NZ least corrupt

November 19th, 2009 at 11:00 am by David Farrar

has effectively ranked as the least corrupt country on Earth. That’s obviously a good thing. But to some degree they can be self fulfilling prophecies as much of the data is based on perceptions of .

So to be absolutely precise NZ was perceived as having the lowest level of corruption in the public sector of the 180 countries surveyed

The top five countries are:

  1. New Zealand 9.4
  2. Denmark 9.3
  3. Singapore 9.2
  4. Sweden 9.2
  5. Switzerland 9.2

The bottom five are:

  1. Somalia 1.1
  2. Afghanistan 1.3
  3. Myanmar 1.4
  4. Sudan 15
  5. Iraq 1.5

Countries I have been in recently:

  1. USA 7.5
  2. Turkey 4.4
  3. Kuwait 4.1
  4. Thailand 3.4
  5. Egypt 2.8

As I said above, this doesn’t mean we are corruption free. Taito Philip Field is an example of how that is not true. It is more than any corruption is not systemic.

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64 Responses to “NZ least corrupt”

  1. starboard (2,447 comments) says:

    NZ least corrupt

    …since klark got the boot….

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  2. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    Not much different Starboard. It is based on a wider perception than unProgressive club on Kiwiblog.

    2009 – 9.4 (1st)
    2008 – 9.3 (1st equal)
    2007 – 9.4 (1st equal)
    2006 – 9.6 (1st equal)
    2005 – 9.6 (2nd equal, Iceland f1st)
    2004 – 9.6 (2nd, Finland 1st)
    2003 – 9.5 (3rd equal, Finland 1, Iceland 2)
    2002 – 9.5 (2nd equal, Finland 1st)
    2001 – 9.4 (3rd, Finland 1, Denmark 2)
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/11/general_debate_18_november_2009.html#comment-632698

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  3. transmogrifier (518 comments) says:

    See, that comment is pointless sub-primary school pulling-on ponytail attention grabbing. We’ve been pretty high for a long time, regardless of who is in power.

    We may scoff, given the dubious personalities of many of pur politicians, but I do think we can be proud of the fact that day to day when dealing with people in beauracracies (including police, schools etc), we don’t encounter the constant need to grease the wheels to get anything done. That’s not to say it doesn’t happen of course, and that’s not to say our bearacracies are necessarily good at what they do (Immigration, for example).

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  4. Swiftman the infidel (329 comments) says:

    Police Commissioner Howard Broad (who’s name rhymes with fraud) let Helen Clark and Liarbour off the hook.

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  5. andrei (2,429 comments) says:

    What could be more corrupt than the sophistry that calls CO2 a pollutant and uses this to demonize the people who produce the real wealth in this country in order to soak them and the small man?

    At least third world kleptocrats don’t pretend to be honest unlike our bunch of thieving pricks.

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  6. Chthoniid (1,966 comments) says:

    The main lesson from these studies seems to be that small, liberal democracies do better on corruption figures.

    I suspect that the smallness is an important driver.

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  7. Brian Smaller (3,915 comments) says:

    I suspect that the smallness is an important driver.

    That and not living in tribal culture where warlords hold sway. Not being run under Sharia law seems to help as well.

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  8. starboard (2,447 comments) says:

    ..she and liarbor were/are as bent as my nose. ..my nose has been broken twice…to say otherwise is denying the facts PG

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  9. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Starboard, socialists always drag out these “perceptions” as if they’re some kind of acknowledgment of how good socialist governments are.

    This is a complete distortion.

    This survey does not measure institutionalized corruption within government, it measure corrupt dealings between the private sector and government.

    If for example, John Key might get a kick back by means of a personal payment into his bank account from an oil company for opening up a certain area for oil exploration, that is measured. (not that Key would ever be guilty of such a thing. I dislike him because he is misguided. I accept that he is relatively honest).

    When Helen Klark doles out grants to Maori organisations so they will vote Labour, (without directly enriching herself as in the previous example) this kind of within government legislative fraud is not measured.

    NZ’s high ratings are down to it historical Jeudo Christian moral base, not to socialism, that form of government which has as its main political objective the destruction of that aforesaid moral base.

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  10. big bruv (12,342 comments) says:

    Transparency International have obviously not bothered investigating the ongoing theft of public fund by Mowree groups and organisations.

    They have not taken into account the actions of the previous Labour government when the attempted the theft of $880,000, nor have they having a look at the actions of various other left wing political parties.

    We are far from corrupt, we sure as hell do not deserve to be at the top of this list.

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  11. mjwilknz (606 comments) says:

    Do people believe MMP is in the process of making us more corrupt? I point to the alleged relationship between a former MP and the fishing and racing industries as an example.

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  12. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    I assume our corruption rating is based on those actually convicted of corruption in the courts.

    Of course, if the police and court systems themselves are subject to political sway then this may influence the outcome of such results.

    Nine years of Labour in a time of plenty, and yet National get into power and find the cupboard bare – would tend to indicate some pretty serious corruption behind the scenes committed by the then Labour government.

    Funny how the law was changed regarding treason being subject to the death penalty.
    One does have to ask the question, ‘Why?’

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  13. Pascal (2,015 comments) says:

    Considering how corrupt the previous government was I am surprised! Intimidating people into silence, using political clout for personal gain, systemic liars in parliament, theft of public funds for political use and so forth. How did the Labour government manage to earn a non corrupt rating?!?

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  14. Chris2 (704 comments) says:

    I imagine Phillip Field was convicted sometime after TI completed their survey of New Zealand for this year, so it is highly possibly his bribery conviction will be counted in the next survey.

    We can probably expect to fall off our No.1 ranking when the next results are published, because of Field’s conviction.

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  15. Chthoniid (1,966 comments) says:

    The ranks are focused on the public sector, so mostly they are looking for systematic evidence that regulators abuse their powers (beyond that granted by legislation- like contracts for ‘mates’), and to the extent that bribes are necessary to get things done.

    Passing paintings off as your own, is unlikely to matter much to the restaurant getting health certification or a forestry company wanting MAF inspectors to clear their logs as disease-free.

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  16. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    “This is a complete distortion” and “NZ’s high ratings are down to it historical Jeudo Christian moral base”.

    Are you suggesting our relatively moderate historical Jeudo Christian moral base distorts it? Or are you trying to claim a bob each way?

    Singapore at 3 on the list is mostly Buddhist and Muslim.

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  17. MT_Tinman (2,790 comments) says:

    Of more concern is NZ’s deliberate attempt to move down the list by welcoming refugees from most, if not all, of the lowest ranked countries.

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  18. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Singapore at 3 on the list is mostly Buddhist and Muslim.”

    Yes. Both religions that promote morality. Why are you always always always so fucking thick?

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  19. Jack5 (4,216 comments) says:

    Scoop! Witi Imihaera wrote the NZ part of the report!

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  20. Chthoniid (1,966 comments) says:

    LOL Jack5

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  21. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    I don’t think religion is a common factor – look at the bottom five.

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  22. stephen (4,063 comments) says:

    I assume our corruption rating is based on those actually convicted of corruption in the courts.

    dpf wrote:

    …much of the data is based on perceptions of corruption.

    Beyond that, try Google.

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  23. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “I don’t think religion is a common factor – look at the bottom five.”

    Yeah, you only have to have been in any of those countries to know the reality of how religious they are in reality. Moron.

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  24. emmess (1,333 comments) says:

    Obviously smallness is a huge factor

    Take Country A (small) – 1 corrupt act caught per year

    Take Country B (100 times bigger than Country A) – 50 corrupt acts caught per year

    Country A will be only have corruption in the news once a year while country B will have it weekly
    People in country A will forget about it, so country A will appear less corrupt than country B even though proportionately this is not the case.

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  25. kisekiman (224 comments) says:

    Singapore has it’s own institutuonalised corruption such as electoral gerrymandering and economic bullying in the few electorates not held by the PAP. The Lee dynasty has ruled Singapore like a proto-fascist dictatorship for nearly 45 years and is the safe deposit box for the region’s dirty money from Myanmar & Indonesia. Being equal with them is hardly an accolade.

    In addition the ruling elite in the public service are mostly ethnic Chinese who are nominally Christian.

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  26. MikeE (555 comments) says:

    How on earth can somalia be the most corrupt? in order to be corrupt you need a government. You can’t have corruption in an anarchy

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  27. Paul G. Buchanan (301 comments) says:

    I agree with kisekiman. There may be no low-level kickbacks and greasing of palms, but anything on a big scale gets done only if the ruling party gets a cut in one form of another. Since that party is a vehicle for its founding father, his family and acolytes, they materially benefit directly from the system. Just take a look at who is the CEO of Tamesak Holdings, or at the relationship between the labour confederation and the party. Or consider the fact the current PM (son of the founding father) made BG General at age 26 without ever having commanded troops in the field. Or that all of the senior military leadership are members of the party and retire to civilian bureaucratic jobs at age 50 or 55. There is plenty more, but the issue is simple: reputational surveys are about image not reality.

    As for the religious make up of the place. Again, kisekiman is right and Peter George is wrong. The place is 1/4 Muslim but these (mostly Malays) are by and large at the bottom of the socioeconomic totem pole. There are many Hindus, a number of Bhuddists, lots of Christians and many agnostics, spiritualists, animists and atheists. What binds them all together is the national religion, which is the craven pursuit of immediate material gratification whereby social status is measured by ostentatious, when not crass consumption and the reification of commodity ownership (of cars and jewelry, in particular). It is truly a place where money=status, regardless of merit or ethics.

    Then again, compared to its neighbours, the place is, in fact, a bit of an oasis…..

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  28. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    The Singapore census includes detailed data on religion and ethnicity, and is taken on a ten-year basis. Figures for religion in the year 2000 are:
    * Buddhism – 42.5%
    * Islam – 14.9%
    * No Religious Affiliation – 14.8%
    * Christianity – 14.6%
    * Taoism – 8.5%
    * Hinduism – 4%
    * Other religions – 0.6%

    Not that it is relevant to the question of corruption. Sounds like Capitalism rules.

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  29. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Then again, compared to its neighbours, the place is, in fact, a bit of an oasis…..”

    Yes, especially the crime ridden welfare corrupted stinking racist hole you have made of NZ. A great little country until the Progressives maneuvered their way to political and social supremacy.

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  30. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “How on earth can somalia be the most corrupt? in order to be corrupt you need a government. You can’t have corruption in an anarchy”

    That’s why Pete George’s comments were so absurd. You need democracy before you can make an issue of corruption.

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  31. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Kisekiman and Pablo ar ejust repeating left wing talking points. If it was so bad, Pablo wouldn’t be living there. Hypocrite.

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  32. kelsey (35 comments) says:

    NZ’s high ratings are down to it historical Jeudo Christian moral base, not to socialism, that form of government which has as its main political objective the destruction of that aforesaid moral base.

    I think the main thing that NZ, AU and a bunch of Scandinavian countries have in common is a high proportion of people of no religion.

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  33. ISeeRed (244 comments) says:

    Piffle. “Advanced” welfare state democracies are just as corrupt as the most totalitarian Third World backwater. Modern democracy is basically who gets whose money and how much.

    “Every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods” – H. L. Mencken. (1880-1956) American Journalist

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  34. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    Red, if you think Somalia isn’t corrupt you could go and live there, it might fit your demeanor. It’s not me that said “the crime ridden welfare corrupted stinking racist hole you have made of NZ.” Who’s the hypocrite?

    Corruption isn’t limited to political corruption, there can also be corruption in business and sport. Transparency International defines corruption as “the abuse of entrusted power for private gain”.

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  35. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    Least corrupt said Peter to the airport security staff.

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  36. stuart munro (6 comments) says:

    Obviously these official figures never considered such matters as the asset sales of the 90s, the Army’s use of communications consultants to drive the LAV purchase, or the ministerial BMWs that broke the emissions specification used to ‘justify’ their purchase.

    NZ still has a clockwork windup internet, New Zealanders pay more for locally produced butter than folk almost anywhere else in the world, and the most common legal interaction NZers experience are disproportionate fines levied on trivial parking or speeding offences by cash strapped councils and by speed camera.

    The thing that is most remarkable about hanging in New Zealand, is how many escape it. Hone and Rodney for starters.

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  37. Grant Michael McKenna (1,152 comments) says:

    I lived in South Africa for most of my life before coming to NZ, but have worked in several other African countries. Corruption is so endemic in some places as to no longer be corruption but the way things are. The real damage is when bureaucrats no longer seek an extra amount to do a job faster, but rather an amount to do [or not do] a job at all.

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  38. Johnboy (13,370 comments) says:

    “That and not living in tribal culture where warlords hold sway.”

    Never lived in Naenae or Wainui then Brian?

    How can we be least corrupt when our leader buys votes for his (ETS) policies off the Maori Party with other peoples (tax) money?

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  39. Viking2 (10,709 comments) says:

    Talking ?Corruption. Here’s Nationals latest efforts. Corrupt to the core. Why is the question.

    National and their hurry to pass the ETS.

    The reason Smith and Key are in such a hurry to pass the legislation is in fact because Act have a Bill in the House somewhere that comes into Law later this year that makes it mandatory for all Govt. legislation to have a cost benefit analysis that has been properly scrutinized and published.
    These two charlatans can’t do that with the ETS and so they propose to use urgency to ram this through with the consent of the Maori Party.(yep Harawira and all), which is why the Maori Party gave Hone two weeks to ponder leaving.) Of course he won’t because Maori stand to get so much handed to them at the expense of everybody else. Its time that people woke up to Key and English and Smith.

    Actually the same behavoir that Helen Clark and Winston Peters used to get up to and you all thought that we had a new beginning. Obviously not.

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  40. Johnboy (13,370 comments) says:

    “Actually the same behavoir that Helen Clark and Winston Peters used to get up to and you all thought that we had a new beginning. Obviously not.”

    Only the Nat cheerleaders believe that. The rest of us realise all that has really changed is that our new, glorious leaders are just slightly less ugly than the last lot and not quite as venal—-yet.

    In due course they will be producing air-brushed election posters just like the last glorious leadership did.

    This blog will undoubtably be vigorously defending the realism of the leaders likeness.

    Life is a circle.

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  41. getstaffed (9,188 comments) says:

    This blog will undoubtably be vigorously defending the realism of the leaders likeness.

    Not this poster.

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  42. Johnboy (13,370 comments) says:

    “Not this poster.”

    Thats two of us. Anymore?

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  43. kisekiman (224 comments) says:

    Singapore is a pretty good place to live with low personal taxes, low crime and no welfarism but that doesn’t change the way things are politically as Paul pretty accurately described.

    Malaysia is more openly corrupt where you can get a “discount” on a speeding ticket by paying on the spot.

    When doing business there you need to make sure you get the right guy who can handle the retail and wholesale side of the transactions to avoid having to pay twice.

    Indonesia & Vietnam are probably worse again.

    Transparency International’s ratings are superficial and aren’t worth shit.

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  44. Paul G. Buchanan (301 comments) says:

    Judging from his comments after my earlier post, it seems that Russelbaiter prefers a one party authoritarian state to NZ’s parliamentary democracy. Sociopathologies aside, at least he is revealing his true beliefs. As for me living in that authoritarian state–economic necessity and marital obligations, not choice, is what forced me to leave NZ, so the charge of hypocrisy is denied.

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  45. Poliwatch (335 comments) says:

    Does this make Field the most corrupt (political) person in the least corrupt place. Nothing like being the big fish in a small pond.

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  46. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “a one party authoritarian state”

    It isn’t. This is a deliberate propaganda lie and shows that as always, leftist academics have to twist truth to serve their political allegiances. Nobody is forced to live in Singapore. Anyone unhappy (as they would be if it was indeed a one party authoritarian state) can leave whenever they want.

    These leftists propagandists try to draw attention away from the fact that due to their Gramascian domination of our culture, their take over of our public institutions, our universities and schools, our media and our bureaucracy, they have made NZ much closer to a one party state than Singapore will ever be. The essence of socialism, the political system Pablo and his comrades subscribe to, is totalitarianism. To socialize all and everyone until they have no other political perceptions.

    You can say what you like about Singapore’s political system. It is in terms of freedom from crime, freedom from taxes, and freedom from welfare tyranny it is so much better of a place to live than the New Zealand the Progressives (Pablo and his ilk) have destroyed.

    Singapore works because Lee Kuan Yew had the foresight to keep the Progressives out. They bitch and moan because it stands there testament to what a people can achieve without the corrupt and destructive influence of Progressivism, whilst NZ sinks in a stinking crime ridden socialist quagmire, and demonstrates exactly what happens when you do let Progressives take over.

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  47. Paul G. Buchanan (301 comments) says:

    RB–are you taking the piss, on the piss or just plain blinded by your McCarthyite world view? Even LKY admits that the system is not democratic and he recently stated that he does not expect it to be for at least another two decades. Nor is it a free market system but instead a state capitalist economy with foreign private investment enclaves.

    Can you name one opposition party that has been allowed to openly compete, much less win more than a handful of parliamentary seats ( out of a possible 96) in recent “elections.” Do you have any clue what “nominated” members of parliament are? Here, have a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_Singapore.

    Do you not realise that opposition parties cannot hold public rallies or run radio and TV adverts during campaigns? Or that they cannot hold fund-raising activities beyond limited membership drives? If you do, you are more messed up than I imagined.

    Your general ignorance or willful blindness is deep, because you clearly do not see that there are gradations of one-party authoritarianism, with some relying more on economic and social cooptation rather than repression to reproduce political exclusion, and with many using institutionally rigged elections to legitimate their rule. In fact, some even allow for limited dissent so long as it does not touch the “essentials” of the regime. SG is one of these.

    There is actually a huge literature on this but of course you will not see fit to read it because it is supposedly written by “progressives” and hence suspect. Suit yourself.

    For those who want a more objective look at the state of affairs in the third least corrupt country, check out http://www.theonlinecitizen.org.sg.

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  48. kisekiman (224 comments) says:

    The opposition in Singapore is so cowed and ineffectual as to be virtually non-existent. If you are brave/stupid enough to speak out and criticise members of the Govt then you can expect to be bankrupted in punitive defamation lawsuits.

    You may well argue that Labour/National are simply so close ideologically as to be indistingushable from each other therefore as good as good as a single party but at least they make a pretense of trying to differentiate.

    In NZ freedom of speech or dissent isn’t silenced from fear of court action…yet.

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  49. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Your general ignorance or willful blindness is deep, ”

    You talk to me of “wilful blindness” when you say its a one party state-

    Here’s a list of the Singapore political parties-

    http://wapedia.mobi/en/List_of_political_parties_in_Singapore#1.

    I count about 19. Tell me this. How does a one party state have 18 opposition parties? Tell me this. What law stops any Singaporean if he so chooses from voting for any one of those 18 opposition parties?

    You manufacture this big anti-democratic conspiracy theory when the reason people vote for the PAP is because they damn well like it, and they do not like the socialist/ Marxist/ Progressive leanings of almost every other party.

    Furthermore, I would be amazed by your hypocrisy if it wasn’t so typical of Progressives, who in NZ have crippled our education system, destroyed the objectivity of our media, betrayed the craft of journalism, built a huge welfare addicted voting population all with the intent of destroying democracy and making NZ a one party state.

    I have nothing but contempt for your posturing as someone who cares for democracy and choice when you and your ilk have worked assiduously for decades to destroy both of those things in NZ. As you would destroy them in Singapore if by any chance you gained a political foot hold there.

    “at least they make a pretense of trying to differentiate.”

    Yeah. Pretense. That’s quite OK with you ain’t it?? Sorry Pablo. I want the real thing. I want a choice between traditional Conservative values, small government, low taxes, maximum individual freedom and responsibility on the one hand and Progressivism on the other. You deny me that choice at the same time as you moan about Singapore being a one party state. Good grief, my opinion of academics is bad enough already. Please try not to make it any worse.

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  50. kiki (425 comments) says:

    You can thank god singapore has the guts to stand up to these evil progressives!

    http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2148&Itemid=181

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  51. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Singapore is a one party state- Lie.

    There is in fact about 19 parties in Singapore. No law stops any Singaporean voting for these parties if they so wish. If they had a corrupt authoritarian state, Singaporeans have the freedom to vote it out tomorrow.

    There’s no huge conspiracy as leftists like to obsess over. Singaporeans do not vote for the other 18 parties because they’re mostly socialist/ Marxist/ progressive, and they simply do not like them.

    For chrissakes, if they want to see what they get voting for Progressives they only have to look south to the crime ridden welfare corrupted so called “democracies” of Australia and NZ.

    Virtual one party states where Progressives have worked assiduously to remove very political choice (and almost every other choice) that existed. Where citizens who might want a small government that is driven by traditional Conservative values have no choice, because there is only Labour and a bunch of poseurs calling themselves National (or Liberals.. gag) who in terms of politics, are virtually indistinguishable from Labour.

    Don’t talk to me about one party states. Jezuz, my opinion of university academics is low enough already. You don’t need to drive it any further down.

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  52. kiki (425 comments) says:

    Dear Mr Redbaiter

    Saddam was just trying to prevent those evil progressives from destroying his country and implementing that evil progressive stuff like freedom of press and woman’s rights and what did you say when a country that allows homosexuals,sells porn and has a huge drug problem invaded and imposed it’s form of government on it?

    Well I found one of your quotes

    Redbaiter (7880) Vote: 28 13 Says:
    February 2nd, 2009 at 10:12 am
    “something everyone should be happy about.”

    ..and thanks of course to the courage, unfailing dedication and persistence of George W. Bush who pressed on regardless of the politically motivated whining of the cowards and treasonists and defeatists on the left and elsewhere, who have done all they can to undermine the success of the mission for democracy in Iraq.

    On Iraq, George W Bush and all of those small countries and leaders who stood by him are heroes.

    It would have pleased me to see you write that Mr. Farrar.

    Do you believe in democracy? do you know what democracy is?

    Is democracy allowed for some but not others

    Do you believe in freedom?

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  53. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Yeah thats so right Kiki. Lee Kuan Yew is just another Saddam Hussein. Way out the back of Jurong there’s hidden graveyards containing the bodies of the thousands of Singaporeans he murdered for dissent. You pathetic fuckwit.

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  54. kiki (425 comments) says:

    Mr Redbaiter

    “I want a choice between traditional Conservative values, small government, low taxes, maximum individual freedom and responsibility on the one hand and Progressivism on the other. You deny me that choice at the same time as you moan about Singapore being a one party state.”

    I ask

    Can you have traditional Conservative values and maximum individual freedom?

    What is a traditional Conservative anyway?

    Would they legalise cannabis as that is about personal freedom?

    Saudis are traditional but would you agree to polygamy?

    Would you accept a Maori chief in a feather cloak as your leader that’s pretty traditional.

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  55. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Can you have traditional Conservative values and maximum individual freedom?”

    A question that signals your political perceptions are typical of those whose education and intellectual development have been crippled by Progressives. You’re the product of a one party state, and because of your innate ignorance, are bound to perpetuate it. That’s how socialism, aka totalitarianism, works.

    “Conservatism is the antidote to tyranny precisely because its principles are the founding principles.” –Mark Levin

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  56. Paul G. Buchanan (301 comments) says:

    Actually Russellbaiter, there are a number of unmarked grave sites or memorials around the island in which the corpses of political dissidents from the 1960s-1970s are interred or acknowledged–but no worries, because they were accused of being commies. And you do realise of course that the number of political parties listed on an official electoral role in an authoritarian state has zero relationship to those that actually get to openly contest any given election, since many of those listed are often “paper” parties listed by authoritarians to dupe, well, the likes of you into believing that political power is contested. I gave you a source to look at, so go on, screw up some courage and give it a look.

    Whatever the case, the bottom line remains: you prefer an authoritarian state to NZ, and you choose to ignore dictatorial sins simply because you wish to deny democratic voice to those you disagree with in your own country (presuming that you are a Kiwi) So, given your hatred of NZ and love of SG, what not move there? Unlike me, you have that choice and unlike me, you have the ideological motivation to do so. Or are you just a blustery windbag without the conviction to do anything more than rant from the safety of your computer about the fact that the world is not constructed in your own preferred (and quite fevered) image? Methinks the latter is the case.

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  57. kiki (425 comments) says:

    Sorry I flogged this from wiki but

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_conservatism#Tradition_and_custom

    Traditionalist conservatives believe that in order for universal truths and tradition to be utilized effectively in a society that society should be hierarchical with varying degrees and classes, each interdependent upon one another, in a civic communitarian organic unity. By acknowledging that each person is different, the traditionalist respects variety and difference in birth, circumstance, education, and morals. Traditionalists think that a hierarchical society allows for the protection of the whole of the community instead of at the expense of one particular group. Sound like a green commune.

    or

    Natural law and transcendent moral order
    One of the central principles of traditionalist conservatism is that natural law and a transcendent moral order govern man. Christ and His Word inform natural law and the universal truths of faith. It is through these universal truths of faith that man orders himself and the world around him. Most traditionalist conservatives associate with High Church Christianity, including T. S. Eliot who was an Anglo-Catholic and Russell Kirk who was a Roman Catholic.

    But I can’t see how doing what the pope tells you could be called freedom.

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  58. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “there are a number of unmarked grave sites or memorials around the island in which the corpses of political dissidents from the 1960s-1970s are interred or acknowledged–but no worries, because they were accused of being commies.”

    Ok. Let’s get it straight. You are alleging that Lee Kuan Yew murdered communist dissidents he perceived to be a political threat. Here’s your big chance. Make a name for yourself. Where’s the evidence??

    BTW, your “objective” link does not work, and I’ll bet my house that if it ever does, its just more left wing crap and as far from objective as most of the hate driven diatribe you pedal as objective commentary.

    ..and another BTW, you don’t know where I live, and its another indication of your failure of intellect that you and the rest of the brain dead left wing blogosphere would jump to the conclusion that some babbling half wit libertarian’s baseless presumptions as to who I might be are correct.

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  59. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Unlike me, you have that choice”

    Don’t give me that crap. There’s always a choice. You’ve already described it as an oasis. You like living there. You like living in a country you profess to despise at the same time as you demand that readers of Kiwiblog ascribe to you, because of your academic status, a degree of credibility above that of any other contributor here.

    In fact, you’re sending the bullshit meter completely off scale. Not the least with crazy allegations of murder against Lee Kuan Yew that you can’t prove, made up stuff about Singapore being a one party state when there’s in fact 19 parties, all at the same time as you slander me as a nutter because I think the POTUS should have to prove he was born there as the Constitution requires.

    In my experience, leftist academics can never pass objective scrutiny of their reasoning abilities, and this is just another instance.

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  60. Paul G. Buchanan (301 comments) says:

    Russell. You truly ARE a freak, and that last post is classic nutjob. But you are right about one thing: I got the link wrong. Here it is: http://www.theonlinecitizen.com

    As for your denial of the violent purges of the 1960s, I guess you will have to wait until the officially suppressed evidence sees the light of day. Until then you will need to come over and take the walking tour. As I said before: since you hate NZ so much, why not come up and join the fun in SG?

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  61. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    ” the officially suppressed evidence”

    Ha ha.. yeah, thought so. Same old same old.

    As for the link. Amnesty International- nuff said.

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  62. Brian Smaller (3,915 comments) says:

    I don’t think religion is a common factor – look at the bottom five.

    Pete George – you are taking the piss right? Four out of five are Islamic.

    “That and not living in tribal culture where warlords hold sway.”

    Never lived in Naenae or Wainui then Brian?

    Point taken. Yes – live almost next to Naenae College so know exactly what you mean.

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  63. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    Brian, that comment followed this post from Red:

    “Singapore at 3 on the list is mostly Buddhist and Muslim.”

    Yes. Both religions that promote morality.

    So I was inferring that religions weren’t promoting morality very well in the bottom five.
    Of course he had a response:

    Yeah, you only have to have been in any of those countries to know the reality of how religious they are in reality.

    So the reality is according to Red religion has the right influence only when it suits his argument. It’s the same with him on the media, if an article suits his purpose he posts it, if it doesn’t he rubbishes the source. Same with how he treats people who post. The consummate attackist (and contradictionist).

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  64. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    Where citizens who might want a small government that is driven by traditional Conservative values have no choice, because there is only Labour and a bunch of poseurs calling themselves National (or Liberals.. gag) who in terms of politics, are virtually indistinguishable from Labour.

    Red, no one is obliqued to create a political party that meets your ideals. But there’s nothing stopping them either. In fact why don’t you start a party which espouses the ideas you’d like to vote for? In many countries you wouldn’t get a look-in, but we (for our sins) have MMP. So give it a go.

    But I suspect if anyone dared to question or criticise the RedBaiter Tea Party, you’d see it as a conspiracy to shut you down and deny the oppressed masses the right to vote for you.

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