping onto a plane to go work in a Chinese factory for a few dollars a day??? How demand do you think there is for that??? Again, please become a least a bit informed become posting, or at least pause to think.

    Robert Black: good comment, very interesting.

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