The City of God

May 29th, 2014 at 11:00 am by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

is inviting Aucklanders to share in the official opening of its long-promised ‘City of God’ headquarters in Manukau this weekend.

Australian Idol 2009 winner Stan Walker will sing in a free concert in a giant marquee put up yesterday in front of the converted pillow factory in Druces Rd, Wiri, which the church bought in 2010.

The price has not been disclosed but the 3.1ha site has a 2011 rating valuation of $7.65 million.

Guided tours will be offered of the sprawling complex, featuring what is said to be New Zealand’s biggest permanent LED wall, a 24-metre-wide screen which arrived from China last week to form the backdrop for the main 864-seat auditorium.

Giant photographs of founders Bishop Brian Tamaki and his wife Hannah hang in several public spaces in between a school with 170 students, an early childhood centre for 70, a gym, a recording studio and function rooms.

Oh dear. Rather North Korean isn’t it.

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92 Responses to “The City of God”

  1. Judith (7,650 comments) says:

    Oh please! Hasn’t the world learned anything from the experience of previous Cults?

    I sincerely hope this group are not getting any tax breaks? Can someone confirm whether they are or not?

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  2. G152 (157 comments) says:

    Apparently theres big money in the sky fairy business

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  3. Harriet (4,527 comments) says:

    It’s a bit flasher than Burt Potter’s old digs. And a dump compared with the Scientologists.

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  4. lazza (358 comments) says:

    “Kim Jung wot? … Brian”?

    Nah … more Biker- Bishop-Bozo

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  5. Rich Prick (1,557 comments) says:

    I’d politely decline the Kool-Aid.

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  6. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    I kind of love this, though.

    Big! You know?

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  7. peterwn (3,165 comments) says:

    Judith – Destiny Church operates about 22 charitable trusts (many for individual parishes). Therefore donors are entitled to a tax rebate of 33.3c in the dollar for donations – as long as their income (including benefits) is greater than their donations.

    Interestingly, they are dragging their chain on filing accounts for year ending 28 Feb 2013.

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  8. Kimbo (671 comments) says:

    What would the reaction have been if this was a Muslim ghetto…sorry, I mean “complex”?

    Just asking…

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  9. Judith (7,650 comments) says:

    @ peterwn

    Thanks Peter – its great if you can get away with it aye?

    So if I start up my own church, and build a nice big flash house, I can ‘donate’ the cost of that house to my church, who will technically be the owners, and get a 33.3% tax break. What a great scheme !

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  10. alloytoo (434 comments) says:

    “converted pillow factory”

    What was the pillow factory before? Methodist?

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  11. ciaron (1,318 comments) says:

    city of brian – who thinks he’s God.

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  12. RRM (9,475 comments) says:

    Kimbo:

    What would the reaction have been if this was a Muslim ghetto…sorry, I mean “complex”?

    Just asking…

    I remember when the big Buddhist temple in Dannemora was new, and people were all funny about it… “there’s so much terrorism and war in the world, why are we letting THOSE PEOPLE come HERE build THAT THING in our country?

    I eventually gave up trying to have a conversation with my workmates about how the Buddhist Temple was built by BUDDHISTS, and the people who perpetrated 9/11 were MUSLIMS, and those are two separate and different things; it was all just a bit too confusing for some of them :roll:

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  13. Ashley Schaeffer (411 comments) says:

    Last I looked, Destiny Church wasn’t stoning pregnant women or killing people for leaving the church, so unless they’re a drain on the public purse, I couldn’t give two shits what Tamaki and his followers get up to. They tried their hand at politics and the mainstream rejected them (wisely). It’s over now. I don’t understand the continuing obsession some in the media – like John Campbell – have with Brian Tamaki. Are they expecting another Jonestown? Not likely.

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  14. Left Right and Centre (2,823 comments) says:

    Kimbo – I think I dislike both equally in most ways. The Destonians I’d say are harder to spot in public from their mode of dress. They don’t hide their women.

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  15. Peter (1,578 comments) says:

    I hear his ego can be seen from space.

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  16. minus (138 comments) says:

    Will they invite Len Brown? Or will Len invite himself? :-)

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  17. Huevon (192 comments) says:

    Personally, I don’t believe anything I read in mainstream media about Christian churches. The “giant” photos of Tamaki are probably no different to the photo of Pope Francis in my local Catholic parish.

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  18. Judith (7,650 comments) says:

    ciaron (1,208 comments) says:
    May 29th, 2014 at 11:27 am
    city of brian – who thinks he’s God.

    Sorry to be picky, but Brian doesn’t think he is God. Brian uses God to achieve wealth and fame – Brian thinks he is above God.

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  19. OTGO (512 comments) says:

    What Ashley said at 11.18.
    Besides Bishop Tamaki is doing more for Maori than John Hatfield and his cabal of racists could ever dream of.

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  20. Ashley Schaeffer (411 comments) says:

    If only more Maori joined Destiny Church instead of the Mongrel Mob.

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  21. big bruv (13,317 comments) says:

    I also agree with Ashley. I look upon Tamaki’s followers the same as I do those morons who sit playing the pokies for hour after hour, in the end it is a tax on stupidity.

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  22. Harriet (4,527 comments) says:

    “………What would the reaction have been if this was a Muslim ghetto…sorry, I mean “complex”?…..”

    From the government ——- craven appeasement and capitulation! :cool:

    Christianity is about God’s Holyness. It’s not about Brian’s portrait.

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  23. Nukuleka (216 comments) says:

    It’s oh so easy for cynical buggers who do absolutely nothing to promote the welfare of others to sit on their high horses as so many bloggers to this site do and MOCK people who make a positive difference to the lives of others- particularly those marginalised in society.

    How about having an open mind and looking at some of the very real benefits and positive actions that members of this church do.

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  24. Tarquin North (139 comments) says:

    The house of mammon?

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  25. ciaron (1,318 comments) says:

    Brian thinks he is above God.

    Yes, I think there is an element of truth in that statement.

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  26. Nukuleka (216 comments) says:

    big bruv

    A bit like those bloggers that sit at their computers hour after hour wanking (oops, sorry) blogging pointlessly and contributing not one jot to the betterment of society.

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  27. Harriet (4,527 comments) says:

    “……Christianity is about God’s Holyness. It’s not about Brian’s portrait…..” – John Cleese. :cool:

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  28. David Garrett (6,461 comments) says:

    BB: I think you and Ashley have nailed it…While it’s a little said that the members of this cult give their money away to the “Bishop” the only people they seem to be harming is themselves…

    That said, I would love to be a fly on the wall at the Bishop’s house when just he and Hannah were there….you have to wonder whether people like this guy really do believe what they claim to believe…Bishop Brian has of course famously been spotted by Cam Slater in Las Vegas…(he was just there for a gospel meeting…)

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  29. peterwn (3,165 comments) says:

    Judith – you are right. A church (registered as a charity) can build a vicarage/manse/etc as part of its charitable function and let the vicar/pastor/etc live there rent free. The incumbent however needs to pay income tax or FBT on the rental value of that accommodation. The church can also get a GST refund on the construction cost of the portion of the accommodation used as the vicar’s/pastor’s workspace.

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  30. Harriet (4,527 comments) says:

    Nukuleka – a red ticked that by mistake.

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  31. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,798 comments) says:

    Mr Tamaki and his ilk are not my cup of tea but consider this.

    When a Maori or PI family with an income of $45k sees half of it going on booze, smokes and drugs, the cost of a ten percent tithe to the church is a small price to pay for all the help and support which releases the family from its bondage to booze smokes and drugs. They are in profit to the tune of $18k and they have a new lifestyle, new friends and a positive outlook and future. No wonder they think he’s the duck’s nuts.

    My guess is you’ll find this scenario repeated hundreds of times within Destiny Church. If they want to idolise their leader, well that”s their business. Many of them have him and God to thank for changing their lives for the better.

    Now what are all the Kiwibog detractors going to do to improve a few lives of those at the bottom of the heap?

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  32. Kimbo (671 comments) says:

    @ Nukuleka

    How about having an open mind and looking at some of the very real benefits and positive actions that members of this church do.

    Sure, OK.

    But in the interests of transparency and integrity (things Destiny says it promotes), just five questions before I accept your invitation so all the cards are on the table: -

    1. Are you a member of Destiny?

    2. Why, when you asked us to exercise an “open mind” about Destiny, did you confine your advice to only look at “some” of the alleged real benefits and positive actions of its members, instead of examining all of the organisation as a whole – its leadership, ALL its beliefs, ALL its actions, ALL its ways of maintaining unity, ALL its financial practices, etc.?

    3. In line with 2., does Destiny consider it ok for outsiders, AND more importantly its members to criticise Destiny?

    4. If the answer to 3. is “yes”, then what makes you think others round here HAVEN’T exercised an open mind, taken the time to investigate Destiny with an open mind, and found it wanting, and are commenting accordingly?

    5. As you seem to have failed to consider the possibility of 4., does that not open up the possibility that it is you, Nukuleka, rather than others here whom you have accused/implied, who is not open-minded?

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  33. Liam Hehir (103 comments) says:

    The City of God – De Civitate Dei – is one of the great masterpieces of philosophy and a cornerstone of medieval (and thus Western) culture. It lays out a lot of the theory about how we think about government.

    I wonder if the term is really used by Destiny and, if so, whether it’s a deliberate allusion. As a matter of complete pre-judgment, I have never really associated that church with Augustinianism.

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  34. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,798 comments) says:

    David Garrett, I thought you, of all people, might have had enough brains to see past the mantra of ‘harming themselves.’

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  35. stephieboy (2,196 comments) says:

    But isn’t this a similar kind of thing that Conservative Party supporters pine for namely a Theocratic Christian state .?

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  36. Kimbo (671 comments) says:

    wonder if the term is really used by Destiny and, if so, whether it’s a deliberate allusion. As a matter of complete pre-judgment, I have never really associated that church with Augustinianism.

    Highly unlikely. Destiny’s/Tamaki’s theological inspiration lie in the complete antithesis of Augustine: the Health and Wealth gospel of American televangelism, which had its origin in the “common sense” practical Arminian message of the circuit riders of American “frontier religion”, the “burned-over district”, and Holiness preaching, and then in the radio ministries of the likes of Oral Roberts, Kenneth Hagin, and a whole raft of clones.

    Destiny probably took the term (which was also the original source for Augustine) from Revelation 21:1-4 (and following)

    1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

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  37. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Brian Tamaki and his crew are still a lot better proposition than the mosque mob. Also, they don’t get the support of leftie do-gooders like murderous mosquers. Everyone to his own, but in the case of muslims, they don’t belong here and the majority of New Zealand don’t want them here. Cunliffe and Clark were their champions.

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  38. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    Oh look, there’s igm with a bit of poisonous bigotry.

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  39. kowtow (7,650 comments) says:

    Media and giant pictures.

    The big TV here stations do a strong line in personality cult and huge pictures too.TVNZ even tried to push a father and mother on us!

    They could do with a bit of Soviet style “re education” for counter revolutionary, reactionary, capitalist ,degeneracy.

    But it’s not OK for anyone else to do it.

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  40. Harriet (4,527 comments) says:

    “……Now what are all the Kiwibog detractors going to do to improve a few lives of those at the bottom of the heap?….”

    Soften up and give their party vote to the Christian Conservatives I would hope.

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  41. Odakyu-sen (442 comments) says:

    The giant pictures are a worry…

    Still, unless the Destiny Church is bringing harm to people that require public tax dollars to fix, then we should mind our own business and allow others their freedom.

    Protect men from folly and you end up with a nation of fools.

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  42. tspoon765 (14 comments) says:

    As others have pointed out, it’s similar to owning an apple product.

    1. You pay an exorbitant amount for something of dubious value.
    2. You get to belong to a ‘club’
    3. Others get to laugh at you.
    4. Unaffected loved ones consider ‘interventions’

    It all seems above board.

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  43. David Garrett (6,461 comments) says:

    IGM: Good point…or rather points.

    Milky: I asked you yesterday why you think Muslim immigration beyond 2% of the population would have different results from what has happened in Australia and the UK…if you responded I missed it…but I would still very much like to hear your response…

    Adolf F: I genuinely don’t understand what you are getting at…

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  44. Kimbo (671 comments) says:

    @ David Garrett

    Milky: I asked you yesterday why you think Muslim immigration beyond 2% of the population would have different results from what has happened in Australia and the UK…if you responded I missed it…but I would still very much like to hear your response…

    DG, you weren’t addressing me, but I noticed our posts were running side by side yesterday, so if you don’t mind, I’ll butt in, and answer your question with the question I asked yesterday (for which, like you, I have not yet received an adequate response): -

    What, based on our current immigration policies, demographics, and birth rates – including among the overwhelmingly Christian Polynesian population, who are one of our largest minority groups – indicates that we are in any real likelihood of experiencing what Britain, Germany and France are currently undergoing, let alone a wholesale Muslim takeover?

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  45. backster (2,081 comments) says:

    While the flamboyant leadership seems a negative, my overall impression of this church with it’s accent on morality, discipline, and compassion is a positive and I wish them well. They do have conservative Principles and I hope Colin Craig seeks their support.

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  46. Harriet (4,527 comments) says:

    Kimbo#

    “…..indicates that we are in any real likelihood of experiencing what Britain, Germany and France are currently undergoing, let alone a wholesale Muslim takeover?….”

    After having lived in Sydney I’m concerned with the level of violence, intimidation ect and the level of appeasement that government affords Muslims once they do get to 2%. It is a matter of serious public safety. Cronulla riots prove that point. Anything beyond 2% is of no real concern – yet.

    No where, unless the government is extremly hardline, do muslims behave when over the 2%.

    Want to talk about where 5-6yld Kiwi girls go to in Indonesia to get their ‘excitable bit’ cut off?

    The Australian Federal place are on the public record saying where kiwi girls get taken to – by their mums! . And aussie girls.

    But the husbands of Muslim wifes don’t go do they? :cool:

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  47. Nukuleka (216 comments) says:

    Kimbo-

    No, not a member of Destiny and know no-one who is. Just someone who thinks that we should all be doing our bit to make the world a bit more pleasant a place in which to live.

    I’m a simple soul, really. Don’t think I have the intellect to deal with all those complex questions you ask. Or perhaps they were meant to be rhetorical (wow, that’s a big word for me to manage.)

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  48. Kimbo (671 comments) says:

    After having lived in Sydney I’m concerned with the level of violence, intimidation ect and the level of appeasement that government affords Muslims once they do get to 2%.

    Thanks, Harriet/Field Marshall.

    So moving from Sydney…what, based on NEW ZEALAND’s current immigration policies, demographics, and birth rates indicates that we are in any real likelihood of experiencing what Britain, Germany and France…and Sydney are currently undergoing, let alone a wholesale Muslim takeover?

    Bearing in mind that, as per my post yesterday, I don’t dispute that there is a potential Muslim threat to New Zealand that requires continual vigilance by both the country, and the Muslim community itself. I’ve been personally heartened by their actions in the Avondale Mosque case.

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  49. Kimbo (671 comments) says:

    @ Nukuleka

    Nope. Not rhetorical (triple word score for you! :) ).

    Just the sort of questions I would encourage ANYONE to ask concerning any organisation – church, political party, incorporated society, business, whatever.

    An “open mind” is a good and useful virtue as long as you remember its ultimate purpose – to close on something worthwhile.

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  50. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    So moving from Sydney…what, based on NEW ZEALAND’s current immigration policies, demographics, and birth rates indicates that we are in any real likelihood of experiencing what Britain, Germany and France…and Sydney are currently undergoing, let alone a wholesale Muslim takeover?

    I spent the last 12 months living in Sydney. Saw no problems with Muslims specifically.

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  51. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    However, I could be persuaded to support legislation that disallows Australians being allowed behind the wheel in New Zealand.

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  52. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    Where abouts in Sydney were you living? Sydney has radically different zones which you don’t have to leave. You could live your entire life on the lower North Shore and just travel into the city and never need to go out West, where you’re more likely to find yourself in Muslim areas, for instance.

    Man, I miss it at times.

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  53. David Garrett (6,461 comments) says:

    Kimbo: You are mixing two different questions: WHETHER we will get a Muslim population at the dangerous level of 2% plus, and What might happen if we did. Those are two quite different propositions.

    We are certainly in the position currently – with Muslims at least than 1% – where there is little to worry about. And as you say, we have the fecund Christian Polynesians breeding away to counteract them…

    So let me ask you the same question I have asked Milky, thus far without a response: IF we got to 2% or 5% Muslims, why would the disastrous results experienced by Germany, France and Britain – and to a lesser extent Australia – not happen here? What makes our country any different?

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  54. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    David,

    I can answer that question on behalf of Kimbo and Mike – because nothing bad can ever happen in New Zealand. We are somehow immune to stuff that happens overseas. That seems to be the underlying belief system.

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  55. Kimbo (671 comments) says:

    No, David.

    I didn’t mix two questions.

    I was simply checking if yours was ever likely to be a real, rather than a hypothetical one. Call me picky, but if I am asked to participate in a moral panic, I do like to know if there is a clear and present danger.

    As I have acknowledged (contra Lucia Maria), Islam remains an issue over which we need to exercise constant vigilance. No, there is nothing to indicate we would be different from the countries you have mentioned.

    However, I take it that your answer to MY question is confirmation our current immigration policies etc., as well as neither privileging nor discriminating against ANY religion, are sufficient, at present, to ensure your scenario remains both hypothetical…and unlikely.

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  56. David Garrett (6,461 comments) says:

    Kimbo: to be quite honest, I don’t know if we currently HAVE a policy on “Muslim Immigration”…do you know? I suspect that -say- an Egyptian doctor – dressed nicely in western attire for his interview – may be let in because of his skills…and without his religion even being an issue.

    I am saying the issue of whether a proposed immigrant is Muslim should be the PRIMARY consideration – and one that disqualifies him or her – so we can preserve the status quo where there are not enough of them to cause a problem.

    I am pretty sure I read the other day that the controversial Imam at the Avondale mosque is a surgeon, but he refuses to become employed, and is a beneficiary. Danger…DANGER..DANGER!!!

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  57. Don the Kiwi (1,599 comments) says:

    DG

    “I am pretty sure I read the other day that the controversial Imam at the Avondale mosque is a surgeon, but he refuses to become employed, and is a beneficiary.”

    Actually that’s not unusual – it’s our medical profession at fault there because they won’t recognise professional qualifications from many nations.
    I know of a highly qualified surgeon who came from Argentina, but is not permitted to perform surgery here, unless and until she goes through medical re-training in NZ, which would cost her a fortune, which she simply cannot afford. So she works as a nurse in a rest home taking care of elderly people.
    At least she is doing something positive – not bludgeing like the imam may be.

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  58. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Kimbo,

    Wellington has a large number of (Muslim) Somali immigrants. I was told by a friend who is friends with a nurse that Wellington Hospital had to change their policies with regards to husbands of newborn babies being allowed to stay overnight with their wives. This is because the Somali men were demanding sex from their wives within hours of them giving birth. Rather than a selective ban on the horny Somalis, the hospital instead stopped all men from staying with their wives and partners overnight after birth.

    I don’t know if that’s still the situation, maybe someone whose wife has recently given birth in Wellington Hospital could clarify, or maybe the staff are able to exercise discretion now as to which men they allow to stay.

    But, the story I just gave shows that NZ is not in the right frame of mind in order to recognise a clear and present danger from Muslims that come from the most backwards of countries, such as Somalia.

    There was a Muslim woman that attacked a pilot on an Air NZ flight a few years back – she may have been a Somali. Yep, she was: Mid-air bomb threat, stabbing drama

    A few months back there were stories of New Zealanders being identified as those who were fighting in Syria (as Islamic insurgents), that could come back home with new found skills. I’m not sure if the Government has done anything to prevent their return. Maybe a few drone strikes could sort them out.

    There most likely is not an absolute danger of a mall being taken over by terrorists (as in Kenya) or churches being bombed (as in Nigeria, Egypt, Iraq .. to name a few where this is a problem) any time soon in NZ, but when it gets to that stage, it’s already too late.

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  59. Kimbo (671 comments) says:

    I don’t know if we currently HAVE a policy on “Muslim Immigration”…do you know? I suspect that -say- an Egyptian doctor – dressed nicely in western attire for his interview – may be let in because of his skills…and without his religion even being an issue.

    That Egyptian doctor may be Coptic.

    Just like that secular looking Indian gentleman may be a Muslim.

    All of which means it is fraught with difficulty to discriminate against individuals because they belong to a particular religion…which we don’t, and I would suggest can’t if we are to preserve our freedoms.

    Instead, the present policy that prospective immigrants must be of value to the nation, and have the capacity and willingness to integrate is doing its job well. Plus, remaining an attractive destination for people of ALL nationalities and faiths negates against the likelihood of any one gaining a significant and disproportionate influence. And based on present migration patterns, I’d suggest ethnic Chinese and Pacific Islanders will continue to out-weigh Muslims.

    The other safeguard is also our non-sectarian constitution that, as I wrote before, neither privileges nor discriminates against ANY religion.

    The rest, as I said, is a matter of eternal vigilance to ensure those standards are maintained.

    Any reason why these are insufficient, or evidence they have been failing? In the absence of “yes”, to either of those questions, I’d suggest your call for Muslims to be disqualified as immigrants because they are Muslims is redundant and unnecessary.

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  60. Kimbo (671 comments) says:

    But, the story I just gave shows that NZ is not in the right frame of mind in order to recognise a clear and present danger from Muslims that come from the most backwards of countries, such as Somalia…A few months back there were stories of New Zealanders being identified as those who were fighting in Syria (as Islamic insurgents), that could come back home with new found skills. I’m not sure if the Government has done anything to prevent their return. Maybe a few drone strikes could sort them out.

    I wonder if we kept an eye on Croatian Catholics who may have left NZ to aid in the latter-day pogroms of the early 1990s?

    I don’t dispute the likelihood of your anecdotes. Yes, eternal vigilance is required. Plus probably more support for refugees who come with lots of baggage, including being traumatised in their homeland before they came. But what you outlined is not PRIMARILY a Muslim problem, IMHO.

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  61. Harriet (4,527 comments) says:

    “……I’d suggest your call for Muslims to be disqualified as immigrants because they are Muslims is redundant and unnecessary……”

    Fine. We just won’t let the Shite and Wasabi ones in then. They’re the most outragous. We’re still giving ‘Muslims’ a fair go – afterall – they all can’t come.

    And afterall, if catholics and protestants can get on in NZ without resorting to ANY level of violence that they do in Ireland, Scotland and Boston – then why can’t Muslims? It’s a violent idealogy isn’t it – Shite Islam I mean?

    I bet the moderates are Sunni.

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  62. David Garrett (6,461 comments) says:

    This is a first…I am agreeing with Lucia….Once we found ourselves having the kind of problems they have in England and France – or even Australia – it will already be too late…

    The fact we cant differentiate between the (relatively) harmless Muslims and the others is no reason to not discriminate….in fact exactly the opposite: it is precisely the reason we SHOULD discriminate against them all…

    How would we know they are Muslim? Most countries have private detectives…and then there is the SIS….if we dont already have agents working overseas then we can bloody well train some…our American friends would no doubt assist…

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  63. mikenmild (10,766 comments) says:

    Maybe Harriet should go and look up the meanings of some terms. Wasabi, for instance. Good for a laugh though Harriet.

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  64. UglyTruth (4,017 comments) says:

    … and the people who perpetrated 9/11 were MUSLIMS …

    FFS it is 2014, you still believe that crock of shit?

    The twin towers were brought down with nuclear devices, there was way too much energy there for jet fuel and a simple gravitational collapse.

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  65. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    David,

    I’m sure we agree on quite a few things. :)

    Kimbo,

    Croation Catholics are unlikely to attack New Zealanders, given that their gripe is against particular people, while as Muslims see the whole world as a fight between Islam and the unbelievers.

    With the internet able to connect would be terrorists to some of the more radical places on earth, we should be worried about all Muslims. For instance, this story from Britain tells how a would be restaurant bomber was recruited by radical Pakistanis:

    But Mrs Reilly says that in 2008 Nicky was radicalised in a matter of weeks by two men in Pakistan via the internet.

    She said: “They were telling him how to make the bomb step my step.”

    She says they told him who to target, and how to target them.

    In the three days before they attack she says they went ‘on and on’ at Nicky with details ensuring he would get it right – but he still did not.

    Mrs Reilly said: “They were telling him he would be in paradise with 44 virgins, and he believed it.”

    And then there’s this story from Australia, where because of the man’s cultural background, he’s not jailed or deported, leaving him to continue stalk potential child victims:

    A SEX predator, protected by his refugee status, must be deported before he abuses more children. He has already made sexual advances towards several young children and apparently thinks he has done nothing wrong because he comes from a different culture.

    Astonishingly, this seems to have been taken in to account by a magistrate who said he would have difficulty in finding the Afghan refugee guilty because of his beliefs. Police dropped charges of child stealing and unlawful assault on a four-year-old girl he was leading away before she realised it was not her father’s hand she was holding.

    This determined predator, who cannot be named for legal reasons, has been put on the sex offenders register over another assault in which he kissed a boy on the neck and rubbed himself against him. These attacks took place at a Geelong sports oval and the Eastern Beach.

    This abuser has since been following children near the Melbourne Sports and Aquatic Centre and a Beaconsfield Parade playground and as well as stalking children leaving shoolss [sic]. One of the worried mothers is TV personality Kate Langbroek who tweeted a the [sic] following alarming warning to other parents: “There’s a pedo hanging around our kids’ school.’’

    Apparently, Radicalized Muslims are better integrated and “better educated than average and also perform better economically and socially”, according to a new study:

    Researcher in Islamism Marco Goli from Metropolitan University College in Copenhagen concludes that radicalized young Muslims are often what one would consider well-integrated: They are better educated than average and also perform better economically and socially, and will therefore be largely able to maintain a double life.

    Discrimination against Muslims wouldn’t be because of bigotry, it would be because of information such as the above that I’ve posted, and more. Which is different from what has occurred in the past with religious discrimination between Catholics and Protestants, which I’m guessing you’re afraid will give a template to radical atheists to discriminate against Christians of all types at some point in the future.

    I personally believe religious freedom is very, very important. However, I also believe that religion underpins culture, and a culture that isn’t strong in it’s own beliefs can easily be overwhelmed. If we take down crosses because Muslims are offended, then we are already in trouble.

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  66. David Garrett (6,461 comments) says:

    Milky: Yes, I thought “wasabi” wasnt quite right!!

    But good that you are back….now you can tell me why you think our experience would be any different from that of England France and Germany or Australia if we allowed our Muslim population to reach 5 or 2% respectively…

    In your own time….

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  67. UglyTruth (4,017 comments) says:

    if we allowed our Muslim population to reach 5 or 2% respectively…

    You don’t have any control on the number of people who becoming Muslims.

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  68. David Garrett (6,461 comments) says:

    Lucia: I agree completely…but which of our present political parties would dare adopt a “No More Muslims” policy? To do so would mean being shrieked down by the left AND the large “L” Liberals…

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  69. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    David,

    It could be done easily, but not directly.

    We could make it a priority to take in only refugees that are persecuted religious minorities in their home countries – that would wipe out most Islamic immigration from backward countries and still help those wanting a better life.

    We could make it difficult to practice the more revolting aspects of Islam, such as making it a jailable offense to take a young girl for a clitorectomy, for instance.

    We could make it easy for Muslims to change religion by protecting them, and passing laws to come down hard on their families if they make threats of death towards them. Not give them a free pass for their religion as Australia seems to have done for the pedophile in my previous comment.

    We could make it illegal to have multiple wives (this could be tricky, we’d have to get clearer on what marriage is and what it is not given our recent gay marriage change).

    In other words, we’d have to think about areas of concern that Muslims exploit in the West and close those loopholes.

    Would anyone do any of the above? Probably not, unless we had some sort of terrorist threat or event here that made everyone demand it.

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  70. David Garrett (6,461 comments) says:

    Lucia: I think you have answered yourself on all the difficulties of controlling Muslims’ within our largely secular society….far better to exclude the bastards in the first place…and I have used the word “bastards” quite deliberately…and in the sense it was used 30 or 40 years ago: an asshole who threatens the peace and tranquillity of our society…

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  71. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    But what is life without challenges, David!

    I would err on the side of caution on a blanket exclusion, because in that direction lies extreme danger for the soul of our country. :)

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  72. David Garrett (6,461 comments) says:

    So what’s your answer? How would you decide what are “harmless” Muslims as opposed to those who pose a real threat?

    As the 9/11 hijackers proved, the bastards can easily shave off their beards and wear western clothes in order to slip under the radar…in fact it appears that Mohammed Ata and his mates went way beyond that in order to appear to pose no threat…

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  73. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    My answer is to not make New Zealand Islamic-friendly, the opposite of which was asked for recently after some sort of Islamic conference .. for the Islamic tourists, you see. We have to stop just following the money.

    As for hijackers of the 9/11 type, we are unlikely to attract their attention. Though, I think in the future the monitoring of what every does on the internet will be essential. Probably goes against many people’s desire for privacy (probably so they can watch porn without anyone knowing), and goes against the direction that the new bill that DPF has posting on.

    But why is privacy important? I always operate on the internet knowing that anything I type or search for could be built into a massive profile of me. Comes with being a computer programmer and database designer and seeing early on what all that information that is stored on us could be used for.

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  74. David Garrett (6,461 comments) says:

    I think you are being a bit of a wuss Lucia..how does “not making NZ Islamic friendly” differ from what I am proposing…viz. no more Muslim immigration??

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  75. big bruv (13,317 comments) says:

    DG

    If Lucia is consistent about banning people who may pose a threat then she should also ensure that no Catholic priest is ever allowed into NZ.

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  76. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    Specially if they never shout at HOBM’s clubrooms bb! :)

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  77. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    Auto da Fe at Waikanae would do it David! :)

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  78. Harriet (4,527 comments) says:

    “…….Fine. We just won’t let the Shite and Wasabi ones in then…..

    …..Maybe Harriet should go and look up the meanings of some terms. Wasabi, for instance. Good for a laugh though Harriet….”

    I couldn’t be bothered looking for the spelling – anyway hot tempered bastards those Muslims Milky. :cool:

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  79. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    I’m a wuss, huh! LOL.

    Ok, they differ in intent and effect.

    We could have no more Muslim immigration and still have NZ changed into a Muslim friendly country to attract the tourists, which then changes the mentality of everyone that lives here. We’ll end up making allowances for Muslims, and before we know it, the Muslim ban on immigration is lifted and no one wants to say boo, because a crazy Muslim could pronounce Jihad on you.

    What we have to do is make it difficult to be a Muslim in NZ that wants to live in a backward tribal society. That will reduce the threat. If you read up on Muslim psychology, they tend to react positively if the host nation is strong and badly if the host nation is weak. Something to do with Allah’s will and all that.

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  80. Don the Kiwi (1,599 comments) says:

    big bruv (12,516 comments) says:
    May 29th, 2014 at 7:54 pm
    DG

    If Lucia is consistent about banning people who may pose a threat then she should also ensure that no Catholic priest is ever allowed into NZ.

    Sorry bigot bruv.
    You’re too late – the catholic Church is now the largest church-going religion in NZ – there’s hundredes of thousandes of us bruv, and we’re coming to take you away – ha ha ho ho heh heh – those little green men in their little white suits are coming to take you away – to the funny farm. :-)

    Where I’m sure you’d be quite at home , bruv.

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  81. Johnboy (14,998 comments) says:

    It’s the nice little friendly men in the black suits and white dog collars that make you funny that we’re more worried about Don! :)

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  82. big bruv (13,317 comments) says:

    Don the Kiwi

    I am quite safe Don, I am an adult. Its the kids who are at risk from Priests.

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  83. Don the Kiwi (1,599 comments) says:

    ‘I am quite safe Don, I am an adult. Its the kids who are at risk from Priests.’

    Dunno about that bruv. The way you carry on, i’d take you for a twelve year old :-)

    Just for you.

    “http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0rgeQ0QD-o”

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  84. David Garrett (6,461 comments) says:

    Don: Yes…I would be careful about defending the men in the clerical collar if I were you…

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  85. Harriet (4,527 comments) says:

    Lucia####

    “….computer programmer and database designer…”

    Lucia I read a previous post a few days ago where you were doing maths and found it relaxing. I don’t. I struggle.

    Other than Khan academy, do you know of any other good maths sites and/or tutorials that is good at explaining the theory of mathmatical concepts.[ explained via finance ect rather than physics ect makes it easier for me]

    And what sequence did you learn maths in, or rather, what sequence would you have prefered to learn it in? [ I know, everyone says....but but but....other areas can be of help to you in finding answers.] I just like order.

    I enjoy maths and want to learn more – I actually am thinking of doing a degree if I can get a more better understanding of the theory.

    I currently use some maths for trading but need more of an understanding for advanced programming of an amibroker trading platform. Your computer backgound in maths subjects is then appropriate for me.

    Thanks very much Lucia. [ you can post it at some other time if you don't currently have the time]

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  86. Harriet (4,527 comments) says:

    ‘I am quite safe Don, I am an adult. Its the kids who are at risk from Priests.’

    Hardly. Those kind have all retired – a decade or two ago.

    Scouts, sports ect is the new ground. Just look at the enquiry in Australia – all and every self imposed regulation has been put in place in the last ten years to stop it from happening again ——- just the excuse the ‘usual sexual type’ have so as to be able to enter those places as trainers and teachers and have access to children. And if they don’t gain access to those places with all their ‘very strict controls’ – then we are all ‘phobes & bigots.

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  87. Lucia Maria (2,208 comments) says:

    Harry, I’ll post a comment in General Debate.

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  88. Harriet (4,527 comments) says:

    Thanks Lucia – I do have to go out so I’ll read it as soon as I return – thanks very much in advance.

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  89. Ryan Sproull (7,033 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    Where abouts in Sydney were you living? Sydney has radically different zones which you don’t have to leave. You could live your entire life on the lower North Shore and just travel into the city and never need to go out West, where you’re more likely to find yourself in Muslim areas, for instance.

    Man, I miss it at times.

    That’s true enough. I was in the Inner West, and didn’t spend much time in any far western suburbs at all.

    I can understand you missing it. Great city – that “city of villages” feel that you’re talking about is a big part of that.

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  90. SPC (5,397 comments) says:

    Harriet, al Qaeda is made up exclusively of Sunni Moslems.

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  91. SPC (5,397 comments) says:

    Countries take in “their share” of the worlds refugees. The share we take will not result in a large number of Moslems or new racial groups here. More of a case of many small groups.

    We have yet to decide on what refugees we take using race or religion as determinants. And there is no need to.

    Just as we do not for skilled workers or investor migrants.

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  92. ChardonnayGuy (1,136 comments) says:

    Yeah, conservative Christian organisations tend to be absurdly leadership-centred. It’s enough to make Mao, Stalin or the Kim dynasty envious. It’s not just Destiny Church, look at the Conservatives and Colin Craig, or Family First and Bob McCoskrie. If the leader is a vainglorious prat, then the organisation tends to suffer.

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