5:1 support for national standards
The Herald reports:
Like it: 73 per cent
Hate it: 14 per cent
This is a Nielsen online poll of Herald readers. Not as reliable as a phone poll, but I doubt the results would change a lot if it was.
The key findings:
Those in favour of national standards:
YES – 73.2%
NO – 13.8%
DON’T KNOW – 13%Do you understand how the new system works?
FULLY – 11.9%
PARTIALLY – 61.8%
NOT AT ALL – 26.2%The effect of national standards on your child:
GOOD – 53.9%
BAD – 36.5%
NONE – 9.5%Will standards create school ‘league tables’ for parents to plan their child’s schooling?
YES – 56.3%
NO – 17.1%
DON’T KNOW – 26.6%Would that be a bad thing?
YES – 38.8%
NO – 47.9%
DON’T KNOW – 13.4%
John Roughan also writes:
This week the New Zealand Educational Institute, the union that protects these people’s jobs, has put a bus on the road to oppose new national standards of reading, writing and maths that would be tested and the results reported in a way everyone could understand.
It is the last bit the NZEI really hates. Schools already test kids constantly for their own purposes but they are not supposed to share the results with parents. They’ll provide your child’s test scores if you know to ask but they’d rather you didn’t.
Roughan correctly ascertains that this is a battle about reporting, not about testing. Should parents get told how well their kids are doing in clear language? Labour and the unions say no.
All of this is anathema to educational theorists and the teachers’ unions that want us to believe no school is better than any other, no teacher weaker than any other, and no child fails in the system they control.
And they do control it. State education is a law unto itself. Industries are normally answerable either to voluntary paying customers or to elected governments depending on how they are financed.
The NZEI seems to think the only role for the Government is to shut up and pay the salaries of their members.
February 6th, 2010 at 9:56 am
You’re actually endorsing a tiny online poll of Auckland based Herald readers?
[DPF: It was not a web poll of anyone who happens to be on a website, but an online poll of Herald readers who have registered to be in a panel. YouGov use this method in the UK and are very reliable.
As I said it is not as reliable as phone polling, but with the massive 5:1 gap, I don't think a phone poll would be hugely different.]
February 6th, 2010 at 9:57 am
Err, isn’t the point that no one understands how the system is to be implemented. Would be good to re do this survey in 12 months time once parents and teachers have started to apply it.
February 6th, 2010 at 10:07 am
i think the polls shows that parents want to better better informed about how well their child is doing, how well their teacher and school performs and want the choice to send their kids where there is a decent standard of education.
Empowered parents and kids, no wonder the unions and socialists hate the idea.
February 6th, 2010 at 10:20 am
it doesn’t matter if it is a big or tiny little poll of auckland readers.
lets just get on with empowering parents and kids.
stuff the teacher unions.
February 6th, 2010 at 10:33 am
Danyl, do you seriously think any scientific poll would not produce exactly the same result?
This is an ideological battle between those who favour the rights of children to receive quality education and those who favour the rights of incompetent teachers (recently estimated to be about 30% of all teachers) to remain in front of those children.
The Labour Party and their teacher union delegates have always been on the side of incompetent teachers.
This is a debate whose time has come. Let’s have it.
Let New Zealand parents see which political parties care about their children and which don’t.
February 6th, 2010 at 11:21 am
So 88% of the people polled don’t fully understand the issue?
Yet you posted this just weeks ago claiming it should be in every newsroom – not when the poll agrees with your own views now huh?
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2010/01/media_and_polls.html
February 6th, 2010 at 11:33 am
Time to put the funding into the hands of parents with a voucher system and parents can choose to send there kids to any school that will take them.
February 6th, 2010 at 11:52 am
John Roughan has certainly given the NZEI a serve this morning
http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/02/roughan-on-teachers.html
I guess that the poll reinforces the perception that if NZEI thinks that National Standards are bad, then they’re probably ver good
February 6th, 2010 at 12:43 pm
Great article in the Herald today where John Hattie is interviewed. Maybe I’m missing something but can someone please explain
1. Why parents of advanced students and way behind students- will accept their children receiving less resources. If you had a really smart kid, why would you want to stay in the State system if they are going to be ignored?
2. What it has to do with teacher performance? Progress will be a composite of factors, mainly the previous years teachers efforts unless you test in term 4. There are much better ways of measuring teacher performance (how about asking the kids and parents?)
3. How are the results to be moderated and who is going to stop rorting the system?
4. How are we going to stop teaching to the test?
4. Reading and maths are easy to measure, but how are we going to agree on what constitutes (and how do you rank) progress in writing based on one piece?.
5. What is wrong with the ASttle system? I never had trouble understanding it.
6. Why would anyone be so reckless and stupid as to base your schooling decisions on an arbitary rating table?
7. How much is this going to cost? Surely the Education Department must have some figures.
February 6th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
Over the opposition of Teachers’ Unions the Australian Labour Government has introduced a system of league tables which is available through a web site called “myschool”. The NZ Labour Party through Trevor Mallard have adopted the teacher union agenda which is deeply opposed to this.. With good preparation the Key Government should win hands down on this issue but it needs careful planning. You can be sure the Union and Mallard are plotting deep into the night on ow to take on the Government – on this issue. The end point for the Government and the public would be to “drive” the teachers’ union out of education policy and planning.
February 6th, 2010 at 2:32 pm
tvb- are you saying that the object of this exercise is to reduce union influence? If so its a very cumbersome way of achieving an obtuse goal.
If you wanted to do that, just ask to Ed Department not to consult with them
February 6th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
Slightly off topic, but related.
A young woman phoned talkback yesterday and was claiming that the 17/18 year olds in ChCh who shot the bus shouldn’t be prosecuted because they didn’t know any better and what they needed was hugs, love and understanding. She claimed it was impossible for people coming from poor backgrounds and with some criminal behaviour in the family to know right from wrong and that shooting a bus isn’t acceptable behaviour.
Where did she get this marvelleous wisdom from?
Thats right. She started off the phone call by stating her mum was a teacher.
February 6th, 2010 at 3:17 pm
If this was an industry like food producers not being keen on nutrition standards being graded and made availible to consumers all hell would break loose and rightly so……so whats the difference with education?Its a service….(not a right) and its perfecctly valid for the consumers of that service to ask questions about what its delivering and wheather they should shop elsewhere…
Can you hear the whine building up from the Lefties already..?
;-0
February 6th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
Roughan actually discussed how bad teachers don’t get sacked and wise parents just make sure their kids don’t end up in those classes.
I raised this a couple of days ago and was berrated by the left that this is impossible, because all teachers have to operate to certain standards and some get dismissed all the time. They used the example of the list on the Ministry website of deregistered teachers.
I think unless they are a kiddy fiddler or drug dealing it would be a very long and difficult process to remove a teacher from a school.
February 6th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
touché james.
its too difficult to have food standards, i wouldnt be fair.
lets just not have them.
February 6th, 2010 at 3:49 pm
Some relevant reading folks….
http://teachersunionexposed.com/protecting.cfm
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2_15_06_JS.html
http://www.macnn.com/articles/07/02/16/jobs.dell.share.stage/ (A great article where the CEOs of Apple and Dell blast teachers unions)
Don’t think NZ is unique in the political left leaving no stone unturned to keep thier representation in the indonctrination, sorry, education dept.
February 6th, 2010 at 4:03 pm
Roughan actually discussed how bad teachers don’t get sacked and wise parents just make sure their kids don’t end up in those classes.
What Roughan didn’t do was explain how the proposed standards would have bad teachers sacked in way way that present systems for assessing teachers don’t. It’s comforting bullshit, basically.
February 6th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
Great article in the Herald today where John Hattie is interviewed. Maybe I’m missing something but can someone please explain …
All good questions b, especially as regards costs — but the Herald is much too busy doing vox pops with a panel of readers who freely confess they don’t understand the topic.
Welcome to the news.
February 6th, 2010 at 4:08 pm
These national standards are better than nothing, but do national ever intend to get rid of school zoning? So what are parents going to do if they find their school doesn’t measure up to the standards… it not like they can enroll their kid in another school unless they are wealthy enough to shift on a whim or pay for private education.
February 6th, 2010 at 4:48 pm
The teachers’ Union are placing themselves against a popular policy of the elected Government and are supported by the “loyal” Opposition. Assuming the Government succeeds then the Union will be left in tatters and so will the Labour Party.
February 6th, 2010 at 4:49 pm
These national standards are better than nothing, but do national ever intend to get rid of school zoning? So what are parents going to do if they find their school doesn’t measure up to the standards… it not like they can enroll their kid in another school unless they are wealthy enough to shift on a whim or pay for private education.
Yes, they can, actually. It happens all the time.
Only a minority of schools, most of them in Auckland, operate a restrictive enrolment scheme (which they’re required to do to preserve the right of children who live locally to attend their local school). In general, New Zealand’s rules on school choice are liberal by world standards — far more so than, say, than those of the US public education system.
As I noted above, this whole debate sometimes seems to proceed on the basis of myth.
February 6th, 2010 at 5:29 pm
Good links Slightly.
This from one of your links says it all
“One New Jersey union representative was even more blunt about the work his organization does to keep bad teachers in the classroom, saying: “I’ve gone in and defended teachers who shouldn’t even be pumping gas.” “
February 6th, 2010 at 10:10 pm
And you want to bring in the US standards system Southern Raider. You are doing nearly as well as Tolley. Pretty soon our results will be as bad as theirs.
February 6th, 2010 at 10:16 pm
And have a look at the comments from John Hattie – John Keys mentor on standards – especially the bit where he said it is being so badly implemented that Key should scrap it all and start again:- http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10624412&pnum=0
February 6th, 2010 at 10:30 pm
A proper poll – one which asked questions such as “National Standards systems around the world have led to reduced levels of achievement – do you support the introduction of National Standards in NZ?” or “National Standards often lead to a narrowing of the curriculum i.e. less teaching of the arts, physical education, science, social studies, and the like – do you support the introduction of National Standards in NZ?” would have provided different results that the Heralds obviously biased one.
[DPF: Umm your examples are in fact examples of what would be a very biased question]
February 6th, 2010 at 11:56 pm
Russell Brown – You obviously havn’t seen how non-sensical school zones can be. The whole argument that local kids should be automatically enrolled to local schools is BS. Fact is, wealthy people buy houses in popular school areas just to get their kids to those schools. Look on trade-me for all houses for sale in good school zones, you will notice these as they will say they are zoned for those schools. Zones also distort the housing market, being in a good school zone can add 10% to your house value.
There are cases in middle class suburbia outside of auckland where you can find yourself in a zone for a school that is twice as far from your home. Zoning is used to protect bad schools and bad students.
February 7th, 2010 at 12:58 am
My understanding of zoning is that it protects the right of kids to attend their closest school. If this is incorrect, I would welcome informed correction. The fact that wealthy people do what they do and utilise their wealth to gain “unfair advantage” (and I don’t share that view) is irrelevant. And the fact that some areas are dealt a poor hand with zoning does not negate the benefit to the overwhelming majority.
I have posted a comment on Roughan’s nonsense article. I didn’t save it so I can’t reproduce here but it should appear there in due course.
I would suggest that the admission of 88% of respondents that they don’t know what they are talking about pretty well sums up why we have experts to design good policy, not the general public.
And let’s not forget the response of the government to the pro-smacking referendum – sorry, we know better.
February 7th, 2010 at 1:40 am
There’s nothing wrong with more reporting and letting parents know where their kids stand. But let’s not kid ourselves that it is the magic bullet to solve poor results. Parents who never cared about their kids’ education in the past aren’t going to start caring once the standards come in. The parents who will want to change schools are the type of parents who already know what the quality of the school is like. And teachers who aren’t all that good at raising kids to the required standards aren’t going to lose their jobs over it. They’ll just be given an hour or two of Professional Development and then hidden from view as much as possible.
February 7th, 2010 at 6:13 am
Zoning is not about protecting the rights of families to send kids to the closest local school it is abou smoothing demand for schools and forcing families to send kids to less desirable schools in the area that may or may not be closer to the family home.
National standards are about measuring the achievement of schools and teachers in teaching children to a desired level of competence in core subjects.
The reason the implementation of national standards is being bolloxed up is probably due to several issue 1. would be Tolley 2. would be the MoE 3. would be teachers unions 4. would be the Labour party machinations in collusion with 3.
What can’t be denied however is overwhelming support from Parents for greater transparency in children’s educational achievement.
The public servants in the education sector who are aligned with the outdated socialist beast on teachers unions need to suck it and get with the program that their customers are demanding.
February 7th, 2010 at 9:18 am
Why not let schools select which students to take? As was said before, most schools would take in any student they can, and the ones that enforce their zones are the ones where parents are wealthy enough to abuse the system. Once zoning is out, wealthy parents of misbehaving children will not have any advantage over poorer parents with good children.
One other “benefit” behind school zoning is it keeps inteligent children from poorer families out of the elite public schools with the best facilities making them have to make do with the poorer schools inferior facilities.
Therefore the only children to benefit from zoning are wealthy parents… not the overwhelming majority as you say Luc Hansen. the children of poorer parents gain absolutely no benefit from zoning.
The policy behind school zoning is based on protecting bad schools.
February 7th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
The fact that 88% of people dont understand the standards is a concern.
I believe the idea of standards is a good idea. The problem is with the implementation. Do people realise that it is still left up to ‘teacher judgement’ when you rank a child according to the Standards. So how does a school in Dunedin make sure it has the same as a school in Nelson or Auckland.
http://ozymandiaswarning.com/open-letter-to-mr-john-key-on-education/
Most schools are already doing more than what the new standards require and the idea of honest reporting is like trying to find an honest politician. It wont happen.
The reality is that the standards have been rushed through, forced on schools without the proper foundation and they wont make a difference to our students.
February 7th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
Most schools are already doing more than what the new standards require and the idea of honest reporting is like trying to find an honest politician. It wont happen.
It certainly won’t happen if the news media start making league tables. And unfortunately, they will.
February 8th, 2010 at 9:01 pm
DPF: Umm your examples are in fact examples of what would be a very biased question
Yeah, right. Perhaps it would actually be providing the poll responder with the knowledge that they need to answer the question. But you wouldn’t want that would you Farrar, because you’d rather post the ignorant opinions of the half-wits who lap up the lies and propaganda from your Lord and Master Optimist Prime. Wouldn’t you.
February 9th, 2010 at 10:06 am
The headline should have been “88% of people don’t understand what the new national standards are about”. That basically invalidates all the other answers.