Multiculturalism

October 26th, 2010 at 7:26 am by David Farrar

writes in the Herald:

So has “failed, absolutely failed”, according to German Chancellor Angela Merkel. It is dead, declared another German politician. Did I hear “I told you so” from the xenophobes who claimed all along that was doomed to failure?

The crowing may be a little premature. The trouble with multiculturalism is that it seems to mean different things to different people.

In many parts of Europe, it has failed. In some countries it has been a disaster. Yet in other countries it has worked well – the US is an excellent example of that. As is NZ.

For Merkel, “multikulti” is the idea that “we are living side by side, and are happy about it”. (Which implies, I think, that multicultural nirvana was meant to happen naturally.)

For others, multiculturalism is that ill-defined policy which holds that a single country can accommodate new and disparate cultures peacefully and equitably, even when certain aspects of those cultures clash fundamentally with its own cherished traditions and values.

The former seems an increasingly distant liberal fantasy, and the latter a recipe for resentment and discord.

I agree with Tapu Misa. I think a blending or integration of cultures is a good thing, but if the cultures fundamentally clash on core values, then you get the problem – resentment and discord.

Disenchantment with multiculturalism isn’t new. In 2006, the then British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, told immigrants they should “conform … or don’t come here”.

Conform isn’t the word I would use. But there does have to be a general acceptance of the way of life of the country you move to. For example, if the sight of females in bikinis terribly upsets you, then don’t move to Bondi Beach – or Australia generally.

There is a key difference between integration and assimilation. The former is about adopting or not resisting the core values of a country. The latter implies to me abandoning your previous culture entirely.

Blair said that the July 2005 suicide bombings in London, carried out by British Muslims, had thrown the concept of a multicultural Britain into “sharp relief”. While multiculturalism should be celebrated, it had to be accompanied by a duty to share “essential values – belief in democracy, the rule of law, tolerance, equal treatment for all, respect for this country and its shared heritage”. “Our tolerance is part of what makes Britain Britain,” Blair said.

“So conform to it, or don’t come here. We don’t want the hate-mongers, whatever their race, religion or creed. The right to be different. The duty to integrate. That is what being British means.”

Tolerance is almost the most important aspect. And that includes tolerance of those who do not share your religious beliefs – and in fact even criticise them.

I was chatting at the rally yesterday to a Jewish friend (who gently scolded me for the joke I blogged a couple of days ago, before admitting it was very funny) and talked about Sarah Silverman. Silverman is a Jewish comedian, probably best known for her hilarious “I f**ked Matt Damon” video to her boyfriend. In her TV series she has offended almost all religions by not just having sex with God, but dumping him afterwards. A reporter asked her if she would ever play a part where she had sex with Mohammed. Her reply was no she would not, as she did not wish to be killed. A very sad reflection on the world we live in.

Anyone who wants to kill someone because they are disrespectful to your religion fails my tolerance test. In fact even wanting to change the law, so it is illegal to disrespect your religion, fails my tolerance test.

Where does that leave us? I’d like to think our version of the multicultural society is just as respectful of difference, and inclusive, without being overweeningly deferential.

What does being a New Zealander mean? We’re still working it out. But if a shared sense of identity and citizenship is a sign of multicultural health, then we can take heart.

NZ I think has managed the challenge pretty damn well. But this may have been by as much good luck as good management. I do think our system needs a “tolerance” test and also we need to make sure prospective immigrants are well informed on what are the “essential values” of New Zealanders, and that as aspiring NZers, they share them.

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81 Responses to “Multiculturalism”

  1. Grant Michael McKenna (1,152 comments) says:

    This post counts as trolling for trolls.

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  2. Guy Fawkes (702 comments) says:

    Troll alert. Incoming. Luc Hansen!!

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  3. Simon (613 comments) says:

    Multiculturalism in NZ: Asset stripping the third world to pay for the otherwise unsustainable welfare state.

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  4. ephemera (563 comments) says:

    Sarah Silverman makes blindingly fantastic jewish jokes which work, for the most part, because she embodies a ‘jewish princess’ persona.

    This is why her making jokes about Mohammad would really suck, in addition to getting her killed. I couldn’t make a joke about jews myself, and really be as funny as a jewish person doing so.

    Its hardly a sad indictment of the world we live in when you embody aspects of a certain religion and make jokes about fucking someone elses prophet.

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  5. ephemera (563 comments) says:

    ^^ and *can’t* make jokes about other prophets, rather

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  6. Grant Michael McKenna (1,152 comments) says:

    الكعكة هو كذب

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  7. Banana Llama (1,105 comments) says:

    سمعت كان هناك كعكة

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  8. annie (533 comments) says:

    Our laws also need to allow for revocation of acquired citizenship. Other countries do it, no reason why not.

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  9. James Stephenson (1,885 comments) says:

    Silverman’s 40 years old…far far to old for him.

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  10. Captain Neurotic (206 comments) says:

    GMM & BL – Hilarious.

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  11. Mr Nobody NZ (396 comments) says:

    If the government was serious about this then they would by requiring “New Zealander” as an ethnic group on all government and local government forms.

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  12. Gwilly (154 comments) says:

    NZ is already on the slippery slope, and we need to rethink our immigration policy quickly.

    Suggestions:

    1. One rule for all immigrants. Why should certain countries (e.g. Samoa) receive preferential treatment?
    2. No paid employment means you can’t stay – same policy as for most overseas countries;
    3. No entitlement to welfare for 5 years – this will stop the bluggers and those who bring hoards of family with them;
    4. No Muslims – this religion is based on sharia law which is not compatible with western culture or values.

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  13. Scumsucker (59 comments) says:

    Feminism is the cause of all these problems. To what extent do the rights of women have precedence over the survival of our white race? My local supermarket this morning was full of wogs, dagos and assorted coons. Each one represents a white baby aborted or a contraceptive pill taken.

    Europeans 100 years ago represented 40% of the worlds population. We are now less than 20%.

    The ‘West’ has had it. It’s just a matter of time.

    And don’t get me on the Islamisization of Britain and Europe.

    [DPF: 30 demerits for various racial terms - you can call people coons on your own blog]

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  14. Fletch (5,726 comments) says:

    More clashes like this happening in France –

    PARIS (Reuters) – Muslim pupils and parents in France are increasingly making religious demands on the state school system that teachers should rebuff by explaining the country’s secular principles, according to an official report.

    The High Council for Integration (HCI) reported growing problems with pupils of immigrant backgrounds who object to courses about the Holocaust, the Crusades or evolution, demand halal meals and “reject French culture and its values.”

    “It is becoming difficult for teachers to resist religious pressures,” said the report, published in draft form by the newspaper Journal du Dimanche over the weekend. The final report will be presented to the government next month.

    “We should now reaffirm secularism and train teachers how to deal with specific problems linked to the respect for this principle,” it said.

    France’s strict separation of church and state relegates religion to the private sphere, an approach challenged by a growing Islamic identity among some of the five million Muslims in the country’s 65 million population.

    HCI President Patrick Gaubert told the newspaper his agency decided to study how pupils from immigrant backgrounds adapted to the state school system because “this is at the heart of the challenges that French society must face.”

    The report, which studied a wide range of issues faced by pupils of immigrant backgrounds, gave no figures for the extent of problems linked to religion but said they came up so often in the hearings the HCI conducted that they merited attention.

    REFUSING CLASSES, DEMANDING HALAL

    Teachers often faced objections when they taught courses about world religions, the Holocaust or France’s war in Algeria, or discussed events related to Israel and the Palestinians or American military actions in Muslim countries, the study said.

    “Teachers regularly find that Muslim parents refuse to have their children learn about Christianity,” it said. “Some think it amounts to evangelisation.”

    “Anti-Semitism … surfaces during courses about the Holocaust, such as inappropriate jokes and refusals to watch films” about Nazi concentration camps, it said. “Tensions often come from pupils who identify themselves as Muslims.”

    Teachers found they could discuss the trans-atlantic slave trade but met criticism from pupils when they brought up the history of slavery within Africa or in the Middle East.

    Reflecting the promotion of anti-Darwinist thinking in Muslim countries, “evolution is challenged by pupils who posit divine or creationist action without any argument for it.”

    In some areas with large immigrant populations, many pupils shun school cafeterias for religious reasons, even though most offer alternative dishes when pork is on the menu.

    “Demand for halal menus is strong, even for the very young in public crèches,” it said. “In some cities, there are petitions for halal — and sometimes kosher — meals.”

    The report stressed the state could allow alternatives to pork but could not allow halal or kosher meals because the price for ritually slaughtered meat included a tax paid to religious organisations that certify the food was properly prepared.

    “The school cannot, in this sense, participate in the religious education of its pupils or conform to principles that it does not recognise,” the report said.

    France allows private religious schools and the number of Jewish schools has risen in recent years. There are few Muslim schools and most parents would have difficulty paying tuition.

    PHILOSOPHICAL UPHEAVAL

    During Ramadan, some Muslim pupils harass others who don’t observe the annual daytime fast, it said. Boys who identify themselves as Muslims and reject French values harass girls who do well in class as “collaborators” with the “dirty French.”

    Some girls ask to be excused from gymnasium or pool sessions because they are not supposed to mix with boys, it added.

    The report said French schools must insist on co-education, equal rights and mutual respect. “Being a French citizen means accepting challenges to one’s opinions … this is the price to pay for the freedom of opinion and expression.

    “Must we recall that the crime of blasphemy has not existed in France since the French Revolution?” it asked.

    “The principle of secularism leads to a profound relativisation of religion. This is a philosophical upheaval that religions only consent to with difficulty,” it said.

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  15. Offshore_Kiwi (557 comments) says:

    I don’t think multiculturalism has failed totally the way Merkel does, but then again I don’t live in a country (or collection of countries) that have imported hate on a wholesale basis from North Africa. I think there needs to be a general understanding that there are some cultures which are not suited to life in the west. Their goal is to bomb the civilisation out of the civilised world and force their distorted, primitive ideology and culture on the globe. They should not be welcomed with open arms, but turned around and sent back to wherever it is they arrived from.

    On the other hand, I don’t necessarilly think New Zealand is the harmonious family a lot of people pretend either. The two primary cultures (*brown* NZ and *white* NZ) are about to be set on an interesting course, if John Key’s foreshore & seabed legislation is passed. The handing over of one well-known beach in a back-room deal will expose the cultural illness and racism that (almost) hides under the surface.

    And GMM/BL … hmmmm, cake!

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  16. JC (840 comments) says:

    As soon as you say “celebrating our differences”, you have lost the multikulti argument. Bringing in migrants means we are committing to them, as they must to us.

    Thats the difference to Europe.. they wanted to bring in migrants to work, and then fuck off and leave them to their racial purity. Not surprisingly their migrants have been marginalised and, at best, get treated as if they are foreign visitors who don’t need to conform to the whole of society. Idiots.

    JC

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  17. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,681 comments) says:

    John Howard had it about right when he conceded that multiculturalism is an impissibolity but a multiracial society is much to be desired – or words to that effect.

    In other words, if you don’t want to adopt the ‘culture’ of the land to which you have come, don’t come.

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  18. MT_Tinman (2,793 comments) says:

    “My local supermarket this morning was full of wogs, dagos and assorted coons.”

    Please share with us your description of just who these groups of people are.

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  19. tom hunter (4,010 comments) says:

    My local supermarket….

    Troll alert

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  20. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/

    They call it the offense test.

    If Muslims cannot see a woman in a short skirt without trying to rape her, then they are unfit to be members of society in which women have the right to dress as they please. If Muslims cannot see a cartoon of their prophet, without trying to murder the artist who drew it, then they cannot be members of any society with free speech. And if Muslims cannot give their loyalty to the country that they live in, rather than to the angry clerics of Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, than they had best move back to where their hearts truly lie. Otherwise their new country will be forced to judge every foreign policy decision not based on its own interests, but on whether its citizens will be subject to terrorist attacks from its domestic Muslims.

    For Muslims, the Offense Test will serve to determine, whether they can live outside the Muslim world. For now, they are failing the test, and failing it badly. Muslim immigration has not spread tolerance, but intolerance, not love but fear, and not knowledge, but ignorance. It is up to Muslims themselves to reverse that trend, by either passing the Offense Test and proving that they can tolerate being offended by the variety of views and images in a multicultural society, or disengaging from a non-Muslim world whose freedoms and perspectives they cannot learn to tolerate. The choice is simple enough, and the choice is theirs

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  21. OTGO (457 comments) says:

    It’s about the gene pool. Don’t import people into NZ who subtract from the gene pool. We all know who the quality races are so they should be the favourites when it comes to immigrating here so that they add to the gene pool.

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  22. All_on_Red (950 comments) says:

    Adolf is onto it.
    Multi racialism is fine but multi culturism is a failure. You end up with disparite groups within our society who dont merge with the rest.
    A recipe for divisiveness and failure.

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  23. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    If you break the law and are convicted you get deported, no appeal, tough luck if you have married a citizen and and a family.

    It you are a refugee and been granted citizenship and break the law and are convicted, citizenship revoked and you are deported back from whense you came , tough luck if a firing squad awaits, you should not have broken the law here.

    What I don’t understand is if I was a muslim refugee from Somalia why would I want to come to a secular country like NZ rather than go to another muslim dominant country? Strange that one…………………thye all want to go to nice western countries instead!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  24. tom hunter (4,010 comments) says:

    One of the two main reasons that multiculturalism has failed because it turned into a hatefest for one culture in particular – Western culture.

    The USA was the classic target for this, with leftists endlessly droning on about how awful it was that all the immigrants found themselves having to conform to WASP culture: boring, deadening – and racist of course. In the case of NZ these arguments could cuddle up beside the ignorant prejudices of the locals in “knowing” what the US was like.

    For me it turned out that the USA was the most multicultural society I ever lived in, far more so than self-congratulatory little NZ. One girl I dated was of Polish descent and when we went to the restaurant of one of her friends I found myself surrounded by a cacophony of Polish language, as was the case in the bank down the street where she worked and for a half-a-mile either side, with all the street signs in Polish. Similarly with the next block (Mexican), and the next (Puerto Rican) and so forth.

    The thought that continually came to me was: is this America? Well of course it was, and is and always had been. All these cultures held various nasty opinions about one another, argued, and occasionally fought with eachother. But that too was America.

    But what they also did was acknowledge and understand why they were there, most of all because they had wanted or needed to escape from the old countries. They might have celebrated many aspects of their culture but they left behind those things which had hurt them, especially the lack of freedom of speech, the lack of democracy and a stunted economic world where business, landowners and government (including the “justice” system of course) fed off eachother in a corrupting embrace. They found that all those things were far better in America, not perfect, but far better.

    And that’s the key. It’s more than multi-racialism, it’s about making a choice, a judgement, about what parts of other cultures are going to be selected and which will be ignored or actively rejected, and the parts about non Western European cultures that should be rejected are the parts that produce and maintain civil institutions – government, police, courts, judges, law – that are hopelessly corrupted and corrupted communities; women as serfs, men as idle masters, the celebration of blood and soil above ideas.

    That’s the other reason multiculturalism has failed – because it refused to make such judgements about those other cultures and actively attacked those who did, even insiders. Combine that with the constant denigration of Western culture and you get a void, which is bound to be filled by people who do have cultural self-confidence.

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  25. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    If Muslims cannot see a woman in a short skirt without trying to rape her, then they are unfit to be members of society in which women have the right to dress as they please. If Muslims cannot see a cartoon of their prophet, without trying to murder the artist who drew it, then they cannot be members of any society with free speech.

    If someone rapes or murders, they cannot be members of any society where rape and murder are illegal. No need to make it an explicit test for just one group of people.

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  26. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    Very nicely put, tom hunter.

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  27. TCrwdb (246 comments) says:

    To compare the likes of USA, NZ, Australia with Old World countries in Europe is not a valid comparison. USA, NZ, Australia are countries that have relatively ‘new’ cultures and comprise of mostly immigrants or descendents there-of. Old World Europe countries have been mono-cultural for hundreds even thousands of years. So to expect them to be able to move quickly to a more multi-cultural society is unreasonable.

    Also, why is it that Western liberal democracies are expected to accept ‘multiculturalism’ whilst the same demands are not placed on the countries from which the immigrants originate? I would like to hear Tapu Misa’s view on multiculturalism in Samoa.

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  28. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Good point Ryan
    but as you are well aware other groups aren’t causing as much grief in Freedom loving Western Cultures as Muslims are are they?
    I also wasn’t aware of any other group that required their womenfolk to wear a tent so the menfolk didn’t get aroused.
    Now of other groups who then go on and want all other women not just their own to dress as they want according to their societies rules not the host culture.

    Ultimately I the host women may suffer the Muslim male lack of control or denigration of the rights depending on your point of view.
    I would point out that in that harbinger of Global peace and tolerance Sweden, the Police have even stopped publishing the figures for rape of non-Muslim women by Muslim males, it has got so bad.

    It’s a pity you didn’t highlight the next sentence isn’t it in your blockquote?

    More headlines around the freedom and liberty countries Muslims seem to want to immigrate to or refugee to?
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/10/norway_and_the_jews.html
    Self censure in Norway another Global bastion of peace and Tolerance.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/10/no_freedom_of_speech_for_thee.html
    Mark Steyn being banned because of Muslim sensibilities from a public owned space where the Muslims weren’t bothered by a sex show previously.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/6409749/the-capture-of-tower-hamlets.thtml
    I remember Tower Hamlets as a lad, now it is the poster place for the next step of the Muslim Brotherhood and their ilk’s strategy in a Western culture like ours.

    Thank God we are years away from that, But only if we make sure that ideology’s that are inimical to our freedom and liberty aren’t welcome here and definitely not encouraged in the name of Multiculturalism by useful idiots.

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  29. TCrwdb (246 comments) says:

    In answer to my own question, we all know that ‘multiculturalism’ is simply a feel-good word that is in fact one of the means to destroy civil society (the predominant culture) so that it can be replaced with a ‘socialist utopia’ thus handing power to the marxist apparatchiks.

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  30. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    It’s sometimes hard not to despair at the future of human society. I used to have a strong belief in multiculturalism but it seems that beyond the goodwill of individuals, the weight of history suggests that the future will be a continuance of the rise and fall of different cultural hegemonies, always with other groups in the margins. And with advanced technologies, we have the prospect of atrocities carried out with greater efficiency.

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  31. tom hunter (4,010 comments) says:

    An interesting discussion (12 minutes) that hits many of these themes: Cultural Suicide by media

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  32. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Mike,

    Muslim Kiwis see women in short skirts all the time without raping them.

    As for “wearing a tent so the menfolk don’t get aroused”, the difference seems to be one of degree rather than type. In New Zealand, women are not allowed to bare their chests in public, while men are allowed to, with similar justifications. And there are Christian groups in New Zealand that require women to dress plainly, without revealing clothing, and with a headscarf in public.

    Regarding your violent-crime statistics, I would be interested to learn what kind of socio-economic conditions the criminals are coming from. Poverty tends to breed violent behaviour, and refugees and immigrants can often be impoverished. The correlation of race or religion with crime does not necessarily mean causation by race or religion.

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  33. wreck1080 (3,527 comments) says:

    THis is because NZ doesn’t have too many muslims.

    It seems to be the muslims who most enjoy blowing shit up.

    Although, white european NZ’ers still seem ashamed of their culture from what I can see. My boys primary school has just banned xmas for example.

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  34. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Yeah yeah Ryan, you are so right, how can I not see that?
    Silly me.
    Some wicked people suggest that is because there are so few Muslims in NZ.
    They might even postulate that if that is the case isn’t that a case for stopping ALL Muslim immigration of refugees :-).

    More on Multiculturalism.
    http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/breaking-judges-in-geert-wilders-free-speech-case-removed-from-trial/?singlepage=true
    Bloody frightening that the progressive left activist judges have dinner parties and talk to witnesses in trials.
    Didn’t they know the rules about tampering with the legal process?
    Thank God it couldn’t happen here.

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  35. dime (8,778 comments) says:

    Thanks for your input scumsucker… you weird bastard

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  36. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    wreck
    Yep that’s progressivism 101, mustn’t offend other cultures, oh no just the non liberal Joos and christians.

    Who’s on the School Board?
    Make sure they all get their names in the local news papers preferably with photos.
    How about you all organise a picket and photo op at the school gates wearing fancy dress as Kings, Shepherds and Angels with a few Father Christmases thrown in.
    Shit you can deck out some big dogs with antlers even!

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  37. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Yeah yeah Ryan, you are so right, how can I not see that?
    Silly me.
    Some wicked people suggest that is because there are so few Muslims in NZ.
    They might even postulate that if that is the case isn’t that a case for stopping ALL Muslim immigration of refugees :-)

    Sure. But can you provide any support at all for the claim? Would having twice as many Muslims in New Zealand cause previously law-abiding Muslim Kiwis to go on mad serial-rape rampages?

    Refugees in general are impoverished, and we do know that people growing up in impoverished circumstances are more likely to commit violent crimes than those growing up in well-off circumstances. That is a reason for being careful how refugees in general are brought to New Zealand, rather than one particular flavour of refugee.

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  38. adc (520 comments) says:

    Did Angela Merkel actually say that multiculturalism had failed?

    I don’t think so – I think this is how it was mis-reported by some moronic media, and regurgitated by the NZ Herald.

    If you look closer at what she said (and it was in German) I thought she was indicating that the policies relating to multiculturalism had failed. That’s a far cry from saying the goal was wrong, just the implementation.

    She went on to then try to encourage immigrants to try harder to fit in.

    But that’s not so interesting or likely to sell papers as saying the Germans think that multiculturalism is a lost cause.

    sigh.

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  39. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    An important difference adc, but how successful do you think telling immigrants that they need to “try harder to fit in” will be? She might as well say multiculturalism has failed unless they can come up with a more promising strategy than that.

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  40. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    ADC is right. Tapu Misa has done it again, she has mis-stated a head of state’s remarks simply to stir up racial tension and give her another opportunity to use her “white people are racist” article template.

    Its a living.

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  41. tom hunter (4,010 comments) says:

    I thought she was indicating that the policies relating to multiculturalism had failed. That’s a far cry from saying the goal was wrong, just the implementation.

    I listened to a translation as she spoke and that seemed fairly clear that she was saying that multiculturalism had failed. Whether she actually preceded that statement (or followed it) by defining what multiculturalism actually was I don’t know, but unless she did it would be hard to say what failed.

    It’s rather irrelevant though. First because multiculturalism is such a vague, tenuous apparition that it defies definition, being dependent on the context of each society and being a nullity in the sense that it promotes no particular aspect of any culture. One might as well just go back to our grandparent’s idea of intermarriage as the basic way of moving forward, or Rodney King’s plea: can’t we all just get along?.

    The second reason it’s irrelevant, is that in this case Germany has not actually been noted for welcoming immigrants as citizens. I recall debates twenty years ago about 2nd and 3rd generation Turkish immigrants who still could not become German citizens. But that sort of nonsense is rooted in the fact that places like Germany are still more about blood and soil than about the idea of what it is to be German. If anybody were to ask that question, what would the answer be?

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  42. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    Multi-culturalism has failed as an ideal. The idea in Europe was that adding other cultures to live along-side the established culture would enhance the lives of all. That ideal is that multiple cultures can live together in harmony, respecting each others differences. We know that doesnt happen as easily as the idealist think, and we can see how badly it has worked in Europe.

    Multi-culturalism is what is destroying Europes successful social deomocracies. Those social democratic policies might have “worked” for decades, but mainly because people of that country were of a single (read: shared) culture and so were more bonded to each other. People were willing to have a large social welfare program because the people it would help were people like themselves. It is not hard to imagine what impact segregation would have in those countries.

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  43. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Multiculturalism is just a euphemistic term for ethnic cleansing. Aussies warn other Aussies about going to Auckland..They say it has been ”ethnically cleansed ” and that it is very difficult to find a real NZer there. Their other worry of course is that all the Indians and Chinese in AK are just waiting there long enough to be able to move on to Australia.
    If anyone wants to see the real madness of multiculturalism , just go to Britain.. Another point which seldom gets mentioned is that it is only western countries which are adopting multiculturalism..Just try getting citizenship or even PR in some of these countries..no way hose..
    I would have to live continuously for at least 25 years in my husbands country of origin before I could even be considered for PR..I would have to have references from top people in society and a completely blemish free record and even then PR would not be guaranteed. Not too long ago a lot of women from his country were coming here deliberately to have babies here to get NZ citizenship..I am sure others are here on the strength of false qualifications…etc…
    NZ citizenship and PR is GIVEN away far too lightly.

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  44. tom hunter (4,010 comments) says:

    Refugees in general are impoverished, and we do know that people growing up in impoverished circumstances are more likely to commit violent crimes than those growing up in well-off circumstances.

    It’s too beautiful a day to stay inside arguing this – again – but really Ryall (and welcome back by the way), are you once more going to push the line about poverty and all that? In the face of so many Islamist killers in the West being middle-class men who were or had lived, worked and been educated in the West ( I might as well say all because I’m not aware of any in the West that fit the description of being illiterate, poor and so forth.)? Not to mention the idea men behind them, the Immans and others who never get their hands dirty but who exhort, inspire and justify the actions.

    Moreover, focusing on that (which of course fits perfectly with traditional leftist memes) means that Islamists who are educated and reasonably well-off (working class or middle-class) and who decide to either embark on terrorist actions or try to enforce Sharia law within a Western muslim community, get ignored or treated as statistical outliers. The leftist approach to such people seems to be to shrug the shoulders, dismiss them as religious nutters and supposedly let the police and the courts handle it once the crime is committed.

    That won’t work. This is a battle of ideas about how a society should be run and Islamists need to be confronted every day over their bullshit, especially over their threats (implied or otherwise) that bad things may happen if Muhammed is shown in a cartoon or if a woman chooses to step down some street in a miniskirt, rather than just the aftermath.

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  45. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Cheers, Tom. Sorry, what do you mean by “Ryall”?

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  46. Jack5 (4,224 comments) says:

    DPF is dead right that tolerance is the core value societies need. But IMHO he is mistaken when he says multiculturalism has worked well in the United States. America shines at assimilation, which is definitely not multiculturalism. In many ways it is the opposite. Canada is the stronghold of multiculturalism, and NZ and Australia have followed it.

    Wikipedia has a simple explanation of multiculturalism:

    …multiculturalists advocate extending equitable status to distinct ethnic and religious groups without promoting any specific ethnic, religious, and/or cultural community values as central.

    It contrasts this with America’s “melting pot” tradition:

    …the Melting Pot implied that each individual immigrant, and each group of immigrants, assimilated into American society at their own pace which, as defined above, is not multiculturalism as this is opposed to assimilation and integration. An Americanized (and often stereotypical) version of the original nation’s cuisine, and its holidays, survived. The Melting Pot tradition co-exists with a belief in national unity, dating from the American founding fathers…

    A brief, authoritative touching on the background of multiculturalism as an ideology is provided by NZ philosophy professor Denis Dutton, the man behind the superb Arts and Letters web site (aldaily.com). Dutton discusses multiculturalism as an ideology in a review of Alain Finkielkraut’s Defeat of the Mind at http://www.denisdutton.com/finkielkraut_review.htm

    It would be helpful to keep accusations of “racism” out of the debate on whether assimilation or multiculturalism is better. There are non-white monocultural countries (Japan and Korea for example) as well as white ones. Some countries that profess multiculturalism seem to be strongly assimilationist. China is one. In Europe, Britain is sometimes described as multicultural and contrasted with Frances which is seen to aspire to be assimilationist. When the criticism is doled around, some countries seem exempt. For example, Turkey, where there is strong assimilation not only towards religions such as Christianity (until recently, and perhaps now, Christians could be NCOs in the Army, but not officers), but towards race/language/ethnic groups such as Kurds.

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  47. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    NZ citizenship and PR is GIVEN away far too lightly..

    Couldn’t agree more Joana, let anyone come here, no worries but behave. Its basic, you drum that into your kids when they visit a friends place

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  48. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    multiculturalists advocate extending equitable status to distinct ethnic and religious groups without promoting any specific ethnic, religious, and/or cultural community values as central.

    Except, presumably, promoting multiculturalism as central, which can probably be considered a cultural community value.

    Surely any country with laws is promoting some kind of values as central.

    By this definition, it sounds to me that multiculturalism is doomed to failure, almost by logical necessity.

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  49. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    Awesome article, Jack5. I’d quote a section out of it if it weren’t copyright.

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  50. Treetop (24 comments) says:

    The German Chancellor Angela Merkel was reported as saying on BBC Radio at the weekend, that due to immigrants not financially contributing enough, that this is the cause of immigration not being a success in Germany.

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  51. tom hunter (4,010 comments) says:

    Sorry, what do you mean by “Ryall”?

    It’s been five minutes as I try to convert a mistake into an smart-ass insult and …. nuthin!
    :oops:

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  52. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    It’s been five minutes as I try to convert a mistake into an smart-ass insult and …. nuthin!

    I just spent a bit of time trying to help you with that and came up with nothing too.

    It’s too beautiful a day to stay inside arguing this – again – but really Ryall (and welcome back by the way), are you once more going to push the line about poverty and all that? In the face of so many Islamist killers in the West being middle-class men who were or had lived, worked and been educated in the West ( I might as well say all because I’m not aware of any in the West that fit the description of being illiterate, poor and so forth.)? Not to mention the idea men behind them, the Immans and others who never get their hands dirty but who exhort, inspire and justify the actions.

    We’re talking about refugees and immigrants in Europe committing violent crimes. Are they “middle-class men who were or had lived, worked and been educated in the West”? I doubt that they are, but I don’t have the stats, which is why I said I’d be interested in hearing what those stats were.

    Moreover, focusing on that (which of course fits perfectly with traditional leftist memes) means that Islamists who are educated and reasonably well-off (working class or middle-class) and who decide to either embark on terrorist actions or try to enforce Sharia law within a Western muslim community, get ignored or treated as statistical outliers. The leftist approach to such people seems to be to shrug the shoulders, dismiss them as religious nutters and supposedly let the police and the courts handle it once the crime is committed.

    We’re not talking about terrorism or trying to enforce Sharia law within a Western Muslim community. We’re talking about refugees and immigrants committing violent crimes (specifically rape). The implication was “because they can’t help themselves when they see a woman in a short skirt”, but I’m being fairly generous in the treatment.

    That won’t work. This is a battle of ideas about how a society should be run and Islamists need to be confronted every day over their bullshit, especially over their threats (implied or otherwise) that bad things may happen if Muhammed is shown in a cartoon or if a woman chooses to step down some street in a miniskirt, rather than just the aftermath.

    Do you know of any Kiwi Muslims who have made threats, implied or otherwise, that bad things may happen if a woman chooses to step down some street in a miniskirt? I say this because New Zealand is – as DPF pointed out – an example of a pretty successful mix of cultures.

    As for the cartoons, I don’t recall violence or threats of violence here, but I may be wrong. Separate issue from the rapes in Sweden, though, which is what I was addressing.

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  53. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Ryan
    As you well know, the Muslim community is far too small to throw their weight around in NZ accept for cultural things like, separate swimming for women, Hallal meat, dealing with territorial authorities, visits to schools, Hug a Muslim open days at the Mosques.
    Look at the numbers (ghettoing) and the % of pop for the harder activities.
    But you are familiar with this.

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  54. OctagonGrappler (84 comments) says:

    Auckland has changed so quick so fast. I have lived here all my life and seen change in just a few years and massive change since the mid 1990s. Its hard for other kiwis who are new to Auckland to understand as all they have seen is the Auckland of today.

    Auckland once had a unique kiwi pioneering urban culture with a hardworking grafting type and a rich maritime history. We had wonderfull movie theatres all up queen st but have replaced it with asian starmarts and english laungage schools.

    Anyone here remember catching the bus into town and going to space world then the st james for a movie and a browse around london bookshop followed by suds in the fountain in downtown.

    We have a new generation of kiwi thatb has no linear or connection to our pioneering egalatarian past of mateship and unity I likened old NZ too that of an extended family. Todays family is a migrant family who lock up there kids to become TOP LAWYER AND TOP DOCTOR.

    We give residency away like a happy meal and we are flooded by asian migrants who are here soley to get the kids educated at Uni and become top doctors and top lawyers and partake in status based activities the complete antithisis of our past. All the growth is in Auckland following the lead of sydney and melbourne creating growth by numbers and creating a ponzi scheme in the Auckland domestic housing market. As the provences cant find skilled loggers,fisherman and farming proff as well as tourist operators our rural land plumets but we still want more foreign graduates to boost service demand in Auckland.

    Our politicians did not ask us about Multicultralism, Last year we took in 87,000 migrants during a recession.

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  55. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Tapu Misa writes in the Herald:

    So multiculturalism has “failed, absolutely failed”, according to German Chancellor Angela Merkel. It is dead, declared another German politician. Did I hear “I told you so” from the xenophobes who claimed all along that multiculturalism was doomed to failure?

    You can almost see the sneer as Misa forms the word “xenophobes”. The implication being that anyone who is against “multiculturalism” must, by definition, be ‘xenophobic’. Don’t you just love the self-righteousness of the leftist/Marxist media who relegate all voice of opposition to the lunatic/racist/homophobic fringe. These media propagandist types make me want to puke.

    Lets be clear, “multiculturalism” is just Marxist code for anti-Western-white-middle-class-ism. The Marxist one worlders know that to bring in their totalitarian dictatorship they must first destroy the Judeo-Christian democratic West. Multiculturalism is but one such vehicle. And of course anyone who doesn’t go along with their plans is deemed a xenophobe/racist/Islamophobe. But we know better!

    I have no problem with diverse races within society, but when those races bring with them a culture which has global aspirations to bring all non-adherents into submission, and thereby either assimilate (convert) them or, if they refuse, murder them, then we should NOT tolerate such cultures and individuals. Of course I’m talking about Islam, and those who hold to its tenets – but this should also include other cultures who likewise refuse to fully embrace their new host country’s culture and values. If they are not prepared to do this then it is impossible for them to become fully integrated and contributing members of our society, and they should not be given approval to enter our country – whether as immigrants or as refugees.

    Angela Merkel got it right: “multiculturalism has failed, absolutely failed.”

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  56. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    OctagonGrappler 2:57 pm,

    Well said, OG.
    We’re fast becoming foreigners in our own country – especially Auckland. And many of those who come here don’t share our values or our apsirations.

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  57. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    As you well know, the Muslim community is far too small to throw their weight around in NZ accept for cultural things like, separate swimming for women, Hallal meat, dealing with territorial authorities, visits to schools, Hug a Muslim open days at the Mosques.
    Look at the numbers (ghettoing) and the % of pop for the harder activities.
    But you are familiar with this.

    Mike, I was responding to your (quoted) comments about Muslims not being able to keep themselves from committing rape when they see a woman in a short skirt. I pointed out that Kiwi Muslims do no such thing. To which you responded that there just aren’t enough of them here yet.

    You haven’t yet provided any evidence that Muslims en masse suddenly become rapacious animals where previously they were law-abiding members of the community.

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  58. Mattb (4 comments) says:

    Ryan said ‘In New Zealand, women are not allowed to bare their chests in public, while men are allowed to, with similar justifications.’

    As far as I’m aware that is incorrect. Females can bare their chests in public. Breasts aren’t genitals so the law is applied equally for both genders.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/3102582/Boobs-on-Bikes-not-indecent-exposure

    Matt

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  59. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh?

    My goodness. I didn’t know that. Cheers, Matt.

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  60. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    OG

    1.We had wonderfull movie theatres all up queen st but have replaced it with asian starmarts and english laungage schools.

    .. Which died because nobody came into town to use them, without the Asian Starmarts Queen Street would be 50% occupied

    2. Anyone here remember catching the bus into town and going to space world then the st james for a movie and a browse around london bookshop followed by suds in the fountain in downtown.

    …I remember it long before Spaceworld, which became so violent with suburban thugs that it to died.

    3 We have a new generation of kiwi thatb has no linear or connection to our pioneering egalatarian past of mateship and unity I likened old NZ too that of an extended family. Todays family is a migrant family

    ……I am presuming you are not as old as me but I do remember the Auckland City centre being a bloody violent place during the 70′s and 80′s as nobody actually lived in the city, just got drunk pissed in shop doorways and went home to suburbia.

    4. Last year we took in 87,000 migrants during a recession.

    …And the problem with migrants is ? as opposed to refugees.

    Auckland City is now vibrant at night ,its a lot safer to walk around in at night, you can buy a meal that is not prepared at a Tony’s or Uncles. There is more than the Ardmore Dairy or Caltex House open to buy a pie after 11.00pm .

    Egalitarian my arse, we have never been equal never will be and thats a good thing, the strong and clever lead our society. I do not wish to return to the 6.00 o’clock swill and having to have overseas funds to buy a new car.

    We have a great country and all should be welcome as long as they conform to our laws, I don’t care if there are hundreds of burka clad women walking up sandringham Road, as long as they don’t break our laws it all good

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  61. Fletch (5,726 comments) says:

    Did Angela Merkel actually say that multiculturalism had failed?

    I don’t think so – I think this is how it was mis-reported by some moronic media, and regurgitated by the NZ Herald.

    Yes she did, and it has, and will…

    BERLIN – Chancellor Angela Merkel’s declaration that Germany’s attempts to build a multicultural society had “utterly failed” is feeding a growing debate over how to deal with the millions of foreigners who call the country home.
    Merkel told a meeting of young members of her conservative Christian Democratic Union that while immigrants are welcome in Germany, they must learn the language and accept the country’s cultural norms — sounding a note heard increasingly across Europe as it battles an economic slump and worries about homegrown terrorism. “This multicultural approach, saying that we simply live side by side and live happily with each other has failed. Utterly failed,” Merkel said.”

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  62. transmogrifier (518 comments) says:

    Multiculturalism in the sense of many cultures living together is fine with me – as long as each and every culture follows the laws of the home country, whatever they may be. It’s when you start changing the laws to incorporate non-native cultures that it all turns to shit.

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  63. OctagonGrappler (84 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay

    Yes I concede that video killed the radio star in regards to movie houses shutting down but if you think starmarts are vibrant wow. Queen st is not vibrant it is a 3rd world ghetto full of tramps and immigrants. What shoebox apartments with washing on the windows is vibrant. Uncles did wicked burgurs you fool and remember big al’s and happy days.

    You dont care if we are full of veil clad women as long as they obey our laws. So you dont have a problem with a migrant majority from a non western background are you insane so it matters not. Ok so if that is such a winning formula why are they asian countries not allowing hordes of migrants into there nest why dont western europeans migrate on mass as I hear the BOOMING ASIAN TIGERS are the future. Well It seems we are as they all want to live downunder.

    Ps whats your thoughts on kiwi boys failing in education and do you give a shit your marxist jerk. You bag people who complain that asians are taking over our education system and dominating and your standard reply is dont be jealous, work harder. Yet if a pakeha male works his arse off in other ways and earns to much money you demand progressive taxation from that person to pay for social injustice. will you advocate for kiwi males if they are at the bottom of the tree. I think not you maoist bleeding heart liberal idiot.

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  64. kowtow (6,717 comments) says:

    Sadly many peoplle in NZ seem to think that multiculturalism means being able to get a kebab on a Friday night as opposed to fish +chips.

    Numerous politicians ,”intellectuals”and media types often extol it’s virtues w/o going into detail.

    In fact multiculturalism is an attack on western culture and values and as such should be opposed.

    In the context of this debate it is actually Islam that is being discussed but the Germans can’t actually say that. The other minority immigrants like Italians and Yugoslavs assimilated very nicely. The Muslim community generally refuses to and have produced “the Hamburg cell’ that assisted in the 9/11 atrocities. They also travel to Afghanistan to fight the “infidel” and recently a number of “Germans” have been zapped there. There is also talk of many having trained there and returned to Germany ready for that particularly European concept,jihad.
    Multiculturalism ha s also produced those disgusting protests at servicemens funerals in the UK and insults to wounded soldiers in hospitals there. Again it wasn’t Mormon missionarys doing that!

    Enjoy your kebabs and remember multiculti only applies in western countries.

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  65. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    Ryan
    You sound so like petey boy whereby you ask nice questions but just shift the conversation a little bit each time.

    I was not referring to peaceful populations suddenly becoming rabid, it is there as an undercurrant in their value system codified in their sacred writings and centuries old jurisprudence.
    but then you are aware of this aren’t you?

    I was referring to the violent undercurrent in Islamic society whereby males are supreme and Muslims are supreme all else are 2nd class to them and can be denigrated or humiliated, for the non-Muslims until they convert and the females as they aren’t worth the same as a man.

    I also referred to the issue some countries are finding in Europe (Scandanavia) though it has always been a problem for Dhimmis throughout Islamic or Sharia dominant lands. (www.gfa.org, http://www.barnabusfund.org.uk, http://www.vom.org) Go to their archives, I’ve been reading their e-letters for a decade and it’s the same old same old.

    I don’t have too.
    because you have access to all the same sources I do, just do a google “Muslim rape of non-muslim”

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  66. MikeNZ (3,234 comments) says:

    transmogrifier (370) Says:
    October 26th, 2010 at 4:47 pm

    Multiculturalism in the sense of many cultures living together is fine with me – as long as each and every culture follows the laws of the home country, whatever they may be

    That’s a wet insipid answer, just right for a dhimmi.
    Surely you jest?
    We are talking about NZ not some foggy place in your mind.

    Freedom and liberty is the core of what each person in the world deserves to live under.
    Those of us who have it, have a responsibility to keep it and to encourage even challenge those who don’t allow it in their territories.
    Similarly anyone who doesn’t accept that or even accept our bill of rights and human rights can bugger off back to a place where they came from.
    If they accept an ideology like Islam that views all other cultures as 2nd class and women as the same, it should be made very clear that their ideology isn’t wanted until it meets the requirements of our NZBORA.
    Or else they should bugger off too.

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  67. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Og

    Clean the spittle off your monitor, or blackboard as it may be ,you seem happy to live in the past.

    “Kiwi”boys – define that. Be honest, when you say this you mean white skinned.

    Politically I am very right ,but racist clowns make it very difficult when you see nonsensical diatribes written here.

    e.g Yet if a pakeha male works his arse off in other ways and earns to much money you demand progressive taxation from that person to pay for social injustice. will you advocate for kiwi males if they are at the bottom of the tree. I think not you maoist bleeding heart liberal idiot.

    Firstly ,your post script is nonsensical rubbish, secondly , I don’t know anyone that earns too much money, I know a few that earn shit loads, but it’s never too much.

    I can handle racism, but I abhor dishonesty, so if you mean , “I don’t want a whole lot of , black, yellow, burka wearers here “,have the nuts to say so.

    To pretend that you hold conservative views when you are just a shit kicking racist is also dishonest, and to wank on about the good old days is pathetic in the extreme.

    P.S : I’ll think you’ll find that there was never too many bleeding heart liberals amongst the Maoists.
    Now write on your black board 100 times , I must not confuse my political ideologies ,and then come back, but some decent punctuation at least, it makes crap alot easier to read.

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  68. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Oh no…

    There’s idiot Paul saying “how dare you say that” yet again.

    All he ever says.

    Like a fucking kindergarten teacher.

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  69. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Red – stop stalking

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  70. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    kowtow 5:02 pm,

    In the context of this debate it is actually Islam that is being discussed but the Germans can’t actually say that.

    Indeed, Kowtow.
    We all know that “Multiculturalism” translates to the West having open borders to Muslim immigration. Or, more accurately, “Multiculturalism” translates to “the Islamisation of the Judeo-Christain democratic West”. The J-C West must be made to fail – the Marxists and the Islamists DEMAND it!

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  71. OctagonGrappler (84 comments) says:

    I got called a racist wow standard reply. Paul why do most anti racists judge people by there status ie liberals. They condeme racism and bigotry yet turn there nose up at blue collar people I find it really bizzare. Do you condone classism and social snobbery yet hate racism. I am just pointing to a frustration that I suffer in society ie I basically get looked down upon by labour voting snobs for being a tradie yet any talk of anti immigration is looked down upon as bigotry explain that one with your superior critique.

    Ps I am 33 and traveled all around the globe and I dont want to live in a class driven society like singapore or hongkong hence why we have a man drought you know dont marry a tradie yuck but condeme racism.

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  72. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Who says they are law abiding citizens now? Dragging twelve year olds out of school and ”marrying” them in the mosque is against the law..”Marrying” 40 yr old s to 12/13 yr olds is against the law..These men are committing statutory rape..
    Quite a few years back , a friend in the Wgtn region sent her daughter to boarding school to get her away from the local leery, Iraqi males..There has been incidences of muslim men raping local girls in Wgtn and Chch and probably other places…It is only a matter of time before we get the horrendous muslim gang rape which so many other countries have endured and are continuing to endure….including Aussie.

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  73. Sean (294 comments) says:

    Kowtow is about the closest here to getting to the point. I live in the Middle East and I think some commentators are confusing multiculturalism with religion. You can get New Zealand ice cream or burgers in Dubai if you want to (that’s multiculturalism); but you cannot eat them in public during Ramadan (that’s religion). Its the latter that makes the rules, not the former. The latter does not have a concept of tolerance for difference. When there are enough adherents to a religion in a particular place, tolerance will disappear.

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  74. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    OG

    Get the chip off your shoulder -I basically get looked down upon by labour voting snobs for being a tradie .

    Well ,if you are standing around going on about the fact that downtown Auckland is getting taken over by the Chinese in front of a bunch of school teachers you are going to have problems. duh. ( Its called racisim )

    And if you can’t get a chick, I can’t help you there, but you sound so negative you’d bore the tits off them

    Now, young fella me lad, get out amongst it with a good positive attitude and remember even immigrants need tradesmen.

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  75. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    A War of Birthrates: ISLAM-MUSLIM DEMOGRAPHICS and BIRTH RATES

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0U5Kw57iv4

    If this video doesn’t give you reason to pause, then nothing will – should be compulsory viewing!

    Hat tip: Son of Liberty – Crusader Rabbit.

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  76. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay 6:09 pm,

    … and not a hint of condescension.

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  77. Pauleastbay (5,030 comments) says:

    Not a drop Kris, – but on topic, I do think Sean has nailed it above , splitting culture and religion, religion is where the problems are.

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  78. Jack5 (4,224 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay – a tradie? C’mon, with your writing style and words and views I doubt you’re a “tradie”.

    An immigration consultant, maybe. Public relations, perhaps. Some white-collar commission job, perhaps. ACT member, perhaps. More likely youngish Nat.

    What honest, Kiwi, salt-of the earth tradesman uses the phrases “our post script is nonsensical rubbish” and “you maoist bleeding heart liberal idiot” and “I must not confuse my political ideologies”.

    Paul, you wax on about Maoists, but I reckon you might support Natural Dairy, which has some high ranking Chinese on its share register, in the Nat. Dairy bid to buy the Crafar farms.

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  79. Jack5 (4,224 comments) says:

    Sean posted at 5.58:

    …you can get New Zealand ice cream or burgers in Dubai if you want to (that’s multiculturalism)

    No it ain’t. It’s just trade. Multiculturalism is an ideology. Please seem my 12.17 post for where you can read about it.

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  80. transmogrifier (518 comments) says:

    Mike, you misread my post (willfully, I guess, seeing as you seem to have some weird little insistence that I’m a lefty indoctrinater that should be deregistered from teaching). When I said “home country” I mean the county where they chose to live, where their home is. So, immigrants are welcome as long as they follow our laws.

    Of course, it you had bothered to read the second part of what I wrote, that would have been obvious to you. Makes me wonder why you didn’t quote that part as well. A bit of selective arguing so you can maintain your delusion about who you think I am, perhaps?

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  81. adze (1,695 comments) says:

    It’s a mistake to try to entirely separate religion (and language) from culture. Particularly in the case of Islam; I have seen claims that 20% of the original Arabic quran cannot be adequately translated into any other language.

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