General Debate 10 September 2016

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Chuck Bird

Questions should be asked why the police did not take this nut case’s gun license and guns?

A man who moves in two worlds: The different sides of Quinton Paul Winders

“He’s a different fish, strange,” Kuriger says, recounting a bizarre conversation they had. He talked to me about a murdered girl up the gully. He asked if I found her cellphone in the swamp.”

“He said it was hers, she was from Wanganui and he’d seen her on Crimewatch. Quin said: ‘I found all the clothes and I bundled them up and I put them in the rubbish for the worker to take to police’.

“He said the guy across the road killed her. A man who moves in two worlds: The different sides of Quinton Paul Winders

Kuriger said he was so concerned by some of Winders’ comments that he asked police in Stratford to check him out, and his partner did not feel safe at the property. He felt that Winders was “unstable” and needed psychiatric help.
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September 10, 2016 8:08am
- Andrei
  
  Just you wait Chuck – in a few years this case is going to surpass David Bain as the cause de jour with all the associated smoke and mirrors
  
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  September 10, 2016 8:14am
  - Chuck Bird
    
    Andrei, I do not think so. Does anyone on this blog think he is not guilty?
    
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    September 10, 2016 8:36am
    - kowtow
      
      Hard to tell. There’s been a lot of reported character evidence , but I’ve seen very little direct evidence. Where’s the weapon?
      
      But that could be more a media thing , reporting the salacious gossip rather than hard fact.
      
      Same with this Scarlette business, The media have been very happy to report one side of the story rather than give balanced , informative facts.
      
      Stripper, vagina , lick , money, booze , rugby…….tehehehehehehehehehehe.
      
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      September 10, 2016 9:03am
      - Chuck Bird
        
        Kowtow, you should have more of a read. Although they could not find his 22 the forensics showed the his 22 was very likely to be the one that fired the fatal shot.
        
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        September 10, 2016 9:16am
      - kowtow
        
        Chuck
        
        If they don’t have his rifle how can they say his was the likely weapon?
        I’m not saying he didn’t do it. I’m saying the media focussed on the soft stuff . And are still doing that with these stories about how weird he is.
        Having said that, it is clear there is isn’t a lot of direct evidence against Wilders, again that’s not to say he didn’t do it.
        
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        September 10, 2016 9:21am
      - Chuck Bird
        
        If they don’t have his rifle how can they say his was the likely weapon?
        
        Kowtow, They can and that is the main thing that convinced me. He claims it was stolen but did not report it to the police.
        
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        September 10, 2016 9:33am
    - kowtow
      
      I’m not saying Winders didn’t do it. But all New Zealanders need to be wary of investigators deciding their prime suspect is guilty and then finding the evidence to fit . This snippet is alarming.And indicates that police enquiries were not exhaustive. And perhaps questionable.
      
      http://myinforms.com/en/a/39874123-police-grilled-about-false-claim-made-to-quinton-winders-mother/
      
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      September 10, 2016 10:18am
      - Kimbo
        
        @ kowtow
        
        But all New Zealanders need to be wary of investigators deciding their prime suspect is guilty and then finding the evidence to fit . This snippet is alarming.And indicates that police enquiries were not exhaustive.
        
        “Exhaustive” is an impossibility. “Thorough” is the practical bench mark. The problem with the “it’s such an unlikely motive and the case is entirely circumstantial” is that
        
        1. All circumstantial cases are especially subject to some element of doubt, so you could raise the same potential objections about the police in any of them. Indeed, the allegation of police incompetence and/or corruption is the standard defense playbook, along with dis-crediting the chain of evidence or the physical evidence itself, the credibility of witnesses, and the possibility of an unknown perpetrator. In the case of David Bain, the alleged “other perpetrator” was spelled out. After all, if the “circumstances” are against your client…what else have you got to argue? ?
        
        2. Murder is usually not a logical action, even if it is premeditated and planned over a period of time. Therefore…
        
        3. …in the absence of any other compelling motive to explain the death of a man who did not otherwise appear to have an enemy in the world – and I find it hard to believe that the police would not have zealously sought out any gang involvement as the defense suggested was possible – then one is left with a motive that is usually abhorrent and unthinkable to a reasonable juror well-practiced in their personal lives at exercising everyday civilised restraint.
        
        Sure, as you imply, Winders may not have done it. But that possibility doesn’t also mean he was not rightly convicted after a fair trial. And if the defense think an injustice occurred, it is now their job to prove so through the appeal process. Plus maybe try and “shake it up” in the court of public opinion…
        
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        September 10, 2016 10:40am
      - Chuck Bird
        
        That is a common police tactic. That is acceptable.
        Even if you think it unacceptable that does not get away from the fact that his 22 was highly likely to have fired that fatal shot.
        
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        September 10, 2016 10:43am
- wiseowl
  
  I find reporting like this something to be very wary about Chuck.
  I don’t trust the media at all and one has to try and see through all the bs.
  Further coverage today of the other suspect leaves many more questions.
  I find it hard to believe someone could shoot a guy over such a trivial issue.The media saying the family was obsessed with money as though that was a reason, is also a very opinionated statement .
  
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  September 10, 2016 9:17am
  - Chuck Bird
    
    Have read of this article. It explains how the police linked the missing gun to him. This case will probably be appealed but that will be quickly rejected. The guy is a nut job and should never be released. There will be no one cam paining for him.
    
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/83326433/mongrel-mob-member-admits-he-tried-to-extort-a-colleague-of-george-taiaroa-but-denies-wanting-him-dead
    
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    September 10, 2016 11:14am
    - kowtow
      
      Sorry Chuck, had a read, it explains nuttin’.
      
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      September 10, 2016 11:33am
    - Notsofast
      
      Text from your link Chuck
      
      “””He and his brother visited Pengelly at his house during daylight hours with the intention of getting him to leave town to keep the community safe.
      
      “We went round and tried to extort him, but that didn’t go too well. We put it on him as nice as we could. What I said was, ‘if you give over your house and get the f*** out of here we will get my family to drop the charges on you’. That was the angle. I just wanted him gone.
      
      “He told me he’d ring the police, so we left it at that.” “””
      
      You see at this stage we see 2 things
      1. The gang does not want the police involved, so they contemplate enforcement by other means.
      2. Now Winders has been convicted, they know the case is closed by the police,
      See Lundy, Tamihere, and even MacDonald despite being acquitted.
      
      It is no surprise that this gangster will now talk. And his alibi simply shows that a prospect was engaged. Of course prospects killed Scott Guy accidentally, mistaken identity is commonplace for these intellectual giants.
      I am not saying Winders is innocent, but this whole Pengelly thing is an order of magnitude a more likely explanation as to what happened.
      This guy even explained they would have executed Pengelly if there had been physical contact rather than just exposure to the kid.
      New Zealanders deserve to keep dying at the hands of the gangs, I hate to say it. If they keep allowing these slipshod investigations by morons like the coot in charge of this one, what do they expect?
      
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      September 10, 2016 11:50am
      - wiseowl
        
        Even thinking about this story of the reported gang approach as a separate thing is scary.
        What annoyed tonight on the 3news coverage of the case was the reporter stating that Winders was ‘right wing’ .
        The inference from this statement and other comments he made (the reporter) were truly appalling.
        
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        September 10, 2016 6:22pm
stephieboy

This tweet throws an interesting and fascinating light on the US Presidential campaign . This is especially with the claim Wiki leaks and Julian Assange will deliver the coup de grace against Hillary Clinton this October ,

Kim Dotcom ✔@KimDotcom
I’m not a pirate.
I’m not a fugitive.
I’m not a flight risk.

I’m your Internet Freedom fighter

AND

Hillary’s worst nightmare in 2016!

12:52 PM – 2 Dec 2014

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/09/07/the-origin-of-julian-assange-and-wikileaks-war-on-hillary-clinton.html
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September 10, 2016 8:14am
- nasska
  
  Let’s hope that he has got something that will take Clinton out of the race.
  
  It’ll be the first useful function that Assange has performed in this life.
  
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  September 10, 2016 8:20am
  - stephieboy
    
    with a little help from rim .com , eh ?
    
    More on the” Glenn Reynolds on Hillary ” thread !
    
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    September 10, 2016 8:23am
  - Scott Chris
    
    Why do you hate Hillary Clinton above any other politician nasska? A simple but concise explanation will do.
    
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    September 10, 2016 8:30am
    - Nookin
      
      I have not gained that impression. I thought he was focussing on those politicians aspiring to the office of President of the United States and not “any other politician”. It is a fairly small sample from which to chose.
      
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      September 10, 2016 9:46am
    - Icarus
      
      Why do you hate Trump above any other politician scott? A simple but concise explanation will do.
      
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      September 10, 2016 10:20am
  - Harriet
    
    What – YOU – don’t want a prog running things?
    
    That’ll be the day – once a spineless coward prog, always a spineless coward prog! 😎
    
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    September 10, 2016 8:35am
- Scott Chris
  
  Well Stephie I was kind of neutral on Dotcom up to this point but if the silly slob throws his hat in with Drumpf then let’s just export it.
  
  As for Assange, whilst being similarly ego driven as Dotcom I don’t think he’s as delusional. He doesn’t have anything of significance on Hillary Clinton simply because there isn’t anything significant to know.
  
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  September 10, 2016 8:28am
Scott Chris

Those Winders spoke to recalled conversations, Winders frenetic in his efforts to explain world events through the lens of a conspiracy theorist. The Illuminati, secret controlling groups who influenced world events – grand schemes played out on a global scale.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11706874
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September 10, 2016 8:17am
- itstricky
  
  Is anyone significant missing from KB?
  
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  September 10, 2016 8:30am
  - Harriet
    
    Redbaiter. There’s no one else.
    
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    September 10, 2016 8:36am
  - mikenmild
    
    Shawn Herles?
    Redbaiter?
    Ugly Truth?
    
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    September 10, 2016 8:37am
    - Nookin
      
      Your presentation is equivocal, mm. It almost appears invitational.
      
      Please don’t.
      
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      September 10, 2016 9:47am
  - Scott Chris
    
    I doubt any of our local group of conspiracy theorists has murderous intent. On the other hand I wouldn’t put serial murder past a certain self-loathing homophobe I shan’t mention. 🙂
    
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    September 10, 2016 8:39am
    - itstricky
      
      I think he is quite the opposite as predicted by Haggard’s law.
      
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      September 10, 2016 8:44am
- stephieboy
  
  Scoot Chris , for filling some details that help to explain Winders motivation and actions over an apparently minor incident .
  
  This also from your link ,
  
  “Winders was known in the town – he’d told people he didn’t want anyone talking about him around the time police started asking questions. His presence was felt even though he spent much of his time hidden in a large barn without windows, a building he was styling as a “hunting lodge”.
  
  Inside the lodge were signs that Winders sought to shut himself away from the world. The main barn area was separated from the living quarters by two doors – one a wooden door, the other a steel construction which could be bolted closed.
  
  The land was filled with scrub and goats, which occasionally drew hunters. One of those, Nigel Ford, was on a property neighbouring Winders’ in 2009 when he felt a high-powered rifle shot fly past.
  
  He was out hunting with three boys aged between 13 and 15 and his five pig dogs. He had walked about 800m from his ute across clear land on a farm track at the bottom of a hill neighbouring Winders’ property….”
  
  Ok, his living circumstances and the claim he recklessly fired his rifle towards Nigel Ford and the three boys doesn’ make Winder’s guilty .However, his general state of mind helps us understand why he might have been affronted, insulted and became unhinged over a minor incident at the Stop Go sign .
  
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  September 10, 2016 8:42am
artemisia

Summary of the Colin Craig case to date over at Whaleoil. Quite a lot not reported in the MSM.
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September 10, 2016 8:33am
- Scott Chris
  
  Really? Has the slob dug up more misery or is merely a reflection of his own life?
  
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  September 10, 2016 8:43am
  - DifferentPerspective
    
    Awesome stuff!
    
    Once more proof from the Left as to why they’re in perma-opposition. The best you can come up with to criticise WOBH is to attack his appearance?
    
    /facepalm
    
    But I should say thanks for you doing your bit to keep the current government in power by showing how the alternative is to welcome in spite, hate and bitterness. Oh and for reminding us all why WOBH has such a huge readership (ie because SJWs like you can’t contest the ideas and facts presented there and so you have to resort to insults).
    
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    September 10, 2016 8:58am
    - itstricky
      
      But I should say thanks for you doing your bit to keep the current government in power by showing how the alternative is to welcome in spite, hate and bitterness.
      
      Horse mouth Arden and Tubby Turei beg to differ on that point.
      
      Your Perspective ain’t that Different.
      
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      September 10, 2016 9:20am
    - Scott Chris
      
      I don’t like Slater for a very simple reason. He takes delight in other’s misery, for example, the feral slob’s taunting of a grieving mother.
      
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      September 10, 2016 9:26am
      - itstricky
        
        Exactly. And then he had the tenacity to whine when people got upset and targeted him. And that behaviour repeats over and over again. The ultimate vindictive, narcissistic bully boy.
        
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        September 10, 2016 9:29am
    - Gabby
      
      Yuge readership? You saying his fans are lardos?
      
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      September 10, 2016 12:47pm
  - starboard
    
    normal acidic self today I see ..no luck last night down at the public loos?
    
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    September 10, 2016 10:11am
  - lilman
    
    Do you still wet your bed ?
    
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    September 10, 2016 11:40am
- Icarus
  
  I hoped you washed after “going there”
  
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  September 10, 2016 9:38am
- bringbackdemocracy
  
  A better summary of the situation here;
  http://www.thepaepae.com/why-does-jordan-williams-expose-himself-to-so-much-loathing-contempt-and-ridicule/37233/
  
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  September 10, 2016 9:51am
Paulus

Why am I confused ? I see the Various Women’s Commissioners and Feminists screaming for the blood of all Rugby players after the stripper went ballistics in an interview after her show.

Why does she not want to allow the police to prosecute ?
Why was she drinking in the Bar after the ?show?
Why do we only hear her version – who is behind this? Perhaps the Media ?
As she was working at the time are OSH now involved? Surely she was a dangerous workplace.
What did she earn for this outing – surely the IRD will know .
Did she not get the “extras”money she would normally expected ?
Why was she fired by her “Agency” for breaking the rules – what rules?
I would like to see a full open under oath enquiry not some wishy washy media beatup.

PS -Personally I dislike the Rugby Fraternity, as I believe they have collectively much to answer for in terms of violence in New Zealand. Along with excessive drinking.
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September 10, 2016 8:35am
- SPC
  
  She was never seeking the prosecution of the players (she would gone to police if that were the case), but to call for better behaviour by them when they hire strippers.
  
  But the likely result is that none of the super franchises or provincial teams will hire strippers in future (they might still go to clubs were security keep patrons in line).
  
  So the heads up on proper behaviour in the end is to the club team amateurs.
  
  PS, she broke her employers rules on “extras”.
  
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  September 10, 2016 8:47am
- wiseowl
  
  This whole thing is such a beat up.
  Tew apologising ,all rugby players appear to be dragged in to this net and we see how all the feminists in positions they shouldn’t hold , scream from every quarter holding hands to beat the evil males who are whimpering in their corners.
  Fight back guys.
  
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  September 10, 2016 9:33am
- VicParking
  
  She broke her own employment rules by taking money to let ? Lick? Her pussy. Does that not move her from being an Artist, Stripper to a Prostitute. Nothing wrong with that but lets call a spade a spade. I feel sorry for her now that the rightest, feminist and MSM are taking advantage of her.
  As Mark Twain said “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”
  
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  September 10, 2016 2:13pm
Harriet

Oh so someone reported me for joking with Nasska — now my other comments await moderation……gee thanks.
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September 10, 2016 8:40am
- Scott Chris
  
  Yes it was me Harry, I reported you for being a paranoid dickhead.
  
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  September 10, 2016 8:48am
  - DifferentPerspective
    
    Just like I reported you for being unecessarily rude and resorting to childish name-calling!
    
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    September 10, 2016 8:59am
    - itstricky
      
      Half of KB taken out today; now all suspects in Winders case.
      
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      September 10, 2016 9:22am
    - sam green
      
      Make sure you keep that up then and call everybody on name calling.
      
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      September 10, 2016 6:28pm
  - Icarus
    
    Reported for being paranoid !
    
    A new low is scraped.
    
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    September 10, 2016 9:06am
    - All_on_Red
      
      They really ARE out to get you when you are reported for being paranoid!
      
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      September 10, 2016 9:08am
- mikenmild
  
  No, it was me.
  
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  September 10, 2016 8:49am
- All_on_Red
  
  Scott and Mikey are just messing with you. DPF no doubt has better things to do at this time of the morning than ping you.The ‘awaiting moderation’ thingy is just bug- unless God has a message for you…
  
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  September 10, 2016 9:00am
  - mikenmild
    
    Spoilsport. I’ll report you next.
    
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    September 10, 2016 9:03am
    - All_on_Red
      
      Lol
      
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      September 10, 2016 9:05am
Harriet

Pathetic girls.
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September 10, 2016 8:50am
- mikenmild
  
  I’ve reported that. I report all your comments.
  
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  September 10, 2016 8:51am
  - stigie
    
    Throwing tanty’s and reporting comments…? Good grief what next !~
    
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    September 10, 2016 8:56am
    - mikenmild
      
      Dogs and cats living together?
      
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      September 10, 2016 9:05am
      - Harriet
        
        Gay Aussie Males getting married?
        
        If they don’t get legislation passed Milky…..then I think Gay Aussie Males will just take it on the chin – pun unintended! 😎
        
        Gay kiwi males will then be the ‘new poofters’ – getting ‘married’ and all that goes with it.
        
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        September 10, 2016 9:36am
      - mikenmild
        
        There’s hope for your relationship yet, Harriet.
        
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        September 10, 2016 9:38am
      - Harriet
        
        But Milky, if gays are denied marriage in aussie – then they will just get on with being gay won’t they?
        
        They will still be in a loving gay relationship, and no one is going to see their relationship in any lessor way.
        How by being denied marriage is it going to effect them?
        
        I think it will make them better gays in the long run.
        
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        September 10, 2016 9:55am
    - Paulus Gnome
      
      Goofy being a credible mayor . . . .
      
      Just kidding. . . .
      
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      September 10, 2016 9:44am
stephieboy

“Camerawoman who kicked fleeing refugees charged in Hungary”

A camera operator who was filmed kicking and tripping refugees fleeing Hungarian authorities near the southern border with Serbia, has charged with a ‘breach of peace’.

Petra Laszlo was fired from her job at Hungarian TV station, N1TV after footage of the incident sparked international outrage last September.

Disorderly conduct charges have been filed against Laszlo, according to Hungarian newspaper Magyar Nemzet.

The Public Prosecutor’s Office of Szeged added in a statement that there was no evidence that Laszlo’s actions was a racially motivated hate crime,

https://www.rt.com/news/358560-hungarian-camerawoman-kick-refugees/
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September 10, 2016 8:56am
- Icarus
  
  You mean she assisted the police in the capture of an escaping criminal.
  
  She is also suing the criminal and others for changing their story and lying.
  
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  September 10, 2016 9:02am
  - stephieboy
    
    Icarus , the video in my link clearly shows her tripping up an adult refugee and a child . It was no accident .
    
    Suing ? Source, please ?
    
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    September 10, 2016 9:07am
    - Icarus
      
      Yes your video clearly shows him running from police and involving an innocent child in the crime.
      
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      September 10, 2016 9:42am
  - kowtow
    
    If ever there was evidence that the law only applies to the little people. Here we have the EU allowing migrants to illegally enter their territory , and in so doing encourage more , who drown in their thousands. And who gets charged? A camera woman.
    
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    September 10, 2016 9:09am
Inandout

Another home invasion, this time early today in Matamata. Three slimes attacked the house owner and made off with his possessions. If you can’t be safe in your own home then we have ineffective government, because they can sure as hell bring in strong and effective legislation immediately if they so wished.
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September 10, 2016 9:05am
- Icarus
  
  tangata whenua ?
  
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  September 10, 2016 9:08am
  - Paulus Gnome
    
    Any other suspects?
    
    Thought not.
    
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    September 10, 2016 9:46am
stephieboy

This will stoke the fires of Hillary Clinton paranoia and hysteria

VLAD MURDER PLOT? Vladimir Putin’s chauffeur who died in horror smash ‘was assassinated by Western spies to send a violent message to Russian president’
The unidentified man died when a Mercedes veered from the other side of the road, smashing into it head-on

VLADIMIR Putin’s personal driver was assassinated by “foreign secret service agents”, it has been sensationally claimed.

The unidentified man died when his BMW was smashed into by a Mercedes on a busy motorway in Moscow..”.

,https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1741916/vladimir-putins-presidential-car-driver-who-died-in-car-crash-was-killed-in-political-assassination/
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September 10, 2016 9:08am
- Icarus
  
  That was Obama not Hillary. He hates white people and Hillary is way too sick to do the dirty work.
  
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  September 10, 2016 9:09am
  - stephieboy
    
    Icarus , are you trolling yet again ?The evidence that the President hates white people and plotted this latest ridiculous assassination plot conspiracy theory..
    
    The President’s Cabinet ,
    
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/whitehouse.gov/files/images/Administration/People/Cabinet_800x452.jpg
    
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    September 10, 2016 9:12am
    - Icarus
      
      Sure, his support of BLM as they carried out their demands to kill “crackers and cops”. Their frequent demands to kill whites etc while Obama openly supported them and their goals.
      
      He ran for president on a race card. He made race an issue.
      
      Now provide your evidence Obama is not a racist ?
      
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      September 10, 2016 9:15am
      - stephieboy
        
        Another photo of his Cabinet is telling evidence that he is not racist ,
        
        http://cdn.asriran.com/files/fa/news/1394/8/14/520293_249.jpg
        
        Count the number of white faces among them .
        
        Evidence and facts that he personally directed BLM or whatever to go out and kill cops ? You made the claim . You supply the factual details .
        
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        September 10, 2016 9:20am
      - Icarus
        
        Another photo of his Cabinet is telling evidence that he is not racist ,
        
        http://cdn.asriran.com/files/fa/news/1394/8/14/520293_249.jpg
        
        Count the number of white faces among them .
        
        A bit like showing some slaves cotton picking and pointing out some blacks in the photo as evidence the plantation owners is not racist.
        
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        September 10, 2016 9:33am
    - Inandout
      
      Yes the cabinet is mostly white because he had to choose the most competent available. You can’t (like in NZ) just appoint people on their colour and expect the best performance. Obama is not that stupid, but I still don’t trust his motives.
      
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      September 10, 2016 9:22am
      - stephieboy
        
        Inandout ,but of course you faithfully and unquestionably trust Trump’s motives ?
        
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        September 10, 2016 9:38am
  - All_on_Red
    
    Hillary is WAY to busy speaking to empty chairs to worry about Putin
    http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2016/09/09/photos-embarrassing-turnout-hillary-clinton-keynote-speech-baptist-convention/
    
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    September 10, 2016 9:16am
    - stephieboy
      
      Hillary never claimed her electoral meetings, unlike Trump’s , were Nuremberg styled rallies !
      
      http://cdn.newsbusters.org/styles/blog_body-60/s3/images/Snapshot_42_1.png
      
      Meanwhile, you might like to chew over this tweet I posted earlier ,
      
      Kim Dotcom ✔@KimDotcom
      I’m not a pirate.
      I’m not a fugitive.
      I’m not a flight risk.
      
      I’m your Internet Freedom fighter
      
      AND
      
      Hillary’s worst nightmare in 2016!
      
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      September 10, 2016 9:33am
      - All_on_Red
        
        Trump claimed his rallies were ‘Nuremberg’ style?
        Evidence please
        Which US prison do you think Herr Dotcom will end up in?
        
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        September 10, 2016 9:46am
      - Icarus
        
        When people protested at Obama rallies they were labelled racist by the media ( because opposing someones politics is always racist ?)
        
        When people protested at Trump rallies, Trump was labelled racist by the same media, because people protested.
        
        The logic of the modern left.
        
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        September 10, 2016 9:49am
    - Inandout
      
      And going by the number of those Arabs in white uniforms (sitting in a group), they were obviously bussed in.
      
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      September 10, 2016 9:58am
      - Icarus
        
        Down in Gitmo he has them in Orange uniforms.
        
        While cuddling up to the brutal Sharia law Saudis that make ISIS look like choir boys.
        
        It is what happens when tribal people have power. Its a mess.
        
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        September 10, 2016 10:16am
Reid

…Europhysics, the respected publicaton of the European physics community has pubished an article by scientists who conclude that “the evidence points overwhelmingly to the conclusion that all three [World Trade Center] buildings were destroyed by controlled demolition.” Few American scientists can admit this, because their careers depend on US government and military/security complex research contracts. Independent scientists in the US are a vanishing breed, an endangered species.

The scientists say that in view of their findings, “it is morally imperative” that 9/11 “be the subject of a truly scientific and impartial investigation by responsible authorities.” http://www.europhysicsnews.org/articles/epn/pdf/2016/04/epn2016-47-4.pdf

So now we are faced with a peculiar situation. The scientifically ignorant two-bit punk American presstitutes claim to know more than the editors of the journal of the European physics community and the scientists who did the investigation. Don’t you think it farfetched that ignorant, corrupt, and cowardly American journalists who lie for money know more than physicists, chemists, 2,700 high-rise architects and structural engineers who have called on the US Congress to launch a real investigation of 9/11, firefighters and first responders who were on the WTC scene, military and civilian pilots and former high government officials, all of whom are on record challenging the unbelievable and physically impossible official story of 9/11? What kind of a dumbshit moron does a person have to be to believe that the United States government and its media whores know better than the laws of physics?…

Indeed. Too bad Roberts is so polite he doesn’t really know how to fully describe the people who are so profoundly dumb they haven’t even worked out the official story is physically impossible, but there we are.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2016/09/07/the-tide-is-turning-the-official-story-is-now-the-conspiracy-theory-paul-craig-roberts/
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September 10, 2016 9:19am
- stephieboy
  
  Reid , you might like to begin to explain how that laying the charges for the towers that would of taken at least two months ( with a large number of experts and demolition personnel to lay them )went totally undetected ?
  
  Also, whistleblowers to the controlled demolition that surely Ed Snowden or Julian Assange would have revealed by now ?
  
  Additionally the whereabouts of the 200 + Crews and passengers .Abducted to Area 51 and murdered ?
  
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  September 10, 2016 9:28am
  - Reid
    
    stephie I rather suspected you’d be the first candidate to respond to Roberts’ call.
    
    Firstly I’d just like to point out your persistent habit of discussing topics other than the one under discussion whenever you reply, just makes you look like a complete idiot, so you might want to consider desisting.
    
    On the point however, the purpose of providing a link to the article from Europhysics is to establish that the editors of the journal of the European physics community and the scientists who did the investigation claim that the collapse profile of not just one but all three buildings in NY doesn’t fit the official story, therefore there has to be, according to the laws of physics, some other explanation.
    
    Do you accept the view of the editors of the journal of the European physics community and the scientists who did the investigation?
    
    If not then pray read the article and clinically dissect its claim clause by clause, quoting each clause and then your counter to it, point by point, until you’ve proven through the laws of physics that they are wrong and you are right.
    
    Until you’ve successfully done that stephie, there is absolutely no point whatsover in moving on to discuss any other aspect of those events, such as how they did it.
    
    I’ll await your response with interest. If you reply with anything other than data which clinically dissects that article I’ll take that as an admission you can’t, and since you can’t, you therefore accept that it’s true.
    
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    September 10, 2016 9:54am
    - mikenmild
      
      Just two points, Reid.
      The editors of the journal do not make any such claim. In fact, they state:
      
      This feature is somewhat different from our usual purely scientific articles, in that it contains some speculation. However, given the timing and the importance of the issue, we consider that this feature is sufficiently technical and interesting to merit publication for our readers. Obviously, the content of this article is the responsibility of the authors.
      
      I also think you misstate the qualifications of the authors by generally calling them ‘scientists’. One is a retired particle physicist, another a political scientist. Experts in material science or structural engineering might have more credence.
      
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      September 10, 2016 10:09am
      - Reid
        
        Experts in material science or structural engineering might have more credence.
        
        Well there’s 2,500 of those in architects and engineers for 911 truth mm, go ahead and look at their data.
        
        But again we see, as is always the case with you (and stephie), no comment whatsover on the content.
        
        Do read my 9.54 again, won’t you.
        
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        September 10, 2016 10:43am
notrotsky

Very nice summary of key points from Cam Slater on the Colin Craig debacle for those who are interested.

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2016/09/williams-v-craig-week-1-summary/
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September 10, 2016 9:23am
Icarus

The anti booze activists and revenue gatherers got together to lower the alcohol driving limit.

The result ?

– The road toll went up, way up, after being promised it would go down.

– A mere 52 adults have been caught.

The same happened with the attack on mobile phone use. They told us it was killing lots of people and would prevent hundreds of accidents. Everyday the media blitz would mention mobile phones in relation to accidents. All to get the sheeple to demand they “do something”.

The result ? Accident rate went up .

Why are we not holding our corrupt police to account for this activist lobbying ? Baaaa Baaaa

Oh and look at the spin and propaganda from Stuffed

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/84094819/new-figures-suggest-lower-drinkdriving-limits-have-scared-kiwi-drivers-sober

🙂
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September 10, 2016 9:26am
- Odakyu-sen
  
  The NZ Police should abandon such obviously counter-productive programs.
  
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  September 10, 2016 10:31am
Hajji

“Is anyone significant missing from KB?”

Great.

Kiwiblog has degenerated into a chat group.
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September 10, 2016 9:29am
- mikenmild
  
  Of course it hasn’t. Kiwiblog remains the premier platform for sober and informed discussion of current issues.
  
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  September 10, 2016 9:32am
Icarus

“Great.

Kiwiblog has degenerated into a chat group”

Yeah well that erudite and detailed comment should put things right.
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September 10, 2016 9:36am
Manolo

The elitist philanderer mocks the little people:
http://dailycaller.com/2016/09/09/bill-clinton-mocks-the-coal-people-in-west-virginia-kentucky-for-supporting-trump-video/
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September 10, 2016 9:48am
- Icarus
  
  Yes a bit like the Klarken beasts attack on the West Coasters, the home of the Labour party.
  
  The modern left regard the working masses as ignorant low lives. The modern right is now the party of the workers.
  
  Eg: NZ
  
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  September 10, 2016 9:51am
EAD

Makow speaking truth to power:

http://henrymakow.com/2016/09/The-Jewish-Messiah-is-the-Antichrist.html

There’s a reason the book of Revelations calls them the synagogue of Satan…..
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September 10, 2016 9:51am
- mikenmild
  
  Nazi scum gotta be Nazi scum, I guess.
  
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  September 10, 2016 9:55am
  - Icarus
    
    Its not 1930’s Germany and do not think he is a socialist.
    
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    September 10, 2016 10:14am
    - mikenmild
      
      He describes himself as a ‘national socialist’.
      
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      September 10, 2016 10:25am
      - Reid
        
        And has he explained what he means by that mm or are you assuming you know?
        
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        September 10, 2016 10:49am
- stephieboy
  
  mm, indeed . From EAD’s link this captures the “reasoned and rational “flavour of Makow ‘s drivel ,
  
  “…For decades, the indefatigable Texe Marrs has sounded the alarm. His new book, “The Destroyer” explains why Judaism is a satanic cult, and shows how the demented Kabbalist agenda is prophesied in Revelation. Comparing the Kabbalah with the Bible, Marrs presents 55 Proofs that the Jewish Messiah is indeed Satan. He describes how Christian pastors are enabling catastrophe by their ignorance of the true satanic nature of Judaism.
  
  This satanic cult controls the weapons of mass deception and holds society in its thrall. No one is more in danger than the majority of Jews and Freemasons who are unaware of this plot, but will be blamed for its baneful consequences. ”
  
  IBTW I wonder if Trump or any of his disciples also believes in this stuff ?
  –
  
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  September 10, 2016 10:17am
- SPC
  
  Ever wondered why the Hebrew tradition was to associate adversary and slanderer terms to the cult of the east(ern light). Stan is a term for government Persia eastward (firelight Zoroaster religion) and devil associated with the bridegroom in the cult of firelight (dewali).
  
  Thus Christ the western bridegroom and the politics of obedience or being of the adversary and another marriage bed cult. One of hell firelight rather than light from Zion (you must note the fallen Babylon metaphor being without bridegroom and bride once losing imperial power).
  
  The dualism must remind the Hindu of Vishnu in government and Shiva the rival or challenger (necessary to keep government honest) – today we call this the way of the opposition loyal to good government.
  
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  September 10, 2016 11:04am
Manolo

Her people are asking the crook Hillary to front up:
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/295103-anxious-dems-urge-clinton-to-open-up
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September 10, 2016 9:51am
Keeping Stock

Just in case anyone is wondering, I am NOT Quinton Paul Winders. I do however believe the jury came to the right conclusion, after a lengthy period of deliberation.
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September 10, 2016 9:55am
Scott Chris

Throughout this time, Winders owned a property on the Forgotten Highway between Taumarunui and Stratford at Pohokura. It’s about 10 minutes drive from Whangamomona, east over a saddle from the famous self-appointed republic which once elected a goat called Bill Gumboot as its president.

I must remember to visit and pay homage to His Goatliness, Bill Gumboot. Pure NZ.
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September 10, 2016 9:55am
- Odakyu-sen
  
  There are reasons why Whangamomona has been largely forgotten.
  
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  September 10, 2016 10:37am
  - Inandout
    
    Its a beautiful drive from Stratford to Taumaranui , even though I didn’t get any further than Whangamomona pub, I will do the other half. The pub will issue a ‘passport’ for a fee. The rail bike ride on the old railway track is apparently awesome.
    
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    September 10, 2016 11:00am
Keeping Stock

I’ll bet big bruv is glued to his TV at the moment watching live coverage of the Paralympics on the Duke channel. That’ll be his entree to the All Blacks test in Hamilton tonight.

It may not be to everyone’s liking, but I ( as an aging, overweight couch potato) am inspired by watching people towards whom life has dealt a dud hand triumph over their disabilities. It’s uplifting, and the reaction of New Zealand long jumper Anna Grimaldi on winning her class in the long jump yesterday was especially touching; well done Anna.
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September 10, 2016 9:59am
starboard

More good reading..Perigo, Devoid…

http://www.nzcpr.com/newsletter/
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September 10, 2016 10:01am
- Reid
  
  I just had a thought about Devoid. What if, on the retirement from public life of the former “mother of our nation” you needed someone else, someone who could serve in the unthinking public’s mind as a conscience. Wouldn’t that be useful if you wanted to do some social engineering in any number of areas over time?
  
  Of course you’d need someone who could be manipulated into buying something poisonous without them ever knowing it, someone who isn’t a great thinker. Also someone who has cred in the nation, someone with determination.
  
  So if you wanted someone like that, what better position and person than appoint Devoid to this role, to begin to establish herself as such in the public mind and to get her used to swallowing poison coated as sweetness and sugar, so she never even notices how she’s being used.
  
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  September 10, 2016 10:36am
Kimbo

Open invitation to Scott:

Hey, Scott – it’s the seventh day (you know – the one God rested on after creating the Universe in 6 literal days approximately 6,000 literal years ago)

….so how about you put some time aside and let’s discuss…creationism. Here, let me refresh where we left off on General Debate two days ago:

Ah, back again Scott.

Want to go a second round after your last post on GD yesterday as it raised a number of issues?:

No Kimbo, of course there will be some figurative language. We use the word “sunrise” when scientifically speaking the sun doesn’t actually rise. So no problem with that. But that doesn’t preclude the genesis account being 6 days, literal days nor the rest of the account being accurate.
Why shouldn’t God give us a reliable account of what occurred. If he didn’t which is what you imply then genesis is just an historical artifact that may have meant something to ancient Hebrews but is irrelevant now.

Regarding the use of the word “vault” I see it is in the latest version of the NIV, but not in the 1984 version which I use. The nrsv does use the word dome, the King James and other versions use the word firmament or expanse.
So depends what version of the bible you use. I haven’t seen anything lately from a creationist perspective on the treatment of dome. If I do I’ll come back to you.
September 7, 2016 6:57pm

Simple couple of questions…

Why does it matter “what version of the Bible you use…when, in line with the grammatico-historical exegesis advocated by Reformers such as Luther and Calvin, biblical scholars rely on the original Hebrew to determine what the primeval narrative (Genesis chapter 1 to 11) meant to the original recipients? The Hebrew word raqiya translated alternatively by various versions of the Bible into English as “vault/dome/firmament/expanse” refers to something solid hammered out into shape on an anvil.

Also, if some things in the Genesis accounts are supposedly literal (e.g., the “days” of creation), and – as you have now admitted – some are supposedly figurative (a solid dome sky, “windows of heaven”)…then who decides and how,

…and how can we check they are making those decisions on the basis of Scriptural authority, rather than imposing their own presuppositions and/or interpretive system?

Plus, if the Bible is “scientifically accurate”, but, when it suits, or at least because of that presupposition that automatically means any seemingly non-scientific statement is “figurative”, doesn’t that render the claim…meaningless?

September 8, 2016 12:11pm

And I just thought of another – how could there be a literal “and it was evening, and it was morning” for the first three days of creation…when at that stage there was wasn’t yet a “greater light” i.e., the sun, “to govern the day”?
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September 10, 2016 10:04am
- Icarus
  
  Do you know much about the tooth fairy ?
  
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  September 10, 2016 10:13am
- Odakyu-sen
  
  Don’t forget that the modern Bible is a translation of a translation (of a translation?) of an edited compilation of original texts.
  Interpretation is essential. (Wisely use the brain and freedom of choice that God gave you.)
  
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  September 10, 2016 10:33am
  - mikenmild
    
    Well, if you already believe that God gave your brains and freedom of choice, reading the Bible might just convince you that it is all true!
    
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    September 10, 2016 10:36am
    - Odakyu-sen
      
      All right then (just for you, mikenmild)
      
      “…that your mother gave you.”
      
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      September 10, 2016 10:38am
  - Reid
    
    That’s why wise people use either the Geneva or the KJV o-s. Those are the only two reliable versions.
    
    The reason is there are only two lines of Hebrew/Aramaic manuscripts used for the Old Testament and two lines of Greek manuscripts used for the New Testament. One line is genuine and the other is corrupt. For the Old Testament, the Ben Chaim Masoretic Hebrew Manuscript is genuine, the Ben Asher Masoretic Hebrew Manuscript is corrupt. In the New Testament, the Greek Textus Receptus ‘Received Text’ (sometimes called the Byzantine Text or Traditional Text) is genuine, the Alexandrian Texts (later re-compiled by Westcott & Hort, two Communist Church of England scholars) now called the Westcott & Hort Greek Text are corrupt.
    
    Only the Geneva and the KJV use both the Ben Chaim Masoretic Hebrew Manuscript and Textus Receptus.
    
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    September 10, 2016 10:40am
    - Kimbo
      
      Now why am I surprised you are a Textus Receptus/KJV-only conspiracy theorist too!
      
      None of the so-called “Textus Receptus” texts agree entirely with one another. Indeed no texts do – they can’t, due to the process of human beings transcribing/copying in the pre-printing age. Same applies to claims about the Koran. That may be a problem for Muslims as their doctrine requires a perfectly copied and preserved text, but not for Christians and Jews, e.g., the New Testament uses the Septuagint (LXX – the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) whenever they quoted the Old Testament.
      
      Sure, as much accuracy as possible is the goal and what those who were engaged in the process almost always strived for. Hence all so-called textual traditions agree with one another about 99% of the time. So much for, “you can only rely on…”. Bullshit!
      
      Instead, textual criticism is a much more pain-staking and involved process of weighing and sifting the merits of particular texts and “families of texts”, instead of the cheap pietistic easy-out of “identifying the texts that God must have supernaturally preserved”.
      
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      September 10, 2016 10:53am
  - Kimbo
    
    @ Odakyu-sen
    
    Don’t forget that the modern Bible is a translation of a translation (of a translation?) of an edited compilation of original texts.
    Interpretation is essential. (Wisely use the brain and freedom of choice that God gave you.)
    
    Yes.
    
    What did it say?
    What did it mean (to the original recipients)?
    So what (for us)?
    
    …is the way to best interpret the Scriptures, as with any literature, ancient or modern, from the Bible, Shakespeare,…or a Kiwiblog post.
    
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    September 10, 2016 11:00am
- SPC
  
  One can move on from the literal and or metaphorical beginning, to the literal and or metaphorical ending.
  
  Revelation of the alpha and the omega as it were, or is that all too Greek to the Celt (so known because they left no written word records).
  
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  September 10, 2016 10:37am
  - Kimbo
    
    One can move on from the literal and or metaphorical beginning, to the literal and or metaphorical ending.
    
    Sorry is that a typo as it seems illogical to say something will move on to become…that which it already is. Did you maybe mean
    
    One can move on from the either literal or metaphorical beginning, to the both literal and metaphorical ending.
    
    Or, yet again, have I managed and/or conspired to misunderstand (your) point?
    
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    September 10, 2016 11:55am
    - SPC
      
      No it is not a typo, I said what I meant and meant what I said.
      
      I know of no one who does not use a mix of both literal interpretation and metaphor when they read scripture.
      
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      September 10, 2016 1:47pm
      - Kimbo
        
        OK.
        
        Then as the depth of anyone’s thinking is usually readily revealed by their capacity to rephrase their thoughts with different words, perhaps you’d like to have another go so those of us who are of lesser-intelligence can benefit from your thinking…
        
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        September 10, 2016 1:53pm
      - Kimbo
        
        I know of no one who does not use a mix of both literal interpretation and metaphor when they read scripture.
        
        Indeed. But, to in effect rephrase the questions you’ve thus far declined to answer, who decides what is the precise and valid mix in each and every case
        
        …and how?
        
        Or is “valid”, as per a “valid discerning of the original author(s)’s/editor(s)’s intent” not a matter you think should be considered, and if so….why?
        
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        September 10, 2016 1:56pm
      - SPC
        
        Why, those who were actually lesser intelligent would not comprehend the/any depth involved?
        
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        September 10, 2016 2:00pm
      - SPC
        
        2. What’s the point, you either believe it is inspired scripture or you do not.
        
        If the latter it is just the history of religion and you may respect or not the methodology of academia and subsequent conclusions.
        
        If the former it’s all a matter of whether one’s faith instructs one’s reason, or whether one’s reason instructs one’s faith – and how one can reconcile that with faith that scripture is divinely inspired.
        
        In that then faith determines the test, not academic method.
        
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        September 10, 2016 2:09pm
      - Kimbo
        
        Why, those who were actually lesser intelligent would not comprehend the/any depth involved?
        
        It was based on your previous reply to me, “You of course, misunderstand my point…”.
        
        Clearly you think I’m less intelligent than you when it comes to the caliber of your thinking on this subject – and that may very well be the case! So I am prepared to contemplate that possibility and engage and see what you could teach me on the matter.
        
        But how can I know/learn unless we have some sort of intersection where you use words that bend to my existing understanding, while I also stretch myself to reach yours? 😉
        
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        September 10, 2016 2:17pm
      - SPC
        
        I would have thought it was relatively well known that misunderstanding the points of others is standard practice when politics and religion are discussed, and has nothing to do with intelligence or its lack, but opportunism.
        
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        September 10, 2016 2:24pm
      - Kimbo
        
        2. What’s the point, you either believe it is inspired scripture or you do not.
        
        If the latter it is just the history of religion and you may respect or not the methodology of academia and subsequent conclusions.
        
        If the former it’s all a matter of whether one’s faith instructs one’s reason, or whether one’s reason instructs one’s faith – and how one can reconcile that with faith that scripture is divinely inspired.
        
        In that then faith determines the test, not academic method.
        
        Um, might I suggest that is a false dichotomy. I think that the books of the Bible are God- inspired, whereas the Koran and the Book of Mormon are not…yet I can use the same critical, and grammatico-historical skills and disciplines in an attempt to discern the original author’s intent – irrespetive of whether I have faith in what the text says or not!
        
        I don’t dispute that study of “reader-response”, which has become particularly widespread through post-modernism is a useful way to determine how a text shapes reality. But why does that necessarily invalidate the search for the author’s original intent? Why can’t they both sit side-by-side as mutual, rather than competitive disciplines and endevours?
        
        Plus religious “faith”, be it personal or collective is not sui generis, i.e., springing up in a self-generating manner. It comes within a context that has, at least in part, been informed by religious scholarship of some sort. Certainly few can read and understand the original Hebrew and Greek or classical Arabic of the Bible and Koran respectively, hence the use of scholars who specialise in translation….
        
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        September 10, 2016 2:26pm
      - Kimbo
        
        I would have thought it was relatively well known that misunderstanding the points of others is standard practice when politics and religion are discussed, and has nothing to do with intelligence or its lack, but opportunism.
        
        Indeed. But “standard practice” does not mean “universal”, hence it is presumptuous to assume. For what it is worth, my misunderstanding was genuine. Hence my request to answer the three questions in order that I might discern what you meant.
        
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        September 10, 2016 2:33pm
      - SPC
        
        Who is the author when you believe that the scripture is divinely inspired? Is it then the infallible word of God, or the scribbling of someone who would not have survived in Greek academia?
        
        Marcion had a point, a God worth having faith in, would have written a better OT. Unless the whole point was to present a very fallible work which someone would take the blame for to restore, or at least finally enable, a relationship between man and a now more credible God.
        
        But then some now feel the same way about the NT.
        
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        September 10, 2016 2:53pm
      - Kimbo
        
        Who is the author when you believe that the scripture is divinely inspired? Is it then the infallible word of God, or the scribbling of someone who would not have survived in Greek academia?
        
        Um, again, I would suggest that is a false dichotomy. As per the Scriptures themselves (II Peter: 1:20, 21)
        
        20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture comes from the prophet’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever brought about through human initiative, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
        
        As per Christ, the incarnate Word who is both fully divine and fully human, so also the written Word is fully divine and also…fully human. Jews and Christians do not subscribe to the Muslim/Koranic doctrine of a “human type-writer”.
        
        Oh, yes, and personally I think the word “inspired” is a better descriptor than “infallible” and/or “inerrant” to describe the Scriptures. Hence this thread originated in an attempt to engage with Scott, who would take his necessity for infallibility/inerrancy to the point of 100% scientific accuracy regarding the Genesis accounts of creation and the flood.
        
        Marcion had a point, a God worth having faith in, would have written a better OT. Unless the whole point was to present a very fallible work which someone would take the blame for to restore, or at least finally enable, a relationship between man and a now more credible God.
        
        Maybe. Or maybe Marcion couldn’t properly comprehend the Scriptures’ own doctrine of progressive revelation. As per Jesus in Matthew 19:8
        
        Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so…
        
        But then some now feel the same way about the NT
        
        Sure. But what are your tests that you, me, Marcion, the authors of the biblical texts…or anyone engaged in discourse on the Scriptures is intent on (to quote you again) “serv(ing) their nationalism against others…justify(ing) themselves, their learning etc etc.”?
        
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        September 10, 2016 3:10pm
      - SPC
        
        Yeah I liked that line, Moses allowed you … as if anyone should have their law determined by him. Time to do away with all that.
        
        It’s a pity there were not a few extra one-liners on some of Paul’s writings.
        
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        September 10, 2016 3:44pm
- SPC
  
  Using metaphor as to the days and calendars.
  
  The moon around the earth (month) and the earth around the sun (year), and the sun within the heavens (precessional).
  
  Then another counting – the 4th commandment as to Sabbath day keeping (weeks) and related to the 4th tribe Judah (light from Zion).
  
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  September 10, 2016 10:47am
  - Kimbo
    
    Hmm. I think we have gone through this before, but what stops your association of otherwise disparate literary elements such as above being almost entirely arbitrary and at the whim of the interpreter, when another reader could make other “connections” and see other relevant “metaphors”?
    
    And are you claiming to have discovered the “true” authorial intent, or doesn’t that matter?
    
    Also if it is up to the reader’s interpretation, rather than the author’s intent…what stops me interpreting your Kiwiblog post in any way that seems “right” to me?
    
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    September 10, 2016 11:18am
    - SPC
      
      You of course, misunderstand my point and the fact that universal constants (observable nature) provided the metaphors upon which religion attempted to exploit to confer their attached meaning.
      
      Presumably to make the points you want to make about scripture, academic nicety and what is more the understanding of the history of faith based upon scripture, than religion itself.
      
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      September 10, 2016 11:27am
      - Kimbo
        
        You of course, misunderstand my point…
        
        “Of course”? He he he. Um, I wasn’t so much “misunderstanding” as trying to gain clarification of your “schema” of interpretive principles as it related to my own schema for understanding any piece of writing.
        
        But if you want to get defensive and accuse others of ignorance and/or dishonest intent, well…perhaps you should work on your writing skills a bit more. Those who continually object “that is not what I mean/I am misunderstood” often fail to see they are the cause of the dilemma. Hence…
        
        …and the fact that universal constants (observable nature) provided the metaphors upon which religion attempted to exploit to confer their attached meaning.
        
        Huh? Sorry, I know those “thought-elements” to which you refer mean, but I have no idea what they means in the order/pericope in which you have arranged them.
        
        Presumably to make the points you want to make about scripture, academic nicety and what is more the understanding of the history of faith based upon scripture, than religion itself.
        
        No, I’m just wanting answers to my previously stated questions so I can assess your schema. I’m attempting to remain open-minded, although, like anyone I’ll judge what you say against what I already think and believe and possibly know, and then maybe decide to alter my views if your facts and arguments are sufficiently compelling. But thus far, despite my charitable disposition and attempts to engage in a polite and respectful manner, you’re not even getting to the starting line. Are you arguing that a “theory of religion” should be the prevailing interpretive principle by which the Scriptures are to be interpreted/understood?
        
        Anyway, how about you start by answering my questions…?
        
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        September 10, 2016 11:44am
      - SPC
        
        Some use religion to serve their nationalism against others, some to justify themselves, their learning etc etc. When this happens, common sense is to just leave it there.
        
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        September 10, 2016 1:53pm
      - Kimbo
        
        Some use religion to serve their nationalism against others, some to justify themselves, their learning etc etc. When this happens, common sense is to just leave it there.
        
        OK. Thanks for the response. Um, despite your ready and ironic attempt to (to quote you) “justify” your view as “common sense” can I suggest there are a number of non-sequiturs in that formulation?
        
        You acknowledge “some” use religion for what could be summarised as an “illegitimate” purpose. But as
        
        1. anyone can misuse anything (politics law, psychology, a Kiwiblog post….) for those same purposes, and
        
        2. by your own implication courtesy of your use of the word “some”, not “all” do that with religion
        
        …why does that render the attempt to discern the original authorial intent of biblical texts something best left alone? How do you know that is what they were attempting, until such time as you’ve actually investigated and determined it based on the available facts?
        
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        September 10, 2016 2:09pm
      - SPC
        
        I simply, and in clear English, said it was common sense not to continue to debate – I will now add, specially not with someone who then deliberately distorts that to misrepresent me with claiming common sense to any point of view, mine or any other.
        
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        September 10, 2016 2:18pm
      - Kimbo
        
        I simply, and in clear English, said it was common sense not to continue to debate – I will now add, specially not with someone who then deliberately distorts that to misrepresent me with claiming common sense to any point of view, mine or any other.
        
        Um, you said
        
        When this happens
        
        i.e.,
        
        Some use religion to serve their nationalism against others, some to justify themselves, their learning etc etc.
        
        then
        
        common sense is to just leave it there
        
        …and I merely suggested that as per your own use of the word “some”, rather than “all”, how can you possibly know that was the case with the biblical writers, or anyone for that matter…unless you investigate?
        
        In other words, how do you know if your “common sense” is both “sense” and also all that “common” given we all like to think our perspective is self-evident truth?
        
        Um, you say I’ve misquoted me. Um, care to show me specifically where I have (to quote you again) “distorted” what you have said? I’m trying to engage in a respectful manner but I confess your apparent defensiveness and readiness to accuse me of bad faith is difficult to negotiate…
        
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        September 10, 2016 2:48pm
      - SPC
        
        Oh Kimbo stop reducing yourself to the wounded and offended victim role. You are capable of so much more. Don’t turn yourself into a BLM matter host at Heathrow …
        
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        September 10, 2016 2:59pm
      - Kimbo
        
        Oh Kimbo stop reducing yourself to the wounded and offended victim role. You are capable of so much more. Don’t turn yourself into a BLM matter host at Heathrow …
        
        No, I’m not personally troubled by it. Just trying to clear out what I think are the distractions that have littered this engagement between us to get to the (to quote you again)””point”.
        
        And I note to that end you declined my invitation to show “specifically where I have (to quote you again) “distorted” what you have said?” I take it your decision to decline the invitation means you are now satisfied it did not exist?
        
        If so, great…so how about you engage with the point I made that what gives you the certainty that the biblical authors were (to quote you again) “serv(ing) their nationalism against others…justify(ing) themselves, their learning etc etc.”?
        
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        September 10, 2016 3:18pm
      - SPC
        
        Where did I specify it was bible authors that were doing “it” (in saying “some” “use religion to serve their nationalism against others, some to justify themselves, their learning etc etc.”).
        
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        September 10, 2016 3:26pm
      - Kimbo
        
        @SPC
        
        I am not yet sure to what extent Kimbo believes the bible to be divinely inspired, though he does distinguish it from any other scripture in that sense. He is one of the more scholarly apologists for the faith (whereas I am not a fan of theist revelation), which comes with a confidence in his relative credibility amongst others of faith.
        
        I wasn’t aware that my beliefs were the primary (to quote you again) “point” of our discussion. After all, fairs fair, and maybe it is time for you to answer my original questions, now oft repeated about…
        
        how you interpret the Scriptures in the way you do,…
        
        and if there is no attempt to discern the authorial intent exclusively/primarily/at all, why not
        
        …and irrespective of whether one is a fan of theistic revelation or not, what then stops anyone by the same process playing fast and loose with any piece of writing
        
        …including by implication your own Kiwiblog posts?
        
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        September 10, 2016 4:02pm
      - SPC
        
        Oh so you are sort of saying that your constant misrepresentation of my posts is some sort of tit for tat from you for expressing an opinion about a metaphor (observable nature) used as a base in scripture, that you do not find compelling.
        
        What are you the God scripture on-line police?
        
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        September 10, 2016 4:28pm
      - Kimbo
        
        Careful that you do not stretch out things too far.
        
        He he he. Well at least that’s an improvement on claims your views have been “distorted”. And who accused who of playing the victim around here? 😉
        
        Having read your 11.44 post, I was simply no longer inclined to debate the matter further…
        
        At a certain point there is an awareness that further debate (in the direction that it was heading) was not warranted.
        
        He he he. Love the use of the dogmatic “further debate (in the direction that it was heading) was not warranted” that was just dropped in there. Hmm. Like you said, “some justify…”. Yet you continued engaging in the thread. So not, like your arbitrary yet dogmatic assertions about the meaning of the Scriptures, you can’t follow context? Just a suggestion…
        
        Thus – “some use religion to serve their nationalism against others, some to justify themselves, their learning etc etc. When this happens, common sense is to just leave it there.”
        
        Oh, so it was directed at me. OK. Or is that too “playing the victim”? 😉
        
        Thanks, SPC. An interesting engagement as always with you in he same way moving and/or opaque goal posts provide entertaining, albeit chaotic fun
        
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        September 10, 2016 4:31pm
      - Kimbo
        
        @ SPC
        
        Oh so you are sort of saying that your constant misrepresentation of my posts is some sort of tit for tat from you for expressing an opinion about a metaphor (observable nature) used as a base in scripture, that you do not find compelling.
        
        Careful SPC. That sounds like a victim card. And despite my invitation you’ve yet to give a specific example of where I misinterpreted you.
        
        What are you the God scripture on-line police?
        
        He he he. No, just intrigued and curious and wanting to know why you interpreted it in the way you did, and, notwithstanding your dogmatic and self-evident, indeed assured certainty (“Ever wondered why the Hebrew tradition was…”), whether that interpretation carried any merit IMHO.
        
        But as you’ve (continually) exercised your prerogative not to step up to the plate, I guess I’ll nver know. 😉
        
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        September 10, 2016 4:46pm
      - SPC
        
        Sort of bizarre that you refer to a comment I made in response to an EAD post, that you have not respond to? And then you raise the issue of context.
        
        Not wanting to further debate with someone can be couched in general terms – such as the partisanship of politics and religion or the decline into semantic one upmanship, or point scoring. The meaning is generally well understood – if one wants to keep things polite on a blog or at a dinner party.
        
        Or one can be more to the point, and particular – such as should one have to be accountable to sustained questioning from kimbo when making a comment on bible scripture.
        
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        September 10, 2016 5:46pm
      - Kimbo
        
        @ SPC
        
        Sort of bizarre that you refer to a comment I made in response to an EAD post, that you have not respond to? And then you raise the issue of context.
        
        Um, given I quoted something you said about what “the Hebrew tradition” I wouldn’t have thought it was out of context. More like entirely relevant as indicative of your schema of understanding, just as what you posted
        
        One can move on from the literal and or metaphorical beginning, to the literal and or metaphorical ending.
        
        Revelation of the alpha and the omega as it were, or is that all too Greek to the Celt (so known because they left no written word records)
        
        …when you entered a discussion about…the Book of Genesis.
        
        Not wanting to further debate with someone can be couched in general terms – such as the partisanship of politics and religion or the decline into semantic one upmanship , or point scoring.
        
        Uh huh.
        
        The meaning is generally well understood – if one wants to keep things polite on a blog or at a dinner party.
        
        Sorry, I thought this was a place of General Debate. And since when does an exchange of ideas have to be impolite?
        
        Or one can be more to the point, and particular – such as should one have to be accountable to sustained questioning from kimbo when making a comment on bible scripture
        
        …and as you kept on contributing to the thread I thought you wouldn’t mind. But if you want to “post and walk away” then feel free to ignore my responses. Scott sure has thus far! 😉
        
        Just as I’ll exercise my right to try and engage in a way that I can try and understand what you think and therefore discern if, IMHO, those ideas have merit. You know, like I said, a…debate. Seems to me this is a place where the merits of ideas are tested, and you’ve certainly got some, and you think they are important enough to post…
        
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        September 10, 2016 6:07pm
      - Kimbo
        
        …as well as
        
        Using metaphor as to the days and calendars.
        
        The moon around the earth (month) and the earth around the sun (year), and the sun within the heavens (precessional).
        
        Then another counting – the 4th commandment as to Sabbath day keeping (weeks) and related to the 4th tribe Judah (light from Zion).
        
        Yep, no “Hebrew tradition” there, at all. Or is simply noting that one upmanship and point scoring?
        
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        September 10, 2016 6:20pm
    - Icarus
      
      These guys, talking like make believe is real ^^^
      
      LOL 🙂
      
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      September 10, 2016 2:30pm
      - SPC
        
        Icarus, I don’t blame you for not following the debate, but it makes your comment a little inane.
        
        I am not yet sure to what extent Kimbo believes the bible to be divinely inspired, though he does distinguish it from any other scripture in that sense. He is one of the more scholarly apologists for the faith (whereas I am not a fan of theist revelation), which comes with a confidence in his relative credibility amongst others of faith.
        
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        September 10, 2016 3:09pm
    - Kimbo
      
      @SPC
      
      Where did I specify it was bible authors that were doing “it” (in saying “some” “use religion to serve their nationalism against others, some to justify themselves, their learning etc etc.”
      
      Because you originally posted it (September 10, 2016 1:53pm) in response to my previous post that asked you specific questions about your interpretation of biblical texts/phrases/concepts and their inter-relationship:
      
      SPC
      
      Using metaphor as to the days and calendars.
      
      The moon around the earth (month) and the earth around the sun (year), and the sun within the heavens (precessional).
      
      Then another counting – the 4th commandment as to Sabbath day keeping (weeks) and related to the 4th tribe Judah (light from Zion).
      
      September 10, 2016 10:47am
      —————————————-
      
      Kimbo
      
      Hmm. I think we have gone through this before, but what stops your association of otherwise disparate literary elements such as above being almost entirely arbitrary and at the whim of the interpreter, when another reader could make other “connections” and see other relevant “metaphors”?
      
      And are you claiming to have discovered the “true” authorial intent, or doesn’t that matter?
      
      Also if it is up to the reader’s interpretation, rather than the author’s intent…what stops me interpreting your Kiwiblog post in any way that seems “right” to me?
      
      September 10, 2016 11:18am
      
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      September 10, 2016 3:47pm
      - SPC
        
        Careful that you do not stretch out things too far.
        
        Having read your 11.44 post, I was simply no longer inclined to debate the matter further.
        
        Thus – “some use religion to serve their nationalism against others, some to justify themselves, their learning etc etc. When this happens, common sense is to just leave it there.”
        
        At a certain point there is an awareness that further debate (in the direction that it was heading) was not warranted.
        
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        September 10, 2016 4:17pm
  - Icarus
    
    ” Kimbo stop reducing yourself to the wounded and offended victim role. You are capable of so much more.”
    
    No SPC he is not. Pompously repeating a bunch of superstitious drivel is about his limit.
    
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    September 10, 2016 3:17pm
    - SPC
      
      To be fair, he is of the modern and academia learnt apologetic and is more focused on legitimising the theological source of Christianity (OT and then NT) than scripture (albeit based on scholarship on writing claimed to be divinely inspired). Which is necessary for the religion, and Marcion might add an unfortunate burden.
      
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      September 10, 2016 3:33pm
      - Icarus
        
        The whole narrative is nonsense. The only area for legitimate study is how people come to follow such obvious rot and the effect that has on society.
        
        Not being able to differentiate between fantasy and reality is a mental illness, not an academic pursuit.
        
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        September 10, 2016 3:50pm
      - SPC
        
        Well I suppose one could spin it that
        
        1. man needs to have understanding
        2. nature abhors a vacuum.
        
        So some academic understanding of what established religion (the before writing faith, its existent form and legacy of scripture) serves a purpose.
        
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        September 10, 2016 4:08pm
      - Icarus
        
        The need to create that fantasy world appears to be a basic human weakness.
        
        It seems the feeble minded can not make sense of the world without it, nor can the arrogant and vain deal with their own mortality .
        
        Of course often those promoting religion have the motive of power and control. It is used as a political tool to control the pathetically weak minded.
        
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        September 10, 2016 4:13pm
Keeping Stock

Gold medal and world record to Mary Fisher in the Paralympics pool, and a silver and personal best time to Sophie Pascoe; well done ladies!
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September 10, 2016 10:26am
Manolo

Big bucks for crooked Clinton:
http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/facebook-co-founder-pledges-dollar20-million-to-defeat-donald-trump/ar-AAiHz2p?li=BBqdg4K&ocid=mailsignout
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September 10, 2016 10:28am
Manolo

Multiculturalism at its best:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3781212/Two-families-attacked-youths-offended-female-cyclists-shorts-sparking-fears-France-falling-victim-Islamist-morality-police.html

Two families have come under a violent attack while cycling in southern France, after teenagers insulted two females for wearing sports gear.

The attack, in the port town of Toulon, which French prosecutors said was carried out by a group of youths from a housing estate has sparked claims that the Mediterranean town was an example of areas in France falling victim to Islamist ‘morality police’.
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September 10, 2016 10:37am
- SPC
  
  Simple answer, call these actions hate crimes against women.
  
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  September 10, 2016 10:49am
- kowtow
  
  Austria too. Feel the enrichment.
  
  “A group who were described as underage Afghan migrants from a local asylum centre allegedly sexually harassed the woman and although she tried to make them go away, they redoubled their efforts and attempted to assault her.”
  
  http://www.thelocal.at/20160909/dog-walker-in-afghan-migrant-gang-sex-attack
  
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  September 10, 2016 10:56am
wikiriwhis business

Bruce Cheriton
Facebook
Key is also NOT A NEW ZEALANDER either, so he should book a flight back to his own country The United States Of America and leave us to rebuild our country back to a caring society. For instance 42,000 of our fellow Kiwis are HOMELESS including 1000’s of children and Key wants us all to blame them and not to care coz “he has a plan.” My plan is simple 1. get rid of Key and the rest of the Govt liars,cheaters and uncaring Politicians. 2. Implement a plan to help our fellow Kiwi’s put a roof over their heads and give their families a future. 3. Make sure our laws benefit “the people” first and foremost and stop the fixation on helping business with the Govt’s nutty Business Growth Agenda which mainly benefits foreign Corporate’s and foreign countries. The Key Govt has been an experiment that has failed and the collateral damage to our population is not to be underestimated. Its not just time for change but it is also a time to roll up our sleeves and begin the process of of working hard to save our Rivers(60% polluted so bad they are toxic and causing illness when you drink it). House those who are having a hard time. Pay women an equal pay with men. Pay livable wage. Stop the massive flow of immigrants into NZ during this time of Economic Decay. Rebuild our now third world Health System. Rebuild our now third world education system. Scrap our non democratic Justice System and build a new one that treats everyone the same. Enshrine the Treaty as the basis of our future legislation’s and laws. Make Politicians work for a performance based wage with no “goodies” like free air travel etc. Etc Etc Etc……… TIME FOR CHANGE FOLKS!!!! WE CAN NO LONGER SIT ABOUT EATING THE LIES AND BEING TOLD TO ENJOY THE TASTE.
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September 10, 2016 10:39am
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  More utter nonsense from wikiriwhis business (in Receivership).
  Ignore.
  
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  September 10, 2016 11:58am
- Keeping Stock
  
  If your idol Winston was put on performance-based pay wikiriwhi, he and most of the Winston First caucus would be paying money to the taxpayer each week, not receiving it.
  
  As for John Key not being a New Zealander, what complete and utter bollocks. You have sir, in my ever-humble opinion, lost the plot. Seek help.
  
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  September 10, 2016 12:10pm
Icarus

Al Sharpton Calls For The Killing Of Crackers And Cops

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSfNsGUh940

Al Sharpton Becomes Obama’s Race Ambassador

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/al-sharpton-race-missouri-police/2014/08/22/id/590375/
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September 10, 2016 10:43am
wikiriwhis business

Very interesting interview on Kim Hill this morning speaking on Kiwi involvement in WW1 concerning atrocities by Kiwi’s against Germans. Kiwi’s were strictly told not to take prisoners and to stab throats with forks if necessary. Now we have Key doing US bidding to drag us into war in the ME. We really need to say no. Especially if a conscription comes about. Key needs to be gone before this happens.
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September 10, 2016 10:52am
- kowtow
  
  Yep , progressives always attacking their own.
  Another bloody anniversary , another unsung hero.
  
  http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/tom-kettle-in-memory-100-years-after-death-at-the-somme-1.2786003
  
  “Lt Tom Kettle, B Company, 9th Battalion, Royal Dublin Fusiliers, was killed in action on September 9th, 1916, near the village of Ginchy in northern France at about 5pm of the 71st day of the Battle of the Somme.”
  
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  September 10, 2016 10:59am
Manolo

Clooney & co will not be impressed:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3781260/Pictured-migrant-camp-set-blight-Lake-Como-YEARS-pre-fab-site-300-people-built-heart-Italian-tourist-spot-loved-George-Clooney.html
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September 10, 2016 10:53am
Icarus

Obama defends Black Lives Matter movement as protests heat up
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-defends-black-lives-matter-movement-as-protests-heat-up/
BLM demands killing cops: “Pull your pistol out and ya f*cking bust at em!”
Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ce2_1468281672&comments=1#PO1rjAxd9mUDb6Cp.99

Dallas police shooting: Recap as five officers killed during Black Lives Matter protest
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/live-dallas-shooting-suspect-bomb-8375665
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September 10, 2016 10:53am
- stephieboy
  
  Icarus , that is a far ,far cry from the President endorsing, condoning or conniving in the killing of police officers.
  
  Consider his Dallas Speech for starters with both full text and video,
  
  http://time.com/4403543/president-obama-dallas-shooting-memorial-service-speech-transcript/
  
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  September 10, 2016 11:17am
  - Icarus
    
    Would you have said that if Trump spoke out in support of the KKK while they demanded, and got, the killing of “niggers” and black cops ?
    
    On the weak basis he did not specifically condone it.
    
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    September 10, 2016 11:22am
    - stephieboy
      
      Icarus , answer the question . Where in that Dallas speech and others did the President condone or advocated the killing of police officers ?
      
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      September 10, 2016 11:41am
      - Icarus
        
        Where in Hitlers speech did he condone the mass killing of Jews ?
        
        Where in Mao’s speeches did he condone killing 70 millions Chinese ?
        
        Obama openly supports those who demand the killing of white people. I gave you two examples and there are many more. The boy is a racist who supports racist terrorist groups in the USA.
        
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        September 10, 2016 2:33pm
  - Icarus
    
    Al Sharpton Calls For The Killing Of Crackers And Cops
    
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSfNsGUh940
    
    Al Sharpton Becomes Obama’s Race Ambassador
    
    http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/al-sharpton-race-missouri-police/2014/08/22/id/590375/
    
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    September 10, 2016 11:23am
wikiriwhis business

Land rights potentially stripped under Housing law

Hundreds and thousands of people will be affected by the Housing Legislation Amendment Bill being rushed through parliament. Green Party leader Metiria Turei says those who have rights to lands being taken under the Public Works may not have those rights anymore.

Metiria Turei says, “We are dealing with this bill in urgency, so there will be most if not all of those who have had this offer-back right for land that was gifted to the Crown by them or taken by them those people don’t know that this right is being taken from them.”

The Housing Legislation Amendment Bill is under urgency in an attempt to combat New Zealand’s housing shortage.

Housing Minister Nick Smith says, “This is a bill that will get houses built and rather than a wailing wall of grief about people not being able to have houses, people on this side of the house are prepared to support legislation that will get roofs over people’s heads.”

Under the bill, there are no obligations to offer-back land to former owners under the Public Works Act when it comes to the disposal of state housing land.

Green MP Marama Davidson says, “This is a huge impact including for Māori because the government are rushing this bill through so that they don’t have to give that land back anymore which is the current status quo.”

While the provision does not affect any right of first refusal in relation to land under any Treaty of Waitangi claims settlements Tāmaki Makaurau MP Peeni Henare is concerned for Iwi who are yet to settle their claims with the Crown.

Peeni Henare says, “I feel for my northern relations, the iwi of Ngāpuhi and others who are yet to settle their claims. How will this affect them if the bill is set in stone. How will it affect their lands that have been taken under the Public Works Act.”
https://www.maoritelevision.com/news/regional/land-rights-potentially-stripped-under-housing-law

This along with National voting against affordable housing. I notice Paul Henry didn’t push that against Paula Bennett on Friday. Although he has stated housing is National’s Achilles heel and has even agreed with some Green Party proposals. Coming from Paul Henry that shows how rotten this govt is.
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September 10, 2016 10:57am
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  Get over it you idiot or move to Venezuela.
  
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  September 10, 2016 12:04pm
- Gabby
  
  It’ll get expensive houses built in nice areas.
  
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  September 10, 2016 1:41pm
Fletch

Brendan Malone from Focus on the Family makes a good point in a Facebook post: if “love is love” then why have a mother and daughter in the U.S who are “married” been charged with incest? There is no danger of birth defects or similar.

[..] if you accept the belief that marriage is nothing more than the formalisation of a romantic relationship between two consenting adults, then what possible argument could you make against an incestuous relationship between a mother and her adult daughter?

Using the criteria used to reason that same-sex marriage should be allowed, then there isn’t any reason a mother and daughter can’t be “married” either. “Love is love” isn’t it?

http://kfor.com/2016/09/07/oklahoma-mother-daughter-arrested-after-alleged-incestuous-marriage/
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September 10, 2016 11:11am
Manolo

The savages continue to explode bomb after bomb:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-iraq-blast-idUSKCN11F2S5?il=0

Twelve people were killed late on Friday in two suicide bombings claimed by Islamic State at a shopping mall in eastern Baghdad.
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September 10, 2016 11:21am
- Reid
  
  Yes. The leaders and other citizens of the UK, USA, Saudi Arabia and Israel who’ve enabled this band of thugs since day one will have a lot to answer for on Judgement Day. Won’t they.
  
  RT BTW has a pretty intrepid war correspondent in Alleppo right now who gets so close the baddies are on the opposite of the street from where he is.
  
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  September 10, 2016 11:30am
  - stephieboy
    
    The RT journo is, of course, happy to report the conflict giving due weight to the efforts of the Syrian Kurds and other rebel groups fighting ISIS ?
    
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    September 10, 2016 11:39am
Fletch

71% percent of physicians in a survey conducted by the long-standing Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) say that concerns about Hillary’s health are serious and could disqualify her as president.

TUCSON, Ariz., Sept. 8, 2016 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ — Concerns about Hillary Clinton’s health are “serious—could be disqualifying for the position of President of the U.S.,” say nearly 71% of 250 physicians responding to an informal internet survey by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS). About 20% said concerns were “likely overblown, but should be addressed as by full release of medical records.” Only 2.7% responded that they were “just a political attack; I have confidence in the letter from her physician and see no cause for concern.”

Nearly two-thirds said that a physician who had a concern about a candidate’s fitness to serve for health reasons should “make the concerns known to the public.” Only 11% said a physician should “keep silent unless he had personally examined the patient,” and 10% that the candidate’s health was “off limits for public discussion.”

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/hillarys-health-concerns-serious-say-most-doctors-polled-by-the-association-of-american-physicians-and-surgeons-aaps-300325065.html
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September 10, 2016 11:31am
- stephieboy
  
  From the Encyclopaedia of American Loons .
  
  “The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) is a relatively small but notoriously loud group of “conservative” cranks and batshit crazy fundies who wail against, in particular, abortion, vaccination, the idea of universal health care coverage, and the fact that evidence- and science-based medicine as placing unacceptable limits on physician autonomy (it is obviously listed by Quackwatch). Jane Orient is the executive director. The physical address of the organization in Tucson (a suite in a medical center) is also the address for the equally insane Doctors for Disaster Preparedness, the American Health Legal Foundation, the AAPS Educational Foundation, Physicians for Civil Defense, the Southwestern Institute of Science, and the Southern Arizona Association for Play Therapy. Jane Orient is also listed as contact for the majority of these other organizations. Common to all is that they defend all the extreme religious right positions (usually denial) related to any topic in science and medicine, and various forms of woo and anti-vaccine propaganda. In short, Jane Orient may hence be one of the most comprehensive crackpots in our Encyclopedia thus far. You can read about her arguments against vaccines, citing the Geiers, here. Her claims have been cited by various anti-vaccine organizations, who wouldn’t recognize a crank if they ate one..”
  
  http://americanloons.blogspot.co.nz/2014/04/1000-jane-orient.html
  
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  September 10, 2016 11:37am
  - Reid
    
    stephieboy
    
    From the Encyclopaedia of American Loons .
    
    How appropriate.
    
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    September 10, 2016 11:49am
    - stephieboy
      
      Reid , thank you for being discerning enough to see through the quackery of The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) !
      
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      September 10, 2016 11:57am
  - Inandout
    
    That Loon site is vehemently anti climate change deniers. Says it all really, a Clinton front.
    
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    September 10, 2016 1:20pm
- mikenmild
  
  The AAPS is a well-known crank organisation, mainly interested in pushing misinformation about abortion and contraception.
  No surprises that they should survey unqualified doctors over the web about a patient they have never examined and present that as some kind of credible report.
  
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  September 10, 2016 12:09pm
- cha
  
  Rand’s B-movie doctors warned the world about Obama hypnotising Jews into voting for him in 2008 with mysterious hand gestures and body language, too. Idiot.
  
  http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/rands-medical-group-obama-hypnotized-voters-20100929
  
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  September 10, 2016 5:12pm
cmm

Why is Devoy getting caught up in the Scarlette saga?

“Stripper” is not a race.
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September 10, 2016 11:45am
- sooty
  
  Was she a cheeky little darkie.
  
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  September 10, 2016 1:15pm
wikiriwhis business

‘Leaving the police was one the best decisions I ever made’

I left the New Zealand Police about 18 months ago after serving 10 years, predominantly based in a regional town.

I experienced incredible highs from helping victims, solving major crimes, and contributing to my community. I also experienced major lows from constant subjection to major trauma, stress, and issues within my family resulting from my job.

On the ground level the police is a family, but at the top it’s like a business. There is little to no appreciation of what the frontline guys and girls put themselves through on a daily basis and the disconnect is widening at a rapid rate.

Who is to blame? The commissioner, the police minister, the Government as a whole, society or all of those involved?

The answer? The latter.

The support provided by the upper echelon is virtually non-existent, however the staff on the street also need to stand up for themselves and ensure they’re not bullied into doing things they shouldn’t.

It took me eight years to realise the only person who was going to look after me was me. I decided I was no longer going to neglect my family by constantly giving in and complying with what was expected.

This polarised me from mangement. Suddenly I went from being promotional material to “not suitable”. This wasn’t because I wasn’t doing my job, as I still gave it 100 per cent, rather it was because I didn’t agree with the way things were being done.

Once, at a promotion board hearing, my area commander told me I was a great cop, but needed to make my bosses “look good”. In other words, “Toe the line, buy into the corporate b……., and don’t be so vocal about the real problems”.

Our corporate tagline was “Reported crime is down” – of course it was as it was harder to report and we were becoming less approachable.

I dealt with gang members on a daily basis, many of whom were not as bad as they’re made out to be, and they were laughing at how we were going about our business. New gangs were arriving and establishing themselves as police took their eye off the ball to say “Reported crime is down”.

As recent results have shown, crime has risen, and now Police Minister Judith Collins has said all home burglaries will be attended, just as police did 10 years ago.

Eventually I decided to leave and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. At times I miss the amazing highs of the job, but I don’t miss the lows.

I recently visited some of my former colleagues and increasing numbers of them are disgruntled and feel how I did. This is the frightening truth.

Everyone who joins the police for the right reasons can have those intentions drained from them and issues can fester and grow.

I have moved on and made my change, but will never forget the best days – and the worst – of my working life.

I only hope those in positions to make a change do so, and do so quickly, so the pride of being a police officer in New Zealand can return.

Good luck to all my brothers and sisters. Keep up the good fight.
http://nzpca.co.nz/leaving-the-police-was-one-the-best-decisions-i-ever-made/
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September 10, 2016 11:53am
- Inandout
  
  No mention of the Treaty PC bullshit that permeates every aspect of police life. If you had asked a cop 40 years ago to do the haka while on duty, the answer would be ‘get stuffed’. This fact wouldn’t have got published of course.
  
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  September 10, 2016 1:26pm
stephieboy

Reid

Experts in material science or structural engineering might have more credence.

Well there’s 2,500 of those in architects and engineers for 911 truth mm, go ahead and look at their data.

But again we see, as is always the case with you (and stephie), no comment whatsover on the content.”

And the views of the 88,000 members of the American Institute of Architects ?

http://www.aia.org/join/

Not forgetting the American Society of civil Engineers ,

http://www.asce.org
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September 10, 2016 12:01pm
Stars And Stripes

Piles of rubbish illegally dumped at Whanganui hospice shop
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11707251

Unfortunate this one but it does raise the question on the whole about whether most of the stuff inside these shops is any better than the crap dumped outside.
Try to avoid them myself as a lot of the patrons are the unwashed beneficiary type and most of the shops smell pretty bad to go with it.
Have seen a couple here and there which are a bit more upmarket and dignified though.
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September 10, 2016 1:17pm
- Gabby
  
  Now you know where your used incontinence pants collection ended up.
  
  3 5
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  September 10, 2016 1:46pm
  - stigie
    
    Now we know where you drop yours Gobby..?
    
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    September 10, 2016 1:48pm
- Icarus
  
  You sound a bit up yourself there S&S and not particularly secure about your station in life. Which is wise, as fortunes can change very quickly and bring you down a peg or two.
  
  Just sayin 🙂
  
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  September 10, 2016 2:35pm
Manolo

A lingering doubt:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/democrats-wonder-and-worry-why-isnt-clinton-far-ahead-of-trump/2016/09/09/543f3342-7693-11e6-8149-b8d05321db62_story.html
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September 10, 2016 2:42pm
B.L.Zeebub

Quelle surprise,he`s got a book to hawk,
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11707270

War is hell,wonder if he mentions that the pommy military put our shell-shocked young soldiers in front of firing squads?
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September 10, 2016 3:01pm
- mikenmild
  
  If you are referring to the New Zealand soldiers executed during the First World War, you should be aware that the four deserters were tried by New Zealand courts-martial. Only the mutineer, Braithwaite, faced a British court martial.
  
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  September 10, 2016 5:44pm
Reid

Tom “Crossfire” O’Rourke is eagerly unpacking a prized item from this morning’s mission. Inside a styrofoam cooler labeled with a red biohazard sticker, he unveils a severed head packed in ice and dripping a thin red liquid.

“The Al Qaeda group was trying to get a body part that had Ebola,” Crossfire says. “Because they planned on using that as a weapon of mass destruction.”

Seated nearby is a man named Jolly. He speaks in a low, measured rumble, weighs nearly 300 pounds, and is hobbled by a visible limp. Jolly too is excited to show me the head.

“Does it look like Obama?” Jolly asks. Crossfire opens the plastic bag and clears away the excess ice. Inside is a plastic, bald, Caucasian head with its eyes and mouth sewn up, the kind that you’d pick up to decorate a kid’s Halloween party.

“Dammit, wrong head,” he says, grinning. “A man can dream, right?”

It’s Fourth of July weekend, and I am at war. This is the world of airsoft sports…

Damn. I was hoping it was a real head.

http://www.vocativ.com/337111/war-games-inside-the-hardcore-world-of-military-simulations/

I reckon there’d be a market for that round here, esp if you located it down South where the tourists are. Coupla ex-mil guys on the payroll and you could make quite the go of it.
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September 10, 2016 3:24pm
EAD

It’s funny how people demand we “listen to the experts” when it comes to pseudo climate science but when more than 2,000 Architects & Engineers present evidence that is inconvenient, they are dismissed as so called “conspiracy theorists”

http://www.ae911truth.org/
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September 10, 2016 3:39pm
- Reid
  
  They can’t handle the truth EAD, it gives them explosive diarrhea. That’s all it is.
  
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  September 10, 2016 4:05pm
  - itstricky
    
    So the Pentagon was a setup and the plane that crashed in a field was a red herring?
    
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    September 10, 2016 4:07pm
- itstricky
  
  but when more than 2,000 Architects & Engineers
  
  What’s 2000 Architects & Engineers? 0.1% of all in the USA, or 0.001% of all in the world?
  
  6% of the USA population think the moon landing was faked.
  
  Go figure.
  
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  September 10, 2016 4:05pm
  - Icarus
    
    (((here))) they come ^^^
    
    4 2
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    September 10, 2016 4:08pm
  - nasska
    
    I’ve got news for you & it’s bad. In Jesusland a full 18% of the population believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old!
    
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    September 10, 2016 4:31pm
    - itstricky
      
      https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/apr/07/conspiracy-theory-paranoia-aliens-illuminati-beyonce-vaccines-cliven-bundy-jfk?0p19G=c
      
      12 million believe alien lizard men hold the balance of power.
      
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      September 10, 2016 4:40pm
    - Icarus
      
      That is just what a Ball Earther would say 🙂
      
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      September 10, 2016 4:41pm
VicParking

Women featured in Dominion today says shes been in a rental property for about four years – but spent about 10 years going “sort of back and foward to find somewhere to stay”
My calculations means that her “homelessness” begain under labour. Bang shot in the foot Phil
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September 10, 2016 3:46pm
stephieboy

Icarus at 2.33 pm ,

“Where in Hitlers speech did he condone the mass killing of Jews ?”

Hitler , made his intentions as far as the Jews were concerned in his speech here ,

“On 12 December 1941, five days after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour, Adolf Hitler made a revealing speech in Berlin to Nazi leaders, both Gauleiter and Reichleiter; and Josef Goebbels recorded in his diary what had been said: ‘With regard to the Jewish Question the Fuehrer is determined to make a clean sweep. He prophesized that if they brought about another world war, they would experience their annihilation. This was no empty talk. The world war is here. The annihilation of the Jews must be the necessary consequence. This question is to be viewed without sentimentality. We’re not to have sympathy with the Jews, but only sympathy with our German people. If the German people has again now sacrificed around 160,000 dead in the eastern campaign, the instigators of this bloody conflict will have to pay for it with their own lives.’i

http://ww2history.com/key_moments/Holocaust/Hitler_talks_of_Jewish_annihilation

Now where did the President gave a speech like that in respect of police officers ?

You seem to be making stuff up !
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September 10, 2016 4:34pm
- Icarus
  
  He openly supports groups who demand (and carry out) murders on white cops. Links were provided.
  
  Obama is a violent racist.
  
  Obama defends Black Lives Matter movement as protests heat up
  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-defends-black-lives-matter-movement-as-protests-heat-up/
  BLM demands killing cops: “Pull your pistol out and ya f*cking bust at em!”
  Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ce2_1468281672&comments=1#PO1rjAxd9mUDb6Cp.99
  
  Dallas police shooting: Recap as five officers killed during Black Lives Matter protest
  http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/live-dallas-shooting-suspect-bomb-8375665
  
  Al Sharpton Calls For The Killing Of Crackers And Cops
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSfNsGUh940
  
  Al Sharpton Becomes Obama’s Race Ambassador
  
  http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/al-sharpton-race-missouri-police/2014/08/22/id/590375/
  
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  September 10, 2016 4:37pm
Fletch

We know who Hillary’s “handler” is now –

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8yF4ckv92g
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September 10, 2016 4:40pm
stephieboy

Icarus , give me a specific instance with a quote where the President has endorsed BLM or anyone else killing cops ?

I’ve come to the party in respect of Hitler and his intention to annihilate the Jews .

More here ,

Hitler Speaks to the Reichstag on the Jewish Question

Selected Extracts from Adolf Hitler’s The Jewish Question speech,
delivered before the Reichstag in Berlin, Germany – January 30, 1939.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/holoprelude/jewishquestion.html

Your turn now !
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September 10, 2016 4:45pm
- Icarus
  
  So Obama supporting a race hate group that is murdering people for being white is not racist.
  
  But Trump assisting immigration law by non violent means (a wall) is racist.
  
  LOL 🙂
  
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  September 10, 2016 4:48pm
stephieboy

Icarus ,go back to the President’s Dallas speech . Read it or view it .

Nowhere did he say he supported violence against police officers carried out by BLM or anybody else .

You demonstrate to the contrary .You can’t because there is nothing .Zero zilch !
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September 10, 2016 4:53pm
- Icarus
  
  What do you have to say about Obama supporting Al Sharpton and BLM as they demand the killing of cops and crackers ?
  
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  September 10, 2016 4:55pm
stephieboy

Icarus , no it’s not about supporting Al Sharpton but about when and where the President stated he endorsed and supported violence against police officers whether by Sharpton, BLM or anybody else .

Please provide a direct quote from his Dallas or any other speech .
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September 10, 2016 5:03pm
Reid

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/358507-top-10-western-lies-syrian/

Now watch the idiots pretend those lies are not lies at all not because they’ve read any of them but merely because, they will say, it comes from RT and just look what was in the sidebar, over there. Gasp.

Whereas if the precise same article came from say, the NYT, they wouldn’t ~~believe~~ understand it either.

Chortle.
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September 10, 2016 5:04pm
- stephieboy
  
  Reid , re Neil Clark ,
  
  “Remember, some are still mourning the Soviet Empire”
  
  Johnathan Pearce (London) · Eastern Europe
  Every so often, when I hear people tell me that the Cold War is a long-lost issue and that we need to “move on”, to use that cant expression, I remember that there are, unbelievably, people out there who still think that the Soviet Union and its empire was a benevolent force and no worse than that of the NATO alliance that successfully helped to bring it down, and who therefore regard people who helped thwart the Soviet regime, like Vaclav Havel, as bad men. Case in point is this creature by the name of Neil Clark, writing in the Guardian newspaper:
  
  “No one questions that Havel, who went to prison twice, was a brave man who had the courage to stand up for his views. Yet the question which needs to be asked is whether his political campaigning made his country, and the world, a better place. Havel’s anti-communist critique contained little if any acknowledgement of the positive achievements of the regimes of eastern Europe in the fields of employment, welfare provision, education and women’s rights. Or the fact that communism, for all its faults, was still a system which put the economic needs of the majority first.”
  
  Absolutely. Presumably, that explains why there were millions of downtrodden, poor people attempting to enter the Soviet Empire from such hellholes as West Germany. That explains why East Berlin erected the Wall, to contain the flood of people trying to enter it. Yes, that must have been the reason. (Sarcasm alert)….”
  
  http://www.samizdata.net/2011/12/remember-some-a/
  
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  September 10, 2016 5:32pm
Icarus

Reid here are the facts:

1. Syria is being attacked by ISIS and Obama backed “moderate” Jihadists.

2. Assad is using his available resources to bomb ~~ISIS and Obama backed Jihadists~~ women and children’s hospitals.

Because that is what any leader would do when their country is under siege by people who want to kill them. They would attack women and children.

Why can’t you believe that ? Are you stuuuupid ? 🙂
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September 10, 2016 5:10pm
wikiriwhis business

Wall Street suffered one of its most volatile sessions in years Monday, with the Dow industrials plunging more than 1,000 points in the opening minutes, bouncing back to recover most of the losses and then fading into the final bell to record the biggest drop in four years.

Meanwhile the main benchmark S&P 500 slipped into correction territory, having fallen more than 10% from its peak reached on May 21.

“Short-term fear of the unknown is still in the driver’s seat, I would expect more volatility in the coming weeks,” said Kate Warne, investment strategist at Edward Jones.

Indeed, Monday’s trading session saw the main indexes plunge by more than 5%. Nearly 14 billion shares changed hands on Monday, the largest volume since August 10, 2011.

Investors remained concerned about global growth in the face of plummeting commodity prices and slowing growth in China, the second largest economy in the world.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average /quotes/zigman/627449/realtime DJIA -2.13% ended the day down 588.47 points, or 3.6%, at 15,871.28—its lowest settlement since February 2014. All 30 members of the Dow finished the day in negative territory.

The S&P 500 /quotes/zigman/3870025/realtime SPX -2.45% dropped 77.68 points, or 3.9%, to 1,893.21, the lowest level since October 2014. The index is down 8% year to date. Nearly all 500 members of the index closed with a loss.

Both the Dow and the S&P 500 scored their biggest one-day percentage declines since August 2011.
https://secure.marketwatch.com/story/tense-day-for-wall-street-ahead-as-china-stocks-tank-85-2015-08-24

This is it people, the Dollar crash is coming. Many analysts have even predicted Sept 27 including Ron Paul. This after a major Hong Kong port company went bankrupt in the last few days.
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September 10, 2016 5:26pm
- mikenmild
  
  I won’t believe a crash is coming until EAD confirms it…
  
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  September 10, 2016 5:47pm
  - Icarus
    
    Good one milky 🙂
    
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    September 10, 2016 5:48pm
  - Odakyu-sen
    
    I have been waiting for the “crash” to come since the Lehman Shock, but it still hasn’t shown up. (So, what do I know…)
    If I could predict the future, I would be very rich but very bored.
    
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    September 10, 2016 6:29pm
Icarus

stephieboy’s people are now getting women to do their dirty work.

Tell us stephieboy, do they get 70 virgins too ? 🙂

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/09/cell-of-french-women-radicalised-by-isis-behind-failed-notre-dame-attack
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September 10, 2016 5:47pm
- nasska
  
  DO NOT DIE A VIRGIN
  
  Seriously, there are terrorists waiting for you up there!
  
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  September 10, 2016 6:03pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  @ Icarus
  No, they don’t get any men, unsullied or otherwise.
  
  This is because, as you well know, “women’s longing for men is not as strong as men’s longing for women”
  
  In Paradise women get relief from Labour and some bling
  http://library.islamweb.net/en/article/158781/what-awaits-women-in-paradise
  
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  September 10, 2016 6:25pm
  - Icarus
    
    But not the virgins ?
    
    How does this all work ? I wonder if the resident Imam stephieboy could tell us.
    
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    September 10, 2016 7:00pm
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      @Icarus
      
      I am sorry… I may have misreported some theology here…. according to this source Women in Paradise do get 1 man (bugger!).
      https://wikiislam.net/wiki/72_Virgins
      I’ve read further and can’t quite figure out whether each male in paradise gets his very own set of 72 virgins…. or whether 72 virgins circulate amongst all the blessed males.
      
      Really, we do need an authoritative ruling here.
      
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      September 10, 2016 7:29pm
      - Icarus
        
        Yes we do. A friend wants to know if a bit of anal is on the cards too ? 🙂
        
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        September 10, 2016 7:35pm
cha

heh

This cannot be right. Surely to goodness someone in the captioning department has just won a bet. And lost their job.pic.twitter.com/NDLYvXfyd0— Ruth Davidson (@RuthDavidsonMSP) September 30, 2015
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September 10, 2016 5:58pm
wiseowl

Argentina by 5 tonight.
All Blacks overpowered by possibility of offending women .
Tew on that.
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September 10, 2016 6:28pm
- mikenmild
  
  I’m reluctant to bet against the All Blacks, but Argentina have beaten SA this year, will beat the All Blacks at some stage, and are paying $10 for the win tonight.
  
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  September 10, 2016 7:01pm
wikiriwhis business

It’s another National™ disgrace!

re: TPP.

“The fight has been given renewed urgency by revelations about the nature of a secret court system embedded in trade agreements. The court system, known as investor-state dispute settlement, or ISDS, has recently been hijacked by hedge funds and other investors, who have discovered that challenging governments over obscure regulatory reforms can be a path to extraordinary profits ― leaving those governments crippled in its wake.”

As Kiwi’s ‘in the know’ protest TODAY the TPP, this is the story on Huffpost.
John Key is an ex international banker, that where he stole his personal fortune …sorry ‘earnt’ his personal fortune.
He failed in his legacy to change our flag at a cost that would have given homes to the homeless or food for the children living in poverty.
He is prepared to give mega wealthy corporations the power to extract even more money out of sick and dying New Zealanders. He won’t even look at medical marijuana because it will take money from his friends in the mega corporations. So as our people die suffering Key holidays around the world all the time ignoring the work he was elected to perform but golfing and hobnobbing must be easier than solving the problems New Zealand has regardless of his real responsibilities to the people of New Zealand.

So read this article in the link and ask yourself ‘is John Key representing ‘the people’ or the his corporate buddies’?

I hope you get angry enough to vote in the next election because 1 million New Zealanders didn’t in the last election and they allowed Key to continue his reign of economic terror on us!

With the over $100 BILLION we are now in debt plus the TPP give-a-way Key’s ‘legacy’ will take generations to repay, if ever!

Mick McCrohon
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September 10, 2016 6:31pm
wikiriwhis business

There’s A New Front In The Battle Over The Trans-Pacific Partnership

The Trans-Pacific Partnership, which has taken a drubbing from all directions during the presidential campaign, will not get a vote before the election.

But as Congress returns to Capitol Hill from a seven-week break, the battle over the TPP continues.

The fight has been given renewed urgency by revelations about the nature of a secret court system embedded in trade agreements. The court system, known as investor-state dispute settlement, or ISDS, has recently been hijacked by hedge funds and other investors, who have discovered that challenging governments over obscure regulatory reforms can be a path to extraordinary profits ― leaving those governments crippled in its wake.

A recent Huffington Post investigation highlighted the financier co-optation of the process, and a four-part series at BuzzFeed on ISDS found deep flaws with the system. The dual reports have hardened critics’ opposition to the 12-nation Pacific trade agreement, which includes an investment chapter with ISDS.

Under this system, a corporation invested in a foreign country can appeal to arbitration panels, consisting of three corporate lawyers, if that country enacts a law or regulation that violates a trade agreement or discriminates against the company. The ISDS courts can then award billions of dollars to the corporation to compensate it for the loss of expected future profits.

The problem is that these courts can also be used by speculators, who buy up companies for the sole purpose of filing an ISDS claim, or who finance lawsuits from corporations for a piece of the claim award.

“ISDS allows a small group of ultra-rich investors to extract billions of dollars from taxpayers while they undermine financial, environmental and public health rules across the world,” Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), an early opponent of ISDS, told HuffPost. “Our trade deals should not include ISDS in any form.”

On Wednesday, Warren hosted a conference call with a group of academics who have traditionally embraced free trade, but who are alarmed by the inclusion of ISDS in the TPP. The group, 223 strong and led by Harvard Law Professor Laurence Tribe, warned that the U.S. will become subject to a flurry of suits by profit-seeking actors with no interest in working through a democratic or constitutional process. During the call, Warren cited the recent HuffPost and BuzzFeed investigations in making her case against ISDS.

The Obama administration, which sees the TPP as a cornerstone of its pivot-to-Asia foreign policy, is still pushing forward. This weekend at the G-20 summit in China, Obama reassured TPP partners. “The U.S. has never had a smooth, uncontroversial path to ratifying trade deals, but they eventually get done,” he said in a press conference.

But that path has become rougher with the reporting on ISDS. The president likely needs a handful of Democrats to pass the TPP, so opposition from the political left could complicate his efforts.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tpp-isds-battle_us_57d030cee4b06a74c9f1da0c
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September 10, 2016 6:34pm
wikiriwhis business

We write now to express our extreme disappointment that the final text of the TPP that was finally made public in November 2015 did not heed those warnings about this controversial provision’s negative consequences for our legal system. Those concerns expressed in the 2015 letter were based on past agreements and leaked texts from the TPP negotiations. Unfortunately the final TPP text simply replicates nearly word for word many of the problematic provisions from past agreements, and indeed would vastly expand the U.S. government’s potential liability under the ISDS system.

Indeed, Article 9.24 of the TPP, the transparency section of the investment chapter, makes clear that companies or countries need not release anything they deem “protected information,” subject to agreement from the tribunal. And there are no rules around the disclosure of third-party funding in ISDS cases or the arbitrators’ conflicts of interest.

“TPP is an unfair trade deal that will expand a secret court system and make a rigged game worse for workers,” Sen. Tammy Baldwin (D-Wis.) told HuffPost. “When people are struggling to get ahead, the last thing we need is a super court with the power to protect corporations and stick it to taxpayers.”

The other common refrain from the U.S. Trade Representative’s office is that America has never lost an ISDS case. But Rep. Keith Ellison (D-Minn.), one of the leading opponents of TPP in the House, highlighted TransCanada’s $15 billion claim against the U.S. for rejecting the Keystone XL pipeline, which would have transported tar sands oil from Canada to global shipping ports along the Gulf Coast.

“TPP would significantly expand this secret, undemocratic, pro-corporation court,” Ellison said. “It’s great for corporations and wealthy investors, and terrible for just about everyone else. That’s why so many Americans oppose the TPP, and that’s why progressives like me are fighting in Congress.”

Jeffrey Sachs, a professor at Columbia University who signed Wednesday’s letter, warned that Obama’s efforts on behalf of TPP could be politically disastrous for Democrats, potentially hurting former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in her bid for the White House.

“It’s absolutely a disgrace for President Obama to be pushing this at the last moment,” Sachs said during the call with Warren. “He’s playing with fire right now, and not just after the election, but with the election.”

The use of ISDS as a moneymaking engine, rather than for its initial purpose ― to protect foreign investors from having their factories expropriated or their businesses nationalized ― raises the question of whether there’s a better system available.

“Why should hard-won sovereign advances, like rules against polluting or consumer protections, be at risk when the obvious solution is for the investors to put their skin, not ours, in the game?” wondered Jared Bernstein, former chief economist to Vice President Joe Biden and a critic of TPP. “The simple solution is to have them self-insure against investment losses.”

Self-insurance would put private money at risk, rather than taxpayer dollars, in the event of discriminatory conduct against foreign investors. And the corporations themselves would fund the system through premiums.

“According to USTR, we never lose these cases, so premiums should be cheap,” Bernstein said.

But how could a system of dispute settlement be dismantled when it’s already embedded in more than 3,000 active trade agreements?
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September 10, 2016 6:36pm
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  Bloody Hell, the in-receivership idiot is in full flight again.
  
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  September 10, 2016 8:30pm
Icarus

How is that violent black warlords Nobel Peace Prize going ….

A TRILLION dollars on nukes while his country lays in ruins. Typical black spending large on bling and weapons to look like Da-man.

Its not funny anymore. He needs to be stopped and bought to justice.

Obama’s Russian Rationale for $1 Trillion Nuke Plan Signals New Arms Race

https://theintercept.com/2016/02/23/obamas-new-rationale-for-1-trillion-nuclear-program-augurs-a-new-arms-race-with-russia/
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September 10, 2016 7:14pm
DifferentPerspective

John Key to blame again

He does get around though, this poor, innocent, blameless victim who finds herself and her 5 kids in a homeless situation is another example of how evil John Key is.

I don’t know how he did it, but somehow he got this woman knocked up 5 times all by himself and then he made her so stoopid that she didn’t have any way to take care of herself.

He is a terrible evil man for doing this to this poor, blameless victim of rampant neo-liberalism.

He needs to apologise to this poor woman – straight away. I reckon he was in on the Chiefs things too!
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September 10, 2016 7:32pm
- GoVege
  
  From the mention of women’s refuge, it sounds like this lady had to leave a violent home. Maybe if we didn’t have such a massive problem with family violence in this country, we wouldn’t have mums with 5 kids needing state housing.
  Instead of knocking her, why don’t you give her a bit of credit for raising 5 kids on her own?
  And urge their father and thousands like him to “man up” and protect and support their wives and kids, not terrorize them.
  
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  September 10, 2016 10:48pm
  - Icarus
    
    We don’t have a massive problem with domestic violence. We have a problem with the media and feminist activists telling us we do. The agenda is to marginalise men as much as possible.
    
    Anyone who thinks NZ is even on the DV radar ,globally, needs to educate themselves.
    
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    September 11, 2016 6:31am
    - GoVege
      
      Obviously compared to non-western nations we aren’t as bad, but we still have a massive DV problem.
      Battered women in this country can’t even get counselling funded by ACC because the need is so great, they can’t afford to meet it.
      And why on earth would women want to “marginalize” men?
      Men are very important to women…except when they’re beating and terrorizing them.
      
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      September 11, 2016 7:33am
      - Icarus
        
        Men are the ones over represented in all negative social statistics. Not women. Men are the ones most often the victims of violence. Not women.
        
        The feminist movement sees the traditional family as being part of the patriarchy. The DV issue is one way of attacking it. There are many others.
        
        Men are only important to women during those years women want someone to support them and their kids. They are simply resource providers.
        
        Modern feminists now look to the State for money and protection. It is a deliberate and structured attack on men and the family. The State takes the role men used to occupy.
        
        Now go cook your man some bacon and eggs 🙂
        
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        September 11, 2016 7:40am
    - GoVege
      
      Icarus: There is no “feminist movement” anymore. It got hijacked by a bunch of man-haters and nobody takes them seriously anymore. Pity.
      Only a nut would not see the benefits of the traditional family.
      It’s true that some women just use men, but most appreciate their men more than they realize.
      Unfortunately human beings cannot be relied on to do the right thing, so we need laws to give them a nudge in the right direction.
      Getting rid of “no fault divorce” would be a start.
      Heaps of women suffer in silence from violence.
      The only support they know to expect from other women are knowing smirks and everyone gossiping about them.
      My man cooks his own food on Sunday. I go and take Nana for a Sunday drive so I don’t have to endure the puke-inducing smell of sizzling piggy person!:)
      
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      September 11, 2016 12:57pm
nasska

Just been to Whale’s site to have a read of his summary of the first week of the Williams/Craig hearing as linked to in another comment above:

1) Love his presentation…..bullet points of fact rather than an airhead reporter’s unwanted opinion.

2) By now even Colin the Deluded must see that the writing’s on the wall. Whale’s payday will be a good one.

3) Another temporary setback for the NZ Conservatives. Perhaps they’ll get a better run in 2038. 🙂

http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2016/09/williams-v-craig-week-1-summary/
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September 10, 2016 7:37pm
- Icarus
  
  nasska, personally I am looking forward to another Christian party. We always know they are sexual deviates and its fun waiting for them to be caught.
  
  But not as much fun as having the religious supporters on once it all comes out in the open.
  
  They do it better in the States though, with drug fueled homo love parties being popular.
  
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  September 10, 2016 7:45pm
  - nasska
    
    It’s good to have them in one place just in case we end up with another Jonestown after they realise that their hopes of returning NZ to the 1950s was all just a dream.
    
    Easier to keep the kids safe too. 🙂
    
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    September 10, 2016 7:52pm
  - sam green
    
    Do you yearn for those days Icarus? Back in the homeland with the homos.
    
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    September 10, 2016 7:57pm
    - Icarus
      
      Don’t get upset sam. Sure your great hopes of Graham and Colin have not worked out, but there are plenty of other ~~perverts~~ preachers out there.
      
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      September 10, 2016 7:59pm
      - sam green
        
        You lefty homo pervert you.
        
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        September 10, 2016 8:01pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        That’s odd Sammy, you seemed to me to be someone who liked a bit of anal play, or is it only ok when the the missus is using the strap on??
        
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        September 10, 2016 8:07pm
Icarus

Now this is a smart Judge

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/84125721/Judge-could-lose-job-for-berating-rape-victim-Why-couldn-t-you-just-keep-your-knees-together
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September 10, 2016 7:56pm
- Rachael Membery
  
  I wonder what he said to his daughter when she told him that she had been raped. If she felt that she could tell him of course.
  
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  September 10, 2016 9:24pm
sam green

Sorry All_on_Red. I reported you when I meant to reply.

I was going to say – I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned the Mrs with a strap on. Is it perhaps in your imagination?
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September 10, 2016 8:12pm
- All_on_Red
  
  No worries Sam. You’ve alluded to certain ‘things’ in the past- maybe too much vino with the curry while blogging has caused you to forget.Just make sure she cuts her nails?
  
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  September 10, 2016 8:15pm
  - sam green
    
    Thanks for the wisdom All. Your old timer experience really matters to us younguns. Respect.
    
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    September 10, 2016 8:18pm
    - All_on_Red
      
      S’ok, your wife seems to appreciate our experience too.
      
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      September 10, 2016 8:21pm
nasska

…..” I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned the Mrs with a strap on”…..

Even if you haven’t don’t worry.

It’ll only seem kinky the first time. 🙂
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September 10, 2016 8:15pm
- Icarus
  
  I reckon sam would be more likely to go for the real thing sans Mrs.
  
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  September 10, 2016 8:18pm
  - sam green
    
    Careful Shawn. We’ll start talking about your Mrs.
    
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    September 10, 2016 8:21pm
    - All_on_Red
      
      Does a female Pastor really take you to Heaven and back?
      Praise the Lord
      
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      September 10, 2016 8:27pm
      - sam green
        
        I worry for you All?
        
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        September 10, 2016 8:29pm
    - Icarus
      
      Oh please do. It will quickly show your lack of knowledge in the area of having a Mrs.
      
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      September 10, 2016 8:31pm
      - sam green
        
        Oh dear. Calm down “Icarus” or “Wolverine” or whoever your iteration is tonight
        
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        September 10, 2016 8:37pm
sam green

The allusion is in your mind All – makes you wonder really.
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September 10, 2016 8:26pm
- All_on_Red
  
  Just kidding, I’m sure your wife is beyond reproach.
  Heh, I have plenty of gay friends. The stories they tell when a bit wasted tend to make the ordinary look somewhat banal. Bunch of sluts some of them, lol
  
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  September 10, 2016 8:30pm
  - sam green
    
    I’m sure – dirty buggas. Mrs and I are being relatively sedate and watching the rugger.
    
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    September 10, 2016 8:35pm
    - All_on_Red
      
      Lucky you, my kids have nicked the big screen to watch Johnny English so I’m on the delay .
      Can’t be a great game if you’re talking to me…
      Don’t.say.a.word
      
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      September 10, 2016 8:42pm
      - GoVege
        
        You marshmallow!
        
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        September 10, 2016 10:32pm
cha

Bros….

It is good to see the comradery of strong men like Putin and Trump. No women to lead a strong nation. pic.twitter.com/1Eo0Kn0d4n— Strong Man (@Putin_Trump_16) September 10, 2016
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September 10, 2016 8:30pm
sam green

I must sat – those Argies look dangerous.
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September 10, 2016 8:41pm
- All_on_Red
  
  Nooooooo.
  
  1 1
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  September 10, 2016 8:42pm
  - sam green
    
    Sorry.
    
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    September 10, 2016 8:43pm
- cha
  
  Weren’t fit enough though.
  
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  September 10, 2016 9:30pm
nasska

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s1sjruvgjecfjux/It%20must%20be%20evil%2033.jpg?dl=0
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September 10, 2016 8:42pm
- All_on_Red
  
  Amyl Nitrate.?
  
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  September 10, 2016 8:45pm
- All_on_Red
  
  Hooray, Ice Cream for them and off to bed. My time now.
  See you later.
  
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  September 10, 2016 8:47pm
Kimbo

Hmm. Yesterday wikiriwhis business posted the following on GD

Very interesting interview on Kim Hill this morning speaking on Kiwi involvement in WW1 concerning atrocities by Kiwi’s against Germans. Kiwi’s were strictly told not to take prisoners and to stab throats with forks if necessary. Now we have Key doing US bidding to drag us into war in the ME. We really need to say no. Especially if a conscription comes about. Key needs to be gone before this happens.

September 10, 2016 10:52am

Leaving aside the idiocy of the connection with our current military involvement in Iraq, I’m struggling to see what is so “shock, horror” about the account of New Zealand soldiers committing atrocities and war crimes during the Great War. I seem to recall reading in Robert Graves’ memoir, Good-Bye to All That, that it was common practice for German prisoners to be killed on the journey back through the lines. Doesn’t make it right, just understandable in a protracted and brutal four+ year campaign like the Western Front where both sides maintained the “fighting spirit” of their troops with crude and jingoistic propaganda.

If World War I taught us anything then it was

1. War should be the last resort

2. But if you must, wage war with all your might so it is over as quickly as practicable

3. And in such a way that a better peace can be achieved than before the conflict

4. And always attempt to wage war in a way that supports the morality and goodness of your cause.

Anyway, that is my contribution to something different to today’s GD.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/201815636/hugh-sebag-montefiore-the-battle-of-the-somme
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September 11, 2016 11:35am

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