Today’s Middle East post

January 11th, 2009 at 11:16 am by David Farrar

First we have some nice photos from the Auckland protest, equating with Nazi Germany.

protest1

Oh a nice professional sign comparing Israel’s response to 10,000 rockets to Nazi death camps where Jews were gassed, and their possessions looted.

protest2

While this protester gets marks for his home made sign.

Ironically I suspect that if WWII was occuring today, they would be demanding Churchill be placed on trial, for an unacceptably high civilian death toll in Germany.

Anyway once again I am pleased to quote Chris Trotter. Chris explains why so many on the left support liberation movements:

A fairly substantial chunk of the New Zealand Left would echo Keith’s view. In part this is because a great many leftists see Israel as the primary instrument of “US imperialism” in the – making the Palestinian cause one of the World’s last great unresolved struggles for national liberation.


For leftists of Keith’s generation, people who came of age in the early-1960s, when the empires of the European powers were being challenged by a multitude of national liberation movements, the anti-colonial struggle was something to be supported wholeheartedly and unequivocally.

Even more exciting for these young leftists was the fact that most liberation movements espoused some variant of the socialist ideology, and many enjoyed the backing (overt or covert) of the Soviet Union and/or the Peoples Republic of China.

National liberation struggles and the socialist revolution seemed inextricably linked.
Except of course when it came to liberation movements to free countries under Soviet control!
is anything but secular and quasi-socialist, and its dedication to the elimination not only of Israel, but of the entire Jewish people, is unequivocal. In the words of its own charter:


“The Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree.”

The last time people talked about the Jews in this way, they were wearing brown shirts and jackboots. And the fate they had planned for the Jewish people gave new meaning to the word “disproportionate”.
And this is not some anicent centuries old text, this is the Hamas charter.
Which is why I find it so hard to respond with any degree of positivity to Keith Locke’s call for New Zealand to stand up and be counted among the outspoken opponents of what is happening in Gaza.


Were Hamas a secular and socialist organisation dedicated to the creation of a secular and socialist state of Palestine: a state where all those with an historical and/or religious attachment to the Holy Land; Jews and Arabs, the followers of Judaism, Islam and Christianity – all the people of the Book – could live together in peace and harmony; well, then I might feel differently.

But it isn’t.
also writes today on this issue:

There was twit-nit Catholic priest Gerard Burns daubing his blood over a peace monument, bizarro MP Keith Locke accusing Israel of war crimes, and sundry radio commentators giving full voice to anti-Semitic outrage.

All followed a simple maxim, straight out of Animal Farm: Israel wrong, Palestinians right.

Indeed.

Almost without exception, liberals accept that the Israelis are the baddies. They are the ones with the fighter planes, helicopter gunships and tanks tearing through the ghettoes of Gaza. As John Minto opined this past week they are the primary aggressor. Ipso facto, they are morally inferior.

The truth is considerably different. The Gaza Strip is a territory controlled by an Islamic fundamentalist faction that has sworn to wipe Israel from the planet. It has been doing its best by launching rockets at Jewish settlements, arming and directing suicide bombers, and ending the uneasy ceasefire.

Yep, they are delighted that they finally got Israel to respond.

The only problem is that Hamas are not freedom fighters. In fact, they are not even sane. They are religious fanatics. Fundamentalist nutters armed with guns, rocket-propelled grenades and rockets. Their idea of a Palestinian state is one that eradicates Israel. They emerged victors after a bloody civil war with the Fatah party in 2006 killing plenty of innocent civilians themselves and now consider that Hamas is the frontline in the fight against the infidel.

Yet these are the people that Minto, the Greens, the Catholic fringe and Kiwi liberals seek to embrace.

The UN has got it right (this time). They have called for both sides to stop fighting. But the Greens and Minto want Israel to unilaterally stop, and nothing to be done about the rocket attacks from Hamas.

This is not to suggest that Israeli actions over these past 60 years meet any antipodean morality test either. There have been inhumane actions and outrageous abuses. But not this time: not in Gaza in 2009. Israel is responding as any nation would were it under continual military harassment.

This is quite right. Israel bashers can’t tell the difference between the times when their actions have been outrageous, and legitimately responding to Hamas and their rocket attacks.

The death of innocents in Gaza is regrettable it is sad and it is wrong. But all the more so for being orchestrated by Hamas, in pursuit of their despicable ends.

And this could all end is Hamas will agree to cease the rocket attacks.

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156 Responses to “Today’s Middle East post”

  1. billyborker (1,102 comments) says:

    “And this could all end is Hamas will agree to cease the rocket attacks.”

    Or would never have started if Israel withdrew to pre 1967 borders. Or would never have started if Israel had not imposed a blockade on Gaza as soon as Hammas won the elections. Or if Israel recognised Palestine, something it resolutly refuses to do.

    [DPF: Hamas have sworn to destroy Israel, regardless of if it withdraws to 1967 borders, recognises Palestine or any of the above]

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  2. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    Never thought I would say it, but well done Chris T!

    Looking at the SST amongst calls for “Free Palestine” at the protest which is fair enough came chants of “Infitada”. So these peaceniks are still looking for Israeli and Jewish blood on the floor.

    The left always call for protection of their right to protest yet it is reported that the crowd harrassed an Israel supporter, ripped her flag off her and then tore it to pieces calling her a “terrorist” and “coward”. They then tied the parts of the flag around their shoes to tread on it. Imagine doing this to a Palestinian support and flag?

    The left is covering the truth, creating hate and doing nothing to resolve the situation.

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  3. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    Blliyborker your as mad as Minto. Try reading some actual history and understanding the wider situation before spilling out left wing propaganda.

    Are you aware Hamas as probably killed more Fatah members in the last 3 years than the current war has claimed? Chucking your opposition off rooftops, executing them without trial and permanently handicapping them is the sign of sane Govt?

    You rally against this behaviour in other dictatorships yet see Hamas as angels.

    How come Hamas has called for Israel to agree to the new ceasefire conditions, but that Hamas will have the right to continue bombing Israel?

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  4. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    I glad to see that at last some of the MSM (Chris Trotter, David Cohen) are reffering to, and quoting from the HAMAS Charter (Covenant). To understand what HAMAS are about and what they want, you have to read this document.

    This is not a war over land, it is a religeous war. And if we in the west are not careful, we will be the means by which HAMAS achieves its ultimate goal – the complete distruction of the jewish people.

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  5. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Are you aware Hamas as probably killed more Fatah members in the last 3 years than the current war has claimed? Chucking your opposition off rooftops, executing them without trial and permanently handicapping them is the sign of sane Govt?

    Yeh but what about vice-versa SR? Do you know about that or are you just ignoring it for convenience?

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  6. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    …HAMAS achieves its ultimate goal – the complete distruction of the jewish people.

    Yeh but what about the fact that while Hamas may have that written in its charter it doesn’t mean its anything more than a negotiating position, if it were ever asked to negotiate. Point is, Lucy, no-one has ever asked them to negotiate, ever since they were elected. Never. Ever. Doesn’t that strike you as just a teeny bit peculiar in the context of what’s happened since then.

    [DPF: You are wrong. There have been dozens of attempts to get them change their charter. You are flat out lying when you say there has been no attempt. Various UN and EU statements over time have called on them to amend their charter, to allow relations to be normalised. Hamas has refused each and every time. Did you know their covenant actually slams peaceful solutions as being in contradiction to their principles?]

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  7. kiki (425 comments) says:

    Read a book once that explained that most of the survivors from the nazi holocaust were the younger ones who witnessed the results of following rules. Their elders who were bought up with the idea that the rule of law should prevail lined up and registered when asked, went to the ghettos as ordered and boarded the trains as told. International law was worthless and following rules only ended in death. The young ones left fought and some escaped from places such as the polish ghettos. These people went on to Israel and into it’s government and took with them their known reality of international law.

    As much as I support the return of land to it’s rightful owners, Rwanda is a fine example of the international communities response to genocide and in the end there is often only life or death. As the Jews aren’t big on the after life as Christians and Moslems are I suspect that they will do anything to prevent a repeat of past history. Hezbollah know this that’s why they’re not exactly rushing to attack it’s northern border.

    As for those protesters as most are white or Arabic in descent why don’t they piss of back to their homeland and stop occupying the Maori homeland. My part 128th Ngāti Raukawa allows me such privilege

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  8. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    Reid, Reid, Reid you poor misguided chap/chapett. The HAMAS Charter was not written as a document for ‘negotiation’ it is the founding document that defines the existance of HAMAS. (You havent read it have you?)It is the same as the Americans Declaration of independance are you seriously saying that someone should say now listen chaps we know that this is your founding document but we want to negotiate a few of the articles in it?

    Get real!

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  9. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    Reid agreeing a ceasefire with Hamas is like putting Graeme Burton out of parole again. He might say all the right things, but you just know its going to turn ugly.

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  10. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    If anyone should know Gaza and Hamas it’s BBC reporter Alan Johnston who was held hostage there in 2007. He just did a balanced bit on BBC Newsnight’ The Gaza Crisis’. (Only available I the UK online). He says “For Israel it’s simply about protecting it’s citizens from rocket fire”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00gnjwz/Newsnight_09_01_2009/
    here’s a link to a less recent report from him.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7815263.stm

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  11. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    Lucy I think Reid fails to understand the fundamentals. Even the Koran has multiple versions as conflicting parts that discussed the conversion/death/forgiveness of Jews have been removed. Many parts of the Koran will have sections that cancel out the previous eg all Jews are infidel and then the next section will say but they are people of the book so leave them be.

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  12. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Get real!

    I always have been and continue to be real, Lucy. I don’t do fantasy. What about this, don’t you get?

    Israel gives back Gaza and allows free elections. Hamas gets elected. WH is shocked, completely unexpected, it was fully expecting to deal only with Fatah and Abbas. Furthermore, Hamas-Iran connections are a security risk. What about the fact Hamas is an elected govt with many arms, not just terrorism? Who cares? Rice puts up Quartet Agreement on a take-it-or-leave-it basis with a short-to-impossible timeframe within which to respond. Israel restricts imports of all kinds into Gaza. Israel closes Gaza borders. Israel invades.

    Who’s kidding whom here, Lucy. You think Gaza 09 isn’t the end-game of a plan to install Fatah in Gaza? That’s what this is all about.

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  13. getstaffed (9,186 comments) says:

    Reid, I find your views balanced and well considered in virtually every area of comment on this blog… save this one. I just can’t understand your myopia here. You seem to believe that Hamas’s actions are permissible (and Israel’s are inexcusable) because no one has asked Hamas to be nice?!? Incredible!

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  14. LUCY (359 comments) says:

    You are right Southern Raider. Reid does not understand even the fundamentals and I dont debate with numptys so bye bye Reid.

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  15. getstaffed (9,186 comments) says:

    Israel closes Gaza borders. Israel invades.

    I think you left out the preceding observations about Hamas murdering their political opponents, abandoning any Fatah/Israel peace agreements and commencing the indiscriminant rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.

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  16. Lance (2,634 comments) says:

    Did anyone notice that protesters in NZ were throwing their SHOES at the AMERICAN consulate because they didn’t like what ISREAL was doing?

    What a bunch of friggin loonies.

    Also (as pointed out by DPF) they exercise their right to protest and their want of peace by attacking a lone supporter of Israel to suppress that person’s point of view.

    Violent hypocrites acting as loonies. Fuck what a combination

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  17. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Reid does not understand even the fundamentals

    Anything except respond to the facts eh Lucy? Read that article, go on, I dare you.

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  18. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    Reid Gaza still has a border with Eygpt so why does it matter what Israel restricts as anything they need can still come through there.

    As you state Hamas is the Govt in Gaza not just a terrorist organisation hence Israel is well within its rights and that of any other country to go to war against them.

    Hamas’s charter isn’t like an intention statement for your local ladies sewing club. It is almost a religous belief and their reason for forming and existing. It is like expecting a Christian to renounce Jesus.

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  19. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    Throught that Cathlics had done the decent thing on Friday with an apology in the paper. Now we find out it was a hoax. So rather than coming out with a real statement of apology they spend all their effort distancing themselves from the hoax letter.

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  20. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    Reid some examples of the people you are hoping Israel will deal with

    “Last week, hardline Iranian student groups had asked the government to authorize volunteers to carry out suicide bombings in Israel in support of Hamas. The students began signing up after Khamenei issued a religious decree on Dec. 28 saying anyone killed while defending Palestinians in Gaza against Israeli attacks would be considered a martyr.”

    and from the leader of Hamas

    “He went on to say that the group would not “agree to negotiations on a truce while Israel continues to attack us. First of all, [Israel] must stop firing and leave Gaza, and after that we can speak about a truce as we have in the past.” He added that Hamas was “coming to every discussion with an open mind.”

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  21. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    That’s right Getstaffed, theres something about reids history where 7,500 rocket and mortar attacks on Sderot and Ashkelon since 2005, and the various suicide bomb attacks over the same period appears to have slipped his mind

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  22. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    The Hamas Charter is the founding document of a resistance movement formed after Baruch Goldstein took a machine gun and killed 29 Muslims at prayer in the Ibrahimi Mosque, wounding another 150.

    The Israeli Stern gang made similar threats:
    “Neither Jewish ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat. We are very far from having any moral qualms as far as our national war goes. We have before us the command of the Torah, whose morality surpasses that of any other body of laws in the world: “Ye shall blot them out to the last man.” But first and foremost, terrorism is for us a part of the political battle being conducted under the present circumstances, and it has a great part to play: speaking in a clear voice to the whole world, as well as to our wretched brethren outside this land, it proclaims our war against the occupier. We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all.”

    Few political movements do not have their origins in violent revolt against either corruption or power elites.

    Many forget that Israel fostered Hamas because it suited them to have a loony fundamentalist group with which to characterise the resistance to their occupation.

    Hamas defied their objective by evolving into a bona fide, secular political movement and becoming the democratically elected Government of the Palestinian people.

    There is a basic dishonesty involved in waving the twenty-year old Hamas Charter around and ignoring recent statements such as this by Khalid Mish’al, head of the political bureau of Hamas:

    Our message to the Israelis is this: we do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion “the people of the book” who have a covenant from God and His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) to be respected and protected. Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us – our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people.

    We shall never recognise the right of any power to rob us of our land and deny us our national rights. We shall never recognise the legitimacy of a Zionist state created on our soil in order to atone for somebody else’s sins or solve somebody else’s problem. But if you are willing to accept the principle of a long-term truce, we are prepared to negotiate the terms. Hamas is extending a hand of peace to those who are truly interested in a peace based on justice.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/31/comment.israelandthepalestinians

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  23. goodgod (1,348 comments) says:

    The left is covering the truth, creating hate and doing nothing to resolve the situation.

    Since no one in NZ will have to put their body were their mouth is on this issue, the above statement is the only and most important point to made.

    We must not let our country be divided and turned into an ethnic battlefield by any one.

    We have everything to lose and not a jot to gain.

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  24. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    Spoff good work at selective quoting. You missed out the part where Khalid Mish’al went on to say that although they have no problem with Jews they do with the existance of Israel. Therefore move out to other countries and we will not kill Jews, but if you stay in Israel you are fair game.

    You also fail to mention that the Stern Gang etc were not part of the ruling Zionist federation in Israel and were condemned as a finge and dangerous group by many trying to form the state of Israel. The members of these Jewish rebels would have numbered well less than 1,000 and they were never the elected Govt of a state.

    Hamas aren’t acting as a interest group. They are an elected Govt and therefore have declared war on Israel.

    Yes the evolution of many organisations starts in resistance, but then they mature and become more pragmatic especially when elected to Govt. Hamas has never changed and never will.

    Someone brough up the IRA example. They were never the elected Govt of Northern Ireland. If they had of been England would have been justified in going to war. Now that the IRA members are part of an elected Govt do you still see them calling for the death of England and chucking boms around?

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  25. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    When has anyone on the left ever had to defend their country? They cower under their beds and make bold statements directed at other nations from the safety created for them by the self less acts of our fathers and grandfathers.

    They should be ashamed of themselves, but no tomorrow will bring a new day and other ill conceived letter to the editor written from a safe distance of 10,000’s km from what life is really like for some people.

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  26. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    SR “They cower under their beds” Hey fuck head, go fuck yourself!

    You are becoming the most loathsome character on the whole NZ blogosphere.

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  27. goodgod (1,348 comments) says:

    Southern Raider scores direct hit. ;) :lol:

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  28. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    reid; “Doesn’t that strike you as just a teeny bit peculiar in the context of what’s happened since then”

    On the 3rd December 2008, a senior Hamas leader, Osama Hamdan addressed a rally in Beirut in which he compared the Hezbollah ‘victory in Lebanon in 2006’ with the upcoming Gaza conflict.
    Doesn’t that strike you as a teeny bit coincidental?

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  29. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    SR.

    You missed out the part where Khalid Mish’al went on to say that although they have no problem with Jews they do with the existance of Israel.

    I rather think this covers it don’t you.

    “We shall never recognise the right of any power to rob us of our land and deny us our national rights. We shall never recognise the legitimacy of a Zionist state created on our soil in order to atone for somebody else’s sins or solve somebody else’s problem. But if you are willing to accept the principle of a long-term truce, we are prepared to negotiate the terms. Hamas is extending a hand of peace to those who are truly interested in a peace based on justice.”

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  30. Gulag Archipelago (146 comments) says:

    The looney left demonstrating their inability to think logically by their partiality to Palestinians.

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  31. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Fruitloop from Linwood uses “becoming ” – meaning he’s already got the title

    Did you come out from under your bed for a peek Paul?

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  32. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    Hi Paul,

    Now you know what it feels like to live in Sderot. Apparently those daily rockets are just an annoyance and Israel has no right to retaliate.

    Yet you dropped a nucluer bomb over one comment.

    I guess you were half way through your next letter to the editor when you read my comment?

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  33. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    Paul I see the photo on your website. Just a shame you wouldn’t use such forcefull language if it was a Jewish child.

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  34. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    Also Paul I hear the residents of Wainoni have declared independence and will soon be starting terrorist acts against Linwood. Might be time to reinforce that bed.

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  35. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    Does this make me now worse than PhilU, Jastown and the Standard?

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  36. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    OMG – white boomer grey balding pony tailed twats. And I just bet there a few bone carvings amongst them.

    Lets protest against that nasty black man Mugabe or that nasty Russian man Putin or that nasty geriatric Castro all who have human rights ‘issues’ shall we?

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  37. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # Paul (1309) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    SR “They cower under their beds” Hey fuck head, go fuck yourself!

    You are becoming the most loathsome character on the whole NZ blogosphere.

    What he says is true, so why would he be loathsome for pointing it out? Back in the 30’s a lot of the lefties of that age were prepared to put their life on the line in Spain fighting Franco and his Fascists, but Locke, Minto etc never put on a uniform to fight the Indonesians in Timor despite their atrocities, they will not go to West Papua to defend those people against oppression or volunteer to fight in Dafur or against Mugabe and his destruction of an entire nation.
    Oh sure, they will stand in a protest line, vandalise an item of property or spit and curse at the police, but actually fight? no, that they will not do( some one else would be fine, I am sure), these people lack the courage of their convictions.

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  38. Komata (1,175 comments) says:

    And don’t forget – this whole jolly little circus is scheuduled to open at a place near you! Gaza is only the opening act. The Islamofascist’s avowed intent, openly proclaimed, is to eliminate the West, specifically the countries of the Commonwealth, and even more specifically for us our own dear, very liberal-thinking New Zealand! It’s tempting to wonder what sort of grovelling Locke, Minto and their fellow travellers would do to avoid what would await them under such a scenario, though sadly it would be to no avail – to be western is to die. Interesting thought isn’t it?

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  39. Gulag Archipelago (146 comments) says:

    20,000 Hamas operatives with 20,000 Qassam rockets provoke an 176,500 Israeli army (10,000 deployed}, backed by tanks, artillery and gunboats = 20,000 operatives with suicidal tendencies.

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  40. dad4justice (8,131 comments) says:

    Paul we have been most concerned about your whereabouts, as I thought you were thrown into the Avon.

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  41. bharmer (686 comments) says:

    # Southern Raider (890) Vote: Add rating 3 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    “Throught that Cathlics had done the decent thing on Friday with an apology in the paper. Now we find out it was a hoax. So rather than coming out with a real statement of apology they spend all their effort distancing themselves from the hoax letter.”

    They did by way of Archbishop John Dew’s genuine apology. Gerard Burns is a priest in the Wellington diocese and Archbishop Dew is his ‘boss’. Bishop Dunn is a nice guy, but even if his letter had not been a hoax, he is the bishop of Auckland, and it it would have been as useful as you apologising to the aborigines for the various grievances in Oz.

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  42. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    “176,500 Israeli army (10,000 deployed}, backed by tanks, artillery and gunboats = 20,000 operatives with suicidal tendencies”

    but don’t forget the Hamas ‘whackjob’ reinforcements
    “The student groups claim that more than 70,000 people throughout Iran have registered as volunteer suicide bombers since Israel launched its assault against Hamas-ruled Gaza on Dec. 27”
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g17vMkxq9PE5fEhjqDPVpjI70xxgD95KETBO0

    always amazes me how they seem so outraged about death, yet all seem so keen to bring about their own

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  43. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    Patrick Starr (1279) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
    but don’t forget the Hamas ‘whackjob’ reinforcements
    “The student groups claim that more than 70,000 people throughout Iran have registered as volunteer suicide bombers since Israel launched its assault against Hamas-ruled Gaza on Dec. 27”
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g17vMkxq9PE5fEhjqDPVpjI70xxgD95KETBO0

    always amazes me how they seem so outraged about death, yet all seem so keen to bring about their own”

    It also shows their lack of edumication. Israel is estimated to have some 500 nuclear weapons, some of which are on ballistic missiles, as such Israel cannot be defeated, its as simple as that. All of this asymmetric warfare/terrorism can never achieve Israel’s destruction, but then Iran et al knows this, as does every other government on the planet. It must be about something else and that something probably has to do with the spread of Islam (directed by Iran, Iran hopes, naturally) or gaining sympathy for it via useful fools such as Minto and Locke thereby gaining the influence and power they crave by that means, as they lack most conventional means.
    Such activities aimed at Israel by Islamic nations also have the benefit of distracting their populations from their own troubles, of which their are many and shoring up their own rule.

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  44. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    Komata it would almost be like one of those movies where they row out from the shore to greet the new arrivals and get slaughtered.

    Imagine the setting, Beautiful NZ day in a Far North bay. Minto, Locke and Burns row out to meet the Hamas (in a hijacked Australian warship) and welcome them to our land as liberators from the evil National Govt. But 20m out from the warship with Minto and co waving frantically in anticipation they get mown down by a 100mm machine gun.

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  45. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    Stuart Israel can be defeated though. Reid etc base this belief on dealing with sane aggressors.

    Iran is auite capable of firing several Nuclear weapons at Israel. Yes Israel will have time to retaliate with full force, but then in 10 mins Israel will be a lump of glass.

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  46. grumpyoldhori (2,361 comments) says:

    It seems the IDF are in the shit.
    They have been staying out of built up areas, the only way they can get rid of all the Hamas types is to go in and dig them out of the rubble and tunnels.
    But their casualties will soar when it comes to that type of scrap.

    They could bomb Gaza flat, but again there is no guarantee that would work, Hamas would take shelter in bunkers and just wait for a close in fight.
    Is Israel prepared to take the casualties that it would take to get rid of each and every Hamas type, I have my doubts.
    It seems Hamas believe they have nothing to lose so why not kill a few Israelis before they are knocked off.
    How many dead will Israel accept ?

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  47. Gulag Archipelago (146 comments) says:

    Israel have warned that rockets leaving the ground [1cm?] from Iran will provoke a retaliation. It looks as if it is WW 4. Iran according to some sources already have a nuclear weapon.

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  48. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    (It looks as if it is WW 4)

    well I guess NZ had better get the Herc ready

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  49. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # Southern Raider (892) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    Stuart Israel can be defeated though. Reid etc base this belief on dealing with sane aggressors.

    Iran is auite capable of firing several Nuclear weapons at Israel. Yes Israel will have time to retaliate with full force, but then in 10 mins Israel will be a lump of glass.

    I was not aware that Iran has any nuclear weapons, do you have a credible source for this?
    In any case, even if they did, its a case of Iran, or the others, not winning; to win they need to be able to be capable of occupying their territory while keeping their own intact, and this they cannot do, ergo Israel cannot be defeated. Of course Israel cannot win either, but that is the brutal reality of nuclear weapons held on a large scale.

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  50. grumpyoldhori (2,361 comments) says:

    Southern Raider, Israel was bloody stupid to open the nuclear genie in the Middle East.
    They have no chance of knocking the Iranian program out.
    So give it five years and Israel and Iran can glare at each other over their nukes.
    And of course Turkey and Egypt will want to join the same club.

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  51. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # Gulag Archipelago (74) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    ” Iran according to some sources already have a nuclear weapon.”

    I would love to see those sources and I would love to know the type of weapon, and more importantly, its delivery mechanism and unless those can be reliably confirmed, anything else is speculation. Its one thing to build a nuke, that’s just an engineering exercise, but having the skills and industry to miniaturise them enough to fit on a MRBM or SRBM is something that only a few nations can do, and Iran is not known to be one of them given the short space of time they have been in the nuclear business.

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  52. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    So how would that conflict with Turkeys membership of NATO grumpy?

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  53. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    Patrick, Turkey has been rounding up a growing group of secularists in recent months that are apparently linked to a coup plot, but there is no evidence to back this up.

    Turkey is a very nice place and they are extremely friendly people who used to fight for any move away from having a secularist Govt. Somehow the Islamists got in and there has been a growing shift away from there founding principles which is disturbing.

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  54. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # grumpyoldhori (498) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    Southern Raider, Israel was bloody stupid to open the nuclear genie in the Middle East.
    They have no chance of knocking the Iranian program out.

    They don’t need to, what they need to be able to do is destroy Iran’s warfighting capacity and when nukes are involved that means Iran effectively ceases to exist.

    “# grumpyoldhori
    So give it five years and Israel and Iran can glare at each other over their nukes.
    And of course Turkey and Egypt will want to join the same club.

    They can want all they like, but their are ways and means to prevent that, and it will be prevented, and the same is true of Iran, and those ways and means are not likely to be revealed for at least 150 years (to protect the guilty and innocent.). There is simply too much at stake in the middle east to allow a rampant nuclear build up that may end up with region wide instant sunrise.

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  55. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    The reason I can’t respect the Muslim religion is because Muslims have to flee to the Christian countries that God has honoured. The Muslim God has not profited any Muslim country or there wouldn’t be so many here.

    Hamas and Hizbollah are fanatical terroists who can’t be reasoned with.

    There is no forgiveness in their doctrine and therefore no undertanding intertwined.

    New Zealand is on a list of countries to be targeted by Muslim extremists after we have taken in their followers.

    they are not to be trusted and as far as I am concerned, Muslims should be deported back to their countries to work out their own problems. They make it our business and it just isn’t.

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  56. grumpyoldhori (2,361 comments) says:

    Stuart Mackey, Israel does not have the ability to knock out Iran’s nuclear program without using nukes, and even the red sea pedestrians are not that mad.
    Besides the yanks will not let them cross Iraq with aircraft while the yanks have so many of their people in Iraq.
    Besides, if Russia wanted to wind up the USA etc it could supply Iran with nukes and the USA could not do a bloody thing about it.

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  57. grumpyoldhori (2,361 comments) says:

    Stuart Mackey, why bother fitting a nuke to a missile, I bet there are plenty of Iranian Mig pilots who would gladly receive the seventy two virgins.
    Just strap the nuke to a Mig, go via Lebanon and Israel would have sod all warning.

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  58. grumpyoldhori (2,361 comments) says:

    wikiriwhis business , do you trust those other Semites, you know one of whom was kiwi born yet committed an act of treason against NZ ?

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  59. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Hamas and Hizbollah are fanatical terroists who can’t be reasoned with. There is no forgiveness in their doctrine and therefore no undertanding intertwined.

    See here’s the thing, wiki and all others like Lucy, Patrick, SR etc who make this point time and time again as if it means anything at all. Here’s the thing.

    If you can’t deal with Hamas, as in, you refuse to, this means therefore, as an inescapable elementary conclusion of YOUR OWN LOGIC, that you either have to (a) eliminate all the people in Gaza or (b) find someone else to negotiate with.

    Obviously Israel has chosen (b). This is what Gaza 09 is all about.

    If you perceive Gaza as mere self-defence against implaccable terrorism and that’s all there is to it, you’re just being naive. Extremely naive.

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  60. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # grumpyoldhori (499) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    Stuart Mackey, Israel does not have the ability to knock out Iran’s nuclear program without using nukes, and even the red sea pedestrians are not that mad.”

    I said that they *dont need to* knock out their nuclear programme, just their warfighting capacity, and if Iran has nukes then Israel will use their nukes.

    “# grumpyoldhori
    Besides the yanks will not let them cross Iraq with aircraft while the yanks have so many of their people in Iraq.”

    Lol, you think that’s only way to do it? or that any one will ‘see’ these aircraft?

    “# grumpyoldhori
    Besides, if Russia wanted to wind up the USA etc it could supply Iran with nukes and the USA could not do a bloody thing about it.

    Russia wont, because they will not risk the smallest chance that Iran might use them and trigger a war with the US, which would be nuclear.

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  61. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Besides, if Russia wanted to wind up the USA etc it could supply Iran with nukes and the USA could not do a bloody thing about it.

    Some reports indicate that’s already happened, grumpy, years ago. Of course they could have got a stray one on the black market in the 90’s as well. I imagine a few nations tried that on.

    BTW, I hope people are well aware of the cross connections and agreements between Iran-China, Iran-Russia, Russia-China. Understanding those is critical to one’s analysis of the Iran-US-Israel issue.

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  62. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # grumpyoldhori (501) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 3:14 pm

    Stuart Mackey, why bother fitting a nuke to a missile, I bet there are plenty of Iranian Mig pilots who would gladly receive the seventy two virgins.
    Just strap the nuke to a Mig, go via Lebanon and Israel would have sod all warning.

    Excepting that they can track the aircraft virtually from the moment it leaves Iranian airspace and have their own aircraft intercept it over Syria? That’s to say nothing of their own SAM systems within Israel.
    More to the point, if they cannot fit it to a missile, then they cannot fit the thing on a MIG either, especially as it has to have the additional weapons to defend itself to target and the extra fuel tanks to give it the manoeuvring capacity to reach target. Remember that the early bombs had to be carried by aircraft such as the B29 through the B52, that is assuming that Iran has any nukes at all and that has not been confirmed (although we all know that want them)

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  63. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Read you Vanityfair Article.

    That well known heavyweight political mouthpiece.

    Which is so left wing as to be renamed ‘Pravda’, and get away with it!

    Funnily enough all I read was that Iran was more successful in bullying than Fatah.

    Iran poured more money and perssonnel in than the US.

    To compare it to the Bay of Pigs or Irancontra 2.0 was hilarious.

    So Iran, a theocracy of malevolants, and Cuba a Dictatorship that has screwed its population into the ground.
    (Yes, been there as well!)

    Like Syria, Lebanon, Iran etc.

    They all went very poor and fucked up when the USSR stopped its hedgemony by effectively going bust. And ceasing all financial and military support in capital weaponry.

    Russia and the US robbed all the gold from Madrid and Barcelona for their payment for being involved in the Spanish Civil War.

    Gaza has fuck all GDP, and it is the UN grant scheme that is used to arm Hamas.

    The UN are the funders of hate.

    Paul, you can come out from under the bed. reid only wants to retaliate when someone is rude, rockets rigged to maim and kill don’t worry him.

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  64. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Thanks Glutaemus for reading it, that’s great.

    Nothing you say above has any effect on the argument I’m making though. My argument relies on the veracity of the documents, names, dates and places that are stated in the article. If those exist, accurately as stated in the article, then my argument remains sound. Attack those things if you wish to attack my argument.

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  65. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Paul (1309) 0 27 Says:

    January 11th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

    Paul, read your blog.

    Fascinating insight into a very sick mind.

    So increases in ACC are due to National’s crap management over the last decade?

    You are a pathetic, wimpy, lying flatliner.

    By the way , I want to be the most re-viled on the blogosphere.

    I am Spartacus!

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  66. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    reid, I don’t doubt the truth about American or Israeli or British/French involvement.

    The problem is the amount of time, training, supplies, and cash Iran has pored into that project, which was obviosly more successful.

    I hate Iran for supplying IED’s used to kill Brits and Allies in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    That administration is openly anti-western.

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  67. Eisenhower (137 comments) says:

    BTW, I hope people are well aware of the cross connections and agreements between Iran-China, Iran-Russia, Russia-China. Understanding those is critical to one’s analysis of the Iran-US-Israel issue.

    Reid, China don’t give two fucks about anything regarding foreign policy except relating to Taiwan. They only see money.

    Russia sees its Iran relationship as a marriage of convenience – as in a check on US encroachment on its southern region of influence, and the ME in general.
    There happens to be a growing isolationist movement relating to races emerging in Russia which will be incompatible, not only with the transfer of sensitive technologies to these “inferiors” but also with its orthodox Christian heritage. The Chechen experience and their own taste of terrorism taught them this. After facing Arab-supplied weapons in the Caucasus the last thing they want is to choke on their own ‘dirty’ bomb.

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  68. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Reid: Yeh but what about the fact that while Hamas may have that written in its charter it doesn’t mean its anything more than a negotiating position, if it were ever asked to negotiate. Point is, Lucy, no-one has ever asked them to negotiate, ever since they were elected. Never. Ever. Doesn’t that strike you as just a teeny bit peculiar in the context of what’s happened since then.

    [DPF: You are wrong. There have been dozens of attempts to get them change their charter. You are flat out lying when you say there has been no attempt. Various UN and EU statements over time have called on them to amend their charter, to allow relations to be normalised. Hamas has refused each and every time. Did you know their covenant actually slams peaceful solutions as being in contradiction to their principles?]

    According to that Vanity Fair article to which I was referring DPF, there has been no attempt to negotiate with Hamas since its election, apart from a take-it-or-leave-it-immediate-response-required proposition. If you call that an “attempt,” be my guest. I’m surprised you imagine I would be so stupid as to say something so specific without evidence, DPF.

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  69. radar (319 comments) says:

    Still DPF hasn’t condemned the shelling of civilians by Israel. His mantra seems to be: Israel good, Hamas bad.

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  70. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Reid, China don’t give two fucks about anything regarding foreign policy except relating to Taiwan. They only see money.

    I don’t agree Eisenhower and you only have to observe the South Pacific Chinese operations for evidence. There’s a quiet proxy war for influence between the US and China and in the South Pacific you can see it all around the Islands. That’s just one small example of an emerging body of evidence that she’s flexing her wings all over the world. China plays interesting games with the US and Iran. China needs Iran’s CNG so they’ve stitched up a supply agreement, I believe they have defence treaties as well.

    Russia sees its Iran relationship as a marriage of convenience – as in a check on US encroachment on its southern region of influence, and the ME in general.

    Absolutely agree Eisenhower. What concerns me about this is that Russian-US relations took a dive recently over the last several years not just in Georgia, and they haven’t recovered.

    Russia have apparently supplied Iran with Sunburn missiles. These are high-speed evasive missiles that can’t be stopped by CIWS or anything else. They are so fast they can sink an aircraft carrier with kinetic energy alone. Sound unbelievable? Do some research.

    Point is, the Persian Gulf is a narrow lake – I think about 6 km wide. US aircraft carriers patrol up and down. The mountains on Iran’s border alongside the gulf is perfect for a fighter to hide, bloom, fire, hide. Once launched, those missiles can’t be stopped. End of aircraft carrier – 6,000 people, etc.

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  71. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    reid (1732) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
    Russia have apparently supplied Iran with Sunburn missiles. These are high-speed evasive missiles that can’t be stopped by CIWS or anything else. They are so fast they can sink an aircraft carrier with kinetic energy alone. Sound unbelievable? Do some research.”

    Care to provide some evidence for that claim with respect to Sunburn’s capabilities, especially as the US has been training to deal with such missiles since the 60’s, and developed the AEGIS system specifically to deal with multi regimental strikes from such weapons?. Furthermore you do not take account of the over all capabilities of US CVBG’s to eliminate the delivery systems of such missiles before the become an issue, to say nothing of their airforce.

    Mind you, given Iran’s demonstrated inability to maintain their submarines or develop an indigenous fighter aircraft I would not hold out too much hope that they can successfully maintain a survivable delivery system for these unconfirmed SSM’s

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  72. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    reid (1732) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
    I don’t agree Eisenhower and you only have to observe the South Pacific Chinese operations for evidence. There’s a quiet proxy war for influence between the US and China and in the South Pacific you can see it all around the Islands. That’s just one small example of an emerging body of evidence that she’s flexing her wings all over the world. China plays interesting games with the US and Iran. China needs Iran’s CNG so they’ve stitched up a supply agreement, I believe they have defence treaties as well.”

    You are correct about this, as far as I am aware. Furthermore China seems to have every intent to protect its new found world wide interests with the development of big deck aircraft carriers.

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  73. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Stuart, I hope I’m completely wrong about the Sunburn, that performance is what I’ve read, from military sources, just google Sunburn. I believe they upgraded the model to Iran so that’s Sunburn II.

    Glutaemus: The problem is the amount of time, training, supplies, and cash Iran has pored into that project, which was obviosly more successful. I hate Iran for supplying IED’s used to kill Brits and Allies in Iraq and Afghanistan. That administration is openly anti-western.

    Iran is the driver to this whole issue of which Gaza 09 is simply a passing side-show. It’s because of the Hamas-Iran connection that the WH took such a radical approach and refused to deal point-blank. Obviously none of us know what the intelligence really says, so what do we know about the real extent to which Iran is a genuine threat and to what extent is it demonised for other purposes? That’s the interesting question and if anyone thinks the real answer is anything less than somewhere in the middle, they’re wrong. Iran IS demonised, it’s also a real threat.

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  74. Banana Llama (1,043 comments) says:

    kiwi in america (645) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    “Do you condemn the US and British bombing of civilians during WW2?”

    No not at all.

    I was pointing out that what Israel is doing is going out of their way to avoid wide spread destruction to civilian property hence the reason why they are using artillery bursts instead of shelling the entire area with an Artillery barrage.

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  75. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    radar, if your mantra is: Hamas good, then Israel has to be gone

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  76. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    KIA, see my 4:38, then read that fucking article, since that is my premise. Then after doing that, note that my 4:23 explains that I’m only relying on the veracity of the following information: names, dates, places and documents that are cited.

    Those are quite the only thing I’m taking from the article that supports my position. Therefore, all the usual munting about lefty sources, is quite irrelevant, isn’t it.

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  77. kiwi in america (2,428 comments) says:

    reid
    The Haartz news report contradicts the Vanity Fair position that you cling to. Resorting to f bombing doesn’t make your point any more valid.

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  78. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    FFS, KIA.

    I’ve just read that article, dated 29 May, 2008. The negotiations and time-period I’m talking about is immediately following Hamas elections and before any restrictions whatsoever were imposed on Gaza. That’s the time to negotiate, but they didn’t, did they.

    Then, when the restrictions are in full flood, they announce “talks” and people like you are no doubt surprised how angry Hamas appear to be.

    I mean, fuck.

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  79. Eisenhower (137 comments) says:

    I hope I’m completely wrong about the Sunburn, that performance is what I’ve read, from military sources, just google Sunburn.

    Yeah, I did. Developed back in the late 90’s but it seems Raytheon are confident they have overcome the threat – Russian “Sunburn” anti-ship missle threat neutralized…

    Point is, the Persian Gulf is a narrow lake – I think about 6 km wide. US aircraft carriers patrol up and down. The mountains on Iran’s border alongside the gulf is perfect for a fighter to hide, bloom, fire, hide. Once launched, those missiles can’t be stopped. End of aircraft carrier – 6,000 people, etc.

    Yeah, and what do you think the US reaction would be? And would Russia sanction a mutual demise to support a diametrically opposed culture? The answer is no.

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  80. kiwi in america (2,428 comments) says:

    reid
    To believe no negotiations of any type took place right after the elections particularly through back channels is naive and fanciful for the reasons I cited earlier. I cite the Haartz article because you have said repeatedly that the Israeli’s have NEVER EVER attempted negotiations of any type with Hamas – you have been consistently that persistent in your claims of EVER to the point of boring fellow posters. This article disproves your absolutist commenting on this particular bone that you have gnawed on now since hostilities broke out.

    This presupposes any change of outcome assuming direct face to face talks of the type you seem to have desired would’ve take place. You dismiss Hamas’ charter as merely as posturing, a negotiating position. Many liberals and anti-war lefties in Europe dismissed Mein Kampf, the Nazis, the Brown Shirts, Kristalnacht, the yellow stars with similar naive dismissals.

    Hamas are radical Muslim fundamentalists who desire nothing more than the annihilation of the Zionist state. Fatah are corrupt brutish thugs who are little better but will negotiate with Israel from the premise that the Jewish state has a right to exist.

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  81. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Excellent news re: Sunburn, Eisenhower.

    Yeah, and what do you think the US reaction would be? And would Russia sanction a mutual demise to support a diametrically opposed culture? The answer is no.

    So why does both the US and Israel tempt both Russia and China by making noises about how much of a good idea it would be to attack Iran?

    what do you think the US reaction would be?

    If US does Iran, Iraq explodes, and you risk the entire Iraq force. Look at the supply lines. Cut those off. What do you have?

    If Israel does Iran (and why did it receive a year or more ago a big shipment of bunker-busters), much less serious consequences internationally but dynamite regionally. The region I believe sees Iran as a faithful nation of Islam.

    To idiots, the mere mention of Islam is enough to enrage them. Keep calm.

    Islam as a human dynamic is a very charitable and peaceful way, with integrity and ethics of the highest order. If you can look at them like that, it brings new light to the ME.

    Now if I’m right and the ME people really do see Iran like that, imagine it.

    I also believe that as this global issue develops, most people seem to be wrongly conflating the idea that the fact Iran may have a serious program doesn’t mean she will use it. That’s not a good thing.

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  82. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    reid: To believe no negotiations of any type took place right after the elections particularly through back channels is naive and fanciful for the reasons I cited earlier.

    The US had no intent whatsoever to negotiate with Hamas. Step by step, the article explains, Rice, Cheney et al moved to shut out Hamas. Names, dates, places, documents.

    What about that didn’t you understand, KIA?

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  83. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    reid in your world, then you would villify the following.

    Eisenhower
    Patton
    McCarthur
    Truman
    De Gaulle
    Churchill
    Bomber Harris

    ad infinitum.

    The ‘Firestorm’ bombings of Dresden, and Leipzig to name just two Saxon cities would be re-viled.

    The A-bomb attacks on Hiroshima, and Nagasaki are in the same category.

    Do you honestly think that they did the wrong things? Or just for the wrong reasons?

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  84. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    reid (1737) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 3 Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 5:21 pm

    Stuart, I hope I’m completely wrong about the Sunburn, that performance is what I’ve read, from military sources, just google Sunburn. I believe they upgraded the model to Iran so that’s Sunburn II.”

    You are. That’s not to say it should be underestimated, but there is a reason why people ‘in the business’ are not overly concerned with it. It becomes a problem when ships do not have the nessery radars and combat systems to deal with it and other missiles..like NZ.

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  85. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Eisenhower
    Loved his work.

    Patton
    Shame he was killed “accidentally.” A great man.

    McCarthur
    No opinion, nor knowledge – never looked into him, sounds like he got a bit carried away though…

    Truman
    What do you do? Drop it, or face a million US casualties? You only have two bombs. No more fissile material. If you invite the Japs to a demo on an atoll somewhere, you only have one left. What if they call your bluff even after you drop the other one? I don’t know what I would have done and I’m glad I’ve never been asked, is all I can say. What would you have done, Glutaemus?

    De Gaulle
    Pompous ungrateful ass

    Churchill
    The greatest man alive, when he was.

    Bomber Harris
    Like Truman, deciding on appalling choices. Dresden was wrong, it was packed with refugees fleeing from the Russians, it was wooden, it was, however, wartime. Again, don’t know.

    Hey I could give you five thousands words on each of those figures but I suspect no-one would read them, Glutaemus.

    Look the way I look at things like Gaza is this:

    Military strategy is about calculations. Humanity doesn’t enter into it.

    I ask three questions about all strategic things:
    What actually happened?
    What’s the effect?
    Why did it happen?

    I don’t even think about the humanity of it. It’s not relevant. It does not enter into the calculation.

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  86. paradigm (452 comments) says:

    Just to add my thoughts to the claims being made about “sunburn” Russian missiles:

    One of the more dangerous aspects of the sunburn missile (and all the other similar russian missile designs) is that they are both supersonic and surface skimming. AGEIS was originally designed to defend against a bomber squadron launching supersonic missiles from fairly high altitude. It is critical to note that the current surface to air missiles used by american ships (SM2, ESSM) require illumination of the target by a ship for terminal guidance. This was not much of a problem when facing missiles launched from high altitude, however for surface skimming missiles the curvature of the earth means the incomming targets cannot be illuminated until they get much closer. The SM2 in particular has a reported range of over 100km, yet I suspect it would only be able to shoot down a sea-skimming missile from less than half that distance due to the need to illuminate the target.

    However we should stress that AGEIS cruisers and destroyers should be able to shoot down the sunburn, just that they will have far less time to do so, and it will take fewer missiles to overwhelm the said ships. Since it is a political disaster if only one AGEIS cruiser/destroyer (let alone a carrier) is sunk, the proliferation of this missile is a concern. However the capabilities of the weapon are being exagerated here.

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  87. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Category mistake.
    In none of the instances cited above were the victims of the bombings an occupied country.

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  88. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # Gulag Archipelago (75) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 8:16 pm

    IRAN HAS NUCLEAR BOMB, SAYS TOP RUSSIAN GENERAL
    http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2002/Jun_2002/iran_has_nuke_6602.htm

    Russian admirals have also said they want to build nuclear propelled aircraft carriers in the 90 000tonne bracket by 2020, despite no longer having the facilities to do it. I wouldn’t believe everything that comes out of Mother Russia.

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  89. Gulag Archipelago (146 comments) says:

    Stuart, is this speaking from experience? Talked to many Russians lately? 2020 is 11 years away and a lot can happen in that time. Russia has changed a lot in the last 15-17 years.

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  90. goodgod (1,348 comments) says:

    Seems you have a lot in common with De Gaulle, reid. Why do you continue to argue in favour of people who want you dead? If you need psychological help, do it in you own time and keep it private. Online embarrasments can be reduced with just a drop of discretion.

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  91. Southern Raider (1,809 comments) says:

    Spoff Gaza isn’t occupied either. As a sovereign state they have declared war on Israel by their actions.

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  92. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # Gulag Archipelago (76) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 8:37 pm

    Stuart, is this speaking from experience? Talked to many Russians lately? 2020 is 11 years away and a lot can happen in that time. Russia has changed a lot in the last 15-17 years.”

    A lot has happened in Russia, but building ninety thousand tonne nuclear carriers within 11 years from scratch with no industrial capacity to do the job, and without the nessery trained personnel, is not within the realms of possibility for a country that has not built any aircraft carriers in 17 years let alone a nuclear one. Hell, they can barely refit the old Keiv class Gorshkov for India on time or on budget, its four years off its original delivery date, and about a billion over the projected cost.

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  93. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Israel controls who and what goes in and out of Gaza, it’s electricity, water, food and medical supplies. It makes armed incursions at will, assassinates its political figures at will. It is a besieged city, not a sovereign state.
    I understand the semantic argument and why you use it.

    Another distinction to add to the category mistake is that Japan and Germany possessed an army, navy and air force.

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  94. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    However the capabilities of the weapon are being exagerated here

    Good to hear paradigm and my apologies to all for any capability inaccuracies I have implied above.

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  95. grumpyoldhori (2,361 comments) says:

    Reid, Churchill great, he was a good politician I will give you that.
    But look at the bloody disasters that were his ideas.

    Gallipoli, cost us plenty.

    Greece in WW2 when ANZAC troops went to Greece in 41, Churchill told Freyberg , you will see plenty of aircraft overhead, yep the ANZACS did, every bloody one of them German.

    Churchill’s soft belly of Europe, Italy, one look at the bloody map would show it was a defensive bloody dream for the Germans

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  96. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    reid. Why do you continue to argue in favour of people who want you dead?

    I simply look at whatever the hell happened, goodgod.

    If that leads me to places other than where I expect to go, I try not to resist.

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  97. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Yeh but look at what he achieved as well, grumpy. Greatest ever, in his lifetime. He did things I don’t buy into, sure.

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  98. kiwi in america (2,428 comments) says:

    reid
    There are a range of opinions on the treatment of Hamas – the view expressed in the Vanity Fair article is A view not THE view. Almost all commentary on this topic is filtered through the world view of the author – this article is no different. But to you it is the word of God writ in tablet and you countenance no opposing view nor even a nuanced view to its opinion on Hamas and you have clung to this article as if it transcends all else written on the subject. Because it is partisan commentary, it slants facts to suit the world view of the author omitting the wider strategic and historic context.

    Because the US refused to countenance dealings with Hamas does not bind the Israeli government from investigating all plausible options.

    You have hung your hat unequivocally on its conclusions then attacked many on this blog who challenge the view you espouse about this particular conflict. Your blind adherence to the line you adopt leads you down an absolutist blind alley wherein you would repeat ad nauseum the line that there has been no negotiations of any type ever. When confronted withn evidence that this wasn’t true you now parse and redefine your previous absolutist position by zeroing on in just the US’ attitude to Hamas – a convenient switch as undoubtedly your world view is that Israel is but a Zionist pawn of evil naughty arrogant US imperialism.

    The EU is renown for its independence from US foreign policy. And yet it too formed the view that Hamas were not interested in negotiating a two State solution recognising the right if Israel to exist. You will of course cling to the view that Berlin, Paris, London, Rome etc do nothing more than Washington’s bidding.

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  99. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    KIA

    Can you give me a link to what Hamas is prepared to negotiate please.

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  100. mickysavage (786 comments) says:

    And the death toll is 800 Palestinians, 13 Israelis …

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  101. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    paradigm (126) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 8:31 pm

    [quote]Just to add my thoughts to the claims being made about “sunburn” Russian missiles:

    One of the more dangerous aspects of the sunburn missile (and all the other similar russian missile designs) is that they are both supersonic and surface skimming. AGEIS was originally designed to defend against a bomber squadron launching supersonic missiles from fairly high altitude.
    [/quote]

    That’s not correct. AGEIS came out with sea skimmers in mind as the USSR had them prior to its introduction, namely ship based. Moreover thanks to US EC2 AWACS, detection and radar feeds are utilised by AGEIS from that system. Apparently AGEIS can handle some 200 ASM’s. I aslso have no doubt that the US was experimenting with the type in the 60’s which would have let to its own SSM systems, like Harpoon, and they would have used that data for fleet defence plans.

    [quote]
    It is critical to note that the current surface to air missiles used by american ships (SM2, ESSM) require illumination of the target by a ship for terminal guidance. This was not much of a problem when facing missiles launched from high altitude, however for surface skimming missiles the curvature of the earth means the incomming targets cannot be illuminated until they get much closer. The SM2 in particular has a reported range of over 100km, yet I suspect it would only be able to shoot down a sea-skimming missile from less than half that distance due to the need to illuminate the target.[/quote]

    I think you will find thats not accurate either SM2, no longer needs terminal guidance. I shall quote Stuart Slade, a naval warfare specalist and former nuclear targeteer, who speaks on this very subject who knows the subject better than I. I apologise in advance for any risk of an appeal to authority.

    [quote]
    A – Ducting. The surface of the sea is covered by a layer of air that is both at a different temperature to the mass of the atmosphere and is also saturated with salt-laden moisture from the sea. This is called the surface duct. A radar transmission within the surface duct will be trapped within it and will actually bend over the horizon, often to very great distances. The radars on the CG-47s and DDG-51s are positioned to take advantage of the surface duct (the height at which they are mounted is not an accident or chosen capriciously.)

    B – Surface Adhesion. Radar energy, when of the correct frequency, actually sticks to the surface of the sea and will follow it around the earth’s curvature. This is a quite different phenomenom to the surface duct and can be observed even when there is no surface duct forming. Electronically scanned radars are very good at exploiting surface adhesion.

    C – The E2C/D The carrier group will have at least one E-2 Hawkeye up and probably two. They are effectively a radar set at the end of a mast several thousand meters tall. They can conduct surveillance over an area of thousands of square nautical miles and datalink the information to the air defense ships.

    Putting all three together, the CG and the DDGs can detect and engage targets while they are still far over the apaprent horizon. According to publically available sources, SM-2 can make intercepts against sea-skimming missiles at ranges of over 100 nautical miles.[/quote]

    One also has to remember that ship dont stand still, they move and can do so at around 30 knots and there is no guarantee that the shooter of the sunburn will ever get the chance, as they need accurate targeting information, the source of which may well be destroyed by a US SSN or carrier strike aircraft.

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  102. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Hori, understand that you have a Military background.

    The Russians were horrified when in Desert Storm 1, all their hardware was made redundant.

    They are decades behind the Yanks.

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  103. Stuart Mackey (337 comments) says:

    # Glutaemus Maximus (1122) Vote: Add rating 0 Subtract rating 0 Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 9:28 pm

    Hori, understand that you have a Military background.

    The Russians were horrified when in Desert Storm 1, all their hardware was made redundant.

    They are decades behind the Yanks.

    IIRC the Russians dont export “The Good Stuff” to their Middle Eastern brothers lest “The Good Stuff” fall into the hands of the Americans by way of Israel. But, yes, they are about 20 years behind in a number of respects.

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  104. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    No, I just meant something indicating what Hamas’ actual negotiating position is. Like what they want. Their starting position as it were.

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  105. kiwi in america (2,428 comments) says:

    mickey savage
    The RAF night bombing raids in WW2 killed 1.5 million German civilians for the loss of 50,000 aircrew. Were the RAF’s tactics right? Did the RAF drop leaflets waring the Germans in advance of attacks as Israel has done in Gaza?

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  106. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    You have hung your hat unequivocally on its conclusions then attacked many on this blog who challenge the view you espouse about this particular conflict. Your blind adherence to the line you adopt leads you down an absolutist blind alley wherein you would repeat ad nauseum the line that there has been no negotiations of any type ever. When confronted withn evidence that this wasn’t true

    “You have hung your hat unequivocally on its conclusions”
    No, all I’m interested in is the veracity of the names, dates, places and documents. Period. No commentary, nada. Now if you stripped everything away in the article but just those, my contention is, even you, could still connect the dots.

    “When confronted withn evidence that this wasn’t true”
    See KIA, no-one has said this name is wrong, this didn’t happen, that date’s not right.

    Now what about that, don’t you understand?

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  107. Glutaemus Maximus (2,207 comments) says:

    Don’t forget how many very brave Kiwis died in Bomber Command.

    Truly hope the lefties don’t dishonour their contribution to an epic struggle against Tyranny and Evil!

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  108. kiwi in america (2,428 comments) says:

    spoff
    OK understood – I’d have to research links to the Hamas negotiating position to see if anything credible comes up. I have a personal view as to what I believe it is – it’s better to see if someone official representing Hamas has publicly stated this.

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  109. Gulag Archipelago (146 comments) says:

    More importantly wish that the bureaucrats would get hold of some reality and pull their slack weight. They are the traitors.

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  110. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    KIA

    That’s OK. I had gained the impression, from what you said above, that you actually knew what you were talking about.

    Try this:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/31/comment.israelandthepalestinians

    Reid.

    You might be interested in this:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5485188.ece?Submitted=true

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  111. kiwi in america (2,428 comments) says:

    spoff
    In other words as we all suspected – long winded high minded sounding words but merely spin for a one state solution for Palestinians that doesn’t recognise Israel’s right to exist beating the “stolen land” drum as justification.

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  112. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    KIA

    Your reaction is only to be expected. Your mind-set has been established by the fact that you have been advising others as to what Hamas is all about without ever once having taken the trouble to read their own statements.
    Others might not agree however, particularly about the final offer of a ten year truce. But then, it becomes increasingly obvious that this is the last thing Israel wants.

    Interesting article by Chris McGreal in Jerusalem dealing with the origins of this latest stoush:

    Dan Gillerman, Israel’s ambassador to the UN until a few months ago, was brought in by the Foreign Ministry to help lead the diplomatic and PR campaign. He said that the diplomatic and political groundwork has been under way for months.

    “This was something that was planned long ahead,” he said…..

    Livni has suggested that Israel’s assault is good for the Palestinians by helping to free them from the grip of Hamas. “She’s basically trying to convince me that they’re doing this for my own good,” said Diana Buttu, the Palestinian Liberation Organisation’s legal counsel and negotiator with the Israelis over the 2005 pullout from Gaza……I don’t need her to tell me what’s good for me and what’s bad for me, and I don’t think carrying out a massacre is good for anybody.”

    And when the killing started, Israel claimed that the overwhelming majority of the 400-plus killed were Hamas fighters and the buildings destroyed part of the infrastructure of terror. But about a third of the dead were policemen. Although the police force in Gaza is run by Hamas, Buttu said Israel is misrepresenting it as a terrorist organisation.

    “The police force is largely used for internal law and order, traffic, the drug trade. They weren’t fighters. They hit them at a graduation ceremony. Israel wants to kill anyone associated with Hamas, but where does it stop? Are you a legitimate target if you work in the civil service? Are you a legitimate target if you voted for Hamas?” she said.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/04/israel-gaza-hamas-hidden-agenda

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  113. kiwi in america (2,428 comments) says:

    spoff
    You linked to an article in the Guardian written by a Hamas spokesperson who said in a mealy mouthed PR spin way “Israel has no right to exist”. The peace Hamas seeks only involves a peace where Israel signs its own death warrant and gives all its land back to the Palestinians – a position you have admitted to supporting.

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  114. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Spoff, if you want to better understand the Hamas negotiating position here is a very recent BBC interview with a senior Hamas leader, Osama Hamdan.
    Suggest you watch it (– and maybe you’ll learn something?)
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/hardtalk/7820073.stm

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  115. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Spoff, thanks for the link, which for those interested, was about Fatah coming back to Gaza. Who woulda thunk.

    One of the first comments beneath the article was interesting too:

    Fatah can not come back to Gaza on an Israeli tank. It would be political suicide, and it’s difficult to imagine even Abbas being able to do this without risking being overthrown and not only in Gaza but in the West Bank. This moronic plan is likely to produce the opposite of what’s intended.

    deborah , Wichita , USA

    This reeks of the neo-cons, doesn’t it. It’s even got their signature line: utter-total-complete-bloody failure.

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  116. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    gives all its land back to the Palestinians

    Slight correction.

    “gives all Palestinian land back to the Palestinians”

    This is a position supported by the U.N.

    A death warrant seems rather strong. If anything should have set the Arab World alight it was this latest outrage. They seem rather docile for the moment. And let us not forget Israel’s nukes.

    Possibly the death warrant of a state based on race however.

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  117. grumpyoldhori (2,361 comments) says:

    Glutaemus Maximus

    Ah is that why the yanks have taken up the fin stabilised 120 mm mortar, except for being a bit lighter and with better ammunition, a copy of what those useless Russians bought out in 1938.

    Yep the Israelis believed all Russian weapons were twenty years behind as they trundled their latest tanks into Lebanon, jeez they whined when they found those dual warhead Russian missiles would knock their tanks out.

    So why is it that the Israelis do not want Iran to get the latest Russian air defence system, after all it is no risk to their aircraft is it ?

    Much like those dinky M4 yank carbines, look real sexy they do, but useless at any range over 200 metres.
    Yet those old Lee Enfields that some of the Taliban use are very useful at longer ranges than that.

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  118. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    This moronic plan is likely to produce the opposite of what’s intended.

    That’s probably what Mossad said when it first heard what the WH had decided to do.

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  119. grumpyoldhori (2,361 comments) says:

    kiwi in america .
    You will have noticed that Israel has not stopped those rockets, so their assault on Gaza at this point has not worked.

    If they believe that Hamas has the death of every Jew in mind they will have to kill every last Hamas member.
    Which means they will need to send troops into built up areas, so how many dead Israeli troops will the Israeli public accept ?
    Because a close range fight evens the odds up no end.
    Now we have Europe speaking of a boycott of all Israeli goods and services, that will get Israel’s attention

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  120. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    KIA
    You haven’t yet seen how Mishal’s offer trumps Israel.

    Israel’s position is that they cannot give the Palestinians back their land because they would continue the violence.
    Hamas has offered a truce on the basis of a Hudna which, just as a Papal Bull binds all Catholics, binds all Muslims – no violence.

    The truce is for ten years and the parties are not to re-arm but to negotiate.

    Israel doesn’t even want to begin negotiations from this starting point and we all know that no-one puts their bottom line first. As a start position, anyone desiring peace would jump at it.

    It seems that Israel is more interested in land than in peace.

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  121. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    We shall never recognise the right of any power to rob us of our land and deny us our national rights. We shall never recognise the legitimacy of a Zionist state created on our soil in order to atone for somebody else’s sins or solve somebody else’s problem. But if you are willing to accept the principle of a long-term truce, we are prepared to negotiate the terms. Hamas is extending a hand of peace to those who are truly interested in a peace based on justice.

    Khalid Mishal
    Director, Hamas Political Bureau

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/31/comment.israelandthepalestinians

    KIA.

    Now, when blogging about Hamas, you’ll be able to tell people what their negotiating position is won’t you? That’s all I ask.

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  122. emmess (1,427 comments) says:

    As a side note why is Khalid Mishal’s email address – hoood88@hotmail.com?
    88 is a well known Neo-Nazi code for HH short for Heil Hitler

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  123. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    grumpyoldhori

    Have you read The War Nerd?

    http://exiledonline.com/?s=war+nerd

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  124. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    88 is a well known Neo-Nazi code for HH short for Heil Hitler

    It is also the number they give you if there are 87 other “hoood”s on the internet.

    Spare us please.

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  125. kiwi in america (2,428 comments) says:

    Ah yes spoff the core of this debate – the Palestinian versus Israeli definition Palestinian land – the subject of a fuller post I will prepare next week as this is my last holiday week. And of course the UN is soooo neutral when it comes to Israel. The farcically named UN Human Rights Commission, sporting representatives from those human rights stalwarts like Iran, Zimbabwe and Venezuela, has the temerity to ajudicate on Israel and lefties like you see the initials UN in front of a report and assume automatic moral ascendency.

    Funny thing happened with your hope that the Arab world being set alight by this “latest outrage” – little more than perfunctory condemnation from most Arab states. Arab diplomats quietly observe unofficially that Hamas miscalculated.

    Daniel Diker Foreign Policy Analyst of the Jerusalem Centre for Public Affairs reports “Israel may have reached a deterrent moment in its war in Gaza against Iranian-backed Hamas. I spoke with a senior Arab diplomat last night. He told me that the Arab street is afraid that “the Jews have gone crazy.”

    Yes, it’s true. He noted, “Israel has begun to restore its deterrence” in the Arab world. “Hamas miscalculated,” he added. They had thought Israel would not attack, but would merely accede to tougher Hamas demands for an improved “Tahdiya,” their version of a temporary calm.

    This is perhaps one of the more optimistic assessments I have heard from Arab colleagues recently. There is supporting documentation. Hizbullah’s immediate public denial yesterday of the Katusha rocket attack from Southern Lebanon against Israel’s North and the reports on Lebanese TV of convoys of Lebanese (read: Hizbullah) vehicles moving north in expectation of a major Israeli reprisal strengthens this sense.

    It’s also notable that Al Jazeera’s reportage yesterday avoided interviewing ordinary Gazans. Arab sources in Gaza confided that the public anger is not directed at Israel any more than it is at Hamas. Al Jazeera, doing a superb job as PR agents for Iran’s proxies, likely wanted to avoid risking those types of reactions from the battlefield.

    The source also said that Hamas is “doing very bad things” to Fatah activists in Gaza both as revenge against claims that Fatah leadership provided intelligence to Israel, and as a warning to Fatah to avoid the temptation of being convinced by Egypt, the US and the West that they reassert control in Gaza.”

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  126. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Arab sources in Gaza confided that the public anger is not directed at Israel any more than it is at Hamas.

    Yes I’m looking forward to seeing what actually happens about that, but usually that becomes apparent only some time after the immediate propaganda has been forgotten.

    I rather suspect at this time, there is for some reason, rather a lot of sympathy for Hamas on the Gaza street. But who can tell, now.

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  127. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    You dismiss a statement from the Hamas principle negotiator and director of its Political Bureau as long winded high minded sounding words but merely spin
    ….then you post something from the Jerusalem Centre for Public Affairs? Israel’s spin doctors.

    Jeez the standard of trolls is dropping around here.

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  128. emmess (1,427 comments) says:

    Well all these are available

    hoood@windowslive.com

    odhoo@windowslive.com

    hoood1@windowslive.com

    hoood2009@windowslive.com

    hoood1989@windowslive.com

    odhoo@hotmail.com

    hoood1970@hotmail.com

    hoood55@hotmail.com

    hoo_od@windowslive.com

    Including hoood55@hotmail.com as you can see, that blows that theory out of the water

    Anyway what is wrong with khalid.mishal@hamas.com

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  129. kiwi in america (2,428 comments) says:

    spoff
    Hamas’ terms of its ‘truce’ involves Israel essentially dissolving itself – this compares with Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and most elements in control of Fatah who accept the right of Israel to exist. What government of Israel will ever negotiate with an opponent seeking this outcome – its pretty simple. Just because I couldn’t quote the precise words they used to communicate their position in no way nullifies Hamas’ one state bottom line – a bottom line you avowedly support.

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  130. kiwi in america (2,428 comments) says:

    spoff
    Palestinian spin = good
    Israeli spin = bad
    Whose trolling here?

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  131. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    Hamas’ terms of its ‘truce’ involves Israel essentially dissolving itself

    KIA, what about the words: “opening gambit,” don’t you understand?

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  132. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    And of course the UN is soooo neutral when it comes to Israel.

    Most of the resolutions targeting Israel were passed by all but three states – the U.S., Palau and (I think) Micronesia.

    Like it or not, the U.N. runs on Democratic lines. In democracies, one doesn’t just obey the laws that one happens to agree with.

    For sixty years Israel has done just that.

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  133. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Including hoood55@hotmail.com as you can see, that blows that theory out of the water

    But was it when he applied for it?

    Are you by any chance married to KIA?

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  134. kiwi in america (2,428 comments) says:

    spoff
    The spin of Mishal is to dress up the one state solution in mealy mouth platitudes rather than just come right out and say what they mean – that the land that comprises the state of Israel is to be handed to Palestinians – the fate of the 7 million inhabitants well, that’s the Jews problem. That is the terms of the truce they want to negotiate and Israel knows it.

    At least YOU say what you want – a single Palestinian state with presumably the Jews that choose to stay living in dhimmitude to the Islamic majority (as is the case in current Islamic controlled states) and the rest of the Israeli Jews buggering off and finding a new ‘homeland’.

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  135. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    KIA, what you’re failing to acknowledge when it’s quite obvious, is that Hamas is prepared to sit down, they have always been prepared to sit down. It is not Hamas that has refused to negotiate.

    Now, if you think international negotiations are conducted like children, where if one child says the wrong thing the other will just stomp off, I beg to differ. However, that interpretation is the only one that explains why you stick so rigidly to your position that the Hamas charter is a show-stopper. It’s used as an excuse for one, but only idiots believe that.

    [DPF: What you seem incapable of comprehending (or don;'t care about) is it is not the charter of Hamas alone that is the issue, but the fact their actions show they are committed to their charter's aims.]

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  136. kiwi in america (2,428 comments) says:

    reid
    But everyone knows what Hamas’ bottom line is – a one state solution, its the reason why people like spoff support Hamas – they support the one state solution as well. Bedtime chaps Im afraid

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  137. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    that the land that comprises the state of Israel is to be handed to Palestinians

    Only that land, the title to which they still possess, which was taken from them without compensation or their guaranteed human right to return to it.

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  138. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    But everyone knows what Hamas’ bottom line is – a one state solution, its the reason why people like spoff support Hamas

    Yeah, you’re probably right KIA, never work. You know how it is with those states that go giving the niggers a vote.

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  139. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Interesting fellow Mashal.

    On September 25, 1997, Mashal was the target of an assassination attempt carried out by the Israeli Mossad under orders from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his security cabinet. Ten Mossad agents carrying Canadian passports entered Jordan, where Mashal was living. They broke into a home where he was sleeping and then applied a deadly poison to his neck. At the time of the assassination attempt Mashal was considered Hamas’ Jordanian branch chief. He told Third Way Magazine: “Israeli threats have one of two effects: some people are intimidated, but others become more defiant and determined. I am one of the latter.”

    Jordanian authorities discovered the assassination attempt and arrested two Mossad agents who had engaged in the attempt. Jordan’s King Hussein then demanded that Benjamin Netanyahu turn over the poison antidote, and at first Netanyahu refused. As the incident began to grow in political significance, however, American President Bill Clinton intervened and forced Netanyahu to turn over the antidote.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaled_Mashal

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  140. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    More Mashal

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/06/gaza-israel-hamas

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  141. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Spoff
    I trust you watched the Hardtalk video interview with Hamas on my link @10:35
    did you come away from that interview like I did just absolutely dumbfounded?

    That feeling of how can anyone be so irrational? where is the thought process?

    You think what on earth could have happened in the lives of these Islamic men that lead to such incongruous behaviour.
    How can any man be so fucked in the head that he can no longer see mild reason out of total bloody mindedness

    Then it occurred to me………………….

    He doesn’t have a wife,……………..the poor bastards got seven!

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  142. reid (16,290 comments) says:

    [DPF: What you seem incapable of comprehending (or don;'t care about) is it is not the charter of Hamas alone that is the issue, but the fact their actions show they are committed to their charter's aims.]

    What you seem incapable of comprehending (or don’t care about) DPF, is the significance of the fact that at the time it was elected, no-one ever tried to work with Hamas. See that’s the smoking gun that shows Gaza 09 is not about terrorism at all. Rather, it’s all about installing the “right people” and as a side-benefit, some Israeli politicians are able to look tough for their election in Feb.

    In other words, it’s not about terrorism but merely about dirty little politics, unfortunately, involving some “human collateral. Seeing as Hamas was democratically elected and all, I would have thought that meant something to some people. But apparently, democracy doesn’t matter to some people when the “right” govt isn’t elected.

    Tell me I’m wrong by pointing to some real and genuine attempts made by the US and Israel to work with Hamas at the time they were elected and before they started down the progressive path: impose restrictions, close borders, invade.

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  143. Bogusnews (473 comments) says:

    KIA,

    Excellent posts. Especially good to hear from someone who has actually spoken to people on the coal face of this conflict.

    I’ll look forward to your other post with interest next week.

    Cheers

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  144. kiwi in america (2,428 comments) says:

    spoff
    Almost all the land in what was deemed Israel by, why of all institutions the UN in 1947, was legally acquired at market rates by Jewish settlers from mostly Lebanese land owners. Show us one actual land title deed listing a Palestinian Arab owner (not a tenament farmer paying rent to an Lebanese absentee landlord) that is inside the 1948 borders.

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  145. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    Reid, I shake my head in disbelief every time I read this explanation from you.
    What does it matter whether anyone spoke, or attempted to speak to Hamas when they were elected FFS. How does that give anyone the right to start firing rockets at innocent civilians across a border? – It doesn’t.
    Are you suggesting the felt ignored, so started killing jews? (maybe they felt ignored by fatah as well)

    Is there something we can learn from this in our criminal justice system perhaps, I can just hear it now. “Tell me Mr Graeme Burton –did anyone attempt to speak to you before you went on your murderous rampage? – was that a ‘no’? Fine – not guilty”.

    Hamas have admitted they knew the end game of their continual ‘poking sticks’ across the Israeli border would result in war, so how is this some sort of master plan by Israel?

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  146. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    Martin Kramer, a senior fellow at the Adelson Institute for Strategic Studies, which is a department of the hawkish Jerusalem-based Shalem Center, believes that stopping Hamas from firing rockets into Israel — the declared aim of Operation Cast Lead, as the Israelis have dubbed their military campaign — is only part of Israel’s objective.

    “The long-term strategic goal is to restore the Palestinian Authority and eliminate Hamas control in Gaza,” he told the Forward.

    In his reading of the situation, Israel’s blockade is, as planned, communicating to Gaza residents that being under Hamas comes with a cost to their standard of living.

    “Israel could have ceased [Hamas] rocket fire by opening crossings,” he acknowledged. But “from a political point of view, it is not about rockets but about crossings.

    http://www.forward.com/articles/14907/

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  147. Patrick Starr (3,674 comments) says:

    …Shalem Center, ‘believes’ that…….

    is the key word, like all you lefties ‘believe’ the terrorists have every right to fire rockets at Israel

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  148. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    WASHINGTON, Jan 9 (IPS) – Contrary to Israel’s argument that it was forced to launch its air and ground offensive against Gaza in order to stop the firing of rockets into its territory, Hamas proposed in mid-December to return to the original Hamas-Israel ceasefire arrangement, according to a U.S.-based source who has been briefed on the proposal.

    The proposal to renew the ceasefire was presented by a high-level Hamas delegation to Egyptian Minister of Intelligence Omar Suleiman at a meeting in Cairo Dec. 14. The delegation, said to have included Moussa Abu Marzouk, the second-ranking official in the Hamas political bureau in Damascus, told Suleiman that Hamas was prepared to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would open up the Gaza border crossings and pledge not to launch attacks in Gaza.

    The Hamas officials insisted that Israel not be allowed to close or reduce commercial traffic through border crossings for political purposes, as it had done during the six-month lull, according to the source. They asked Suleiman, who had served as mediator between Israel and Hamas in negotiating the original six-month Gaza ceasefire last spring, to “put pressure” on Israel to take that the ceasefire proposal seriously.

    Suleiman said he could not pressure Israel but could only make the suggestion to Israeli officials. It could not be learned, however, whether Israel explicitly rejected the Hamas proposal or simply refused to respond to Egypt.

    The readiness of Hamas to return to the ceasefire conditionally in mid-December was confirmed by Dr. Robert Pastor, a professor at American University and senior adviser to the Carter Centre, who met with Khaled Meshal, chairman of the Hamas political bureau in Damascus on Dec. 14, along with former President Jimmy Carter. Pastor told IPS that Meshal indicated Hamas was willing to go back to the ceasefire that had been in effect up to early November “if there was a sign that Israel would lift the siege on Gaza”.

    Pastor said he passed Meshal’s statement on to a “senior official” in the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) the day after the meeting with Meshal. According to Pastor, the Israeli official said he would get back to him, but did not.

    “There was an alternative to the military approach to stopping the rockets,” said Pastor. He added that Israel is unlikely to have an effective ceasefire in Gaza unless it agrees to lift the siege.

    http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45350

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  149. Spoff (275 comments) says:

    A few months after Hamas’ 2006 election victory, leader Ismail Haniyeh tried to start a dialogue with U.S. President George W. Bush.

    Haaretz has obtained a written message from Haniyeh sent to Bush via an American professor who met with Haniyeh in the Gaza Strip. Haniyeh asked Bush to lift the boycott of the Hamas government and pressure Israel to maintain stability in the region.

    Haniyeh wrote in the missive, “We are an elected government which came through a democratic process.”

    In the second paragraph, Haniyeh laid out the political platform he maintains to this day. “We are so concerned about stability and security in the area that we don’t mind having a Palestinian state in the 1967 borders and offering a truce for many years,” he wrote.

    Haniyeh called on Bush to launch a dialogue with the Hamas government.

    “We are not warmongers, we are peace makers and we call on the American government to have direct negotiations with the elected government,” he wrote. Haniyeh also urged the American government to act to end the international boycott “because the continuation of this situation will encourage violence and chaos in the whole region.”

    Upon his return to the U.S. several days later, Segal gave State Department and NSC officials the original letter.

    In his own letter, Segal emphasized that a state within the 1967 borders and a truce for many years could be considered Hamas’ de facto recognition of Israel.

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1037258.html

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  150. getstaffed (9,186 comments) says:

    KIA @8:00am. That’s the nub of the land issue.

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  151. Thrash Cardiom (298 comments) says:

    All you people saying that “you can’t negotiate with Hamas” forget that for years people were saying exactly the same thing about Arafat, the PLO, Fatah etc. but somehow it was possible to negotiate; to get them to change their position.

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