Why we need education reform also

March 23rd, 2013 at 9:27 am by David Farrar

Narelle Henson at Stuff reports:

Frustrated bosses say they can’t find suitable workers for even the most basic of labouring jobs despite the high unemployment rate, as they deal with people who turn up drunk if they come to work at all. …

But despite the many jobless, employers say continual absenteeism, substance abuse and poor work ethic appear to be making a lot of them unemployable.

Dave Connell, vice-president of the New Zealand Contractors Federation and managing director of Connell Construction, who is juggling operations in the Waikato and for the Christchurch rebuild, said 100 people responded to a Trade Me job advertisement for a junior construction role, but not one was suitable to hire.

“We are letting seven people go for every one we keep,” he said.

“I have had some people last half a day and walk off the job with $800 worth of [work] gear on them; one guy had six sick days in two weeks, and we have had issues with physicality too.”

Mr Connell said he was desperate to fill positions, but could not find anyone with the right attitude.

It will take many years to fix these problems.

The first is we need to stop people leaving school with inadequate literacy and numeracy skills.

The second is we need to install a work ethic in people from their teenage years. That is why I don’t support a for under 18s, and why I support .

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70 Responses to “Why we need education reform also”

  1. Redbaiter (6,478 comments) says:

    “The first is we need to stop people leaving school with inadequate literacy and numeracy skills.”

    No, the first thing you need to do is realise this is not a problem that can be fixed by more government. Or any kind of government. Especially more immersion in a government education system that because of its political corruption is a large part of the overall problem.

    NZ has been destroyed socially, and you need to ask yourself why this has happened and what has caused this.

    There is an organised political campaign in the west to tear down the old and replace it with the new “Progressive” model.

    Unfortunately Mr. Farrar, you and the National Party are too frequently found to be pushing ideas that stem from this campaign.

    Today you are wilfully ignoring what Dave Connell is really saying, and trying to pass it off as an education problem.

    It is not an education problem. It is a social problem, and it is a social problem caused by NZ’s turn down the road of Progressive politics.

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  2. Brian Harmer (686 comments) says:

    I am not persuaded that these are issues of numeracy or literacy. They are problems of values. The people described have a misguided sense of entitlement. They have no respect for the idea that property is earned, and that if they don’t have something, it’s ok to “acquire” it by whatever means. Personal integrity is absent from their world view. How do we rememdy that gap in their upbringing? To be honest, I doubt that remedial action will work on people like this, but we ought to be looking for ways to prevent more young people growing up like them.

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  3. flipper (3,269 comments) says:

    David,
    Can we clear on the minimum wage business? Do you support one?

    If you do NOT, i agree with you. If you do, but include anyone working, then I disagree.

    The living wage crap is just that since in the US of A the federal mandated minimum wage is $US7.95. Obama wants to make it $US9. Those equate to $NZ 9.70 to $NZ 10.98.

    But back to the original point. Perhaps instead of requiring attendance until age 16, we should have a 16yrs + literacy/numeracy/fitness tests for everyone before they may leave the education sytem :)

    [DPF: I support a minimum wage for adults, ie those aged 18 or higher]

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  4. JeffW (303 comments) says:

    We need to stop subsidising people to not work, and start subsidising people in work. Scrap the minimum wage, scrap the dole, and subsidise jobs.

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  5. hamnidaV2 (247 comments) says:

    Nothing like some good old fashioned beneficiary and teacher bashing to start the weekend.

    You Tories conveniently forget about the free market and neoliberal policies that led to the GFC.

    Perhaps your bathroom mirrors are a little foggy as Autumn sets in.

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  6. flipper (3,269 comments) says:

    hammyfistedone…
    It is the weekend. Please take a hike!

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  7. Redbaiter (6,478 comments) says:

    “You Tories”

    You moron.

    “Tories” are as rare as rocking horse shit in NZ and that is a big part of the problem.

    NZ is drowning in the sea of social liberalism.

    Mr Farrar’s post says this- ”

    “But despite the many jobless, employers say continual absenteeism, substance abuse and poor work ethic appear to be making a lot of them unemployable.”

    Our society is being white anted and you are one of those white ants.

    Singapore doesn’t have these problems.

    Why is that?

    I’ll tell you.

    Lee Kwan Yew had enough brains to keep people like you from destroying Singaporean society the way you have destroyed New Zealand.

    He kept Progressives out of Singapore and as a consequence of his foresight they have a high standard of living and low crime and a working successful model society that NZers could only today dream of.

    Down to one thing really- Progressives have not had a voice in Singapore’s political/social development.

    Here in NZ, they have dominated, and the ruined country we see before us is the result.

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  8. lazza (296 comments) says:

    For sound economic/social reasons … Indentured labour perhaps?. That! might “Shut Winnie up”! … make that … “Wind Winnie up”?

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  9. Reid (15,531 comments) says:

    The second is we need to install a work ethic in people from their teenage years. That is why I don’t support a minimum wage for under 18s, and why I support welfare reform.

    Which will do precisely nothing to achieve your stated objective. This is because the work ethic, whatever it is, is instilled by the child’s upbringing and by nothing else. It is an internalised set of values which are not affected by anything operating in the outside world.

    As I’ve said so many times before, the only repeat only answer to dealing with poor educational outcomes, poverty, long-term unemployed, violence and all the other ills, is by parental education, if necessary, using force, for those hard-core minority of parents who couldn’t give a fuck about their precious charges they have bought into the world.

    Bringing up a child with a good work ethic, who feels loved, valued, who loves others, does well at school, etc etc etc is NOT rocket science and has NOTHING to do with the external conditions of that child and EVERYTHING to do with the internal family life that child experiences.

    As I’ve said so many times before, lefties pretend that external conditions do have everything to do with it, they are wrong, but they can’t and they never will see it because this goes to the heart of their political analysis and how they view life itself. But fuck them, if they’re fucked in the head one can’t help that. So leave them aside.

    But conservatives have no excuse. They already know this. They have, through their own experiences, achieved precisely what I outlined above and they know that if their loving parents were dirt poor this did not affect their own upbringing in any way.

    So why don’t conservatives act on this, do the right thing, and make all the hopeless parents out there who breed generation after generation of angry, dysfunctional children get fucking educated, breaking down the door if necessary, if they won’t co-operate with the compulsory program?

    And of course I’m not talking about useless classes on household budgeting and how to change nappies. Duh. Of course it’s not that type of education that’s required. No. It’s education on how life works, on how not to be a victim, on how not to blame others for your own situation, on the values and rewards of persistence and perseverence, on basic shit like that that most of us just learned as a natural part of growing up in a loving family without us, or our parents, even thinking about it. It just happened, because that’s how our parents were bought up. That’s what’s missing in those kid’s lives and those parent’s lives and that’s what needs to be repaired and the only way to do that is to force them into it, because the ones that need the help don’t know they need it and they will never voluntarily take it, they will, to the contrary, use every effort to resist it.

    But will society do that? Of course not. That would be tewwible. That would denigrate and degrade the pawent’s human wights, oh dear, how awful, what a big bad meanie we would all be, if the state were to start doing something like that. The weeping and wailing would reach new heights, the UN would probably invade us to save the ‘poor darlings.’

    But that’s the answer, that’s the only answer, and anyone with commonsense knows it, because like I said, it’s not fucking rocket science, is it.

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  10. All_on_Red (941 comments) says:

    “You Tories conveniently forget about the free market and neoliberal policies that led to the GFC.”

    Its a bit early for revisionism isnt it.

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  11. wat dabney (3,445 comments) says:

    You Tories conveniently forget about the free market and neoliberal policies that led to the GFC.

    You conveniently forget that it was actually quasi-governmental organisations Fannie and Freddie which were front and centre of the financial crisis. And you also conveniently forget that it was implicit government bailout guarantees which induced private financial institutions to lend recklessly: they knew they were being underwritten by the taxpayers.

    http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2011/12/fannie-and-freddie-fantasies.html

    Indeed, what was entirely lacking from this fiasco was any free market discipline whatsoever.

    Question: Would you lend money to someone you didn’t know, at several points above the banks’ rate?

    What if your money were guaranteed by the state?

    Suddenly it’s a one-way bet.

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  12. Redbaiter (6,478 comments) says:

    Progressives have rotted NZ society with their “moral relativity” bullshit, and the National Party is full of it.

    Especially the Young Nats.

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  13. Caleb (465 comments) says:

    We have a very high teenage suicide rate too.
    Much for the same reasons.

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  14. Michael (880 comments) says:

    We can have much unemployment as we are willing to pay for. If you had to go through the same process to apply for a benefit as you would for applying for a job, and then expect evidence of actually looking for a job, then I’m sure we’d have a lot more effort in spelling and numeracy.

    “I’m sorry Mr Farrar, but the spelling errors on your blog, er CV, indicate you are not work ready so therefore are do not qualify for the Jobseekers Benefit.” ;-)

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  15. berend (1,600 comments) says:

    So what’s the chance that these people are from unmarried parents? 100%?

    So the last thing we need to do is introduce same-sex marriage as that has worked exceptionally well for countries that have tried it: a 100% increase in the number of kids born outside marriage.

    PS: data point: The Netherlands, 9% of mothers unmarried when they got their SECOND child in 2002, over 18% in 2012. So this is clearly not a case of people marrying when they get the first child, but foregoing marriage altogether.

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  16. Northland Wahine (542 comments) says:

    Respect, responsibility and consequences. These are things that should be taught at home and supported at school. Sadly, all 3 are on the decline.

    If students do not wish to learn (how I hate the new pet phrase”engage”), they won’t. They expect teachers to “earn” their respect, and they’re not the ones responsible for their actions because…”I’m misunderstood”. And the consequences when they fail grades? Little Tama and Marama leave school, illiterate, socially inept and unemployable. But wait! its not their fault, the “system” failed them.

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  17. wat dabney (3,445 comments) says:

    So what’s the chance that these people are from unmarried parents? 100%? So the last thing we need to do is introduce same-sex marriage

    Not enough children being born to married parents, therefore we need to continue stopping more people from getting married.

    Brilliant.

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  18. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    Oh the bloody irony.

    We collectively fawn all over social progressive nonsense like hand written notes to fake gay sons, view giving 1% of the population the right to fundamentally alter and redefine one of our strongest institutions as one of the biggest ‘issues’ of our times, and then we wonder why the next generation is going to shit?

    National have done NOTHING to address the damage Labour did to NZ society. Even when they had a golden opportunity with the smacking referendum to stick it to the progressives and win the heart and minds of decent NZers, John Key was more scared of what the bloody UN would think of him than his own countrymen and women.

    The damaging socialist progressive policies of the Labour/greens are now beginning to bite hard and National are standing their still wearing the nannies dress wondering what to do.

    Take the frock of Mr Key, you look like an idiot.

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  19. gazzmaniac (2,267 comments) says:

    Two people aren’t going to magically become good parents just because they are married.

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  20. hamnidaV2 (247 comments) says:

    I don’t think anyone with an internet connection is fooled by this type of Tory politics.

    Create an underclass through economic reform that covertly promotes unemployment and income disparity, then blame the poor of being poor.

    I can tell you right now what will really fix New Zealand:

    1. Full employment
    2. Top quality public education for all
    3. A fair tax system that rewards hard work

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  21. duggledog (1,111 comments) says:

    I saw this also. I place the blame squarely on the long succession of socialist governments New Zealand has endured. Tomorrow’s Schools didn’t help. What a fucking disaster. You can be whatever you want to be in life petal!

    Whoops.

    You can’t instill a work ethic amongst those that still think ‘she’ll be right’. Which is a hell of a lot of people, even now. Monique Watson is right. We should have shitcanned the entire welfare system years ago and done something else, it’s made us weak and retarded as a nation. Hamnida V2 it’s all your fault

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  22. berend (1,600 comments) says:

    wat dabney: Not enough children being born to married parents, therefore we need to continue stopping more people from getting married.

    First of all, data from countries having tried your “more people getting married” conclusively proves that’s not the outcome.

    Secondly, the reason being that by redefining marriage as some kind of commitment for some period of time you completely lose the meaning of marriage.

    Please tell me, why do you want to have the government in your bedroom? What has the government to do with people wanting to commit to one another? Are you asking for government permission before hooking up? Why do you need its seal of approval to do so for an extended period of time?

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  23. Redbaiter (6,478 comments) says:

    The schools have to step up on education and step down on social issues.

    Parents have to step up on social issues.

    It is that simple.

    But it will not happen until Progressives are out of our government. With their systematic and long term attacks on moral standards they have simultaneously ruined our schools and undermined our parents, and it is no surprise that this inwardly collapsing social chaos has resulted.

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  24. Redbaiter (6,478 comments) says:

    “1. Full employment
    2. Top quality public education for all
    3. A fair tax system that rewards hard work”

    They have all of those things in Singapore, but I bet you hate the place.

    Right?

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  25. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    I don’t think anyone with an internet connection is fooled by this type of Tory politics.

    Correction, no one with socialist progressive blinkers on is fooled by the reality staring them in the face.

    Create an underclass through economic reform that covertly promotes unemployment and income disparity, then blame the poor of being poor.

    Bullshit, National have not been in power long enough to create that situation yet, what we are dealing with right now is the sense of entitlement created by Labour and their social engineering rolled out over nearly 10 long years.

    I can tell you right now what will really fix New Zealand:

    No you won’t, you will spit out meaningless left wing mantra.

    1. Full employment

    People don’t want to work, and Labour taught them this is a valid lifestyle choice.

    2. Top quality public education for all

    What you really mean is socialist re-education camps, no, wait, we already have those.

    3. A fair tax system that rewards hard work

    Well that would be great, but we all know that the left regard ‘hard work’ as something out of touch torries do.

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  26. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    I don’t think anyone with an internet connection is fooled by this type of Tory politics.

    And I would have thought that in a post about how people are too feckless to hold down employment, someone actually suggest the no. 1 “fix” as full employment.

    The problem here is that there are jobs, and the people who are supposed to be filling them are simply disinterested. That’s not a function of economic status, it’s a function of personal attitude.

    But I agree with your point that charter schools will help with this.

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  27. Hodor (33 comments) says:

    IMHO it has nothing to do with marriage it is all about the type of person the parents are. Fucktard parents bring up fucktard kids and usually plenty of them. Single mums and gays could bring up decent kids just like de facto or married people could.

    Sadly there are too many long term welfare dependent losers here who keep producing Mini versions of themselves. Removing a whole generation of potential loser kids from their destructive home lives would go a long way to breaking this cycle, but of course that will never happen.

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  28. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    Sadly there are too many long term welfare dependent losers here who keep producing Mini versions of themselves. Removing a whole generation of potential loser kids from their destructive home lives would go a long way to breaking this cycle, but of course that will never happen.

    The Aussies apologised for running such a scheme in the 50s this week.

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  29. bringbackdemocracy (350 comments) says:

    Red Labour or Blue Labour the results are the same.
    The only difference between John Key and Helen Clark is that Key can’t grow a moustache.
    Also Clark knew that marriage was between a man and a woman.

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  30. jims_whare (389 comments) says:

    I have recently been advertising for a new farm worker for our dairy farm.

    One applicant told me in the interview (With a missus and 4 kids)that he gave up smoking weed 4 months ago…..because he had changed to smoking the legal stuff you can get from the dairy. Oh and he had no computer skills, said that when reading something he could understand 3-4 words and the guess the rest.

    Another one said that he only smoked weed after work and that it didn’t affect his work oh and that he will be getting his DL back soon as he lost it from being done for DIC 3 times.

    Having said that a couple of good caliber girls applied one of whom will get the job. (Both have a good brain, good work history, are very motivated, and are keen to get ahead)

    It seems to be that finding a good employee from amongst all the applicants is akin to finding a gold nugget after sifting through mountains of ore – great when you find one but takes a lot of work.

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  31. radvad (620 comments) says:

    To change behaviour only need to change the incentives.
    Put a time limit on benefits. Two years maximum at any one time, five years total over a life time.
    Problem solved.

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  32. Dave Stringer (182 comments) says:

    Three perspectives for ripping apart

    1. We have an education system that treats, and expect of, everyone the same, as a result we are not preparing our young people for the life they are most likely to lead. In my day, kids with low IQ were taught the basics of living in a broad spectrum society, things like budgeting, cooking on low incomes, etc.. Today we have abolished this preparedness, and tell all the kids from a geographic area they are the same and must stay that way, irrespective of their potential. THIS FAILS OUR CHILDREN AND OUR SOCIETY.

    2. We have a social perspective that does not allow for any form of punishment for socially unacceptable behaviour other than that meted out by courts. Hence younsters who turn on critical adults and threaten them (“wotter you gonna do if I keep kicking it – eh?”) as they know for certain nothing will be done to correct them. As a result, they respect nothing and no one but their own desires and wants, and have no work-ethic or sense of responsibility. THIS TOO FAILS OUR CHILDREN AND OUR SOCIETY.

    3. We provide a base standard of living that is $229.00, plus an Accommodation Supplement of up to $145, making a gross income of $375.00 ($10 per hour for a 37.5 hour work week) for a single person over 25. When you look at other “supplements” that can be obtained, AND the cost of working (transport, suitable clothing, etc., etc.,) it is easy to see why not working is as good a deal, financially, as working for minimum wage. THIS ALSO FAILS OUR SOCIETY

    While the challenges of a hetrogenius society are many, and since the 1950s we have seen great change in the way we address them, there is a reality that not all are equal; all should have EQUAL OPPORTUNITY to succeed, but to start a young person’s life view with the concept that what one has should be had by all, is to set most up to fail. We need to re-think the perspective on our society, and make it one that recognises differences and accommodates them, based on true potential of the individual, not an unobtainable nirvanah, we we all aspire to and have the standard of living of successful professionals. As it is, we expect too little of the great amongs us, and too much of the less than bright.

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  33. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    Here’s a hint.

    Schools are now teaching values. A quick google seach comes up with this one:

    Values are those things that really matter to each of us….the ideas and beliefs we hold as special. The Values need to be understood and practiced regularly in order to become ‘second nature’ through the way we act and behave at APS.

    At Alexandra Primary School we are currently focusing on developing the following Values:

    - Respect
    - Integrity
    - Social Action
    - Finding Humour

    I googled Social Action and got this:

    The basic concept was primarily developed in the non-positivist theory of Max Weber to observe how human behaviors relate to cause and effect in the social realm. For Weber, sociology is the study of society and behavior and must therefore look at the heart of interaction. The theory of social action, more than structural functionalist positions, accepts and assumes that humans vary their actions according to social contexts and how it will affect other people; when a potential reaction is not desirable, the action is modified accordingly. Action can mean either a basic action (one that has a meaning) or an advanced social action, which not only has a meaning but is directed at other actors and causes action (or, perhaps, inaction).

    From what I’ve seen, having a “values list” made up largely of things that are not actually values is pretty much par for the course.

    Besides, why have self-discipline, honesty, dependability when you can have “finding humour”?

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  34. duggledog (1,111 comments) says:

    Hodor, did you happen to see the lead story on One News last night by any chance?

    The poor kids who got killed by their 17 year old Aunty who had never held a driver’s license, near Helensville?

    Cut to the local ‘kaumatua’ at the local marae, and I quote:

    ‘Yeah she was always driving around, from here too, all the time’

    Never had a chance

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  35. gazzmaniac (2,267 comments) says:

    radvad – you’d find that people would treat any benefit time limit as a target, not a limit.

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  36. Colville (1,771 comments) says:

    The first is we need to stop people leaving school with inadequate literacy and numeracy skills.

    Bullshit. The thing that needs to be taught is work ethic. Plenty of basic jobs for simple people that want to work and will turn up on time.

    The problem I have with this view is that Redbaiter also seems to be of the same oppinion! Ekkkk!

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  37. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    I’ve asked this before, but I think it’s worth asking again:

    Why would you put a young, fit man with no family responsibilities on a benefit?

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  38. Colville (1,771 comments) says:

    radvad @ 11.01

    That would put people on our streets eating out of rubbish cans. I have seen that in other countries and do not want to see it here.

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  39. scrubone (2,971 comments) says:

    Colville: that already happens here.

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  40. Redbaiter (6,478 comments) says:

    “Two people aren’t going to magically become good parents just because they are married.”

    Yeah that’s right Gazzmoron, marriage ain’t worth a flying fuck to you progressives is it?

    “IMHO it has nothing to do with marriage it is all about the type of person the parents are. Single mums and gays could bring up decent kids just like de facto or married people could.”

    Another fucking commie knuckle dragger who doesn’t get it.

    Hey morons- this is exactly the kind of crap thinking that has got us to where we are.

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  41. duggledog (1,111 comments) says:

    Colville, come visit Auckland. We now have beggars

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  42. Redbaiter (6,478 comments) says:

    “That would put people on our streets eating out of rubbish cans.”

    That is crap.

    NZ has been through all kinds of trials and people have never eaten out of rubbish cans.

    Even when there was no social welfare.

    You are just a scare mongering commie who wants to hold on to power and lies and frightens people to do that.

    And if there are indeed people eating out of rubbish cans today its because of the political and social influence of fucked in the head commies like you.

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  43. joana (1,983 comments) says:

    I know of a boy who is ten and has not mastered the basics of handwriting let alone spelling or sentence construction..In my time such a boy would have been held back and made to repeat some of his school years..Now they just seem to let them go on through the school..I fear for this boy approaching secondary in such a state..He is a great reader but at this rate he would not even be able to fill out a time sheet at the most basic job.
    So many in prison were boys like this who had learning difficulties..In my opinion , if their mothers do not get behind them and get outside help for them , they are pretty much doomed. I have been down this road with a boy who could not /would not write..but I was taking him for tuition on Saturday mornings when he was five. I helped him and pushed him all the way through and now he has a very good job. He will never be a terrific writer but at least I didn’t let him languish.

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  44. gazzmaniac (2,267 comments) says:

    It’s all about whether the parents instill values like work ethic and personal responsibilty, values I share with him. A bit of paper signed by a celebrant or a priest and registered with the government doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference.

    But Redbaiter has his head so far up his arse that he doesn’t see that.

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  45. UglyTruth (3,010 comments) says:

    Education reform begins at home.

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  46. Redbaiter (6,478 comments) says:

    “A bit of paper signed by a celebrant or a priest and registered with the government doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference.”

    So you admit your signature and your word are both worthless?

    You just keep on keeping on commie, there is nothing that will save us from you and your destructive fucked in the head ideas other than those ideas falling from favour and your time passing by.

    In the meantime, we’ll all just continue to pay the price of a disintegrating society and a collapsing country.

    “But Redbaiter has his head so far up his arse that he doesn’t see that.”

    BTW arsehole. I know exactly what you are saying and where you are coming from. Don’t think I don’t “see it”. I see it alright, and I disagree with what I see.

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  47. gazzmaniac (2,267 comments) says:

    No Red, I’m saying that it doesn’t matter whether parents are married or not, it matters what the values they give their kids are. If that makes me a communist then so be it.

    I said nothing about the value of my word or my signature. Can’t you read or are you just retarded?

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  48. Viking2 (10,712 comments) says:

    [DPF: I support a minimum wage for adults, ie those aged 18 or higher]

    Wel now DPF . Lets point out the fundamental error of your, and many others, understanding.

    An 18 year old is not an adult.

    That those favourites of Reddy’s, the Progressives have changed the language and the rules on this is the problem.

    Real adults begin at 21.
    Now maybe you don’t remember ,but, in my younger days 21 was the age at which we teenagers were no longer teenagers and that was celebrated by a party where that young adult was given the Key to the Door.

    That those same progressives and socialists, who needed children to vote, changed the voting age to 18 and the age for most everything else like borrowing money added to the problem.

    That those socialists who were happy to send children to war at age 18, rather than themselves, use the age that one can join the Army as an excuse tells us more about those same people and child abuse than it excuses the age of anything being 18.

    God deamed that he took away their brains at 13 and give’s them back at 23.

    Nothing has changed.

    There is no need for minimum wages and the discrimination against young people earning money is an appalling indictment against Parliament.
    After all why not set a minimum rate for adults well above an adults aility to earn. Same deal, but you wouldn’t contenace that.

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  49. duggledog (1,111 comments) says:

    Joana @ 11.58

    So many of those in prison shouldn’t have been born. But what would you expect when you give away money for simply breeding

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  50. gazzmaniac (2,267 comments) says:

    duggledog – why don’t you go to a prison and try saying that to their faces?

    Your mother should have swallowed you.

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  51. Redbaiter (6,478 comments) says:

    “No Red, I’m saying that it doesn’t matter whether parents are married or not,”

    I can read, and I know well you are saying that, but it is my view that you are wrong. Very very wrong. It does matter.

    And yes of course it matters what values parents pass on to their kids, but they should do that within the bounds of a marriage for that marriage is actually the basis of all of those values. Its where they initially spring from.

    “I said nothing about the value of my word or my signature. Can’t you read or are you just retarded?”

    Again, I can read. Maybe you need to improve your writing skills, for you wrote your view above that a marriage certificate was a worthless document, and that a marriage ceremony was also worthless, in that they “do not make the slightest bit of difference”.

    If such events would indeed not make any difference to you, and were thereby rendered worthless, then what other rational conclusion can I come to other than that your word and your signature, which would both form a major part of these two events, are likewise worthless?

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  52. gazzmaniac (2,267 comments) says:

    Red, if you can read then your interpretation skills are very clearly lacking. My exact words were:

    It’s all about whether the parents instill values like work ethic and personal responsibilty, values I share with him. A bit of paper signed by a celebrant or a priest and registered with the government doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference.

    A reasonable person would interpret that to mean exactly what I meant – that it is my opinion that somebody’s parenting skills are independent of their marital status. It is quite a jump from that to “a marriage certificate was a worthless document.” If I had meant that, I would have written that.

    How exactly is a “marriage is actually the basis of all of those values?” I would have thought that the values of parents have far more bearing on the values of their children, than whether they are married or not.

    It seems to me that you are implying that the worst parents in the worst marriage are better than the best parents who are de-facto. Are you, or am I missing something in your illogical rant?

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  53. duggledog (1,111 comments) says:

    Gazzmaniac are you Kim Workman?

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  54. Redbaiter (6,478 comments) says:

    “A bit of paper signed by a celebrant or a priest and registered with the government doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference.”

    If you really cannot follow the rational path that determines that what you are saying above is that a marriage certificate/ ceremony has no worth, then I do not intend to waste any more time trying to reason with you. You are obviously incapable of that vital function.

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  55. gazzmaniac (2,267 comments) says:

    duggledog – no, and I don’t know who that is.

    Red – you are taking one sentence out of a paragraph and using it out of context. That makes you no better than the socialist scum you so despise.

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  56. Hodor (33 comments) says:

    @ scrubone – yes I did see that but I think the Aussie scheme was born out of sheer racism rather than anything else? My concern is breaking the cycle of terrible parenting/lifestyles no matter who it is.

    @duggledog – yeah maybe a parent-type person should have said “no driving until you learn properly, and have a license”. Instead everyone did nothing and the results are there for all to see. You would have thought a wise and learned kaumatua might have provided some guidance if ther were no parents on hand but apparently not.

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  57. Shunda barunda (2,964 comments) says:

    How exactly is a “marriage is actually the basis of all of those values?” I would have thought that the values of parents have far more bearing on the values of their children, than whether they are married or not.

    This is precisely why our society is going to shit, people are completely confused on what constitutes values and just ‘don’t get’ the point of traditional ideals. Perhaps once upon a time the reason people got married was because they held certain values?

    Marriage is supposed to mean something, it is about trying to live by the highest ideals for male/female relationships, commitment, love, respect, all things necessary for healthy happy children.

    But the destruction of this valuable institution by the progressives has left it as a mere shadow of it once was, and what do you know?, the shit is hitting the fan.

    But trying to get these ‘progressive’ nihilists to change their ways is about as easy as baptizing cats.

    They will blame everybody but themselves though, scapegoating is a universal ‘value’ among the social progressive crowd.

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  58. Inky_the_Red (718 comments) says:

    Here and in the UK it’s the same. It’s not education people are promoting but ideology
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/education-is-in-trouble-in-the-uk-8486944.html
    “You do not, repeat NOT, have to be examined and assessed ad infinitum in a subject to make it count. In fact it’s that mindset, encouraged by previous botched attempts at reform, which is partly responsible for the problems in education today. Einstein’s comment “What counts might not be countable and what can be counted might not count” should be displayed in every classroom, headteacher’s, education minister’s and Ofsted inspector’s office in the country. “

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  59. kiwigunner (184 comments) says:

    Back to the (flawed) argument of this post. That education reform (for this I guess it is meant privitisation of some sort) would solve all of the societal ills currently in our country? This including laziness, drug use, and a lack of ambition. Haven’t seen many (none actually) teachers encouraging these types of qualities in kids – quite the opposite in fact. But I have seen a tacit acceptance by successive governments around drug use, a reduction in the quality of parenting, an increase in poverty, a dismantling of community, and a growing disparity between the haves and have nots. Rural NZ in particular suffers from these things and a lack of employment that contributes to these things. Educational Reform would be an idiots, lazy way, to divert attention from the real work that needs to be done, and needs to be led from the top. Work that would address some of the real problems we have as a country rather than simply changing an area that continues to not only do quality work but also currently minimizes some of the affects of the problems on the children with the misfortune to be suffering from them.

    For the totally stupid author of this post simply reflect on what the Salvation Army on which too many Kiwis now rely say – they never talk about education reform but they worry for kids and our communities for the reasons outlined above.

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  60. gazzmaniac (2,267 comments) says:

    Shunda – It still doesn’t answer why a marriage is necessary for raising well rounded children.

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  61. UglyTruth (3,010 comments) says:

    gazzmaniac,
    Necessity is only relevant when a threat exists. Marriage – in the sense of common law marriage – places protection of the family in the hands of the husband; the alternative is a civil union where protection is provided by the state. So which environment is more likely to result in well rounded children: one in which the lessons of individual responsibility are taught in a immediate and direct way, or an environment in which responsibility for problems is disowned and placed in the hands of foreign collective?

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  62. gazzmaniac (2,267 comments) says:

    So all of a sudden it’s “common law marriage” or de-facto, not a legal marriage.
    The story keeps changing.

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  63. duggledog (1,111 comments) says:

    Gazz, how can you not know who Kim Workman is. As you know, Kim Workman believes all prisoners need a cuddle and a bit of a break. I don’t. I wouldn’t give a shit if they were all sent to the Sandwich Islands, having been on the receiving end of it.

    Considering you have to chop someone up into little bits to actually get imprisoned these days (and then let out on parole before half your sentence is done), and considering many of them have many convictions for crimes they’ve actually been caught doing, no, a lot of prisoners should not have been born.

    Unlike Kim Workman I think prisons should be for punishment and a deterrent first, with rehabilitation second. Ever tried to ‘rehabilitate’ a dog who’s gone after sheep? You either beat the living shit out of it on the spot and hope for the best or shoot it.

    If criminals can’t make a decent fist of it in a country with free education, free healthcare, free welfare etc etc then fuck ‘em. I’d swap everyone currently behind bars for the same amount of Chinese who want out

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  64. UglyTruth (3,010 comments) says:

    The story keeps changing.

    When have I said different? Common law marriage is de jure, it is not a de facto relationship. Civil unions occur by licence, they are the state’s substitute for real marriage. The misconception about a de facto relationship being a common law marriage probably stems from the state’s inability to tell the truth about the nature of common law.

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  65. gazzmaniac (2,267 comments) says:

    duggledog – it’s a very long bow to draw to say that I think that prisoners need a cuddle and a break, when all I asked is why you don’t go to a prison and tell some prisoners to their face that they shouldn’t have been born.

    Prisons seem like a pretty expensive option for punishment, and as you say, they are pretty ineffective at rehabilitation when you consider the recidivism rates.

    And no, I still haven’t heard of Kim Workman.

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  66. mara (639 comments) says:

    All this talk of young people being useless today … my 21 year old got a B.Prop degree last year, a fairly nebulous thing you might say but she is currently and happily employed. Why ,when many other kids are unemployed? Because, in passing, she is respectful, clean, well-mannered, alert and has her ears and eyes pegged well open. She may well be wicked in private, as most of us are, but, hey, more kids would do better if their parents were brighter and more careful. We took responsibility for her. The Govt. however does not encourage this. We are so donkey-deep in welfare that I cannot see a way out.

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  67. SPC (4,639 comments) says:

    I find it interesting that what these employers are really saying is that despite the trial employment period they won’t give people who they don’t take to at first sight (or even based on the CV) a chance in the job.

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  68. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    A bang up job of trash creation by NZer’s.

    Aided & abetted with relish by the army of social liberals from both sides of the house over the last 40 or so years….give yourselves a pat on the back National & Labour.

    Well done!

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  69. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    SPC (2,550) Says:
    March 23rd, 2013 at 10:26 pm
    I find it interesting that what these employers are really saying is that despite the trial employment period they won’t give people who they don’t take to at first sight (or even based on the CV) a chance in the job.

    Does seem to be an element of truth to that SPC. I guess a lot haven’t really cottoned on to the benefits of it, though the employers in the article seem to be looking primarily at basement-level labour, which you’d think was thick on the floor…..haha, obviously!

    There is the whole ‘culture & ethos’ thing to consider for many employers too but…sometimes you just have to take the most suitable of a mediocre bunch. You can’t, and more often than not, don’t get the applicant you want. Employers can get overly nit-picky about that sort of thing.

    But, no doubts, there’s more trash than ever about.

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  70. HC (130 comments) says:

    This “Stuff” article that is referred to is bizarre. While there will be issues with some job seekers, I go around many work places and do not see workers not performing, being drunk, being drugged, chewing gums, shying from doing the job or whatsoever. I see work gangs repairing roads, trimming trees, digging trenches, mowing lawns, doing construction jobs, and doing other manual work, and I do not see such slack conduct there either.

    Naturally some problems stem from the poor homes some come from, where parents have issues and have not been good role models, possibly have had their own behavioural, drug and alcohol problems.

    Schools can only do so much, and educational reform will not resolve failings by parents and also some other services.

    Is one major problem not the negligence of apprenticeship type training in NZ, which is very different in Central Europe. Too many aspire – and are encouraged – to try and go to university, to do some other polytech style tertiary or other training, to spend endless times in classes, reading and discussing theoretic stuff, but do not get enough exposure to technical and manual work in work places.

    Apprenticeships should be supported and introduced across the board for all technical and service types jobs, that require some sound skills and dexterity. Class education to offer the theoretical and academic parts should be complementary. If young people get offered a chance and opportunity, almost all will take this up.

    But letting people spend too much time in front of computers, gaming machines, television sets and not even learn at home how to do the washing, to mend simple things, that of course leads to such lack of skills and poorer attitudes.

    I am afraid, that the much hailed “welfare reforms” will not solve and change the problems at all. They take the wrong, very bureaucratic, overly punitive approach, only causing more issues and costs.

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