Scoop and NBR say a coup is on

March 25th, 2011 at 7:25 pm by David Farrar

Selwyn Manning at Scoop writes:

Scoop has also learnt that indeed a cabal representing a group within caucus is counting numbers against Goff.

Maryan Street and Ruth Dyson are representing a cabal that is seeking support for to replace Goff. And rumours that Helen Clark and her strong-arm strategist Heather Simpson have been consulted appear to have some substance.

Today, Scoop understands Parker has the numbers to roll Goff. He does have the support of the majority of the Labour caucus. But Scoop also understands the cabal will not make its move to roll the leader until Goff absorbs full responsibility for his handling of the Hughes affair.

Also, Labour’s caucus will not be meeting this coming week, leaving little opportunity for a formal leadership vote to be put.

While Parker has Street and Dyson counting the numbers, Goff is left undefended. Hughes was his chief whip, he would normally go bidding for the leader. But with him out of the picture it is left to Stevie Chadwick who does not have the clout to stave off a leadership coup.

The earliest this situation can be put to bed is when caucus meets in over one week’s time. That is unless a crisis meeting is called with all Labour Mps returning to Wellington to vote.

Scoop understands that when the Parker cabal finally decides to make its move, Annette King will also be rolled from her deputy leadership position.

This is a very detailed story, so one can only assume there is significant substance to it.

Also NBR reported today:

Word from inside the party is that the New York branch (aka former leader Helen Clark) has been involved in secret talks over the future of current leader . …

“I am reliably informed that Labour rank and file are planning a challenge to Goff,” a well-placed insider told NBR.

“David Parker, Maryan Street and Ruth Dyson – with the approval of the New York office – are gathering numbers to see what can be done,” the source said.

Mr Goff’s handling of the Hughes event was the final straw.

If the plotters have the numbers, they don’t actually have to wait until the next Caccus meeting. If a majority of MPs are willing to sign a letter saying they want Goff to go, then they can just present it to him in Auckland – and he will probably resign rather than test a vote.

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133 Responses to “Scoop and NBR say a coup is on”

  1. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    I don’t see how Goff can survive this. I can’t see him lasting the weekend – there seems to be far too much open detail for them not to be confident.

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  2. Monty (980 comments) says:

    Oh joy oh joy. Thank you Dazza. Not a good week for Labour. They bring in someone unheard of except for political geeks. So far John Key has seen off two leaders and soon to be three (wait for a demolition job on 26 November.

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  3. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    Maryan Street and Ruth Dyson were key plotters against Mike Moore when he was leader.

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  4. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    Monty, the best a revamped Labour can realistically hope for is to have made a decent start to rebuilding and regaining ground by November, but at least that gives them a year more to prepare for 2014 than limping along with Goff.

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  5. david@tokyo (263 comments) says:

    Was hoping Goff would stay on for another 8 months. Ah well.

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  6. davidp (3,588 comments) says:

    >And rumours that Helen Clark and her strong-arm strategist Heather Simpson have been consulted appear to have some substance.

    Clark is a senior official of the UN. Is it normal for UN officials to deal directly with opposition parties in member nations? Especially in internal political matters? I would have thought any contact would be via the elected government.

    I’d like to see the government take this up with Ban Ki-moon.

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  7. immigant (950 comments) says:

    Isn’t this just a re-shuffle of the same weatherbeaten old faces? It’s not like anyone radicaly new or young for that matter will scoop up the reigns of leadership when Goff is put out to pasture.

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  8. scanner (340 comments) says:

    What is it with the woman, even from thousands of miles away the she beast still thinks she can run this country, Helen a majority of the population can’t stand you or your conniving right hand man aka H2, and we still linger on in the shadow of lies and manipulation that was your trademark for all those years.
    Go away you meddling bitch, we don’t need you or your hand picked proteges, why do you continue to meddle and interfere.

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  9. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,754 comments) says:

    Labour are really trying to beat Bill English’s record for worst result in an election. They’ll end up with less MP’s than 2008. Making 2014 a guaranteed loss.

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  10. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    immigant, yes, but that’s all they’ve got to play with at the moment. A new shuffle now might at least guide some better refreshing in the November line-up.

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  11. Steve (4,593 comments) says:

    Welcome to the real world Mr Goff. Aunty Helen and the feminazis have fucked you big time.
    Time for a cup of tea and a lay down for you Mr. This is punishment for not allowing the friendly few to have control of Liarbore.

    If we ever have a Labour Government in the future, they could make homosexuality compusory

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  12. lofty (1,317 comments) says:

    I absolutely agree with davidp, who does the witch from New York think she is.

    JK does need to take this up with clarks boss.

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  13. David Garrett (7,565 comments) says:

    I’m just a disgraced pollie and not a political analyst…but can someone explain why in His name someone would want to take on the Labour leadership NOW, with a thrashing almost inevitable in 7 months time? Surely whoever wishes to lead that sorry band would do what Clark did to Moore, and wait until AFTER the November thrashing and knife poor old Phil then?

    Genuine question….

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  14. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    …or do what Clark did to Geoffrey Palmer and change leader before the thrashing?

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  15. lofty (1,317 comments) says:

    A good question mr Garrett, but more importantly I hope he does piss off as my ipredict stocks will boom in the light of this.

    The chance of one of the rainbow tossers (or a sycophant) having their dirty paws on power will over ride the poison chalice, mark my words.

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  16. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    David G – the sooner they start to actually rebuild the better, it will be easy to forgive a loss in November, but at least they get a head start for 2014. The current situation is untenable.

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  17. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Didn’t Parker come under some scrutiny over business dealings some time ago?

    Didn’t Street come under scrutiny over her partner absolutely taking the piss over spousal air fares?

    Didn’t Dyson get the spanish archer for EBA and was hounded to the back of the room for a while?

    Fuck me, just thinking there is no one other than Robinson and he’s too new yet, that has not had some really negative publicity over the last couple of years.

    Absolutely staggering that a major political party is so full of lying , law breaking piss taking arseholes that the only one morally up for the job is Goff and he’s fucking useless,, staggering, just staggering

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  18. niggly (831 comments) says:

    Probably the “factions” are trying to take control (hence why now rather than after the election)?

    If the Rainbows via David Parker are going to make a grab, perhaps another faction may also be doing the same, so the outcome could be anyone’s guess? Then again Goff might survive for a bit longer. Interesting times.

    I do feel digusted though about the way the worn out old guard (Street and Dyson) ie that the public have no time for, are using “honest” looking David Parker as the front face of their spearhead attack, to win public approval to get “them” into power.

    I also suggest reading (or borrowing from the library) Ian Wishart’s Absolute Power – I certainly don’t trust that dishonest cretin Parker to be a Labour leader. He’d also be a puppet to his masters pulling the strings.

    (And let’s not tangent off here about Ian Wishart and conspiracy theories. Absolute Power is damning of Parker, if there wasn’t any substance Parker could have sued and he didn’t).

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  19. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    Parker cautiously stood down but was cleared.

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  20. Monty (980 comments) says:

    David G – you did the honourable thing.

    Dazza has some extremely charges against him being investigated. It has probably come out today that charges will be laid. That is why he has resigned. This thread is of course about Goff, and his soon to be terminated political career. He has been extremely exposed as being inept. Chris Carter was of course truthful and at least the 17 knew this. The 17 has now become nearly everyone. What is inexplicable is their choice of a nobody replacement who also happened to be a list MP. And the deputy is also a list MP. I think Labour would have been better to choose Grant Robertson. A good guy and a smart political operator who could probably have held his own against John Key – but the role is a poisoned chalice, and whoever is leader will take Labour to a defeat worse than that suffered by the Nats in 2002.

    This has been a great week for those on the right. I have enjoyed the self destruction of Labour.

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  21. Bed Rater (239 comments) says:

    Of course this might mean that Key is now up against an opposition leader who a) isn’t a bumbling fool, and b) the electorate hasn’t had enough of.

    If Key has to drop his relaxed, do nothing attitude that has really angered people from both sides of the political spectrum how will he perform, is he anything if up against some competition?

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  22. immigant (950 comments) says:

    Sometimes I wish we lived in a Bannana republic, so when political leaders were toppled, there woudl be gunfire, bus burnings and crowds of unshaven youth chanting in the street, holding up photos of other political leaders. I feel NZ lacks that, consiquently significant political events go unnoticed by the masses due to lack of that essential circus element.

    Immagine: Today on Campbell live — Unwashed youths burned down two buses in central Wellington as news of the Labour Sex Scandal spreads. Now crossing live for a live interview with Phill Goff.

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  23. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    Bed Rater, it will be good to see Key challenged solidly, not too much negative I hope, but keep him on his toes.

    I see being on the list is a plus for leader, they can concentrate on one thing without having to also attend to an electorate, especially in November. There’s a hell of a lot of work to do.

    I think the main positions in the main parties at least should be people on the list. I don’t think two-hats-Key makes sense.

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  24. Michaels (1,318 comments) says:

    Agree with Garrett, can’t see it happening.

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  25. niggly (831 comments) says:

    Pete – read the book, and see the pictures of the documents that supposedly “cleared him” and weigh it up yourself like I did. I won’t spoil the plot, but have a read.

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  26. Steve (4,593 comments) says:

    Just don’t stop the self destruction. I have months of popcorn stored away

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  27. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    immigant said “Imagine: Today on Campbell live”

    Actually, Sue Kedgley was a guest on tonight’s programme. A riot would have been more entertaining.

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  28. wreck1080 (3,972 comments) says:

    why would you mutiny on a sinking ship?

    I’d have thought they’d wait until after the next election, then roll goff and and least the new leader can say they haven’t been responsible for losing an election.

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  29. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    Anyone who would willingly take over Labour now is dreaming. The time to do that was 12 months ago. All this is doing is showing labour to factional, and unable to provide stability in their own caucus. and they want to govern?????

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  30. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    David Garrett asks:

    why in His name someone would want to take on the Labour leadership NOW, with a thrashing almost inevitable in 7 months time?

    DPF already answered that one… to drive your standard into the head of the rotting carcas that is now the Labour Party, lest someone else (i.e. Andrew Little) stick his in before you. It’s not so much flogging a dead horse as fighting to be it’s jockey.

    On another note… I vote for Trevor Mallard, but alas El Presidente for Life thought he was good enough to use for the occasional shoulder block and smear but entirely too forthright and independent for the kind of party she wanted Labour to become. And sadly – and inexplicably, at least to me – he let himself be used by her. Still a better option than any of the names being bandied around though – Grant Robertson is good, Monty, I agree, but they need someone more seasoned right now.

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  31. Viking2 (11,576 comments) says:

    There is a list of pollies as long as your arm that have been up to no good or got into trouble and the Nats have had their share of them and plenty covered up. Plenty of Nat. Officials like Collins that screwed up on a desk.

    Trevor De Cleene knew who they all were and so did Muldoon.
    Like Rex says a code of conduct would be the right thing to do but unfortunately you cannot legislate morality. So look forward to more in the future.
    Especially if we continue to push young people to become MP’s.

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  32. Paul Marsden (999 comments) says:

    I care less who ‘leads’ this bunch of criminal miscreants, who live high on the hog on my taxes and contribute nothing to NZ’s economic prosperity.

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  33. starboard (2,552 comments) says:

    ..until liarbor get rid of all their sodomisers , lesbians , hippies , freakshows , general nutbars , they are not fit to govern.

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  34. Lindsay Addie (1,595 comments) says:

    My new Labour leadership dream team, any two of Parker, Cunners, or Street…………

    How charismatic does that sound?

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  35. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    V2

    Sure all parties have over the years had incidents, probably one per term, but this labour lot over the last 6 have been exceptional, starting with ‘ dear leader ‘ the forger et al.

    They are all professional committee men ,never had real jobs and as has been said here for ever , no life experience , they actually believe in their sense of entitlement and expect us to overlook their little peccadilloes. I am starting to fear for National as well, with the likes of Ross coming to Parliament with nothing behind him except a few flying lessons and the ability to stay awake during meetings.

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  36. lofty (1,317 comments) says:

    starboard is 100% correct.

    I love nutshell statements, no fucking around eh starboard.

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  37. niggly (831 comments) says:

    It doesn’t sound good at all LA.

    Imagine Parker as leader and Street as deputy, but waiting for her chance to make her move to take over (eg if Parker f’s up along the way). It would be like 1999-2008 again with loads of scheming and plotting. (Sheesh don’t these people like Street and Dyson, H1 and H2, realise the NZ voter got sick of all that and that’s one major reason why Labour were voted out)?

    Perhaps I shouldn’t have been so negative about Parker before (alledging dishonesty), but I still contend he is (and has been) a puppet to the H1 & H2 fan club, if anything they have been the dishonest ones in the way they have used him over the years (and probably helped get his name cleared a few years ago).

    If Parker had any integrity he would refuse the poison challice of leadership with this lot backing him.

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  38. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    Someone’s got to step up and try and rescue Labour, I can’t think of anyone else with the experience and lack of real baggage to do it, I think Parker is probably the best options they have right now.

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  39. David Garrett (7,565 comments) says:

    I will never forget a televised press conference after the 1992 election when Clark obviously had the numbers against Moore…the poor bastard was appealing to her on (I think live) TV to confirm he still had her support….I can still see him literally imploring her to endorse him…and her cold, hard emotionless eyes refusing to meet his….and I used to think the North Sea was rough and unforgiving working environment!

    Having read all the comments above, I still can’t see Parker or anyone else wanting the chalice at this point….and as for Mr. A Little….bounder doesn’t settle his bets….(it was four bottles of Lindauer Reserve Andrew, just drop them off act ACT HQ in Newmarket)

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  40. sooty (65 comments) says:

    YEAH!!! Judith Tizzard. Welcome back. Labour have got just the job for you. On the first day back, they are going to elect you as the new leader.

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  41. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Well Pete, if he’s it they are well fucked, time for a new party altogether.

    Not a bad idea that, my 70+ year old parents are life long labour voters and apart from being deeply disappointed in their son’s politics are well over the gay labour party.

    My old man is what used to be the back bone of labour, i.e an absolutely guaranteed vote every three years — not anymore.

    Mum says,=— I am so sick of those silly women they have there

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  42. MT_Tinman (3,263 comments) says:

    Rex, I wonder if you’re not 100% wrong.

    Goff has no credibility and a change to Dyson/Street/Parker would see them also tainted after the upcoming thrashing making the way for Little so much easier 12 months hence.

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  43. Lindsay Addie (1,595 comments) says:

    Obviously they still mostly have the same old tired retreads on the front bench so the talent pool is a severe drought. Personally I want Cunners to take over, he’d be fantastic.

    For National that is……….

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  44. Andrew (59 comments) says:

    The one big problem with those articles is that Ruth Dyson, like most local MPs, is in Christchurch dealing with the earthquake. I highly doubt she is running around doing the numbers down there.

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  45. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    Phil Goff will have the support of Andrew Little, in the same way that Bill Rowling had the support of Jim Anderton.

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  46. Nookin (3,472 comments) says:

    LA

    “I want Cunners to take over, he’d be fantastic.” — as a sedative, maybe , but then who would want a soporific leader day in day out?

    PG

    “Someone’s got to step up and try and rescue Labour …”. Why?

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  47. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    WP for starters.

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  48. big bruv (14,165 comments) says:

    David Parker???

    Bill Rowling lives again!!!

    Somebody really need to tell that crusty old cow in NY that she has been rejected by the voters of NZ and that she should keep her nose out ot domestic affairs.

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  49. niggly (831 comments) says:

    I suppose one has to see the funny side in all this, sit back and laugh all the way to the election!

    They say sunlight disinfects, so it will be funny to see the Labour factions plotting and scheming to roll Goff with “their man” or “their woman” etc.

    Let the lolly scramble begin, to see who wins the battle to take the poison challice of leadership that Goff has had to endure.

    The MSM will be loving it, the factions will be feeding the MSM their spin on their “great plans”, meanwhile the factions will be bumbling and stumbling, but like H1 falling over to greet a voter just prior to the election in 08, these factions will be springing up again after their tumbles and falls, as if nothing had happened a moment before!

    Who said we need to stock up on popcorn, sit back and enjoy the show (of the train-wreck self destructing again and again until Nov 26, as the Labour egos put on their ‘smiles and waves’ for the public and MSM)? :-)

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  50. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    Having just watched Goff’s performance on Close up, I would imagine Parker’s numbers just firmed up.

    Goff should have got rid of Hughes as soon as he was made aware of what happened. Really, he has been pathetic through this whole debacle, and he just keeps getting worse.

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  51. Barnsley Bill (983 comments) says:

    Suggestions of Robertson taking the helm are ridiculous. After the events of the last few years with senior gay men in Labour it is unlikely that they would be stupid enough to allow one to spearhead the party.
    Tantrums, troughing, entitleitis and now naked teenagers fleeing means that any queer wanting the top job will find it tough getting NZ to trust and take him seriously.. Irrespective of how good many commenters and commentators think GR may be.
    If they want a bloke they need to exclude queers, masturbators on the company credit card and silent T.
    That only leaves Plughead and Mallard.
    Plug head is concussed permanently from the multiple beatings Crusher has handed out to him and Mallard is probably happy to stay on the morphine for a few months and avoid having to run interference for another massive cluster fuck.

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  52. dog_eat_dog (790 comments) says:

    How long until Helen just facepalms once too often and just comes back to take the reigns again?

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  53. magic bullet (776 comments) says:

    This will take Labour further left on Key policy. That may well be enough to sink National Inc.

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  54. big bruv (14,165 comments) says:

    Think about this righties…we need a far stronger Labour party than we have, the other option for the left is that they vote Green.

    Just when we had the very real chance of getting rid of the watermelons some stupid ginga goes and waves his willy around and fucks things up.

    Let’s hope we get a good Labour leader, one who galvanises the party and takes votes from the Greens.

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  55. lofty (1,317 comments) says:

    heh Barnsley..so eloquent and yet so pithy.

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  56. Lindsay Addie (1,595 comments) says:

    Goff has found out the hard way that as Leader of the Opposition it’s a losing battle when you’re always playing defence and doing it very badly.

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  57. lofty (1,317 comments) says:

    I call BS on that Magic bullet..this will only take labour further into the wilderness, and bloody good job too!

    Integrity, responsibility, & honesty are still missing pal.

    Lesbians, Homo’s, wankers, teachers, child MP’s are not going to cut it now. The rainbow days are over thank God.

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  58. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    David Garrett,

    “why in His name someone would want to take on the Labour leadership NOW, with a thrashing almost inevitable in 7 months time?”

    Because they have already accepted they have lost in November, so to take the reins now and lose will not cost them the job after the inevitable defeat. It will (as Rex pointed out earlier) get them in the role ahead of the rest of the vultures.

    I have maintained for some time that Little’s plan is not to wait for a term, but to challenge within 12 months of Goff losing the election [no one seemed to agree, but that only serves to make me as wise as the Captain in Black Adder II (not that I’m lining up to be a second course for anyone).] By staging a coup now, Cunnliffe can seize the only chance he has (unopposed) to take the leadership. I think he will do it because he will think he can survive the election loss (and, more to the point, to wait longer opens the door to more challengers.)

    I think the biggest thing standing in his way is that his own party colleagues have the same perception of him as many others – smarmy, elitist, nonce will do (not a psychological profile.)

    The possible flea in that ointment is Grant Robertson. Not because of any natural capability or fit to the role, nor because anyone feels his lack of political seasoning is a problem. But because he could be seen as a more palatable alternative for a leader now for an election that is already lost.

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  59. RRM (10,034 comments) says:

    Rex – The other thing with Mallard is that he is, presently, stuck in hospital with drips in his nose and bits of builder’s hardware holding various bones together.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4790024/Mallard-breaks-femur-and-shoulder-blade-in-crash
    Maybe this on top of the embarassing sexual practises in Hataitai have combined to present an opportunity too good to miss?

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  60. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    By the way, on this subject… The predicament for Labour now is squarely at the feet of Helen Clark [if you view this in a commercial context.]

    In 9 years of government she failed to construct a ‘succession plan’ – instead, clinging on to personal control as the only means to maintain the right sort of control for her on the reigns of government. That worked very well for her while she was in control, but that anachronistic approach to party leadership resulted in a capability vacuum when she lost and then resigned from parliament.

    Had she spent more time grooming a successor, the current state of affairs could have been avoided. That is what any decent management practice dictates in the commercial sector.

    I do not think John Key will make the same error. In fact, I would be more than willing to stake some real money if ipredict would put up some odds on it.

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  61. magic bullet (776 comments) says:

    Also – why is it that National’s closet cases stay so well hidden?

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  62. magic bullet (776 comments) says:

    Oh but wait – Murray – listen the feminazis organised the bike crash, and the 18 yr old to entrap Hughes, and now have their team at the helm again. You can bet Helen actually used UN secret service devision to execute the whole plot. Dastardly feminazis. They be after your balls next!

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  63. niggly (831 comments) says:

    Just read that NBR article, interesting that they suggest the timing of H1’s visit to Chch coincides with when Goff would have found out from Hughes that he had been in trouble with the Police (and thus was the quake visit may simply have been a ‘cover’. Either that or a coincidence).

    Interesting NBR should suggest that, and if it weren’t a coincidence, H1 hits dirt bottom.

    So could Goff have been set-up to fail, or given very bad advice deliberately, on how to handle the cover up of Hughes? And now those that had mislead him are making their play?

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  64. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Magic.. sometimes the cause is lost, you have no traction on this one………theres no humour even , you are just sounding like those sad bastards that flog the ” Daily Worker on K Road… a tiny bit pathetic

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  65. Steve Wrathall (285 comments) says:

    When was the last Labour leader never to make PM?

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  66. Samuel Hill (63 comments) says:

    Who cares about the dirty background tricks and gossip.

    If Parker replaces Goff, as far as I’m concerned this is only good news for Labour. Labour have looked almost as weak in opposition as the Bill English lead National did following the fall of their 1990’s regime. David Parker atleast brings some youthful bite and will surely be a more smiteful opponent for Key than the bumbling Goff.

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  67. Samuel Hill (63 comments) says:

    I think that was Nordmeyer

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  68. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    Steve,

    I think that would be Mike Moore. (I would have a smidgen of empathy for him if it were not for the “long, dark night” concession speech)

    Before him Geoffrey Palmer was PM, but not elected as such [admittedly an argument Clark used against Shipley.] Rowling was the same (I think… He inherited the position on Kirk’s death, but then Muldoon rolled him with the dancing cossacks.]

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  69. Samuel Hill (63 comments) says:

    Winston Peters to Labour. Only real contrast to Key!

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  70. Yvette (2,853 comments) says:

    “Someone’s got to step up and try and rescue Labour”

    Why?

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  71. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    bhudson:

    *Bzzzt* Sorry, Moore was PM from September to November 1990. Thanks for playing :-P

    [I was reminded of that recently because I tripped myself up suggesting I’d advised him “as PM” during the 1996 coalition negotiations when in fact he was just chief negotiator for Labour so I’m an even bigger wally than you, but I’m struggling to maintain an air of superiority, so best not to mention that] :-D

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  72. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Arnold Nordmeyer,

    chocolate fish please

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  73. reid (16,638 comments) says:

    Today, Scoop understands Parker has the numbers to roll Goff. He does have the support of the majority of the Labour caucus. But Scoop also understands the cabal will not make its move to roll the leader until Goff absorbs full responsibility for his handling of the Hughes affair.

    Aren’t lefties just the best people in the whole wide world Timmy?

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  74. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    Rex,

    Really?? My God he was desperate for the role. Happy to stand corrected (although that does put him in the same happy waka as Rowling, Palmer & Shipley)

    Hmmm. You do have to wonder whether his ego was running overtime, or if he was listening to the wrong people.

    Still… Perhaps he is an inspiration to either or both of Cunnliffe and Robertson. [Parker would be an absolute case of ‘taking one for the team’ – but for what purpose?]

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  75. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    pauleastbay,

    Why a chocolate fish when you have the choice of the finest real catches up there in the Bay of Plenty? You can have the kudos, but, please, share the real fish with us poor folk.

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  76. tom hunter (5,096 comments) says:

    ….sometimes the cause is lost, you have no traction on this one…

    Poor old magic bullet. He and Maggie’s desperate attempts to change the narrative remind me of those sad, teenage Deutsches Jungvolk being interviewed in April 1945 on the outskirts of Berlin by the regime’s movie makers.

    Speaking of which – isn’t it about time Whaleoil or some other rightie blogger got to work on the next NZedised version of the Downfall Youtube clip. I know it’s been done to death but it was made for moments like this.

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  77. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    Woohoo!! Thanks Goff and iPredict, you paid for my night out ;)

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  78. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    Tom, Thanks for the prompt… If I were a paranoid (which I am not, because I know exactly which IP address is reading this)… I might dwell on the fact that “SPC” became very silent once the resignation took place. If ‘they are all out to get me’ I might wonder if that [very infrequent visitor] was a Labour supporter [troll] just tying to divert proceedings while Phil negotiated a way out.

    By the way… It will be enlightening to say the least if the allegations are now dropped

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  79. stu-tron (45 comments) says:

    It was almost painful watching goff on close up tonight as he stumbled his way through questioning…funny…but painfully funny.

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  80. stu-tron (45 comments) says:

    From a strategic point of view I think the only rationale for taking leadership right now would be that you’d end the year at a higher point in the polls than where they are at now so at least you can lead into the next election on the platform of having started the ‘re-birth’..gutsy move but would kill off anyone elses leadership moves for at least another 3 years…

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  81. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    stu-tron,

    Which is exactly why I suggested Cunliffe (or even Robertson) would make a move right now before Little Andrew has a chance to put a spoke in the wheels…

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  82. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    I think you’re right there stu-tron – Labour are better to try and be at least on the way back up by November rather than still stuttering along.

    bhudson, the current word is that it’s going to be Parker.

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  83. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    bhudson:

    You do have to wonder whether his ego was running overtime, or if he was listening to the wrong people.

    To be fair to Mike (for whom I have a great deal of respect), neither. You’ll recall that Lange had handed the reins to Geoffrey Palmer who, for whatever other qualities he may have, has all the charisma of an Easter Island statue (to which he bears a striking physical resemblance).

    The polls were saying Labour under Palmer would be decimated at the election – exactly the situation facing them now with Goff. Moore realised it was political suicide to take over at that point but he is, as he says “tribal Labour” and decided he would take one for the team but only on the basis that it was acknowledged that he had no chance at all of winning and that he wouldn’t, in effect, be punished for his sacrifice.

    Indeed he said quite openly at the time to the caucus that, while he could not win the election for Labour, he would help save more seats than staying with the incumbent.

    They duly elected him. He duly lost, but did in fact preserve more seats for Labour than the polls were suggesting would have been held under Palmer. National got 67 seats and Labour just 29.

    At the next election Moore had made massive inroads, reducing National’s margin to just 5 seats (National 50, Labour 45). Most people seemed to think he’d get a second chance, and most believed he deserved it.

    But the deal he’d struck wasn’t honoured, however, by his power-obsessed and devious Deputy, one Helen Elizabeth Clark, who promptly knifed him.

    The circumstances, as graphically outlined by David Garrett above, are worth repeating:

    the poor bastard was appealing to her on (I think live) TV to confirm he still had her support….I can still see him literally imploring her to endorse him…and her cold, hard emotionless eyes refusing to meet his

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  84. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    Pete,

    Yes, I read that too. But why? Given he must also know that November is unwinnable – who would he be warming the seat for? Andrew Little? Yes. I could see a play there, but surely, so would all of the other Labour caucus members. There would be more than a little manipulation going on if that play was to be made right now.

    Actually., I could see that. But I think the odds are just a little more on an incumbent right now, than a seat warmer for Little.

    Your (intended or otherwise) serpentine logic could be right, but I think Little is not yet ready to make his moves

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  85. stu-tron (45 comments) says:

    Little is a pussy – that’s why he hides behind 3 jobs. He wants to take the safe route – hence probably wouldn’t challenge someone else going for the leadership now thinking they would just be a place maker until after november – but – if anyone taking the leadership now can put in a decent enough effort they will possibly have the mandate to retain the leadership into the new term making it very difficult for Little. God forbid they then win or at least make a fight of the 2014 election then little is stuffed and will possibly miss out on the leadership for keeps…as I said – it’s a gutsy move but could work.

    It’s risky moving too soon on a leadership bid…but just as risky leaving it too long.

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  86. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    Rex,

    Thank you for that. I do agree that Moore made inroads as you suggested. Equally, I recall his reaction when those inroads did not match the result his ego projected/demanded – the long, dark night speech.

    Also (for historical reference only and not pedanticism (??) ), Lange did not so much hand over the reigns to Palmer as have them surgically removed during hours [months] long operation to have him finally realise that his empire building was at an end and he was actually David, not Julius.

    Mike Moore was a far greater ‘diplomat at large’/WTO advocate (and Head) than a PM.

    My perception of his time was that he failed miserably to be the domestic leader he could have been, but then redeemed himself as an extremely good NZ leader on the world trade stage

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  87. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    stu-tron,

    Yep! And that is why I think this has been the real game over the last 12 months. Cunnliffe will make a play to safeguard years of aspiration, Robertson will be opportunistic, and Little needs a seat warmer…

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  88. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    Well, notice that the LNP in Qld just did. Elected a guy leader who isn’t in parliament – he needs to win his seat (a marginal, even labour leaning, seat), and then take the leadership. They did it because they were in trouble. You don’t get more trouble than Labour are currently in. Why doesn’t Little chuck his hat in the ring?

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  89. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    It’s pretty plain that none of the Labour MP’s seriously think they have a chance this year. None of them [edit – none of the savvy ones] realistically want to roll Goff this side of the election. It’ll be a big jostling for position building up to November, then a sprint for the leadership. Little is being cautious on that front while collecting his incomes, but I see it quite possible that he’ll leave his run too late and be passed over, probably by Cunners. Parker is pretty smart but I think also he’s pacing himself. He’ll let Cunners run out of puff before he starts his sprint. Even from this distance I’d say Labour aren’t going to be favourites going into 2014 unless National fail to invigorate the economy. Their softly softly approach this term is understandable, if lamentable, but they won’t get away with a second term of putting new pictures up without changing the wallpaper.

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  90. Richard Hurst (874 comments) says:

    No, no, no. The plan works like this- Phil Goff stays as leader, takes the rap for everything and Labour gets savaged in the 2011 election- then Phil resigns along with a lot of the old guard and Andrew Little then takes over and targets the 2014 election. I’m sure this has been the plan ever since Helen lost the last election. By then Key will be getting tired of being PM, people will be grumbling more and the govt will have been in power for two terms so they’ll be getting more crap from the media etc. Somewhere Andrew Little is giggling to himself and saying “Yes…everything is going according to plan.” (evil laugh, dramtic music, screen fads out).

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  91. SPC (5,787 comments) says:

    There isn’t anyone ready now.

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  92. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    I edited to say none of the savvy ones when I thought about what Chris Carter tried to do. He passionately wanted Labour to fight for real for this election, but wasn’t smart enough to see that the strategy was to go this round without taking too many punches. Land some blows where they can, even if it’s beneath the belt, and come out fresher for the next round. That would involve cutting some of the older faces, the ones associated with the H Clark party, as opposed to the newer representatives of Labour. In all reality Labour are struggling to have independent thought without her. It’s a leadership vacuum. and I don’t think any of them are PM material. They’re failing to be an effective opposition, who’d vote them as government?

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  93. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    Richard,

    I agree with you that Little will contest the 2014 election as Labour leader (it seems to me that most pundits on this blog have dismissed his leadership aspirations until after the 2014 election – on the basis that you have to serve at least one term ‘in office’ before taking the leadership.)

    That is a big reason why I think Cunliffe (and just maybe Robertson) will be looking to make a move now – secure a ‘reasonable’ loss in November 2011 and buy time through to 2014 – keeping Little out.

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  94. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    I’m not sure about how Little will fit into it yet. Presuming he gets in (likely on the list at least) he may find it a lot more competitive than he’s used to, from being top dog in his union to being amongst a pack of power hungry mongrels. His rise is not a given, certainly not for three or so years at least.

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  95. SPC (5,787 comments) says:

    Don’t discount Shearer

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  96. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    SPC,

    I have watched Shearer in the House – I find it all but impossible not to discount him

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  97. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    Pete,

    “to being amongst a pack of power hungry mongrels”

    A pack of mongrels he controls through his continued influence on the EPMU and unions in general… I would think that is actually in his favour.

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  98. RightNow (7,013 comments) says:

    sooner or later Labour will have to cut the union vote free or they’ll never rule again

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  99. David Garrett (7,565 comments) says:

    With respect to all commentators on this thread, as a person who has actually been in the bear pit – albeit for a very short time – all this talk about Little sweeping in and instantly becoming leader is totally unrealistic. Being the LEADER of a political party in parliament – as opposed to the party in the electorate – is one helluva task, and requires a great deal of ability and experience. Some exceptional people – like Lange – develop the skills to perform in the House and handle the myriad other things a leader must do very quickly. Others – like a certain devious blonde bimbo, and numerous seat warmers on both sides of the House – would never have the skills if they stayed there 50 years.

    As someone above said, there is a light year (or years) difference between being top dog in a union and dealing with the herd of cats riven by agendas and factionalism that is the modern Labour party, the founders of which would certainly be spinning in their graves if they were to see the ” those of today’s equivalent of the man who takes the tram home to his family at 5 o’clock.

    As for others like Robertson and Shearer… Robertson is no Lange, and Shearer is distinctly underwhelming in the House. Again, being a major success for the UN (or in some other field) is absolutely no guide to ability in theunique maelstrom that is parliamentary politics.

    There is another even better example of how success in another related field doesn’t mean diddly, but my current position compels me to refrain from comment on that self important and entirely unworldly individual.

    No, you can forget Little, Shearer and Robertson in the short and even – with the possible exception of Robertson – the medium term as leaders. Having read all the comments carefully (sleepless, waiting for my wife who is hopefully on a plane out of Tonga) I still think the most likely scenario is allow poor Phil to lose badly in Novmeber and then knife him.

    As my sparring partner Rex W has noted, Moore did a deal to lose and then be given another shot, and the cold bloodless one knifed him anyway. I had a few decent conversations with David Parker – he is not stupid, and he is unlikely to be unaware of the realities of ( particularly Labour) party politics.

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  100. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    Sounds like a good assessment DG. Whoever takes over Labour, whether it’s by Monday or not until next December or January, are going to have a very difficult job reviving Labour. For the good of our parliament I hope they succeed, unlike some here I think we benefit from all parties being strong.

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  101. David Garrett (7,565 comments) says:

    The second half of the second para has mysteriously ommited some words, so it is nonsensical. It should read:

    “….the founders [of the Labour Party] would certainly be spinning in their graves if they were to be shown the Rainbow Room, and have it explained to them that the tangata whenua were special people with special rights, and the needs of the “GLBT community” were now more important than those of today’s equivalent of the man who takes the tram home to his family at 5 o’clock”

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  102. emmess (1,433 comments) says:

    I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks Parker would be a more successful leader than Goff.

    Goff was a competent foreign minister.
    Parker, I found to be a weasely little creep when he was Climate Change Minister with his holier than thou eco-religiousity. He was one of small bunch of cabinet ministers that would make me yell at the TV during the Clark years.
    Maybe those skill sets don’t fullly translate to Party leader, but my money would be on him being even less popular than Goff.

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  103. David Garrett (7,565 comments) says:

    yeah…I think the speculation about Parker (as others have noted, there are murky financial dealings in his past, allegedly) is evidence of the dearth of talent, and the limited alternatives they have…

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  104. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    But what most stimulates me is the suggestion that Helen Clark’s weird visit to Chch was not out of concern for the people of that city, but in reality to work her magic over the Hughes fiasco. I recall the image of Goff standing deferentially beside her and thoought ‘Why isn’t he putting her in her place?’ Perhaps now we know – because she has his testicles in her pocket. Dead Man Walking.

    Who has been advising Goff? I’d love to know.

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  105. David Garrett (7,565 comments) says:

    Nothing about that Machiavellian …. person (Clark, not Goff) would surprise me….as everyone knows I am no choirboy, but my wrongdoing years ago is nothing to what she is capable of….for abuse of power she left Muldoon in the shade…But everyone else duly stood up and applauded her in the House when her NY sinecure was announced…

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  106. Inventory2 (10,443 comments) says:

    magic bullet said

    Also – why is it that National’s closet cases stay so well hidden?

    In case you hadn’t noticied, this thread is about Labour and Phil Goff’s increasingly dodgy tenure of the leadership. What a pathetic attempt to smear and divert …

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  107. Inventory2 (10,443 comments) says:

    Lee C asks

    Who has been advising Goff? I’d love to know.

    Francesca Mold and Kris Fa’afoi, from what I’ve heard. They are said to be working very closely together …

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  108. holysheet (434 comments) says:

    So now, who thinks john key jumped the gun in deciding to name the election date in november? What better time than now to have a snap election?
    As they say, a week is a long time in politics. What about winnie the pooh seeing the light, joins the lairbour party and becomes the leader. Imagine the fight between him and JK.

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  109. hj (7,067 comments) says:

    “My colleague David Parker has teased out some of the legal implications of the process of recognising customary interests, which is addressed in this part. I will pick up on this issue, because we have a situation where it is possible for the recognition of customary rights to be made by an agreement, by the recognition of an order of the court, or through legislation, through an Act. I think this process is really problematic. ”

    “The cry from the Māori Party was that it did not have its day in court. Now the Māori Party is looking to support secret deals that will not have their day in court unless this legislation is amended.”
    http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Debates/Debates/Speeches/d/e/4/49HansS_20110317_00000667-Street-Maryan-Marine-and-Coastal-Area-Takutai.htm
    Perhaps they feel Goff could have done a better job at exposing Nationals sophistry?

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  110. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    Rex said “At the next election Moore had made massive inroads, reducing National’s margin to just 5 seats ”

    However in NZ’s last FPP election in 1993, the total number of votes Labour received was only 25,000 more than in 1990. On the other hand, the total number of votes National received had declined by 200,000, while the Alliance received 350,000. So, it could be argued that the 1993 vote was more about the decline for National and the rise of the Alliance. Those campaigning for Clark argued this point .

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  111. Pete George (23,688 comments) says:

    So now, who thinks john key jumped the gun in deciding to name the election date in november?

    The reasons for naming the election date haven’t changed.

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  112. Peter (1,723 comments) says:

    Why is everyone so sold on Little?

    The man has less charisma than Phil Goff’s latest walk.

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  113. Inventory2 (10,443 comments) says:

    A political cynic like Helen Clark would exploit this scandal, and call an early election. John Key, thank goodness, is made of different stuff.

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  114. wat dabney (3,814 comments) says:

    John Key would make a good new leader of the Labour Party. It is, after all, his natural home.

    That would allow a right-winger to become leader of National (you know, someone with an interest in shrinking the size and scope of the state.)

    Everyone wins.

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  115. Gary2 (17 comments) says:

    Parker was an ineffective electorate MP, a poor people-person and even his electorate chair couldn’t get him to turn up to campaign events as much as he needed to. He lost the Otago electorate to Jacqui Dean in 2005 and will not even be campaigning for an electorate this election.

    It appears that he is very happy moving about in the halls of Wellington but has little interest or appeal outside of there. In my opinion, he will do worse than Goff… Bring him on!

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  116. GJ (329 comments) says:

    Labour is morally corrupt and unless this changes have virtually zero chance of rising from the ashes. A sad state off affairs for the politics within NZ.

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  117. starboard (2,552 comments) says:

    “Maybe those skill sets don’t fully translate to Party leader, but my money would be on him being even less popular than Goff”

    ..and

    “is evidence of the dearth of talent, and the limited alternatives they have”

    ..and

    “Who has been advising Goff? I’d love to know.”

    “Francesca Mold and Kris Fa’afoi, from what I’ve heard.”

    ..isnt it awesome.. The Nats wont even need to campaign this election..liarbor are just continually giving it away
    they have no talent , they are leaderless , they are fcuked. Thanks liarbor.

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  118. BeaB (2,150 comments) says:

    Is Little gay? What about Parker? I think we should know.
    And if they don’t want to tell us, why not?

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  119. Manolo (14,082 comments) says:

    Street, Dyson, H2 Simpson, Carter, and now Hughes: all Clark’s minions and acolytes.
    Do we need further proof the Rainbow faction runs a Labour Party which is out to roll Goff and put Parker in his place?

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  120. Manolo (14,082 comments) says:

    John Key, thank goodness, is made of different stuff.

    I admire your boundless optimism and sense of loyalty, but I don’t he is any different to other politicians. As any of the inhabitants of Parliament across the political spectrum, the current National leader is prepared to lie, break, and betray political promises whenever is convenient.

    His flexible and malleable principles, his political expediency, are “qualities” that allow Key to say yes to things he’s viscerally opposed to (or so he make us believe.)

    Undeniably, the National Party has abandoned its founding principles and traded them for a a “want to be everything to everybody” policy.

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  121. publicwatchdog (2,848 comments) says:

    One thing that this Darren Hughes matter confirms is ‘A WEEK IS A LONG TIME IN POLITICS’!

    In my view, the public don’t like what appears to be (yet unproven) sex scandals involving MPs – but they don’t like bribery and corruption, and self-serving, ‘nest-feathering’ MPs who want to turn public property into private property either.

    I would respectfully suggest that since there are many weeks to go before the 2011 General Election, that nothing be taken for granted in terms of the election result…….

    :)

    Penny Bright
    Public Watchdog
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  122. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    Are you making a pitch to be Labour Leader, Penny?

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  123. wat dabney (3,814 comments) says:

    “MPs who want to turn public property into private property either.”

    Actually the real problem is MPs who want to turn private property into public property.

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  124. publicwatchdog (2,848 comments) says:

    No.

    Anyone who knows my political track record knows that I have had significant differences with Labour (and City Vision) in the past on a number of issues.

    I’m an independent ‘Public Watchdog’, and aligned to no political party.

    That way, I can deal with matters on an ‘issue by issue’ basis, and work together with different people, organisations and Parties in order to maximise unity on each issue.

    If you want everyone to agree on everything – you’ll end up with three people.

    Broaden the base – narrow the target – don’t make political enemies out of those with whom you may agree on other issues.

    Respect ‘freedom of expression’ and the right of others to hold a view different to your own.

    Debate the ISSUES in a reasoned and civilised way without resorting to ad hominum attacks on the person, as opposed to the person’s ideas – or agree to disagree.

    You will note that when I comment on blogs such as this – I try to keep focused on the issues, and try not get personal and nasty – although I will stick up for myself and ‘take no shit’.

    ‘When the people lead – the politicans will follow’.

    …………………………

    Penny Bright
    Public Watchdog
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  125. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    Panny, thank you for pointing out that you don’t regard your repeated questions about the PM’s shareholdings as an “ad hominum attack.”

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  126. BeaB (2,150 comments) says:

    Penny Bright
    Do you ever you think you may have an over-inflated sense of your own importance?

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  127. publicwatchdog (2,848 comments) says:

    :Panny, thank you for pointing out that you don’t regard your repeated questions about the PM’s shareholdings as an “ad hominum attack.”

    Dead right.

    They are not.

    Penny Bright
    Public Watchdog
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  128. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    Penny, I apologise for inadvertently misspelling your name in my previous comment.

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  129. wat dabney (3,814 comments) says:

    When the people lead – the politicans will follow’.

    Except when politicians are offering to plunder other people’s money and “redistribute” the stolen proceeds to those who ‘follow’ them.

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  130. publicwatchdog (2,848 comments) says:

    # BeaB (659) Says:
    March 26th, 2011 at 10:47 am

    “Penny Bright
    Do you ever you think you may have an over-inflated sense of your own importance?”

    BeaB – ever considered that you are not making any attempt to give credit where it may be due, and you are not making a well-rounded, reasoned and considered judgment about my work (positive and negative – in your view)?

    FYI – both the Minister and Associate Ministers of Local Government have publicly acknowledged me as a ‘diligent ‘Public Watchdog’.

    (Despite our significant political differences on most issues).

    Mind you – they quite possibly have a much greater understanding of the (unpaid) work I do? :)

    Penny Bright
    Public Watchdog
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  131. publicwatchdog (2,848 comments) says:

    Cheers Rodders!

    No offence taken – thought it was probably just a typo.

    I suggest that people look for themselves and decide whether or not my ‘questions about the PM’s shareholdings’ are an “ad hominum attack”?

    I asked if the Prime Minister was personally profiting from NZ’s growing indebtedness (given his shareholding in the Bank of America), at a Grey Power public meeting on 3 February 2011.

    (It was filmed).

    A copy of the OIA reply from Bill English to my question ‘to whom exactly is NZ indebted’, is attached to the following
    ‘You Tube’ clip:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXwNoaOpDMw

    Penny Bright
    Public Watchdog
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  132. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    Penny, thanks for the link to the video of you questioning the PM.

    However, if any politician had the intention of profiteering from office, loose talk on the exchange rate, for example might have more potential of producing $ than an existing shareholding in an overseas bank.

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  133. SPC (5,787 comments) says:

    Those who think performance in the House is a determinant of choosing party leaders should consider the promotion of Brash and Key.

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