Fran on ETS

April 28th, 2010 at 7:21 am by David Farrar

Fran O’Sullivan writes:

John Key’s refusal to postpone the implementation of the next phase of the emissions trading scheme () is setting the scene for a ‘winter of discontent’ with New Zealand business.

In just two days the perception of the Key Government as a climate change laggard has morphed into an unwitting leader as our major trading partners, like Australia and the United States, prepare to defer their own schemes leaving this country out in front of the pack instead of the “fast follower” the PM promised.

The decision by Kevin Rudd to delay his ETS until 2013 does place pressure on NZ. It is almost ironic that National is at risk of accidentally achieving Helen Clark’s aim of being a global leader rather than a fast follower in terms of responses to climate change.

Of course the Australian ETS has never been passed into law – it is easy to delay something not yet legislated for.

The NZ ETS was passed into law by Labour in 2008, and them amended by National in 2009. It is already in effect for sectors such as forestry.

The Auckland Regional Chamber of Commerce has been adding fuel to the fire by asking its membership to email Key directly to ask for the July 1 cost hikes to be deferred.

The chamber reckons it will increase electricity prices by 5 per cent and add 4c a litre to the cost of petrol and diesel. Its boss Michael Barnett reckons the cost hikes will jeopardise the profitability of small to medium businesses as they get back on a growth curve after the lengthy domestic recession.

I’ll have to read the ETS legislation to check, but am unsure whether or not the Government can defer the entry of those sectors, without amending or repealing the ETS law. If a law change is needed, it couldn’t realistically be done by 1 July.

Tags: , ,

76 Responses to “Fran on ETS”

  1. Pongo (371 comments) says:

    They voted themselves a pension in 7 minutes in the dead of night I am sure they can suspend it. Its not just the business community who are flumoxed by the madness of Nationals position on this, it will be the Nats light bulb/shower head moment. All this so Grosser can pompously strut the world stage and prevent the rather unstable Smith from having a breakdown.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. tvb (4,207 comments) says:

    The costs of this will probably be easily be off-set by tax cuts in the budget. Meanwhile carbon has a cost and business needs to take steps away from it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. Chicken Little (793 comments) says:

    Not just a winter of discontent for New Zealand business – Once most kiwis realise the true cost of the ETS for no measurable return to them, the climate or good old mother earth, Jonkey may find himself in a little bother.

    Of course, his good mate Iwi on the other hand can start cashing in all those forestry credits and get on with laughing at the rest of us.

    Speaking of carbon credits – I can buy for 10 cents a tonne in the US, here it’s $18 per tonne apparently – nice markup if you can get it. Someone must have worked out a way to do the swap…hmmm….I’ll just have a chat to Lord Oxburgh and see if any of his Italian contacts can come up with anything.

    Selling trace gas to fools – National has my vote in the next election – Oh Yeah.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. Chicken Little (793 comments) says:

    tvb – Carbon has a cost ????? Fuck mate educate yourself would ya? Carbon is the fourth most abundant element in the UNIVERSE.

    God, idiots like you make me mad.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. dad4justice (7,776 comments) says:

    ETS = a no-brainer con.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. rg (197 comments) says:

    I admire your staunchness David but this Government does not deserve it. The have had every mandate and possibility and now excellent excuse to stop the ETS. They could do it as easily as signing a declaration of rights. The fact that they are not going to should send a shiver down the spine of every thinking NZer, God help our nation from this Government, they know not what they do. In fact there actions over this ETS is inexplicable, if you could shed some light as to why they are so hell bent on destroying our country for the sake of the few loonies left who believe in global warming I would be interested.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. tvb (4,207 comments) says:

    Carbon does have a cost especially oil and coal which are both finite resources. The next century will see the demand for oil and coal soar especially when China and India start to take their share and our share of those finite resources. They are both nuclear armed. The abundance we have enjoyed over the last 100 years will sharply decline and prices will significantly rise. The carbon based economy as we have known it over the last 100 years is finished.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. Inventory2 (10,100 comments) says:

    We’re doing a bit of polling of our own on the ETS – fear not though DPF; we have no plans to muscle in on Curia ;-)

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/04/scientific-polling.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. Angus (536 comments) says:

    Germany has kicked it for touch as well.

    According to Der Spiegel:
    Merkel Abandons Aim of Binding Climate Agreement

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,691194,00.html

    By Dirk Kurbjuweit, Christian Schwägerl and Gerald Traufetter

    Frustrated by the climate change conference in December, German Chancellor Angela Merkel is quietly moving away from her goal of a binding agreement on limiting climate change to 2 degrees Celsius. She has also sent out signals at the EU level that she no longer supports the idea of Europe going it alone.

    H.T – tbr.cc

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. Murray (8,838 comments) says:

    Nice spin from Fran but its not just business, its everyone who will be fotting the bill for John Keys windmill tilting.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. KiwiGreg (3,176 comments) says:

    “is already in effect for sectors such as forestry.”

    Yup and has already destroyed so much value for this country it isnt funny.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. LauraNorda (27 comments) says:

    One really has to wonder what this bunch of Tossers who promised so much at election time, and yet has delivered so little, has done to increase the wealth of this country. Giving away or transferring a large part of this country’s wealth to minority groups who will benefit themselves and not the country as a whole can’t be increasing wealth and nor can this loopy ETS which definitely ain’t going to benefit the country, one iota. I have yet to see Shonkey and his idiot child Nick, give any balanced or clear argument as to how this ETS or the transfer of wealth that Chris Finlayson is so keen to redistribute to minority groups, will benefit this country at all. After all, the mixed breeds who call themselves “indigenous people” are going to be the big winners, with what Finlayson has bequeathed them on the country’s behalf, by way of forests, with stuff all benefit to the country as a whole. Contemptuous liars, all of them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. Chicken Little (793 comments) says:

    tvb –

    So how is any of that attached to a carbon tax?

    What will the carbon tax do to change any of your statements above?

    Were will the new tax go tvb?

    Will the new tax make any difference whatsoever to the climate?

    National are openly and blatantly stealing money from the citizens of this country for NOTHING.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. Mr Nobody NZ (397 comments) says:

    The lesson most NZ’ers learnt from from Smacking debate is that John Key and the National Party will do exactly what he they with out any regard for the citizens of this country and I have no doubt the ETS will be exactly the same.

    I am so disappointed with this government.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. berend (1,634 comments) says:

    DPF: It is almost ironic that National is at risk of accidentally achieving Helen Clark’s aim of being a global leader rather than a fast follower in terms of responses to climate change.

    Accidentally? There’s no accidentals with this Manchurian candidate. John Key didn’t listen to parents, and he listens to nobody. Anyone remembers: “The National Party isn’t about tax increases, it’s about decreases.” Yeah right, until to got into office.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,797 comments) says:

    tvb
    “Carbon does have a cost especially oil and coal which are both finite resources. “

    Sorry mate, you’re flat out wrong. Oil in particular has been shown to be not finite. That is to say, there is substantial evidence to suggest there is continual formation of oil, one way or another, within the crust of the earth. Further more, as exploration and recovery technology improves the amount of accessible reserves grows each year. Your short sighted gloomy outlook fails to factor in, for example, any change in US policy on drilling and recovering it’s own coastal and Alaskan reserves – which will happen the moment the black arsed big eared bean pole is ejected from the white House..

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. Murray (8,838 comments) says:

    Oil is finite you say… perhaps we should start melting down politicians who wont listen and experiment with the remains as an alternate fuel source.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. John Boscawen (146 comments) says:

    David, rg put it very politely when he (she?) said he admired your staunchness. I have been wondering when you might finally wake up and cover this story. Rudd saying yesterday ” It’s very plain that the correct course of action is to extend the implementation date” thankfully makes it too difficult for you to ignore it any longer.

    You say you are yet to read the legislation and wonder if the government can delay the introduction of the additional sectors. ( which by the way is virtually the whole economy)

    Well yes they can, but only by amending the legislation. And it could pass it through the House in any 24 hour period it choose.

    Sadly for Kiwiblog and its readers you undermine your whole credibility to say that if a law change is needed it couldn’t realistically be done by 1 July. What utter rubbish. The Act party has been making it abundantly clear to National for several months that we would be more than prepared to give them the votes to defer the legislation until our major trading partners have caught up. I have issued several press releases and given numerous speeches saying exactly that.

    Lets be under no misconprehension. The ETS is a tax on energy. It is deliberately desiged to increase the price of electricity and petrol, and because of the flow on effect through the economy of every thing else. All prices will go up and everyone will pay. it is that simple.

    Already electrcity in Australia is cheaper than in NZ, and our living standards and incomes are 25% lower and the ETS is designed to furthur increase that gap.

    Sadly there is one group of businesses that will not be able to pass their costs on and that is our exporters. They take a world price, and our government intends making it even harder for them to compete overseas, as if it is not already tough enough, and at a time of a world wide recession, and major unemployment.

    [DPF: The Govt could amend the law before 1 July using urgency, but I am not sure it would be a good look to bypass a select committee process]

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. Pete George (22,846 comments) says:

    Lets be under no misconprehension.

    You’re not sneakily suggesting it’s some sort of con do you John? Misconprehension could be a good word for it all.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. Peter (1,578 comments) says:

    Voted National.

    I can’t think why. We appear to have got Labour again.

    Very disappointed.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. American Gardener (554 comments) says:

    Abiogenic petroleum origin is an alternative hypothesis to the prevailing theory of biological petroleum origin. Most popular in the Soviet Union between the 1950s and 1980s, the abiogenic hypothesis has little support among contemporary petroleum geologists, who argue that abiogenic petroleum does not exist in significant amounts and that there is no indication that an application of the hypothesis is or has ever been of commercial value – wikipedia

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. Nick Kearney (1,068 comments) says:

    I am seriously thinking of a campaign called “forget the five”. It would be based around all householders paying all but five per cent of their power bills from 1 July. The five per cent is the ETS increase.

    If we had 100,000 people who used Mercury Energy (as an example) agreeing to “forget the five”, on an average monthly power bill of $200 that would be $1,000,000.00 (one million) each month that Mercury wouldn’t be getting. Mercury could/would never cut off supply to 100,000 homes, yet they would have paid GST on the $1,000.000.00 and so would be out of pocket in the amount of $125,000.00 – the government would have the windfall! Mercury wouldn’t take that for very long.

    What do people think about “forget the five”? It could apply to Genesis and any other electricity retailer through out the country. It would work on strength of numbers.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. Pete George (22,846 comments) says:

    Nick, that sort of campaign is difficult to get going – especially where you get hit with late payment charges, and with the possible threat of having your power cut off.

    Power companies could end up benefiting from the extra late payment charges.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. Whoops (139 comments) says:

    “Lets be under no misconprehension. The ETS is a tax on energy. It is deliberately desiged to increase the price of electricity and petrol, and because of the flow on effect through the economy of every thing else. All prices will go up and everyone will pay. it is that simple.”

    John. No sh1t sherlock. with the clarification that it’s targeted at Carbon rates of energy… THAT’S THE EXPLICIT POINT OF AN ETS. It’s a PRICE SIGNAL. You know… the MARKET.

    I thought an ACT MP would know more about Market mechanisms… I guess not.

    As for this…”and our government intends making it even harder for them to compete overseas”… Are you totally clueless about access to market issues, or do you just chose to ignore them to rile up the braindead ACT voters?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. Whoops (139 comments) says:

    Adolf; ” Oil in particular has been shown to be not finite.”

    Proof please.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. starboard (2,475 comments) says:

    John Boscawen (109) Says:

    April 28th, 2010 at 8:42 am

    good man Johnny boy….you’ll get my vote.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. Nick Kearney (1,068 comments) says:

    Pete, I realise that, but I doubt after Folole Muliaga the power companies will be too quick to cut supply. The late payment charges can be dealt with as the power bill is paid by the due date, but the government’s 5% tax is not.

    Whoops, price signals should be left to demand and supply, not government lawmakers.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. Razork (375 comments) says:

    I posted this in GD, but it’s probably more relevant here.

    My understanding is that the govt are aware the “science” behind the ETS is flawed and privately acknowledge that it won’t make much, if any differance, to the climate.

    BUT, they believe that many of our current and potential trading partners will go this way and they think that by being an early adapter some parties in other countries will promote NZ as a premier partner.

    It’s all about that longer term trading view, not the climate.
    Ironically the other parties in these trading party countries promoting NZ will most likely be the leftie sandle wearing tree huggers.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. Pongo (371 comments) says:

    @whoops, with no other country following our approach it cant possibly effect access to markets, are the Aussies, French, Americans going to block access because we dont have an ETS when they dont have one.
    My power company proudly boasts all its energy it provides me is renewable, its an odd price signal.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. mawm (211 comments) says:

    John B – I admire your opposition to the ETS but the time has come for your party of principle to stand up for its principles and leave this government. Labour cannot be an Opposition to a party that has stolen its manifesto, so ACT needs to become the voice of opposition in our Parliament.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    Sorry mate, you’re flat out wrong. Oil in particular has been shown to be not finite. That is to say, there is substantial evidence to suggest there is continual formation of oil, one way or another, within the crust of the earth.

    Sorry that’s nonsense. Sure new oil and gas is being produced at a very slow rate, just like it has for hundreds of millions of years. But the oil and gas we’re tapping now has accumulated over a very long time. If the earth was producing at a useful rate, surely we would have seen fields replenishing themselves? But we don’t. The North Sea is full of depleted and capped wells.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. Whoops (139 comments) says:

    Pongo… do you think the French farmers need an excuse to call for bans on NZ produce? Do you think the UK supermarkets will argue with their customers based on something read in the newspapers (true or not) about produce shipped from the other side of the world?

    It’s not about inter-government blocking (trade barriers). It’s commercial blocks that NZ producers are worried about.

    The ETS (and it’s far from perfect) is a form of insurance.

    It’s a price signal to the consumers. Worried about price of petrol? Buy a more efficient car. Drive less. Worried about the cost of electricity? Insulate your house. etc…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. davidp (3,540 comments) says:

    People talking about Labour not learning anything from their election loss… While the country has moved on, they’re still proposing high taxes, wasteful spending, and nanny state legislation.

    But the trouble is that National don’t seem to have learned anything from Labour’s loss either. The costs of the ETS are that it will make our exporters uncompetitive, cause a loss of growth in the economy, lead to a lower standard of living for every NZer except a handful of carbon traders, and increase unemployment. The benefits of the ETS are zero. Zip. None, except that it allows a few politicians to feel morally superior while they strut the world stage. So the ETS fails a cost-benefit analysis by such a large margin that there is no question it should be ditched. But National seem to be determined to forge on regardless. And they’re pissing off all their supporters at the same time.

    The other problem they have at the moment is the Law Commission alcohol report. Most of it is nuts. But the media are reporting the report’s recommendations as being proposed law changes. National really need to come out and reject the whole report, and let it be known it is up to the government to control the legislative agenda rather than a group of unelected lawyers. Why are people talking about the drinking age being a conscience vote? This has been voted on twice recently. There is no reason for the issue to be rehashed a third time in parliament, and especially no reason it should be put to a third vote because Geoffrey Palmer wants it to be. This risks being another shower head issue, and National need to make it quite clear that they’re not just a milder version of the Greens.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. Nick Kearney (1,068 comments) says:

    Yes whoops it is a price signal. And price is the best mechanism for influence. But price is not something governments should dictate. Price should be left to demand and supply.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. Nick Kearney (1,068 comments) says:

    The other important cost here is one imposed through inflation. The Reserve Bank has said a number of times that the ETS will cause inflation to push up close to the top of the band, this will cause interest rates to rise, including mortgage rates. That will leave less money to save and spend. At this time, it is utter and complete madness for families to have to bear this.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    I’ve noted that every time a new group has come out against the ETS and provided as evidence increased costs, impact on competitiveness, increased inflation, trading partners stepping back, corrupted ‘science’ etc.. that Key and Smith simply say “We’re not delaying the ETS”. No reason, no justification offered. Simply that NZ is not delaying.

    When will one of the MSM’s press-release re-publishers, formerly known as reporters, start asking this most basic of questions: Why are we doing this?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. Pita (367 comments) says:

    Whoops: “Are you totally clueless about access to market issues” price will and always has determined market access issues particularly when it comes to commodities…the suggestion that the customers will stop buying en masse has no basis in reality.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    Anyone seen this doing the rounds?

    “The madness of the Government’s new carbon tax is that New Zealanders will be the only people in the world paying it. It will drive up the costs of living and undermine the competitiveness of New Zealand business for negligible environmental gain.” Nick Smith – Friday, 25 November 2005

    http://www.nick4nelson.co.nz/nelson-marlborough-farming-december-column.html

    It’s from a release I got through Facebook from the NZ Climate Science Coalition, and the release is also up at the Briefing Room and other places.

    Talk about irony. That’s exactly what this government is going to do.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    National are abusing the trust placed in their government. They know pissed-off National voters are more likely to flee to ACT, so no net loss to their coalition. I’d like to see ACT rattle their saber a bit on this.

    National also know that they can install a new tax and blame the economic fallout on the lingering impact of the global financial crisis. Come the year end, they’ll be trumpeting their tax reductions of 1-April and post 2010 budget, while too few Kiwis will make the connection between ACC increases and the globally absurd ETS both of which allow the government of the day to dig further into our pockets.

    And as an aside, can anyone see any government, save perhaps for an ACT-led one, abolishing the ETS once its coffers have begun to fill with the fruit of my/our productivity?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. Whoops (139 comments) says:

    Pita; MFAT are advising the government based on what they’re seeing in our markets around the world. The government listens to its officials. Sadly (for you) it doesn’t get too much of its guidance from blogs.

    Price determines access? Ever heard of something called the European Communities?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. Whoops (139 comments) says:

    Hi Fletch. Welcome to 28 April.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    Whoops, oh, did someone mention it yesterday on here? Sometimes I can’t read all the comments :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. Repton (769 comments) says:

    Whoops, price signals should be left to demand and supply, not government lawmakers.

    Externality

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    Dear Go-it-alone-John,

    All your mates are deserting you. Sarkozy has sidestepped. Kev has kicked it to touch. Angela has abandoned it. Senators are slinking away.

    The list goes on. But, apparently, so do you.

    All of us know the king’s climate-clothes have never really existed.

    So now, rather than being part of a global “Calendar PM’s photo-shoot”, you’ve found yourself standing naked and alone on the world stage.

    Can you hear the sniggers?

    It’s not too late. Stop this ETS madness while you can.

    Yours sincerely,
    krazykiwi

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. Pita (367 comments) says:

    Whoops: Thanks for your considered opinion…after many years in the primary industry, involved in export trade at a relatively high level, I am indeed familiar with both MFAT and the European communities…fortunately supermarkets (food outlets generally) are still privately owned and the price function plays a significant part.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. Nick Kearney (1,068 comments) says:

    Repton, CO2 has been around for millions of years. It has always been an externality. Why are we suddenly factoring it into our price mechanisms now? The externality you refer to in your link is pollution but CO2 is not a pollutant.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    but CO2 is not a pollutant

    No it’s not… unless Lisa Jackson of Environmental Protection Agency, acting under orders from her boss, decides to arbitrarily classify Co2 as a pollutant in order to subvert the US’s democratic process.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. John Boscawen (146 comments) says:

    David Farrar ( 8.42) you say the government could amend it, but it would not be a good look to bypass the select committee process.

    David, it is not “could”, but “must”.

    The ETS legislation is based on the “operative” Australian scheme. There is no “operative” scheme, and Kevin Rudd confirmed yesterday that there will be no operative scheme until 2013 at the earliest at best, (and more likely never). So if National wish to proceed on 1 July they are going to need to pass legislation before then to get around the little problem that there is no operative Australain scheme on which to base their various industrial allocations on. The fact that Treasury advised Nick Smith not to base our legislation on an non-operative Australain scheme must be of little comfort to Treasury officials.

    Act’s solution is to give them the votes to postpone. With Angela Merkel now saying Europe can no longer continue to go it alone, John Key and Nick Smith are taking us where no other country is prepared to go.

    To Whoops I do understand electricity markets. The way the ETS works is that Geneisis pay the tax on their emisisons from coal and gas at Huntley ( as do Contact at Otahuhu and Taranaki) and add it to the price they offer electricity to the market. With Genesis setting the wholesale price of electrcitiy over 80% of the time, the wholesale equilbrium price is then set higher ( say 11 cents per unit, rather than 10 cents) and all the generators receive 11 cents regardless of whether they pay the tax or not). Meridian gets paid more for its electricity, but doesn’t pay for its emissions as it doesn’t have any. Windfall profits of several hundred million result, and all New Zealanders pay. The elderly pay, families pay, and businesses pay.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. kaya (1,360 comments) says:

    rg – “if you could shed some light as to why they are so hell bent on destroying our country for the sake of the few loonies left who believe in global warming I would be interested.”

    My old dad used to say “when you see something that seems to make no logical sense follow the money, that’s where the answer will come from.”

    I wonder who is benefiting financially from trading bullshit?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    I wonder who is benefiting financially from trading bullshit?

    kaya – have a read of this: Climate Money – Bigger Money Moves In.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. malcolm (2,000 comments) says:

    Scrap the ETS because it far too complicated. Just slap a carbon tax on fuels and coal at source and offset this with a reduction in personal and company tax. Simple. Forget about negative taxes for forestry etc – it’s too complicated for too little gain and forestry is happening anyway without distorting incentives. Tell the farming sector they’ve got 10 years to show some progress on low methane cows (there probably won’t be many sheep left in 10 years time). And leave it at that.

    If NZ can’t get an electricity market to operate efficiently then it sure as hell won’t get an emissions trading market to work.

    Oh and every bloody ad on the TV for heatpumps should have to finish with this statement “If your house is poorly insulated and/or draughty, then do yourself a favour and spend some time/money on that before you bolt on a noisy heatpump. Insulations lasts forever, heatpumps not so much. Oh and don’t be a moron and wait for the government to pay you some of your own money to get off your arse and think about this.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. Viking2 (11,130 comments) says:

    Sorry DPF, but you and the National Party are 4 years at least behind the game here. That’s about how long minimum that many of us have been telling of this rort. You need to read more that doesn’t come out of the mouths of politicians and spinmiesters.

    I guess its the old story, we can lead a horse to water but we can’t make it drink.
    (not that I’m being rude and calling you a horse. Just a figure of speech.)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. Chuck Bird (4,682 comments) says:

    David you say it is not a good look for the government to bypass the select committee process. It is not a good look for the government to break another election promise. I quote Key from Fran’s article below

    How long either before his face is emblazoned with pre-election quotes?

    Such as “… while we must play our part in the fight against climate change, we shouldn’t be the world leader, because that will come at the expense of our economy” or “I see no sense in New Zealand exporting emissions – and jobs – to another part of the world”.

    The rationale Key gave for the ETS has gone particularly since Rudd has postponed the scheme till 2013 at the earliest.

    It is very hard to tell where this money will go as not other country has signed up. It will likely end up in the consolidated fund. It would be better to delay the tax cuts if we cannot afford them at the moment. That would be a lot easier that trying to dismantle an ETS scam if in the end no one else signs up.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. Whoops (139 comments) says:

    Pita; glad to hear you’re aware of whats going on in Europe. Surprised to hear that you haven’t worked out what it means to your business.

    Best of luck with that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. lastmanstanding (1,204 comments) says:

    And the winner of the Economic Act of Treason Award for 2010 is………………………………………..drum roll…………….

    John Key and the National lead Government

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. Pita (367 comments) says:

    Whoops: business is fine…better than redherrings.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. john.bt (170 comments) says:

    Emmissions Trading Scheme. So, who exactly are we going to be trading with? And, where does the money go?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. wreck1080 (3,730 comments) says:

    How about nick smith:

    “The EU is expanding its emissions reduction net”

    What a clown this muppet is.

    Didn’t he hear, one of the EU’s largest economies (France) just shelved ETS. THis is likely to derail EU plans.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  59. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    wreck1080 – France binned it a while back. Germany and Australia in the last few days. US Senators are quietly backing away. The ones with slimmer majorities are seeing this scam impact their re-election prospects.

    But not Key & Co. We’re left with a high-in-the-polls government which steadfastly refuses to budge… because, I suspect, it can see windfall profits for its state-owned electricity business and additional tax grab. Start with a tax, launder it though the public conscience as it’s hits their energy and living costs, and have it pop up on the crown accounts as dividends (not as tax), plus enjoy increased GST take driven by higher ETS-driven product and service prices.

    And watch Key have the audacity to crow about tax reductions over the next few months.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  60. kowtow (7,629 comments) says:

    Good excuse for the Nats to scrap the dam thing now before it’s too late.

    They”ll lose lots of voters when GST,power and petrol goes up.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  61. kaya (1,360 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird – “It is very hard to tell where this money will go as not other country has signed up. It will likely end up in the consolidated fund.”

    As I said earlier, when it doesn’t make sense follow the money. Is National doing this simply as a method of scalping even more money off Kiwis because they are in the financial shitpile?

    KrazyKiwi – thanks for the link to “Climate Money”. So this is yet another non existent “product” for the financial markets to trade, along with the other mickey mouse shit they sell between each other, derivatives et al. When is the world going to wake up to this Ponzi scheme?
    We are being rorted by the financial markets, by the people who produce nothing of any worth to anyone on the planet yet take the most. People who are still threatening to collapse our system through gross and excessive greed. Even after they got within an inch of doing it 18 months ago and managed to weasel their way out of it by conning stupid politicians into believing the world would end if they weren’t bailed out.

    Funny that, politicians being conned. Reminds me of the ETS.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  62. side show bob (3,660 comments) says:

    Yeah think you right KK. I believe the con artists in the Nats have painted themselves into a corner with some rather creative accounting. Shonkey promised all and sundry lower taxes, of course this goes against everything in a New Zealand politician’s nature. The EFS was a way to balance the decreased personal tax take and look good for the lefty tossers over the water. As many have pointed out, where does the money go and more importantly how much would it have cost the government to collect and process this tax. If other countries had signed up to this shit Shonkey would have looked like a knight in shinny armour as his tax scheme was far superior to that of the scumbag socialists. He and his minnows have been caught with their pants down, it all turned to custard when many wiser heads said no to the bullshit. Meanwhile the money shufflers in National had all ready factored in the new taxes to replaced the ones they had reduced. Unfortunately for them they have been such clever bastards they have now out smarted themselves, no wriggle room left.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  63. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    I honestly don’t think John Key has the character to say he is wrong if he thinks that.
    That this is based on fraudulent manouvering by biased political scientists and their politicians and financial mates makes Keys position and Natioanal even opwrse.

    Then he sends our minister of Maori affairs furtively to NY to sign something that means nothing.
    He has already shown that he is quite happy to ignore 80% of the voters.

    Just give John Key and National a smack next election, I intend too.
    Vote part vote ACT next election.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  64. annie (537 comments) says:

    “If a law change is needed, it couldn’t realistically be done by 1 July.”

    Why not? Other laws can be passed or repealed at very short notice indeed, complex or not.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  65. Pongo (371 comments) says:

    Its funny how my perception of the Nats changed. I thought Grosser was a brilliant appointment now I just look at him as an ageing pompous queen strutting the world stage while I fund it. Nick Smith who I thought a pretty fiery bloke who was someone you could have a beer and good chat with now looks like some derranged frothing lunatic who manages an organic fertilizer farm somewhere, loudly defying council regulations while his family plead with him to recharge the batteries in his hearing aid. As for Key well I imagine him sitting in front of a trading screen making a fortune from trading carbon credits with some dodgy Russian crook.
    The whole ETS annoys the hell out of me and is plainly lunacy but at the end of the day wont really affect me too much financially and I can afford the extra costs. Its just the stupidity for NZ inc. and I voted for Key because I thought he would do for NZ what he has achieved personally.
    If he backed down NZ would have a huge sigh of relief, Goffs vein would pop and the Nats would rise in the polls and Nick Smith could take some stress leave.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  66. GJ (329 comments) says:

    I along with many other NZ’s simply cannot understand National on this one. Having read Nick Smiths speeches whilst he was in opposition all I can say is he is an absolute hypocrite .
    Just wait until the price increases start to kick in and then watch their support start to tumble and I thought I was a supporter of National!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  67. Jack Schytt (8 comments) says:

    DPF, I think you are a soft disgrace to even suggest that it might be “difficult” or “inconvenient” to defer or cancel the ETS. As John Boscawen says quite rightly it must be done and there is no doubt we cannot afford it in any way shape or form, off with its head I say.

    We can all be very confident now that we have another nanny state gummint, National was in voted to deliver change as was Obama and what we are seeing is almost the same marxist policy platform from National.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  68. Viking2 (11,130 comments) says:

    # annie (117) Says:
    April 28th, 2010 at 5:26 pm

    “If a law change is needed, it couldn’t realistically be done by 1 July.”

    Why not? Other laws can be passed or repealed at very short notice indeed, complex or not.

    Just look at tonights effort. wow, I’m oldish but I can’t remember this sort of behavoir since Nordmeyer’s days. Although that woser also hit the grog at the same time.
    And look how short term that Govt. was.

    And lets face it this is the Maori’s pulling the string Isn’t it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  69. reid (15,947 comments) says:

    To sum up:

    Very few National supporters seem to want it, none on this blog at all.

    No-one understands why they’re doing it because they see no benefit and no-one, not politicians nor journalists, have explained what it is, if any. Munting about trade and market image doesn’t cut it.

    There is absolutely no impediment to delay because the Nats have the votes via ACT, despite DPF’s protestations that it would be “difficult”

    The highly suspicious might imagine there are some big boys with money tied up in proceeding.

    The rest of us are bewildered.

    Dear John, between the big boys and the rest of us, guess which group counts more on election day? How would you like to see a huge ACT swing? Would that be a good thing?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  70. reid (15,947 comments) says:

    Meanwhile the TV “in-depth” news programs: Campbell Live and Close Up, have stories on someone who fell for a Nigerian Scam and Pauline Hanson’s comment re: not selling her home to a foreigner.

    This on a day when the govt’s position on legislation that will impose more pointless and needless costs on the average Kiwi than anything else in history, was being discussed in the MSM.

    Given that TV is where most people get their “news” from: WTF.

    FFS you [said program news editors] fuckity fuck moron fuckhead fucks.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  71. southtop (262 comments) says:

    what reid said

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  72. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    Reviving the spirit of Rio
    Following the near collapse of the UN climate negotiations in December and the seeming paralysis of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) in March, the whole idea of solving the world’s environmental problems through multilateral negotiations seems to be in crisis. But, argue Maurice Strong and Felix Dodds, another recent development holds out the promise of reversing the trend.

    Setting aside the BBC’s continued worship at the altar of Climate Change, it’s fascinating to see Maurice Strong pop his head up again, this time yearning for the Earth Summit Rio 2010. Strong is mentor to none other than Al Gore, and he is a current board member of the Chicago Climate Exchange.

    Some quotes from Maurice Strong:-

    “Isn’t the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse?
    Isn’t it our responsibility to bring that about?

    .. and ..

    “The Earth Summit will play an important role in reforming and strengthening the United Nations as the centerpiece of the emerging system of democratic global governance

    .. and ..

    “The concept of national sovereignty has been an immutable, indeed sacred, principle of international relations. [Sovereignty] is a principle which will yield only slowly and reluctantly to the new imperatives of global environmental cooperation. It is simply not feasible for sovereignty to be exercised unilaterally by individual nation states, however powerful.”

    Maurice Strong is the founding father of the United Nations Development Program and the IPCC.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  73. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    Given Smith’s now zealot-like, driven intent to see the ETS become active, it’s only right that he’s been held to account over a couple of very anti-ETS type comments while in opposition.

    But spare a thought for poor old Rudd whose distribe of MSM-carried alarmism is systematically disassembled here. He’s flayed alive, one small chunk of rhetoric at a time.

    It’s a universal truth that modern-day politicians (and many of their predecessors) are only interested in things that improve their personal power and/or wealth.

    Faux worshiping at the altar of Climate Change must really be seen as a ticket to the big time. Key and Smith might be pretending to pray at the altar now, but there they’re probably chancing some nervous glances over their shoulders at the number of fellow worshipers who are walking out.. and taking their vote with them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  74. krazykiwi (9,189 comments) says:

    Smith says Delaying ETS would cause instability, while the Reserve Bank says implementing the ETS will cause inflation.

    Gosh… who to believe?

    Smith is pathetic. His dishonest pig-headedness will cost Kiwi families $1000′s every year by pushing up the price of all fuel, foods and interest rates.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  75. albatross (4 comments) says:

    I wonder whether there has ever been an issue in which politicians of all persuasions – John Boscawen excepted – have been so stupid and out of touch with public opinion?

    The ETS is an absurd, theoretical, expensive, ineffective, substantial burden on the cost of living for every New Zealander. It won’t make one jot of difference to the planet. All will do is provide a feel-good factor for green extremists with little ability to think through the issues for themselves.

    I hope an otherwise capable government doesn’t fall over this issue. But I see a real possibility that it will. And if it continues pursuing an ineffective scheme that is going to put a huge and pointless surge into living costs at the same time as increased GST and pent up inflatiition, then it deserves to! Have the politicians lost their minds?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  76. jackp (668 comments) says:

    Kaya is right. When things don’t make sense, always follow the money and inevitably you will find the culprit. . Unfortunately, like Krazykiwi’s link states, carbon tax will bring a whole NEW PARASITE to the banks. John Key has had extensive trading experience in Great Britian and with Ireland specifically which means he has friends in the world banks. This looks like the reason why he isn’t giving an answer why he isn’t shelving the ETS. It would be worth looking into, don’t you think Ian Wishart?
    ONe thing for certain, John Key is not living up to his campaign promises about lowering taxes. Prior to his win in 2008 he was always promising that tax cuts would be the best solution to this recession (productivity). Now he has abandoned this. I really don’t like this guy.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote

Leave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.