General Debate 3 January 2012

January 3rd, 2012 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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155 Responses to “General Debate 3 January 2012”

  1. plebe (271 comments) says:

    The Maori doing what maori do best.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/6208931/Black-Power-suspected-in-stabbing

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  2. hj (7,033 comments) says:

    The one-shot society
    The system that has helped South Korea prosper is beginning to break down
    http://www.economist.com/node/21541713?fsrc=nlw|newe|1-2-2012|new_on_the_economist

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  3. hj (7,033 comments) says:

    http://www.economist.com/node/21541713?fsrc=nlw
    Interesting explanation there of why women have fewer children with education (because of education- in Korea anyway). This phenomena is always cited as the reason population is all looked over by some benign mechanism.

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  4. hj (7,033 comments) says:

    Discussion

    Stillman and Maré (2008), Coleman and Landon-Lane (2007), and Grimes et al (2007) all found a relationship between immigration and house prices at the national level. Interestingly, Stillman and Maré (2008) and Grimes et al (2007), who included sub-national analyses, found much weaker relationships. Further, when the composition of the inflows was disaggregated, the impact of an inflow of overseas born to an area was negligible. Given the lack of a relationship at the local level these results raise doubts about whether the strong positive correlation that exists between migration and house prices at the national level is in fact causal. In other words, given the uneven distribution of immigrants across New Zealand, if immigration were the key driver of recent house price inflation, then it would be expected that areas with higher inflows of immigrants would have the highest levels of house price appreciation. This was not found to be the case and suggests that the relationship at the national level may be a consequence of omitted aggregate time series factors that raise both immigration and house prices.
    http://www.dol.govt.nz/publications/research/synthesis-research/synthesis-research_04.asp

    From a Community Newspaper:
    Once Redcliffs was an unprepossessing fishing village, distinguished by a collection of modest fishermen’s cottages. Most have now dissapeared, replaced by more luxurious residences, and property values have escalated.

    “It’s a standing joke that we’re being taken over by the Americans and British, who have taken advantage of the stronger property markets in their own countires and favourable exchange rates”

    “I know an English couple who have summer here and go back to England in the winter”

    “What other parts of the city have such nice walks?…..
    =================================================================================
    Apart from national house price increases, what about migrants (the result of proactive marketing by Harcourts, Bayley’s ect) picking the eyes out of the best locations? Anyone can afford a house but what about a house on a site that Kiwis traditionally enjoyed?

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  5. hj (7,033 comments) says:

    Edit
    http://www.economist.com/node/21541713?fsrc=nlw
    Interesting explanation there of why women have fewer children with education (because of the stress of educating- in Korea anyway). This phenomena is always cited as implied evidence that population is all looked over by some benign mechanism.

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  6. labours a joke (442 comments) says:

    “Police say they are looking for three Maori men aged between 20 and 23.”

    …standard day in Nil Ziland. Unfortunate really. Was such a nice place once upon a time.

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  7. hj (7,033 comments) says:

    The Maori doing what Maori do best.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/6208931/Black-Power-suspected-in-stabbing
    ……………………………………..
    What sort of response to their behavior would they have experienced/ They probably by now see police and Pakeha society as illegitimate having been exposed to a lot of left wing twaddle saying (essentially) “greater society is illegitimate, so your misbehavior is just a response”.

    eg:
    Self determination
    Last issue a letter commenting on “Self determination” under Te Tiriti o Waitangi suggested we are too small a country to address issues of colonisation and we should “forget” about them. The thesis was that few Maori are “pure bred” anyway. My tangata whenua “part Pakeha” mates find this concept quite amusing as they cannot find any pure Pakeha, English, Scots or Irish people
    either. The concept of “race” is inherently “racist”. Part of self determination is a human right to define your own cultural identity. And collective self determination has already been exercised by the hapu of Tuhoe and others whether the rest of us understand it or not. This is not athreat to anyone.
    We may be a small country but we can lead the world if we have the courage to face our issues and embrace the opportunity Te Tiriti offers us to make peace between peoples. The economic marginalisation of tangata whenua in my home town is a heartbreaking example of a failed system privileging one culture.
    I am glad the Green Party constitution upholds Te Tiriti. Let’s keep talking about how we can make it real.

    Catherine Delahunty, Turanga nui a
    Kiwa (Gisborne)

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  8. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Just a reminder

    We would love you to join our movement.
    If you don’t that’s no problem, it is up to you.
    We will just press this little button

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100056586/eco-fascism-jumps-the-shark-massive-epic-fail/

    No pressure……

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  9. labours a joke (442 comments) says:

    “Catherine Delahunty,”

    ..someone who suffers from f.i.t.h. syndrome.

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  10. Paulus (2,632 comments) says:

    What a disappointing Editorial in today’s Herald.
    Can they not accept that the “media hack” who “accidentally” left his microphone on during a private conversation, and “accidentally” sold this to the media (TV3), who “accidentally” let Winston have a transcript (“accidentally” Paddy Gower”) – who went to the High Court and did not get the decision he wanted should use MY TAXES to pay his costs.
    Herald getting more pathetic – more like News of the World.
    Sad really that we have such a useless so called media.
    But not many people read the Herald outside Auckland and its holiday time.

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  11. JamesS (352 comments) says:

    What a good idea!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Raids – I have always said that people in the past were far more enlightened than today.

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  12. Chuck Bird (4,897 comments) says:

    Paulus, I was going to comment on the same thing. This is about the sixth article on the same topic in less than a fortnight. One thing in the Herald’s credit is that it appears they are publishing posts that oppose their view. I hope others post to the Herald blog.

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  13. Scott Chris (6,155 comments) says:

    Other_Andy says:- “No Pressure”

    Don’t know why Dellingpole and others are making such a fuss. Nothing sinister here and the controversy angle works well. And 1010 is really rather funny:

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  14. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    What planet is Colin James on? ”Canterbury” will become a supercity..Well firstly , Canterbury is a province so it isn’t likely to become a city anytime soon..Secondly Christchurch , yes CHCH is a city , was amalgamated about twenty years ago which is why we have so much corruption , deception , cronyism , nepotism , you name it , if it is negative and dysfunctional we have it..
    What laziness passing as journalism.
    A young man , Sam Johnson has shown up almost all the paid officials in CHCH. His leadership and organizational skills are far superior to all these overpaid incompetents. It is no surprise that he is in demand all over the world.

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  15. Don the Kiwi (1,763 comments) says:

    JamesS
    9.48 am.
    The Palmer raids. If they did that in the US now, the first ones to get the bum’s rush would be Obumbler and his sycophants. :-)

    Bring it on.

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  16. BlueGriffon (204 comments) says:

    Agree Paulus! This is the second editorial and third mention this year on the same topic. They also had stories on the 27th and 28th. They serioulsy need to get over it.

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  17. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    …standard day in Nil Ziland. Unfortunate really. Was such a nice place once upon a time.

    …then John Key got elected and it all turned to shit

    the guys a jinx eh !!!

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  18. Longknives (4,767 comments) says:

    Spare a thought for poor Wayne Rooney has been docked a weeks pay- $448 000…
    No Granny hookers this week….

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  19. travellerev (148 comments) says:

    Happy New Year everyone!

    Today I thought I’d give you a link to an interview. The interviewee is a young lady who worked as a stripper. The girl used to go out with Mohamed Atta the alleged ringleader of the al Qaeda 19 accused of the 911 attacks. These 19 fanatic Muslims had a PR problem. They loved booze, babes, Cocaine and pork. Not quite the ideal Muslim I’d say.

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  20. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    @SC

    Controversial yes, funny…not so much.
    It makes you think about some of the statements made in the past.

    “My three main goals would be to reduce human population to about 100 million worldwide, destroy the industrial infrastructure and see wilderness, with it’s full complement of species, returning throughout the world.”
    Dave Foreman, co-founder of ‘Earth First!’.

    “Human beings, as a species, have no more value than slugs.”
    John Davis, editor of ‘Earth First!’ Journal

    “One America burdens the earth much more than twenty Bangladeshes. This is a terrible thing to say.
    In order to stabilize world population,we must eliminate 350,000 people per day. It is a horrible thing to say, but it’s just as bad not to say it.”
    Jacques Cousteau, UNESCO

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  21. labours a joke (442 comments) says:

    p-wog…*grunt*..remove head *grunt*…from ass…” pop “…there, thats better…now we can understand ya..

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  22. JamesS (352 comments) says:

    Pollywog, no it was much earlier than that – David Lange got elected and it all turned to shit.

    The productive sectors of the economy – manufacturing, farming and exporters – were targeted with policies to undermine them, handouts to bludgers and useless people were introduced, a crazy foreign policy was followed, a tax system favouring speculation rather than productive businesses was introduced.

    All in all – 27 years of madness and living standards have been falling ever since, despite our terms of trade being so favourable.

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  23. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Scary News indeed

    The Arctic ocean is warming up, icebergs are growing scarcer and in some places the seals are finding the water too hot, according to a report to the Commerce Department yesterday from Consul Ifft, at Bergen , Norway .
    Reports from fishermen, seal hunters and explorers, he declared, all point to a radical change in climate conditions and hitherto unheard-of temperatures in the Arctic zone.
    Exploration expeditions report that scarcely any ice has been met with as far north as 81 degrees 29 minutes. Soundings to a depth of 3,100 meters showed the gulf stream still very warm. Great masses of ice have been replaced by moraines of earth and stones, the report continued, while at many points well known glaciers have entirely disappeared. Very few seals and no white fish are found in the eastern Arctic, while vast shoals of herring and smelts, which have never before ventured so far north, are being encountered in the old seal fishing grounds.

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  24. reid (16,513 comments) says:

    http://consortiumnews.com/2011/12/30/urging-obama-to-stop-rush-to-iran-war/

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  25. publicwatchdog (2,622 comments) says:

    Happy New year Kiwibloggers!

    What do you think about this?

    http://www.petitiononline.co.nz/signatures/oppose-the-new-zealand-government-food-bill-160-2/1301
    Petition signatures Oppose the New Zealand Government Food Bill 160-2 – Petition Online – New Zealan
    http://www.petitiononline.co.nz

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10776370

    Food safety reforms attacked as ‘scary’
    By Derek Cheng
    5:30 AM Tuesday Jan 3, 2012
    Food Bill gives inspectors sweeping powers while small traders fear compliance costs. Photo / Supplied

    A bill bringing sweeping reform to food safety standards is being criticised for giving food safety officers excessive power and threatening the viability of small-scale food sellers and backyard community food swaps.

    The bill, which is almost certain to become law with the support of most political parties, would replace 30-year-old legislation, which falls short of properly protecting consumers, and create a new framework for food safety.

    But small operators fear that new compliance costs could push them under, while others have concerns about the bill’s effects on community food swaps and growers who sell small amounts to retailers.

    An online petition, which says the bill impedes the basic right to share food, has gathered almost 24,000 signatures…..”

    Penny Bright

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  26. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    JamesS

    You’ve actually hit the nail on the head. Although the order had to change it was at that precise point of time that the “old” New Zealand disappeared. Subsidised agriculture, poorly made & expensive manufactured goods, shocking inflation & unions running rampant had pushed NZ Inc to the edge of the cliff. The new order promised much but delivered less.

    It is impossible to turn back the clock & few of us would want to do so but the blaming of our current leader for all the ills in NZ is simplistic & childish……the social problems of today have developed incrementally under the auspices of both National & Labour.

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  27. Scott Chris (6,155 comments) says:

    Other_Andy says:- “funny…not so much.”

    I find it funny as I see no evidence of *actual* environmental fascism in the real world, only bluster and rhetoric. The same kind of bluster and rhetoric that you see from any extremist faction of a political movement.

    In the end, the majority of environmentalists realize that wiping out most other species and habitats won’t really matter in the long run from ‘Gaia’s’ perspective, because whatever is left will diversify over millions of years to refill all the ecological niches that have been left vacant, as has happened in all the previous extinction events.

    But the difference with this, the sixth extinction event, is that humans are the cause of it, and also have the power to avert any further *net* habitat/speciel loss. Not to do so would reflect very poorly on our species’ moral integrity.

    And sometimes you need to shock people a bit, because we have a cognitive tendency to normalize everything.

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  28. JamesS (352 comments) says:

    Thank you Nasska; I think everyone has been conned about New Zealand circa. 1983. If you believe the self serving ACT party people we were living in a 3rd World banana republic.

    Those of us alive at the time and who remember it well curiously do not remember things anywhere near as bad as Sir Roger et al would have everyone believe.

    At worst NZ had let the overdraft get away on us; big deal, happens all the time and was hardly a crisis.

    All that was required was tarriff reform, industrial relations reform, abolishing exchange controls and allowing competition in the domestic economy – policies Muldoon would probably have introduced had he been re elected and all minor stuff which the Australian government at the time was doing and we would have too. Would have taken all of about 2 days of parliamentary time.

    You will notice the Australian government of the 1980s did not set out to actually destroy entire industries (for no better reason than the people involved vote National) and destroy a perfectly good way of life.

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  29. reid (16,513 comments) says:

    At worst NZ had let the overdraft get away on us; big deal, happens all the time and was hardly a crisis.

    This TVNZ doco from the time spells it out really well. You have to watch each clip in succession from the sidebar menu till you go to the next part…

    Part one: http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/revolution-1-fortress-new-zealand-2009

    Two: http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/revolution–the-grand-illusion-1996

    Three: http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/revolution-the-great-divide-1996

    Four: http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/revolution-the-new-country-1996

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  30. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    @JamesS………………….policies Muldoon would probably have introduced had he been re elected ………………

    Sir Robert would have no more made farmers go it alone than fly to the moon.

    I don’t know how old you are but in the late 70’s I was walking by the shell of the BNZ in Wellington on my way to work and in the early 80’s I regularly drove over the Mangere Bridge looking wistfully at the proposed new bridge sitting with nothing happening.

    At this time NZ was a controlled backwater, not allowed to buy a drink at the bar in a night club it was all waitress service only price freezes, car less days, all politicians having to cozy up to bullying union thugs.

    Nasska says,- much was promised – and I believe much has been delivered with the changes, we might have had a stock market bubble, we might have had a housing bubble but a least people have been able to buy a house, buy a rental or two ,things that prior to ’84 were only able to be done by a very small section of society.

    Mind you, seeing Fletchers get all the Christchurch work takes us right back to the 1960’s.

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  31. Brian Smaller (4,023 comments) says:

    Happy New Year everyone!

    Today I thought I’d give you a link to an interview. The interviewee is a young lady who worked as a stripper. The girl used to go out with Mohamed Atta the alleged ringleader of the al Qaeda 19 accused of the 911 attacks. These 19 fanatic Muslims had a PR problem. They loved booze, babes, Cocaine and pork. Not quite the ideal Muslim I’d say.

    On the contrary. They were ideal Muslims. They were undercover jihadis and part of their training was to be like the kuffir – to fit in and be invisible. So, eating proscribed foods, drinking and womanising was just part of their cover. Al Queda training manuals are quite specific about this. The guys who blew themselves to bits on London trains were the same.

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  32. plebe (271 comments) says:

    The colours RED and BLUE seem to send maoris and islanders into a frenzy making them attack and kill all and sundry, men, women, KIDS, animals,everything. Should these two colours be banned and labour and nationals party colours be changed to stop the ethnic gang primatives from going off like skyrockets. I feel a treaty claim comming up as maori were not exposed to such mind altering colours till us white motherfuckers came along with tui,holdens fords and lastlylion red.

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  33. Keeping Stock (10,342 comments) says:

    Karl du Fresne demolishes the whingeing of the Left as to whether or not John Key has a mandate. Remind me again; which side of the political divide pushed so hard for MMP?

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2012/01/mandate-or-no-mandate.html

    Sorry Lefties; just be careful what you wish for in future :-)

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  34. MT_Tinman (3,204 comments) says:

    JamesS, indeed things were not as bad in 1983 as Sir Roger Douglas et al would have us believe.

    They were worse!

    60,000,000 bloody sheep, all of them being subsidised by the poor bloody taxpayer, cockies having no need at all to farm as a business, trade unions and racist organisations openly encouraged, trade and our only important overseas trade partners thoroughly pissed off.

    NZ was well on the way to becoming a bankrupt banana republic.

    Muldoon prior to 1981 was the best thing NZ had going for it but post 1981 things went very wrong.

    What went wrong with the Lange government was that it stopped half way, Lange ran out of intestinal fortitude and demanded NZ stop “for a cuppa”.

    However not even the Lange/Palmer fiasco was as bad the dishonest Bolger (post the great and good Ruth) government that started giving away large tracts and monetary amounts to half (and less) breeds, reinforced the right of females to breed at taxpayers’ expense, made Winnie more important than he should have been and generally fucked the country simply to retain power.

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  35. reid (16,513 comments) says:

    Excellent doco on WWII Enigma code-breakers:

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  36. Keeping Stock (10,342 comments) says:

    Actually Tinman, I think that Muldoon’s demise started with the second oil shock in 1979/80; remember Carless Days? And remember all the subterfuge to get around Carless Days? Muldoon’s economic megalomania really began around that time.

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  37. cha (4,036 comments) says:

    Coincidentally, Alan Turing, the inventor of the Bombe, gets the stamp of approval.

    Turing worked as part of the team that cracked the Enigma code at Bletchley Park, and went on to help create the world’s first modern computer. This year marks the centenary of his birth.

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  38. Viking2 (11,490 comments) says:

    MT_Tinman (1,626) Says:
    January 3rd, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    JamesS, indeed things were not as bad in 1983 as Sir Roger Douglas et al would have us believe.

    They were worse!

    Muldoon prior to 1981 was the best thing NZ had going for it but post 1981 things went very wrong.
    Nah never was anything but a drunk.

    What went wrong with the Lange government was that it stopped half way, Lange ran out of intestinal fortitude and demanded NZ stop “for a cuppa”.

    Yep that’s correct.

    However not even the Lange/Palmer fiasco was as bad the dishonest Bolger (post the great and good Ruth) government that started giving away large tracts and monetary amounts to half (and less) breeds, reinforced the right of females to breed at taxpayers’ expense, made Winnie more important than he should have been and generally fucked the country simply to retain power.

    great and good Ruth

    You are joking of course. All mouth and trousers. Was responsible for more destruction of businesses than the eighties reforms because she only attacked the weak. Attacked the unemployment beneficiaries and took $14 out of their meagre $120. Been an unmitigated disater in everything she has laid hands on since. Try SCF. Ego greater than ability and understanding.

    dishonest Bolger. You forgot lazy and pompous.

    made Winnie more important than he should have been.
    Ah now you are getting to the core issue, which is the movement of the National Party away from its core principles to the left leaning socialist managers that they are currently. Peters,is still more right than the National Party and like all lefties the left National party needs to attack the right.

    Ironic isn’t it.

    Unfortunately our host falls into the same trap.

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  39. cha (4,036 comments) says:

    I reckon it was the price/wage freeze and the 23% interest rates that started Muldoon’s slide and Sir Bob finished the job.

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  40. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay

    As you & MT_Tinman have pointed out NZ was pulled into the real world by the efforts of the Lange government 1984-87. Our vital primary export sector was in trouble & the economy was slipping backwards but the slide could have been stopped without turning NZ on its ear. There’s no going back & no will to do so but it can be safely noted that every political move has consequences both good & bad. The downside to the reforms was the dismantling of the manufacturing sector.

    NZ for various reasons never manufactured quality goods…..the market was too small, the post war governments were too quick to give NZ industries protection & the unions wrecked productivity. All bad, agreed, BUT it kept our people in work. Roger Douglas despite his Labour ties never gave a stuff for the displaced workers. If my memory serves me correctly he is on record as saying they could be employed in the service sector or go on the dole until the brave new world delivered us riches untold. It didn’t happen an our intergenerational welfare dependency started then.

    Re the stopping for a ‘cup of tea’. Lange at least had the political wits to realise that a government can only move as fast as the electorate will let them. ACT supporters get misty eyed when they see how close their Nirvana came to fruition but the man in the street was sensing speed wobbles.

    We’ll never know for sure who was right.

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  41. MT_Tinman (3,204 comments) says:

    V2, National has always, at least in my lifetime, been left leaning. The only exception being when the indeed great and good Ruth Richardson was allowed to influence financial policy.

    Why you expect otherwise I’m confused.

    Winnie is, of course, not further right than National although had he succeeded in leading the National party he would probably have steered the part towards the right. NZ would also not now suffer under the abortion that is MMP.

    Winnie is, and has been since his demise as a National party player, neither right nor left but simply populist.

    NZ First once Winnie retires will, if it survives, probably go right rather than left but as ACT has proved, being on the right in NZ politics is a hard job, something you need to work at.

    I doubt the current NZF could spell “work” let alone do the hard stuff.

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  42. MT_Tinman (3,204 comments) says:

    Cha, I paid 23% when the country was recovering from Muldoon under Lange/Douglas, can’t remember paying anything like that previously.

    In fact I doubt Muldoon would have let his overly managed economy allow such a thing

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  43. JamesS (352 comments) says:

    Okay I want to say a couple of things –

    1. Contrary to almost universal perception it was the Muldoon government in May 1984 which ended the SMP farm subsidy scheme, not Sir Roger as everyone thinks. (You do not believe me but check it out and you will see I am correct)

    2. What people remember about being ‘bad’ were some social issues in the early 1980s – the Springbok tour, nuclear ship protests, large numbers leaving for Australia; and that 1982 was a very boring year where little happened. All minor stuff in the scheme of things which large numbers of people falsely remember as evidence of things being ‘bad’.

    3. The other problem, which was hardly the fault of the National party, was that New Zealand’s terms of trade were very bad in the early 1980s; that problem eventually corrected itself.

    What REALLY happened is that Douglas and co decided to f*** various groups of people – farmers, manufacturers etc – who provided the bedrock of support for the National party…(“I spent the best years of my life in opposition because you buggers voted National – now it is payback!”)..and by god did these people get a good rogering! (no pun intended)

    Their motivation was nothing more than that and to justify it (as they could hardly come out and say so) they created imaginary financial crises and a perception we were at the edge of a cliff; this perception gained credibility by a supportive and compliant media and the population swallowed it whole.

    Not only was the entire thing untrue, not only were we nowhere near the edge of a cliff – there was not even a cliff!

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  44. Manolo (13,838 comments) says:

    New year, same delusions. The tin-foil hat wearer and “genius” from the Netherlands strikes again.

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  45. cha (4,036 comments) says:

    #MT_Tinman

    The local authority bond rate in 1981 was 13% (9 years and over) and when bought my first home in 1981 I was paying 19%(10 years) for a first mortgage with the Post office savings bank and 23%(7 years) for a second with the Southern Cross Building Society.

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  46. hj (7,033 comments) says:

    During the Muldoon era people used to say “if the farmers are doing well everyone is doing well”, now that seems to have been replaced by concern for the health of the property market.

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  47. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    JamesS

    …..”New Zealand’s terms of trade were very bad in the early 1980s”……….

    They had been slipping since the mid 70’s when Britain decided that the Commonwealth could get stuffed & that they were getting into bed with the EEC. There was genuine amazement in a NZ which had sacrificed tens of thousands of its men fighting wars for the “Old Country” that we could be cut adrift. Decades of driving their shit cars & then they didn’t want our wool or butter. We needed new markets but world trade protectionism made the going slow.

    This was the background to Muldoon’s economic regulations & ‘borrow & hope’ policies culminating in his 1984 loss to Lange.

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  48. wat dabney (3,778 comments) says:

    nasska,

    All bad, agreed, BUT it kept our people in work. Roger Douglas despite his Labour ties never gave a stuff for the displaced workers.

    Douglas treated everyone equally. Why should consumers be forced to pay a premium for sub-standard goods? Douglas just gave people the freedom for everyone to spend their own money as they saw fit, rather than how various special-interest groups would have them.

    JamesS,

    Douglas and co decided to f*** various groups of people

    How is taking away someone’s undeserved privilege ‘f***ing’ them?

    If a particular special-interest group has manipulated the political process to give themselves privileges and benefits at the expense of everyone else it takes a particularly twisted mentality to view the subsequent removal of that immoral situation as ‘f***ing’ the perpetrators.

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  49. MT_Tinman (3,204 comments) says:

    Cha, I bought my first house in November 1983 and was, initially, paying sub 10% (can’t remember the actual figure but I think it might have been 8%) for the first mortgage and not a great deal more for the second.

    Refinanced to a floating mortgage while setting up my first business a couple of years later (a foolish move indeed) and ended up at one stage paying 13% for the first, 23% for the second (and back working for a living).

    I’m surprised (to say the least) at your figures but stand corrected.

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  50. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    wat dabney

    I accept that the reforms represented economic freedom but as I stated they came at a cost, the price being our egalitarian lifestyle where everyone could be employed. We can never go back & neither should we but it has to be recognised that it was a Labour Government that broadcast & watered the seeds which grew into a bloc of people where no one has worked for three generations.

    Labour….looking after the working man. Yeah, right.

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  51. DJP6-25 (1,388 comments) says:

    wat dabney 3:41pm. You are right.

    cheers

    David Prosser

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  52. wat dabney (3,778 comments) says:

    nasska,

    I accept that the reforms represented economic freedom but as I stated they came at a cost, the price being our egalitarian lifestyle where everyone could be employed.

    There is no reason to suppose that countries which are less open to trade have lower unemployment. And in practise the reverse appears to hold:

    This paper documents a robust empirical regularity: in the long-run, higher trade openness is causally associated to a lower structural rate of unemployment. We establish this fact using: (i) panel data from 20 OECD countries, (ii) cross-sectional data on a larger set of countries.

    http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1409288

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  53. Elaycee (4,393 comments) says:

    “New year, same delusions. The tin-foil hat wearer and “genius” from the Netherlands strikes again.”

    Yup, manolo – a new year has dawned but still we are infested with the malaise that is the blog parasite – the morons that lack the ability to create their own blog to spout crap so they take advantage of DPF’s blog to try and spread their conspiracy theories whilst adding links to propaganda that suits their own version of history.

    Some things just don’t change, manolo….. but we can live in hope.

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  54. cha (4,036 comments) says:

    MT_Tinman, the SO tells me it was 1982 and that we actually had a devil of a job even getting a mortgage, young, low incomes etc, and for the first couple of years we certainly struggled. But then Hallelujah!, along came the think big job at Motonui and we haven’t looked back.

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  55. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    wat dabney

    It’s hard to argue against the theory that trade brings prosperity & as a nation we are far ahead of where we would have been had the economic fortress that was NZ in the early 80’s continued. What is fair to say is that generally we moved in tandem with the rest of the developed world who also saw tariffs as a curse rather than a blessing. Our level of unemployment is okay relative to our trading partners but inferior to the conditions of full employment which existed in the 50’s, 60’s & 70’s.

    It is also fair to say that had we stayed with policies of that time we would now be rivaling the prosperity of that other workers’ paradise north of South Korea.

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  56. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    nasska (2,422) Says:
    January 3rd, 2012 at 3:52 pm
    I accept that the reforms represented economic freedom but as I stated they came at a cost, the price being our egalitarian lifestyle where everyone could be employed

    So much of the full employment being harked backed to was in itself a form of welfare anyway, like you mentioned subsidized shitty merchandise. This employment was being subsidized directly by the prices we paid at the till.

    And prior to 1984 I believe we as a country were no better than a welfare recipient anyway. I remember the uproar when the UK decided they weren’t going to just keep taking all our lamb -….those bastards, they owe us..that to to me sounds like any number of bludgers living in Aotea Square polluting the place up.

    I believe we grew us a country after 1984 somewhat, we had to look for markets etc and socially we went ahead in leaps and bounds, no longer was a dinner out a choice of Tony’s in Wellesley Street or Tony’s Lorne Street or Cobb and Co on the ‘Shore.

    Unfortunately with freedom comes responsibility and that’s where we have failed to grow up as a country

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  57. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    nasska,


    “I accept that the reforms represented economic freedom but as I stated they came at a cost, the price being our egalitarian lifestyle where everyone could be employed.”

    Our level of unemployment is okay relative to our trading partners but inferior to the conditions of full employment which existed in the 50′s, 60′s & 70′s.”

    I think you’ll find the employment and general economic conditions of the era were a result of our trading relationship with the United Kingdom. However this diminished with the UK joining the European Economic Community. According to Wikipedia in 1955 the UK took 65 percent of our exports, but by 1973 only took 26.8 percent. By 2000 it was 6.2 percent.

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  58. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay

    Agreed that NZ manufacturing was a form of welfare. Also you’ll probably remember the time when Muldoon made the dole queue disappear by making NZR take on about 10.000 employees they didn’t need. As a nation NZ probably lacked maturity but as far as the people of my parents’ generation were concerned the price of Britain’s patronage of our primary exports had been paid by the blood of our soldiers fighting the Poms’ shitty wars for them.

    …”Unfortunately with freedom comes responsibility and that’s where we have failed to grow up as a country”….

    If you’d enlarge on that it would make interesting reading.

    Weihanna

    Thanks for the figures. The returns we got for our produce for much of the 50’s & 60’s underpinned our experiments with socialism. I reckon we probably forgot that bad times follow good & allowed that misunderstanding to become part of the nation’s psyche.

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  59. reid (16,513 comments) says:

    Unfortunately with freedom comes responsibility and that’s where we have failed to grow up as a country

    Only cause of the bullshit perpetuated through the MSM and the education system about the “failed policies of the 90’s” Paul.

    It’s the extent to which this one-eyed bullshit has been extended so blanket-like across the spectrum with almost nothing of the alternative perspective which determines the percentage of confusion among the population today about the true as opposed to fantasy root causes of our current situation and such confusion is extremely widespread and indeed expanding today as conditions worsen, as you know and can observe.

    This isn’t limited to us look at US as another, worse e.g. but FFS, since we’re only 4m people you woulda thought at one point we woulda got a political leader who looked beyond their immediate popularity and for example called bullshit accordingly on such memes, despite the short term heat it would generate. (Yes, I am joking, I know those kinds of politicians don’t exist – here.)

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  60. Griff (7,818 comments) says:

    Any one who wants to go back to the pre roger times must be mad
    every thing on import licenses
    This made some very rich
    Giltrap SpencerTodds
    I would question the degree of corruption

    railways and nz post were the unemployment benefit
    They give shit service and were an utter joke

    booze barns remember drinking in the public bar
    lion red or db

    restricted range of expensive product. Tape deck yours was the same as everyone else.
    begging relies that headed overseas for some duty free

    crap bomb cars so rusty that many broke apart in minor crashes

    wage price spiral unions in charge strikes every Christmas and in killing season

    shadbolt prosecuted for saying shit

    much better now freedom counts for a lot

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  61. holysheet (402 comments) says:

    Bought my first house in the begining of muldoons last year. We had a 1st mortgage of 12%, 2nd mortgage of 18% (fixed rate) By the end of it rates had changed to 1st of 23% and still going up.

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  62. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    …”Unfortunately with freedom comes responsibility and that’s where we have failed to grow up as a country”….

    If you’d enlarge on that it would make interesting reading.

    No guarantees that it will be remotely interesting but I can best sum that up by saying no one will take any individual responsibility, everything is always someone else’s fault and to re-enforce this thinking we have 83 million civil servants agreeing with them so they can justify their jobs.

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  63. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    Griff

    I don’t think that anyone on this board wants to go back either.

    It’s just that the past couple of days have seen a lot of discussion on the results of people being born into families where no one can remember what it is like to work for a living. Those who exclude themselves from the workforce are over represented in all negative statistics….crime, health, education & whatever.

    The discussion is only hypothetical as the clock can’t be turned back but the question begging is along the lines of do we pay more in social costs so we can buy cheap toasters?

    Pauleastbay

    Anything it lacks in interest is made up for in fact & brevity. Thanks.

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  64. big bruv (13,934 comments) says:

    I wonder if any of those who seem to think NZ (in the years pre 84) was a south sea paradise actually lived in that era?

    Remember when you could not buy fresh orange juice?
    Remember when you had to have a prescription to purchase margarine?
    Remember when the only shoes you could buy were crappy NZ made things?

    The list goes on and on. What Douglas did (let’s face it, Lange had fuck all to do with it as he was an inherently lazy bastard) was remove privilege. Every year or so big business (big inefficient business) came to Wellington with their cap in hands begging for another license from Muldoon. When these useless pricks got their license they went away back to their sheltered workshops and kept producing rubbish safe in the knowledge that poor Kiwis had no other option but to buy their shit.

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  65. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/6210871/Drag-queen-tampon-ad-transphobic

    Tampon maker Libra has been branded “outrageously transphobic” over its new ad implying transgender people are not real women because they do not menstruate.

    A handful of supporters, all men, defended the ad, saying the criticisms were political correctness gone crazy.

    But female critics hit back, saying the ad was probably written by men who, obviously, neither menstruate nor buy Libra products.

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  66. Scott Chris (6,155 comments) says:

    Weihana

    re the Libra ad – for a feminist perspective, check out the hand mirror blog.

    http://thehandmirror.blogspot.com/

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  67. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    big bruv

    I was born in 1949 so yes I can remember those times warts, pimples & all. It wasn’t a South Seas paradise by any means but we certainly didn’t suffer the social problems of today.

    You should acknowledge that we weren’t alone in our attempts at self sufficiency….. I can’t recall the name of any developed nation that didn’t have policies similar to ours….everyone wanted to export but no one wanted to import.

    If we had been the first or only country to abolish tariffs we wouldn’t have been able to pay the bills.

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  68. transmogrifier (522 comments) says:

    Transgenders are not real women, at least genetically speaking. And they wouldn’t use tampons. This is not a “stereotype” of transgenders but actual facts. Not that I’d ever hold that against them.

    And therein lies my problem with this “outrage” – while I can see people getting upset with the stereotyping the behaviour of a certain group when not all individuals of that group exhibit that behaviour, I don’t understand how you can get upset with simple facts which aren’t even used as a stick to beat that group with. They are just things that happen to be true that are used to sell some tampons. Big deal.

    Hell, men are stereotyped way, way, way more in TV advertisements, and I don’t give a crap.

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  69. reid (16,513 comments) says:

    By insinuating that if you use tampons you are somehow more of a female Libra is a perpetuating an outdated image of women.

    Scott that was from your handmirror site.

    All I have to say is, if feminists don’t recognise that in fact as an actual factual statement that’s actually pretty fair enough, then they the most utter mentals I have ever met. What the fuck is the matter with feminists that they don’t recognise science when they see it to the point where if they put their mental perspective to anyone in the High Street they would be met with a blank stare. This is how mental it is.

    Nevertheless this is how both feminists and communists progressives actually work. They put an idea out there, be it gay marriage, gay adoption, the idea that being a woman isn’t about biology, call it a “human right” and then just let it seep in over a decade or so while the university lecturers get hold of it.

    You watch over the years Scott as this thought seeps in to the vague and confused in our society = 95%. You watch.

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  70. JamesS (352 comments) says:

    Here are the sorts of things “we do not want to go back to” from New Zealand circa. 1983 –

    Everyone aware of the difference between right and wrong
    No militant Maori getting Treaty settlement money
    Cohesive family units where values were taught around the dinner table
    People being allowed to call a spade a spade
    No corrupt Chinamen buying up farms and making NZers tenants in their own country
    Full employment, high living standards
    Schools teaching ‘values’ to pupils
    Schools teaching NZ history which bore some relation to the truth
    Schools teaching pupils to read, right and spell (fancy that!)
    Social cohesian and a sense of patriotism (check out the money raised for Telethon 1983 or the ratings for one day cricket)
    No militant, overrated, hysterical screamers (feminists, gay, Maori activists claiming to speak for ‘their people’) demanding their rights
    No self appointed arbiter of public opinion demanding everybody “celebrate diversity” (because there wasn’t any)
    Investment dollars found their way into export industries rather than housing
    Everyone knew their neighbours
    Everyone respected institutions and other people

    I could go on and on for the next couple of hours.

    To those of you too young to remember 1983 – is it possible you have ‘swallowed it whole’?
    To those of you old enough to remember 1983 I ask you to think back to that time, what you were doing, things that were happening and ask yourself –

    1. Did it REALLY seem like the ‘dark ages’? (there is a very good, and fairly obvious, reason why it didn’t seem so at the time)
    2. Has the subsequent “1983 was the dark ages” line been the truth, or a case of swallowing it whole?
    3. Would you believe GDP growth that year was 8%? (not exactly banana republic stuff)
    4. Would you believe unemployment halved?
    5. If Douglas was really the messiah why did the people who knew him best – his own party – engage in open rebellion against his policies? (they knew he was full of it, they knew it was a con and they knew he was wrong)
    6. Can you remember anybody not in the professional wingeing category going around saying “times are tough”?
    7. etc
    8. etc etc

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  71. adze (2,126 comments) says:

    “Hell, men are stereotyped way, way, way more in TV advertisements, and I don’t give a crap.”

    It’s got a little better in the past 5 years or so; but most other groups are still nitroglycerin in comparison.

    I’m not personally offended by the ad, but I can sort of see why some might be. It’s a risk that the Saatchi’s of this world take.

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  72. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    reid,

    I don’t follow your segue into gay marriage. Biology is a fact of nature. A transgender person is not a real woman. Marriage is a man-made institution which can be defined as we consider appropriate. Gay marriage does not imply some demented view of biology, it simply affords the same equal protection of the laws as afforded to heterosexual relationships.

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  73. labours a joke (442 comments) says:

    Youre onto it James..hole in one.

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  74. reid (16,513 comments) says:

    I don’t follow your segue into gay marriage.

    It is just another feminist meme I was citing Weihana, nothing more. I define feminism broadly, more broadly than its advocates would claim applies, as I do with communism pwogwessivism.

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  75. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    JamesS

    You’ve covered it fairly fully but I must make two comments:

    1) The values & conditions of whatever era you are living in is the ‘norm’ & useful comparison is difficult even with the benefit of hindsight.

    2) Even although agriculture is my game when did you last hear a farmer say that times weren’t tough? We live, we breathe, we moan, it’s just the way we are.

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  76. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    @JamesS (318) Says:
    January 3rd, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    Well JamesS I don’t know how old you are but you were living in a different NZ than I was through teh 60’s and 70’s.

    But I’ll just cherry pick your list:

    No corrupt Chinamen buying up farms and making NZers tenants in their own country– All I’ll say about that load of bollocks is hopefully the US won’t kck Graeme Hart out for buying US business’s

    Full employment, high living standards The full employment myth was nothing more than subsidization by us poor mugs paying for inferior locally made shit.

    Social cohesian and a sense of patriotism (check out the money raised for Telethon 1983 or the ratings for one day cricket
    It was all novelty value for a start, and there was two channels to watch. One day cricket was new .

    Everyone knew their neighbours DUh

    i>If Douglas was really the messiah why did the people who knew him best – his own party – engage in open rebellion against his policies Because as stated by others here today, they were gutless whimps lead by the leading gutless whimp of his generation Lange.

    Again if you are a 60 year old and have lived through this I’ll give you some credeence and you are just looking through rose tinted Ray Bans but otherwise you are being a bit sad.

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  77. JamesS (352 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay –

    1. It is not a load of bollocks when Chinese buyers of Crafar farms deliberately pollute rivers (and then claim not to speak English) thereby destroying our dairy industry and NZ is told ‘tough titty’ and caveat emptor. Graham Hart is white and not intending to rip off America.

    2. The elaborate security systems you and millions of other NZers have is designed to keep ‘certain people’ out of your house. The National government of the day was aware that idle hands make mischief and offered tax incentives to business to employ certain types of people – which they did – to stop them being idle and running amok burgling your house. I freely admit it was all a subsidy but what would you rather pay – a subsidy to keep the lower classes busy or welfare, police, court and prison costs for them being idle?

    3. You can only watch one tv channel at a time. When did you last watch Juice TV on sky?

    Pauleastbay – you have simply swallowed it whole. It is I who think you are sad; wish I had known you 25 years ago (I would have sold you London Bridge)

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  78. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    And JamesS

    And when them pesky natives knew there place we all had to wear a white shirt to the clubrooms on Saturday night or you were a homo or when the only wine you could buy was syrup with alcohol in it and our piss was drunk from flagons and you drunk lots of them , you could give your missus a flick becuase it was always their fault – all truly signs of a grown up country.
    Like Nasska says we live in our times.

    Remember Austin Miitchell have the gall to live here and then write a book that pointed out we were’nt nothing special, the outrage the gnashing of teeth. FFS

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  79. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    JamesS

    “Graham Hart is white and not intending to rip off America.”

    Oh he’s white. Duh. Of course it’s different then. lol

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  80. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    @JamesS
    Graham Hart is white and not intending to rip off America.

    That is fucking gold and its only the 3rd day of the year.

    You’ve wandered off to loony ville I’ll feel like a bully if I carry on.

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  81. Viking2 (11,490 comments) says:

    The early 70’s was the start of the demise. England joined the EEC and in 1973 we had the first oil shock. That shock initself created a problen for NZ. We accumulated a current account deficit driven by oil consumption that was to last until three years ago when the Tui and Maari wells came into full production. Some 35 years and it will take a lot more years of our own production and export of oil products to rectify that imbalance.

    There was an interesting article in the last day or so about the relativity between gold and oil. Seems 2 grams of gold buys a barrell of oil and its remained relative since the early 70’s. Not sure where I saw it graphs and all.

    And today I was reading this which is also interesting. Makes sense and may well benefit NZ.

    By IAIN MURRAY AND JAMES C. BENNETT

    In 1952, then-U.S. Secretary of State Dean Acheson said that “Britain has lost an empire but has failed to find a role.” Sadly for Britain, it decided to renounce its longstanding global cultural, legal and philosophical links to North America and instead looked for that role in Europe. Despite its geographic proximity to Britain, the Continent is nevertheless home to a host of cultures, legal systems and governing philosophies very different from those of traditionally liberal Britain. The consequences from that bad choice have bedeviled Britain for decades.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204791104577110163558996698.html

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  82. JamesS (352 comments) says:

    Paul – do not engage in hypocrisy. If pesky natives knowing their place is a bad thing – which implies that does not happen today – was a bad thing and the situation today is a good thing, then get your daughter to put on a short skirt, makeup and walk around mangere town centre at midnight tonight and see what happens to her.

    No? not keen on the idea? I wonder why.

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  83. Scott Chris (6,155 comments) says:

    reid

    I don’t think feminists are orchestrating an insidious plot to subvert traditional society. Minority groups are simply becoming more aware of their democratic rights and lobbying power and are using this to influence the prevailing culture. Even white men and Christians are getting in on the act with groups advocating their special interests and sensitivities.

    I don’t have a problem with it really. And I can see why the Libra ad would be offensive to sensitive women and sensitive trans-sexuals and they have every right to kick up a fuss just as the Libra Company has the right to be offensive.

    edit: BTW, thanks for those links to the 80’s economic reforms. Interesting, but very light on detail.

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  84. Viking2 (11,490 comments) says:

    Sorry but not new age sensitive man am I. Get over yourselves and grow up. The world is a rough place.
    Even my wife thought the advert was OK. But then she is smarter than most of you new age wannabee’s.

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  85. Scott Chris (6,155 comments) says:

    Oh and reid, I thought the anecdote Lange related about his being told by the Yanks of a possible nuclear missile strike in order to put the shits up him was interesting. Hadn’t heard that one before.

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  86. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    V2

    ACHESON – by James Chace , a very good read, an under rated guy all round but the international power behind Harry S Truman

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  87. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    pretty sure my dad was paying about 67% tax in the early 80’s. fuck that!

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  88. Viking2 (11,490 comments) says:

    “TEACUP TAPE CASE DOES NOT INVOLVE ATTORNEY GENERAL” PETERS

    New Zealand First says the Attorney General cannot claim court costs from a free lance cameraman over the teacup tape court case because the case does not involve the government – just the National and Act parties.

    Rt. Hon Winston Peters says legal wires have been crossed by the case because it was mistakenly taken up by the government’s own legal system when it should have simply involved lawyers for John Key and John Banks.

    “This case happened during an election campaign when the National Party leader met an Act party candidate to stitch up a deal for the Epsom electorate. It had nothing to do with an affair of state or anything related to the office of prime minister.

    What has happened is that the National Party, acting for political purposes, is using taxpayer resources to have a fight with a private citizen.

    This is abuse of power and it is also illegal.

    Our advice to the cameraman is to ignore the Attorney General’s demand for court costs and to make a claim himself against John Key and John Banks, who in this matter are simply private citizens.” says Mr. Peters.

    Quite right.

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  89. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    In or out JamesS certainly got one bit of nostalgia spot on…..people being allowed to call a spade a spade. I pine for the days when you could say or write something without some thin skinned wanker having a hissy fit about it.

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  90. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Well Winnie knows all about using taxpayer resources and abusing power ,on that point he is quite right!!!!

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  91. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    A Secretary’s view of the corporate ladder:

    Chairman Of The Board – Leaps tall buildings in a single bound. Is more powerful than a speeding locomotive; faster than a speeding bullet. Walks on water. Gives policy to God.

    CEO – Leaps short buildings in a single bound. Is more powerful than a shunting engine; just as fast as a speeding bullet. Walks on water when the water is calm. Talks with God.

    Deputy CEO – Leaps short buildings with a running start and favorable winds. Is almost as powerful as a shunting engine; not quite as fast as a speeding bullet. Walks on water in an indoor swimming pool. Talks to God if special request is granted.

    Assistant CEO – Barely clears a Skyline garage. Loses tug of war with locomotive. Can fire a speeding bullet. Swims well. Is occasionally addressed by God.

    General Manager – Makes high marks on the wall when trying to leap buildings. Is run over by a locomotive. Can sometimes handle a gun without inflicting self-injury. Dog paddles. Talks to animals.

    Manager – Runs into buildings. Recognises locomotive two out of three times. Is not issued ammunition. Can’t stay afloat with a life preserver. Talks to walls.

    Trainee – Falls over doorsteps when trying to enter buildings. Says, “Look at the choo-choo.” Wets self with a water pistol. Plays in mud puddles. Mumbles to self.

    Secretary – Lifts buildings and walks under them. Kicks locomotives off the tracks. Catches speeding bullets in her teeth and eats them. Freezes water with single glance. She IS God.

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  92. reid (16,513 comments) says:

    I don’t think feminists are orchestrating an insidious plot to subvert traditional society.

    I know you don’t James. The only question is: are you right or wrong?

    Possibly one question which might help you see it although I doubt it is: why then does everything feminists insist upon subvert as in undermine the traditional role of the father and/or the mother in the traditional family unit?

    Yes, one understands in the feminist lexicon the “family unit” is a hated anachronistic object but assuming to normal people it was actually valuable, you name me one feminist advocated policy which has over the years strengthened said unit as opposed to weakened it.

    See James when you put aside the drop dead obvious camouflage it uses (“human rights”) feminism is nothing less than a naked war against us, society. Many pwogwessives wefuse to listen to this message, loud and apparent tho it is. Because of the cognitive dissonance it cweates when someone says it’s about human wights because that means, for a pwogwessive, logic, everything flies out the window. Nothing else matters.

    Aren’t they mental.

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  93. Viking2 (11,490 comments) says:

    dime (3,828) Says:
    January 3rd, 2012 at 7:33 pm

    pretty sure my dad was paying about 67% tax in the early 80′s. fuck that!

    More than likely. A rich prick ha. rates went right up to the 90% level. Which of course lawyers and accountants made sure they didn’t pay.

    Only way to buy a new car was to have oversea’s funds or know someone who did. Farmers got all the new cars of course and then sold them second hand for more than they cost new.
    Wanted a new machine for your plant. Get the import license first. If anything like it was made here then no chance.
    Not allowed to cart anything more than 40 miles by truck. Had to go on rail who promptly lost or had pilferred anything of value if it wasn’t damaged along the track.
    Need a new phone? Well 3 months wasn’t out of the way.
    Had a small SME amongst bigger SME’s. Well the bigger guys bowed to the unions and they both fucked over the small guy.

    Yep that was the good old days when men went to the pub at 3.30 and left at 6.30 carrying half gallon flagons of beer, drunk as skunks and home to the family full of luv.
    Drunk driving was normal.
    Few doctors, headmasters at colleges who beat the crap out of people to satisfy their screwed up lives.
    Yep that was fun.
    Unionists who ran gangs of enforcers. Evil shits as bad as any gang members.
    When Muldoon and the National Party had more controlls on everyday purchasing than they could control. RRP price schemes that eveyone know how to rort. yep, that was the progressive National Party.
    When it was more economical to make bread for pig food than to d3eliver it to the shops. (and that is true beleive me as I was involved in the bakery industry.) Bread sold for 7.5 pennies per loaf and cost 1 shilling and two pence to make. Subsidy paid to farmers to produce crappy wheat which they then forced the flour millers to make flour from and the poor old baker have to make good bread from rubbish flour. All to be self sufficient ,which only happened twice in 25 years.

    (which is why the bakers today don’t know how to make decent bread. They think good flour is all it takes. Ha).

    Yep NZ was a great place when you swam amoung the meatworks offal outfalls and the untreated sewerage around the harbours.
    When many roads were still single lane shingle with fords and single lane bridges if you were lucky. You used the roads with the sheep mobs and the cattle mobs going thru the middle of town to the sale yards. They were the lucky ones. The unlucky ones were crammed onto rail wagons and carted from siding to meat works. In the Wairarapa they were carted over the Rimutaka’s on the Fell engine line. Coal engines, 3 quarters of a ton of coal for the trip over the hill per engine. Up to 5 engines per train.

    When families were threatened with jail if they helped their striking relatives, offered them food, or any support at all.
    That was the National Govt. that was. Later they introduced a Minister of Labour named Bolger. Didn’t have a clue about business nor Labour and the relationships necessary for both to flourish. (still hasn’t) and neither do National. Only person who got close was Birch but even he made fundmental errors.

    Te Papa has a good show on currently covering all this that’s worth a visit.
    Yep that was NZ yesterday.

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  94. Viking2 (11,490 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay (1,751) Says:
    January 3rd, 2012 at 7:40 pm

    Well Winnie knows all about using taxpayer resources and abusing power ,on that point he is quite right!!!!

    So, Paul, which of these doesn’t know how to do the same.
    National, Labour, Greens, Mana,Maori,United Future, Progressives et al.

    I’m not cheering tor him but point out that they are all tarred with the same brush and National are as adept at rorts as anyone.

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  95. Viking2 (11,490 comments) says:

    nasska (2,428) Says:
    January 3rd, 2012 at 7:52 pm

    A Secretary’s view of the corporate ladder:

    A (Secretary’s) wifes view of the corporate ladder:

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  96. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    # Scott Chris (3,199) Says:
    January 3rd, 2012 at 5:49 pm

    Weihana

    re the Libra ad – for a feminist perspective, check out the hand mirror blog.

    http://thehandmirror.blogspot.com/

    ———————–

    Thanks for the perspective. Pity the blog is run by people who do not tolerate points of view that conflict with their own.

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  97. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    I tried to buy a new World Atlas for 2012, but no one has any.

    Apparently the printers are waiting to see if they need to include Iran.

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  98. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    reid,


    “why then does everything feminists insist upon subvert as in undermine the traditional role of the father and/or the mother in the traditional family unit?”

    Aside from obvious biological roles, what is the traditional role of the father and mother in a family unit? Are you referring to outdated notions of women staying home to raise the kids while the mans goes out to work?

    If so, suppose for a moment that the woman in the relationship has an earning potential to generate a six or seven figure income, while the father only has the earning potential of an average wage. Should the mother stay home forcing the family to live on an average wage and foregoing the benefits of an above average income?

    If this is not what you are talking about then what are you talking about? What are these roles and what do they involve and how are feminists undermining it?

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  99. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    Well worth a read and share…

    More and more people are realising that the promise of happiness propagated in early industrialised countries can no longer be kept, and for two reasons. Firstly, their material wealth is no longer increasing, and secondly, greater material wealth does not necessarily mean greater satisfaction – not to mention greater happiness.

    http://www.okeanos-foundation.org/wordpressblog/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Memorandum-Altering-attitudes.pdf

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  100. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Reid @ 12.12
    Thankyou for posting those links.

    That series ( which seemed to be fair and neutral re political bias) should be compulsory
    viewing for all 6th form and above students.

    How sad that for reasons we can speculate upon ‘History’ has now been demeaned
    by our educationalists.

    Why that is, is just as much a modern enigma as to why the Fourth Estate is now
    so perverted in favour of the left.

    Where did it go wrong ?
    Can it come back into balance ?

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  101. Viking2 (11,490 comments) says:

    The All Black plane unveiled

    Watch as All Black players Kieran Read and Andy Ellis help to unveil the new Boeing 777-300ER in Seattle. Video: Air NZ

    The Australian3 January 2012

    ANOTHER reminder of Kiwi rugby supremacy has taken to the skies as Air New Zealand’s newest Boeing 777-300ER became the world’s largest commercially operated aircraft painted all black.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/air-new-zealand-launches-black-planes-to-celebrate-the-nations-rugby-supremacy/story-e6frg95x-1226235477300

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  102. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    and it might be worth remembering that without Pasifikan muscle and brains, the all blacks would be pooh…

    :)

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  103. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    Why that is, is just as much a modern enigma as to why the Fourth Estate is now
    so perverted in favour of the left.

    eh ???…dunno where you live, but here in NZ it’s the nutjob apologists that run the MSM and with that control the sheeples consciousness.

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  104. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    V2 @8.11

    So, Paul, which of these doesn’t know how to do the same…………………….

    but its only the drunken dwarf whose arrogant enough to bend you over without even the hint of a kiss.

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  105. big bruv (13,934 comments) says:

    So…the question seems to be this.

    Would we rather live in NZ as it was pre 84 or would we rather live as it is now?

    There are some things that I would like to have back but I would not give up any of the freedoms we have today in exchange.

    I like being able to purchase quality products, I like being in a society where the unions have no or very little say and I like that I can be rewarded for hard work.

    I also like the fact (and it is a fact) that in todays society (far more than it was back then) everybody…and yes I do mean everybody, has a chance to make it.

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  106. reid (16,513 comments) says:

    Aside from obvious biological roles, what is the traditional role of the father and mother in a family unit? Are you referring to outdated notions of women staying home to raise the kids while the mans goes out to work?

    Weihana here’s what I’ve observed from living life. Men and women are in fact built differently. We operate from different paradigms, we think about things differently and have different needs because different things actualise us as people.

    The first hurdle for pwogwessives is to acknowledge this is a fact. For example, women nurture children and presumably since this has happened since time immemorial this nurtures them – having the love of their children and the discharge of that fundamental responsibility. Fathers do this too but its not in the same way.

    Now pwogwessives Weihana seem to imagine that acknowledging that is somehow wong. It’s cwuel and inhuman to acknowledge something like that.

    Aren’t they mental.

    I don’t really think its necessary to spell out the “traditional roles” of a mother and father in a family Weihana, normally we all pick it up as we go along. I’m sure you’ll get the hang of it one day.

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  107. big bruv (13,934 comments) says:

    “Pasifikan”

    There is that ‘word’ again.

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  108. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    Cafe au lait with Haemorrhoids

    The Pasifikan muscle might be okay but I’ve seen better brains on a plastic tray wrapped in clingfoil at the local butcher’s.

    I blame the culture of cannibalism that was endemic before we introduced civilisation to your lot.

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  109. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Totally agree Bruv

    Its not perfect but ………………

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  110. Scott Chris (6,155 comments) says:

    reid says:- “why then does everything feminists insist upon subvert as in undermine the traditional role of the father and/or the mother in the traditional family unit?”

    Don’t you think that’s fair? Aren’t women equally capable of leading a family as men? For the most part, families are pretty much the same as they have always been albeit on a smaller scale. Mum, Dad, Kids and Rellies. The only difference is that the father is no longer automatically head of the household and marriages/partnerships aren’t as cohesive as they once were.

    And you have a choice. No doubt you married a traditional gal because you suited eachother. What other families do is their business surely?

    The other thing of course is the correlation between women’s empowerment and a falling birthrate. Feminism may well have saved us from generating completely unsustainable population numbers. Nah. Feminism is a good thing.

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  111. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    I blame the culture of cannibalism that was endemic before we introduced civilisation to your lot.

    and hows that tame and civilised native population working out for ya ?

    yeah, me neither.

    time to evolve or die.

    read that link i posted and get on board or just crawl under a rock and die quietly.

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  112. reid (16,513 comments) says:

    Don’t you think that’s fair? Aren’t women equally capable of leading a family as men?

    Not if there are boys in that family Scott. Sorry, they’re just not. As a species. Sometimes a woman will do a much much better job of it than the available man/men but this is because Scott because that/those guy(s) in that case weren’t/arent men they’re immature fools, probably a pwogwessive to boot, so of course it’s a major fail. It has to be. It can’t be different. That’s what the Mayan Calendar said Scott: pwogwessives will fuck it up, all the time, no matter what. What else does one expect?

    Aren’t they hopeless?

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  113. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    reid,

    I agree, in a general sense, that men and women tend to possess different attributes that have evolved for one reason or another. But I don’t see this as inconsistent with feminism. Feminism, for me, is the idea that women shouldn’t be prejudiced by antiquated notions of their “role” before they’ve had an opportunity to prove themselves in whatever role they choose for themselves. Where feminism fails, in my view, is when they try to look at statistics and assume something is going wrong because the statistics aren’t equal.

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  114. Viking2 (11,490 comments) says:

    Recession looms in Singapore
    January 3, 2012 – 3:28PM

    Singapore’s trade-driven economy contracted in the last three months of 2011, signalling it may slip into a technical recession as a slump in manufacturing output and slowdown in external demand hurt exports.

    The contraction, however, is unlikely to bring about a change in monetary policy which leans towards a gradual and modest appreciation of the Singapore dollar, most economists said.

    Advance estimates showed gross domestic product (GDP) fell 4.9 per cent in the fourth quarter compared with the July-September period on a seasonally adjusted, annualised rate.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/business/world-business/recession-looms-in-singapore-20120103-1pj9a.html#ixzz1iNkgV3a0

    http://www.theage.com.au/business/world-business/recession-looms-in-singapore-20120103-1pj9a.html

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  115. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    reid,

    You appear to be committing the same fallacy as the feminists outraged over the suggestion that transgender people are not real women. A man is a man reid, by virtue of his genetics. That he is a liberal or a “pwogwessive” makes no difference, he is still a man.

    I think you made a very good point that couples work these things out as they go along and just because a certain arrangement works with you is no reason to condemn or criticize others who make different arrangements that work for them.

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  116. calendar girl (1,243 comments) says:

    Delicious irony from JamesS @ 6:15: “Schools teaching pupils to read, right and spell (fancy that!)”

    “Educated” since 1983 I presume, JamesS.

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  117. Scott Chris (6,155 comments) says:

    Weihana says:- “Where feminism fails, in my view, is when they try to look at statistics and assume something is going wrong because the statistics aren’t equal.”

    I don’t agree. Provided your analysis of the stats isn’t biased, there is no reason why you can’t use stats to identify disparities between what women actually earn for instance, and what they should earn.

    If a set of stats show that a man and a woman of equal experience and equal qualifications and equal proficiency are not earning the same wage, then that would suggest to me that something is wrong and needs addressing. (assuming an egalitarian premise)

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  118. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,903 comments) says:

    BB@9:01

    Of course they are not far removed from Mexicans – in so many ways.

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  119. nasska (11,580 comments) says:

    pollywog

    A sixty nine page PDF file for a link? I’ve read the guts of the file & I would conclude that it was an “Introduction to Green Mind Control, 101.”

    What a load of shit. Even if one embraced the practise of tree hugging one couldn’t but be put off by the arrogant, we know best, communist, freedom hating theme of the whole document.

    Propaganda.

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  120. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    Scott Chris,


    “If a set of stats show that a man and a woman of equal experience and equal qualifications and equal proficiency are not earning the same wage”

    If that criteria is met then I agree with you. Do such statistics exist which show women are paid less than men despite equal experience, qualifications and proficiency?

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  121. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    I’ve read the guts of the file & I would conclude that it was an “Introduction to Green Mind Control, 101.”

    What a load of shit. Even if one embraced the practise of tree hugging one couldn’t but be put off by the arrogant, we know best, communist, freedom hating theme of the whole document.

    Propaganda.

    propaganda for what…a more co operative and sustainable society with less, but more relevent government ?

    yeah cos that’s just fucking evil and subversive eh ?…jeez, you’re one truly damaged individual!

    That it reaffirmed your worldview i assume is a generational thing. Maintain the status quo, nothing is wrong, keep calm and carry on. Everyone should aspire to be rich and buy as much shit as they think will make them happy.

    That’s fine, if you dont want to evolve i’m sweet with that, just don’t fucken get in the way of others that do.

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  122. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Meanwhile, misogynists and racists and the narrow minded, think on this:

    Obama has just signed into law a bill authourising the US military to arrest anyone, anywhere, anytime, with the only justification that it suspects terrorism may be afoot.

    Obama issued a statement with the bill to say he wouldn’t detain US citizens under this bill (although he has already authourised the murder of US citizens outside the US, duly carried out) but there is no restriction on either Obama changing his mind or the next president (probably Mitt Romney), running with it.

    Just as thousands of US marines, drones and all, are set to descend on Australia!

    Oh fuck.

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  123. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    Pollywog,

    If you’re referring to the “altering attitudes” memo, the phrase I kept hearing in my head while reading was “be happy with what you’ve got”. Those of us who live in the west are among the richest in the world, even when considered relatively poor by comparison to others in our own society. I do not expect those in emerging economies such as China and India not to hope for the same prosperity that we presently enjoy and this will of course put more pressure on natural resources. But this does not mean we need to reject material wealth as a measure of happiness or something worthy of pursuit. What we need to do is figure out how we can make use of our resources in a sustainable way and by getting governments to invest more in basic scientific research which underpins all major advancements in modern society. We need not reject consumerism and we should not reject it because it is what motivates us all to dream of better things and to work towards the goals that we set for ourselves.

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  124. Fletch (6,410 comments) says:

    re: the Libra thing – I posted on handmirror, but had it deleted, probably because of transphobia (lol, yes, “transphobia” – funny how liberals make up these words).
    Anyway, the below is what I posted originally

    I don’t mean to offend the transgender community either, but dressing up as a woman does not make you female. A huge part of what it means to be female is the ability to bear and nurture offspring. That is one of the things that make male and female different and which is reflected in the anatomy of the female, and yes, having a period is a sign or symptom of same. It’s part of the identity of being female.

    It doesn’t make women better or worse than men, but they are different: men cannot bear children, and having surgery to change your ‘parts’ will not give you a womb or ovaries. Perhaps one of the reasons that the ad caused offence is that it pokes fun at the differences that are real, and perhaps it’s something that the transgendered feel touchy about – the fact they they can never identify fully as being female, nor experience being female past the surface veneer of the look and body parts. You can remove a cold water faucet and replace it with one that says ‘Hot’, but behind the wall the plumbing is the same and you’ll still only get cold water when you turn on the tap.

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  125. dime (9,980 comments) says:

    luc – only assholes get detained like that so dont worry about it.. oh wait

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  126. Keeping Stock (10,342 comments) says:

    @Viking2 – 7.33pm- having read the decision today in the case of Ambrose vs The Attorney-General, it’s fair to say that Peters is talking through his arsehole again. Ambrose took a case against the A-G and lost; all power to the Crown for applying to recover the costs.

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  127. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Fletch

    I would have thought “transgenderphobia” would be more accurate, or maybe “trannyphobia,” and, although you may not know this, words get invented all the time.

    Your post was a clearcut case of whateverphobia you like!

    Are you scared of the dark?

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  128. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    But this does not mean we need to reject material wealth as a measure of happiness or something worthy of pursuit

    and yet all the virtues we hold dear were exhibited by people who advocated for less material wealth as a means to happiness and fulfilment.

    rich man through the eye of a needle and finding the middle way through noble suffering is mostly what i get from that memo. That and wasteful gov’t subsidies propping up failed ideology just to maintain the status quo at all costs.

    As it relates to NZ as opposed to Germany, it’s fairly obvious John Key doesn’t want to deal with any of the future shit. He’d rather pass the buck to the next generation and try to secure his continued revenue stream in a diminishing market by selling off powercos to himself and his mates while subsidising back assward industries like roads of national significance and irrigating cow fields.

    All the while not giving a fuck about the social and environmental cost. Aspire to be rich like him or be miserable in poverty and if you point out the inequality you’re just envious…yeah yeah play us another tune eh ? that ones fucking tedious.

    I think in the long term history will judge Key as a gutless coward who could shoulda woulda but lacked the balls to. Hopefully Shearer with his altruistic backstory and clean, green and clever credo might be more courageous…

    …we’ll see

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  129. MT_Tinman (3,204 comments) says:

    V2, 20:07, you started off quite well then, about the time men went to the pub at 15:30 (instead of the more honest 17:00) and left, pissed at 18:15 to walk/cycle home (driving was for the rich) you lost it big time.

    The rest, in fact, is pure crap!

    Big Bruv, I agree, I’d rather live now than then – no matter when “then” is – although being a teenager in the mid-late 60s was, looking back, fucking great.

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  130. Scott Chris (6,155 comments) says:

    Weihana says:- “Do such statistics exist which show women are paid less than men despite equal experience, qualifications and proficiency?”

    Yes. Here’s one (bit old) source:

    :arrow: “Using Current Population Survey (CPS) data for 1979 and 1995 and controlling for education, experience, personal characteristics, parental status, city and region, occupation, industry, government employment, and part-time status, Yale University economics professor Joseph G. Altonji and the United States Secretary of Commerce Rebecca M. Blank found that only about 27% of the gender wage gap in each year is explained by differences in such characteristics.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80%93female_income_disparity_in_the_United_States
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Fletch

    Yes, your hand mirror post was quite innocuous imo. They have a very different cultural outlook there compared to your average schmo, and you have to be very careful not to come across as patronizing or intolerant. They will not tolerate intolerance (ironically), so I disagree with you that they are liberal.

    When I post there it feels a little like a Japanese tea ceremony. You’re never quite sure which protocol you might have breached….

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  131. Falafulu Fisi (2,179 comments) says:

    Cha said…
    Turing worked as part of the team that cracked the Enigma code at Bletchley Park, and went on to help create the world’s first modern computer.

    Great work there from Turing, but the work of all-round computer-scientist/physicist/mathematician/economist Joh von Neumann was crucial in winning WW2 with his involvement in the Manhattan Project. The monte-carlo algorithm which is pervasive in science/engineering of today was a code-name used by Prof. Neumann & members of the Manhattan Project because of the top secret nature of their work. He (von Neumann) was also instrumental in the design of the world’s first modern computer.

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  132. Fletch (6,410 comments) says:

    Here are some snippets by Robery R Reilly that really put in a nutshell the reasons for our culture of vice (italics mine) –

    In The Ethics Aristotle wrote, “men start revolutionary changes for reasons connected with their private lives.” This is also true when revolutionary changes are cultural. What might these “private” reasons be, and why do they become public in the form of revolutionary changes? The answer to these questions lies in the intimate psychology of moral failure.

    For any individual, moral failure is hard to live with because of the rebuke of conscience. Habitual moral failure, what used to be called vice, can be lived with only by obliterating conscience through rationalization. When we rationalize, we convince ourselves that heretofore forbidden desires are permissible. We advance the reality of the desires over the reality of the moral order to which the desires should be subordinated. In our minds we replace the reality of moral order with something more congenial to the activity we are excusing. In short, we assert that bad is good.

    [...]

    Most people recover from their rationalizations when remorse and reality set back in. But when morally disordered acts become the defining centerpiece of one’s life, vice can permanently pervert reason. Entrenched moral aberrations then impel people to rationalize vice not only to themselves but to others as well. Thus rationalizations become an engine for revolutionary change that will affect society as a whole.

    The power of rationalization drives the culture war, gives it its particular revolutionary character, and makes its advocates indefatigable. It may draw its energy from desperation, but it is all the more powerful for that. Since failed rationalization means self-recrimination, it must be avoided at all cost. For this reason, the differences over which the culture war is being fought are not subject to reasoned discourse. Persons protecting themselves by rationalizing are interested not in finding the truth, but in maintaining the illusion that allows them to continue their behavior. For them to succeed in this, everyone must accede to their rationalization. This is why revolutionary change is required. The necessity for self-justification requires the complicity of the whole culture. Holdouts cannot be tolerated because they are potential rebukes. The self-hatred, anger, and guilt that a person possessed of a functioning conscience would normally feel from doing wrong are redirected by the rationalization and projected upon society as a whole (if the society is healthy), or upon those in society who do not accept the rationalization.

    The homosexual movement’s rationalization is far more widely advanced in its claims. According to Jeffrey Levi, former executive director for the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, “We (homosexuals)_ are no longer seeking just a right to privacy and a right to protection from wrong. We have a right – as heterosexuals have already – to see government and society affirm our lives.” Since only the act of sodomy differentiates an active homosexual from a heterosexual, homosexuals want “government and society” to affirm that sodomy is morally equivalent to the marital act. “Coming out of the closet” can only mean an assent on the level of moral principle to what would otherwise be considered morally disordered.

    And so it must be. If you are going to center your public life on the private act of sodomy, you had better transform sodomy into a highly moral act. If sodomy is a moral disorder, it cannot be legitimately advanced on the legal or civil level. On the other hand, if it is a highly moral act, it should serve as the basis for marriage, family (adoption), and community. As a moral act, sodomy should be normative. If it is normative, it should be taught in our schools as a standard. In fact, homosexuality should be hieratic: active homosexuals should be ordained as priests. All of this is happening. It was predictable. The homosexual cause moved naturally from a plea for tolerance to cultural conquest. How successful that conquest has been can be seen in the poverty of the rhetoric of its opponents. In supporting the Defense of Marriage Act, the best one congressman could do was to say, “America is not yet ready for homosexual marriage,” as if we simply need a decent interval to adjust ourselves to its inevitable arrival.

    Whole Article – http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/ReillyCultureVice.php

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  133. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    Big Bruv, I agree, I’d rather live now than then – no matter when “then” is – although being a teenager in the mid-late 60s was, looking back, fucking great.

    and what sort of future would you have your kids live in ?

    …cos thats what we need to be proactively working towards, not blindly reacting to, lurching from crisis to crisis, either manufactured or real.

    Where, beyond the empty rhetoric is John Key’s plan to enact his vision of a brighter future ? Exactly what is the vision and the brighter future ?

    Was it just lip service being paid to consumers to buy votes with and maintain the status quo ? Not so much about kicking the tyres, as stopping the wheels from falling off while he’s in the driver’s seat ?

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  134. MT_Tinman (3,204 comments) says:

    FF, I find your assertion that the Manhattan Project was crucial to winning WWII surprising given that two of the three Axis powers had already surrendered when the “A” bomb was first employed and most historians of the time admit that Japan was ready to follow suit.

    The bomb, the result of the Manhattan Project, may have accelerated Japan’s surrender but “crucial” to that surrender it wasn’t.

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  135. Falafulu Fisi (2,179 comments) says:

    Weihana asked? “Do such statistics exist which show women are paid less than men despite equal experience, qualifications and proficiency?”

    Are you asking for a survey or a peer review analysis? You know the difference, don’t you? If you mean a survey, then how can you trust non-rigorous survey? If you mean peer review, then I thought you don’t need one as you clearly stated here from GD thread of 14th Dec, 2011? Here is what you said.

    Falafulu asked Weihana…
    So, do you have a pointer to any publication/s which states clearly what you said above ? Again, did that assertion of yours just materialized in your head from thin air or not?

    Weihana replied to Falafulu…
    I do not require a citation in order to make an argument which is justified by its own logical construction and based on common observation.

    Why do you require a citation for? Why do you need to find out if there is statistics exist which show women are paid less ? I thought that all you need is some logical construction based on your common sense as you replied to me on the GD of 14th, Dec? Why not use that common sense of yours then, rather than asking for statistics? I thought that common sense says that men always get more pay than women with the same experience?

    Ding Dong?

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  136. Fletch (6,410 comments) says:

    Tinman, it would have taken the lives of many, many Allied soldiers (some say up to half a million) to get the same result.

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  137. Griff (7,818 comments) says:

    There is more opportunity now for woman woman have made an impact at all levels in this country
    NZ has always been progressive in this regard There are no longer gender specific rolls. My mechanic is a chick!
    It is not unknown for men to be in relationships were the woman is the sole or main breed winner.
    This cultural shift has made feminism obsolete for most.
    This leaves only man hating lesbians who identify as feminists
    The lower casts still have a sexist viewpoint as in a woman is an object to posses.
    For the rest the cost of separation reinforces that woman are more than chattels.

    reid

    You poor old conservative has the whole world passed you by.
    left you stranded in the rest home of obsolescence

    We have no desire to fit back into your world

    We have all found nice comfortable holes..
    Not just forced to fit into your square one.

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  138. Fletch (6,410 comments) says:

    Jason Mattera has a bit about this “gender pay difference” in his book, ‘Obama Zombies: How the Liberal Machine Brainwashed My Generation’
    (Link to below excerpt on Google Books – http://bit.ly/rVQC5o )

    I like the bit about how Obama is complaining that women don’t get equal pay, yet it is McCain who pays his women more than Obama does…lol

    The reasons for pay difference make perfect sense.

    ps, in the text B.H.O stands for Barrack Hussien Obama

    SO NOW WE move on to the second economic lie the liberal machine uses to hypnotize future Obama Zombies–the evil, nefarious “wage gap” between men and women. Have you heard that women make seventy-seven cents to every dollar a man makes? It’s been the liberal line for a while now. During the election, B.H.O. ran a TV ad in battleground states specifically targeting women, hyping up the inequity in pay between the sexes. The ad starts off by saying how many women work to support their families but are paid only seventy-seven cents to the dollar of their male counterparts. In the background we see women in professional attire and women in hard hats. The ad then accuses John McCain of not understanding our economy since he opposed a law that guaranteed equal pay for equal work.

    While on the stump in New Mexico, B.H.O. said this:

    The choice could not be clearer. It starts with equal pay. Sixty-two percent of working women in America earn half or more of their family’s income. But women still earn 77 cents for every dollar earned by men in 2008. You’d think that Washington would be united in its determination to fight for equal pay.

    So, are women really paid less than men? Yes, it is true that men tend to earn more than women, but don’t assume it’s gender discrimination. Let’s walk through a scenario: If a business could really get the same quality of work from women for the same job at such a discounted rate, why wouldn’t employers hire all women? It would be bad business to keep all men on hand. The smart employers would drop their men and swoop up all the women for a discounted price. There’s no way other businesses could compete. So perhaps there are other differences that account for the pay gap between men and women.

    Cait Murphy, an editor at Fortune, blew the phony wage gap myth out of the water, noting that men and women get paid differently because they’re engaging in different lifestyle choices that affect pay scales. Murphy, who is a woman, cited peer- reviewed research done by another woman, June O’Neill, an economist who served as director of the Congressional Budget Office under Bill Clinton.As Murphy writes, “What [O'Neill] found was that women are much more likely over the course of their lives to cut back their hours or quit work altogether than men, for issues involving the family.”11

    Women’s lifestyle choices matter when it comes to full-time employment because “you go part-time or take years out of the labor force, that has an effect on earnings down the line, due to loss of seniority or missed promotions.”It has nothing to do with sexism. Murphy argues that “of women aged 25-44 with young children, more than a third were out of the labor force; of those women who did have jobs, 30% worked part-time.” Again, this has considerable effects when one is moving in and out of the labor force, as many wages take into account seniority of service. Moreover, getting promotions is often a function of years served and experience gained.”All told,” says Murphy, “women are more than twice as likely to work part-time as men and over the course of their lifetimes, work outside the home for 40% fewer years than men. That accounts for a significant chunk of the pay gap.”But that’s not all. There’s also something, um, a bit more understated, but very important in determining wage factors. Murphy continues:

    Despite the many advances the women’s movement has brought the U.S., what it hasn’t done, thank heavens, is make men and women the same. The simple fact is–and there is nothing nasty or conspiratorial about it–the sexes continue to choose different avenues of study and different types of jobs.Here’s an illustrative example. The college majors with the top starting salaries, according to the National Association of Colleges and Employers, are: chemical engineering (almost $60,000), computer engineering, electrical engineering, industrial engineering, mechanical engineering. Men make up about 80% of engineering majors. Women predominate among liberal arts majors–whose salaries start at a little morethan $30,000. Putting it all together . . . these differences–in choice of work, years in the workforce, and hours of work–could account for as much as 97.5% of the differences in pay between men and women.

    Other differences? Men are more likely to work more hours than women; men are more likely to take hazardous jobs than women are, which is why more men are truck drivers, firefighters, police officers, construction workers, flight engineers, and coal miners than are women. And guess what? Dangerous jobs equal higher pay than, say, secretarial jobs. Again, it’s all about choices.Here’s what the liberal machine will never tell its dronelike youth Zombies: The “pay gap” for women shrinks to ninety-eight cents for every dollar earned by men, after factoring in work experience, education, and occupation.12 And women in their twenties in big cities, including New York and Dallas, are making nearly 20 percent more than men in their twenties.13

    You go, girls! In some categories, one researcher found, the starting salaries for women as investment bankers and dietitians, for instance, were considerably higher than men’s.14 Is there actual discrimination in some cases? I’m sure that occurs. But the beauty of the free market is that the company that discriminates for the sake of discrimination will be bad-mouthed and the wronged employee can also go to a competitor. Moreover, the employee can sue.But here’s the grandest irony of all this leftist silliness. Did you know that while B.H.O. was a United States senator he paid his female staffers less than his male ones? Obama’s female employees made on average seventy-eight cents for every dollar a man earned. In real numbers, women brought home an average salary of $44,953.21, which was $12,472 less than the $57,425 average salary that the then-senator paid men. It gets better. McCain’s female staffers not only earned 24 percent more on average than Obama’s gals, but they also earned more than McCain’s male employees.15

    Were the women less qualified in Obama’s office than the men? I have no clue. Whatever the reason, McCain closed the “gender gap” without the force of government.Oh, and here’s another inconvenient truth: women’s wages grew more during conservative administrations than liberal ones. In fact, the administrations of Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and George W. Bush had higher “labor market progress for women” compared to the administrations of Clinton and Carter. For instance, women’s “annual wage growth relative to men’s” for the Reagan administration was 1.6 percent, compared to 0.21 percent for Clinton.16Moral of the story? Liberals’ economic lies have lobotomized my generation

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  139. Falafulu Fisi (2,179 comments) says:

    Tinman, perhaps the Manhattan project was vital for the final stage of the war but not crucial.

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  140. bereal (3,137 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen,

    or one of the very worstest sickestism ones of all,
    ‘Nudistismophobia’

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  141. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    Scott chris,

    “Using Current Population Survey (CPS) data for 1979 and 1995 and controlling for education, experience, personal characteristics, parental status, city and region, occupation, industry, government employment, and part-time status, Yale University economics professor Joseph G. Altonji and the United States Secretary of Commerce Rebecca M. Blank found that only about 27% of the gender wage gap in each year is explained by differences in such characteristics.”

    Notwithstanding that you have provided the statistics i asked for, i still have a problem with the assumption that the unexplained gap is discrimination that can be addressed by government. I suspect the biological differences between the genders is not limited to sport. The egalitarian premise seems flawed to me though i still accept discrimination occurs and can explain the gap to some extent.

    I agree that discrimination occurs, but i dont believe the differences between the genders is limited to sport and physical activities. I agree with reid’s premise that there are other fundamental biological differences that even influence how we think and therefore a statistical average may reflect these intrinsic differences. Given the traditional evolutionary role of men as hunters and providers of income for their family, tribe etc it should not be surprising that they display an advantage in a competitive market.

    Even if the unexplained gap was all discrimintion i’m not sure what more the government could do to curb it especially if it’s unintentional discrimination

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  142. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    Pollywog,

    All the while not giving a fuck about the social and environmental cost. Aspire to be rich like him or be miserable in poverty and if you point out the inequality you’re just envious…yeah yeah play us another tune eh ? that ones fucking tedious.

    On the one hand you talk of being happy living with less and then you complain about poverty and inequality. The impoverished of the world are not going to live in prosperity unless they develop their economies and use natural resources in the process. Rich westerners consuming less is not going to make them richer and it’s not going to make westerners better off either.

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  143. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    Falafulu,

    Why do you require a citation for? Why do you need to find out if there is statistics exist which show women are paid less ? I thought that all you need is some logical construction based on your common sense as you replied to me on the GD of 14th, Dec? Why not use that common sense of yours then, rather than asking for statistics? I thought that common sense says that men always get more pay than women with the same experience?

    The issue was whether the pay gap was explained by matters that deserve being addressed. The wage gap is a common observation, its precise causes are debateable.

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  144. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    Fletch,

    Jason Mattera… in his book, ‘Obama Zombies: How the Liberal Machine Brainwashed My Generation’

    Lovely title. A man after Ann Coulter’s own heart.

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  145. big bruv (13,934 comments) says:

    “Lovely title. A man after Ann Coulter’s own heart.”

    Coulter is a lady who I find bloody hard to take seriously.

    Her debating style seems to consist of abuse references to the sky fairy, I just cannot take anybody seriously who thinks that God should have a major part in our education system and that the bible is an integral part of government.

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  146. Viking2 (11,490 comments) says:

    MT_Tinman (1,631) Says:
    January 3rd, 2012 at 11:09 pm

    V2, 20:07, you started off quite well then, about the time men went to the pub at 15:30 (instead of the more honest 17:00) and left, pissed at 18:15 to walk/cycle home (driving was for the rich) you lost it big time.

    Ah no, many early start workers finished at 3 pm and headed for the pub.

    The rest, in fact, is pure crap!

    Whatever you beleive will always be right in your head. That doesn’t make it right or true.
    Everything I said is exactly correct and if you want to bother doing some research you will find it so.

    But I don’t expect you will. That would entail you having to correct your attitudes and swallow your pride and apologise for being so ignorant.

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  147. Viking2 (11,490 comments) says:

    Lost a digital camera?
    Here’s the place to look.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/gadgets/6199363/Snapped-camera-thieves-meet-their-match

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  148. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    The impoverished of the world are not going to live in prosperity unless they develop their economies and use natural resources in the process. Rich westerners consuming less is not going to make them richer and it’s not going to make westerners better off either.

    it’s more about redefining propserity so it becomes measured less by rich western standards that even the west can’t maintain anymore, and more by the collective well being of society as a global whole.

    i do believe consuming less will make one happier and by that, better off.

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  149. Scott Chris (6,155 comments) says:

    Weihana says:- “Even if the unexplained gap was all discrimintion i’m not sure what more the government could do to curb it especially if it’s unintentional discrimination”

    Awareness is probably the most important thing. Most OECD countries have anti-discrimination legislation in place, but its effectiveness relies on the employee knowing what their entitlement is. Men seem better at knowing their market worth and more forthright in asking for it.

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  150. Scott Chris (6,155 comments) says:

    Anne Coulter’s personality type is summed up nicely in this extract:

    :arrow: “During an interview by host Bob McKeown, Coulter said, “Canada used to be…one of our most…most loyal friends, and vice versa. I mean, Canada sent troops to Vietnam.” McKeown contradicted her with, “No, actually Canada did not send troops to Vietnam.”

    Coulter justified her statement by referring to the thousands of Canadians who served in the American armed forces during the Vietnam era, either because they volunteered or because they were living in the USA during the war years and got drafted.”

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  151. Elaycee (4,393 comments) says:

    V2 says: “When Muldoon and the National Party had more controlls on everyday purchasing than they could control. RRP price schemes that eveyone know how to rort. yep, that was the progressive National Party.” And then: “Everything I said is exactly correct and if you want to bother doing some research you will find it so.”

    Actually, not quite. Warren Freer (Minister of Trade and Industry in the 1974 Labour Government) introduced the MRP (Maximum Retail Price scheme – including the compulsion to place a MRP shield on all NZ manufactured items), rather than National.

    Nowadays we just have ‘Recommended Retail Prices’ rather than maximums.

    FIFY

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  152. Fletch (6,410 comments) says:

    I just cannot take anybody seriously who thinks that God should have a major part in our education system and that the bible is an integral part of government.

    Um, Western (Judeo Christian) government is based on the precepts of the Bible. You only have to look at the Founding Fathers in America.

    eg,

    John Adams
    2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

    “Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God … What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be.”
    –Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

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  153. Fletch (6,410 comments) says:

    ps, anyone wanting to know where Law (as we know it) came from should read Law and Revolution: The Formation of the Western Legal Tradition, by Harold J Berman. It is the go to book.

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  154. pollywog (1,153 comments) says:

    I just cannot take anybody seriously who thinks that God should have a major part in our education system and that the bible is an integral part of government.

    I cannot take anyone seriously who doesn’t, because to not acknowledge God in education and gov’t is to throw away the history of education and government.

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  155. Weihana (4,557 comments) says:

    Scott chris,


    Coulter justified her statement by referring to the thousands of Canadians who served in the American armed forces during the Vietnam era, either because they volunteered or because they were living in the USA during the war years and got drafted.”

    Reminds me of when she claimed that the US bombed egypt during last year’s revolution when she appeared on bill maher’s real time.

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