Muslim women say burqa is affront to human dignity

July 21st, 2011 at 12:00 pm by David Farrar

Lincoln Tan at NZ Herald reports:

A Muslim women’s group is expected to tell a public forum tonight that the is not a requirement in and it is “an affront to human dignity” for women to be forced to wear it.

Excellent. Meaningful change should come from within.

The group’s founder, Zainah Anwar, said on its website: “I find the burqa really disturbing.

“There is enough literature to show that the face veil is not a requirement in Islam.

“In a conservative, patriarchal Muslim context, face veiling really symbolises women’s invisibility and inferior status.

“That a woman should not be seen and heard, and should she venture into the public space she must be as invisible as possible, is an affront to human dignity.”

It is also quite unfriendly. If you are looking for a location and want to ask someone for directions, you won’t be asking someone who won’t even show you their face.

Note I have absolutely no issue with head scarves – just those which cover the face so you only see eyes.

The view was supported by the head of Islamic studies at the University of Auckland, Zain Ali.

He said the burqa was more a cultural requirement than an Islamic one.

“The Islamic requirement is for modest dressing, but what has happened in many parts of the Muslim world is that the burqa has been accepted as a norm for that modest dressing,” Mr Ali said.

“But the burqa is almost dehumanising and it robs the personality and the ability of someone to express themselves.”

Again it is good to see the debate happening amongst the Muslim community.

However Malaysian businessman Zulkifli Hamzah, who is in Auckland to help set up a Muslim “Obedient Wives Club” branch, said followers of Islam understood “women and men are not equals”.

“Everything has a structure and for a Muslim, the man is seen as the leader of the family or household.

“If a woman is told to wear a burqa or hijab so she does not tempt other men, then she should obey.

Oh my God. thank goodness he is not a NZ citizen is all I can say.

“The issue is not whether it is a cultural law or religious law, it is the husband’s law.”

My advice to Kiwi men is to not try that line to settle marital arguments.

The club’s founders, Malaysian-based business group Global Ikhwan, support polygamy, and claim their moral attitude is in line with Islamic teachings for building strong families.

The club encourages women to submit to their husbands and meet all their sexual needs because it believes sexually fulfilled men are less likely to stray so marriages are less likely to break down.

Unbelievable.

The Federation of Islamic Associations of New Zealand said it did not support the movement and that the club’s views were “interpretation of Islam to the extreme”.

They are, and that is why it is good more moderate views will challenge those extreme views.

Tags: ,

178 Responses to “Muslim women say burqa is affront to human dignity”

  1. smttc (638 comments) says:

    It will not make an ounce of difference. Extremist Islam will eventually make its way to our shores as it has everywhere else and shout down any moderates within the religion. Then they will call for Sharia and come for the infidels.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    smttc

    Nice to see the paranoia levels are still high.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. davidp (3,319 comments) says:

    This is an issue that a few brave women have been tackling in Afghanistan recently:

    http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/07/14/7084536-afghan-women-rally-turning-men-red-faced-with-anger

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. garethw (205 comments) says:

    “However Malaysian businessman Zulkifli Hamzah, who is in Auckland to help set up a Muslim “Obedient Wives Club” branch, said followers of Islam understood “women and men are not equals”.”

    Thanks, I wondered what new advertising role John Ansell had picked up…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @mikenmild
    Will never happen here.
    Move on, nothing to see here…
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/sharia-law-at-work-in-australia/story-fn59niix-1226097889992
    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/man-accused-of-sharia-law-assault-called-bin-laden-soldier-of-god-20110720-1hp0n.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. toad (3,654 comments) says:

    Is there any way we can put this misogynist asshole Zulkifli Hamzah on the next plane back to Malaysia? As if we don’t have enough problems already with our own homegrown misogynists like John Ansell, Alasdair Thompson and Garth George.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    Whether to wear a burqa or not is not my call, except I’ll say good on the women’s group for speaking up about their views.

    But it raises an interesting issue about types of face coverings, and what they hide. Check this out.

    What a burqa hides?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. ephemera (563 comments) says:

    @garethw

    John Ansell likes his women to be she-men or something.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. stephen (4,063 comments) says:

    like John Ansell, Alasdair Thompson and Garth George.

    You actually think these guys hate women?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    And what about the rickets these women’s children develop?? It is not healthy to totally cover ones skin; more science old Mo wasn’t up with.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. davidp (3,319 comments) says:

    Toad>Is there any way we can put this misogynist asshole Zulkifli Hamzah on the next plane back to Malaysia? As if we don’t have enough problems already with our own homegrown misogynists like John Ansell, Alasdair Thompson and Garth George.

    Toad… You belong to a party that has two co-leaders. One is selected on merit and the other on the basis that they have different genitals to the co-leader selected on merit. That is shockingly sexist. While the employers sacked Thompson, your Greens have done nothing to confront or deal with your own homegrown misogyny.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. Steve Wrathall (207 comments) says:

    “If a woman is told to wear a burqa or hijab so she does not tempt other men, then …”

    …Zulkifli Hamzah should wear one too, in order to prevent those uncontrollably lusty muslim women from losing control when they see his comb-over flapping in the wind.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. nasska (9,501 comments) says:

    Hark, the deafening silence from our normally rabid feminists. Where are you Sue Bradford, Sandra Coney, Sue Kedgley, et al? The outcome of all the sweat & tears you exerted to free women from oppression is at risk.

    Remember the halcyon days of protest? Glass ceilings on Monday, abortion rights on Tuesday, bra burning on Wednesday….all for nothing because you are too scared to come too terms with the fact that there is a Middle Eastern culture where men reign supreme & women are treated like sacks of shit. Too scared because you might tread on the toes of some bat shit mad religion that worships a prophet who liked to do sick things to little girls.

    Remember all the solidarity with your sisters you harangued everyone about in the 60′s & 70′s? Well there are a group of women in NZ who are only allowed out of doors if they dress to look like letterboxes. Women who have to cover their faces & ankles because pitiful Muslim males might get a hard on at the sight of an exposed nostril. Little girls who undergo clitoral removal to ensure that they don’t get to enjoy sex.

    Come on you aged hags…we are not describing something that ‘might’ happen. It is happening & it’s in NZ in a suburb not far from you.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. david@tokyo (262 comments) says:

    Their religion and culture, their decisions IMO.

    That said, I’ve seen burqa clad women in Doha, Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Istanbul, and for all the talk about the Burqa, I got the impression that women who want to show off can make a damn good fist of it even when clad from head to ankle in black.

    Showing off loads of skin works in some cultures, but it’s not a requirement.

    The polygamy is a different story though. In Bosnia the other day my Muslim tour guide told me that she was glad that has been banned in her country at least.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @nasska
    Where are you Sue Bradford, Sandra Coney, Sue Kedgley, et al….

    ***crickets chirping*****

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. s.russell (1,486 comments) says:

    I applaud Muslim women embracing a more enlightened set of values. But one of those enlightened values is protecting individual freedoms, such as the freedom to wear a burqa.
    I believe its use will fade away in time. It will fade fastest if others demonstrate enlightened values, rather than intolerance. Idiotic moves, such as attempting to ban burqas, would provoke a cultural seige mentality and cause Muslims to cling to unenlightened values even harder.
    Wisest course: ignore them and they will go away.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. bearhunter (859 comments) says:

    “However Malaysian businessman Zulkifli Hamzah, who is in Auckland to help set up a Muslim “Obedient Wives Club” branch, said followers of Islam understood “women and men are not equals”.

    “Everything has a structure and for a Muslim, the man is seen as the leader of the family or household.”

    In all fairness, though, there are a fair few Christians here in NZ who would see no problem with that attitude.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @david@tokyo
    Honour killings, beheadings, clitorectomies, child marriage, stoning…
    Their religion and culture, their decisions IMO.

    “New Zealand Labour MP Ashraf Choudhary refused in a television interview on TV3′s 60 Minutes on July 4 to condemn the stoning to death of homosexuals and people who had extra-marital affairs. He was asked, in a program examining radical Islam in New Zealand, “Are you saying the Koran is wrong to recommend that gays in certain circumstances be stoned to death?” He replied: “No, no. Certainly what the Koran says is correct.” Then he partially qualified this statement. “In those societies, not here in NewZealand.”
    …….yet.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @s.russell
    “Wisest course: ignore them and they will go away.”

    And then you are supposed to give an example where that has happened……

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. smttc (638 comments) says:

    Yes, what is the precedent for “Ignore them and they will go away”? As far as I can see, ignoring them has the opposite effect. They come in droves.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. Paulus (2,295 comments) says:

    I think the Headscarf worn surrounding the face is very attractive. I have seen this among women throughout Malaysia and I like it.

    Maybe one day Muslim women will say enough to full facial cover, but in this century ?. The male reasoning gives something of which to be ” very afraid”. Like so called multi marriage according to the Koran – show me where ? The original language has been hijacked by extremists. Sad, because it has many aspects of which to be proud.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. nasska (9,501 comments) says:

    Okay so the feminists are getting old & flabby & can’t handle the modern day oppression of women. Perhaps the man haters down at the local Women’s Refuge might like to help….

    Let us examine the Quran, Sura 4:34 and see how the religion of peace shapes up:

    “Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme.”

    It’s culture & religion…nothing to see here, move on?????

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @Paulus
    “Like so called multi marriage according to the Koran – show me where ? The original language has been hijacked by extremists.”
    Nope, the so called extremists know what the Koran, Hadiths and Siras say.
    Read the hadiths.
    The Hadith are anecdotes about Muhammad and other founders of Islam. They are considered important source material about religious practice, law, and historical traditions.
    The Koran 68:4 upholds Muhammed as “…an exalted standard of character.” Islamic tradition upholds Muhammed as ‘al-insan al-kamil’ or ‘the perfect man’, to be emulated by all Muslims.
    Now have a look at mohammed…..
    Muhammad was married to thirteen women, including eleven at one time. He relegated them to either consecutive days or (according to some accounts) all in one night. He married a 9-year-old girl and even his adopted son’s wife.
    And that Paulus is the original language.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Why is this Malaysian wally allowed here to set up his owclub? Polygamy is against the law in NZ so why are these people allowed to promote it here? They already have babies with children in NZ and that is allowed. They have no respect for our laws and are treating this country like a joke.
    NZers should be able to get residency and citizenship in Malaysia but they can’t because the rulers of Malaysia want everything on their terms; just like most muslim males. I hesitate to call them men because they are not men in the accepted sense of the word.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. ben (2,386 comments) says:

    David, whatever happened to the concept of: I violently disagree with that man but will defend his right to say what he believes. You expressly say you are pleased he is not a citizen.

    I do disagree with him. Completely. But he is not wrong to express his views. This is what defines tolerance. Now he happens to be expressing a view that is rather intolerant. That is not a reason to shut him down, or reject his right to be a citizen (implied by you, though not stated), or say he is wrong for saying it. He is simply airing a view you don’t like. Yet the implied view is he is wrong for doing so.

    A more mature take would be to acknowledge his right to say things, but that you disagree with them.

    You are simply falling into the hole created by the Left, which is not confine yourself to disagreement, but to go the next step and say he is wrong for even saying these things. If he had a job here you’d be calling for his sacking. I’m sorry, but if your opinion is that the only views to be correctly expressed in public are those you don’t strongly disagree with, then you are as intolerant as any other fundamentalist.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. Graeme Edgeler (3,216 comments) says:

    DPF:

    Muslim women say burqa is affront to human dignity

    vs:

    it is “an affront to human dignity” for women to be forced to wear it.

    Important distinction, I think.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. questlove (241 comments) says:

    I applaud Muslim women embracing a more enlightened set of values. But one of those enlightened values is protecting individual freedoms, such as the freedom to wear a burqa.
    I believe its use will fade away in time. It will fade fastest if others demonstrate enlightened values, rather than intolerance. Idiotic moves, such as attempting to ban burqas, would provoke a cultural seige mentality and cause Muslims to cling to unenlightened values even harder.
    Wisest course: ignore them and they will go away.

    Well put.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. nasska (9,501 comments) says:

    questlove

    Could you give an instance anywhere in the world where Muslims have adapted to their host culture?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. Elaycee (4,066 comments) says:

    “Wisest course: ignore them and they will go away.” Clearly written by an idealist and a dreamer.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    Could you give an instance anywhere in the world where Muslims have adapted to their host culture?

    The Muslims I see wandering around here (most days) seem to have adapted ok.

    And plenty of locals seem to have adapted to food served by Muslims in restaurants here too.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    @nasska – prepare for a fluffy interpretation of the term ‘adapted’. Perhaps asking where they’re ‘deferred to’, or honoured or upheld their host culture?

    Edit: QED!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. questlove (241 comments) says:

    Could you give an instance anywhere in the world where Muslims have adapted to their host culture?

    You do realise that most Muslims aren’t the fundamentalists loony’s you see on Fox ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. nasska (9,501 comments) says:

    krazykiwi

    I was a bit lax. I should have defined ‘adapted’ better or used ‘integrated’….that would have really stonewalled any responses.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. nasska (9,501 comments) says:

    questlove

    How would any of us know? Maybe not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslim.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. david@tokyo (262 comments) says:

    nasska,

    It seems to me that there already is a great deal of difference between Muslim cultures in various parts of the world. You may just have to give it more time than you personally would like to.

    Culture is bigger than any one person’s individual lifespan; without good reasons for immediate change, immediate change won’t come about.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    nasska – yes, you should have been more specific about what sort of host culture they should have adapted to.

    I think I’ve adapted pretty well to modern culture here, it’s very different to the culture I grew up with, and quite different again to the culture I moved to when I started working in the 70s.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    muslim immigrants are integrating so well into New Zealand society.
    The problems they cause in ALL other western societies they have emmigrated to with non integration, ghettos, demands
    for sharia law etc. will not happen here because, as mikenmild says, ‘we will be nicer to them here in New Zealand.’
    Or better still, as s.russell suggests, ‘lets ignore them and they will go away.’
    Or, ‘they aren’t like the loony’s you see on Fox.’
    muslims will make great Kiwis in the future.
    Lets ramp up muslim immigration, we need many more of them in N.Z.
    Our grandchildren will thank us one day.
    They are no different than any other immigrants .

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    david@tokyo / Pete George, read Other_Andy at 1:13. How well do you think Ashraf Choudhary as adapted to NZ host culture?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. starboard (2,447 comments) says:

    too right bereal…and they do a cracking shish kebab , not to mention the baklava , hummus etc..oohh yeah bring ‘em in I love musso food..

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Bye the way,
    be carefull saying anything negative about muslims and their proclivities because that might
    make them angry, then we really will have problems.
    Better just to keep quiet.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. questlove (241 comments) says:

    Maybe not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslim.

    That’s just a lazy stereotype. According to the National Counterterrorism Center, non-Muslims account for 16,868 recorded incidents of terrorism, 967 less than Islamic extremists.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. david@tokyo (262 comments) says:

    krazykiwi, “Honour killings, beheadings, clitorectomies, child marriage, stoning” are all a tad different issue from the burqa IMO.

    Like I said, I’ve seen women in the middle east make their burqas look fantastic. I’d not be surprised at all if they don’t have burqa fashion mags over there.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. nasska (9,501 comments) says:

    david@tokyo

    …”without good reasons for immediate change, immediate change won’t come about.”…

    You’re on to it. How about: no change, no residency. That should sort the problem.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    You’re avoiding the question nasska – what is “host culture”?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    david@tokyo has seen women in the middle east make their burkas look fantastic.
    You cant argue with a slam dunk like that.
    The gravitas and compelling logic in that statement is overwhelming.
    also, as krazykiwi points out, Ashraf Choudary is a shining beacon example of a
    muslim integrating in NZ. A true trailblazer and statesman.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Pete George. No mate, you are avoiding the question, “how well do you think Ashrad
    Choudary has integrated into NZ culture/society?’

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. Scott Chris (5,675 comments) says:

    @nasska (1,081) Says:
    July 21st, 2011 at 2:47 pm
    krazykiwi

    “I was a bit lax. I should have defined ‘adapted’ better or used ‘integrated’….that would have really stonewalled any responses.”

    Are you referring to the ones with ‘Muslim’ stamped on their foreheads, or the sneaky ones who pretend to be like Paul Henry’s quintessential Kiwi?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    @questlove – So it would have been more accurate to say that muslim terrorists account for more than all other terrorist groups combined. Thanks for clarifying that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    “how well do you think Ashrad Choudary has integrated into NZ culture/society?’

    I’ve got no idea how well they’ve integrated into the culture/society they’re a part of here, whatever it is I’m sure it’s different to mine. As are many others.

    I don’t agree with the Andy quote if that’s what you mean.

    I think if they were honest people who say “they should be like us” are really just saying “I don’t like them and don’t want them here”. I’m sure quite a few people would apply that same sentiment to them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. nasska (9,501 comments) says:

    PG

    …”You’re avoiding the question nasska – what is “host culture”?”…..

    Not so much avoiding it PG… more trying to understand where you’re coming from.

    To me the term host culture means simply the culture, norms & values of the immigrants’ new country.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    You don’t understand that the “culture, norms & values” vary enormously around the country? And also within individual regions and cities? Even within families – one of my brothers in particular is very different to me. New Zealand is culturally a very diverse place.

    And as I said, “culture, norms & values” have changed substantially for me in my lifetime.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    PG – is the stoning gays more, or less acceptable in NZ today vs when you were a lad? You see the corollary of your progression of values is that, if by dint of weight of support, this practice becomes accepted it is therefore ok. It’s not ok of course, and the right time to make sure it doesn’t become that way is to stop the rot now. That doesn’t mean demonizing muslims, or throwing them out or whatever. But putting our heads in the sand and saying that’ll never happen here just sounds like 1990′s Britons saying their country would never endorse Sharia Law

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. nasska (9,501 comments) says:

    PG

    …”New Zealand is culturally a very diverse place. “…

    Agreed. My point is that most cultures who make up our melting pot of a country start from a position where they want to integrate & become one of us. The followers of Islam have no intention of assimilating & this has been demonstrated in the UK, Germany, Spain, Denmark etc. What on earth makes you think NZ will be any different?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. questlove (241 comments) says:

    @ Krazykiwi

    Mainstream Islam doesn’t call for its followers to be belligerent and cause harm to other people. In fact is specifically teaches not to harm others. So where there’s a small percentage of crazy people doing crazy shit in the name of Islam (but actually not following the rules of Islam) then they’re merely crazy people doing crazy shit; regardless of to whom/what they credit to.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    nasska – it’s proven to be different here so far, but hey, we should be vigiliant, the klu klux klan might try and get established, the Tea Party already has a presense, you neevr know what bad clutural influences will envelope us.

    kk – I don’t think there’s any threat of Muslims stoning gays, gays are probably threatened more by people on Kiwiblog.

    We have far bigger issues, for example criminal gangs trying to establish themselves here, our drug culture is far more damaging than various ethnic cultures.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. nasska (9,501 comments) says:

    Not a lot of action from the feminists & the man haters. These self same apologists for the religion of peace will be the first to be oppressed if the Muslim ideal of Sharia Law comes to NZ. Before you rush to condemn this as an impossibility it is being introduced by stealth in the UK.

    Perhaps a few quotes from the Quran could remove the scales from their eyes & the wax from their ears.

    1. Mature men are allowed to marry prepubescent girls [Sura 65:1, 4 ]
    2. Husbands may hit their wives [Sura 4:34]
    3. A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives [Sura 4:129]
    4. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives [Sura 4:3]
    5. Slave-girls are sexual property for their male owners [Sura 4:24]
    6. A wife may remarry her ex—husband if and only if she marries another man and then this second man divorces her [Sura 2:230]
    7. A woman’s testimony counts half of a man’s testimony [Sura 2:282]
    8. A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female [Sura 4:11]
    9. Husbands are a degree above their wives [Sura 2:228]
    10. A husband has sex with his wife, as a plough goes into a field [Sura 2:223]

    Of course we haven’t touched on the penalties (such as death by stoning) for offences against the merciful tenets of the prophet.

    Sort of puts who gets up to feed the baby into perspective.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. Mick Mac (1,091 comments) says:

    questlove (192) Says:
    July 21st, 2011 at 4:28 pm

    you are talking out of your arse.

    Have you read the koran cover to cover (online or not?)
    the sira?
    any one of the 5 mainstream hadiths?

    No thought not.
    http://www.politicalislam.com

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    @questlove – I think you’ll find Islam specifically teaches not to do harm to other muslims. The rest of us are infidels. Look it up. To your point about not everyone doing crazy shit, I completely agree. I’ve done business in Malaysia, Indonesia, Turkey and UAE and have a number of muslim friends. I’m just happy they don’t adhere to the prophets teachings.

    @pg – but an NZ MP said it was ok. Did the muslim community shout him down? Nope. Looks like our values are ‘progressing’ nicely eh?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  59. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    kk – how do you know what’s been said to him by “the muslim community”? They might have personally given him a bollocking without seeing a need to do it via MSM. Or have you checked if there’s any Muslim blogs or Facebook pages? Or newsletters? You may not be on their mailing list.

    When some nut that’s linked to your wider cultural group has said something stupid do you always shout about it?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  60. nasska (9,501 comments) says:

    questlove

    Islam “is” a religion of peace… but it’s the Peace of “Islam”.

    Two quotes from the Quran:

    “He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may make it conqueror of all religion however much idolaters may be averse.”(Qur’an 61:9) [25

    "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."(Qur'an 9:5)[21]

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  61. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    i do stand to be corrected but isn’t it true that the Prostitution Reform Act (legalising street soliciting and neighbourhood
    brothels) passed into law in part because our only muslim MP Asraf Choudary (list MP) abstained from voting due
    to ‘religious and cultural reasons’
    Its early days yet in NZ but wait till 2nd and 3rd generation muslims decide to get ‘fundamental’ thats where
    the real problems will begin.
    Then we better get really nice to them or they may get angry. Right mike ?
    Then appeasement will be the only answer. Right mike ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  62. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    @pg – I have no interest in what’s said to him privately. I’m interested in the lack of public condemnation from the muslim community who are contributors to the shifting “culture, norms & values” of NZ… while other NZers (apparently, including you) think there’s nothing to be concerned about.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  63. Longknives (4,044 comments) says:

    Toad- “Is there any way we can put this misogynist asshole Zulkifli Hamzah on the next plane back to Malaysia?”

    You ignorant racist.

    (Just to remind you that you squealed and howled and called me a ‘KKK member’ last week when I queried the motives of Maori radicals….)

    Game/Set/Match Longknives.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  64. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Its early days yet in NZ but wait till 2nd and 3rd generation muslims decide to get ‘fundamental’ thats where
    the real problems will begin.

    Then we better get really nice to them or they may get angry. Right mike ?

    Not sure what your point is here. Are you suggesting that non-criminal unthreatening first-generation immigrants should be denied entry to New Zealand because their children and grandchildren represent some kind of predictable threat decades in the future?

    Or now that they’re here, they shouldn’t be allowed to have children? Or their children should be treated in some kind of special way to prevent this slippery slope to extremism they’re naturally on?

    Seriously, I have no idea what your point could be.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  65. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    questlove (192) Says:

    “According to the National Counterterrorism Center, non-Muslims account for 16,868 recorded incidents of terrorism, 967 less than Islamic extremists.”

    Can you give me a link to that info please?

    “Mainstream Islam doesn’t call for its followers to be belligerent and cause harm to other people. In fact is specifically teaches not to harm others.”

    There is NO mainstream Islam.
    Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Prime Minister of the Republic of Turkey said, ‘These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that’s it.”
    Source: Milliyet, Turkey, August 21, 2007

    Islam does in fact call for its followers to cause harm to non-muslims. There are more than a 100 verses in the koran that call explicitly for violence (I can paste them here if you want) against non believers (non-muslims). I can also give you quotes of several ‘spiritual’ leaders that will back me up. The reason why most muslims are not violent is that most muslims are either illiterate or have learned to recite the koran in arabic by rote. Most muslims do not speak arabic and rely on the imam to explain what it means to be a muslim. So while islam is a violent, intollerant and mysogonist religion, you will find that most muslims are in fact nice people. This depends mostly on what they will hear in the mosque. Next time you watch the news, check it out. You will notice that almost all the violence in the Middle East happens on Friday after prayers (No turning the other cheek in islam!).
    Most muslims have no idea what is in the koran and belief anything the imam tells them. I have had several discussions with muslims and when I told them that mohammed (their perfect example) was, according to the koran, a thief, murderer, rapist, liar and tortured people they were (naturally) quite offended.
    When showing them the passages in the koran they were shocked.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  66. starboard (2,447 comments) says:

    “We have far bigger issues, for example criminal gangs trying to establish themselves here”

    Wake up PG , we’ve had ‘em here for ages..mongrel mob, black power scum ..where ya been ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  67. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    Yes starboard, existing gangs too, far more of a problem than some perceived future threat there is no sign of here because someone quotes some ancient texts.

    Maybe Christian sleepers are ready to launch a new crusade any time.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  68. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Not at all suprising that you miss the point Ryan Sproul.
    Just read the quote you pasted again, and concentrate.
    Typical pathetic trick to try and attribute your twisted interpretation of what i said then question your
    own twisted interpretation.
    Those who are unable to learn the lessons of history etc. etc.
    Its 2nd and 3rd generation muslims turning ‘ fundamental’ that are at the root of muslim problems
    the world over.
    Why is New Zealand going to be different ?
    Because we will be nicer to them than anywhere else ?
    i ask again. Why will New Zealand be any different ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  69. questlove (241 comments) says:

    I think you’ll find Islam specifically teaches not to do harm to other muslims. The rest of us are infidels. Look it up.

    Oh rubbish. All religions have enough contradictions or flat out encouragement of crazy shit that I am sure there is a theological argument to support almost any behaviour if interpreted & applied in a way not intended.

    The truth is that the crazy Muslims don’t represent, and aren’t condoned by legitimate Islam authorities

    Certainly, neither bin Laden nor his principal associate, Ayman al-Zawahiri, are graduates of Islamic universities. And so their proclamations ignore 14 centuries of Muslim scholarship, and instead take the form of lists of anti-American grievances and of Koranic quotations referring to early Muslim wars against Arab idolaters. These are followed by the conclusion that all Americans, civilian and military, are to be wiped off the face of the Earth. All this amounts to an odd and extreme violation of the normal methods of Islamic scholarship. Had the authors of such fatwās followed the norms of their religion, they would have had to acknowledge that no school of mainstream Islam allows the targeting of civilians. An insurrectionist who kills non-combatants is guilty of baghy, “armed aggression,” a capital offense in Islamic law.

    http://www.islamfortoday.com/murad04.htm

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  70. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    bereal

    Well, what are you saying then? Muslims should be refused admittance to NZ because some of their grandchildren may cause problems?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  71. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    mikenmild. Yes.
    As they are a problem in any western country they have immigrated to, why do you think
    it will be a different case here in NZ ?
    I know you dont do answers mike, or at least your best shot is to answer a question with a question,
    but have a go at this one.
    why will New Zealand be different ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  72. starboard (2,447 comments) says:

    There should be a blanket ban on all Muslim into NZ..honestly, we just dont need the potential hassel. Cue screaming liberals..I dont care…make NZ muslim free. Dont say I didnt warn ya.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  73. smttc (638 comments) says:

    Yes milk milo, I would like to see you answer bereal’s question with something other than rhetoric. Or should we assume that you have climbed back under your rock?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  74. Scott Chris (5,675 comments) says:

    “Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,” says the LORD. “Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction”. (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

    Bible’s full of it too Nasska.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  75. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    We should definitely allow Muslims into New Zealand, on the same basis that we allow anyone else. There is no threat from those already here and no reason to suppose that future immigrants will not settle here peacefully in the same way that dozens of other groups have. This anti-Muslim hysteria is just a re-run of the ‘yellow peril’ of a century ago.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  76. Andrei (2,429 comments) says:

    Who remembers this response given to an inane Journo by a non PC cowed world leader to an inane Journo about these matters.

    An oldie but a goodie – the BBC had conniptions

    pure gold

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  77. smttc (638 comments) says:

    Scott Chris, if you are having a crack at Christians (I am not religious btw) then you have the wrong Testament. If you are having a go at Jews, well you just sound silly.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  78. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    Here are a few of the verses that questlove implores us to ignore:

    “Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax.” Koran 9:29

    “Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them.” Koran 2:191

    “Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood.” Koran 9:123

    “When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them.” Koran 9:5

    “Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable.” Koran 3:85

    “The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them.” Koran 9:30

    “Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam” Koran 5:33

    “The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque.” Koran 9:28

    “Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.” Koran 22:19

    “Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them.” Koran 47:4

    “The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them.” Koran 8:65

    “Muslims must not take the infidels as friends.” Koran 3:28 

    “Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.” Koran 8:12

    “Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels.” Koran 8:60

    Like I said, I have muslim friends and I’m glad they choose to ignore these very unambiguous instructions. Is anyone prepared to wager that none of this stuff is being taught by NZ imams?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  79. Scott Chris (5,675 comments) says:

    More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

    As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  80. smttc (638 comments) says:

    Milk Milo, precedents set in other western democracies give us every reason to suppose that what has and is happening in other countries will eventually happen in NZ. If I were you, I would get back under your rock asap.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  81. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    smttc seems to think Christianity has nothing to do with the Old Testament!

    And, do you really think that other countries have been somehow overwhelmed by Islam recently?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  82. Scott Chris (5,675 comments) says:

    smttc (125) Says:
    July 21st, 2011 at 5:52 pm

    No, I’m saying that Christianity/Judaism can be demonized as easily as Islam if you take it out of context.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  83. starboard (2,447 comments) says:

    I dont recall ” the yellow peril ” hopping aboard passenger aircraft and flying them into buildings…I dont recall ” the yellow peril ” recruiting suicide bombers..mike , in the eyes of muslim you will be one of the “useful idiots”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  84. smttc (638 comments) says:

    @milk milo 5.57pm

    It doesn’t you clown. It simply acts as a portent for what was to come (assuming you believe in JC and all that jazz).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  85. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Oh dear mikenmild,
    Here i go ruining your day. Thanks for the irrelevant effort @5.50
    But i bring you back to the question at hand,
    Why will New Zealand be any different ?

    Don’t let yourself down.
    Anyway its not too bad that you are unable to address that, your mate Ryan Sproul
    has no answer either.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  86. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    bereal

    I’m not aware of anything that we couldn’t cope with here. As I said to smttc, it’s not as if Islamists are over-rrunning other countries. If anything, like Christianity, it’s a religion on the wane. The most likely outcome from more Muslims moving here is that theu will become secularised faster.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  87. nasska (9,501 comments) says:

    questlove

    …”am sure there is a theological argument to support almost any behaviour if interpreted & applied in a way not intended.”…

    And here lies the fallacy in your argument. You are looking at a 1400 year old collection of horse shit using perceptions instilled through a similar but different 2000 year old collection of horse shit. To most Christians the Bible is a bit like a Software Licence. Nobody actually reads it, they just scroll to the bottom and click “I Agree.” In Islam every word is from the prophet & since the prophet said it it must be true. There is no dissension, no room for personal opinion. If the Imam says its in the book you obey or suffer the consequences.

    This gives great power to religious leaders. These leaders don’t want to lose this power & so they are not going to encourage integration into general NZ society. Thus a divide is created & maintained between Muslims & the infidel.

    Not a great prescription if we wish a united New Zealand.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  88. smttc (638 comments) says:

    Milk milo, you need a bigger rock. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the World. It is not the least bit in decline.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  89. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    smttc

    With less than 1% of our population identifying as Muslims, I doubt we have much to fear. We’d need to admit another 20-30,000 to get to similar levels as Australia, where there’s not much sign of a problem. New Zealand is actually quite good at accepting the many people who want to come here and there is simply no evidence that immigrant groups cause significant problems here.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  90. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    @nasska – Oh I read it. Mainly the New Testament. And Psalms. I’ve yet to have anyone explain to me how society would be a worse place if more of us emulated the life and values of Christ.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  91. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    hey mike 6.02
    i gotta say, you are hard work mate, but amusing.
    i dont want to call your attention span into question.
    i dont know if your 6.02 effort was in response to some other matter, but you may remember,
    My question to you was,
    Why will New Zealand be any different.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  92. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    bereal

    Yes, what couldn’t we cope with here? Has there been some catastrophe elsewhere?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  93. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    milky – don’t get out much do you?! This from just yesterday: Sharia law at work in Australia. Or from two days earlier the story about the Aussie chap who got a bit of Sharia justice for having a drink.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  94. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    That’s not to say we might not get the odd problem, like this bloke:
    ‘The AMMA, the most influential Maori Muslim movement, view tino rangatiratanga as a form of jihad, and Islam the perfect vehicle for Maori nationalism. The leader of the AMMA, Sheikh Eshaq Te Amorangi Morgan Kireka-Whaanga was recently identified among the top 500 most influential Muslims.’

    Though he’s not an immigrant, of course.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  95. nasska (9,501 comments) says:

    krazykiwi

    I’ll admit that there’s a few good Xians but not enough to make the quote from Mohandas Gandhi bad advice:

    “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  96. questlove (241 comments) says:

    Here are a few of the verses that questlove implores us to ignore:

    Are you kidding? You think a cut & paste job from some ‘Islam is the devil’ website has any sort of authority in its translation?

    Here’s Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s translation which is one of the most widely-known and used translation of the Qur’an.

    http://www.harunyahya.com/Quran_translation/Quran_translation_index.php

    “Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax.” Koran 9:29

    vs

    “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”.

    Not even close to your hysteria sorry.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  97. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    Well, kk, if you think polygamy’s a problem, talk to some fundamentalist Mormons. Can’t imagine why anyone would want more than one wife at a time, but it doesn’t worry me if that’s some other guy’s bed of nails.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  98. Scott Chris (5,675 comments) says:

    nasska (1,087) Says:
    July 21st, 2011 at 6:04 pm

    “To most Christians the Bible is a bit like a Software Licence. Nobody actually reads it, they just scroll to the bottom and click “I Agree.” In Islam every word is from the prophet & since the prophet said it it must be true. There is no dissension, no room for personal opinion. If the Imam says its in the book you obey or suffer the consequences.”

    So now you’re claiming to speak for ‘most Christians’ and profess to know what an Imam’s word is to a Muslim. Nasska, speak for yourself.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  99. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    OK, for some who want to hear what the koran says about violence from people with authority (Not me, Nasska or Bereal).

    What about the Ruhollah Khomeini?
    He is an Imam, an ascetic spiritual leader whose teachings are unquestioned by millions of muslims and he is considered a champion of Islamic revival by Shia scholars.
    Yusuf al-Qaradawi OK? He is the winner of eight international prizes for his scholarly contributions and is considered one of the most influential Islamic scholars living today
    What about Syed Abul A’ala Maududi? He is a Sunni Pakistani journalist, theologian, Muslim revivalist leader and political philosopher, and a major 20th century Islamist thinker.
    Bassam Tibi alright? He is a political scientist and Professor of International Relations.

    This is what they have to say about Islam and violence.

    Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.
    Those who know nothing about Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those people are witless. Islam says: ‘Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all!’ Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by the infidel? Islam says: ‘Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter them.’ Islam says:
    ‘Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword.’ The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.

    Yusuf al-Qaradawi.
    The Muslims conquered Constantinople, where Eastern Christianity is situated, and in the future, a mighty king will arise for the Muslims; through him, Islam will spread and Rome will be conquered. We will control the land of the Vatican; we will control Rome and introduce Islam in it. Yes, the Christians, who carve crosses on the breasts of the Muslims in Kosovo – and before then in Bosnia, and before then in many places in the world – will yet pay us the Jiziya, in humiliation, or they will convert to Islam…”

    Syed Abul A’ala Maududi.
    It must now be obvious that the objective of the Islamic jihad is to eliminate the rule of an un-Islamic system, and establish in its place an Islamic system of state rule. Islam does not intend to confine his rule to a single state or a hand full of countries. The aim of Islam is to bring about a universal revolution. Although in the initial stages, it is incumbent upon members of the party of Islam to carry out a revolution in the state system of the countries to which they belong; their ultimate objective is none other than world revolution. Human relations are so integrated that no state can have complete freedom of action under its principles unless the same principles are not in force in a neighbouring country. Therefore, a, ‘Muslim Party’ will not be content with the establishment of Islam in just one area alone –both for its own safety and for general reform. It should try and expand in all directions. On one hand it will spread its ideology; on the other it will invite people of all nations to accept its creed, for salvation lies only therein. If this Islamic state has power and resources it will fight and destroy non-Islamic governments and establish Islamic states in their place.

    Muslim scholar Bassam Tibi.
    At its core, Islam is a religious mission to all humanity. Muslims are religiously obliged to disseminate the Islamic faith throughout the world. ”We have sent you forth to all mankind” (Q. 34:28). If non-Muslims submit to conversion or subjugation, this call (dawa) can be pursued peacefully. If they do not, Muslims are obliged to wage war against them. In Islam, peace requires that non-Muslims submit to the call of Islam, either by converting or by accepting the status of a religious minority (dhimmi) and paying the imposed poll tax, jizya. World peace, the final stage of the dawa, is reached only with the conversion or submission of all mankind to Islam. Muslims believe that expansion through war is not aggression but a fulfillment of the Quranic command to spread Islam as a way to peace. The resort to force to disseminate Islam is not war (harb), a word that is used only to describe the use of force by non-Muslims. Islamic wars are not hurub (the plural of harb) but rather futuhat, acts of “opening” the world to Islam and expressing Islamic jihad. Relations between dar al-Islam, the home of peace, and dar al-harb, the world of unbelievers, nevertheless take place in a state of war, according to the Quran and to the authoritative commentaries of Islamic jurists. Unbelievers who stand in the way, creating obstacles for the dawa, are blamed for this state of war, for the dawa can be pursued peacefully if others submit to it. In other words, those who resist Islam cause wars and are responsible for them. Only when Muslim power is weak is temporary truce (hudna) allowed (Islamic jurists differ on the definition of temporary).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  100. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    Gee thanks Andy.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  101. nasska (9,501 comments) says:

    Other_Andy

    Thanks. Great find.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  102. Scott Chris (5,675 comments) says:

    @Other_Andy (157) Says:
    July 21st, 2011 at 6:41 pm

    Propaganda. Got any moderate Imams in your collection Andy, or don’t they fit the template?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  103. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @Scott Chris

    Of course it is all propaganda Scott.
    Of course you are right and they are wrong.
    I mean, you are the internationally acclaimed and authorative islamic scholar Scott Chris.

    What you don’t grasp is that the theological blueprints of major religions other than Islam in no way condone violence or perversion. Islam’s theological blueprint most definitely does condone these two things and it can be traced to Mohammed, a brutal, perverted, self-serving, self-aggrandizing (albeit clever) human being, quite the contrast to other relgious and ethical founders like Jesus, Buddha, Confucius, Zoroaster and Lao-tzu. Certain followers of any religion will be wicked or deeply confused, but this doesn’t taint the religion per se EXCEPT in the case of Islam which is itself malevolent and really messed up.
    Think you can finally get this?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  104. questlove (241 comments) says:

    Of course there have been some controversial Islamist figures. This doesn’t make them relevant to the overwhelming majority of Muslims world wide.

    I think this bit of information tells a lot about these types of peoples authority:

    In 2004, 2,500 Muslim academics from Saudi Arabia, Iraq and from the Palestinian territories condemned Qaradawi, and accused him of giving “Islam a bad name.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  105. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    @Other_Andy – Outstanding stuff..!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  106. hj (5,677 comments) says:

    Keith Locke:
    “Racism has no place in the selection of migrants. Unlike Mr Peters, we don’t start with an assumption that ‘Kiwi values’ are somehow superior to those of new migrants.

    “In fact, more effort needs to be put into educating New Zealanders about the cultures and religions brought here by new migrants.
    http://www.greens.org.nz/press-releases/greens-counter-peters-welcoming-immigration-policy
    ……
    On the other hand we shouldn’t assume other peoples religions and values are better. But if you are part of the fifth column you would think anything would be an improvement?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  107. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    questlove

    But Andy has already told you that it stems from the evil pervert Mohammed. Don’t you get it?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  108. hj (5,677 comments) says:

    While you can pick suspect statements out of the bible they are buried in the old testament. The New testament is peppared with “let he who be with out sin cast the first stone”. That didn’t stop the evil excesses of the inquisition etc however. It seems that the doctrine is the spark but societal conditions are the fire.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  109. Fletch (5,719 comments) says:

    This totalitarian puritanism is what emasculates Muslim men and leaves terrorism and suicide one of the few things they feel like they can pursue. Here’s a quote from United In Hate, by Jamie Glazov –

    Because of this failure, the males in this culture experience an agonizing sense of humiliation that leads, in turn, to violent rage. Since most of these men cannot imagine that their powerlessness stems from their culture’s misogyny (along with other dysfunctional ingredients), they rationalize it as the result of the threat of freedom from without and within. The solution for Islamists thus lies in eradicating the threat of freedom from within their own culture, and destroying the examples of success and freedom that surround it (i.e., the West in general and America and Israel in particular).

    As we explore the Islamist urge for destruction, the evidence emerges that generalized feelings of impotence in the face of the infidel’s greater power are exacerbated by specifically sexual feelings of emasculation. Because of the prevailing totalitarian puritanism and the hatred of women and their sexuality, the Muslim Arab male is consumed with feelings of sexual frustration, confusion, and inadequacy. It is crucial to examine the dynamics of this phenomenon, since they are directly related to the spawning of the terror culture.

    To begin with, in a structure in which a woman has no sexual freedom, the husband will never know whether he himself would have been the woman’s real choice. He will also never truly know if he is better as a lover than other men could have been—or could be—to his wife. Moreover, if the wife is circumcised, she is unable to experience a full measure of satisfaction, further increasing the husband’s insecurity. And when he is forced to confront the existence of sexually fulfilled women in the West, his feelings of self-doubt and inadequacy grow even stronger.

    To put it starkly: By not veiling its own women and by giving them personal and sexual freedom, the West infuriates Islamists, leading them ultimately to unleash terror in a furious attempt to keep their own culture free of Western influences.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  110. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    hj

    Good comment. The context is everything.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  111. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    and somewhere in the future in New Zealand the young decendant of a muslim immigrant becomes pious.
    He desires to be more committed to his faith.
    Not like his dad told him, no, really committed, like his iman told him.
    He turns to the koran for guidance.
    He reads ‘the word ‘as given him by the wise imans (thanks Other_Andy)
    Now he starts getting really committed, say like Mohamet Atta was.
    He quite likes the concept of martyr. (is that like dying for the emperor in Bushido ? )
    His friends notice he is changing and getting really serious about his faith.
    He is a good looking bloke, natural kiwi accent. Good job. Taxpayer. Good family.

    Question is. Is he going to work to impose islam, as he is taught ? Or will he deny his faith
    and become a Kiwi ?
    Now we know this will happen. History, recent history proves it.
    These self evident truths are beyond the comprehension of Ryan and mike
    This scenario is going to be repeated and repeated.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  112. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    bereal

    I didn’t know Mohammed Atta was a third-generation immigrant in a western society.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  113. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    @questlove

    Oh, he has his detractors. Mostly because is so popular (competition) and also because he shoots from the hip.
    And did you read the rest on Wikipedia?
    A 2008 Foreign Policy magazine poll placed al-Qaradawi at number three on its list of the top 20 public intellectuals worldwide.
    Al-Qaradawi has been awarded by various countries and institutions for his contributions to Islamic society. Among them are
    King Faisal International Prize for Islamic Studies – 1994
    The Islamic Development Bank (IDB) Prize in Islamic Economics – 1991
    Sultan Al Owais Award for Cultural & Scientific Achievements – 1998–1999
    Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah (Sultan of Brunei) Award for Islamic Jurisprudence – 1997
    Dubai International Holy Quran Award for Islamic Personality of the Year – 2000
    Tokoh Ma’al Hijrah (Hijra of the Prophet) award by the Malaysian Government −2009
    The State Acknowledgement Award for contributions in the field of Islamic Studies from the Government of Qatar – 2008

    The Qatar Faculty of Islamic Studies, part of the Qatar Foundation for Education, Science and Community Development, instituted the “Sheikh Yusuf Al Qaradawi Scholarships” in 2009, awarding them to five students each year for post-graduate studies. It also named after him its newly established research centre, The Qaradawi Center for Islamic Moderation and Renewal.
    He is a trustee of the Oxford University Center for Islamic Studies and has been named as the technical consultant for a multi-million dollar English-language film about Prophet Muhammed produced by Barrie Osborne.

    Oh yes, definitely not an expert.

    Also got problems with the others?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  114. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    Neo-liberals are constantly looking for ways denigrate our society’s Judeo-Christian heritage as part of their desperate attempt to prove a personal rejection of this heritage.

    Islamo-apologetics is a favoured approach as Islam is seen as the most significant threat to Christianity.

    This is why hand-wringing liberals always show en masse for their keyboard-derived dopamine hit whenever there an opportunity to lambast those who criticise any aspect of Islam.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  115. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    Kind of ironic how this thread degenerated, when it started with a report on the work of a moderate Islamic women’s group in NZ.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  116. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    Did it degenerate before or after “I didn’t know Mohammed Atta was a third-generation immigrant in a western society.” ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  117. questlove (241 comments) says:

    Other_Andy you’ve cherry-picked a few alternative Islamist figures (two of which born over 100 years ago) that are alienated from the mainstream Islamist movement and most Islamic academic theologians; and some how you think that this proves that the Qur’an advocates violence and that Islam is “itself malevolent and really messed up.”

    Keep up the baseless fear-mongering.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  118. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    hj (1,394) Says:

    “While you can pick suspect statements out of the bible they are buried in the old testament. The New testament is peppared with “let he who be with out sin cast the first stone”. That didn’t stop the evil excesses of the inquisition etc however. It seems that the doctrine is the spark but societal conditions are the fire.”

    Apart from the fact that the inquisition happened hundreds of years ago and that more people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined, Christians that kill do so IN SPITE OF the teaching of Jesus while muslims that kill do so IN ACCORDANCE to the teachings of mohammed.
    Both bad but do you see the difference?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  119. Other_Andy (2,079 comments) says:

    questlove

    “Other_Andy you’ve cherry-picked a few alternative Islamist figures”

    Yes I have cherry-picked them. I have only picked the most reputable and influential ones.
    Alternative, hardly.
    But like I said, you are probably an expert.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  120. reid (15,530 comments) says:

    Did anyone hear the interview on Morning Report today about the US Muslim who survived after being shot in the face with a shotgun by a mental who wanted to avenge 911? The shooter actually killed another Muslim so he’s been sentenced to death in Texas and was due for execution at 11:00 AM today but get this, the Muslim who survived is appealing against his attacker’s death penalty.

    All those idiots who don’t understand Islam would do well to educate themselves by listening to what he said. I doubt you will. Cognitive dissonance awaits.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  121. Chuck Bird (4,403 comments) says:

    “I have had several discussions with muslims and when I told them that mohammed (their perfect example) was, according to the koran, a thief, murderer, rapist, liar and tortured people they were (naturally) quite offended. ”

    You forgot paedophile.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  122. Nookin (2,887 comments) says:

    Reid
    Whatever he said didn’t work.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  123. reid (15,530 comments) says:

    Not the point Nookin, how many non-Muslims would even take that action? How many Christians have you heard do that? A few? But not many, right?

    Point is, plenty of evidence Islam is a religion of peace, if one cares to look.

    As I say, many don’t. Apparently it creates cognitive dissonance in them. Very sad, if they want the truth, instead of their hysteria.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  124. Chuck Bird (4,403 comments) says:

    “I doubt we have much to fear. We’d need to admit another 20-30,000 to get to similar levels as Australia, where there’s not much sign of a problem.”

    Do you ever read the paper? How you not heard of the recent case of a recent convert being flogged for drinking alcohol?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  125. Nookin (2,887 comments) says:

    The last one that really springs to mind was Jesus. I am sure that there have been others since. Your point is well made, though.People are hugely influenced by unjustified and at times illogical stereotyping.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  126. Martin Gibson (206 comments) says:

    I got clammy hands going through customs in Dubai last week when I remembered I had Richard Dawkins’ book “The God Delusion” in my hand luggage.
    One of the many memorable quotes in his book was from University of Texas professor of physics and astronomy Steven Weinbergat who won the 1979 Nobel Prize in Physics:
    “With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
    During my one night stopover in Dubai, I met briefly with a school friend of mine, who like so many late-30s kiwi women I know, swallowed the baby boomer feminist kool aid and is unhappily unmarried and childless as a consequence of pursuing her career.
    To my surprise she expressed envy of Muslim women, and how they are valued in their roles as mothers and homemakers, whereas Western women have been drawn out of harmony and into competition with men to broaden the tax base, and as I have said earlier, fulfil Karl Marx’s goal of destroying the nuclear family to usher in global socialist utopia.
    Part of the conflict is that Musilims believe Western culture wants to impose that on them, and to be fair, it does.
    Yesterday I walked through Kensington Park then down Oxford St. Perhaps half of the women were wearing headscarves, and a quarter were in the full ninja outfit; far more than there were seven years ago when I was last here.
    As offensive as they are, New Zealanders should worry less about burkas, and more about what children are taught in fundamentalist schools. The UK is proof of that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  127. reid (15,530 comments) says:

    People are hugely influenced by unjustified and at times illogical stereotyping.

    The odd thing is, the very same people influenced by this issue who seem to imagine inside every single Muslim is a potential terrorist just waiting to explode themselves, also see straight through the very same bullshit when say, the left want to blame poverty for crime. So how come some people can see some of the bollocks some of the time but can’t see the other bollocks the other part of the time? WTF is wrong with them? Are they no better than fanatical lefties? Apparently not.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  128. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    If Muslims sre offended by the laws and moral/ cultural values of New Zealand hey, there’s the door…go back to your wonderful Muslim countries, you know, full of people like you.

    I don’t think wearing a burqa was an issue until your people started blowing up and murdering innocent people including Muslims.

    At least we don’t gang rape your journalists at our democracy celebrations…because…who knows why? She didn’t look right? Dressed wrong?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  129. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    And after reid’s sensible contributions comes – Bobbie black.

    Seriously, what would commenters have NZ do? Exclude immigrants on the basis of ethnicity or religion? Forbid some religions in NZ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  130. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    Um yes, that would be a good start.

    Over a million Muslims in the UK isn’t it?

    That seems to be turning out really well for them.

    Hey, when people start mudering innocent men, women and children in the name of the Koran…Europe was very PC and slow to react to Hilter as well.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  131. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    Bobbie

    Interesting you should invoke Europe’s reaction to Hitler when you endorse a Nazi-style solution to NZ’s Muslim problem.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  132. Nookin (2,887 comments) says:

    Like I said, stereotyping is not necessarily logical. There is a degree of indoctrination, a degree of emotion (often fear which can be difficult to assuage)) and a degree of ignorance (combination of bigotry and stupidity). Breaking down negative feeling attributed to some form of preconceived perception is often one of the major hurdles in conflict resolution.
    It happens every day on this blog which is a cesspool of labels, adverse perceptions and stereotypes.
    Fanaticism is not a trait unique to the left, followers of Islam or the barmy army

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  133. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    France and Germany are already saying the utopian global citizen idea just doesn’t work and are limiting their Muslim immigration policies, thank God in New Zealand’s case (being at least ten years behind everone else in most things) there is still time to follow.

    England on the other hand is literally buggered, they lost the concept of their national identity or who is an English person way back in the seventies.

    And why, do we ask have Germany and France led this race, is it because they are modern, developed democratic countries, well, that is part of it but mainly it is beacuse their people, citizens are not fucking sheep.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  134. Nookin (2,887 comments) says:

    Bobbie Black

    Do we also expel anyone wearing hoodies and crash helmets? After all, they are banned in banks because so many bank robbers wear them when committing crimes.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  135. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    Hitler killed innocent people in the name of race or blood or religion or even citizenship, Muslims kill innocent people in the name of religion alone, which is far more scary.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  136. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    Wow, Muslims worse than Hitler. You heard it here first.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  137. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    I would rather take my chances with a Nazi in WW2 than an Islamic murderer any day.

    @Nookin – as far as hoodies and crash helmets go, they don’t hide faces.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  138. Nookin (2,887 comments) says:

    Reid.
    See what I mean?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  139. Scott Chris (5,675 comments) says:

    @Martin Gibson (3) Says:
    July 21st, 2011 at 9:17 pm

    “One of the many memorable quotes in his book was from University of Texas professor of physics and astronomy Steven Weinbergat who won the 1979 Nobel Prize in Physics:
    “With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

    I disagree. Religion isn’t the cause of war. It’s just the excuse.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  140. reid (15,530 comments) says:

    Fanaticism is not a trait unique to the left, followers of Islam or the barmy army

    Yes Nookin, very true. Shame fanatics don’t realise they’re fanatical isn’t it.

    What concerns me over this issue is thanks to something – who knows what – perception management maybe – a heck of a lot of otherwise normal people, have become or are becoming fanatics over this issue, unable to change their mind or switch their pre-determined thinking whenever this subject comes up, no matter what they hear. And when I say a heck of a lot I’m talking millions if not billions, around the world, over this issue.

    Now an interesting question is, since this phenomena as a global pattern is less than ten years old but is increasing (this blog is but a small minor pimple of a typical example), from whence did this come and why does it not only persist in the face of common sense and reason but to the contrary, continue to grow? Do said fanatics get more and more reinforcement either consciously or subconsciously from the media? If so how come some people who aren’t fanatics and who absorb the same messages remain unaffected? My hypothesis is it’s not correlated to IQ but maybe to EQ.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  141. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    reid

    I think fanatics and bigots have always been able to find like-minded people and information that they think reinforces their beliefs. But the same is true of open-minded people. The internet just means that information can be accessed more quickly and change, or reinforce, opinions accordingly. I doubt we actually have more fanatics as a percentage of the population. It just seems as though they are attracted to blogs, etc, maybe in the same way as they would go to a Munich beer cellar in the 1920s.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  142. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    Hey mikenmild, seeing as you have all the answers and Islam can do no wrong how about you explain this to me like a 5 year old can understand?

    http://shavedlongcock.blogspot.com/2011/02/cbs-reporter-lara-logan-gang-raped-in.html

    “CBS Reporter Lara Logan Gang Raped In Egypt – She was orally, vaginally and anally violated by a large group of Islamic Egyptian protesters”

    Of course being the biggot and extremist here, I need you to explian this to me in very simple terms.

    She was an extremist bigot too?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  143. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    reid – fancy a quick trip to NYC to run your hypothesis past some of the families of 9/11 victims? my hypothesis is that there are millions of people who, having suffered personal loss attributable to muslim proclivities, would suggest where you could shove your hypothesis.

    the media thing is interesting though. are you saying that, for example, the stoning of adulterers is being blown out or proportion by the media, or that it’s just started happening, or what? have aussie blokes always been in the receiving end of 40 lashes for a beer and the media are only now reporting this to accelerate some anti-Islamic campaign?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  144. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    So that’s how Muslims celebrate democracy huh?

    A bit of gang rape thrown in on easily identifiable non-muslim journalists?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  145. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    Firstly, Bobbie, as a five-year-old, you shouldn’t really be commenting on an adults’ blog. And it’s past bed-time.

    But re the unfortunate journalist, was this a religious attack, or was she just unlucky enough to find herself in the middle of a violent crowd?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  146. Nookin (2,887 comments) says:

    Fanaticism has existed through the ages. I suspect that we are more aware of it because we are now part of the information age. Events that arouse reaction come to our attention, usually through a visual medium, almost instantly. The instantaneous impact creates a sense of proximity which in turn creates a sense of invasion of space and excites fear, anger etc. As mm says, the information age also creates a readymade outlet for the expression of emotion.
    None of this analysis means that the left are not infested with a gaggle of gays and self-serving unionists. We are all entitled to our own liitle comfort zone or bubble of bigotry.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  147. reid (15,530 comments) says:

    mm the anti-Muslim sentiment is not spawned only by blogs tho, that’s a minor channel, the major spawning has to be the MSM since there is no way this sentiment could have spread so widely so fast without that.

    It has to be that for what else is there, that is capable of bring this wholesale irrationality for that’s what it is, about?

    Once the huge emotive boost of the 911 spectacle we all saw died down, why didn’t people get back to rational thought patterns? You could say it was a slice the elephant approach, slowly ratcheting it up and with each notch another bunch of people tipped over the edge. But some of it has since unravelled like the Iraq WMDs for example, and that hasn’t seemed to have caused many people to revise their opinion. Instead it’s been ignored, as if it isn’t significant, at all.

    This is classic cognitive dissonance in action. Even if the conclusion is fucking mental (e.g. that every single Muslim is a terrorist), people who support it (publicly or secretly) won’t acknowledge the fallacy, lest it make them, they, themselves, inside themselves, feel stupid. They have to be using this, otherwise how come it’s sticking so hard, in the face of the cold hard facts of reality?

    [Which BTW, contrary to the belief of those fanatics amongst us, isn't reflected by Murdoch's Fox News.]

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  148. Nookin (2,887 comments) says:

    At last count there were something like 1.5 billion muslims wandering the streets. Are they all to be typified as murdering, raping suicidal bombers?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  149. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    @mikenmild…She was orally, vaginally and anally violated by a large group of Islamic Egyptian protesters

    Oh my bad they were Christians…oh no hang on they were Jehovah’s Witnesses…no hang on Scientologists.

    Tell me Mikenmild are you a MUSLIM?

    Study the holiest of holiest books the Koran?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  150. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    Here’s my idea.

    Every time an innocent person in a non-Muslim country is murdered by a Mulism terrorist, 100,000 Muslims should be deported back to whatever desert country they originated from, by blood, for each innocent murdered in a cowardly way.

    In this way, that would have saved the second Bali bombings and let’s face it have saved the lives of innocent Kiwis and Australians.

    Unfortunately in lil old baaaa NZ farming country, after the first bombing this will not happen.

    Sad.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  151. reid (15,530 comments) says:

    reid – fancy a quick trip to NYC to run your hypothesis past some of the families of 9/11 victims?

    kk this is often thrown up in this discussion. It’s the equivalent of the “won’t someone think of the children” argument. Just because a wrong has been done and someone has been blamed for it and someone is a victim of it and the victim of it thinks that the person everyone else is blaming it on is in fact the guilty party, doesn’t mean that person is in fact, the guilty party.

    I’m not saying Muslims didn’t do 911, that’s not this topic, I’m saying just because someone is a 911 victim that doesn’t give them any more or less perspicacity than you or I to accurately determine whether or not a particular Muslim individual amongst the billion plus Muslims, is or is not, a terrorist.

    the media thing is interesting though. are you saying that, for example, the stoning of adulterers is being blown out or proportion by the media, or that it’s just started happening, or what? have aussie blokes always been in the receiving end of 40 lashes for a beer and the media are only now reporting this to accelerate some anti-Islamic campaign?

    Fuck no, I think that’s really barbaric and primitive. I don’t support any of that. I merely state the plain fact that not every Muslim state does that and even if a Muslim lives in a state which does it, that doesn’t mean that individual supports that policy. Who knows why the MSM likes to report that so much? Bit like the Catholic Priests who rape children, isn’t it.

    kk, I’m a Christian, and I know what the Bible says. And I can tell you that there is a profound difference between how Christians act and what the Bible says. I can also tell you there is a profound difference between what Christians think and what the Bible says they should think like. I can also tell you that there are some Christians I have met that are more fanatical about Christianity than Abu Bakir Bashir is about his Islamic faith. I can also tell you that some non-Christians behave with more Christian virtue than some of the Christians I know. All of this says one thing. WE ARE HUMAN. G-d is G-d. Ne’er the twain shall meet. Now if this is true about us, in our civilisation, why should it not also be true about Muslims, in their civilisations?

    Everytime this subject comes up, the same conflation arises: The Ko’ran says X, therefore, it MUST be the case that every single practicing Muslim must ergo, believe and apply that utterly in their lives and in the lives of their children, 100%, 24/7/365.

    As a religious person I can tell you with authority, that is a complete, utter and total fallacy. Yet that’s what we hear, all the time, from people who don’t understand religion and occasionally also from some who do. You cannot analyse a people, from a book. You just can’t.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  152. Nookin (2,887 comments) says:

    The reaction to 9/11, and the reaction that Bobbie appears to be fostering is more like emotional contagion than cognitive dissonance. The only way to deal with this is to foster a cognitive approach to the emotion and analyse it in a logical and rational manner. Difficult when the emotion is deepseated

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  153. huttriverofnz (2 comments) says:

    Let them adapt to our culture. Sharia will not become entrenched here. We will eventually follow suit and ban extremism. Ban burquas, hoodies, crash-helmets and dirty bandanas around dirty faces in public.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  154. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    Hey don’t take any notice of me.

    I’m not going to attack Muslims with violence, just because they are Muslims simply because Muslims have done nothing bad to me, my friends and family, yet.

    And hey, I’ll even throw in that if one of your journalists was being beaten and gang raped just because she was a Muslim, I would even try to stop it.

    Just call me a softy.

    You’re lucky, in this sheep drugged farming country, unfortunately we have to confront a far more real and prolific and even more nasty enemy, the Maoris.

    And I have been threatened physically by them, have had friends physically thtreatened by them and family members threatened by them, simply for not being Maori, and that is far more scary.

    I gave a Maori an evil eye today. It was the first time I had ever been guilty of pre-planned racism.

    It was a start…but felt good.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  155. Nookin (2,887 comments) says:

    Huttriverofnz
    Won’t and cannot happen. What you are advocating is abandonment of the values and beliefs that have been fundamental to their very identity for hundreds of years. If you try that then you will create conflict or fear of conflict which is about as bad. You just need to look at racial issues in NZ to realise that.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  156. reid (15,530 comments) says:

    It was a start…but felt good.

    You should try loving instead of hating Bb.

    That doesn’t mean you should relax your guard, simply that you give them the benefit of the doubt, and if someone abuses it, that was the individual’s fault, not the entire population’s. Pretty soon, good things will happen and your security situation will improve, just you’ll have lots of new friends as well, who, who knows, may help you out one day, when you get a bad egg that really is, just a bad egg.

    Shame you aren’t the U.S. Bb, it would work for them, just as well.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  157. Nookin (2,887 comments) says:

    Interesting discussion, thanks, guys and (maybe) guyesses but time to get some beauty sleep.

    As Reid says, it’s hard to get angry at someone who smiles and lends a hand.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  158. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    I tell you what reid, I was watching a surfing in Taiwan vid, the other day and those guys do the big tongue out thing in their traditional dancing, very similar to the Maori haka…maybe some credence to the theory that they were originally from the Taipei isles, they certainly do have Chinese eyes but with a suntan.

    Anyway, I am out.

    Yeah, always appreciate intelligent posters, which is me, until I get too diluted.

    Good sleep guys.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  159. reid (15,530 comments) says:

    Martin @ 9:17, just read it. Thanks for that insight.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  160. Gwilly (154 comments) says:

    What the media should have really focused on is this evil organisation – “Obedient Wives Club”. It operates in Malaysia & Indonesia and is a terribly abhorrent and repugnant organisation, and the govt should move to ban it immediately and deport this horrid man from our shores.

    There is nowhere in the Koran that mandates the burqa being mandatory and it has only been used by Muslim men to repress and control woman. It’s time one of the political parties took a stand and banned the burqa.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  161. Scott Chris (5,675 comments) says:

    @reid (7,885) Says:
    July 21st, 2011 at 10:21 pm
    “This is classic cognitive dissonance in action. Even if the conclusion is fucking mental (e.g. that every single Muslim is a terrorist), people who support it (publicly or secretly) won’t acknowledge the fallacy, lest it make them, they, themselves, inside themselves, feel stupid. They have to be using this, otherwise how come it’s sticking so hard, in the face of the cold hard facts of reality?”

    The same tribal parochialism that will induce a man to brand all Muslims terrorists, can be seen in a man who will not objectively consider the merits of, say, a tax policy of a political party that he doesn’t support. I suppose it’s the kind of conditioning that many will seek to overcome through religious and philosophical introspection.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  162. Elaycee (4,066 comments) says:

    Milkmilo’s latest pearl: “I doubt we have much to fear. We’d need to admit another 20-30,000 to get to similar levels as Australia, where there’s not much sign of a problem.”

    Don’t travel, huh? Next time you’re in Sydney, open both eyes and all will be revealed. Pffttt

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  163. Nookin (2,887 comments) says:

    Scott Chris
    It is not so much the tax policy but the underlying intentions and philosophy. Graeme Edgeler referred to size of government the other day. Further to the left the basic approach is wealth redistribution. Tax is simply the means of achieving these ends. It is important to recognise these distinctions

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  164. Scott Chris (5,675 comments) says:

    @Nookin (1,051) Says:
    July 22nd, 2011 at 6:48 am

    To clarify my point; for example, a labour party supporter’s parochialism may lead him to discount the possible benefits of smaller goverment in more effectively increasing the relative wealth of the average citizen.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  165. starboard (2,447 comments) says:

    ..Im with you all the way Bobbie Black…useful idiot Mikemilk will be still be welcoming the invading hordes of muslim as they string him up from the nearest tree…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  166. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    starboard

    I think beheading might be the favoured method.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  167. starboard (2,447 comments) says:

    true…head sitting in the basket gurgling ” umm…shit shoulda listened to starb…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  168. Ryan Sproull (6,661 comments) says:

    Its 2nd and 3rd generation muslims turning ‘ fundamental’ that are at the root of muslim problems
    the world over.
    Why is New Zealand going to be different ?
    Because we will be nicer to them than anywhere else ?
    i ask again. Why will New Zealand be any different ?

    Bereal, you failed to answer my question, but I see you answered it when Mike asked you. You want to deny entry to New Zealand to people based on their religion, due to how you predict their children and grandchildren will behave.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  169. mikenmild (8,778 comments) says:

    Pretty sure starboard will be first for the chop when the Chinks, no, Commies, no Muslims get here.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  170. starboard (2,447 comments) says:

    I welcome anyone , Chinese , Europeans , whoever…but no muslims…zilch , nil , nada. Thank you and good day.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  171. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    reid – I agree with your 10:43pm. I’m not in the camp that believes all muslims are evil etc. I know a few as friends, work with a few and have muslim peers across the world. None of these people are evil. None whatsoever. The issue I have is with radical Imams inciting hatred, death and disruption in the name of Islam. Now given that there are 1.5b muslims one could argue that we should be grateful that so few are influenced like this. But the fact is some are. Too many are. And societal refusal to address this, lest it cast the majority is a poor light is pathetic, hand-wringing liberalism that our grandchildren will not thank us for.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  172. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    Gwilly ,
    The obedient Wives Club should be banned here because it promotes polygamy which is against our laws and as you say the codger should be deported. No NZer will ever be allowed to promote his ideas in Malaysia. The plight of foreigners in Malaysia is always ignored as is any good they do. Everything there is for the Malays. It iwill be outrageous and disgusting if this individual is allowed to proceed.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  173. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    I agree to an extent kk – but isn’t it better to support the good majority of Muslims and encourage positve things they do – especially when they do stand up against Islamic practices that aren’t good. That’s what this post was about but became overwhelmed by the bash-all-Muslims brigade.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  174. smttc (638 comments) says:

    Exactly kk. I do not know why this thread got hijacked by the assumption that people who speak out about radical or fundamentalist muslims think all muslims are potential terrorists. Certainly that was not the proposition I put forward in the initial post on this thread.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  175. smttc (638 comments) says:

    PG, the problem is the extremists and fundamentalists drown out and shout down the moderates within Islam.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  176. Pete George (21,804 comments) says:

    smttc – see starboard 6 posts up from here.

    And the answer to your question may be that the extremists on this post drowned out the moderate comments.

    Your original post:
    “Extremist Islam will eventually make its way to our shores as it has everywhere else and shout down any moderates within the religion. Then they will call for Sharia and come for the infidels.”

    Perhaps a bit paranoid?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  177. nasska (9,501 comments) says:

    smttc

    “# smttc (131) Says:
    July 21st, 2011 at 12:14 pm

    It will not make an ounce of difference. Extremist Islam will eventually make its way to our shores as it has everywhere else and shout down any moderates within the religion. Then they will call for Sharia and come for the infidels.”

    I admit to having difficulty in reconciling your original assumption that moderates will be silenced by the extremists vs your latest revelation to the effect that anyone who disagrees with the apologists thinks that all Muslims are potential terrorists.

    Could you elaborate?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  178. smttc (638 comments) says:

    Nasska, my “latest revelation” was not my proposition. I think it was Reid who suggested it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote

Leave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.