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October 7, 2020 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 07 October 2020

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General Debate

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TWEEDSE

With humanity’s new obsession with the virus du jour, you would think Auckland council would realise that people will no longer be drawn to high density city’s and stop wasting money on the CRL, cycle lanes and endless road closures.

But that would require a level, any level, of intelligence and foresight from our council representatives. Sadly I can’t see that happening. Auckland City now called Tumbleweed Town.
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October 7, 2020 8:00am
- alloytoo
  
  You might have thought’s AMP’s decision to withdraw from Auckland and Wellington CBD would have been a hint.
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:35am
- Catgurl13
  
  Considering most people do not even work locally. Most travel to other suburbs,areas when using a bike is not practical. Even if you live close to your job, who wants to arrive to work tired,sweaty, disheveled?….no one. But then again Greens are not practical thinkers neither are Labour. They are both dangerous incompetent parties who could destroy this country.
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:45am
  - alloytoo
    
    and do you want to lug your laptop along on a bike.
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:05am
    - Gulag1917
      
      I have done it, not too hard.
      
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      October 7, 2020 10:31am
      - GT Build
        
        Hope you had a shower when arriving as others don’t need in the 21st century to smell your body odour
        
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        October 7, 2020 11:15am
  - Ehlana
    
    Electric bikes: less sweat = less smell. Also much better at climbing hills!
    
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    October 7, 2020 12:26pm
    - Batman
      
      Can confirm this from a close associate, though you do have to WANT to be a bike to work person. You also have to navigate the weather unless you’re super committed and are one of those weirdos with a change of clothes etc at work.
      
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      October 7, 2020 1:23pm
PhilBest

The most important journalism yet on Covid-19.

“This Overlooked Variable is the Key to the Pandemic. It’s not R”

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/09/k-overlooked-variable-driving-pandemic/616548/

Are there any Kiwibloggers who can get these realities through to anyone who can make a difference? And BTW it is not as if there are not some of us who have been saying these things are self-evident; infections cannot possibly be spread like the WHO says, highly contagiously through the ordinary contacts of everyday life (which therefore must be shut down) and yet it hit nowhere in China significantly hard beyond the Wuhan region; it hit the Bergamo region in Northern Italy and is said to have gone from there to Sweden and yet it did not hit anywhere else in Italy hard; it is said to have reached NZ from Italy and Iran and yet somehow it didn’t reach here in the first place with the 40,000 monthly arrivals from China. It didn’t hit Australia at least as hard as Iran.

I am talking about the first couple of months before anyone got properly scared. If it was getting transmitted how the WHO says it does, it would have spread uniformly. The fact that it didn’t makes it self-evident to anyone with functioning sensibilities, that something else was going on. Initially I said that obviously temperate weather makes a difference. And it does. But there is more to it still.
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October 7, 2020 8:00am
- PhilBest
  
  That article also tells me for the first time, the names of some actual medical experts around the world who have been beating their heads against brick walls all this time trying to get the bleedin’ obvious acknowledged. Up till now I only knew of “laypersons” from outside of medical science, whose intuitions alone, like me, told them there was an epidemic of official incompetence or a conspiracy rather than a genuine pathogenic one. I don’t mean the virus doesn’t exist, I mean that it is grossly over-rated and is far easier to defeat than to Hara-Kiri our entire economy, society, and public health itself in the process. And the behavior of the authorities in places like Victoria was inexcusable on the basis of what was known in late March, let alone 6 months later. I think investigations with powers of criminal indictment are justified but sadly it is unlikely that any new political movement with the balls to go this route, will make the needed electoral breakthrough. This whole thing has been the crowning achievement thus far, of “swamp unaccountability”. GIGO computer modelers committing terrorist psy-ops against ignorant people – and even in Britain those charlatans Vallance and Whitty are still doing it. NZ’s own Hendy is no better.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:10am
  - Poppa
    
    Very interesting article Phil
    
    I am convinced that lockdowns are more about power than they are about health
    
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    October 7, 2020 8:45am
    - Simon
      
      “I am convinced that lockdowns are more about power than they are about health”
      
      The lockdowns were a panic over reaction. Ardeern shat herself. It was so panic driven that Ardern had to cancel the Christchurch big event that would have given her the nobel peace price.
      
      But once the panic was over and the “science” around the Black Death body count was badly wrong and economy crushed for no reason they have to keep the pantomime going.
      
      The Wuhan sniffles propaganda now just about covering up the many stupid mistakes of March.
      
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      October 7, 2020 9:12am
      - lastmanstanding
        
        I waiting to see some evidence as to how many extra people died.
        
        As in if X number in a cohort with certain non CV conditions have died over a similar number of periods how many have died since CV.
        
        I suspect we wont get the evidence given the same people have deliberately misclassified CV deaths in order to get the answers they wanted.
        
        As others have said this was the result of;
        
        1. Pollies civil servants and medicos panic then having to try and justify their panic.
        
        2. Pollies and civil servants seeing the opportunity to command and control the citizens.
        
        The damage to economies is less important to pollies and civil servants than is the change to command and control and put the fear of God into the citizens.
        
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        October 7, 2020 9:46am
      - sooty
        
        How many citizens did they kill, or place in serious harm by closing all the hospitals?
        
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        October 7, 2020 10:24am
      - hmmokrightitis
        
        Absolutely agree. I was involved in “the bowels of the beast” from early January up until a few weeks ago with one of the ministries.
        
        There was no leadership, there was panic. I offered up the fact that I had extensive emergency management – and specifically, pandemic management – training and experience, and was ignored.
        
        And then when I started talking about switching to command and control (I have military experience) as opposed to the standard management structure so as to provide a more measured response – ignored. Until they did it, badly, with no framework, focus or structure. And ignored the forward planning needed to underpin that.
        
        It was a literal clusterfuck.
        
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        October 7, 2020 10:54am
      - Southtop2
        
        Referring to virus numbers and hard but not early this is interesting ….
        https://www.nzcpr.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Hard-Not-Early-by-Professor-John-Gibson.pdf
        
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        October 7, 2020 11:14am
      - Wayne Mapp
        
        I guess it just the sniffles that has killed over 210,000 in the US and nearly 50,000 in the UK. And that virtually all western government are made up of fools given that they have virtually had some form of lockdown at some stage.
        
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        October 7, 2020 1:24pm
      - hmmokrightitis
        
        Actually Wayne, dig into some of the very credible science (Oxford; John Ioannidis from Stanford etc) that doesn’t get as much airtime and you’ll discover that its a bad flu season, “dry tinder” in some countries and that destroying your economy based on shitty data, massive assumptions, piss poor modelling and an unproven lockdown strategy is as the good doctor is quoted: “Once in a century Data Fiasco”.
        
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        October 7, 2020 3:07pm
    - igm
      
      Poppa: UN directives that will see the demise of so-called capitalism and assist introduction of socialism, like Ardern is au fait with.
      This disaster must go!
      
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      October 7, 2020 9:59am
  - Evadne
    
    Phil, if you’re looking for level-headed experts who have been consistently speaking out against covid-panic, check out Oxford University’s Centre for Evidence Based Medicine: https://www.cebm.net
    
    Also the Great Barringdon Declaration: https://gbdeclaration.org
    
    Sunetra Gupta, infectious disease epidemiologist, and professor of theoretical epidemiology at the University of Oxford, has been outspoken in many media articles & recordings and her measured approach is always worth reading / listening to.
    
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    October 7, 2020 9:00am
    - kowtow
      
      Dr Raj Bhopal in the UK ,another expert.
      
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      October 7, 2020 9:14am
    - Evadne
      
      Also, if you’re hoping for “investigations with powers of criminal indictment”, then you should watch Reiner Fuellmich, an American-German lawyer speak about a planned international class action by injured parties (i.e suing for damages), plus plans to prosecute under international laws using evidence collected by a group of German medical, legal & investigative experts
      “Stiftung Corona Ausschuss” (Corona Inquiry) https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://corona-ausschuss.de/&prev=search&pto=aue
      
      You can hear him speak (in English) here:
      Crimes against HUMANITY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr04gHbP5MQ
      
      Whether it is reasonable, robust, or likely to successful is a moot point, but it is interesting (and encouraging) to know that serious moves are being made by all sorts of people to try and sort this mess out.
      
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      October 7, 2020 9:16am
    - Evadne
      
      And not forgetting the detailed open letter from Belgian medical doctors and health professionals: https://docs4opendebate.be/en/
      
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      October 7, 2020 9:22am
  - Critical Thinker
    
    “Are there any Kiwibloggers who can get these realities through to anyone who can make a difference?”
    
    The most helpful thing we can do IMHO, is to give more voice to the actual experts whom are stating the facts against this unwarranted hysteria that has gripped the world ??
    
    In NZ:
    Epidemiologist Simon Thornley
    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/not-lockdowns-controversial-epidemiologist-calls-end-irrational-covid-19-elimination-strategy
    Covid Plan B
    https://www.covidplanb.co.nz/
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7mXnWFHi_hdnOIhTIPxBtw/videos
    
    International:
    https://unherd.com/2020/10/covid-experts-there-is-another-way/
    https://docs4opendebate.be/en/open-letter/
    https://covidmedicalnetwork.com/about-covid-medical-network/declaration-statement.aspx
    
    And keep pointing out the stats that unequivocally shows that Covid19 doesn’t meet the requirement for such hysterical panic.
    
    “Around 750 million infected” – WHO
    Covid IFR = 0.13
    Flu IFR = 0.10
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dbNuw9n0nE
    
    “98% – 99% of cases are very mild or asymptomatic. So allow controlled spread of the disease for people below 60”
    – Johan Giesecke Chairman for the WHO Infectious Hazards & former Chief Scientist of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC8NH1BNGz8
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU88R05hvdc
    
    COVID-19 survival rates:
    0-19: 99.997%
    20-49: 99.98%
    50-69: 99.5%
    70 & over: 94.6%
    
    6% of US covid deaths were actually FROM covid.
    
    USA: Over 70,000 positive reported COVID-19 cases in the Universities:
    3 hospitalizations
    0 deaths
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ejlrw5MUcAAjPty?format=jpg
    
    40% to 80% of people have T-cell cross-reactivity
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL7Cx2ScAtM
    
    No excess deaths in Sweden
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EjCn-GCVgAA3pNP?format=jpg
    
    HCQ works
    https://c19study.com/
    
    – Designer masks and scarves offer minimal protection.
    – People with COVID-19 with low Vitamin D do worse than those with normal levels. Which means that Lockdowns make the virus more deadly.
    https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/
    
    “Don’t be afraid of Covid. Don’t let it dominate your life.” ??
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:10am
    - Gulag1917
      
      People are becoming increasingly neurotic so expect more lockdowns over similar situations to COVID-19.
      
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      October 7, 2020 10:34am
    - Raphael
      
      It’s amusing that the WHO’s own figures confirm that the IFR is similar to flu. and Facebook deleted posts from Trump highlighting that as being “misinformation”
      
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      October 7, 2020 12:41pm
    - Wayne Mapp
      
      The answer is “No”. No-one in government or in the opposition (at the leadership level) is taking any notice of Kiwibloggers who think that covid is no more than a mild sniffle.
      
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      October 7, 2020 1:26pm
      - PhilBest
        
        But we are acting as if it is 1918 again. It is not. 1918 was hundreds of times worse than a normal flu season. Covid-19 is AT WORST, twice as bad as a normal flu season FOR A FEW WEEKS in jurisdictions that 1) were flaunting the risk for the first few weeks 2) have crap weather that keeps people crowded indoors and 3) have overcrowding
        
        After the first few weeks in these jurisdictions the death rates are back to normal flu season levels. Britain is still imposing rolling lockdowns while Covid-19 is now responsible for TEN PERCENT of respiratory viral deaths. In other words, it is back to normality. The same is the case everywhere that got hit hard initially.
        
        Whether excess mortality in these jurisdictions will actually be elevated in the 12 month period, is doubtful.
        
        Everywhere else, where at least one of the three conditions I mention, is absent, Covid-19 does not cause more deaths than the normal flu season. Not even for an initial few weeks. Sweden has a serious overcrowding problem in ghettoes where the immigrants live. Some of these immigrants are Rest Home workers.
        
        “Numbers of deaths” being beaten up in places like Florida is coming from alarmists presuming we are ALL idiots (too many of us are); in fact there is nothing at all remarkable about those death numbers, especially for the age groups concerned.
        
        In countries like NZ it is vanishingly unlikely that our annual death toll of 30,000 would ever have been increased by Covid-19 simply trusting people to act responsibly. The economic carnage and the mortality that will result spread out over decades to come, was gratuitous and a betrayal.
        
        Covid-19 has been hovering around 20th highest cause of death globally, even with the inflation of the numbers by ignoring co-morbidities. Some of those co-morbidities remain higher causes of death than Covid-19 even though their numbers have been deflated by cases being classified as Covid-19 cases. Malaria, TB and Measles are still far bigger problems in most of the world.
        
        Wayne Mapp: do you ever read ANYTHING that might challenge the narrative of institutions that you should regard as your political enemies? Did you read the article I linked to? Do you know something that you can explain to us, to disprove the hypothesis? Do you care about our “experts” possibly being wrong?
        
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        October 7, 2020 9:11pm
Scott

The coverage of Trump’s miraculous recovery has become biased to the point of disturbed. I watched a little CNN last night. This so you don’t have to.

They were all so glum and I would have to say, “angry”. They appear to be angry that the president of the United States has recovered from the virus?

Others have noted including Tom Bevan from Real clear politics who declared them the winner for media bias – https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/10/tom-bevan-cnn-wins.php

However if you want more proof then you need only look at the CNN website today. Here are some headlines this morning. I have not included the links because as we know consumption of CNN media is bad for one’s mental health and leaves a person vulnerable to an acute case of TDS ?

“Situation in White House grows more fraught”

“The rapid spread of the disease among Trump’s aides has prompted an intense backlash among staffers”

“Analysis: Trump’s behavior alarms public health experts”

“No sign of lessons learned as Trump mulls national address”

“Facebook removes Trump post saying flu more lethal than Covid”

“Analysis: Breaking down Trump’s irresponsible video victory lap”

“Trump has personally pressured drug company CEOs repeatedly to speed vaccine”

“Trump is losing by 16 in a new CNN poll. And that’s not the worst news.”

One can only wonder about the reason for such negative courage? Given that the President of the United States has made a miraculous recovery? The first reason I think is that they hate the president of the United States and they would prefer that he does not recover.

Secondly the sight of a 74 year old, slightly obese man recovering from the virus undermines their news reporting that coronavirus is incredibly deadly and the United States should stay in lockdown forever or until there is a vaccine.
Those are two reasons that I can see?
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October 7, 2020 8:00am
- Batman
  
  You’ve all missed the obvious point, that Trump has NOT recovered.
  
  He’s not Captain America with an amazing regenerative immune system that works four times faster than a regular person. He’s an overweight 74 year old who eats poorly, doesn’t sleep enough, and doesn’t take any exercise aside from golf cart to ball.
  
  He’s currently still on steroids which have numerous side effects which can make a patient feel great and healthy when they aren’t.
  
  He may well have got away with a mild case, which is good for him. I would simply say that nobody can pronounce him recovered inside the first week when we know this thing has a 2-4 week cycle and often the second week is where you find out how bad it is.
  
  So for now, he appears OK but that seems likely to be down to the drugs. It is indeed reckless to do the things he has done while infectious.
  
  More and more WH staff, now including four press staff plus the Press Secretary, are positive and have likely spread the virus wider.
  
  Heck, 120 Capitol staff now have it, which is bigger than the Auckland cluster we just had!
  
  I know you Trump guys want him to recover quick and prove your view that the virus is nothing but the virus doesn’t care about politics. It will spread and infect as it always does, unless people take the obvious precautions of distancing, masks, and not gathering in groups.
  
  The WH failed to take measures and is now reaping the consequences of that recklessness.
  
  Edit: oh and it now seems that multiple members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff now have the virus. So it is now a serious National Security issue, caused by the administration itself.
  
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  December 7, 2018 10:57am
  - Loddenthinks
    
    Actually he IS Captain America, and also a stable genius so he definitely knows more than you.
    
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    October 7, 2020 3:33pm
- Inandout
  
  Scott, there are sites which display CNN’s complete meltdown over Trump and his recovery and it is beyond sad, verging on insane. Luckily most Americans work and pay mortgages and see a positive attitude like Trump displays preferable to constant sniping. They also see Biden as a poor choice, and Harris even worse.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:28am
- kowtow
  
  TV1 Dallow kicked off with describing his behaviour as “reckless and bizarre”
  
  I’d say shutting down the world’s economy is what’s reckless and bizarre is the media’s and politicians ‘ obsession with one single health issue to the almost literal exclusion of all others.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:39am
  - OTGO
    
    Don’t watch that shit. There must be something more worthy of your time at 6 pm.
    
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    October 7, 2020 11:55am
  - JackRabbit
    
    So what does Dallow say about Cindy and her clowns who disregarded their own lock down rules on a continual basis?
    
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    October 7, 2020 11:59am
- Rich Prick
  
  American MSM is at derangement level 3, they will be moving to level 4 next week. Avoid any direct contact.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:40am
- Cantabrian
  
  The sad thing is that our media rely almost religiously on CNN as their one source of truth. So that is all the people of NZ are allowed to believe.
  How is CNN going to announce Trump’s win on Nov 3?
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:21am
  - Loddenthinks
    
    Fairly predictably – with images of “mostly peaceful” “protesters” expressing their First Amendment rights by rioting, looting, burning and attacking Trump supporters.
    
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    October 7, 2020 3:36pm
- Simon
  
  The coverage of Trump’s miraculous recovery has become biased to the point of disturbed.”
  
  Yep and Trump did warn them not to let Covid19 dominate their lives.
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:26am
- Jim
  
  I don’t think those are the reasons, although I don’t follow CNN either so have no idea what their message is in all that noise.
  
  Just based on the facts I can see what riles the left and pretty sure Trump is stirring them up deliberately. I’m no so sure it’s a good play though – except for his hardcore base that would vote for him no matter what, it doesn’t sit well with those with a more nuanced view.
  
  Consider:
  – COVID is a lot more deadly than the flu. Average flu deaths in US since 2010 is 37,000.
  – Trump is in a high risk group; he is the same age as Herman Cain.
  – Trump has the best healthcare money can’t buy, paid for by the state.
  – Trump is trying to dismantle the ACA without having any replacement. This is what the SCOTUS appointment rush is all about.
  
  So put all that together with a “Don’t worry about COVID-19” message and it’s pretty obvious that any thinking person would not be amused. He’s “not out of the woods” according to his doctors, yet is back to taunting mode.
  
  Even when you have a platinum PPO from Blue Shield, dealing with health insurance can still be a b*tch; just ask me! Really grinds my gears that POTUS is flaunting his state sponsored healthcare and telling the rest of us not to worry.
  
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  October 7, 2020 11:43am
- Fletch
  
  As Mark Levin pointed out on yesterday’s podcast, the media totally covered for the wheelchair-bound FDR as well as JFK’s health problems. They only complain about the president’s they don’t like.
  
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  October 7, 2020 1:05pm
  - Batman
    
    Levin in a disingenuous moron.
    
    He’s comparing a totally different time in history to 2020, when the incumbent violates those kinds of unspoken deals by calling the media enemies of the people.
    
    Fun fact: Grover Cleveland had cancer in his jaw and underwent facial surgery to remove it. The White House subsequently hid him ON A BOAT for the entire duration of his recovery and the media were never allowed near him until he came back like nothing happened ? so it is swings and roundabouts.
    
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    October 7, 2020 1:29pm
Happychappy

I am sick and tired of aour Prime Minister 3 years after Winston gave her the job to Govern NZ and all she has learnt to do is blame everyone else for her and the Coalition’s incompetence. It’s like listening to a stuck grammar phone record and listing to nine years of neglect of the RMA, Health, Immigration and many other problems she can’t fix sand it is so easy to play the blame game as the sheep are mesmerized by her lies, deciet and broken promises. So really can anyone that knows politics come with a answer of what she has achieved as if I start listing her failures it could take hours , so it really is sweet fanny adams apart from the money she throws about to people that don’t contribute in NZ.
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October 7, 2020 8:01am
- igm
  
  The party for leeches, losers, layabouts and perverts.
  Not one of them done a day’s work or made a personal dollar . . . could not get much lower.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:37am
  - Jim
    
    For a second there I thought this was about Trump
    
    …until I read parent comment. 🙂
    
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    October 8, 2020 2:30am
- Benedict Yu
  
  A while ago I set out to objectively look for achievements over the last 3 years. I don’t mean “give money to people”, I mean outcomes. Like “delivered more elective surgeries”.
  
  I could find none. They have managed to build quite a lot of public housing and they will deliver more over the next 2 years.
  
  https://kaingaora.govt.nz/developments-and-programmes/our-approach-to-building/
  
  Unlike Kiwibuild I get the impression Housing New Zealand knows what it is doing. But that is not an outcome. The numbers of people needing public housing is massively outpacing new builds.
  
  But I can’t find anything else. Nothing. Either no effect or massively damaging like the oil and gas exploration ban. Which is quite remarkable. Most governments manage to achieve something.
  
  If covid had never happened, I believe Simon Bridges would be PM by now.
  
  I would be interested if others can point to positive achievements I may have missed.
  
  Have nice day everyone.
  
  BY
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:44am
- lastmanstanding
  
  The Contrast
  
  Australia.
  1. Government allows tax payers to keep more of their hard earned.
  2. Government trusts taxpayers to spend their hard earned more wisely than Government.
  3. Government aims to grow the economy out of CV recession.
  4. Government aims for smaller Government.
  
  New Zealand.
  1. Government plans higher taxes more taxes and new taxes.
  2. Government spends ( mostly wastes) taxpayers hard earned.
  3. Government aims to tax way out of CV recession.
  4. Big Government aiming to be Bigger Government.
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:22am
  - Gulag1917
    
    Watch Labour voters move to Australia if Cindy gets in.
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:37am
- Catgurl13
  
  She’s had 3 years and achieved nothing because she is useless with no life experience for a 40 year old woman which is rather off.
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:26am
Tomtoddy

Leaders’ debates are a waste of time. TV fodder. It beats me why Collins and her team are not focusing a lot more on Labour’s failures. Lack of delivery and a failure of Ministers who are plainly useless. When Collins mentioned David Clark last night, Ardern plainly winced. I feel Collins is too rushed, too ad lib, too unstructured and needs to narrow down to a few negative points and a few positive ones and hammer them till they get picked up.

The other point they should be hammering is the wasted vote issue. There are a bunch of rats and mice parties on the right that collectively will take as much as 5% – 6% from National but not achieve anything because none of them are anywhere near the threshold. Labour doesn’t have that problem.
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October 7, 2020 8:01am
- stewmar
  
  There are a bunch of rats and mice parties on the right that collectively will take as much as 5% – 6% from National but not achieve anything because none of them are anywhere near the threshold. Labour doesn’t have that problem.
  
  Labour has that problem it’s called the Greens
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:05am
- peterwn
  
  Labour could have that problem – Green 4.9%
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:07am
  - Bobba Fret
    
    I will be having a celebratory drink (or three) if the Greens end on 4.9%. In fact I may not be commenting for a few days after the election as I would be so hungover.
    
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    October 7, 2020 8:30am
  - Happychappy
    
    Well if Eugene Sage keeps using her mouth instead of her brain they will even be lower than that peterwn. I think Federated Farmers are making a play for free grazing was one of her sarcastic comment over the fires in the South Islands Mackenzie Basin.
    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/rural/2020/10/farmers-push-back-after-cheap-shot-from-conservation-minister-say-they-aren-t-looking-for-free-anything.html
    This is definitely not the type of Politician we need in Government.
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:46am
- Prince
  
  It was a debate – you don’t get to set the agenda.
  Christchurch is a deep red town – was always going to be a struggle against that audience.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:09am
  - Tricati
    
    So true, and given it was hosted by ‘Stuff’, then Judith was on a hiding to nothing in regard to both the crowd and moderators.
    The positive was she held her own in a tribal labour environment, and no amount of MSM deflection could hide that fact.
    
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    October 7, 2020 8:25am
    - Tony Stuart
      
      I would venture to suggest that in terms of its effectiveness and its impact on the election result, last night’s debate was roughly equivalent to the purchase price recently paid for Stuff.
      
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      October 7, 2020 8:49am
    - tf78
      
      Tricati interesting poll in herald this morning on who won the debate. Polled 34,321 = Jacinda 44% Judith 51%.
      Interesting and hopeful.
      
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      October 7, 2020 8:50am
      - freethinker
        
        Amazed the Herald has that many readers.
        
        25 1
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        October 7, 2020 9:03am
      - sooty
        
        Must have been on the website!
        
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        October 7, 2020 10:33am
  - kowtow
    
    And the Media Party reporting it. This passes under “opinion” so the repeater gets to give his personal bias ethics free , not that that counts anymore …..did it ever ?
    
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300125774/election-2020-jacinda-ardern-seemed-to-finally-crack-it-in-raucous-the-press-leaders-debate
    
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    October 7, 2020 8:44am
    - alloytoo
      
      So maybe a draw?
      
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      October 7, 2020 10:49am
  - yossarian
    
    Imagine if it been in New Plymouth???
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:18am
  - MCos
    
    Jerry Brownlee, and his mates Matthew Doocey & Amy Adams give a certain blue balance to the city.
    Anyway the Nats machine should have made sure some of their people were in the crowd.
    
    Of course there’s always the possibility Judith Collins was fighting a losing battle.
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:25am
- PhilBest
  
  I think one of the biggest tragedies on the splintered true right, is that ACT has repelled all the Christians with their Euthanasia ploy. I sincerely hope they get multiple seats this time, going over the 5% threshold, but imagine how much more they could have got if they’d managed to get Leighton, Elliot, the Tamakis, and Billy TK to tell their supporters “vote ACT”. All these people might have had to agree to compromise on some things but the times demand it. National has sold out all the principles of enlightened western civilization that are these people’s constituencies.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:14am
  - SGA
    
    ACT has repelled all the Christians with their Euthanasia ploy.
    
    I think that you could argue that Seymour’s part in the process leading to the referendum has done ACT more good than harm overall.
    Anyhow, if ACT started developing its policies to appeal to the Christian right, it wouldn’t be ACT anymore (imho).
    
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    October 7, 2020 8:50am
    - alloytoo
      
      I would say, that even if one is opposed to the bill, Seymour’s constructive and transparent approach is in sharp contrast to the Cannabis referendum which feels decidedly underhanded,
      
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      October 7, 2020 10:52am
  - Tomtoddy
    
    You make some interesting points. There are two major divides in politics. Left and Right and then there is Conservative and Liberal. ACT in its early days straddled the Conservative/Liberal spectrum. It was deliberate. The simple idea was that on matters of social conscience MPs could vote as they liked.
    
    I think David Seymour partly out of desperation to get noticed and gain votes took on the euthanasia issue without realising the number of Conservatives who quietly supported the strong economic policies of ACT. I believe he lost as much support as he gained with the cause. ACT’s growing support now is coming mainly from Nats who think they have lost their way.
    
    Had ACT stuck with the broader approach on social conscience issues they could have built their support anyway, held the Conservatives and probably stopped the spawning of new small single issue parties that are fracturing the vote on the right. Too few people understand how to manage compromise in politics – after all that is what politics is ultimately – compromise. No one get all of their way.
    
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    October 7, 2020 9:02am
    - Australis
      
      In an MMP environment, the main Conservative and Progressive parties should abut, with both contesting the centre. The more one pushes over the centre line, the more support its flanking parties receive.
      
      To the right, there is scope for two flanking parties: one libertarian and one religious.
      
      To the left, there is scope for two flanking parties: one Green and one Maoist.
      
      The National Party seemed to deliberately push the centre line to the left (Muller/Kaye), losing both its economic liberals to ACT and its social conservatives to NC.
      
      When the party then self-corrected (Collins/Brownlee), the libertarians were unmoved but many social conservatives returned.
      
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      October 8, 2020 1:13pm
  - Classic Liberal
    
    Or: National has updated to be more socially liberal while financially conservative. I wouldn’t vote for them if they were anti gay for instance. Centre right socially liberal voters have been gained.
    
    Anyone in the centre who doesn’t want to pay bludgers to breed should vote Nat or Act.
    
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    October 7, 2020 9:10am
  - Critical Thinker
    
    As a Classical Liberal whom values basic human rights, and that has only voted National and ACT my entire life, I now know that I can’t give my party vote to either of those 2 parties. As they’ve both swung left. With “Labour-light” National being where Labour was 10 years ago. But mostly due to the leaders of those 2 parties being staunch proponents in passing the baby murder law this year. Even after a baby has been born ??
    
    So that unfortunately only leaves me with the New Conservatives. Whom I find unpalatable to my socially liberal sensibilities ?
    
    But what I do like about the New Conservatives is that they are VERY staunch activists for free speech/thought and reforming our abhorrent abortion law ??
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:38am
    - Classic Liberal
      
      I’ll give NCs one thing: they know the correct plural for ‘referendum’ is ‘referenda’.
      
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      October 7, 2020 1:00pm
- cas
  
  I like Steve Braunias who takes the piss out of everyone. This is the best summary of the debate I have seen.
  
  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/06/the-winner-of-the-third-nz-election-leaders-debate-death-jacinda-ardern-judith-collins
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:49am
  - Steve Todd
    
    And then, for contrast, we have these reviews: https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/06-10-2020/leaders-debate-3-election-2020-the-verdicts/, indicating it was a clean sweep for the prime minister.
    
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    October 7, 2020 11:55am
- yossarian
  
  Have to agree there are so many areas of attack that Judith could have used. Every time Jacinda would have made a promise, just whisper Kiwibuild.
  
  I would have gone hard that Labour can’t be trusted as all their major policy announcements from the last election have failed, so why trust them again.
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:17am
gorse

Ardern lost me when she said it was not a time to be changing direction in her summing up. Not that they are leading us in any particular direction anyway. She was trying to scare us with that line. H Clark used it exactly like that during the lead up to the election she lost. I hope the same transpires this time.
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October 7, 2020 8:05am
Natfan08

Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
With the Denise Lee email leak and Jacinda beating Judith in the debate last night (let’s be honest)… I feel that’s National’s election well and truly over, it is another 3 years of Cindy folks.
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October 7, 2020 8:05am
- Tony Stuart
  
  I disagree. It’s an absolute beat-up by Newshub. A junior back-bencher lost the plot because she wasn’t consulted; if that was an election-changing issue, we’d be going to the polls every week.
  
  As for last night’s debate, it was an absolute shambles, but most people won’t have seen it, because it wasn’t on TV. It was also a demonstration of just how well Paddy Gower ran the Newshub debate.
  
  I’m more concerned that One News, having promised weekly polls between now and the election, and having announced the last two results on the Monday night news is silent this week.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:28am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    As regards the poll, check out the graphic with the results of what 36,410 Herald readers thought:
    
    https://twitter.com/TonyStuart55/status/1313563511985823744
    
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    October 7, 2020 8:36am
    - Tony Stuart
      
      Poll update:
      
      Ardern 45%
      Collins 50%
      Draw 5%
      
      Total votes to date 40,358
      
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      October 7, 2020 9:58am
      - SB2
        
        Tony Stuart, details about sample size,it is in fact a representive sample and National internal polling?
        
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        October 7, 2020 12:43pm
      - Tony Stuart
        
        There are now 43,999 votes cast in that poll Stephie. Although it’s not scientific, that’s still a very significant number, and 44 times the size of the sample that Colmar Brunton polls.
        
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        October 7, 2020 1:16pm
  - doggone7
    
    A junior back-bencher is part of the team. There are not all that many National MPs from the middle part of Auckland.
    
    It’s bit like the captain of the rugby team not talking to one of the players about something in the game. Everything in the game affects them but this is something important that directly affects them.
    
    You want trust, buy-in, effort and performance? Alienating and ignoring some in the team is the way to do it?
    
    How can stuff in their electorate be outside their sphere, beyond their pay scale, their competence to be involved or even be informed? If that is the level ordinary MPs are at don’t be telling us they are worthy and capable representatives of the people part of a great functioning team and we should put them in Parliament.
    
    With all the events going on the incident will disappear but it was a poor work by Collins.
    
    At least when Simon Bridges made his infamous comment about Maureen Pugh it was in private and it was direct. Collins the bold politician was full frontal in public utterances about it but was too gutless to go the whole hog.
    
    Why didn’t she just say, “I don’t trust Lee, I don’t trust backbenchers, I’m going to make stuff up and that’s what’s going to happen.”
    
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    October 7, 2020 1:49pm
    - Loddenthinks
      
      “It’s [a] bit like the captain of the rugby team not talking to one of the players about something in the game.”
      
      No, it’s a bit like one of the reserves or dirty dirties (not in playing squad) emailing all the other players complaining that the Captain didn’t pick them. If that ever happened in the All Blacks that player would never play for the team again, and if they found the person that leaked the email, they’d get the same fate.
      
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      October 7, 2020 3:50pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  I like pulling Fraser House basement trolls pigtails.
  Labour are getting concerned because their selection is being withdrawn. Cinders has lost her sang froid and doesn’t know where to find it.
  
  Puka, the grrrrns are hitting 3% and getting more useless by the hour and NASA to spike their climate change worries announces energy from fusion (and alchemy too.)
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:29am
- bruceavon
  
  Not sure. It’s very hard to say. It has seemed to me like National over the past weeks, had a lot of momentum and may have grabbed a few points from Labour. But Ardern did well last night. Judith has basically not changed her debate style in the debates but Ardern has adapted and got better. She played off a favourable crowd well. Didn’t get bullied by Judith like the first one. But not sure who watched it and if it or any of them matter. And I do notice Ardern is getting huge crowds wherever she goes. I have also hoped the lazy left turnout might help, but there are polling booths everywhere. It’s never been easier. Who knows? I say it everytime but the next poll is crucial. I read we would get one last night. But I guess they might hold it till Thursday for the debate to get people to watch. Green vote will be crucial.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:44am
  - tf78
    
    bruce, if you call flapping your gums and your arms both at the same time, yes Jacinda did very well indeed.
    
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    October 7, 2020 9:18am
  - Catgurl13
    
    Jabbacindy has got worse with her constant babbling about nothing and horrid hand waving. Jabbacindy had to read from notes where Judith didn’t have any yet she answered everything very well. Cindy is the waffle queen who is the head girl at high school at the podium. So embarrassing she is.
    
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    October 7, 2020 9:56am
  - mark15
    
    ‘Ardern gets huge crowds everywhere’
    I wonder who busses them in.
    
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    October 7, 2020 12:24pm
Justitia

“Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression: this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media regardless of frontiers”. UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

OR

“Everyone shall have the right to express his opinion freely in such manner as would not be contrary to the principles of the Shari’a.” Declaration of Human Rights in Islam.

Which one will Hijabi Ardern choose?
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October 7, 2020 8:09am
- Classic Liberal
  
  Average Kiwis don’t get this. Unlike you and I they haven’t been watching European developments with concern. All they see is that a truly terrible thing happened here and they believe it’s because some people expressed concerns about Islamism.
  
  If Lab gets back in you and I can expect the stasi knock on the door. I’ve never done anything against Islamism except criticised its violence, but even such criticism will probably be ‘hate speech’.
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:28am
  - Loddenthinks
    
    I openly criticise its fanaticism, extremism and violence, and also mock its adherents for believing such arrant nonsense.
    
    I fully realise the latter makes me susceptible to the former but that’s kind of the point. You have to call out these dangerous clowns and shut them down before their foothold becomes a stronghold in this country.
    
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    October 7, 2020 3:55pm
I remember when

Interesting comment from a high country farmer suggesting the Lake Ohau fire is another example of ‘Green’ policy.
He said that DOC closing areas to grazing may have resulted in the fire getting out of hand.
So the lack of action on wilding pines and increased flammable material as the result of returning to the ‘natural state.’
Australia. United States and now New Zealand.
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October 7, 2020 8:12am
- Tomtoddy
  
  The Green lobby groups have been trying to kick pastoral leaseholders off the high country for decades. The leaseholders have virtual fee simple but recent governments have watered down the arrangement. Farmers have been concerned, very rightly that if the state took over the high country they would fail to manage it, letting weeds and pests go uncontrolled. They are now proved right.
  
  Minister Sage lied on TV the other night. The Ohau fire is a direct result of too much weed growth and insufficient management and control. Nothing to do with half a degree increase in warming. The Ohau fire will be repeated as sure as night follows day. It is vandalism and corruption by the state.
  
  These lands were in good hands when the farmers managed them and they produced some of the world’s best natural fibre – ultra-fine merino wool.
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:52am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    There’s now an open exposed surface primed for weed invasion and weed regrowth over 100s of hectares……
    Not sure that will be of great benefit to the biodiversity values of this region.
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:24am
Maggy Wassilieff

As I predicted a few days back.. It’s the Science Faculties that are first for the chop at our Universities.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/427732/massey-university-could-cut-up-to-100-science-jobs

Might be time for some Uni Science staff to start checking out who exactly is running their university.
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October 7, 2020 8:13am
- RW Capitalist
  
  How many political science staff have they taken on?
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:18am
- Sir Cullen's Sidekick
  
  Excellent news.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:23am
- hullkiwi
  
  ….and with the cut to science at the universities, where will be NZ’s R&D (there isnt much today) be in the future? And brand NZ, Ardern?
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:29am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    We will probably do as we have in the past… bring in “experts” from overseas who have no experience of NZ ecosystems /geography and who like to push their pet projects.
    
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    October 7, 2020 8:58am
    - hullkiwi
      
      It is not just science and environment that NZ has a problem with foreigners coming to NZ and trying to tell us how things should be. Try transport, urban/rural planning & uses.
      
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      October 7, 2020 9:43am
    - Loddenthinks
      
      Yes, and we can hazard a wild guess at what their pet projects are all about. “Climate change”, diversity, wokeness and wank.
      
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      October 7, 2020 4:09pm
- Pharmachick
  
  Eh, they started that in the 00s in the UK when they serially began shutting down chemistry and microbiology departments. Worked a treat until they had nobody left to make shampoo, paint, moisturizer, make up, cheese, yoghurt… etc Turns out the Science is useful and needed by millions. Who would’ve thought?
  
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  October 7, 2020 12:22pm
  - mark15
    
    Its cheaper to import it.
    What happens when nobody sells it to you matters not to the beancounters.
    
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    October 7, 2020 12:26pm
- artemisia
  
  Do those grads get relevant jobs? In New Zealand? Or take up offers from other countries? Or is it in response to budget cuts due to shrinking numbers of international students.
  
  I don’t know these answers, but maybe the unis do and that is why they are reducing offerings.
  
  I’m sure they are also reducing media studies and communications. (Just kidding.) I have told my lot they can expect plenty of help from me unless they get a credit card or enrol in media studies.
  
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  October 7, 2020 1:22pm
mikenmildagain

Today is the feast for Catholic demi-god, Saint Osyth, one of those amusing cephalophores. When a band of Danes came to Osyth’s nunnery, the demanded she worship their gods. She refused, so they cut off her head. Osyth then took her head in her hands, and walked with it to the church, where she fell dead on the threshold.
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October 7, 2020 8:14am
- Jimmy White
  
  St Osgyth Mike from the village of St Osyth.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:47am
  - Jimmy White
    
    St Osgyth Mike from the village of St Osyth.
    She was not a Catholic
    She was not a Demi God unlike your St Helen
    Story crap as it’s not mentioned at all by Bede.
    I could go on.
    
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    October 7, 2020 8:55am
    - mikenmildagain
      
      Hey, if only legends mentioned by the Venerable Bede counted, the literary history of Anglo-Saxon magic would be much less entertaining.
      
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      October 7, 2020 9:47am
      - Jimmy White
        
        Mike you could not even get her name right
        
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        October 7, 2020 12:26pm
      - mikenmildagain
        
        ‘Osgyth (or Osyth; died c. 700 AD) was an English saint. She is primarily commemorated in the village of Saint Osyth, Essex, near Colchester. Alternative spellings of her name include Sythe, Othith and Ositha.’
        
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        October 7, 2020 1:53pm
Surely Knott

Herald article on the ineffective child centred learning approach that is the core of our education and the lack of meaningful testing gets to the heart of the problem. NZ at the bottom of education standards and well behind oz, the uk, Canada and the USA in every core subject. It’s not working.
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October 7, 2020 8:16am
- RW Capitalist
  
  It was, partnership schools were helping…but someone cancelled those….
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:05am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Well, as the article points out…
  it is working for certain folks:
  
  Report author Briar Lipson, a former British maths teacher who helped set up two charitable low-decile primary schools in London, says encouraging children to choose what they want to learn entrenches the differences that children start school with.
  Such deference to relevance explains why the NZ Curriculum exacerbates variations between classrooms and schools. Rather than having a narrowing effect, it intensifies inequity.”
  
  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12370564
  
  Just another example of middle-upper class capture of NZ’s education system
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:07am
  - tf78
    
    I still think it is most important with early education to learn the basics, reading, writing and mathematics and stay in that class until you are accomplished at those. After that you can go off and do what makes you feel good. Just like building a house you need good foundations or you have nothing secure in the future.
    
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    October 7, 2020 9:23am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      I agree that the basics are a must… but I’m happy for pupils to move up with peers.
      
      The problem seems to be that some teachers/schools aren’t providing the back-up support for pupils who have missed out/ failed to grasp some of the basics.
      
      This work needs to be done before pupils arrive at secondary school.
      
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      October 7, 2020 9:53am
      - Gulag1917
        
        Inspirational teachers are needed and how many would you find in the state system?
        
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        October 7, 2020 10:50am
      - sooty
        
        What the kids need is to learn maori, that’ll help!
        Dilute the school time even further and making the kids dumber!
        
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        October 7, 2020 10:54am
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        I’d be pleased if the secondary school literacy pupils I see did know some everyday te reo.. I seem to have to explain/translate fairly common words or terms for them.
        
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        October 7, 2020 12:19pm
- Catgurl13
  
  Yet many schools claim that woke classrooms of kids walking around doing whatever they want is the best. My son got into trouble at intermediate because he asked the teacher what to do and he had no work to do?…..they were allowed to roam around doing whatever they wanted. This teacher had the gall to say my son had a bad attitude. I’m glad I asked him what this was about before growling. This teacher was known for taking Mon and Fri off all the time and the kids never did want work there.
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:04am
- surfing
  
  Let’s go back to the 80’s style and defund any attempts to ‘improve’ the education system.
  
  Although,would this be racist and against the principles of the treaty of waitangi?
  
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  October 7, 2020 11:35am
Observer of Life

I watched it up to the point where the female moderator waffled on and on in Maori. Seriously, just how many would have had a clue as to what she was saying. I figured at that point watching was going to be painful. Did I miss anything important?
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October 7, 2020 8:18am
- EssenX
  
  The funny thing is that she couldn’t pronounce Maori properly!
  
  The second thing is her name is Hindu in origin. First, some may argue that’s “cultural appropriation”. Secondly, she can’t pronounce her own name properly either!
  
  Zero credibility that woman.
  
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  October 7, 2020 3:30pm
Rusty

Why doesn’t Judith Collins bring up the PM’s wild prediction in March that 40-80,000 NZers would die of copvid-19 if we didn’t going hard into lockdown?

I haven’t heard her mention it in any of the debates or her election speeches.

Ask the PM to explain why even a 1000 people didn’t die during the lock downs and why only 25 people died?
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October 7, 2020 8:21am
- hullkiwi
  
  Because that is an argument that will not win back a single vote.
  
  I’m not saying it is a matter to be ignored, but arguing about numbers of deaths will endear Judith and National to nobody.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:34am
- bruceavon
  
  Because the covid response is widely regarded as a huge triumph. The less they get into that the better because it gives Ardern a chance to bang on about it. Judith always takes the line that National would have closed the borders earlier. It’s all she can really do there because otherwise you open up Ardern going on about how much better we did than the rest of the world. No thanks.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:51am
- Classic Liberal
  
  Rusty, that would be very much an own goal. Cindy’s answer: “Exactly, I saved all those lives!!”
  
  We know it’s untrue. Most of NZ doesn’t.
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:34am
  - yossarian
    
    Then respond that why don’t you close the country down to level 4 every flu season?
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:23am
- MCos
  
  “Why doesn’t Judith Collins bring up the PM’s wild prediction in March that 40-80,000 NZers would die of copvid-19 if we didn’t going hard into lockdown?”
  
  Two reasons.
  The PM didn’t say that & the Nats thought we weren’t hard enough. Not like Samoa.
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:36am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    No,
    The actual words the PM used were:
    
    “tens of thousands of New Zealanders will die”.
    
    “Last week, Jacinda Ardern said if she didn’t take the unprecedented step of locking down the entire country for a minimum of four weeks, “tens of thousands of New Zealanders will die”.
    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/new-modelling-shows-scale-of-covid-19-threat
    
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    October 7, 2020 11:00am
    - SB2
      
      MW, it would be based on Otago University research projections and modelling back in March that stated “tens of thousands could die ” if preventive measures against Covid 19 were not implemented ,
      
      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/413000/covid-19-14-000-could-die-in-nz-if-control-efforts-fail
      
      I suspect the PM is being misquoted.
      
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      October 7, 2020 12:33pm
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        Well, you go and tell Henry Cooke that he has misquoted Jacinda..
        
        “If community transmission takes off in New Zealand the number of cases will double every five days. If that happens unchecked, our health system will be inundated, and tens of thousands New Zealanders will die,” Ardern said.
        
        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120501534/coronavirus-jacinda-ardern-just-made-the-most-consequential-decision-of-her-career-putting-nz-on-house-arrest
        
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        October 7, 2020 1:17pm
      - SB2
        
        Note carefully,
        
        “If community transmission takes off..”
        
        ” If”
        
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        October 7, 2020 2:58pm
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        Why don’t you listen to what the PM said.. instead of dancing on the head of a pin and waffling on about misquoting and “if”…
        
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SC67XDsKIM(from about 2:20 in)
        
        It’s always been about “if”….
        If …. the virus is highly infectious
        if …it gets to NZ
        if… there is community transmission
        if…. our hospitals/emergency services aren’t prepared
        
        That is why I was posting about this virus back in February… when you were accusing me of fear-mongering.
        Remember?
        
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        October 7, 2020 3:36pm
I remember when

Yesterday Nature provided a perfect example of the state of play.
In the late afternoon, in a near gale force wind there were three ducks floating, drifting, almost motionless high in the sky.
Two drakes and one duck, obviously unmated, trying to gain late success.
Expectation, drive for success, competition, possible failure, desperation and for the female maybe a choice (maybe not).
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October 7, 2020 8:22am
Tony Stuart

So Shane Jones is going to dish out $100 million this Friday – to 300 marae around the country. And guess where the announcement will come; Northland, of course. The PGF funding has been signed off by Grant Robertson and Phil Twyford.

Is it the government’s core role to fund marae? Aren’t they administered by trusts and committees of iwi members? Lest I be accused of racism, I would say exactly the same if Jones was funding Rotary clubs to upgrade their premises, or golf clubs, or our local speedway, which could desperately do with a new concrete wall at a cost of around $200,000. And let’s not even start with green schools!

The Provincial Growth Fund is nothing but an electoral slush fund. In this case, Labour and NZF (with a majority of its caucus being Māori) want to shore up the Māori vote, and shore up Jones’ vote in Northland, where he is effectively NZF’s lifeline.

Of all the cynical funding promises made by the Ardern/Peters government, this is far and away the most cynical, and Jones seems to forget that the money he is giving out with such gay abandon is not his, but it’s ours.
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October 7, 2020 8:22am
- mandk
  
  This is probably the most scandalous PGF spend up of all.
  
  a) Marae are private facilities
  b) They are not accessible to most of the population
  c) Teh spending will do nothing to improve productivity
  d) The cost per job is $300,000.
  
  I can see why Jones wants the money, but Robertson and Twyford should be hung, drawn and quartered for approving the spending.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:34am
- Gravelroad
  
  When Jones holds his media event to boast about the dole out of this money, can some reporter pleeeeeease ask him for a progress update on his vow to smash the Green Party?
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:37am
  - 70andstilllearning
    
    Won’t happen up here – Advocate is owned by Ferald.
    
    Seems to be having a bit of a wack from reading this however, but I’d hardly call it smashing ’em !
    
    https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/the-country/audio/shane-jones-on-nz-firsts-drop-in-popularity-with-rural-new-zealand/
    
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    October 7, 2020 9:03am
- kowtow
  
  Where’s the Media Party on this scandal?
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:53am
  - sooty
    
    Bought off!
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:59am
- KevO'Brien
  
  The election should be cancelled for cheating and awarded to National by default.
  
  Is Parliament in session? Is this taxpayers money being sprayed around? Is this vote buying? Is the Electoral Commission asleep? Has this ever happened previously–NO.
  
  ThisCoalition of Losers, selected not elected, are damaging the reputation of Parliament. They do not hold Office as of right, most could not administer a cafe, belief and feelings are insufficient to make informed decisions and to see that those are turned into reality.
  How many COL MP’s are hammer handy? Do they have understanding of how the world actually works other than the closely defined twitterverse? If they borrow do they expect to pay it back? Do they even know if they have borrowed? Do they know that wars have been fought over the peoples’ right to have oversight over how their taxes are spent? Is having MP’s with large sums under their personal control an abuse of that? Have they respected their Oath of Allegiance to HM the Queen as members of her Executive Council for this realm?
  
  Do the COL deserve another term or apprehension for dereliction of duty?
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:12am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    Is Parliament in session?
    
    No, Parliament was formally dissolved by the Governor-General a couple of weeks ago. The Government is now acting in a caretaker capacity.
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:01am
    - 70andstilllearning
      
      According to Ardern at the time, caretaker provisions only apply from 17th Oct. Pretty bloody obvious then that they were going to breach by creating bucket loads of post election commitments around now, irrespective of whether they were still in government or not after election.
      
      Fiscal gross negligence.
      
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      October 7, 2020 10:42am
      - 70andstilllearning
        
        And this lot don’t give a damn about antiquated values like convention or ethics, those things are like farming – in the past!!!
        
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        October 7, 2020 11:10am
      - KevO'Brien
        
        Previously Parliaments have respected the convention that once Parliament was prorogued that was it. Caretaking was minimal.
        This woman, who cancelled Taranaki by her edict, is a rogue.
        
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        October 7, 2020 4:26pm
    - MCos
      
      The government is not a caretaker government.
      
      This occurs in the interim if the government loses a vote of confidence until a new one is sworn in.
      
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      October 7, 2020 10:43am
      - Tony Stuart
        
        OK – the term “caretaker government” is wrong. But there is a convention that the incumbent government will avoid controversial or politically contentious decisions during the election campaign period. That’s why National was calling on the Government to release the list of shovel ready and pending PGF decisions prior to the House rising.
        
        So much for the openess and transparency promised by the Prime Minister in late 2017. It’s not as if $100 million is a trifling sum of taxpayer money!
        
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        October 7, 2020 10:51am
      - MCos
        
        Here’s the relevant information.
        Basically government goes on almost as normal with a couple of exceptions.
        From what I can see Jones can do what he likes with the PGF in the interim.
        https://dpmc.govt.nz/our-business-units/cabinet-office/supporting-work-cabinet/elections
        
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        October 7, 2020 4:17pm
Maggie Pie

It’s a funny thing. Only last week we were discussing that in the nearly 20 years we’ve been paid up members of Remuera Racquets, we have never once met anyone who supports Labor.
Guess that goes the same for them when it comes to Tennis.
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October 7, 2020 8:24am
Gravelroad

National leadership spat: Paula Bennett rubbishes Matthew Hooton’s ‘utter disaster’ after barb over ‘no policy’

At the risk of starting an attack on here from gleeful left wing trolls – what do people make of this?
Are you kidding me?
Hooton.
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October 7, 2020 8:29am
- Tony Stuart
  
  Hooton is trying to stir things up, as is his wont. He should pull his head in, as should Paula Bennett, at least until 7pm on 17th October.
  
  National Party MP’s, candidates and rank and file members are working their arses off to change the government. The last thing they need is self-promoters like Mathew Hooton shit-stirring due to their personal agendas.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:42am
  - bruceavon
    
    Hooton has spent years telling everyone what should be done and how and why Nationals making mistakes, then he finally gets invited in and gets in the room with the leader and it all goes pear shaped. Setting aside Todd Mullers health issues the PR management was atrocious. The MAGA hat thing, the Maori in caucus thing and the Michael Woodhouse part of the leak sandal were all handled very poorly. Hooton is trying to rewrite history so he looks better. Good on Paula for calling BS on it.
    
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    October 7, 2020 9:02am
  - Gravelroad
    
    As a “ Non insider” and someone who has not entirely made up their mind re voting, it seems to me that Mr Hooton is actually an enemy of the National Party.
    My take-home message from this is that selfish “personal agendas” hold a lot of influence within the Party.
    Surely the focus should be on the voters, supporters and those who are willing to donate funds?
    
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    October 7, 2020 9:20am
- hullkiwi
  
  You are correct about the trolls. Hooton and his friends in caucus need a reality check. Hooton, Denise Lee and their friends in the caucus are brain dead, showing they have no interests in either the support of National voters or members. They are insulting everybody, by carrying on in this manner now, expect to roll Judith, and retain support.
  
  With whom do they think they are going to replace Judith?, I didn’t see a stampede for the leadership in July. What I did see in July were some MPs heading immediately to the exit or being herded to the exit after making fools of themselves.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:47am
  - Lance
    
    If the National caucus roll Judith after the election then I will never touch the National Party again with a barge poll.
    I have been a near life long supporter but this 5th column shit has to stop, and if it doesn’t, then National needs to start all over again without the traitorous bastards in house.
    It wouldn’t surprise me they are lefty plants, but anyway, they shouldn’t be able to ply their poison. They should be identified and rooted out.
    
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    October 7, 2020 9:48am
    - MCos
      
      The National Party has been around since the 30s. It’s had it ups and downs, but one thing is constant, unlike a plethora of other parties nobody is indispensable.
      
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      October 7, 2020 10:55am
      - Tony Stuart
        
        I presume your “plethora of other parties” includes the 2020 Labour Party, which is wholly dependent on Jacinda Ardern, who is regarded as indispensible.
        
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        October 7, 2020 11:09am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        I’m not so sure about that. Successful parties in NZ have always been built around the leader: Savage, Fraser, Holland, Holyoake, Kirk, Muldoon, Lange, Clark, and Key. Weak leaders, or leaders perceived as weak, have struggled: Nash, Marshall, Rowling, McClay, Palmer, Shipley, Goff, and English (plus a few more).
        
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        October 7, 2020 11:18am
      - MCos
        
        I’m talking about the parties that rely on one person for their long term relevance. The obvious one right now is NZF. ACT would struggle without Seymour, but they’ve staggered on in the past. Social Credit, Alliance, Māori Party, Conservatives, Bob Jones’s party, TOP, all relied on one or two strong personalities.
        Labour & National have done well under strong leadership, but they’ve survived as principal opposition party at other times.
        
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        October 7, 2020 12:40pm
    - Batman
      
      The Judith experiment is a Hail Mary play. It is risky and likely not to work.
      
      If they lose, which is highly likely, they should have a serious conversation before Christmas about the leadership of the party and the need to appeal to a broad swath of voters with someone new (who hasn’t been a national figure for a decade).
      
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      October 7, 2020 11:06am
      - hullkiwi
        
        Like who, Chris Luxon? He is not even a MP yet, how do you know he is a suitable parliamentary leader, and what of all the hurt egos and stood on toes with that proposition.
        
        What you don’t appreciate is that National’s leadership upto 2017 was built around Key and English. After Enlish there was only the Anyone but Collins candidates and look at what that has done.
        
        Also, it is hardly Collins fault National was at 25% in opinion polls in July. Indeed, her record to the time Muller stood down was to support the leadership, even if it was problematic. You can’t point the finger at her about running to the press about leadership issues within caucus as occurred to Bridges thanks to Ross.
        
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        October 7, 2020 2:50pm
  - tf78
    
    Denise Lee has bought the Council Culture into parliament and they just don’t mix. They usually go from Parliament to council not the other way around.
    
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    October 7, 2020 12:28pm
    - hullkiwi
      
      Yes, and she would do well to remember the advice of Keith Holyoake to his “Young Turks” in 1960, “learn to breathe through your nose” rather than have delusions of self importance.
      
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      October 7, 2020 2:53pm
Mags

Interesting to see that Jacinda had her Great Bug Book Of Answers for the debate last night, while Judith was mostly off the cuff. I thought the idea of these debates was that you knew your stuff and were able to articulate that, rather than hunting for the answers from your notebook.
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October 7, 2020 8:35am
- 70andstilllearning
  
  On your left a child who hasn’t developed memory retention.
  On your right – an adult.
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:10am
Hard Cheese

Absolutely clueless.

“I don’t know how data centres are going to help climate change,” Ardern said.

How does she think companies all over NZ enabled their staff to work remotely during lockdown and not have to drive or take a bus into the office? How did all those Teams and Zoom meetings happen that saved people having to fly all over the country?

What a muppet.
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October 7, 2020 8:35am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Collins made a good point that Ardern clearly hasn’t got a clue as to how technology is being used in NZ companies/businesses/start-ups.
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:14am
- Classic Liberal
  
  It happened by Cindydust magic ? because Cindy said so!!
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:43am
- Catgurl13
  
  [Mod: no grossly offensive nicknames] really put both feet in her mouth with at stupid idiotic comment.
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:31am
- Prince
  
  Not to mention the energy consumption, water recirculation (or not), diesel used etc etc. Green Data Centres are all the rage globally. Our PM doesn’t have the first clue.
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:42am
- tf78
  
  I saw on an English TV show farmers using CCTV to keep an eye on ewes lambing. That’s a great idea.
  
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  October 7, 2020 12:30pm
Inandout

Nash couldn’t give a number of how many jobs Jones’ has created with his regional slush fund. Nash did say ‘thousands’ of jobs are coming to Kihikihi, a number Hosking questioned because the town’s total population is about 2,300. The slush fund in effect has created bugger all jobs and is a good indicator why politicians should face legal action for wantonly wasting taxpayers funds.
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October 7, 2020 8:38am
- Tony Stuart
  
  I think you’ll find Nash was talking about Opotiki, where the government has invested in aquaculture. Kihikihi is some distance from the sea! The point in terms of jobs versus population is valid though.
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:54am
  - Inandout
    
    TS, you are correct, early in the morning, misheard, but a comment was made about the ‘thousands of jobs’ (in an area of 5,000 people). Has anyone a reliable number of real jobs created by Jones?
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:23am
- tf78
  
  Inandout – misappropriation I think it used to be called.
  
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  October 7, 2020 12:31pm
mandk

This ought to cause a return to didacticism in education, but I fear it will be overlooked.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/123002117/new-zealand-initiative-calls-for-revamp-of-unscientific-curriculum-and-childled-philosophy
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October 7, 2020 8:42am
- Ruahine
  
  Similar story in the Herald.
  Being dissed because the criticism is ‘Eurocentric’
  
  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12370564
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:07am
  - mandk
    
    Blast those Europeans, they are being so unfair, teaching their kids to be better at literacy and numeracy than ours.
    
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    October 7, 2020 9:17am
    - Classic Liberal
      
      And damn the Asian immigrants getting even better at all this European education! How dare they be parent led, work hard and achieve high marks!
      
      Tell you what, let’s ensure they can’t get into med school despite that bc all the places are taken by lower grade but ‘disadvantaged’ people.
      
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      October 7, 2020 9:48am
- 70andstilllearning
  
  A recent practice we’ve heard:
  Teacher: “We don’t correct spelling now – it might discourage creativity.”
  
  In the real world I once had a boss who couldn’t necessarily understand the technical’s of a report but took glee in picking up the typo’s to prove he had read it.
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:27am
  - mandk
    
    I see what you did there.
    Two redundant apostrophes.
    
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    October 7, 2020 9:48am
    - 70andstilllearning
      
      Lol. Fourier Transforms, Mixed Model ANONA’s, etc,etc….. sweet. Quantifiable and can be replicated.
      Linguistics – subjective, ambiguous, contextual,etc, etc….
      So left brained, right thinking – whatever that may actually mean to you 🙂
      
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      October 7, 2020 3:18pm
  - Pharmachick
    
    Try teaching possessive vs. contraction apostrophe use, the Oxford comma, orphans/widows… meh, I’m wasting my breath.
    
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    October 7, 2020 12:45pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  When education goes largely female orientated, including preferring female teachers what is to be expected? On balance women are much more language orientated than men. Many women will say “they are no good at maths.” A generality with a kernel of truth. Not all brains are the same.
  
  There are some amazing women mathematicians and scientists. Maths and music often goes together too but where have the women programmers gone? Once there was COBOL and they revelled in it. Then the mathematicians got into programming languages as being assemblies of provable algorithms. They required a different type of mind to work with them.
  
  There are genetic threads in the human population. The women are more switched on to working with social matters, not surprising in their role as potential bringers of new life.
  
  The feminization of our schools must be a concern. Boys are not young women in drag.
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:35am
  - GreenYarn
    
    Briar Lipson who is calling the current education system “unscientific” (and rightly so) is a female Mathematics teacher. And John Hattie, who defends the status quo in the Herald Article, is a man. Just thought I’d point it out.
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:07am
Maggie Pie

On a positive note, nobody has died of ‘old age’ since March.
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October 7, 2020 8:58am
Tony Stuart

The most interesting line in last night’s debate wasn’t the one about disrespecting Samoa, or Gerry Brownlee running the border. No, it was the one where the Prime Minister dropped her mask for a moment:

“You’ve seen up close how I operate as a government”

Plenty of people have noticed how the PM regularly uses the pronoun “I” in addressing the media, rather than the more usual collective of “we”. Now however, it’s out in the open.

Jacinda Ardern is the Government, and the Government is Jacinda Ardern. I wonder what her ministerial colleagues make of that. Has the notion of collective Cabinet accountability, where all Ministers are judged on Cabinet’s decision been replaced by singular Jacinda accountability, and is this the openness and transparency Ms Ardern promised us?
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October 7, 2020 9:19am
- Philview
  
  There are independent silos. For example Andrew Little has a silo where he is given free reign and I doubt Jacinda would dare contradict what Andrew does. There seems to be a Labour Maori silo and Jacinda also wouldn’t dare stand up to their requests. Jacinda’s real power is over most of the media.
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:47am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    Whilst Jacinda might not contradict Andrew Little, Winston Peters rolled him over the repeal of the Three Strikes legislation. Peters also rolled Twyford over Auckland Light Rail, and Robertson and Ardern over the CGT. Perhaps Ardern is not as powerful in real life as she believes herself to be.
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:07am
  - Suze Wainwright
    
    Oh come on! Susie Fergusson is easily the nation of aotearoa’s most unbiased, fair-minded, non-agenda based reporter available. Never more evident than in her put down session with JC this morning.
    
    SF actually sounded pissed with Jane Patterson that she didn’t declare JC the resounding loser in last night’s debate
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:47am
- zulumonster
  
  “I wonder what her ministerial colleagues make of that.”
  I suspect as long as they get their snouts back in the trough come 18th October they couldn’t give a damn … and let’s face it, she’s their best (only?) shot …
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:42am
rangitoto

Meanwhile in the UK:

“The ONS report also showed that five times as many people are dying with flu and pneumonia than with Covid-19, with 1,172 dying in the week ending September 25, compared to 215 with coronavirus.”
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October 7, 2020 9:26am
Billy Collins

Multiple people at CNN, the most trusted name in news and not at all TDS suffers and fearmongers, are now openly claiming crazy conspiracy theories.

Harvard Professor and CNN analyst, Julliette Kayyem is claiming there are russian spies inside Walter Reed.

https://twitter.com/juliettekayyem/status/1312436561045188608?s=20

Brian Stelter is legitimately claiming that the President, the hospital, and the Associated Press are conspiring to cover-up Trump’s actually health status.

https://twitter.com/brianstelter/status/1313427872070205446?s=20
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October 7, 2020 9:31am
- Classic Liberal
  
  Not TDS sufferers /sarc.
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:57am
- Batman
  
  Given Mark Meadow’s and Dr Conley have been all over the place and very evasive about his condition, it is fairly obvious that they are covering up the real health picture.
  
  Pretty much any doctor paying attention would tell you that, and they have been.
  
  The days of the White House being able to control the narrative in situations like this are long gone.
  
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  October 7, 2020 11:15am
I remember when

Why is “Labour criticises Nationals costings” ever a headline.
What seems to be missing is any in depth analysis of costings and possibility of under costing of the various Labour policies.
Do the Media even know, let’s say within $4 billion (a perfect example), what the total costing of Labour election promises are?
How many announcements are even new policy?
Why is it better to hand money out than it is to restrict handouts considered unnecessary?
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October 7, 2020 9:34am
- Philview
  
  I was talking to a business client yesterday who has never mentioned politics before. He said watching the media reporting of these debates has really opened his eyes that Jacinda controls the NZ media. I wonder how many other people are starting to see this. TVNZ dropped their Monday poll this week after promising a weekly Monday poll until the election. Why is that?
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:53am
  - sooty
    
    Losing voters, maybe!
    
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    October 7, 2020 11:13am
Maggie Pie

My fave line from last night…..Collins to Adhern:

“So where did Covid19 come from? A rock in your garden!”

😀 😀 😀
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October 7, 2020 9:41am
Than

The latest FiveThirtyEight US Presidential Election Forecast has Biden at an 82% chance of winning, Trump at 17%. And a clear trend has emerged in this model over the past month or so. Trump’s odds of winning have been gradually but steadily going down, dropping about a percent every couple of days.

The reason for this decline is clear enough – Trump is simply running out of time.

The polls have remained steadily in Biden’s favor, both nationally and in key states. Every day closer to the election that this remains true Trump’s odds of winning go down.

I’m sure Cult of Trump sycophants will try and comfort themselves by repeating their delusional mantra “the polls were wrong is 2016”. Well, just for comparison, the FiveThirtyEight final forecast before election day 2016 gave Trump a 29% chance of winning. If the current trend line continues, Trump’s odds of winning will be somewhere around 5-10% on November 3.
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October 7, 2020 9:46am
- Cinematic
  
  There’s a desperate edge to these poll posts. Posters like Than doth protest too much, methinks.
  
  Dislike for Trump does not a vote for Biden make.
  
  Biden is a pathetic candidate by any measure.
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:23am
  - Batman
    
    Merely outlining the reality for the more delusional sycophants among the Trump club.
    
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    October 7, 2020 1:32pm
- Classic Liberal
  
  Ok, but Styx tends to be correct: Trump rising trajectory. But his final message: “don’t let anyone give you a solid prediction until after the final debate”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g787bVHsvf4
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:24am
I remember when

A lot of talking and writing about 100% renewable energy.
Nothing about the areas where lack of sunshine hours make solar power difficult.
Nothing really about ‘pumped power’, the upside and downside.
What plans are there in place for the mountain of plastic turbine blade, the recycling of solar panels and last, but no least, the increased volume of used batteries.
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October 7, 2020 9:48am
artemisia

Ms Lee’s caucus career now in tatters. The leaker is equally culpable if not more so, and might be harder to pinpoint, in such a large caucus unless the leaker fesses up. There will be plenty of rumours and sideways glances, not a good look for a united caucus.

Not surprising if Ms Collins asked each of her MPs a straight question, including those retiring next week.
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October 7, 2020 9:53am
- Catgurl13
  
  She should be booted out. What a twit!!
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:11am
  - artemisia
    
    I wonder what Ms Lee was thinking? Or maybe she was not thinking.Maybe she thought now JLR no longer in caucus everyone’s mouth would be zipped. Ok, not thinking then.
    
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    October 7, 2020 11:19am
Billy Collins

I want Trump to win, but can anyone on team Trump defend this?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1313551795646541824?s=20

Now both sides are holding the American people hostage?
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October 7, 2020 9:53am
- Libertarians are right
  
  The options are:
  Nothing
  or
  Way too much for the sole purpose of bailing out poorly run Democrat states.
  
  What should he do?
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:24am
- Classic Liberal
  
  What exactly is the problem?
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:27am
- Critical Thinker
  
  “Nancy Pelosi is asking for $2.4 Trillion Dollars to bailout poorly run, high crime, Democrat States, money that is in no way related to COVID-19.”
  
  Of course he shouldn’t bailout the Democrats for implementing unconstitutional lockdowns, and whom have fomented a communist insurrection that has caused a massive amount of destruction and death. With much of that bailout money being earmarked for things that have nothing to do with Covid or the self inflicted destruction wrought ?
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:53am
- RJ
  
  Plenty of things in New Zealand jacindy could of done but says we have to elect her to get her to do.
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:54am
- ISeeRed
  
  I would say for those who generally support Trump or at least aren’t antagonistic towards him, the deficit spending and debt stacking are a concern, even if he’s just following his predecessor’s borrowing binge.
  
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  October 7, 2020 12:34pm
  - Batman
    
    ISR: the deficit has gone up far more than it did under Obama.
    
    Maths! As the Yang Gang would say.
    
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    October 7, 2020 1:38pm
- Inandout
  
  The Dems have acted appallingly over their cities being burned and looted continuously. Pelosi is a very weird woman and deserves a political thrashing.
  
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  October 7, 2020 12:38pm
- Batman
  
  Ignore the rhetoric from Trump.
  
  He is simply acting against his own raw political interest by doing this. Turning down an economic stimulus on purity grounds is some dumbarse shit that the Green Party would do here. It’s weeks until the election and he has signalled “fuck you” to moderates and independents.
  
  His base will love it, as we see in the comments here, and lap it up as they’re so drunk on kool aid that they don’t know which way is up. But they won’t win him the election because they’re already voting for him.
  
  Long story short: he’s fucking himself in public.
  
  Awkward.
  
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  October 7, 2020 1:37pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Why should Trump bail out shithole Democrat States that are in that state because the Dems don’t give a fuck about those who vote for them?
  The swamp is much larger than Trump thought. All Trump did was picked off a scab and exposed the Democrats for what they are – a festering sore. Been a festering sore for 4 decades.
  
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  October 7, 2020 5:54pm
Happychappy

Anyone got any idea if the ad that we donated to will be making its debut as there ain’t many days left before the Election.
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October 7, 2020 10:06am
fightingtemeraire

Go to The Guardian and scroll down to the NZ section and read Steve Braunias on the ChCh debate.

He isnt very complimentary about Jacinda
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October 7, 2020 10:09am
- RJ
  
  Article
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:30am
Bobba Fret

And I hear we have now lost the ASB Classic Tennis in Auckland. Megan Woods saying they wanted public and players in the same bubble? The people organising have called BS on that.
So once again, Labour say it’s not our fault. The blame game has begun.
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October 7, 2020 10:09am
- Tony Stuart
  
  Yep. I tweeted yesterday that in losing the Youth America’s Cup, the Rugby Championship and the ASB Classic, the Government, and in particular Grant Robertson and Phil Twyford have presided over a capsize, a dropped ball and an unforced error.
  
  I was then advised that the Australian Baseball League has dropped plans to locate one conference of the ABL in New Zealand in early 2021, so the Government appears to have struck out as well.
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:32am
  - RJ
    
    Great, plane loads of Indians who can’t speak English can come into the country, but not the youth Americans cup. Stupid. Let’s just keep bringing in people from high risk areas, stupid bleeep of government
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:41am
    - Classic Liberal
      
      Indians who can’t speak English? I’ve yet to meet any. Ones I’ve met are a hard working lot who want proper education for their kids. We could do worse.
      
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      October 7, 2020 10:56am
      - RJ
        
        Well according to someone that I won’t say what their job was to not get them in trouble but meet with each on the plane, not a single one of them spoke any english. So I’d take their first hand knowledge over you
        
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        October 7, 2020 11:10am
      - ISeeRed
        
        I’m surprised how poorly some (not all or many) Indians speak English who have still managed to get work visas here. Then again, they live with other Indians, and congregate with other Indians at work. They don’t interact with the locals much. They will (deliberately and rudely) speak Hindi, Punjabi etc. in front of customers and other staff who don’t speak it. Worse, from a Kiwi who secretly learned some Hindi when she was working at Domino’s Pizza, the things they will (sometimes) say about customers, staff and NZ in general would be considered grossly offensive and downright racist if expressed in English. But “diversity” and “multiculturalism” will make us a more tolerant and open society, apparently, even as we let in intolerant and close-minded foreigners who only want to enrich themselves via our welfare state, not integrate and become “new New Zealanders”. (Remember, what they often say in English is different and opposite to what they actually think and express in their native languages.)
        
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        October 7, 2020 12:48pm
  - Captain Mainwaring
    
    What’s so hard about having an international tennis tournament in Auckland in January when there is one happening in Paris right now?
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:57am
  - alex Masterley
    
    The loss of the Youth Americas’s Cup annoyed me immensely, not just because I am a yachtie.
    It demonstrated how useless MBIE is. A can’t do attitude pervades the whole department.
    They then had the gall to come back to the RNZYS and quietly ask if the event could be re-instated. That suggestion was turned down as, amongst other reasons, it would have made us, the RNZYS, look like noddies instead of MBIE.
    
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    October 7, 2020 3:54pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  If those leftie bastards get back in, they will be blaming Covid for another 3 years. We all know who is at fault, but Jaspinda is Queen of the Nation and can do no evil. Fuck off. South Venezuela here we come in 5 to 8 years if these commies win
  
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  October 7, 2020 6:00pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Never mind the editing. Jaspinda will do ‘socialism’ correctly this time, not like all of the murderous previous times it has been done. First they came for your guns …. NZ has been there, done that. Next step, make petrol so expensive you can not afford it. Put up TAXES on whatever you can get away with.
    Got the idea of how they will control you? At least the current rulers have not started shooting their own citizens – yet
    
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    October 7, 2020 6:07pm
Catgurl13

Jabbacindy last night in that press leaders debate was so cringe. She reminds me of a hippy head girl at high school, trying to convince everyone to join her church. She has absolutely no idea about anything. Her lack of life experience shows big time. She lives in utter Dreamland. This woman wasn’t even elected,something she keeps forgetting. She talks fluff and nonsense as well as looking desperate trying plead with everyone to vote for her. We need to get this idiotic dangerous twit out of power before our country is well and truly wrecked,by stupid woke morons living on another planet.
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October 7, 2020 10:19am
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  Beautiful. Wish I could give you 100 upticks.
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:58am
- kowtow
  
  Dreamland indeed.
  What the idiot voters who swung so heavily to labour when Little was rolled and the breath of fresh air Ardern was presented to them is that socialism is a utopian ideology , unattainable .
  
  And eliminading de virus is also impossible , that’s more utopianism.
  
  The problem is that socialist utopia leads to real life dystopia. Which we are now witnessing.
  
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  October 7, 2020 11:11am
- JerJer
  
  Yes, cindy was in full retard mode last night. Promising KiwiBuild, Light rail between multiple places now, not knowing how much milk or lamb costs, but being very accurate with NetFlix costs……
  
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  October 7, 2020 11:35am
- KevO'Brien
  
  I wished I said that. I try not to stir the rats nest but it has to be done.
  
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  October 7, 2020 4:47pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  I am waiting for Google Translate to come up with Jaspindaspeak to English
  
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  October 7, 2020 6:12pm
Fisiani2

The weekly TVNZ poll was not published on Monday as promised nor was it published yesterday. You may wonder why they have not published it. The figures show a surge in National support which does not suit TVNZ
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October 7, 2020 10:28am
- Batman
  
  Did they promise a poll this week though? They’re not scheduled as weekly.
  
  They do have another debate so I suspect they’ll extend and announce it right before that.
  
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  October 7, 2020 10:31am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    Yes, two Mondays ago they said they would be polling weekly.
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:33am
    - lifesgood
      
      Uh, oh…trouble at mill.
      
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      October 7, 2020 3:37pm
  - Prince
    
    They were promised weekly.
    
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    October 7, 2020 10:45am
  - bruceavon
    
    They will do it on Thursday to try and get someone to watch the debate. I am interested in the Next Reid TV3 one too. They tend to be the most accurate based on election results
    
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    October 7, 2020 11:15am
    - Libertarians are right
      
      Historically accurate. Their use of a web panel is new and accounts for 30% of their sample size so historical accuracy is entirely irrelevant now.
      
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      October 7, 2020 11:40am
      - bruceavon
        
        I think Colmar Brunton have radically changed their system too, so we can only tell after the election I guess.
        
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        October 7, 2020 6:47pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Err, they may have meant ‘weakly’
    
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    October 7, 2020 6:13pm
RJ

Statement from one of the members on the German covid investigation committee

Crimes against Humanity
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October 7, 2020 10:37am
- Classic Liberal
  
  Long and complex but v worth it.
  
  One essential point: PCR tests detect a fragment, not real infection. Lockdowns and economic ruin and loss of freedom have been based on unscientific tests and panic.
  
  But watch the whole thing, many other points.
  
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  October 7, 2020 11:51am
- SB2
  
  RJ, this captures the spirit of the blather,
  
  Nobody Nobody
  
  I hope you bring a lot of people to justice over this fake scamdemic.
  
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  October 7, 2020 12:38pm
Maggie Pie

Just been doing a few advanced Yoga moves and listening to Winston Peters while he’s been on with Kerry Woodham. It’s not easy sticking your head between your legs.
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October 7, 2020 11:02am
- sooty
  
  You must be a hoot at parties!
  
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  October 7, 2020 4:40pm
SB2

I notice from time to time misinformation is posted on KB regarding Rachel Carson and her famed book Silent Spring.A book that ushered in a revolution in environmental awareness and how ecological systems and wild life were been seriously affected by the indiscriminate use of pesticides especially those like DDT.

One of the first things to note that her book was responsible for the banning of DDT in the USA and the legislation for that was passed in 1972 by the Republican Nixon administration.At the time various bird species in the US were been driven to extinction due to the overuse of DDT. Not an international ban.

Secondly less toxic alternatives were developed to replace DDT used internationally to combat malaria and the Mosquito born diseases which is discussed here ,

(http://www.pan-germany.org/download/ddt/phasing_in_alternatives_to_ddt.pdf )

Thirdly the presence and persistence of o Malaria etc has no relationship to the banning of DDT and more to do with the willingness and committment of third world governments to eradicate malaria ( a great many do ). Furthermore it requires well developed and strong infrastructures ( Public health , water reticulation and drainage, envioromenmatal management etc) to combat the disease.

Next the persistence of Malaria has a lot more ore to do with Evolution ie.Mosquitos building resistance to pesticides like DDT.

It has nothing do with the banning of DDT that correctly belongs to the dustbin of history.

https://e360.yale.edu/features/rachel_carsons_critics_keep_on_but_she_told_truth_about_ddt
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October 7, 2020 11:08am
- alloytoo
  
  DDT is still being used for indoor applications where is it effective in combating malaria, keeping cases down.
  
  Even where there are resistant mosquitoes they apparently avoid surfaces treated with DDT.
  
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  October 7, 2020 1:36pm
  - Inandout
    
    alloy, and in remote parts of China DDT is the insecticide of choice.
    
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    October 7, 2020 2:44pm
    - alloytoo
      
      Eastern coast of South Africa to the north and Mozambique.
      
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      October 7, 2020 6:55pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  Can we use it on the Fraser House basement to get rid of the bugs?
  
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  October 7, 2020 4:44pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Only one bug there
    
    2 2
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    October 7, 2020 6:15pm
  - chukar
    
    The problem is that many of new synthetic insecticides just don’t work.
    Ask any farmer who has been coerced into using these for lice control.
    Pour ons , and many insect growth regulators are now not delivering worthwhile results.This means discomfort for the animals and reduced productivity.
    Actually this is an absolute scandal!
    
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    October 7, 2020 8:42pm
mikenmildagain

RIP Eddie Van Halen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5txwFv-zYM&ab_channel=VHTelevision
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October 7, 2020 11:26am
surfing

[deleted by Mod]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12371083

[Mod: paras deleted for a slur against an entire group of people, a breach of the rules.]
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October 7, 2020 11:37am
I remember when

O’Brien calls out Richardson for defending Brownlee’s ‘unfair attack on reporter:
‘Then he lashes out at one of our junior, absolute stars of our newsroom, 18 year old reporter’
So is she a junior reporter feeling her way, or is she a ‘star’ who should be used to rude treatment?
Let’s ignore the fact that an 18 year old is ‘one of the stars’ of the newsroom.
Low ceiling?
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October 7, 2020 11:56am
- lifesgood
  
  Yep, low ceiling. How on earth can an 18 year old be a star. Doesn’t say much for the old hacks hanging around the place, does it?
  
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  October 7, 2020 3:36pm
Happychappy

Will the Country get a opology from Andrew Little ,Jacinda Ardern and Winston Peter’s before the Election over how much money has been spent in their witchhunt against John Key and their failure to find any evidence or body’s in Pike River Mine. We have had to listen to the troutmouths and watched the millions of dollars treble in this charade and the fraudulent statements made and now we are finally being told they see no hope of a recovery and want to bury this story before the Election.
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October 7, 2020 12:17pm
- JamesP
  
  Nope. They’ll maintain the “possible recovery” charade for another 9-10 weeks before reaching the inevitable conclusion just prior to Christmas when nobody is paying attention.
  
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  October 7, 2020 1:01pm
- Gravelroad
  
  One of the casual workers here today just came in and had heard on the truck radio Winston Peters repeating the lie about sewage flowing down the walls of Middlemore Hospital. “He just told lie after lie”.
  Also blustered and diverted about Mr Jones’ latest handouts and subsidies to his mates up north.
  Peters must have totally lost all credibility- again.
  
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  October 7, 2020 2:44pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  No apologies and no redress either.
  Were are going to have a find a way to sanction rogue MP’s. MMP is a farce, even G&S couldn’t have invented a better one. As for Robbo–Poohbah.
  
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  October 7, 2020 4:42pm
Prince

The latest poll results must be dire for Labour. Stuff, on their live blog, are placing photos of a nasty, snarling Collins all along their blog, balanced by a smiling Ardern.
Stuff are also claiming National ‘place’ supporters along the walkabouts for Collins. For goodness sake, every Party tries t get their supporters out when the leader comes to town. At best naive, but more probably just outright biased from Stuff.
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October 7, 2020 12:29pm
Maggie Pie

There’s a chemist shop in Newmarket with boxes of Disposable Face Masks outside the front door.
Sign says “Pack of 50. Were $49.95 NOW $14.95”

LOL!!
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October 7, 2020 12:53pm
- Catgurl13
  
  Just get an old bra and hook the straps over your ears lol
  
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  October 7, 2020 1:16pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    One like this would probably do the trick 😛
    
    https://twitter.com/secretsexpot/status/1313583445952606209
    
    2 4
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    October 7, 2020 2:04pm
- Inandout
  
  MP, ah Newmarket. Once the richest and smallest borough in NZ before being sucked into the Super City. Used to be one square mile in area I believe.
  
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  October 7, 2020 2:47pm
Jack5

Logic apple falls far from tree …

A Hooerald commentator says New Zealand produces the world’s heaviest yield of apples and pears per hectare.

Interesting. But then:

“Conclusion: We have some of the best fruit pickers.”

We probably do, but can they take credit for the amount of apples on trees?

A tip for the Melanesians and Polynesians who work in orchards as temporary workers. Other countries are looking for guest-worker pickers, too.

Mechanisation will push up productivity of human pickers, and robots will harvest apples hardest to reach. But everyone sees, or at least says they see, these systems enhancing labour productivity, not replacing human hands.

The big New Zealand orchardist, T&G Global (formerly Turners and Growers), is working with American researchers on a robot system, according to this report from the United States:

https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/03/28/239350/a-robot-apple-picker-is-using-machine-vision-to-harvest-fruit-in-new-zealand/
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October 7, 2020 1:20pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  I expect complete automation of the apple picking in time.
  
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  October 7, 2020 4:37pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    You mean that the morons will be controlled? No way, they are too fucking stupid to work.
    
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    October 7, 2020 6:20pm
Fletch

James O’Keefe from Project Veritas responds to the hit piece on him that one of you (Batman?) posted about yesterday. Totally made up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAZfQ7CpdKk
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October 7, 2020 1:49pm
- SB2
  
  “James O’Keefe from Project Veritas”
  
  LOL
  
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  October 7, 2020 3:00pm
- Batman
  
  He can say it’s made up all he likes, it doesn’t make it so.
  
  O’keefe had a long history of these botched plays and you’re welcome to believe them, but it won’t do you much good.
  
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  October 7, 2020 3:36pm
Critical Thinker

“I have fully authorized the total Declassification of any & all documents pertaining to the single greatest political CRIME in American History, the Russia Hoax. Likewise, the Hillary Clinton Email Scandal. No redactions!”

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1313640512025513984

Justice is coming.
Enjoy the show ??
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October 7, 2020 1:53pm
- Critical Thinker
  
  “We now know that John Brennan and Hillary Clinton conjured up the phony Russian hoax with the Obama/Biden Administration to distract Americans from the Clinton email scandal.
  
  The witch hunt was worse than we ever thought!”
  https://twitter.com/Jim_Jordan/status/1313607236711780352
  
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  October 7, 2020 2:31pm
  - Inandout
    
    CT, the timing is immaculate and one hopes this prevents Biden taking over, or this disgraceful behaviour by BLM will become common.
    https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1313277557417148417
    I am sure the Mexican gangs will be tracking these females as we speak. The birthday party was for a 3 yr old FGS.
    
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    October 7, 2020 2:52pm
  - Batman
    
    CT, the President has tweeted 42 times in the past two hours. He’s got roid rage.
    
    As for the justice coming, yes I expect the truth and reconciliation commission will have a long list of exposures of those who have willingly amplified foreign disinformation and fake news.
    
    You’re gonna be waiting a long time for your fantasy story to come true, my friend.
    
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    October 7, 2020 3:38pm
    - Critical Thinker
      
      Declassified docs show CIA briefed Obama on Hillary’s plan to link Trump to Russia
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFVMttEyLZs
      
      4 3
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      October 7, 2020 4:00pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Batman you are embarrassing yourself. Trump is still in quarantine. He must be bored as fuck, other than tweeting. No parades, no boat parades (they are happening) Trump is in lockdown.
      Knock your socks off man, pick on those Americans forced into isolation.
      How about picking on those in NZ in isolation? NO?
      Wonder why? It is just a TDS thing right?
      
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      October 7, 2020 6:29pm
greenfinger

NZ crushed COVID19…. along with its economy! Well done, Cindy!
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October 7, 2020 2:21pm
Maggie Pie

We just watched the interview with Rafa Nadal after his latest victory at Roland Garros.
My partner made the observation that in the entire time we’ve followed him, his English is still shit.

Just saying.
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October 7, 2020 3:19pm
- Hard Cheese
  
  How’s your partner’s Spanish, fluent?
  
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  October 7, 2020 4:31pm
  - Mike
    
    He’s from Barcelona
    
    2 2
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    October 7, 2020 5:54pm
oldfella

(Accidentally posted this in the wrong thread. Should go in General Debate…)

China: doing to the Tibetans what they’re already doing to the Uighurs.
“More than 500,000 Tibetans have been transferred to Chinese training centers since the beginning of 2020, as an existing mass labor initiative expanded in the region. The figure accounts for roughly 15 percent of Tibet’s total population.”
https://www.newsweek.com/15-percent-tibets-population-transferred-chinese-training-centers-mass-labor-program-expands-1533579
Just remember — “Don’t trust China. China is asshole!”
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October 7, 2020 3:36pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Now I know Judith wants us all to support the tech sector…. but where do you draw the line?

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54436575
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October 7, 2020 3:54pm
Maggie Pie

Shaun Plunkett has just done more for the plight of Tourette’s sufferers than any other talkback host has ever dared.
Now sit back and wait for the complaints to the BSA.
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October 7, 2020 4:00pm
surfing

No motive for this murder?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12371077

I find this a strange story — usually they report motive – looking for drugs, mistaken identity, whatever. If it were due to mental health issues he’d have been found not guilty, right?

But, NZ Herald don’t report any motive. Guy just killed a stranger just because he could?
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October 7, 2020 4:17pm
- kowtow
  
  And another wtf?
  
  ‘Roderick James Finlayson was sentenced to six months community detention for supplyng the gun.
  
  NZ Herald’
  
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  October 7, 2020 7:04pm
Wired-one

Is it just me or is our collective media currently doing a hit job on Judith and National. Newshub, Stuff, even the Herald has multiple negative stories about the opposition running this afternoon. What the hell is going on here?
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October 7, 2020 4:17pm
- kingerstinger
  
  Yes, I was just logging in to see if anyone else had noticed – in particular Thomas Manch, who has had his red sleeves on show for most of the campaign (funny how there’s never a ‘Whole Truth’ article about Labour…), delightfully sticking the knife in over Collin’s “staged” photo ops. He (presumably through gritted teeth) acknowledges Ardern’s people dropping a street busker singing about poverty on her route through Lyttleton (!!) and then gets back to bagging Collins. Scumbag.
  
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  October 7, 2020 4:51pm
- bruceavon
  
  Yes. Two of the articles seemed very similar to me. A blanket media hit job. But I have to wonder who organised this mess and invited all the press along. Surely Judith can get a decent crowd in Ponsonby if it is organised properly. A bloody suburb where most houses are 2 million dollars. And not make it look like a clumsy set up. Come on.
  
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  October 7, 2020 4:57pm
- Prince
  
  Remember when Labour Party officials were caught repeatedly in 2017 posing on Facebook as beneficiaries, about how poor they were, National cancelled their kids’ Christmas etc.
  They were outed on Kiwiblog but the articles remained on Stuff.
  Now, apparently, National Party members aren’t allowed to attend Collins’ walkabouts for fear of being identified!
  The corruption in our media is unbelievable. I really hope National, when next in Govt, remove all funding, stop all Public Service ‘free’ subs, sell RNZ and TV1 and really clean up this dirty industry.
  
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  October 7, 2020 5:16pm
  - kingerstinger
    
    Look at the leader’s debates. TVNZ, state-owned and with all the money in the world, turn out a worse debate than a private company (Three) on the bones of its arse.
    
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    October 7, 2020 5:31pm
  - info@cruzpro.com
    
    National needs to remind the media that Labour will not govern forever and when National does get back into power they will remember how the MSM mistreated them.
    
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    October 7, 2020 6:41pm
- Happychappy
  
  Something must be happening in the poll because the new poll is out tomorrow night ahead of the minor parties debate and Jessica Mutch said the poll is still in progress, so I wonder if they are also doing a hit on Judith Collins before the next weeks debate against there darling not so truthful Jacinda Ardern.
  
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  October 7, 2020 6:43pm
- kowtow
  
  How about this for a headline from the ‘independent voice of the south”
  
  ‘Students show love for PM in Dunedin’
  
  https://www.odt.co.nz/news/decision-2020/students-show-love-pm-dunedin
  
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  October 7, 2020 7:07pm
greenfinger

What is the name of the Ponsonby specs shop which turned away Judith this arvo? That business is toast! It will from now on only get 40% the customers that it used to have! What a dumbass move!
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October 7, 2020 5:30pm
- sooty
  
  There is one in New Plymouth run by Andrew Judd as well!
  
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  October 7, 2020 9:21pm
gorse

Probably been asked before, but wasn’t there a TVNZ poll due out last night? I saw during yesterday comments about what it would say. Does anyone know anything?
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October 7, 2020 5:30pm
- nathie
  
  I believe TVNZ will run it tomorrow, if so how convenient for them, as they’ve now run three days worth of “attack National” stories to help “influence” the outcome!
  
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  October 7, 2020 8:23pm
  - sooty
    
    The 50 million vote fix is in!
    
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    October 7, 2020 9:20pm
ngatimozart

Jeez I went and did the vote thing today. My wife is in the Banks Peninsula electorate and I am in the Te Tai Tonga electorate. So I go into the booth to do my 2 ticks National and I bloody well can’t. National aren’t running candidates in the Māori electorates. To rub it in, no real right wing parties running either. Apart from the New Conservatives, the rest of the mongrels were left wing, and I’ll vote Labour before I would vote for the new Conservatives. No way I was going to vote Labour either. Jeez what was a man to do? So it was 1 tick National and I went with the Māori Party to try and knock Labour out. Had to hold my nose whilst doing it though because I don’t like the new direction of the Māori Party.
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October 7, 2020 5:53pm
greybeard

This may have been addressed already on GD but I haven’t been online much so apologise in advance:

“Advance” is actually the word I want to discuss. There have been several hundred thousand advance votes already, but tonight Paddy Gower is hosting a program on cannabis, which could affect the way people vote in that referendum.

Why the hell is this program being aired now, several days after advance voting has started ?

I have no problem with advance voting: for those people who are going to choose an electorate candidate and a preferred party, and who would never change whatever happens then good on them.
I am actually one of them.

But in addition to the normal election is this business of the two referenda, and there is a serious disconnection related to advance voting, postal voting, overseas voting and MSM programs addressing the referenda issues.

What is that smell ?
Oh yes, a RAT.
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October 7, 2020 6:02pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Does anyone get the ‘flu’ anymore?
I sneezed about 2 am this morning. This Covid is hiding in my house
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October 7, 2020 7:05pm
sooty

Hillary is going to be Arkansided, if she doesn’t watch out!
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October 7, 2020 9:26pm

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