Finlayson on Treaty settlements

February 7th, 2014 at 12:00 pm by David Farrar

wrote on Waitangi Day:

Some people say they want an end to historical settlements. Most people agree. I do. Maori want them resolved as well.

For a while it seemed as if this might never happen. The process, which had started with fanfare in the 1990s, was crawling along at a snail’s pace for much of the 2000s.

One briefing to the previous government optimistically predicted all settlements could be completed by the year 2060.

That has changed. The completion of all settlements is now an achievable goal. It can happen, with the goodwill of all parties, in the next few years.

Of the big settlements, only really Ngapuhi to go.

The settlements will end not because Maori and the public have tired of them, but because they are finished.

The Ngati Kuri will bring to 42 the number of settlements this Government has signed with iwi. That brings the total to 68.

National’s policy since the 1990s has been to address real grievances by reaching full and final settlements with genuine claimants in a timely fashion. Are there non-genuine claims? Certainly, just as there are vexatious cases in the common law courts. They are easy to spot. We are not interested in claims about the ownership of wind, for example.

Or the airwaves!

We are determined, however, to put right the thoroughly and accurately documented cases of hurt caused by the Crown’s wrongful actions in the past. This is what Treaty settlements are about.

The faster we settle these claims, the sooner there is an end. The sooner we settle, the sooner iwi can see the benefits of their settlements, and the sooner all New Zealanders benefit from moving on from grievance. Justice delayed is justice denied.

And the good news is that the completion of settlements is closer than many people think.

The number of remaining settlements is fewer than 50. Many of the remaining claimants have signed agreements in principle setting out the broad parameters of their settlements, and the Crown is engaged with almost all groups.

We are well on the way to the end. And the sky has not fallen. Despite dire predictions from a small minority at the beginning of this process, the quality of life of most New Zealanders has not been affected in any way. Beaches, national parks, rivers and mountain ranges are still enjoyed by everyone in exactly the same way they were before.

What has happened is that iwi have invested in their people and their regions.

Rather than blowing the proceeds of Treaty settlements, as was again predicted by a vocal few, most have acted wisely and developed the capacity of their people.

This is true. Even Tainui which had some problems a decade ago, is doing very well now.

Tags: , ,

135 Responses to “Finlayson on Treaty settlements”

  1. BeaB (2,080 comments) says:

    It is sad that so many Maori are so blinkered they still think Labour, that has treated them so shamefully and disdainfully in the recent past, is their best choice of government.

    John Key’s government has shown fairness, generosity of spirit (and cash) and a genuine desire to engage to achieve better outcomes. And a refreshing sense of urgency which Maori should appreciate.

    Labour will cover them with smarm, use them for photo ops (we all just about fell off the sofa laughing when we saw Cunliffe trying to act the man as his soft, pale Herne Bay fingers barely grasped the rope while he gazed straight at the camera!) and let them stew in poverty and dependency.

    Good for Chris Finlayson – perhaps too clever, too sharp and too clear-eyed to fit the current PC treacly mould.

    Vote: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. kowtow (7,921 comments) says:

    What “real grievances”?

    These things ,if they did occur ,happened years ago,they are ,”historical”, in other words ,past and have no grounds today other than in the minds of those who will benefit.(Be they the elites,lawyers or anyone else in the grievance industry.)

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 16 Thumb down 11 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. Andrei (2,532 comments) says:

    We are determined, however, to put right the thoroughly and accurately documented cases of hurt caused by the Crown’s wrongful actions in the past.

    How bogus is that – 100 years from now a claim for this “hurt” will be in the offing

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/02/so_if_you_are_a_novelist_youre_exempt_from_the_public_works_act.html

    I suffer great “hurt” for the actions of the Third Reich against my family as do millions of others but I don’t see any recompense forthcoming from the current German Government – does anybody?

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 18 Thumb down 8 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. itstricky (1,693 comments) says:

    I suffer great “hurt” for the actions of the Third Reich against my family

    Whilst that is horrible and unfortunate it is not a good analogy. That was a war crime. This is a treaty/contract. Distinctly different.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 15 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. MH (682 comments) says:

    Ngapuhi need as much blood money as we can give them. The day other tribes can then sue them for confiscation of lands, enslavement, and internecine genocide will be an interesting test to validate their purported claims of nationhood under the Confederation of United Tribes and their signed declaration of Independence. Is that too much to ask? When have they apologised to other tribes? One sided morality and a scam unequalled. The answer is that it is “our business”,”our” money to deal with as we see fit, and we can’t apply todays morality on aspects of “our” culture such as utu to pre 1840 conditions. Somehow the wrongs post 1840 are more important ? What standing then for verbal contracts between Maori. Hone in the breach. No honour amongst murderers.Yet it was the acceptance by the British of lands in possession of these war criminals that has brought about the greatest grievances. Who was there to speak on these victims behalf,where were the great oral historians, their mouths choking on the remains of their enemies oral historians. Full and final,right you are.

    Vote: Thumb up 19 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. itstricky (1,693 comments) says:

    John Key’s government has shown fairness, generosity of spirit (and cash) and a genuine

    Whilst I think Finlayson (and subordinates) deserves much credit for whipping through these so quick I am not sure that any other individuals deserve credit do they?

    The thing is between Iwi and The Crown, not individual Governments of the day. And there is a seperate Tribunal with umpteen powers etc.

    I don’t get the impression that Key walks in there on his off days, waves his hands wildly and says ‘Give em $XXX mill and throw in a couple of steak knives’

    Or does he? Do I have it all wrong.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 13 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. RRM (9,638 comments) says:

    It will never end.

    Contemporary generations of Maori ™ who’ve had nothing taken from them will continue demanding that free stuff be given to them.

    And my generation, who’ve NEVER taken ANYTHING from anybody, will continue to pay and pay for it all.

    It will never end, filth like Tuku and the Harawiras have too much to gain from perpetuating racial hatred to let it all slip away.

    I have good working and personal relationships with plenty of Maori GCs who have nothing to do with the Waitangi Shit.

    But I am SO FUCKING OVER THIS WAITANGI SHIT and the Maori ™ who are behind it.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 35 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. David Garrett (6,723 comments) says:

    RRM: I totally agree with you.

    BeaB: Boy, does Finlayson have you fooled! You are quite correct that he is smart and sharp..well smart and sharp enough to know that these “settlements” will never end.. No less than the government’s support partner in Parliament says so openly! “No generation can bind future generations” say Turia and Sharples…it’s in Hansard…What part of that do you not understand?

    The taxes of my children and their children will be used – in small part admittedly – to make further “full and final” settlements. It will never end unless there is either a break-away state, or a civil war.

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 29 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. Odakyu-sen (510 comments) says:

    The government should hold a referendum and ask the citizens of NZ whether or not to end the Treaty payments. Let the people decide; after all, it’s their money.

    Vote: Thumb up 19 Thumb down 5 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. Jack5 (4,819 comments) says:

    In this context, Finlayson’s remarks on treaty settlements in his maiden speech to Parliament are interesting. Defining himself as a liberal-conservative, he went on to say:

    The liberal-conservative is positive about New Zealand’s ability to settle Treaty issues finally, expeditiously and justly. For many years I was involved in Treaty litigation. In particular I acted for Ngai Tahu in its claim against the Crown. The proudest moment of my professional career was being at Kaikoura on 21 November 1997 when the former Prime Minister, Jim Bolger, and Sir Tipene O’Regan for Ngai Tahu signed the Deed of Settlement. Since then, Ngai Tahu has gone from strength to strength and is now a major economic and social force in the South Island.

    The National Party can be very proud of its work with Maori over the years. The legacy of National Ministers like Ralph Hanan and Sir Douglas Graham is an outstanding one. However if New Zealand is to complete the Treaty settlement phase of its history within a reasonable time, much more needs to be done. In particular the Waitangi Tribunal needs to be properly resourced, both financially and in human terms, so that it can complete its very important task. I also think the Crown needs to show more energy in negotiating settlements with iwi. The Crown’s lethargic and bureaucratic approach to settlement negotiations needs to change.

    Finlayson did win a good deal for Ngai Tahu, and last year, as Treaty Minister, was likely the politician who signed the latest top-up for the tribe. We cannot blame him for Ngai Tahu businesses’ tax-free status under the tribe’s group-charity status. However, deserving to be noted are the role of this tax status, and of the tribe’s right for ever to have first and second purchase rights on assets the State wants to sell in the South Island. Beyond these, Ngai Tahu are making a good job of managing their booty.

    Given his success for Ngai Tahu, from the point of view of non-Maori, the safest place for Finlayson is likely to be inside the tent – in the National Coalition. Don’t let Finlayson out of the tent, Mr Key.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. David Garrett (6,723 comments) says:

    One of the several reasons it will never end is quite simple. The payments made thus far are a small fraction of the improved value of the land confiscated or otherwise misappropriated by successive governments. This is because no government could afford to make full compensation. That fact provides a good reason for continued and continuing claims.

    If Key was serious about settling the Ngapuhi claim he would simply give them six months to decide who was negotiating on their behalf, and if the appointment was not made by then, declare there would BE no settlement…but that wouldn’t work either…See the preceding para…

    It should always be remembered that the Lange government – advised by Palmer – started this crap when they extended the Waitangi Tribunal’s jurisdiction back to 1840…

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 26 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. Jack5 (4,819 comments) says:

    David Garrett posted at 1.18:

    The payments made thus far are a small fraction of the value of the land confiscated or otherwise misappropriated by successive governments…

    You’re the lawyer, David. I’m the layman, but you seem to be using the “improved value” – which will come not only for improvements on the actual land at issue, but from improvements such as roading, electricity, communications, etc.

    You could also compare current underlying value of land with land as it would have been if still owned by the tribe – communally owned and inalienable, therefore unable to be used as collateral for loans. This would have meant it was undevelopable (if there’s such a word).

    Add to this the value added by surveying and addition to a land title system.

    Surely you just can’t take the difference between a price paid or given in compensation nearly two centuries ago (and corrected to present-day equivalent value of course) and then compare it with the present value of surveyed, titled land which can be used as collateral. And of course surely you need to deduct all the inputs that improved the value over the centuries, inputs both direct to the land, and indirectly to its environment.

    Vote: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. MH (682 comments) says:

    should we then deduct the annual costs of running separate Aboriginal and then Native Affairs Depts.Maori Affairs, all the various govt grants especially open to Maori,costs associated with separate health organisations etc since 1840 ?

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. David Garrett (6,723 comments) says:

    Jack5: I didn’t say compensation at improved value – even excluding any buildings from “improvements” – was comparing apples with apples…of course it is not.

    What I am saying is that the aggrieved Maori can now, and will forever, be able to point out that there is a huge gulf between the value of the land confiscated/missappropriated, and the compensation paid. even in the total of the several “full and final” settlements paid to date. And that discrepancy will provide the ongoing “grievance” for successive generations.

    If Palmer wasn’t an academic ass he would have realised all of this when he advised the Lange cabinet – as Roger Douglas says he did – that extending the Tribunal’s jurisdiction back to 1840 wouldn’t cause any significant problem. Just like he advised them that s.9 of the SOE’s Act was “meaningless window dressing”…and that is a direct quote via Sir Roger. Here we are 30 years later still paying for Palmer’s lack of real world understanding.

    MH: Of course we “should”…but we won’t!!

    Vote: Thumb up 18 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. RRM (9,638 comments) says:

    Meanwhile, the good people of Porirua spent a fortune building the Te Rauparaha Arena.

    Because the cruellest and bloodthirstiest of Maori warlords is apparently somebody to celebrate. (Today UN forces would turn him over to the locals for a quick semi-judicial hanging, followed by burial in a ditch.)

    But crimes by historical English people require today’s generation to pay compensation, while being called white mother fuckers.

    The tribute only ever flows one way in Maori ™ land.

    Imagine the outcry if aggrieved white mother fuckers started spitting in people’s faces, throwing stones, chopping down (flag) poles….

    Popular. Like or Dislike: Thumb up 22 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. Jack5 (4,819 comments) says:

    Re David Garrett at 1.36.

    As a layman I’m struggling here, David, but do the tribal grievants argue about the difference in what they were paid and what the current unimproved value of the land is?

    I don’t see how over nearly two centuries you can compare unimproved values for the same piece of land. The effects of the environment by roading, electricity and a hundred other facilities surely make this impossible.

    Also can communally owned, inalienable land, which is therefore unable to be used for collateral have any comparable value to current normal-title land which has been developed over close to two centuries with capital input enabled by its non-communal status?

    The whole comparison in values seems bullshit, to me. However, you are right, it is vague enough to feed grievances and blackmail-like claims for centuries to come until nearly every NZ’er is one-tenth Maori genetically and is basically making claims against himself.

    In my limited understanding, I believe, that without British settlement, NZ would have been dead capital. And you can read about this concept of De Soto at this link:

    http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/world_policy_journal/summary/v028/28.2.de-soto.html

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. JMS (314 comments) says:

    @RRM

    Yes, even saw a TV ad for it recently.

    Couldn’t believe my fucking eyes. Why not just name it the Pol Pot Arena?

    Worse still, Ngati Toa aren’t even from the Wellington Area, they are colonisers from Kawhia Harbour.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. Paulus (2,556 comments) says:

    For some years since Maori began to obtain by fraud taxpayers money thanks to Palmer and Lange I have come to the idea that in reality whatever the settlements it is not all bad for New Zealand unless the assets purchased are sold overseas, and they may well be.

    It is because the money injected into the part Maori economy will be used up in time as it filters into the whole economy.

    Many of their ventures will go belly up due to theft and or bad investments, which may well be the same thing.
    What goes around comes around, but in different hands and again is spent.

    I do have a problem in that there are thousands of part Maori registered charities and trusts who pay no tax. I have a copy of a list with thousands on it.
    I would expect in say 50 years time that, whoever and whatever, part Maori are, will have a shadow of what is now in their market place. A few very rich part Maori will then exist, and the balance will not have seen any or a very small amount of the original settlement.
    Look at Ngapuhi currently – they are fighting between their families as to who is going to be the very rich and who is going to effectively get stuff all and remain poor.

    It is also a well known fact that, for example, people who win large Lotto prizes finish up broke in the not too distant time of their wins. Another new big Mercedes Tuku ? I cannot but see any difference here.

    But we must take recognise David Garrett’s comments in that when the part Maori lose their money and investments they will come back to the 86% of the population for more and more and more.
    Will any Government now state that “Full and Final Settlement” mean what it says – get stuffed.
    Doubt it.

    Vote: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. Nigel Kearney (914 comments) says:

    >Are there non-genuine claims? Certainly, just as there are vexatious
    >cases in the common law courts. They are easy to spot.

    Being easy to spot doesn’t mean they won’t succeed. You still need Maori permission to take tourists out in a boat to look at whales.

    Vote: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. big bruv (13,552 comments) says:

    Two things….

    1. These “real” grievances are nothing more than bullshit. Sure some bad things might have happened years ago but deal with it and move on.
    2. Anybody who thinks that these settlements are going to be full and final is a moron. Our grandkids will still be dealing with bludgers using colonisation as the excuse for all that ails Maori.

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. cha (3,843 comments) says:

    I suffer great “hurt” for the actions of the Third Reich against my family as do millions of others but I don’t see any recompense forthcoming from the current German Government – does anybody?

    Best you lodge your claim.

    http://www.ushmm.org/information/exhibitions/online-features/special-focus/holocaust-era-assets/germany-compensation-programs#Compensation

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. Andrei (2,532 comments) says:

    Nice try Cha but that is for people who directly suffered physical injury at the hands of the Wehrmacht and are currently living in hardship as a result of that injury

    It most certainly is not applicable to their great great great ….. grandchildren

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. tvb (4,242 comments) says:

    The Labour Party thrives on welfare dependancy and poverty which is why all their policies for Maori are tailored to that end. They do not like the treaty settlements hence they dragged their feet when they were in Government. They even had Margaret Wilson as their Minister who achieved almost nothing. Things got a move along with Dr Cullen but most progress has been made under Chris Finlayson who seems committed to the task.

    Vote: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Some people say they want an end to historical settlements. Most people agree. I do. Maori want them resolved as well.

    I don’t think so. The Maori elites want the gravy train to continue until the end of time.
    Where else would the Stone Agers get such easy taxpayer’s money?

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. Psycho Milt (2,363 comments) says:

    I suffer great “hurt” for the actions of the Third Reich against my family as do millions of others but I don’t see any recompense forthcoming from the current German Government – does anybody?

    Reparations payments, the retention of significant numbers of PoWs as slave labourers and the decades the CPSU owned half of Germany and took just about every penny it earned doesn’t count, huh? I certainly hope the NZ government doesn’t offer that kind of recompense to Maori…

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 11 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. Psycho Milt (2,363 comments) says:

    It should always be remembered that the Lange government – advised by Palmer – started this crap when they extended the Waitangi Tribunal’s jurisdiction back to 1840…

    Absolutely correct, Lange and Palmer get the credit for doing the right thing – the Nats get none, despite DPF’s propaganda on their behalf.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 3 Thumb down 23 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. Odakyu-sen (510 comments) says:

    “What has happened is that iwi have invested in their people and their regions.”
    “Rather than blowing the proceeds of Treaty settlements, as was again predicted by a vocal few, most have acted wisely and developed the capacity of their people.”

    Their regions and their people. Them and us.

    This is not going to end well in the long run….

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. Yoza (1,667 comments) says:

    Still blocked?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. nasska (10,877 comments) says:

    ….” Lange and Palmer get the credit for doing the right thing”…..

    For the tribal elite. Owners of BMW franchises everywhere will endorse your view.

    Vote: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. hj (6,697 comments) says:

    I now declare the war i Iraq over! GWB.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. Tom Jackson (2,486 comments) says:

    One of the several reasons it will never end is quite simple.

    And that is that under MMP National pretty much needs Maori votes to govern, whether for National directly, or through proxies such as the Maori Party. It’s no accident that this stuff accelerated right at the time MMP came into force.

    The settlement process has enriched a minority of well connected Maori (several of whom I know personally), and fostered Maori capitalism.

    Like many, I am also sceptical about the motives of the judiciary on the foreshore and seabed issue. The National Party couldn’t have asked for a bigger gift than that, even though they managed to screw up the election it gift wrapped for them.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. insider (1,030 comments) says:

    It doesn’t end. See http://www.carbonnews.co.nz/story.asp?storyID=7439&src=newsletter – maori want millions because the carbon prices haven’t panned out

    is there any iwi more insane than ngapuhi? More faux outrage and threats from david rankin over history

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. Steve (North Shore) (4,520 comments) says:

    Throughout History all land has been won by conquest – so get the fuck out of my wallet

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. Pete George (23,296 comments) says:

    This claim from Metiria Turei will take a bit of settling.

    We need a new direction because each day that goes by more of our kids are being robbed of their future, and too many of these kids are Māori.

    Especially on Waitangi Day, I remember that the Treaty guarantees our children the right to an education, the right to clean oceans, and the right to a good life and a fair future.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. big bruv (13,552 comments) says:

    If Colin Craig was media savvy instead of a utter moron then he would have been in the media over the last two days saying that it is the policy of the CCCP to ensure that all treaty settlements will be full and final, and, that if Maori come back to any government he is a part of they will be told to bugger off.

    Vote: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Until the Treaty is destroyed, Maori forget the past, and taxpayers’ benevolence ceases to fund election bribes, the better for all concerned. I, for one, am sickened by the word “Treaty”, and its connotations and interpretations, pandering to a select few fat cats that don’t give a stuff about the plight of their over privileged iwi.

    Vote: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. jaba (2,095 comments) says:

    imagine the mayhem if every “1st people” of every country performed like SOME (and it is only some) Maori .. it’s bad enough watching the shit fights in the Middle East and Africa over this sort of issue.
    Harawira, Sykes, Mair, Smith and their ilk will never ever stop protesting and demanding compensation for something.

    Vote: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. big bruv (13,552 comments) says:

    jaba

    It may interest you that there is talk among some in the black population of the USA to go after the government for their treatment as slaves. I don’t remember the exact amount being talked about but I do know that the figure is in the trillions.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. Tom Jackson (2,486 comments) says:

    Throughout History all land has been won by conquest – so get the fuck out of my wallet

    If you say that to them, they’ll just say “make me”, at which point you will be exposed as full of hot air.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 7 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    big bruv: Colin Craig is media wise, but they ridicule him because he is a success story and not a bludging Labour/Green. This has been his problem all along, he is often misquoted, fitting media’s left-wing aspirations.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. Tom Jackson (2,486 comments) says:

    Colin Craig is media wise

    Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. big bruv (13,552 comments) says:

    igm

    Anybody who lets himself be drawn on chemtrails, man on the moon or 911 being an inside job is not media savvy. The man is a moron.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. nasska (10,877 comments) says:

    …”The man is a moron”….

    Flattery!

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. Scott (1,736 comments) says:

    I agree it is hard to see the process ending. White liberal guilt is inexhaustible. While Maori are quite happy to enjoy the transfer payments from the already overburdened taxpayer. I do think some kind of conservative government that believes in our future together as a nation may be inclined to finish the settlements.
    Unfortunately both Labour and National are dominated by progressives who don’t like western civilisation and accept the radical views of Maori activists.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. OneTrack (2,794 comments) says:

    “The government should hold a referendum and ask the citizens of NZ whether or not to end the Treaty payments.”

    Good luck with that plan. The elites would never allow it – the proletariat might vote for the “wrong” thing.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. Gulag1917 (795 comments) says:

    The conquered were once conquerors no compensation to those victims because they were wiped out.

    Vote: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. deadrightkev (328 comments) says:

    Chris Finlayson is a traitor in my books.

    He has no justification handing over the legitimate birth rights of all New Zealanders to a small group of Iwi elite via the corrupt Waitangi Tribunal on the basis of compensation. It is a disgrace. If there was a proper independent legal process to analyse these treaty scams based on fact none of them would pass muster.

    One day this whole fraud will come back to haunt the National party.

    Vote: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. David Garrett (6,723 comments) says:

    deadrightkev: I would like to think you are right…but the youngsters coming behind us are now indoctinrated from about year 6 (standard 4) in “grievanceology”…how much we owe the dispossessed brown proletariat for what “we” have done to them…in 15 or 20 years, those kids will be in positions of power…already you and I and the sensible commenters here are minority voices in the wildnerness…think what it will be like in 20 years?

    Vote: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. Pete George (23,296 comments) says:

    deadrightkev – how many corrupt treaty claims do you have evidence for?

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. Tom Jackson (2,486 comments) says:

    He has no justification handing over the legitimate birth rights of all New Zealanders to a small group of Iwi elite via the corrupt Waitangi Tribunal on the basis of compensation

    How is it corrupt?

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. kowtow (7,921 comments) says:

    The Ngai Tahu one qualifies.

    How many times does honkey have to pay for past “injustices” when in fact the wiley Maori entered into commercial deals with their eyes wide open and have taken advantage of white guilt ever since. The whole “process’ is a sick and very expensive joke on the taxpayer with active conivance from government.

    The perpetual top up clause they got is also an appalling abuse of the taxpayer.

    http://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/opinion/212056/complaint-industry-still-rambles

    Vote: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. itstricky (1,693 comments) says:

    the youngsters coming behind us are now indoctinrated from about year 6 (standard 4) in“grievanceology”

    You mean they actually teach them about the TOW? I thought that didn’t actually exist. I thought that the MSM all got together for a big party one day and, while they were all pissed, under instruction of the New World Order they colluded to make a whole heap of fake history, seed it into all our history books via their control of our minds with subliminal tv broadcasts. Then they scanned in Obama’s birth certificate and manipulated it to make it look like a contract of some sort. Then they printed that out, stained it with two day old tea and shoved it the oven to roughen the edges.

    Boy it’s lucky you told me that before I had kids. Now I know for certain I must home school them.

    You are so right – you, Kev and Colin Craig are the only sensible posters here.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 10 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. gazzmaniac (2,319 comments) says:

    It may interest you that there is talk among some in the black population of the USA to go after the government for their treatment as slaves. I don’t remember the exact amount being talked about but I do know that the figure is in the trillions.

    So apparently having the nation ripped apart by a Civil War that was fought to free slaves isn’t enough. Jesus fucking Christ!

    Vote: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. Graeme2 (102 comments) says:

    “The Ngai Tahu one qualifies.”
    I agree Kowtow. Perhaps PG would like to read Twisting the Treaty, The Great Divide or When two Cultures Meet for plenty more examples.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. Odakyu-sen (510 comments) says:

    “The government should hold a referendum and ask the citizens of NZ whether or not to end the Treaty payments.”

    Good luck with that plan. The elites would never allow it – the proletariat might vote for the “wrong” thing.

    Enter the CCCP.

    Colin, we have a referendum for you to organize on behalf of the people of New Zealand. (Go get ‘em, Tiger.)

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. Odakyu-sen (510 comments) says:

    Scott noted: “I agree it is hard to see the process ending. White liberal guilt is inexhaustible.”

    That may be so, but many of the new up-and-coming New Zealanders are of Chinese, Indian, Korean, Japanese, Filippino, Cambodian extraction.

    Newsflash: These guys don’t do “White guilt” (let alone “White liberal guilt”) on account of them not being white and sure as hell not “liberal.”

    The radicals are doing to be begging for “poor pet pakeha” once the nouveau New Zealanders rise in our society, as they surely will.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. Im Right (3 comments) says:

    I think we know the outcome of any CIR question ‘ should we stop the treaty being used in law’, ‘should the claims end’, ‘should we have separate Maori seats in Parliament/council’, ‘do you believe in one law for all, and no exceptions for any ethnic group’, ‘should Maori have to stand in any electorate, as every ethnic person has to, to get a voice’….there, I’m sure there is more ‘questions’, but as already posted previously, the ones governing us all, be it blue or red, would never even attempt it as it would mean the great unwashed would start a Hikoi! :)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. Im Right (3 comments) says:

    @ Odakyu-sen
    Well said, never thought of that…but true none the less!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  59. nasska (10,877 comments) says:

    Odakyu-sen

    That is the urgency that will sink home soon with the Treaty bleaters.

    They need to get into the trough before it’s too late.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  60. Odakyu-sen (510 comments) says:

    I suspect that the “Treaty bleaters” do not realize that the rest of New Zealand society is morphing before their eyes into something quite different. The old label of “pakeha” is slowly withering away, and is being gradually replaced by something different, particularly in Auckland.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  61. nasska (10,877 comments) says:

    The Treaty industry is driven by & for the Maori elite who tend to be those who stayed behind in the tribal lands during the urban migration in the latter part of last century. When the claims are paid up they will be the well paid meeting attenders, swanning around in their BMWs appeasing taniwha for a fee.

    They are rural based & orientated so may not be so aware of the new cultural & ethnic mix in the cities.

    Theirs may be rude awakening.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  62. wiseowl (817 comments) says:

    Late in tonight and reading this makes my blood boil.
    Finlayson would have to be one of the worst people the National Party have ever engaged for anything.He is obviously not interested in the truth (although I realise the Tribunal don’t get presented with the real facts) and has sold this country down the road.
    Many of the settlements are based on mistruths and porkies.

    No-one has mentioned the absolutely shocking division that is being created by having separate Race seats and representation on councils and so-called co-governance which needs to be stopped in its tracks by some brave politician.
    National have actually created a timebomb for this country and when Key said on radio that the treaty was a partnership I thought what a big let down.
    The treaty is NOT a bloody partnership.

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  63. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    The truth is Maori were not the first people of Aotearoa

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  64. Longknives (4,678 comments) says:

    http://www.nzgeographic.co.nz/archives/issue-95/darwin

    And we all know Charles Darwin was right about everything…

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  65. Chuck Bird (4,749 comments) says:

    I heard the new ACT leader being interviewed by Wallace Chapman and taking calls. He thinks we should get rid of the special Maori seats when all the treaty claims are finished. By the sounds of most on this blog that means never. I like Winston Peters policy better which is have a binding referendum on the Maori seats.

    Both ACT and National had a policy of no special seats for Maori. It will be interesting if Winston gives that policy a very high priority in coalition talks. I can see Winston pushing real hard on this one. He will be looking at a legacy.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  66. adze (1,982 comments) says:

    I hope Finlayson is right. At any rate I am convinced that the best way to get people to cohere in society is to give them reason to think they can get ahead in that society. And as long as Ngai Tahu et al become a vanguard for Maori entrepreneurship and engagement, the future looks hopeful that the age of grievance will subside.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  67. Chuck Bird (4,749 comments) says:

    “No-one has mentioned the absolutely shocking division that is being created by having separate Race seats and representation on councils and so-called co-governance which needs to be stopped in its tracks by some brave politician.”

    You are absolutely right and this is coming from someone who is a appalled at some of the real anti-Maori comments on this blog. The separate race based seats only benefit the brown elite. They harm the average Maori who wants to get ahead because they get unfairly blamed for a policy designed by political whores who were out to buy votes.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  68. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    If all this nonsense was really helping Maori get ahead, I might over look the racist aspect of it. But it is not helping. The average Maori gets the resentment of the rest of the population and none of the promised benefits.

    When you look around the world at fractured dysfunctional societies you find one thing in common. Historical grievances that are being kept alive.

    Vote: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  69. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    So the National plan to hold a referendum on Maori seats cannot be held in 2014 (as the iwi settlement process will not be completed this year), and an effort is to be made to be in position to offer one in 2017.

    This is the reward to Pakeha supporters of National for supporting the settlement process.

    But the posed referendum would involve Maori voters and they in the majority currently choose the Maori roll. Thus no change will result.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  70. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    No doubt the Conservatives will borrow NZ First policy, a poll of the wider public, to also attract voters from National.

    Whether this will impact on National policy in a coalition government is hard to say.

    National holds to the consensus on language of partnership, which is designed as a compromise with Maori sovereignty nationalists. It fits with the hope that this greater self respect for Maoridom (via partnership) would, in combination, with iwi settlements and investment in Maori getting into tertiary education work to lift Maori achievement. For the same reason the National party allows trial of Maori delivery of health care.

    However this partnership is not a political one, it is with iwi in regional resource management and in urban area delivery systems, this speaks to the clause allowing continuing chieftainship over their property and communities, but not in national governance. The latter would only come indirectly by say a Maori Party being in a coalition government as part of representative electoral politics.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  71. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    Let’s see
    Rat DNA that pre dates Polynesian settlement
    two distinct breed of “Native Dog”

    Hmmmmm so who were they?

    Kupe having red hair in polynesian records?

    all sorts of references all through their oral records of the

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patupaiarehe

    Patupaiarehe, also referred to as Turehu, Ngati Hotu and Urukehu (red heads), were said to live in large guarded communities.

    <
    Yeah no kidding

    How much DNA evidence was left of the Mori Ori – who were proto polynesian?

    What 1 or two survive – if you didn't know what actually happened there the DNA would not tell your the story
    exterminated DNA does not live to tell a story does it

    What is really ironic is German Missionaries made their way to the Chathams but I think they were too late
    1843 to prevent the Genocide

    This should be read every time they read "The Treaty"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatham_Islands

    <
    Scholarship over the past 40 years has radically revised the model offered a century earlier by Smith: the Moriori as a pre-Polynesian people have gone (the term Moriori is now a technical term referring to those ancestral Māori who settled the Chatham Islands).'[12]
    <

    Sure it has

    All the bleating and whining about the Colonial system what did they want us to apply their system to themselves?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  72. KevinH (1,149 comments) says:

    Chris Finlayson is to be congratulated for reactivating a process that began with Sir Douglas Graham and pushing through with the settlements in the face of vociferous and ill informed opposition often repeated on this blog.
    The settlements will close out a difficult chapter in our history and move the country on into an era where all New Zealanders can play an equal part in building a nation united in purpose and with a shared vision. None of this could of been achieved without the courage that the National Party has exhibited in dealing with the issues that no other government had the will to confront.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  73. Scott Hamilton (297 comments) says:

    ‘How much DNA evidence was left of the Mori Ori [sic]‘

    You’ve got your tenses wrong, old boy, and I suspect there is quite a bit of DNA evidence left, since there are seven hundred Moriori living in NZ, according to the census. If you find yourself in Rekohu you could always visit their marae, and if you’re in Auckland you could go down to Clendon Park and watch their softball team play most summer weekends.

    The irony is that the TOW and the Tribunal you’re trying in your blundering way to criticise actually gave the Moriori some of their land and fisheries back, one hundred and seventy years after the Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama invasion. Go and read the Tribunal’s 2002 Rekohu Report.

    And, for goodness’ sake, Moriori were thought in the 19th C to be Melanesian, not proto-Polynesian. The academic view changed after HD Skinner visited the Chathams in the ’20s and took measurements of bones, collected artefacts and words, and noted the obviously Polynesian nature of Moriori culture and physiology.

    As for the notion that red-haired leprechauns were running round in NZ before Maori, you do know that it was cooked up and has perpetrated by a gang of wacko neo-Nazis and 9/11 Truthers, don’t you? http://books.scoop.co.nz/2008/11/18/no-to-nazi-pseudo-history-an-open-letter/ Watch them out themselves in the debate under that open letter.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  74. itstricky (1,693 comments) says:

    Perhaps PG would like to read Twisting the Treaty, The Great Divide or When two Cultures Meet for plenty more examples.

    So, PG & Tom ask for examples of corrupt treaty claims and the best anyone can come up with is:

    (a) A book labelled as being full of deliberate historical inaccuracies to try to divide the country across racial lines (not to mentioned being authored by a certified);
    (b) A book written by a fully Christian conservative who promotes articles for the tin-foil hat brigade (bet ya he and Colin are good mates) and describes himself as a “professional controversialist”; or
    (c) A book by an author who feeds off of people’s sky is falling self doubt suggesting that the country is going to apartheid if they don’t rush out and shout at someone. This review should be enough to give it away: The book needed editing, to tone down prose more than the message, lose silly sweeping assertions and to clean up many little infelicities and errors – I should think the author probably has a large case of small man’s disease by the sounds of it.

    Right, good response fellas. I’m glad we located those corrupt treaty claims and reported them to Chris Finlayson pronto so he can take all that money back.

    Newsflash! Did you know that not everything you read on Wikipedia is the truth? Similarly, did you know that anyone can publish a book? Sensational, isn’t it? I mean all my life I thought books were the source of all truth.

    Time to stop picking up books that mearly reinforce your own world views. Try something different for a change.

    Well, that’s certainly enough sarcasm for one night. I think I’ve lowered by humor reserves to the bottom of the barrel.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  75. Scott Hamilton (297 comments) says:

    ‘Rat DNA that pre dates Polynesian settlement’

    Bones from a Polynesian rat found in a cave in Hawkes Bay were dated as eighteen hundred years old back in the ’90s.

    Yep, that’s a knockout piece of evidence for the theory that white guys got to NZ before Polynesians.

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  76. itstricky (1,693 comments) says:

    Scott, that was fantastic – although obviously did not read the entire thread!

    This was the take away that I was trying to get across:

    I don’t have a doubt, but there is a following behind this work and its upsetting as the fallacies of it fuel the kind of subtle racism and lack of understanding I run into every day. Its amazing how many people will suddenly become overnight archaeologists and tell me of the ‘proof’ they’ve stumbled across. I only responded because education is important to me, and works like Doutre’s undermine education. One reason is that pseudo-science books are increasingly popular, people are often more inclined to read them than actual archaeological papers as the real thing is much less sensationalized.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  77. Scott Hamilton (297 comments) says:

    And they’ve gotten crazier since that 2008 debate, it’stricky! In the aftermath of the rape and arson convictions handed to Alan Titford, the most famous member of their circle, the ‘whites were here first’ nutters are accusing not only old bogies like Maori and museum curators and archaeologists of being involved in a vast conspiracy – they’re also pointing the finger at the cops and the National MPs, including that well-known pinko Northland MP John Carter. Titford, it seems, had to be put away because of his fearless exposes of NZ’s ancient civilisation of pale-skinned leprechauns.

    The trouble for the nutters is that the conservative rural Pakeha who might be prepared to believe that Maoris and pointy-headed academics are up to dodgy things in the bush are not exactly appreciative of attempts to vilify the police force and conservative National MPs. I suspect they’ve lost all credibility with their target audience – Ben aside, that is.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  78. Jack5 (4,819 comments) says:

    cott Hamilton posted at 12.03:

    The irony is that the TOW and the Tribunal you’re trying in your blundering way to criticise actually gave the Moriori some of their land and fisheries back, one hundred and seventy years after the Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama invasion

    Yet the Taranaki Maori invasion of the Chathams, and their brutal genocide of the Moriori occurred before the Treaty of Waitangi, though apparently the Maori invaders retained Moriori slaves well after the treaty. So the non-Maori majority in NZ paid the lion’s share of reparations for pre-treaty genocide by Maori.

    Scott also posted at 12.17:

    Bones from a Polynesian rat found in a cave in Hawkes Bay were dated as eighteen hundred years old back in the ’90s.

    Can you please give a link to this, Scott. I can’t find it on the Net. It would considerably predate carbon dating of early human remains in NZ.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  79. Jack5 (4,819 comments) says:

    Scott, I note that the Waitangi Tribunal found that:

    … the failure of the Crown to intervene to stop slavery as a result of the invasion of Rekohu by Ngati Tama and Ngati Mutunga in 1835 cost Moriori many lives, and prejudiced later land claims.

    The Tribunal also concluded that “Moriori were Maori, of the same Polynesian stock, but a unique tribe through the development of a distinctive culture as a result of their isolation”.

    So the Tribunal made mainly non-Maori pay for tribal warfare by Maori before the Treaty!

    If the British had landed troops in the Chathams in 1840 and freed the Moriori slaves and seized land to return it to Moriori, doubtless at the cost of many dead Taranaki Maori (the Ngati Tama and Ngati Mutunga), NZ non-Maori would now be paying reparations for the confiscation of the Taranaki Maori invaders’ land.

    Vote: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  80. Jack5 (4,819 comments) says:

    Whoops, re Scott Hamilton and rat bones (my 1.35 post).

    Scott I’ve found your article on the rat bones on your web site.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  81. deadrightkev (328 comments) says:

    Pete George

    “deadrightkev – how many corrupt treaty claims do you have evidence for?”

    I cringe every time I see Finlayson hand over millions of taxpayers hard earned money to an Iwi for grievance and I spit when I see him apologise on behalf of NZ.

    I have spent a number of years researching the origins. Ngapuhi as one example were the core tribe that invited the Crown to NZ for protection twice. They signed the treaty ceding sovereignty forever at Waitangi and here they are effectively holding their hand out for 500 million? What is even more stupid is our dumb ass politicians will hand it over. More socialism from National.

    Its time people removed their “we must settle any just and genuine claims of the past” tinted glasses and woke up. There simply are not any justified claims beyond the template grievance model manufactured by the WT industry. They are simply all lining up for a feed on the basis that “the other tribe got some so why shouldn’t I get some too”.

    Kiwis don’t like what is going on and every poll related to Maori issues gets over 80% against. Is there a political party that will rise up against it? I wont hold my breath. Which party stands for upholding property rights?

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  82. itstricky (1,693 comments) says:

    Kev, So your evidence of corrupt treaty claims comes down to an interrpretation of The Treaty that you read about in a book then…

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  83. itstricky (1,693 comments) says:

    Scott Hamilton – that is hillarious. Incidentally if you are the Reading the Map guy – good blog buddy.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  84. Scott Hamilton (297 comments) says:

    Jack5: the Moriori who took their case to the TOW argued that the Crown colluded in the Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama occupation and genocide by first failing to intervene after 1840 and then awarding virtually all of the land on Rekohu to those groups, and thereby rubber stamping the dispossession of the Maori. Barry Barclay’s film Feathers of the Peace is a very interesting account of the whole process of Moriori enslavement and the collusion of the Crown with Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama. Ironically, by the time the Crown got round to deciding who owned what land on the Chathams, both those iwi had been won over to the pacificism of Te Whiti, and were riding round the islands wearing white feathers. Barclay suggests that the Crown approved the dispossession of Moriori because it was worried that, if they had the land they occupied taken from them, Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama would head back to Taranaki and make trouble there with Te Whiti.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  85. Nostalgia-NZ (5,028 comments) says:

    Scott Hamilton do you know any details of how Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama transported themselves to Chathams?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  86. Scott Hamilton (297 comments) says:

    I think the date on those rat bones is fishy, btw. There have been repeated tests on other bones found from the same site, and much later dates keep emerging. But even if a date of 1800 BP is allowed to stand, the presence of a Polynesian rat in NZ back then hardly provides robust evidence for the claim that Vikings or Celts or Atlanteans got here before Polynesians and founded an advanced civilisation!

    Pleased you like the blog, itstricky! There’s been more on it about Tonga than NZ lately!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  87. Chuck Bird (4,749 comments) says:

    “Is there a political party that will rise up against it?”

    There is Kev. it is NZF and there policy in there 2011 manifesto is to have a binding referendum on the retention of Maori seats. If NFZ get 5% will National and ACT support this policy?

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  88. Scott Hamilton (297 comments) says:

    Nostalgia NZ: they prevailed upon the European owner of a boat to take them from Somes Island, where they were living in exile, having been pushed out of Taranaki by the Musket Wars, to the Chathams. The Musket Wars, and the tremendous upheaval of Maori society those wars were both caused by and influenced, have to be understood as the background to the invasion of Rekohu. Iwi like Ngati Mutnga needed guns to survive, and to get guns they needed cash, which they could only acquire by offering agricultural goods and other primary produce to the new palangi settlements in the Pacific. To grow sufficient quantities of crops like potatoes they needed slaves in unprecedented numbers. After taking Rekohu and enslaving the Moriori Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama exported potatoes in very large quantities to Wellington, Sydney, and even San Francisco. So the invasion of Rekohu has to be set in the context of the explosive impact of modernity on early 19th C NZ. That’s why I disagree with Paul Moon when he characterises the Musket Wars and events like the invasion of Rekohu as windows into pre-contact Maori culture:
    http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2009/05/paul-moon-condemns-celtic-new-zealand.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  89. Pete George (23,296 comments) says:

    @deadrightkev

    No proof of corruption produced yet.

    Which party stands for upholding property rights?

    What property rights are you referring to?

    Are you aware that many of the treaty claims are upholding property rights? And only paying a fraction of the amount of land and value that was illegally confiscated off Maori after the Treaty was signed? Do you think full values should be paid out?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  90. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    I think the date on those rat bones is fishy, btw. There have been repeated tests on other bones found from the same site, and much later dates keep emerging. But even if a date of 1800 BP is allowed to stand, the presence of a Polynesian rat in NZ back then hardly provides robust evidence for the claim that Vikings or Celts or Atlanteans got here before Polynesians and founded an advanced civilisation!

    No there seem to have been small out posts of to use the polynesians oral records of “Kupe” the “polynesian”
    with “red or Auburn Hair” that when he visited “mercury bay” there were “fair skinned aboriginals that were friendly
    so he left some of his people there and sailed on

    These are their records they recorded no “white person” made this up to challenge the treaty.

    No if there were small populations of white people – how do you fancy their chances and given
    the fact we know the moriori existed you could barely prove that scientifically could you

    what is left – some carvings

    Fair skinned red headed mummies have cropped up in odd places in the world
    China South America

    Why do the Easter Island Statues have “Red Top knots”

    Wakey Wakey

    The Rat DNA is one thing but there were two distinct breeds of “Kure” maori dog
    now extinct

    Rats Dogs and various plants are indication of migration

    two types of dogs – hints at but does not prove that there was a prior migration

    Exterminated and Eaten peoples like the MoriOri leave no or very little existance of DNA do you
    when someone is eaten and c r a p p ed out as they were
    I mean Maori crap like everyones does not last that long does it to analyse

    You know they were thinking of attacking another polynesian island other than the Chathams
    but obviously it was a soft target for those big brave warriors peaceful pacifists

    Where are the State Memorials for these now exterminated people?

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  91. Graeme2 (102 comments) says:

    “A book by an author who feeds off of people’s sky is falling self doubt suggesting that the country is going to apartheid if they don’t rush out and shout at someone” (etc etc)
    “Newsflash! Did you know that not everything you read on Wikipedia is the truth? Similarly, did you know that anyone can publish a book? Sensational, isn’t it? I mean all my life I thought books were the source of all truth.

    Time to stop picking up books that mearly reinforce your own world views. Try something different for a change.”

    I suggest Mr Tricky that you should apply this same logic to yourself. I can see through all the sarcasm and the ad hominem attacks as a manipulative attempt to divert attention from inconvenient truths. I hope other readers of this blog also understand this.

    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  92. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    There will always be a great divide between Truth and Lies

    and what is right and what is wrong

    No Treaty or hand over of money will change that

    What we know and what we know and is proven to be complete and utter Lies
    and you don’t need scientific evidence look around you

    Final settlement of Treaty claims will change nothing

    Another grievance will be invented

    While they all mock the Greatest Civilisation in the World British Christianity

    Vote: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  93. adze (1,982 comments) says:

    Scott, it’s clear you’ve invested a lot of time researching modern Polynesian history. But it’s interesting you mention only enslavement on Rekohu/Chathams, and none of the killing or other atrocities. I presume you disagree with Michael King that it took place, or perhaps that it isn’t relevant to your narrative that the invasion was an act of survival in the face of disruptive modern influence.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  94. Scott Hamilton (297 comments) says:

    I used the word ‘genocide’ in the context of the occupation of Rekohu, adze, and those are things that normally involve a bit of killing. Nor would I defend the invasion as some sort of justifiable act in the face of the Musket Wars: the wars and the revolutionary impact of modernity in the early nineteenth century explain rather than excuse it.

    King’s book Moriori: a people rediscovered is possibly, along with his biography of Te Puea, the best thing he ever did, and an essential introduction to the history of the Chathams/Rekohu/Wharekauri. He does a fine job of synthesising and explaining in plain terms the masses of research on Moriori and Chathams history by people like Skinner and the team of archaeologists who dug the islands up in the ’70s. It’s a pity that so many Pakeha, including our friend in this thread Ben Dover, still haven’t gotten their heads around the fact that the Moriori are a living Polynesian people, decades after the publication of King’s book.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  95. Nostalgia-NZ (5,028 comments) says:

    Scott Hamilton, how was the owner of the boat ‘prevailed upon.’ Clearly little was done for nothing in those times and I’ve wondered about the transportation of the two tribes and who it was that were anticipated to gain any benefit. Are you aware of any efforts to control the distribution of muskets by The Crown. I sceptical that there was not some design behind it because it would only be a couple of decades before the land confiscation began. Slightly away from the point, the ‘Fencibles’ were introduced to protect the settlers from Maori who by then were more commonly armed – were there any steps taken to protect ‘peaceful’ tribes at the same time, or had all Maori become the potential enemy?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  96. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    our friend in this thread Ben Dover, still haven’t gotten their heads around the fact that the Moriori are a living Polynesian people,

    and you have not got into your head that their GENOCIDE was a Crime

    I NEVER SAID THEY WERE NOT POLYNESIAN YOU ASSUMED IT LIKE PEOPLE LIKE YOU ASSUME EVERYTHING

    So now like the NZ racist you are you expect us to accept that what happened in the Chathams is OK

    So what you are saying is because they are polynesia the Farming of them like Sheep for Food for cannibalism
    is ok

    You people twist everything anyones SAYS to YOUR OWN AGENDA

    Polynesian OR NOT

    They lived a life style that was more advanced than BOTH MAORI and PAKEHA

    THAT IS THE TRUTH THAT YOU DO NOT WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW isn’t it

    That is the truth you can’t handle that people can get along just fine

    WITH OUT THE CROWN AND WITH OUT MAORI

    AND EVERYONE IS BETTER OFF IF YOU STAY OUT OF THEIR LIVES

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4 You need to be logged in to vote
  97. adze (1,982 comments) says:

    I used the word ‘genocide’ in the context of the occupation of Rekohu, adze, and those are things that normally involve a bit of killing. Nor would I defend the invasion as some sort of justifiable act in the face of the Musket Wars: the wars and the revolutionary impact of modernity in the early nineteenth century explain rather than excuse it.

    Fair enough; my apologies for implying as much, then. It’s just that the event seems very rarely mentioned in public discourse except only in the most mitigating of language; that it was an occupation and not a true genocide, some Pakeha were involved (so it was mostly their fault), and so on.
    By contrast, I spent much of my early life assuming that some dreadful massacre must have taken place at Parihaka. I still remember Tariana Turia in parliament referring to the event as a holocaust. Yet it was only later I discovered what actually took place; still an atrocity, to be sure. But if we were to compare the two events, I’m not sure their respective treatment in public consciousness has been proportionate.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  98. wikiriwhis business (3,883 comments) says:

    ‘Of the big settlements, only really Ngapuhi to go.’

    And that is why there are only really Ngapuhi protestors at Waitangi

    Not pan iwi protest like the fascists on here moan about. Waitangi could not hold that kind of number.

    besides, the protests are winding down and will once Ngapuhi is paid out. And so very curious that the local iwi to Waitangi have had to wait longest. Govt stratedgy no doubt. Absolutely I would say.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6 You need to be logged in to vote
  99. Jack5 (4,819 comments) says:

    The Christchurch Press extends its PC, pro-bro pitch today with a biography piece on O’Regan, the former chief of Ngai Tahu.

    It’s quite interesting, but I note that one source is described as the historian, “… Canterbury University associate professor Dr Te Maire Tau…”

    In fact Tau is director of the Ngai Tahu Research Centre at the university. He is a member of the tribe and was an “expert witness and historian” in its claim. The university staff blurb describes Tau as a specialist historian on oral traditions, tribal genealogies, and “indigenous knowledge systems”.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  100. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    If you people really are interested in these things and polynesian history
    read the journals of the

    Polynesian Voyaging Society and all the reference to

    Red Haired Gingas Sailing the Pacific slowly being edited out of NZ oral History (and worse denied)

    <
    A great red man was he, modeled by the gods. He had bright curly auburn hair, his head and shoulders towered above all other tall men in Tahiti,

    http://pvs.kcc.hawaii.edu/ike/moolelo/tafai.html

    By their own (Maori) records there were pre maori proto polynesian peoples in NZ that is where the legends
    of the Patupaiarehe and Turehu come from

    People who are eaten – like the moriori leave little or no trace of DNA – DO they

    What happened to the MoriOri is proof that extermination can and most likely did happen to any
    race tribe or whatever it was "they described" not me as being pre maori

    I am not saying that is an excuse to not honour the treaty but is a part of NZ and polynesians history
    that is un deniable and almost unexplainable

    They will just say they are fairy legends but European fairy legends (though fictional)
    are based on the displacement
    of actual tribes and peoples

    Story: First peoples in Māori tradition
    Page 5 – Patupaiarehe, tūrehu and other inhabitants

    <
    The following story was written by Hoani Nahe, a Ngāti Maru (Hauraki) elder of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. He writes graphically of a people called the patupaiarehe and the tūrehu, who inhabited the land prior to the arrival of the Polynesian peoples.

    Now listen. When the migration arrived here they found people living in the land – Ngati Kura, Ngati Korakorako and Ngati Turehu, all hapu or sub-tribes of the people called Patupaiarehe. The chiefs of this people were named Tahurangi, Whanawhana, Nukupori, Tuku, Ripiroaitu, Tapu-te-uru and Te Rangipouri. The dwelling places of these people were on the sharp peaks of the high mountains – those in the district of Hauraki (Thames) are Moehau mountain (Cape Colville), Motutere (Castle Hill, Coromandel), Maumaupaki, Whakairi, Kaitarakihi, Te Koronga, Horehore, Whakaperu, Te Aroha-a-uta, Te Aroha-a-tai, and lastly Pirongia, at Waikato. The pa, villages, and houses of this people are not visible, nor actually to be seen by mortal (Tangata Maori) eyes – that is, their actual forms. But sometimes some forms are seen, though not actually known to be these people … Sometimes this people is met with by the Maori people in the forests, and they are heard conversing and calling out, as they pass along, but at the same time they never meet face to face, or so that they mutually see one another, but the voices are heard in conversation or shouting, but the people are never actually seen.

    http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/first-peoples-in-maori-tradition/page-5

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  101. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    I was here first so hand me your Money

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  102. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    How much do we have to pay to have them SHUT UP about the Treaty

    so we can all get on with our lives

    Vote: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 3 You need to be logged in to vote
  103. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    No one Knows or can agree on what it means surely

    No one knows what is going to happen to the money or if it going to any one legitimate

    That means we should GIVE MORE PAY MORE and hand over MORE $$$$

    As soon as possible as a Priority Does it not?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  104. Scott Hamilton (297 comments) says:

    Here’s a tip, Ben: if you’re going to make stuff up about an ethnic group, at least try to spell their name right. You’ve now given Moriori two different spellings, both of them wrong.

    If you can’t be bothered reading HD Skinner’s 1920s study The Moriori of the Chatham Islands or Michael King’s Moriori: a people rediscovered, then you could test your claim that the Moriori were wiped out in the 19th and left no trace of their DNA by contacting the Hokotehi Trust, which runs stuff like the Moriori marae at Kopenga and the softball club in Auckland. I’m sure those folks would be fascinated to learn that they don’t actually exist.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  105. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    Thanks they must be Grateful that you and the Crown let them exist

    What do they get on Waitangi Day?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  106. Scott Hamilton (297 comments) says:

    ‘By contrast, I spent much of my early life assuming that some dreadful massacre must have taken place at Parihaka. I still remember Tariana Turia in parliament referring to the event as a holocaust’

    I think this is an interesting example of the way history can become too politicised and debate about the past can go down a blind alley. If I remember rightly, the Waitangi Tribunal published a report on Taranaki at the end of the ’90s that characterised the aftermath of the destruction of Parihaka – the sequence of events that included the confiscation of land, the evictions of Te Whiti supporters from their homes, the imprisonment of Taranaki Maori in the South Island, where they were held in bad conditions and suffered a high mortality rate, and the marginalisation of Taranaki Maori in the late 19th and early 20th centuries – as a ‘Holocaust’. The use of this word was controversial, and Tariana Turia attracted criticism from her own Labour colelagues when she defended it.

    I can certainly appreciate the argument that the word ‘holocaust’ overstates what happened in Taranaki to Te Whiti’s supporters in iwi like Ngati Ruanui. If we treat holocaust as a synonym for genocide, and define genocide as the organised attempt to wipe an ethnic group off the map, or even the pursuit of policies which have as their inevitable result the wiping of a people off the map, then the Tribunal seems to have been overstating its case. We can say that without denying the injustice at Parihaka and the cruel treatment of Te Whiti’s supporters (I visited a cave in Dunedin where many of them were kept: it was a sad experience).

    Unfortunately, Maori-bashing politicians and media figures have tended not to make a responsible counterargument to the Tribunal’s and Turia’s points, but have instead accused them of saying that the Crown attack on Parihaka was itself a ‘holocaust’. Since it is a fact that nobody died during this attack – there was burning and looting and raping but no killing – the effect of this distortion is to make Turia and the Tribunal seem either comically ill-informed or duplicitous. The whole ‘Turia said that the raid on Parihaka was a holocaust’ line has developed a life of its own, and turns up often on conservative blogs.

    It’s sad that public discourse on NZ history so often follows this kind of road to nowhere.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  107. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    You can’t talk about Maori upon Maori Massacre
    or hey I better spell it right Moriori who were really Maori which somehow makes it ok
    and hey some have survived (so that makes it even better because we can wriggle out of Genocide Claims)
    Phew that makes us the good guys

    I mean I suspect they were going to farm them like sheep

    Sadly in Australia as well many of the Massacres of Aborigines were carried out by their own race (Sad truth)

    ‘holocaust’ is mainly used to describe what happened to the jews and six million is the figure

    sadly many jewish scholars admit that “individual jews” under Stalin were responsible for the deaths of 10,000,000

    Mao who NZ seems to worship is up in the 40,000,000

    they will split tacks and hairs because hey it wasn’t genocide
    just a spout of tribal warfare (and remember you white people are partially to blame for everything)
    so you apologise or else we will up the fee for settlement again
    they were “our people” and that is the way we do things

    Here we are venerating the Maori cloak given to the Mass Murderer Chairman Mao
    now remember it wasn’t Genocide he was just killing some of his own people

    something like 40,000,000 plus
    and he boasted about burying about 460,000 alive

    what “Mana”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10876945

    Happy Waitangi Day -Check the spelling

    Spin it any way you like

    I think you need to be careful who and what you venerate and what scholars you believe

    I don’t think Mao’s cloak has any place in NZ

    I DO NOT RECOGNISE YOUR MANA OR AUTHORITY OR WHAT DO YOU CALL IT NOW
    TINO RANGATIRATANGA ON ANYTHING

    YOURS THE CROWN OR ANY ONE ELSE SUNSHINE

    “He (Qin Shihuang, first emperor of China) buried 460 scholars alive, we have buried 46,000 alive… You intellectuals revile us for being Qin Shihaungs. You are wrong. We have surpassed Qin Shihuang a hundred fold.”

    Yeah I suppose that was Rewi Alleys vision for NZ which I am sure in the not too distant future
    you and your Commie lovin mates will carry out with BELLS AND WHISTLES

    Because what happened on the Chathams is what they are all about

    And the settlements will be used to help prepare for the coming of the commies

    YOU TELL YOUR FRIENDS AND JOHN KEY THIS
    WE ARE NOT YOUR SLAVES

    YOU MIGHT THINK SO AND YOU CAN”T PUSH US AROUND LIKE PEACE LOVIN
    HOW DO YOU SPELL IT

    Moriori

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2 You need to be logged in to vote
  108. Scott Hamilton (297 comments) says:

    ‘What do [Moriori] get on Waitangi Day?’

    Do you support the Moriori Treaty settlement Ben, which gave that people portions of their stolen land back, a share in the fishing industry of the Chathams, and help with cultural projects like the building of a marae and the creation of a dictionary?

    The settlement was based on the Waitangi Tribunal’s 2002 Rekohu report, which explicitly rejected the view that Ngati Mutunga had become the indigenous people of the Chathams after conquering the place, and decried the injustices Moriori had suffered.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  109. Scott Hamilton (297 comments) says:

    ‘sadly many jewish scholars admit that “individual jews” under Stalin were responsible for the deaths of 10,000,000′

    Ah, so, like so many of the folks who put forward the ‘whites were here before the Maoris’ argument, you’re an equal opportunity bigot, who is into anti-Semitic conspiracy theories as well as local conspiracy theories. You’re not Martin Doutre in disguise, are you? http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2008/12/doutre-implodes.html

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  110. Jack5 (4,819 comments) says:

    Scott Hamilton, your posts and references on the Moriori people are interesting.

    After reading them, it still seems to me, that it was an injustice by the Waitangi Tribunal to impose the costs of compensation to the Moriori descendants on the whole of NZ, when the subjugation of the Moriori by Taranaki Maori occurred before the Treaty of Waitangi.

    If the Crown was held to be at fault by not taking the seized land back and returning it to the Moriori, and held at fault for not freeing the slaves held by Taranaki Maori, then surely the Crown could be held at fault for not returning to original iwi land seized by iwi in the Maori musket wars – and earlier.

    By the way I enjoyed your letter to Janman on your blog. The description of the Grey artefacts Grey’s hoard of books and images smelling “of gunpowder and blood” was a reminder of the warlike and bloody beginnings of NZ – since the first arrival of humans. We ain’t the Peaceful Valley that many people think we are.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  111. Scott Hamilton (297 comments) says:

    Hi Jack,

    my understanding is that the Crown was held liable for its actions (and sometimes inaction) after 1840. The argument is that it had a duty to protect its subjects, and failed in that duty, and later actually took the side of the oppressors. I don’t know that the Crown had much influence in Northland, let alone the Chathams, in 1840, but I can certainly see how Moriori might be bitter about the way the 1868 – 1874 Land Court hearings ended in the rubber stamping of the Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama occupation, and the provision of only a few acres of swampy land for the remnant of the Moriori population. That decision probably guaranteed that the decline of the Moriori would continue.

    I think Chathams history is fascinating because it turns the pattern of the rest of NZ history upside down. In the Chathams Maori were the third people on the scene, not the first, and they played the role of the coloniser rather than the colonised. Reading about the Chathams is like reading an alternate history novel. I think that a lot of British historians are fascinated by the World War Two history of the Channel Islands for a somewhat similar reason. As the only part of Britain to be conquered by the Nazis, it lets us explore a lot of ‘what ifs’…

    Paul Janman is an interesting chap! His movie about Tonga’s radical independent school the ‘Atenisi Institute, where I worked in 2013, is a must-see http://www.tonganark.net

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  112. adze (1,982 comments) says:

    Scott, I should clarify that Turia’s speech was only part of what formed my earlier impressions of the events at Parihaka – there has been a plethora of material in the media; in art in particular, and yes in political rhetoric. Turia’s speech only reinforced that.

    Thanks for your thoughts on the topic. One final thing – do you think that there will ever be some kind of accounting for what took place in Rekohu/Chathams as far as Ngati Mutunga and Ngati Tama are concerned – similar to what has taken place between the Crown and various iwi/hapu, with settlements and formal apologies? Do you think those parties feel that such an accounting is even necessary?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  113. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    Ah, so, like so many of the folks who put forward the ‘whites were here before the Maoris’ argument, you’re an equal opportunity bigot, who is into anti-Semitic conspiracy theories

    I do not put it as a Theory the polynesian histories do (not me ) you should examine polynesian voyaging history maori have oral records of about 200 canoe visits that is about 1 every 4 years for the approximate 800 years they have been here or don’t you know this?

    I do not even say the red haired people fair skinned people referred to again and again and again (in their histories and legends) were white they could have been anything (ask maori or read the polynesian voyaging society publications)
    it is just a fascinating part of polynesian history or do you want them to edit their histories to speed up
    your political and religious idealogical and economic agendas

    I do not think if they were white and proven it should even stop the treaty settlement process get it done get it over with and move on

    I am not Anti Semetic I just think each side of any conflict or debate should be scrutinised lest they hand neo facism a home goal
    as this jewish american book did in 1941 (after reading it the Natzis believed they were right and were fighting for their own survival)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Must_Perish!
    Germany Must Perish! is the title of a 104-page book written by Theodore Newman Kaufman self-published in the summer of 1941. The book advocates the genocide through sterilization of all Germans and the territorial dismemberment of Germany.

    I find this Book Quite Ironic

    unfortunately there are two sides to every story

    If you want to get all Legal with us and want to Study Parihaka read
    The Fox Boy
    About NZ’s first Maori Lawyer

    Truth I am afraid is always stranger than Fiction and always comes out

    I think if you dig around and I have visited Parihaka (check I am spelling it correctly)

    They still do not recognise or accept the Treaty of Waitangi

    I do hope settlement of the Treaty allows people to face these Massacres honestly and learn
    from them so Violence ends in NZ

    But that is up to you

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  114. Scott Hamilton (297 comments) says:

    Ben, you claimed that Jews working under Stalin killed ten million people in the Soviet Union, and presented this supposed event as a sort of parallel to the Holocaust Hitler perpetrated. The notion that the Soviet Union was run by Jews, and that the various human rights abuses and massacres that the likes of Stalin perpetrated were the work of Jews is an old Nazi propaganda line. It’s also complete nonsense. Stalin was an anti-Semite who in the last years of his reign actively persecuted Soviet Jews. He executed a group of Jewish doctors, for example, after accusing them of plotting to kill him.

    If I were you I’d be a bit more careful about recycling the propaganda of neo-Nazis.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  115. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    I have read Doutres Book Celtic NZ I don’t believe any of it (it is his theory)

    I do not really have one

    I do know that fair skinned red heads are in the maori and polynesian histories
    like most things in Polynesian History there is more than one correct theory
    there is not one linear correct perfect theory

    What is Kings Opinion on the
    http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/patupaiarehe

    If they are a quant Maori Fantasy so be it

    If you study polynesian History more thoroughly and I have been to the final resting place of the Tainui Canoe

    There are/were many genuine attempts to end War and Violence and start afresh in a new land
    Kawhia translate the ritual of what the name means

    Go and Read the Songs of Waitaha but remember what Michael King Says Goes
    in NZ and throughout the Pacific

    We have all we need to know we need to do no further research or reading.

    Historian Michael King noted: “There was not a skerrick of evidence – linguistic, artifactual, genetic; no datable carbon or pollen remains, nothing – that the story had any basis in fact. Which would make Waitaha the first people on earth to live in a country for several millennia and leave no trace of their occupation.”[2]
    >
    In fact things have been going on so perfectly in NZ for millennia there has never been any attempt
    in NZ History
    to hide or destroy any real criticism of what has or is going on in NZ Still

    Dom Felice Vaggioli: History of New Zealand and Its Inhabitants
    Dom Felice Vaggioli was a Benedictine monk who spent eight years in New Zealand, from 1879 to 1887. On his return to Europe, Vaggioli’s superiors asked him to write about New Zealand and its inhabitants.

    It is odd how the Crown went to great length to destroy every copy of this History around the globe

    Jesus and I thought it was only the Natzis that did book burning

    What else don’t they want you to know and what else have people intentionally hidden or destroyed
    but as we know the best lies are omissions

    Which is why Dom Felice Vaggioli: History of New Zealand and Its Inhabitants
    had to be destroyed

    It is slightly critical of the Crown

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  116. Scott Hamilton (297 comments) says:

    Adze, I haven’t had enough contact with Ngati Mutunga, Ngati Tama and Moriori to know what attitudes are like between those groups now. Certainly, the Rekohu report records attempts by Ngati Mutunga on the Chathams to discredit the Moriori case for compensation, by describing it as ‘pretentious’, and by claiming that Moriori had been long-since assimilated into Maori (isn’t that eerily familiar, as an argument, to what we often hear at kiwiblog!) There was an interesting controversy at Te Papa early this century when an exhibition on Moriori history skated over the 1835 invasion, apparently at the insistence of Moriori themselves. Peter Munz, the distinguished Vic Uni historian, thought this was outrageous, and wrote a polemic which got quite a bit of attention.

    I think things might be complicated by the fact that there are more Ngati Mutunga on the Chathams than Moriori, and many Moriori who live on the main islands of NZ had relatively little contact with their homeland and with many of their fellow Moriori for decades. It was the cultural revival that King’s book both documented and advanced which led to them rediscovering their Moriori identity. I gather that some of the Ngati Mutunga whose ancestors have lived on the Chathams for nearly one hundred and eighty years resent Moriori who have lived all their lives in a place like Auckland having a share in the Chathams fishing industry. Again, there are all sorts of interesting parallels here with Maori-Pakeha relations in the main islands of NZ.

    But I have a somewhat different reason for being interested in how Ngati Mutunga view the past. I suspect that some of them may have taken part in a raid by Australasian slavers on the Tongan island of ‘Ata back in 1863. I blogged a little bit about this here: http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2010/01/island-of-exiles.html (see also the comments thread under the post)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  117. Nostalgia-NZ (5,028 comments) says:

    I see old Scott called Ben a Nazi. Well, what do you know. Must be because Ben is getting all intellectual, learned even – despite that he started out short of a hearing aid.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  118. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND THIS LAND IS MY LAND
    THIS LAND WAS MADE FOR YOU AND ME

    As I went walking I saw a sign there
    And on the sign it said “No Trespassing.”
    But on the other side it didn’t say nothing,
    That side was made for you and me.

    Nobody living can ever stop me,
    As I go walking that freedom highway;
    Nobody living can ever make me turn back
    This land was made for you and me.

    In the squares of the city, In the shadow of a steeple;
    By the relief office, I’d seen my people.
    As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking,
    Is this land made for you and me?

    THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND THIS LAND IS MY LAND
    THIS LAND WAS MADE FOR YOU AND ME

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  119. Scott Hamilton (297 comments) says:

    If folks come out with Nazi golden oldies like ‘jews under Stalin were responsible for the deaths of 10,000,000′ in the middle of what was supposed to be a discussion about NZ history, I tend to raise an eyebrow, NostalgiaNZ.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  120. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    Try singing that one next time you are invited to the marae will you

    >
    If I were you I’d be a bit more careful about recycling the propaganda of neo-Nazis.

    Sure Point taken Comrade
    looks like I had better recycle this fascinating book that the New York times reviewed

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Must_Perish!
    Germany Must Perish! is the title of a 104-page book written by Theodore Newman Kaufman self-published in the summer of 1941. The book advocates the genocide through sterilization of all Germans and the territorial dismemberment of Germany.

    You can read it online truly fascinating

    https://archive.org/details/GermanyMustPerish

    False Sentiment or Courageous decision

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  121. Scott Hamilton (297 comments) says:

    What interest can a self-published book by an obscure figure who had no influence on Allied war policy have, Ben?

    The author’s call for the destruction of Germany and the sterilisation of its people was never made into war policy by the Allies. It was never taken seriously by anyone in the Allied nations.

    The Nazis, though, jumped on the book you mention as ‘evidence’ that Jews were trying to destroy the German people. They used it as another excuse for their genocide.

    You seem to have a very unhealthy interest in Jews. First you accuse them of responsibility for killing ten million people in the Soviet Union and now you recommend this book as though it has some sort of historical importance, and thus seem implicitly to be saying that you share the Nazi view that the Jews were intent on wiping out Germany, and that the Holocaust was a form of self-defence.

    I’d be more interested to know about the ‘Jewish scholars’ who have supposedly proved that Jews killed ten million people in the Soviet Union. Was one of these ‘scholars’ perhaps named David Irving?

    Which group do you hate more, Maori or Jews?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  122. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    Which group do you hate more, Maori or Jews?

    Neither
    I will tell you something a UNIT got within 50-100 years of Adolph Hitler in WW1 (I know this)
    by cross checking German Records that are accurate
    My Grand Father was with them

    I have a personal interest in all of this

    He has part maori descendants / part pakeha descendants in NZ
    they would probably never know this if they were being brought up on
    the Maori only NZ only myopic backward view of history

    or took the approach of not asking awkward questions

    I will dig through and read and verify everyones point of view
    and I do not need your permission

    You need a read a bit more it was you people just like you
    Who gave Adolph the power he wanted

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  123. Jack5 (4,819 comments) says:

    Ben Dover, you are raving. This thread was about Finlayson and Waitangi Treaty settlements but you diverted it to Jews and Hitler. You couldn’t do a better job of sabotaging it if you were an agent-provocateur posting to discredit those challenging the settlement process.

    Your claim that the Soviets were pro-Jewish is Nazi-propaganda tripe. Apart from his notorious doctor’s plot persecuting Jewish medical experts, Stalin had Molotov’s Jewish wife. Zhemchuzhina, arrested, tortured, and imprisoned, accusing her of being part of some sort of international Jewish plot. There were many instances of Stalin’s hatred of Jews.

    Ben Dover, as you are obviously someone who feels warmly about Adolf Hitler and at the same time someone who hates Jews, you should reflect on the great tragic irony that DNA tests of Hitler’s relatives indicate that Hitler was partly of Jewish descent.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  124. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    No you are Raving and are Complete Raving Lunatics

    You are trying to put words in my mouth but the BS is coming from you
    I have to say you have a Great Imagination

    someone who feels warmly about Adolf Hitler (Cuckoo)
    Your claim that the Soviets were pro-Jewish (Cuckoo)
    someone who hates Jews (Cuckoo Cuckoo Cuckooo)
    All your words Your Ideas

    Unfortunately I have to study the prick A Hitler
    it is a bit like listening to you – revolting but something that has to be done
    and yes I had read the stuff about his DNA

    it is you who are claiming all these things

    All I suggest you do is read both sides of History

    You people are Hilarious
    All I can say if My GrandFathers unit had killed him ( A Hitler)
    and they got close
    I honestly think sadly (my research is ongoing)
    that it would not sadly not altered the Course of History much at all

    Before you give me a Lecture on Fascism or Neo Facsim

    How about stopping the Sale of jewellery with Swastikas on it (in NZ)
    in Auckland in particular
    if you are all so concerned about Neo Facism
    Take a walk up High Street Auckland

    Read this before you give me another Lecture
    The Beast Reawakens:Martin A. Lee

    You should as New Zealanders study Zionism or don’t you know
    NZ troops played a crucial role in the formation of the State of Israel

    I expect you are stuck going around in every diminishing circles
    discussing the finer points of the Treaty of Waitangi

    Which you think when it is settled (The Treaty) that your responsibilities have finished
    and all will be well and there will be nothing more to be done

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  125. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    Tino rangatiratanga

    Anyone actually know what this means in practical terms for NZ
    I mean just before you ditch your flag

    This one has been adopted

    Was their a democratic referendum on this?

    or was it just adopted

    ‘absolute sovereignty’.

    not sure could be wrong but it

    ‘absolute sovereignty’.

    sounds a bit neo fascist

    Colours are similar
    lots of people shouting and waving banners

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  126. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    I’d be more interested to know about the ‘Jewish scholars’ who have supposedly proved that Jews killed ten million people in the Soviet Union. Was one of these ‘scholars’ perhaps named David Irving?

    YOU ASKED FOR IT SOME QUOTES JUST FOR YOU

    BUT READ THE FULL ARTICLE

    Read the Full Article it is quite a Courageous hard hitting article
    email him directly if you need to discuss it

    Sever Plocker

    Stalin’s Jews
    We mustn’t forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish

    Lenin, Stalin, and their successors could not have carried out their deeds without wide-scale cooperation of disciplined “terror officials,” cruel interrogators, snitches, executioners, guards, judges, perverts, and many bleeding hearts who were members of the progressive Western Left and were deceived by the Soviet regime of horror and even provided it with a kosher certificate.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

    The Jews active in official communist terror apparatuses (In the Soviet Union and abroad) and who at times led them, did not do this, obviously, as Jews, but rather, as Stalinists, communists, and “Soviet people.” Therefore, we find it easy to ignore their origin and “play dumb”: What do we have to do with them? But let’s not forget them. My own view is different. I find it unacceptable that a person will be considered a member of the Jewish people when he does great things, but not considered part of our people when he does amazingly despicable things.

    Even if we deny it, we cannot escape the Jewishness of “our hangmen,” who served the Red Terror with loyalty and dedication from its establishment. After all, others will always remind us of their origin.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  127. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    And Before you ASK about NZ’s hand in the Formation of the State of Israel

    http://auspost.com.au/about-us/battle-of-beersheba-stamp-release.html

    Australia and Israel release of a Joint Stamp commemorating the Battle of Beersheba
    It is credited as allowing the formation of the State of Israel

    This was the Last Successful Cavalry attack NZ was involved

    Of course as we know cavalry don’t do to well against machine guns

    The way the australia and Israel carry on you would think NZ was not there

    http://www.nzmr.org/beersheba.htm

    WHAT HAS THIS GOT TO DO WITH THE TREATY

    HEY

    DON’T ASK ME

    ASK A PALESTINIAN

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  128. itstricky (1,693 comments) says:

    I suggest Mr Tricky that you should apply this same logic to yourself. I can see through all the sarcasm and the ad hominem attacks as a manipulative attempt to divert attention from inconvenient truths. I hope other readers of this blog also understand this.

    Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz… Of course it is saracasm. It’s blantantly obvious sarcasm. You don’t have to “see through” it. And I’m not trying to manipulate anyone or to play games. Good god man.

    R-e-a-d–m-y–l-i-p-s. You (or Kev, or whomever) are reading, digesting and (by the looks of it) worshipping books written by nut bars. You’re reinforcing your own world views and predjuices by only sampling from one shelf. That shelf has zero credibility. A book can be written by anyone, and nothing makes them true nor gospel (just like The Internet). It’s very easy to blur the lines in a supposedly factual book to just skew things they way you want to say them – and then all the alcolyte nut bars come out of the closet proclaiming “I know it’s true, I read it in a book!”

    Get out, experience the world and stop wallowing in hatred.

    Wow, Ben’s really sent this thread downhill, a?

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  129. Nostalgia-NZ (5,028 comments) says:

    I think Ben is cool, particularly with the frenetic linking of different topics and situations – pretty desperate and unashamedly so.

    The one beaut for me however, is the ‘anxiety’ about treaty money not going to the grass roots but rather to some kind of ‘elite’ who are yet to be identified. This results in a position of ‘don’t’ settle with the ‘deserving’ because the ‘elite’ will whisk away the funds. In other words don’t hand over the money because it won’t help.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  130. itstricky (1,693 comments) says:

    :-) Actually, you’re right, I looked hard at his posts, my eyes went crosseyed and now they’re like abstract art to me – stunning.

    Yes, I don’t quite understand that argument either – How does that argument go down in court? Time for a study in contract law? – It seems to be an argument that’s just repeated ad infinitum by those who’ve read it somewhere else (probably in a “book”).

    Sure, some of them have blown the money because they didn’t know what they were doing but as a reverse example Ngai Tahu would be a good example of a pretty transparent and successful organisation.

    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  131. Ben Dover (526 comments) says:

    he one beaut for me however, is the ‘anxiety’ about treaty money not going to the grass roots but rather to some kind of ‘elite’ who are yet to be identified. This results in a position of ‘don’t’ settle with the ‘deserving’ because the ‘elite’ will whisk away the funds. In other words don’t hand over the money because it won’t help.

    Blatant Lies again when did I say that
    My God you are all pretending that you give a rats about Maori again (stop kidding yourselves will you)
    You still think handing over the money will actually change anything frankly I don’t mind if you do or your don’t
    But one thing I predict is it will change NOTHING long term nothing at all

    Handing over the dosh is all about making you feel good
    and pretending that your responsibilities to your country have somehow been fulfilled

    Who are you people trying to kid

    I did some free work for a Kindergarten in NZ once
    all well received

    I will Leave you with a Quote a?

    “How does this affect our obligations under the Treaty of Waitangi”?

    Jesus maybe they should have given me the treaty to read before I started working for free? a?

    You need to move this discussion into the religious section so you can worship the Treaty a?

    and remember consult the treaty every time your break wind a? because remember the
    mighty wind is under a treaty claim as well a?

    a?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1 You need to be logged in to vote
  132. Graeme2 (102 comments) says:

    Whew what a relief! We now have Mr Tricky to ask whether or not the authors of any books we may wish to read are “nutbars” or not. No need to bother independently verifying any of the facts quoted just ask Mr tricky and he will put us right.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  133. itstricky (1,693 comments) says:

    I know nutbars when I see them and at least the first two are certified.

    If you’re really interested in authentication of facts Graeme2 why don’t you try Scott Hamilton above – he most definitely knows what he’s talking about. Or… is he part of a underground society of left leaning historians who are secretly rewriting our books to give cash to an otherwise unprivledged group of people for no reason at all other than they believe they are Robin Hood? Pretty sure I’ve worked out which of those two options I think he is.

    Instead of spouting complicated latin psychology phrases like ‘ad hominem’ you should learn a simple scientific phrase like ‘Occam’s razor’. It will allow you to quickly come to the conclusion that the 50 tenious, convoluted sentences of book that you’ve just read that twists and turns itself all over the place to prove to you that Maori are taking over the country because some Government dept. has placed a koru on the front page of a publication isn’t actually true.

    Get out, enjoy the world and stop wallowing in hatred.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  134. Graeme2 (102 comments) says:

    Nothing like jumping to a whole lot of conclusions.
    Just for you Mr tricky here’s another phrase from psychology- Projection.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  135. itstricky (1,693 comments) says:

    Ew ew ew, got one for you Graeme. Deflection. Go and research your books, have them certified as gospel. I mean, that was your original argument until you dropped it unceremonously on the floor to goo-goo over psychology terms. You have an expert here on this thread. Anway, good luck with that. And remember: don’t be a hater.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote

Leave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.