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NOAM CHOMSKY: Israel-Palestine happens to be a particularly easy case. I mean, there has been an overwhelming international consensus for thirty-five years on how to settle the problem—short term, at least—namely, a two-state settlement on the international border, which everyone agrees on, with, the phrase was, “minor and mutual modifications.” That was US official policy until the US departed from the world in the early ’70s, as it did. That’s just overwhelming. I mean, there was a Security Council resolution in 1976 calling for a two-state settlement. The US vetoed it. And it just goes on from there. I won’t run through it, but if you get ’til today, there’s just overwhelming agreement. I mean, it includes all the Arab states for a long time. It includes Iran, the Organization of Islamic States. It includes Hamas. You know, in fact, everybody, except the United States and Israel.
Included in the previous post on Blog Bits was a link to this piece on “Act’s Problem”.
There are plenty of regular Actees here, so I’m surprised there was not any comment on it.
Has the criticism of Heather Roy been fair?
Would Act be better off de-Rogered?
Are they more or less likely to survive in parliament without him?
The Ploughshare guys are heroes who have not only represented a collective consensus on the verdit, but also proven the stand on principle. They are the only people with guts who stood up for what is right and just against a spy device which supports war and atrocities against humanity, especially the helpless women and children.
This spy device is funded in the millions by NZ tax to support war whether you and me or anyone else likes or not. It is against freewill, and conscience. If you understand that, it’s a massive violation of fundamental rights, and at the same time subjecting you the innocent NZer a warmonger against innocent persons.
But the fact that Christians are persecuted by Muslim’s in Arab worlds – the latest is the slaughter of Christian women and children Nigeria – , these Ploughshare Christians have risked their own lives to prevent the loss of Muslim lives which makes it a pure act above moral recognition.
This week is the seventh anniversary of the “Black Spring”, when Castro’s regime arrested 75 dissidents in the biggest crackdown on independent thought on the island for years. The show trials, involving brutalities and Stalinesque distortions of law, prompted only weak protests world-wide.
It is way past time for regime change in Cuba.
The Ploughshare guys are terrorists who should have been given their three warnings and shot down.
you would know anything about international secutiry if you grabbed by the balck helicopters and taken to gitmo. You personally don’t have the sligtest fucking idea what Waihopai is and what it does.
As always a leftie is squealing loudest about something they know nothing about. You people are fucking pathetic.
Pete George, if ACT people believed any of the bullshit they spout they would not be in a coalition with the Nats.
Hmm, Douglas ranting that he was entitled to lots of tax payer money to fly to Britain on holiday, hardly the mark of someone who believes the country needs to save money.
But, I just cannot see Hide surviving the next election, not if those TV clips are played often enough with him stating he was entitled to trough.
Tassman – how did these fruits ‘risk their lives’? Don’t be so melodramatic. THey might have had heart attacks from all the excitemnt of ‘saving Musllim lives’ while at the same time risking Western ones.
I could get to like this RIP thing, Thank you whomever recommended it.
As an aside, at present Lebanon (an alleged Iranian proxy) is on the UN Security Council for the next two years, but Israel a sovereign state also in the same geographic area as Lebanon (right next door), can never be on the security council because the Islamic nations around her refuse to allow her onto the same geographic group as them.
The other members of the UN won’t force them to be democratic about it or penalise them in some way for their actions.
[[ The Ploughshare guys are terrorists who should have been given their three warnings and shot down.
you would know anything about international secutiry if you grabbed by the balck helicopters and taken to gitmo. You personally don’t have the sligtest fucking idea what Waihopai is and what it does.
As always a leftie is squealing loudest about something they know nothing about. You people are fucking pathetic. ]]
Anyone who is loud is the likes of you and company. I’d hate to see the sight of the people you live with, and I bet ya you won’t even the one end of sub-auto from another. As I said before, if you were true, you’d be in Afghanistan right now, but that’s a joke isn’t. You’d be home the next bleeming blame suffering from the effects of your own shite…
What else are you gonna show us today…go on, make my day… punk!
The Ploughshare terrorists have acted against the political and security interests of every New Zealander and the fact that they have were aquitted says more about the quality of their legal team than it does about their cause.
Murray, you turning into a liberal ? I’m a lefty and if any bastards chucked bags of acid or sank ships not giving a fuck if there was crew aboard I would put 7.62 rounds into them.
Fuck Gitmo, it is too much of a holiday camp for those arseholes to be in.
Tassman, you are a very sexist person. You should apologise to Women now. Your support of the Poughshare terrorist/heros also infers your Support of the Teleban. In addition to the Teleban’s history of showing off the strong arm of Islam (public executions etc) they also banned education from girls and excluded women from government and positions of influence.
To use your level of hysteria, it is clear to me that you do not think women are deserving of an education and nor should they form a credible part of government. The Greens are hippocrates for having a female coleader. Helen Clark and Jenny Shipley were an aberation that you believe should never happen again.
I do not know about you, but from my opinion oppressors like the Teleban have no place in this world.
Grant
I know very little of the background to your first post, but concur with your end point.
It galls me that the UN and the democratic nations at the UN allow Cuba, Zimbabwe, Saudi Arabia, China, Russia, Sudan and others the right to speak, sit on the Human Rights Committee and hold other substantive committee posts instead of suspending their voting rights and making them have observer status until they actually meet the so called UN values.
Have any of you looked at the ploughshares website and followed any of the links.
They also support the indigenous people treaty at the UN.
One of the major thrusts of that is the elevation of indigenous people over the wicked colonisers!
“He had conned over [sic] the laws of cricket, which he considered good enough no doubt for pleasure-loving English people. But he proposed entirely altering them for the serious- minded Teuton.” Specifically, he “advocated the withdrawal of the use of pads. These artificial ‘bolsters’ he dismissed as unmanly and un-German . . . in the end he also recommended a bigger and harder ball.”
“..Not even the august New York Times has a staff large enough to verify all the facts in the letters published in the Letters to the Editor section; ..
.. so I decided to look up the specific passages in Payne’s biography of Hitler .. and Dione Lucas’s The Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook that cast doubt on Hitler’s vegetarianism.
Sure enough, Robert Payne, whose biography of Hitler, The Life and Death of Adolf Hitler, has been called definitive, scotches the rumor that Hitler might have been a vegetarian.
According to Payne, Hitler’s vegetarianism was a fiction made up by his propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels to give him the aura of a revolutionary ascetic ..
.. a Fascistic Gandhi, if you will.
It is worth quoting from Payne’s biography directly:
“Hitler’s asceticism played an important part in the image he projected over Germany.
According to the widely believed legend, he neither smoked nor drank, nor did he eat meat or have anything to do with women.
Only the first was true.
He drank beer and diluted wine frequently, had a special fondness for Bavarian sausages and kept a mistress, Eva Braun, who lived with him quietly in the Berghof.
There had been other discreet affairs with women.
His asceticism was fiction invented by Goebbels to emphasize his total dedication, his self-control, the distance that separated him from other men.
By this outward show of asceticism, he could claim that he was dedicated to the service of his people.”
Yeah Toad – the inmates in Gitmo dread going to one of those supermax prisons in the middle of some freeezing prairie in the mid-west. In Gitmo they have good weather, menu choices and spend all day banging their heads on the floor to Allah with their mates.
When the Taliban come marching in, Griz will still be sitting at his computer sharing opinions with his fellow travellers – all the way up to where he decides that these guys aren’t so different to the fellas down the pub, and that they might just have the answer to his troubled relationships with women.
The war on terror is simply a fraud.
The school-yard bully does not pick on the strong, but on the weak. By humiliating and making an example of the weak, the bully then imposes and exploits fear to take all they can from all the school students. Two bankrupt and enfeebled states (Afghanistan and Iraq) (along with undeclared war in Pakistan) have been the global bully’s most recent targets.
As a result of the bully’s foreign policy we have restarted the nuclear arms race, and expanded all conventional arms races.
If you’re interested in how to bring down dictaters without war, go to Serbia, South Africa, Philippines and Indonesia. beyond a certain low cunning, bullies don’t think.
Oooops, I think I see the Taliban on Lambton Quay now!
The Ploughshare guys are terrorists who should have been given their three warnings and shot down.
That’s rubbish. The first requirement of being a terrorist is that you must cause terror. Who out there is lying awake afraid of these guys? They didn’t harm anyone; they didn’t even threaten or try to harm anyone. “terrorism” isn’t a general term for “something I don’t like”.
I have read your comments over the last few days, and have a question for you which I hope you will answer in the spirit in which it is posed:
My question is:
Given that that Islam and its adherents, both radical and passive, are quite specific and open in their determination to establish a world-wide caliphate and destroy the Western World, it’s culture and civilization (and yes, that even includes Australia) to establish this, (The koran is very specific about this) and that a direct consequence of this will be the removal, by force if necessary, of your rights as an Australian citizen to have the freedom to protest against such things as Waihopai and the ‘carrying of arms by anyone’;
‘At what point will you be prepared to take up arms to defend both your homeland (Australia), your way of life (and, presumably, your family) and your (soon to be removed under Islam) democratic right to protest against whatever it is that you don’t like’?
And by extension the twin towers are still standing in New York.
There was no bombing of the London tube.
There were no Muslim youth riots in France.
There were no clashes with Muslim youth in Bondi.
And additionally, there is no friction in much of Europe between Muslim immigrants and those native to those lands.
It’s nice here in my parallel utopian universe … shame about you suckers that have to reside in the REAL world.
So Tassman and others…
The war in Afghanistan is being conducted via Waihopai?
WTF
That is deluded Luddite BS. The US military have their own comms systems including their own satellites, they have a big budget.
You sound like complete dicks when you get basic facts like that wrong.
Picking up on key words in conversations via electronic means is to stop murderous little shits blowing up planes with ordinary people on board. Like 911 or the plots in Britain.
So do you wish those human excrements had actually succeeded in blowing up dozens of planes over the Atlantic?
Not a very good opening session to the test Big Bruv….
I thought Arnel and Martin bowled outstandingly, but Southee let a bit of pressure off. We need to have a strong session after lunch to have any chance of restricting them to under 400
Having to listen on the radio for the first two sessions Nick so I cannot comment on the way we are bowling, I suspect we will struggle to bowl then out in any innings on this tour.
“And by extension the twin towers are still standing in New York.
There was no bombing of the London tube.
There were no Muslim youth riots in France.
There were no clashes with Muslim youth in Bondi.”
Ryan
I would say the spirit is “polite questioning” and I am too eager to hear Bryla’s answer.
I have known people from the justice orientated wing of christianity for years now, they are happy to attack the wicked colonising west and are similar to the liberation theology people. The ploughshares people also support self determination for indigenous peoples at the UN which attacks present nations sovereignties.
so I look forward to brylas reply.
Bryla’s 1058 says it all. We know it .They wont say it. They are vehemently anti American,and very likely are Marxists. They are not truely Christian as they love Marx and hate their non Marxist opponents.
He cites Pakistan, the pure country born out of religious hatred and civil war. They and the Hindoos have the dreaded bomb……..Americas fault perhaps ? Not Iran and N Korea, those loving peaceful kind dictatorships.
He cites Serbia, a Christian country that fellow Christian Clinton hammered
He cites the Philippines where another civil and religiouos war is on going
He cites South Africa where the white man HANDED OVER the reins of power(watch its steady decline through rape ,murder and xenophobia)
He cites Indonesia where Muslims kill and oppress Christians and Hindoos almsot daily and oppress the indiginous in Papua.
Oh and I hope the Waihopai vandals enjoy the uncertainty of the next wee while while the Crown considers an appeal. Ha ha ha and if they dont a civil suit to reclaim the damages would be nice.
As I am not given to phlippancy, the question was posed as a polite, non-combative, politically-neutral and emminently-serious enquiry – an attempt to learn Bryla’s opinion. and what his intended response to a given-situation would be.
(Of course whether others care to debate his reply is of course over to them.. I was merely asking to learn his viewpoint,)
I am however somewhat puzzled by Bryla’s noticable absence and his non-response – should I be concerned?
Your question began with a paragraph-long premise which may be obviously and uncontentiously true to you, but if Bryla doesn’t accept it – and I suspect he doesn’t – then he can’t really answer in any meaningful way.
It would be like someone saying to a Christian, “Given that Christianity is a combination of Middle Eastern ancient history and sexist masochistic Platonism and is responsible for justifying tyrannical state oppression throughout much of the last 2000 years as well as holding back the scientific advancement of the Western world for centuries, how can you call yourself a progressive Christian?”
If you are genuinely interested in understanding where Bryla is coming from, I’d recommend asking him if he agrees with your evaluation of Islam and its billion adherents worldwide and – if he disagrees – why.
Sadly yes – and I’m not even an Anglican, or a Roman Catholic or . . .(you know, the ones who have ‘the one true faith’) just a Charismatic, Pentecostal Christian. Isn’t it great?
(Oh, and I’m also a Christian Zionist – even better )
Thanks again. I actually believe that I have asked that question (albiet indirectly), so I’ll leave it as it stands.
The silence that is Bryla’s response is however, becoming somewhat deafening, so I suppose that conclusions may have to start being drawn, which is a pity really, because the question was very neutral, and delibrately a-political.
“And by extension the twin towers are still standing in New York.
There was no bombing of the London tube.
There were no Muslim youth riots in France.
There were no clashes with Muslim youth in Bondi.”
vmcrns – hard to know who in Act is getting what stories out, and why. But the reality is that Hide and Roy need to look like they can work together and build support. They need each other. I think Hide can recover ok from last year, he genuinely looked like he learnt a major lesson from it (everyone makes mistakes, it takes more to show you have learnt and can improve from it) but won’t be able to hide from the Super City, however that is looking in eighteen months.
Pete George (4281) Says:
March 19th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
Komata, Bryla may not be online – it’s possible he’s flying back to Aus (if he hadn’t already) or could be all sorts of reasons.
Could be all sorts of reasons, such as he’s online on other left/right wing bloggs or Scoop discussing his viewpoint, or savouring his tofu sandwich or maybe like alot of leftwing activists (well the ones that I used to know) that are too PC and sexually repressed, are actually doing his damnest to get into the pants of some kiwi activist girl (and “use” each other and then next day feel ashamed and call it quits. One good way to get around so to speak. We’ll have to ask him what the score is)
I do hope we hear more for him, it is fascinating trying to understand his way of thinking (ditto he’ll be just as amused about us and we’ll no doubt provide him with some good fodder for his writings on the kooks that inhabit Kiwiblog etc).
I do hope he provides us with a URL to his activist blog, so we and others can continue the debate there.
Notice how Peace Group blogs/websites mostly don’t allow public comments? (Unlike say defence and security orientated websites where on can comment)? Hmm I wonder why that is? Why don’t so called peace activists want greater public discussion? Too afraid of the truth affecting their collective groupthink resolve perhaps?
Have they just recently over-dosed the Auckland water supply with fluoride, Ryan?
Or did you just get out of the wrong side of the bed thismorning?
You seem to be decidely disagreeable today – I’ll pray that the day may get better for you – it is TGIF, afterall.
Islamist denial? Straight out of the hard left playbook. Reminds me of the FDR and Truman staffers who insisted that the Soviet Union wasn’t a threat to the West even while the reds were blatantly starting their consolidation of power in Eastern Europe.
So here we are in countdown to Hezbollah (Iran) and Gaza vs Israel no 2.
OB1 has soured the water so that he can punish Israel when she needs resupply and to put her off taking out Iran’s rockets.
Meanwhile that bastion of democracy the UN has stood by an aided and abetted Iran and Syria in rearming Hezbollah for round 2 later this year.
One things for sure Israel won’t wait for another 10,000 rockets tof all this time, but have they woken up to the threat OB1 actually is?
Oh no jag, quick get outta that shithole Deadwood city, remember Pearl Harbour
You don’t mean to say that the Japs are going to pull a ‘Waihopai’ and try to destroy the Steve Irwin because they sincerely believe it puts Japanese lives at risk?
Bugger! – your satellite dish has obviously intercepted this important information – thanks for the heads up; us Wellingtonians thank you.
Komata, sorry this took so long, but I’ve spent today meeting with Wellington peace activists, and right now I’m sitting at a nice cafe bar in Te Papa museum playing tourist.
I will never take up arms.
There is a body of knowledge about both nonviolence as a defence, and the pragmatic techniques of social defence which go to preventing invasion by suborning foreign troops, by sabotage of supply lines and materiel, and by cohesive nonviolent resistance. Think the Gandhian resistance in India. Remember Parihaka (which “failed” at the time but is now a world famous stand-out example of nonviolence).
If “evil” forces come to kill or hurt me family, my friends, or my community, they will only be able to do so over my dead body.
Soldiers risk everything in war. Surely peace activists must be willing to do the same to end war.
Finally I cannot leave without observing that the “threat” of Islam is terribly exaggerated. Sure Islamic terrorists exist, as do Christian terrorists and secular terrorists (think Timothy McVeigh, or George W’s brief call to a Crusade, before he hid it once again behind the war on/of terror).
Islam was part of the (small amount) comparative religion studies I did at university, and the terrorists you cite are a tiny fundamentalist percentage of the Islamic world. Otherwise the religion is beautiful, and one of the Abrahamic religions which recognises Jesus as a prophet. Judaism and Christianity are the other Abrahamic religions.
I suggest that the way to limit and then disarm Islamic terrorism is to enlist the aid of their nonviolent Islamic brothers and sisters. Of course we would need to treat those brothers and sisters fairly and justly to enlist their aid.
You sure didn’t waste your time and money there, did you?
Were you enough of a dolt to only be able to do a theology degree to start with, or did the deluded “higher power” muck rot your brain while you were studying it?
before he hid it once again behind the war on/of terror).
Sure Islamic terrorists exist, as do Christian terrorists and secular terrorists
An oxymoron, Islamism denial AND moral equivilency. Their score sheet doesn’t make them the same.
I suggest that the way to limit and then disarm Islamic terrorism is to enlist the aid of their nonviolent Islamic brothers and sisters. Of course we would need to treat those brothers and sisters fairly and justly to enlist their aid.
I don’t think their are too many Muslims with ‘Neville’ as a first name, sadly.
The world’s had enough of ‘Nevilles’, we need more ‘Winstones’ to deal with the Islamic threat.
Mohammed (‘peace’ be upon him) would have had ‘Neville’ for an entre.
You need to read more of the Koran and Hadith to truly understand Islamic global aims.
Thank you for your reply – it makes interesting, albeit somewhat sad reading, but thank you for clarifying your stand for both me and the rest of the forum.
Another question inevitably follows from what you have written: Imagine the following:
You have become involved in a street battle with Muslim-sympathisers, (not as a protagonist, but as an unwitting civilian – it does happen) and a soldier (say a member of the Royal Australian Army ) is beside you, fighting to defend your country (Australia) and, by extension, your right to protest.
The soldier is suddenly seriously injured and the individual who shot him appears before you determined to finish your (Australian) soldier off.
What are YOU, Bryla, going to do, especially as it is very obvious that once the soldier is dead, you will probably be next – particularly because you are variously a European, a Westerner and an Infidel.
I would be very interested in your answer, because this situation is unfortunately not hypothetical (although the substitution of Australia for other nations is – at the moment).
And, as I said before, this is not a flippant question, and I cannot of course be responsible for the reactions of others to what you write.
We are going to get rich in tax breaks it seems. That is if $20 a week makes anyone rich.
Most will benefit from new tax plans
Friday, 19, Mar, 2010 1:50PM
Research suggests most New Zealanders will be better off under a new tax structure to be unveiled at the next budget.
The Government plans to cut personal income tax but increase GST.
The New Zealand Institute of Economic Research says it has carried out preliminary estimates which show the median household earning $65,000 a year, will be better off by around $12 per week.
It reports households within the top 50 percent income bracket will continue to pay around 80 percent of all income tax, while the bottom 30 percent will continue to pay around eight percent of the total.
I suggest that the way to limit and then disarm Islamic terrorism is to enlist the aid of their nonviolent Islamic brothers and sisters. Of course we would need to treat those brothers and sisters fairly and justly to enlist their aid.
Well if you are sincere with this suggestion (and for example “you” also don’t use it as a means to slag off the meddling west and/or USA when you or your colleagues are over there) then I sincerely would have respect for your aims. For it would be no easy task and it will take a lot of time (a long time, but one needs to start somewhere) and courage, for every good intention there will be others that live over there doing their utmost to stop “you”.
So I’d rather see you guys stop with the easy targets (western bases and infrastructure etc) and do some “good”, in places were a good dose of “good” is needed. (Just please be respectful to the western forces if they need to bail you out a la Harmeet Sooden, and his apparent scowling of them for being rescued).
If “evil” forces come to kill or hurt me family, my friends, or my community, they will only be able to do so over my dead body.
Again I respect your sincere beliefs. Where we part it seems, is as for me, if “evil” came to kill or hurt my family, I suspect these “evil” fanatics would take great pleaseure in finding out if I were for example a Pacifist like you (which I’m not) in taunting me by raping, dismembering my partner and child in front of me first, before they make me a dead body. So this is our difference, I would not stand for that, I would rather kill (if I could, not that I have killed anything before) these “evil” fanatics before they dared layed a hand on my family.
Happy to keep up the dialogue – just tell us where you reside in the blog world when you get back to Oz.
A household with an income of $65,000 a year is likely to be better off by around $12 a week under tax changes in the upcoming budget, according to the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research (NZIER).
The calculation takes into account the impact of a likely reduction in personal income tax and increase in goods and services tax (GST) but does not include potential changes to Working for Families or potential changes to investment property.
Revenue Minister Peter Dunne has added further weight to widespread expectations the tax system on property investment is to be changed, and personal taxes are to be lowered.
Speaking to the International Fiscal Association conference in Christchurch today, Mr Dunne said changes to the tax treatment of property were likely, to make the rules fairer and more equitable for all taxpayers.
And just to make the lot of them look foolish as they are here is the result of a study into the TWG basic information that they and dopey Dunne assume is gospel. Its basically flawed and fictitious. A bit like Global Warming. http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/index.php/2010/03/18/auckland-uni-think-tank-challenges-tax-working-groups-nz200-bln-figure-for-rental-properties/
So we have a Govt. that continues with lies and poor quality information and is hell bent on sending NZ’s SME’ s into depression and bankruptcy.
Most are funded by housing values and if these idiots in Govt. continue to undermine the value of those houses that are used to fund business in NZ (and for most there is no other way) then depression is where we are heading. Rapidly I would add.
One is that we have to make an effort to stay realistic in our imaginings about what could happen. For example Komata postulates that somehow I am in a Moslem street demonstration, and that their are armed jihadis and Australian soldiers there. I’ve got to ask how did that happen? I don’t visit or live in war zones. What is an Australian soldier doing policing Moslems?
Likewise niggly posits an extreme evil force that takes gratuitous pleasure from inflicting atrocity. My understanding of atrocity is that it comes out of extreme situations where armed men and women have already been brutalised beyond bearing, and all civilised constraints have broken down. How did that happen?
Many years ago I was taught that the job of civilised men and women is to make sure that situations like Komata and niggly describe don’t happen. That by doing our civic duty, and that by working for justice, we ensure situations like that don’t develop.
I believe that all human beings are innately good, and that in situations where the opportunity exists to meet basic needs, to enjoy respect, and to develop potential that people will not destroy and take life gratuitously. 9/11 and the Iraq war did not arise out of those kinds of circumstances – and my utter condemnation of the invasion of Iraq is that it ensured a continuing level of violence and brutality in that country for some decades.
If people want me to show I’m not mindlessly anti-US, then I similarly condemn the Russian actions in Afghanistan and Chechnia, the Chinese actions in Tibet, India and Pakistan equally for Kashmir, etc. etc.
As an Australian, my responsibility lies in ensuring my government, and my people, are acting with integrity, accountability, and compassion for justice. I don’t go to other people’s country and tell them what to do (although I’ll participate in debate when invited).
The blog I use as an organising instrument is http://www.cairnspeacebypeace.org. I don’t allow fractious comment there. That’s not its purpose.
I’m going to Otaki this weekend. Back in Wellington Monday, and flying home Tues/Wed. Until then I’ll participate on this blog.
I really appreciate those of you interested in dialogue, and exchange. I think you should be proud of your culture, and your justice system, and I think you have a lot to offer the world.
(and I will go to confession and seek absolution when I get home for giving into the temptation of provoking those among you who display a reckless approach to truth, knowledge and humanity. U know who U R.)
Oh yeah, in answer to the moral question “What would I do?” I would put myself between the attacker and the intended target, and I would ask if there’s anything I could do to help.
My understanding of atrocity is that it comes out of extreme situations where armed men and women have already been brutalised beyond bearing, and all civilised constraints have broken down. How did that happen?
Agree (more or less) eg fanatics aren’t usually born that way. Being brutalised and when civilised constraints break down, means people start behaving badly as a result. But mind you not all people.
Now to take a different perspective on your statement, I wonder whether you can see my viewpoint in that:
The Iraq war is over. The rebuilding has begun. The Iraqi’s are pretty much back in control. To ensure peace and stability, to ensure infrastructure is rebuilt, to ensure people there can have jobs (without fear of getting shot) …. means we need to support the Western (and Iraqi) forces (now under UN Mandate) to enforce the peace. For if there is no stability, there would be no peace.
Do you agree with me? Logically you should, but I suspect you won’t be able to because of your “position”. You see that’s where (IMO) the likes of Keith Locke, Nicky Hager et al, are wrong (if not fools of the highest degree) because calling for a withdraw of Western forces (from Iraq or Afghanistan) or the dismantling of the western security apparatus will not result in continued stability, hence peace. We all want peace, right?
I believe that all human beings are innately good, and that in situations where the opportunity exists to meet basic needs, to enjoy respect, and to develop potential that people will not destroy and take life gratuitously.
Similarly to take a slightly different perspective on your statement, I also believe the US Armed Forces (nor the Oz and NZ defence forces etc) don’t wish to destroy and take life gratuitously. When innocents are mistaken killed by drones in the Middle East, usually it is a result of intelligence failures (or misinformation on part of the locals in having other agendas). Thus my viewpoint is, intelligence gathering is vital. So ensuring the trust and support of the local population. This is one positive aspect of Special Forces (US, NZSAS, whatever), they have to work with the people on the street to ensure their trust, hence I’m all for the NZSAS in Kabul, good on them.
US Foreign Policy may not be perfect by any means. But it is always better to be working with them to make them get it or see other perspectives, rather than against them (where they thus don’t have to listen).
Thank you for your reply. As with your previous reply to my enquiry, it was enlightening and revealing. My hypothetical situation was based on the concept that Australia was under attack from Islamic forces – a not-impossible situation since Indonesia is only a few miles away from the Northern Territory and there is a growing Muslim presence in the cities as shown by the ‘Lab’ incidents a few months ago at Bondi. (The koran actually DOES advocate the creation of a’Fifth column’ amongst the dwelling places of the infidels, but no doubt you know that already)
I have to admire your principles and congratulate you on standing by them, (to the exclusion of your family, homeland and civilisation), but, having said that, I also have to say that you and I are diametrically-opposed in our viewpoints in respect of responses to threats posed by both military and militant religious groups. I would/will fight any attempt to destroy my country, my civilization, my freedom, and, most importantly my family, a view which is, I suspect shared by many of the readers of this forum. That you will make a deliberate choice not lift a finger to either protect yourself or your family and country surprises me, but that is something over which we will, of course, have to disagree.
I do find your response: ‘I would put myself between the attacker and the intended target, and I would ask if there’s anything I could do to help’ somewhat naive, since, as I indicated before, Islam isn’t interested in you or your beliefs and would find your request hilarious and an indication of western niavety – confirming their perceptions (as stated in the koran) that the ‘West’ is degenerate and in need of ‘liberation’ into Islam. Your comments do however seem to indicate that they would find you a very willing slave – at least until you were no longer of use, at which point it would be ‘curtains for the bunny. . ‘
I believe that you wildly underestimate the looming threat from Islam, (even in Australia) but as you don’t see that the threat is from Islam per se’ I cannot expect that you will understand that. Understanding that there is actually a threat ultimately comes down to individual perceptions and experiences I suppose, although a point to remember is that as far as Islam is concerned, everywhere a Muslim foot walks automatically becomes Islamic property and is to be defended to the death and reclaimed by force (aka violence) when the day of reckoning and uprising occurs. I just hope that you are as ready to actually die for your pacifistic beliefs as your comments so far sem to indicate. It may actually become necessary.
Again, thank you for your replies – much appreciated.
Hey groovers, thanx for the discussion, and I agree to disagree in the way we think, and the conclusions we draw.
I suspect you’ve already guessed that I’m not naive, and I respect your intelligence and integrity.
It’s difficult sometimes to know with any certainty what’s going on, particularly where “intelligence and security” issues guarantee government silence (if not outright deception).
I’ve been a peace activist for more than 30 years. In that journey I spent 9 years at university studying strategic issues and international relations in east Asia. I did comparative religion to better understand some of the cultural constraints in Indonesia (Islam), China (Confucian before communism), Thailand (Buddhism), and Japan (variants of Shinto and Buddhism).
Australia is not going to be invaded by Indonesia – pragmatically because it doesn’t have enough armed force for external adventurism AND maintain its own internal control of the non-Javanese populations at the same time. Invade Australia, lose the homeland and then fail in the invasion.
As for re-building Iraq, I’m all for it, but it can only happen through the exercise of Iraqi sovereignty, NOT externally imposed “security”.
How happy are you that the geo-political results of the invasion is an enriching and strengthening of Iran? Or the clear exposition of the limits to US military power. Talk about the law of unintended consequences. Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush (the 3 stooges).
MikeNZ, you need to understand that your position on Israel/Palestine (basically that the white guys are the good guys and the wogs can fuck off) is in a tiny minority in the wider world, as Noam Chomsky pointed out in the opening post.
The vast majority of populations support overwhelmingly the two state solution, but I suspect the ex-colonised (which is the vast majority) would really want to see the restoration of Palestinians to the rightful ownership of their land, in whatever form it takes – that’s their business.
Most of your posts show a profound ignorance of Arab/Muslim/Jewish relations over the last two thousand years, to put it politely. Here is a snippet of that history that may make you sit up. David Ben Gurion (I presume you have heard of him), in the lead up to WWI, argued that the Zionists in Israel should side with the Ottomans, not the British. He lost that argument.
The only reason Israel still exists in its current form is the power of the Israel Lobby in the US. One day, for reasons at present completely unknown, that power will wane. And the non-violent end of the conflict will surprise you.
You are joking, surely. Without the back up from the US, Iraqi forces are a nonentity.
2.
I also believe the US Armed Forces (nor the Oz and NZ defence forces etc) don’t wish to destroy and take life gratuitously.
Nah, sorry. Tell that to the million or so dead Iraqis. Or the dead civilians anywhere armed forces go. They are trained to kill – and when you want an army on your side (unlike Bryla, I do) that’s the way it has to be. But let’s not ignore facts.
3.
everywhere a Muslim foot walks automatically becomes Islamic property and is to be defended to the death and reclaimed by force
Crap. To become a Muslim, one does not need to believe anything like what the Christian religion demands, let alone what you say above. There are just five requirements, and faith is not a requirement. Most Muslims today, just like most Christians and most Buddhists and whatever are simply so because their parents were. End of story. Your Fox inspired nonsense could just as well be directed at the increasing hordes of murderous, fundamentalist Christians burgeoning in the US today. The ones who have killed a million Iraqis and tens of thousands of Afghans, and and ripped asunder two countries.
The ones who have killed a million Iraqis and tens of thousands of Afghans, and and ripped asunder two countries.
Afghanistan has been in a perpetual state of asunderment.
Saddam Hussein had been doing a fair bit of asundering in Iraq – I didn’t agree with the invasion, but it’s done now. Iraq have to be given back control over their country, there will be inevitable ongoing asundering but they have to try and deal with that.
Most of the US MSM ended up supporting the Iraq invasion. Some became critical of the mess that followed, it’s widely acknowledge that the post-invasion period was a major cock-up.
“Afghanistan has been invaded many times, its boundaries and governments almost always in dispute. Invaders include the Mughal rulers of South Asia, Russian Tsars, Soviet Union, British Empire, and currently a coalition force of NATO troops with UN-backing led by US armed forces.” Wiki.
Nowhere do I see any reports that Afghans actually requested these invasions. I remember the US solemnly promising to bomb the country back to the stone age when the Soviets had already beaten them to it. But wtf was that about. Most Afghans had no idea Al Qaeda even existed.
Saddam cannot and does not deserve to be defended, but the conditions which led to his rise were again created by western colonial powers. Today is the 7th anniversary of the latest invasion of Iraq, which has resulted in a disputed death toll but an undisputed fleeing of the country by over 4m Iraqis and another 1.3m IDPs.
I’m listening as I type this to a report on the rise of Sharia (Law) in Iraq. Progress, I guess.
Niggly
Bryla isn’t a pacifist, he is anti european/coloniser iof he was a true pacifist he would do the same anywhere in the world against the truly bad people we have.
He won’t as he only acts in a safe place like the West.
I will start to give them credit when i see them sealing Saudi Arabian, Chinese, Zimabwean, Cuban and other consulates and making public protests.
They won’t because that’s not who they are. (useful idiots).
Komata
if you look closely at the ploughshares group you will see a solidarity to the so called Palestinians and other indigenous peoples against the usurper/colonisers so its not that Bryla underestimates Islam it is he and his fellow travelers choose to ignore their threat and in effect they side with them. (maybe their hatred of the western consumer gods is so all encompassing).
Tom
I don’t get him now, his loathing is an open sore in his writing.
Simon
The left are so arrogant they can’t conceive of anyone who doesn’t agree with them having the same or better brains than them, so they resort to attack attack attack. They hope by making it personal, they can invalidate anything others say. It only works with morons who have no brains and doesn’t change the content.
Never give in to them.
Why any of you bother engaging with Bryla is what I don’t understand. In his own land he is regarded as a hemorrhoid on the arse of society and like his brother in arms Russel Norman he has come to NZ because they see us as an easy mark. Going by the verdict of the twelve good jurors they are of course correct.
Unlike a real hemorrhoid it would be best to ignore him and he will wither from lack of attention which is the one thing that all pathetic little turds like him seek.
Righty ho, I now have a clearer understanding of your position (but do correct me if I’m wrong), which is the reason for you supporting the Ploughshares attack on Waihopai (and it seems this is the same position of the 3 men) is that if it could be taken out of action, you will be saving lives, including the lives of for example jihadist’s & AQ etc, because your reasoning is all life, including the lives of people with (so called) “bad” intent (ie from our mainstream western perspective) are just as important as anyone else’s ie ALL lives are important, no matter whether one is “good” or “bad” so to speak?
Is this so? Or if not (or not quite) could you elaborate a bit further please?
For the purposes of my writing I will assume for now that this is the case. Of course you are entitled to your belief (and as per your last comment last night clearly we both agree to disagree with each other at times and that is perfectly fine).
But one thing I am not certain about is whether you are a purist in that to achieve your aims and ends then people will suffer in the meantime which an acceptable price to pay for achieving the perfect solution … or whether you (like me) accept the ideal is minimising suffering?
What I mean is, it appears that the position of, say the Greens and some peace groups (and it seems the Robert Fisk’s and Noam Chomsky’s etc), is that the ideal is a withdraw of western forces from say, Iraq and leave the people there to sort it out themselves. The reality is that civilians will still die in the process, but that’s acceptable, because at least there is no western involvement or complicity etc.
Whereas I would say my ideal is to minimise (ideally stop) civilian deaths and if that means western forces remain there working alongside Iraqi forces then so be it at the invitation of the Iraqi Govt (and UN mandated) then so be it. Mind you it could be that you prefer this ideal as well, but the difference could be in ensuring that deaths of “insurgents” are minimised if not stopped ie not allowed to happen?
Australia is not going to be invaded by Indonesia – pragmatically because it doesn’t have enough armed force for external adventurism AND maintain its own internal control of the non-Javanese populations at the same time. Invade Australia, lose the homeland and then fail in the invasion.
Ok back onto the topic again and the Waihopai connection. But firstly, in your role as peace activist, you will be familiar with the tragedy that was East Timor (being invaded in 1975 whilst the west stood back). That history is well understood so let’s move forward to recent times. As you will know in 1999 the conditions fell into place for the “west” to assist the East Timorese with their independance, and Australia took the lead in establishing a UN mandated task force to ensure stability and drive out the remaining Indonesian backed militia etc.
I think I can assume that you are fully supportive of Timor Leste’s independance, right?
If so I think I can assume then that you, whilst perhaps preferring the ideal of the Timorese to have no outside western assistance, can accept that having for example NZ and OZ forces over there (and certainly not killing anyone) to ensure Timor Leste can establish good governance is actually a good thing, right?
If so, then you and the Ploughshare 3 then, need to realise that places like Waihopai are PIVOTAL in ensuring the security of places like Timor Leste by way of NZ (and thus OZ and sure the US too) are aware of what the Indonesians are planning. (Forget a Waihopia and Iraq connection, we’re talking about line of sight satellite tracking system, as I said before, grab a globe of the earth and a flat ruler, Waihopai cannot possibly “see” anything parked up Iraq ….. but apparently it can see those satellites/communications nearer the equator i.e. TIMOR LESTE.
And let’s not forget that whilst Indonesia currently is not seen as a threat to Australia as such, you will no doubt be also aware that in the other tragic case of West Papua, that despite Indonesia being a democracy now (fantastic), the Govt has not been able to (and no doubt won’t be able to) control those “rogue” elements of the Indonesian armed forces, the TNI, that control (at the point of a gun and via their proxy’s) very, very, very lucrative mining and timber felling industries there, that bare providing these rouge TNI elements many millions of dollars. It is critical that Waihopai (and other such western/NZ military and intelligence assets) be able to monitor these rogue TNI elements, which after all are killing and clearing out the native populations in certain areas.
Therefore can you now see what alot of Kiwiblog contributors have been saying, which is you and the Ploughshare 3 (and Keith Locke) are, when attacking Waihopai (as a means to get back at Uncle Sam for its Iraq invasion) are actually putting lives at risk, not only ANZAC/US/whatever forces in this region, but ultimately you are (inadvertantly) contributing to Indonesia complicity in West Papua (and who knows, thanks to Timor Leste’s new found gas an oil reserves) perhaps the very people of Timor Lester themselves.
If you accept my arguement, well, the right thing to do is admit the Ploughshare 3 got it wrong, and make amends. I don’t mean serve jail, the 3 were good intentioned in that the jury accepted it and the trial is over, but in my eyes a simple apology would be sufficent.
I’m sitting in Wellington Railway station now, waiting for a bus to Otaki. Outside is a statue of Gandhi, who was influenced by events and Parihaka in his development of modern nonviolence.
I understand that you believe in armed force as a deterrent, and a corrective, but Gandhi would ask what kind of society are you really building that way, and are there better alternatives. gandhi had both a mystical and a pragmatic view of suffering. He often took on the suffering of others through fasting, in order to make visible the suffering of others – to whom the powers were paying no attention.
Psychologically, all people (apart from psychopaths) notice and are deeply affected by the suffering of others. When someone voluntarily takes on suffering, they begin to question and pay attention in a way that opens at least the possibility of change and further action. Nonviolence activists of any faith (even seculars) use these dynamics to advantage.
I understand the role of Waihopai in intelligence gathering, just as I understand the space-based nature of modern war-fighting (in which the US leads the world). Command, control, communications, and intelligence are greatly enhanced by space resources, and are called “force multipliers” with good reason.
Now, before I descend into the mechanics of “war-fighting” or “peace-keeping”, I’m going to ask whether or not you have confidence in the accountability of your government, its integrity, and its actual knowledge of how the US uses the Waihopai resource? Globally, Echelon has been exposed for its use in Commercial espionage (e.g. assisting Boeing over Airbus to win supply contracts), and diplomatic espionage (spying on UN Security Council members to influence their vote in 2003).
Are you sure that NZers would sign up for this kind of activity, and for it to be done at unilateral US discretion? Echelon is interrogated independently by each UK/USA signatory.
Then we might look at the alternatives. Milosevich in Serbia was removed from power and handed over to the ICC for trial through civil organisation. One youth group, Otpur, was funded by the US State Department to the tune of $24million, as part of that organisation, and it was all done in ways which strengthened democracy in that country. Iraq has cost some $3trillion, and has produced dire consequences.
Timor was a diplomatic failure by Australia long before it became a military atrocity. Whitlam, no doubt advised by “realists” in Foreign Affairs, consented to the military invasion. After war has started, nonviolent resolution and civil authority becomes orders of magnitude more difficult.
As for West Papua, colleagues of mine were involved in the negotiations that resulted in the OPM laying down its arms and becoming explicitly nonviolent (just as the ANC did in South Africa). That struggle has a fair way to travel, but is making progress.
It is for each person to make their own decisions about how they deal with these matters. I’ve chosen mine, but it doesn’t make me right – it just gives me a direction and a plan.
The Waihopai 3 were very humble in court, and frequently apologised for any inconvenience they caused. I doubt they’ll apologise for their intentions or their analysis, because they see themselves as making a contribution to restraining unaccountable, counter-productive state violence. Like me, they are anti-militarist and Christian, so I understand very clearly where they’re coming from.
Psychologically, all people (apart from psychopaths) notice and are deeply affected by the suffering of others.
And when a psychopath – leading a group of like-minded psychopaths as an armed vanguard – successfully take over a society, pacifists become worse than useless, even Ghandi:
[the Jews] have in the Indian Satyagraha campaign in South Africa an exact parallel. There the Indians occupied precisely the same place that the Jews occupy in Germany. The persecutions had also a religious tinge. President Kruger used to say that the white Christians were the chosen of God and Indians were inferior beings created to serve the whites. A fundamental clause in the Transvaal constitution was that there should be no equality between the whites and colored races including Asiatics. There too the Indians were consigned to ghettos described as locations. The other disabilities were almost of the same type as those of the Jews in Germany. The Indians, a mere handful, resorted to Satyagraha without any backing from the world outside or the Indian Government. Indeed the British officials tried to dissuade the satyagrahis from their contemplated step. World opinion and the Indian Government came to their aid after eight years of fighting. And that too was by way of diplomatic pressure, not of a threat of war.
But the Jews of Germany can offer Satyagraha under infinitely better auspices than the Indians of South Africa. The Jews are a compact, homogeneous community in Germany. They are far more gifted than the Indians of South Africa. And they have organized world opinion behind them. I am convinced that, if someone with courage and vision can arise among them to lead them in non-violent action, the winter of their despair can in the twinkling of an eye be turned into the summer of hope. And what has today become a degrading man-hunt can be turned into a calm and determined stand offered by unarmed men and women possessing the strength of suffering given to them by Jehovah. It win be then a truly religious resistance offered against the godless fury of a dehumanized man. The German Jews will score a lasting victory over the German gentiles in the sense that they will have converted the latter to an appreciation of human dignity
The calculated violence of Hitler may even result in a general massacre of the Jews by way of his first answer to the declaration of such hostilities. But if the Jewish mind could be prepared for voluntary suffering, even the massacre I have imaged could be turned into a day of thanksgiving and joy that Jehovah had wrought deliverance of the race even at the hands of the tyrant. For to the God-fearing, death has no terror. It is a joyful sleep to be followed by a waking that would be all the more refreshing for the long sleep.
It’s not just a problem with psychopaths leading like minded people – experiments suggest that the majority of ordinary people will carry out extraordinary cruelty under instruction.
Call him what you like but he always had a good answer for the liberal elite/wankers/peace activists/lefties/tossers/PC/tree-hugger/socialist toss-pots.
His single-minded hatred of all the above is sorely missed.
Indeed. And even aside from that is the conundrum in warfare that Most Afghans had no idea Al Qaeda even existed, in the same way that most Russians initially knew little of Lenin, most Chinese knew little of Mao, and only some 34% of Germans ever voted for the Nazis.
Hide protests over burden on Telecom
By MARTIN KAY – The Dominion Post
Last updated 05:00 20/03/2010
ACT leader Rodney Hide has attacked Government plans to make Telecom pay the lion’s share of a splurge on rural broadband – but says he does not intend resigning over the issue.
Mr Hide, who is also Regulatory Reform Minister, branded the plans a breach of National’s own regulations policy and a “sad indictment” on the Government.
He released a strongly-worded letter to Telecommunications Minister Steven Joyce that signals one of the biggest fallouts between ACT and National since the parties agreed to govern together.
“I’m very displeased and the reason I’m displeased is not only is it poor law-making, it also sends a signal to any investors into New Zealand that their investment isn’t safe, and therefore it makes it tougher to get the sort of infrastructure and the sort of investment we need to grow the economy,” he said.
He rejected suggestions his reaction would harm ACT’s relationship with National, saying both accepted there would be differences at times.
Mr Joyce said ACT’s opposition would not stop legislation, as the Maori Party, with many rural constituents, was in favour.
This week, Mr Joyce confirmed plans to force Telecom to bear most of the cost through changes to the Telecommunications Service Obligations, which effectively regulate the company.
Telecom will pay most of the $300 million to be raised through a new levy to increase broadband cover and speed, and from July will also pay the full cost of providing phone services, at a loss, to 58,000 rural customers.
Telecom warned the moves would wipe $168 million of its pre-tax profits over three years. Its share price fell 4 cents to a record low of $2.17 when the plans were announced on Tuesday.
Another National Fail as well. Telecom should shut down their system overnight and sell the parts for what they can get. This Govt. is no better than the last when it comes to stealing shareholders rights.
What the fuck goes on in their minds. Ahhh socialism of course.
I miss Bedrater too, but I can imagine his response:
The dirty commie motherf….ing sh..bag jurors are narcisistic retards causing all decent reasonable people to live in fear of the disgusting Islamic c…s and coc…..ers that want to rape our little children and stone our women before dismembering us at gitmo, sorry, abu graihb, sorry some hellhole in Iran. Get a brain ar…..es, and learn to be a little bit polite and respectful like I am.
Genuine question:
As you say you are a Christian, and that you believe civil disobedience is acceptable in some cases where lives are placed at risk, do you also support the destruction of, say, abortion clinics because they destroy the lives of children in the womb?
Kris K, it’s not my particular issue but sure, I’d encourage anyone to act on their conscience and accept the consequences. I’d be happy if they were nonviolent and had a plan. but even if they aren’t and don’t it’s an improvement on apathetic folk who never go past having an opinion.
Johnboy, you really are just too, too kind. I don’t deserve all this attention from you and your elk.
Angus, you’re about the 903rd right whinger to link to this and attempt to put the blamre anywhere except where it truly belongs – on a backward and barbaric people.
March 19th, 2010 at 8:02 am
DPF likes to quote Noam Chomsky.
Here’s one for him:
March 19th, 2010 at 8:16 am
Included in the previous post on Blog Bits was a link to this piece on “Act’s Problem”.
There are plenty of regular Actees here, so I’m surprised there was not any comment on it.
Has the criticism of Heather Roy been fair?
Would Act be better off de-Rogered?
Are they more or less likely to survive in parliament without him?
Would New Zealand be better off?
March 19th, 2010 at 8:21 am
Go read the Woman’s Weekly Pete.
March 19th, 2010 at 8:23 am
The Ploughshare guys are heroes who have not only represented a collective consensus on the verdit, but also proven the stand on principle. They are the only people with guts who stood up for what is right and just against a spy device which supports war and atrocities against humanity, especially the helpless women and children.
This spy device is funded in the millions by NZ tax to support war whether you and me or anyone else likes or not. It is against freewill, and conscience. If you understand that, it’s a massive violation of fundamental rights, and at the same time subjecting you the innocent NZer a warmonger against innocent persons.
But the fact that Christians are persecuted by Muslim’s in Arab worlds – the latest is the slaughter of Christian women and children Nigeria – , these Ploughshare Christians have risked their own lives to prevent the loss of Muslim lives which makes it a pure act above moral recognition.
March 19th, 2010 at 8:24 am
This week is the seventh anniversary of the “Black Spring”, when Castro’s regime arrested 75 dissidents in the biggest crackdown on independent thought on the island for years. The show trials, involving brutalities and Stalinesque distortions of law, prompted only weak protests world-wide.
It is way past time for regime change in Cuba.
March 19th, 2010 at 8:27 am
A link, for those interested in Cuba: http://babalublog.com/
March 19th, 2010 at 8:50 am
Plougshare Team
March 19th, 2010 at 8:52 am
The Ploughshare guys are terrorists who should have been given their three warnings and shot down.
you would know anything about international secutiry if you grabbed by the balck helicopters and taken to gitmo. You personally don’t have the sligtest fucking idea what Waihopai is and what it does.
As always a leftie is squealing loudest about something they know nothing about. You people are fucking pathetic.
March 19th, 2010 at 9:01 am
Pete George, if ACT people believed any of the bullshit they spout they would not be in a coalition with the Nats.
Hmm, Douglas ranting that he was entitled to lots of tax payer money to fly to Britain on holiday, hardly the mark of someone who believes the country needs to save money.
But, I just cannot see Hide surviving the next election, not if those TV clips are played often enough with him stating he was entitled to trough.
March 19th, 2010 at 9:04 am
Tassman – how did these fruits ‘risk their lives’? Don’t be so melodramatic. THey might have had heart attacks from all the excitemnt of ‘saving Musllim lives’ while at the same time risking Western ones.
March 19th, 2010 at 9:07 am
I could get to like this RIP thing, Thank you whomever recommended it.
As an aside, at present Lebanon (an alleged Iranian proxy) is on the UN Security Council for the next two years, but Israel a sovereign state also in the same geographic area as Lebanon (right next door), can never be on the security council because the Islamic nations around her refuse to allow her onto the same geographic group as them.
The other members of the UN won’t force them to be democratic about it or penalise them in some way for their actions.
March 19th, 2010 at 9:09 am
[[ The Ploughshare guys are terrorists who should have been given their three warnings and shot down.
you would know anything about international secutiry if you grabbed by the balck helicopters and taken to gitmo. You personally don’t have the sligtest fucking idea what Waihopai is and what it does.
As always a leftie is squealing loudest about something they know nothing about. You people are fucking pathetic. ]]
Anyone who is loud is the likes of you and company. I’d hate to see the sight of the people you live with, and I bet ya you won’t even the one end of sub-auto from another. As I said before, if you were true, you’d be in Afghanistan right now, but that’s a joke isn’t. You’d be home the next bleeming blame suffering from the effects of your own shite…
What else are you gonna show us today…go on, make my day… punk!
March 19th, 2010 at 9:11 am
They call it wounded in action, and friendly fire… jhellow
March 19th, 2010 at 9:11 am
The Ploughshare terrorists have acted against the political and security interests of every New Zealander and the fact that they have were aquitted says more about the quality of their legal team than it does about their cause.
March 19th, 2010 at 9:13 am
18 million dollars for four years in a soft jail…….
Where do I sign up for that deal?
March 19th, 2010 at 9:13 am
Murray, you turning into a liberal ? I’m a lefty and if any bastards chucked bags of acid or sank ships not giving a fuck if there was crew aboard I would put 7.62 rounds into them.
Fuck Gitmo, it is too much of a holiday camp for those arseholes to be in.
March 19th, 2010 at 9:26 am
Tassman, you are a very sexist person. You should apologise to Women now. Your support of the Poughshare terrorist/heros also infers your Support of the Teleban. In addition to the Teleban’s history of showing off the strong arm of Islam (public executions etc) they also banned education from girls and excluded women from government and positions of influence.
To use your level of hysteria, it is clear to me that you do not think women are deserving of an education and nor should they form a credible part of government. The Greens are hippocrates for having a female coleader. Helen Clark and Jenny Shipley were an aberation that you believe should never happen again.
I do not know about you, but from my opinion oppressors like the Teleban have no place in this world.
March 19th, 2010 at 9:28 am
Grant
I know very little of the background to your first post, but concur with your end point.
It galls me that the UN and the democratic nations at the UN allow Cuba, Zimbabwe, Saudi Arabia, China, Russia, Sudan and others the right to speak, sit on the Human Rights Committee and hold other substantive committee posts instead of suspending their voting rights and making them have observer status until they actually meet the so called UN values.
The whole shebang needs reform.
March 19th, 2010 at 9:31 am
Have any of you looked at the ploughshares website and followed any of the links.
They also support the indigenous people treaty at the UN.
One of the major thrusts of that is the elevation of indigenous people over the wicked colonisers!
March 19th, 2010 at 9:38 am
this is one of my recommended-watch’s for the day..
http://whoar.co.nz/2010/south-park-does-tiger-woods/
very funny..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
March 19th, 2010 at 9:39 am
@Grant Michael McKenna 8:24 am
Meanwhile, at Gitmo and Thomson…
March 19th, 2010 at 9:41 am
“..The Greens are hippocrates for having a female coleader..”
that is also very funny..!
bless the illiterates..!
..and the involuntary humour they produce..
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
March 19th, 2010 at 9:44 am
ooo..!
“..What else are you gonna show us today…go on, make my day… punk!..”
tassman is having a de niro/taxi-driver moment/morning..
does anyone know him well enough to give him a hug..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
March 19th, 2010 at 9:47 am
What on earth is wrong with Gitmo Toad?
March 19th, 2010 at 10:12 am
Hitler on cricket:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/ben_macintyre/article7066144.ece
Obviously an effortless player of the swinging, seaming delivery that man.
March 19th, 2010 at 10:20 am
and..contrary to popular belief..hitler was not a vegetarian..
http://whoar.co.nz/2010/why-hitler-was-not-a-vegetarian/
“..Not even the august New York Times has a staff large enough to verify all the facts in the letters published in the Letters to the Editor section; ..
.. so I decided to look up the specific passages in Payne’s biography of Hitler .. and Dione Lucas’s The Gourmet Cooking School Cookbook that cast doubt on Hitler’s vegetarianism.
Sure enough, Robert Payne, whose biography of Hitler, The Life and Death of Adolf Hitler, has been called definitive, scotches the rumor that Hitler might have been a vegetarian.
According to Payne, Hitler’s vegetarianism was a fiction made up by his propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels to give him the aura of a revolutionary ascetic ..
.. a Fascistic Gandhi, if you will.
It is worth quoting from Payne’s biography directly:
“Hitler’s asceticism played an important part in the image he projected over Germany.
According to the widely believed legend, he neither smoked nor drank, nor did he eat meat or have anything to do with women.
Only the first was true.
He drank beer and diluted wine frequently, had a special fondness for Bavarian sausages and kept a mistress, Eva Braun, who lived with him quietly in the Berghof.
There had been other discreet affairs with women.
His asceticism was fiction invented by Goebbels to emphasize his total dedication, his self-control, the distance that separated him from other men.
By this outward show of asceticism, he could claim that he was dedicated to the service of his people.”
so..there ya go..eh..?
just another example of rightwing ‘spin’..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
March 19th, 2010 at 10:22 am
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/5850857/he-gets-it.thtml
Some understand the dilemma the west is in, in the light of the background to the ploughshares acquittal do we?
March 19th, 2010 at 10:23 am
Yeah Toad – the inmates in Gitmo dread going to one of those supermax prisons in the middle of some freeezing prairie in the mid-west. In Gitmo they have good weather, menu choices and spend all day banging their heads on the floor to Allah with their mates.
March 19th, 2010 at 10:29 am
and then..right on cue..
up pops mike with an example of modern rightwing ‘spin’/lies/propaganda..
this in the form of a ‘yellow-peril/taliban-peril rant on why the war in afghanistan must be fought..
it actually dosen’t detail the ‘peril’..
but starts with a reminder of (attempted) ‘appeasment’ of nazi hordes..
and ends with a rallying call for a ‘churchill’ for today..
absolute tosh/horseshit..
and (involuntarily) quite funny..
(not least..because many of the knuckle-draggers .. who breath heavily in these environs..
..believe/preach this crap..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
March 19th, 2010 at 10:58 am
When the Taliban come marching in, Griz will still be sitting at his computer sharing opinions with his fellow travellers – all the way up to where he decides that these guys aren’t so different to the fellas down the pub, and that they might just have the answer to his troubled relationships with women.
The war on terror is simply a fraud.
The school-yard bully does not pick on the strong, but on the weak. By humiliating and making an example of the weak, the bully then imposes and exploits fear to take all they can from all the school students. Two bankrupt and enfeebled states (Afghanistan and Iraq) (along with undeclared war in Pakistan) have been the global bully’s most recent targets.
As a result of the bully’s foreign policy we have restarted the nuclear arms race, and expanded all conventional arms races.
If you’re interested in how to bring down dictaters without war, go to Serbia, South Africa, Philippines and Indonesia. beyond a certain low cunning, bullies don’t think.
Oooops, I think I see the Taliban on Lambton Quay now!
March 19th, 2010 at 10:59 am
That’s rubbish. The first requirement of being a terrorist is that you must cause terror. Who out there is lying awake afraid of these guys? They didn’t harm anyone; they didn’t even threaten or try to harm anyone. “terrorism” isn’t a general term for “something I don’t like”.
March 19th, 2010 at 11:23 am
Bryla
I have read your comments over the last few days, and have a question for you which I hope you will answer in the spirit in which it is posed:
My question is:
Given that that Islam and its adherents, both radical and passive, are quite specific and open in their determination to establish a world-wide caliphate and destroy the Western World, it’s culture and civilization (and yes, that even includes Australia) to establish this, (The koran is very specific about this) and that a direct consequence of this will be the removal, by force if necessary, of your rights as an Australian citizen to have the freedom to protest against such things as Waihopai and the ‘carrying of arms by anyone’;
‘At what point will you be prepared to take up arms to defend both your homeland (Australia), your way of life (and, presumably, your family) and your (soon to be removed under Islam) democratic right to protest against whatever it is that you don’t like’?
As I said, this question is posed in seriousness.
I look forward to your reply with interest.
Thanks.
March 19th, 2010 at 11:38 am
Glenn Mitchell (Australian Broadcasting Corp) really shows how good test cricket radio commentary can be.
Aussie 29-1 after eight overs.
March 19th, 2010 at 11:44 am
Bryla 10:58 am,
And by extension the twin towers are still standing in New York.
There was no bombing of the London tube.
There were no Muslim youth riots in France.
There were no clashes with Muslim youth in Bondi.
And additionally, there is no friction in much of Europe between Muslim immigrants and those native to those lands.
It’s nice here in my parallel utopian universe … shame about you suckers that have to reside in the REAL world.
March 19th, 2010 at 12:08 pm
Komata,
How would you describe the spirit in which your question was posed?
March 19th, 2010 at 12:11 pm
Hey Grizz
I think you are mistaking sexy with sexist.
The argument is in meta logic and I didn’t expect you among the Mhurries of this site to comprehend it…
March 19th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
Yeah, and if Murray was a male, he’ll send his wife to Afghanistan while he blows hot air in here….
March 19th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Real men play rugby, drink beer, go fishing, and never PCssss
March 19th, 2010 at 12:22 pm
So Tassman and others…
The war in Afghanistan is being conducted via Waihopai?
WTF
That is deluded Luddite BS. The US military have their own comms systems including their own satellites, they have a big budget.
You sound like complete dicks when you get basic facts like that wrong.
Picking up on key words in conversations via electronic means is to stop murderous little shits blowing up planes with ordinary people on board. Like 911 or the plots in Britain.
So do you wish those human excrements had actually succeeded in blowing up dozens of planes over the Atlantic?
March 19th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
The Priest defended himself successfully…and the jury returned the verdict. So tell me, who is the dick then Lance!
March 19th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Answer the question!
Waihopai is to stop bombing of planes.. do you support terrorism.
It’s a simple question
March 19th, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Concerning my diatribes on anti education National….
I am also going to b e given papers by leaders of the student union on how anti education policies have been drafted since 5 yrs ago under liarbour.
These same liars are coming to the defence of the tertiary student union who simply have to put Sue Moroney and Nanaia Muhuta on the spot
March 19th, 2010 at 1:12 pm
I see that National have wasted another $250,000 of our money on promoting the NZ rally.
March 19th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
Not a very good opening session to the test Big Bruv….
I thought Arnel and Martin bowled outstandingly, but Southee let a bit of pressure off. We need to have a strong session after lunch to have any chance of restricting them to under 400
March 19th, 2010 at 1:33 pm
Having to listen on the radio for the first two sessions Nick so I cannot comment on the way we are bowling, I suspect we will struggle to bowl then out in any innings on this tour.
March 19th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
“And by extension the twin towers are still standing in New York.
There was no bombing of the London tube.
There were no Muslim youth riots in France.
There were no clashes with Muslim youth in Bondi.”
You left out the train bombings in Spain
March 19th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Ryan
I would say the spirit is “polite questioning” and I am too eager to hear Bryla’s answer.
I have known people from the justice orientated wing of christianity for years now, they are happy to attack the wicked colonising west and are similar to the liberation theology people. The ploughshares people also support self determination for indigenous peoples at the UN which attacks present nations sovereignties.
so I look forward to brylas reply.
March 19th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
I was intrigued by Pete George’s earlier post about the ACT Party so I went to take a look. Certainly some interesting aspects of this story yet to be told perhaps so thanks for pointing out Geoff Miller’s article; in particular this comment http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2010/03/acts-problem-roger-not-roy.html#comment-6a00d83451d75d69e201310fb8cfe4970c
March 19th, 2010 at 2:02 pm
Aussie 100/1 after 34 overs.
March 19th, 2010 at 2:17 pm
Bryla’s 1058 says it all. We know it .They wont say it. They are vehemently anti American,and very likely are Marxists. They are not truely Christian as they love Marx and hate their non Marxist opponents.
He cites Pakistan, the pure country born out of religious hatred and civil war. They and the Hindoos have the dreaded bomb……..Americas fault perhaps ? Not Iran and N Korea, those loving peaceful kind dictatorships.
He cites Serbia, a Christian country that fellow Christian Clinton hammered
He cites the Philippines where another civil and religiouos war is on going
He cites South Africa where the white man HANDED OVER the reins of power(watch its steady decline through rape ,murder and xenophobia)
He cites Indonesia where Muslims kill and oppress Christians and Hindoos almsot daily and oppress the indiginous in Papua.
Oh and I hope the Waihopai vandals enjoy the uncertainty of the next wee while while the Crown considers an appeal. Ha ha ha and if they dont a civil suit to reclaim the damages would be nice.
March 19th, 2010 at 2:21 pm
Aussie
100/1110/2 after some slick fielding.March 19th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
Ryan
Thank you for asking.
As I am not given to phlippancy, the question was posed as a polite, non-combative, politically-neutral and emminently-serious enquiry – an attempt to learn Bryla’s opinion. and what his intended response to a given-situation would be.
(Of course whether others care to debate his reply is of course over to them.. I was merely asking to learn his viewpoint,)
I am however somewhat puzzled by Bryla’s noticable absence and his non-response – should I be concerned?
March 19th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
115/3
March 19th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
Aussie 115-3
Hughes, Ponting and Hussey all dismissed.
March 19th, 2010 at 2:46 pm
Komata 2:22 pm,
Perhaps he got Raptured™ and we got left behind?!
March 19th, 2010 at 3:13 pm
Komata,
Your question began with a paragraph-long premise which may be obviously and uncontentiously true to you, but if Bryla doesn’t accept it – and I suspect he doesn’t – then he can’t really answer in any meaningful way.
It would be like someone saying to a Christian, “Given that Christianity is a combination of Middle Eastern ancient history and sexist masochistic Platonism and is responsible for justifying tyrannical state oppression throughout much of the last 2000 years as well as holding back the scientific advancement of the Western world for centuries, how can you call yourself a progressive Christian?”
If you are genuinely interested in understanding where Bryla is coming from, I’d recommend asking him if he agrees with your evaluation of Islam and its billion adherents worldwide and – if he disagrees – why.
March 19th, 2010 at 3:15 pm
Kris K
Sadly yes – and I’m not even an Anglican, or a Roman Catholic or . . .(you know, the ones who have ‘the one true faith’) just a Charismatic, Pentecostal Christian.
Isn’t it great?
(Oh, and I’m also a Christian Zionist – even better
)
March 19th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
Ryan
Thanks again. I actually believe that I have asked that question (albiet indirectly), so I’ll leave it as it stands.
The silence that is Bryla’s response is however, becoming somewhat deafening, so I suppose that conclusions may have to start being drawn, which is a pity really, because the question was very neutral, and delibrately a-political.
Oh well . .
March 19th, 2010 at 3:27 pm
You rate Bondi with bombings and 9/11?
March 19th, 2010 at 3:38 pm
Komata, Bryla may not be online – it’s possible he’s flying back to Aus (if he hadn’t already) or could be all sorts of reasons.
March 19th, 2010 at 3:45 pm
You know who else took flights on planes?
Hitler.
March 19th, 2010 at 3:51 pm
vmcrns – hard to know who in Act is getting what stories out, and why. But the reality is that Hide and Roy need to look like they can work together and build support. They need each other. I think Hide can recover ok from last year, he genuinely looked like he learnt a major lesson from it (everyone makes mistakes, it takes more to show you have learnt and can improve from it) but won’t be able to hide from the Super City, however that is looking in eighteen months.
March 19th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
So did Obama, from where he was born to where he was elected. There’s some weird stuff going on in the world.
March 19th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
my entry for the new auckland logo competition would be a stylised .. eh? ..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
March 19th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
163-3 at tea.
March 19th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
Could be all sorts of reasons, such as he’s online on other left/right wing bloggs or Scoop discussing his viewpoint, or savouring his tofu sandwich or maybe like alot of leftwing activists (well the ones that I used to know) that are too PC and sexually repressed, are actually doing his damnest to get into the pants of some kiwi activist girl (and “use” each other and then next day feel ashamed and call it quits. One good way to get around so to speak. We’ll have to ask him what the score is)
I do hope we hear more for him, it is fascinating trying to understand his way of thinking (ditto he’ll be just as amused about us and we’ll no doubt provide him with some good fodder for his writings on the kooks that inhabit Kiwiblog etc).
I do hope he provides us with a URL to his activist blog, so we and others can continue the debate there.
Notice how Peace Group blogs/websites mostly don’t allow public comments? (Unlike say defence and security orientated websites where on can comment)? Hmm I wonder why that is? Why don’t so called peace activists want greater public discussion? Too afraid of the truth affecting their collective groupthink resolve perhaps?
March 19th, 2010 at 4:19 pm
Yeah, bunch of tofu-eating sexually repressed politically correct sex-addicted censorship-mad motherfuckers.
March 19th, 2010 at 4:22 pm
176 – 4
Katich LBW Arnel 79
March 19th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
Hmmm ….. Cults.
Are these stroppy peacenik activist groups similar to cults?
Let’s see, groupthink prevails, they are always right/correct, dissenting comments are closed down…. what are the other similarities?
(And nice try Ryan, but who are you kidding)!
March 19th, 2010 at 4:35 pm
have you thought that he may still be hung over from the after party?
March 19th, 2010 at 4:42 pm
Ryan Sproull 3:27 pm,
Did I actually say or imply that, Ryan?
Ryan 3:45 pm,
Ryan 4:19 pm,
Have they just recently over-dosed the Auckland water supply with fluoride, Ryan?
Or did you just get out of the wrong side of the bed thismorning?
You seem to be decidely disagreeable today – I’ll pray that the day may get better for you – it is TGIF, afterall.
March 19th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
Islamist denial? Straight out of the hard left playbook. Reminds me of the FDR and Truman staffers who insisted that the Soviet Union wasn’t a threat to the West even while the reds were blatantly starting their consolidation of power in Eastern Europe.
March 19th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
So here we are in countdown to Hezbollah (Iran) and Gaza vs Israel no 2.
OB1 has soured the water so that he can punish Israel when she needs resupply and to put her off taking out Iran’s rockets.
Meanwhile that bastion of democracy the UN has stood by an aided and abetted Iran and Syria in rearming Hezbollah for round 2 later this year.
One things for sure Israel won’t wait for another 10,000 rockets tof all this time, but have they woken up to the threat OB1 actually is?
Wonder what take the ploughshares have on Israel and the Jews?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10633013&pnum=0
March 19th, 2010 at 5:05 pm
It appears that the ship Steve Irvin with its boat load of assorted high-sea pirates has arrived in Wellington harbour….
March 19th, 2010 at 5:09 pm
Oh no jag, quick get outta that shithole Deadwood city, remember Pearl Harbour
March 19th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
dad4justice 5:09 pm,
You don’t mean to say that the Japs are going to pull a ‘Waihopai’ and try to destroy the Steve Irwin because they sincerely believe it puts Japanese lives at risk?
Bugger! – your satellite dish has obviously intercepted this important information – thanks for the heads up; us Wellingtonians thank you.
March 19th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
Their constituents, all 50 of them (the wacko fan club and presumably – hopefully – some GCSB plants) have lined Queen’s wharf to welcome them.
Internal affairs should go down and cordon off the Wharf while they can and bar them all from entering/re-entering the country. Cast the wharf adrift.
March 19th, 2010 at 5:20 pm
Can we send them a few Rainbow Warrior pictures? Zero ten o’clock.
March 19th, 2010 at 5:24 pm
Komata, sorry this took so long, but I’ve spent today meeting with Wellington peace activists, and right now I’m sitting at a nice cafe bar in Te Papa museum playing tourist.
I will never take up arms.
There is a body of knowledge about both nonviolence as a defence, and the pragmatic techniques of social defence which go to preventing invasion by suborning foreign troops, by sabotage of supply lines and materiel, and by cohesive nonviolent resistance. Think the Gandhian resistance in India. Remember Parihaka (which “failed” at the time but is now a world famous stand-out example of nonviolence).
If “evil” forces come to kill or hurt me family, my friends, or my community, they will only be able to do so over my dead body.
Soldiers risk everything in war. Surely peace activists must be willing to do the same to end war.
Finally I cannot leave without observing that the “threat” of Islam is terribly exaggerated. Sure Islamic terrorists exist, as do Christian terrorists and secular terrorists (think Timothy McVeigh, or George W’s brief call to a Crusade, before he hid it once again behind the war on/of terror).
Islam was part of the (small amount) comparative religion studies I did at university, and the terrorists you cite are a tiny fundamentalist percentage of the Islamic world. Otherwise the religion is beautiful, and one of the Abrahamic religions which recognises Jesus as a prophet. Judaism and Christianity are the other Abrahamic religions.
I suggest that the way to limit and then disarm Islamic terrorism is to enlist the aid of their nonviolent Islamic brothers and sisters. Of course we would need to treat those brothers and sisters fairly and justly to enlist their aid.
Does this answer your question?
March 19th, 2010 at 5:32 pm
You sure didn’t waste your time and money there, did you?
Were you enough of a dolt to only be able to do a theology degree to start with, or did the deluded “higher power” muck rot your brain while you were studying it?
An oxymoron, Islamism denial AND moral equivilency. Their score sheet doesn’t make them the same.
March 19th, 2010 at 5:35 pm
Bryla 5:24 pm,
I don’t think their are too many Muslims with ‘Neville’ as a first name, sadly.
The world’s had enough of ‘Nevilles’, we need more ‘Winstones’ to deal with the Islamic threat.
Mohammed (‘peace’ be upon him) would have had ‘Neville’ for an entre.
You need to read more of the Koran and Hadith to truly understand Islamic global aims.
March 19th, 2010 at 5:38 pm
OK! You’ve convinced us. Evil Muslims are coming to kill us all. We get it.
Beer o’clock already.
March 19th, 2010 at 6:01 pm
bryla
Thank you for your reply – it makes interesting, albeit somewhat sad reading, but thank you for clarifying your stand for both me and the rest of the forum.
Another question inevitably follows from what you have written: Imagine the following:
You have become involved in a street battle with Muslim-sympathisers, (not as a protagonist, but as an unwitting civilian – it does happen) and a soldier (say a member of the Royal Australian Army ) is beside you, fighting to defend your country (Australia) and, by extension, your right to protest.
The soldier is suddenly seriously injured and the individual who shot him appears before you determined to finish your (Australian) soldier off.
What are YOU, Bryla, going to do, especially as it is very obvious that once the soldier is dead, you will probably be next – particularly because you are variously a European, a Westerner and an Infidel.
I would be very interested in your answer, because this situation is unfortunately not hypothetical (although the substitution of Australia for other nations is – at the moment).
And, as I said before, this is not a flippant question, and I cannot of course be responsible for the reactions of others to what you write.
Thanks.
Thanks.
March 19th, 2010 at 6:20 pm
A change of subject for a moment.
We are going to get rich in tax breaks it seems. That is if $20 a week makes anyone rich.
Most will benefit from new tax plans
Friday, 19, Mar, 2010 1:50PM
Research suggests most New Zealanders will be better off under a new tax structure to be unveiled at the next budget.
The Government plans to cut personal income tax but increase GST.
The New Zealand Institute of Economic Research says it has carried out preliminary estimates which show the median household earning $65,000 a year, will be better off by around $12 per week.
It reports households within the top 50 percent income bracket will continue to pay around 80 percent of all income tax, while the bottom 30 percent will continue to pay around eight percent of the total.
March 19th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
Well if you are sincere with this suggestion (and for example “you” also don’t use it as a means to slag off the meddling west and/or USA when you or your colleagues are over there) then I sincerely would have respect for your aims. For it would be no easy task and it will take a lot of time (a long time, but one needs to start somewhere) and courage, for every good intention there will be others that live over there doing their utmost to stop “you”.
So I’d rather see you guys stop with the easy targets (western bases and infrastructure etc) and do some “good”, in places were a good dose of “good” is needed. (Just please be respectful to the western forces if they need to bail you out a la Harmeet Sooden, and his apparent scowling of them for being rescued).
Again I respect your sincere beliefs. Where we part it seems, is as for me, if “evil” came to kill or hurt my family, I suspect these “evil” fanatics would take great pleaseure in finding out if I were for example a Pacifist like you (which I’m not) in taunting me by raping, dismembering my partner and child in front of me first, before they make me a dead body. So this is our difference, I would not stand for that, I would rather kill (if I could, not that I have killed anything before) these “evil” fanatics before they dared layed a hand on my family.
Happy to keep up the dialogue – just tell us where you reside in the blog world when you get back to Oz.
March 19th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/3476923/NZIER-does-tax-cut-numbers
NZIER does tax cut numbers
N
A household with an income of $65,000 a year is likely to be better off by around $12 a week under tax changes in the upcoming budget, according to the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research (NZIER).
The calculation takes into account the impact of a likely reduction in personal income tax and increase in goods and services tax (GST) but does not include potential changes to Working for Families or potential changes to investment property.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/personal-finance/3476513/Dunne-fuels-tax-change-expectations
Dunne fuels tax change expectations
NZPA
Last updated 13:40 19/03/2010
Revenue Minister Peter Dunne has added further weight to widespread expectations the tax system on property investment is to be changed, and personal taxes are to be lowered.
Speaking to the International Fiscal Association conference in Christchurch today, Mr Dunne said changes to the tax treatment of property were likely, to make the rules fairer and more equitable for all taxpayers.
And just to make the lot of them look foolish as they are here is the result of a study into the TWG basic information that they and dopey Dunne assume is gospel. Its basically flawed and fictitious. A bit like Global Warming.
http://www.interest.co.nz/ratesblog/index.php/2010/03/18/auckland-uni-think-tank-challenges-tax-working-groups-nz200-bln-figure-for-rental-properties/
So we have a Govt. that continues with lies and poor quality information and is hell bent on sending NZ’s SME’ s into depression and bankruptcy.
Most are funded by housing values and if these idiots in Govt. continue to undermine the value of those houses that are used to fund business in NZ (and for most there is no other way) then depression is where we are heading. Rapidly I would add.
“This is not an attack on landlords
March 19th, 2010 at 7:14 pm
There are two things I have to say.
One is that we have to make an effort to stay realistic in our imaginings about what could happen. For example Komata postulates that somehow I am in a Moslem street demonstration, and that their are armed jihadis and Australian soldiers there. I’ve got to ask how did that happen? I don’t visit or live in war zones. What is an Australian soldier doing policing Moslems?
Likewise niggly posits an extreme evil force that takes gratuitous pleasure from inflicting atrocity. My understanding of atrocity is that it comes out of extreme situations where armed men and women have already been brutalised beyond bearing, and all civilised constraints have broken down. How did that happen?
Many years ago I was taught that the job of civilised men and women is to make sure that situations like Komata and niggly describe don’t happen. That by doing our civic duty, and that by working for justice, we ensure situations like that don’t develop.
I believe that all human beings are innately good, and that in situations where the opportunity exists to meet basic needs, to enjoy respect, and to develop potential that people will not destroy and take life gratuitously. 9/11 and the Iraq war did not arise out of those kinds of circumstances – and my utter condemnation of the invasion of Iraq is that it ensured a continuing level of violence and brutality in that country for some decades.
If people want me to show I’m not mindlessly anti-US, then I similarly condemn the Russian actions in Afghanistan and Chechnia, the Chinese actions in Tibet, India and Pakistan equally for Kashmir, etc. etc.
As an Australian, my responsibility lies in ensuring my government, and my people, are acting with integrity, accountability, and compassion for justice. I don’t go to other people’s country and tell them what to do (although I’ll participate in debate when invited).
The blog I participate in for public discussion is http://www.cairnsblog.net
The blog I use as an organising instrument is http://www.cairnspeacebypeace.org. I don’t allow fractious comment there. That’s not its purpose.
I’m going to Otaki this weekend. Back in Wellington Monday, and flying home Tues/Wed. Until then I’ll participate on this blog.
I really appreciate those of you interested in dialogue, and exchange. I think you should be proud of your culture, and your justice system, and I think you have a lot to offer the world.
(and I will go to confession and seek absolution when I get home for giving into the temptation of provoking those among you who display a reckless approach to truth, knowledge and humanity. U know who U R.)
March 19th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
Oh yeah, in answer to the moral question “What would I do?” I would put myself between the attacker and the intended target, and I would ask if there’s anything I could do to help.
March 19th, 2010 at 7:54 pm
Bryla 7:14 pm,
And that’s your first mistake right there! (Although I’m sure you’re genuine when you say it)
As a Christian this is my view:
If we are honest and look within ourselves we can see the evil that resides there.
March 19th, 2010 at 8:11 pm
Agree (more or less) eg fanatics aren’t usually born that way. Being brutalised and when civilised constraints break down, means people start behaving badly as a result. But mind you not all people.
Now to take a different perspective on your statement, I wonder whether you can see my viewpoint in that:
The Iraq war is over. The rebuilding has begun. The Iraqi’s are pretty much back in control. To ensure peace and stability, to ensure infrastructure is rebuilt, to ensure people there can have jobs (without fear of getting shot) …. means we need to support the Western (and Iraqi) forces (now under UN Mandate) to enforce the peace. For if there is no stability, there would be no peace.
Do you agree with me? Logically you should, but I suspect you won’t be able to because of your “position”. You see that’s where (IMO) the likes of Keith Locke, Nicky Hager et al, are wrong (if not fools of the highest degree) because calling for a withdraw of Western forces (from Iraq or Afghanistan) or the dismantling of the western security apparatus will not result in continued stability, hence peace. We all want peace, right?
Similarly to take a slightly different perspective on your statement, I also believe the US Armed Forces (nor the Oz and NZ defence forces etc) don’t wish to destroy and take life gratuitously. When innocents are mistaken killed by drones in the Middle East, usually it is a result of intelligence failures (or misinformation on part of the locals in having other agendas). Thus my viewpoint is, intelligence gathering is vital. So ensuring the trust and support of the local population. This is one positive aspect of Special Forces (US, NZSAS, whatever), they have to work with the people on the street to ensure their trust, hence I’m all for the NZSAS in Kabul, good on them.
US Foreign Policy may not be perfect by any means. But it is always better to be working with them to make them get it or see other perspectives, rather than against them (where they thus don’t have to listen).
March 19th, 2010 at 8:49 pm
Bryla
Thank you for your reply. As with your previous reply to my enquiry, it was enlightening and revealing. My hypothetical situation was based on the concept that Australia was under attack from Islamic forces – a not-impossible situation since Indonesia is only a few miles away from the Northern Territory and there is a growing Muslim presence in the cities as shown by the ‘Lab’ incidents a few months ago at Bondi. (The koran actually DOES advocate the creation of a’Fifth column’ amongst the dwelling places of the infidels, but no doubt you know that already)
I have to admire your principles and congratulate you on standing by them, (to the exclusion of your family, homeland and civilisation), but, having said that, I also have to say that you and I are diametrically-opposed in our viewpoints in respect of responses to threats posed by both military and militant religious groups. I would/will fight any attempt to destroy my country, my civilization, my freedom, and, most importantly my family, a view which is, I suspect shared by many of the readers of this forum. That you will make a deliberate choice not lift a finger to either protect yourself or your family and country surprises me, but that is something over which we will, of course, have to disagree.
I do find your response: ‘I would put myself between the attacker and the intended target, and I would ask if there’s anything I could do to help’ somewhat naive, since, as I indicated before, Islam isn’t interested in you or your beliefs and would find your request hilarious and an indication of western niavety – confirming their perceptions (as stated in the koran) that the ‘West’ is degenerate and in need of ‘liberation’ into Islam. Your comments do however seem to indicate that they would find you a very willing slave – at least until you were no longer of use, at which point it would be ‘curtains for the bunny. . ‘
I believe that you wildly underestimate the looming threat from Islam, (even in Australia) but as you don’t see that the threat is from Islam per se’ I cannot expect that you will understand that. Understanding that there is actually a threat ultimately comes down to individual perceptions and experiences I suppose, although a point to remember is that as far as Islam is concerned, everywhere a Muslim foot walks automatically becomes Islamic property and is to be defended to the death and reclaimed by force (aka violence) when the day of reckoning and uprising occurs. I just hope that you are as ready to actually die for your pacifistic beliefs as your comments so far sem to indicate. It may actually become necessary.
Again, thank you for your replies – much appreciated.
March 19th, 2010 at 9:13 pm
Hey groovers, thanx for the discussion, and I agree to disagree in the way we think, and the conclusions we draw.
I suspect you’ve already guessed that I’m not naive, and I respect your intelligence and integrity.
It’s difficult sometimes to know with any certainty what’s going on, particularly where “intelligence and security” issues guarantee government silence (if not outright deception).
I’ve been a peace activist for more than 30 years. In that journey I spent 9 years at university studying strategic issues and international relations in east Asia. I did comparative religion to better understand some of the cultural constraints in Indonesia (Islam), China (Confucian before communism), Thailand (Buddhism), and Japan (variants of Shinto and Buddhism).
Australia is not going to be invaded by Indonesia – pragmatically because it doesn’t have enough armed force for external adventurism AND maintain its own internal control of the non-Javanese populations at the same time. Invade Australia, lose the homeland and then fail in the invasion.
As for re-building Iraq, I’m all for it, but it can only happen through the exercise of Iraqi sovereignty, NOT externally imposed “security”.
How happy are you that the geo-political results of the invasion is an enriching and strengthening of Iran? Or the clear exposition of the limits to US military power. Talk about the law of unintended consequences. Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush (the 3 stooges).
Signing off until tomorrow,
Cheers
Bryan
March 20th, 2010 at 12:55 am
You know who else signed off until tomorrow.
Hitler.
March 20th, 2010 at 7:58 am
MikeNZ, you need to understand that your position on Israel/Palestine (basically that the white guys are the good guys and the wogs can fuck off) is in a tiny minority in the wider world, as Noam Chomsky pointed out in the opening post.
The vast majority of populations support overwhelmingly the two state solution, but I suspect the ex-colonised (which is the vast majority) would really want to see the restoration of Palestinians to the rightful ownership of their land, in whatever form it takes – that’s their business.
Most of your posts show a profound ignorance of Arab/Muslim/Jewish relations over the last two thousand years, to put it politely. Here is a snippet of that history that may make you sit up. David Ben Gurion (I presume you have heard of him), in the lead up to WWI, argued that the Zionists in Israel should side with the Ottomans, not the British. He lost that argument.
The only reason Israel still exists in its current form is the power of the Israel Lobby in the US. One day, for reasons at present completely unknown, that power will wane. And the non-violent end of the conflict will surprise you.
March 20th, 2010 at 8:53 am
The jews are white now?
Post-modernist thinking seizes Luc, turns his self-loathing inside out.
March 20th, 2010 at 8:54 am
niggly, you are completely deluded.
1.
You are joking, surely. Without the back up from the US, Iraqi forces are a nonentity.
2.
Nah, sorry. Tell that to the million or so dead Iraqis. Or the dead civilians anywhere armed forces go. They are trained to kill – and when you want an army on your side (unlike Bryla, I do) that’s the way it has to be. But let’s not ignore facts.
3.
Crap. To become a Muslim, one does not need to believe anything like what the Christian religion demands, let alone what you say above. There are just five requirements, and faith is not a requirement. Most Muslims today, just like most Christians and most Buddhists and whatever are simply so because their parents were. End of story. Your Fox inspired nonsense could just as well be directed at the increasing hordes of murderous, fundamentalist Christians burgeoning in the US today. The ones who have killed a million Iraqis and tens of thousands of Afghans, and and ripped asunder two countries.
March 20th, 2010 at 9:01 am
Sorry, Tom, of course I meant to say black.
White is the new black, eh?
March 20th, 2010 at 9:01 am
Afghanistan has been in a perpetual state of asunderment.
Saddam Hussein had been doing a fair bit of asundering in Iraq – I didn’t agree with the invasion, but it’s done now. Iraq have to be given back control over their country, there will be inevitable ongoing asundering but they have to try and deal with that.
March 20th, 2010 at 9:09 am
For the left if it comes down to between Saddam Hussein vs Fox news Saddam Hussein wins every time.
March 20th, 2010 at 9:17 am
What point are you trying to make Simon?
Most of the US MSM ended up supporting the Iraq invasion. Some became critical of the mess that followed, it’s widely acknowledge that the post-invasion period was a major cock-up.
March 20th, 2010 at 9:29 am
Pete:
“Afghanistan has been invaded many times, its boundaries and governments almost always in dispute. Invaders include the Mughal rulers of South Asia, Russian Tsars, Soviet Union, British Empire, and currently a coalition force of NATO troops with UN-backing led by US armed forces.” Wiki.
Nowhere do I see any reports that Afghans actually requested these invasions. I remember the US solemnly promising to bomb the country back to the stone age when the Soviets had already beaten them to it. But wtf was that about. Most Afghans had no idea Al Qaeda even existed.
Saddam cannot and does not deserve to be defended, but the conditions which led to his rise were again created by western colonial powers. Today is the 7th anniversary of the latest invasion of Iraq, which has resulted in a disputed death toll but an undisputed fleeing of the country by over 4m Iraqis and another 1.3m IDPs.
I’m listening as I type this to a report on the rise of Sharia (Law) in Iraq. Progress, I guess.
Yep, we did them a favour, for sure.
March 20th, 2010 at 10:10 am
I just love this RIP.
Niggly
Bryla isn’t a pacifist, he is anti european/coloniser iof he was a true pacifist he would do the same anywhere in the world against the truly bad people we have.
He won’t as he only acts in a safe place like the West.
I will start to give them credit when i see them sealing Saudi Arabian, Chinese, Zimabwean, Cuban and other consulates and making public protests.
They won’t because that’s not who they are. (useful idiots).
Komata
if you look closely at the ploughshares group you will see a solidarity to the so called Palestinians and other indigenous peoples against the usurper/colonisers so its not that Bryla underestimates Islam it is he and his fellow travelers choose to ignore their threat and in effect they side with them. (maybe their hatred of the western consumer gods is so all encompassing).
Tom
I don’t get him now, his loathing is an open sore in his writing.
Simon
The left are so arrogant they can’t conceive of anyone who doesn’t agree with them having the same or better brains than them, so they resort to attack attack attack. They hope by making it personal, they can invalidate anything others say. It only works with morons who have no brains and doesn’t change the content.
Never give in to them.
March 20th, 2010 at 10:26 am
Why any of you bother engaging with Bryla is what I don’t understand. In his own land he is regarded as a hemorrhoid on the arse of society and like his brother in arms Russel Norman he has come to NZ because they see us as an easy mark. Going by the verdict of the twelve good jurors they are of course correct.
Unlike a real hemorrhoid it would be best to ignore him and he will wither from lack of attention which is the one thing that all pathetic little turds like him seek.
March 20th, 2010 at 10:44 am
“..MikeNZ (1488) Says:
March 20th, 2010 at 10:10 am
I just love this RIP..”
so you keep saying..
just who are you trying to convince..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
March 20th, 2010 at 10:47 am
Righty ho, I now have a clearer understanding of your position (but do correct me if I’m wrong), which is the reason for you supporting the Ploughshares attack on Waihopai (and it seems this is the same position of the 3 men) is that if it could be taken out of action, you will be saving lives, including the lives of for example jihadist’s & AQ etc, because your reasoning is all life, including the lives of people with (so called) “bad” intent (ie from our mainstream western perspective) are just as important as anyone else’s ie ALL lives are important, no matter whether one is “good” or “bad” so to speak?
Is this so? Or if not (or not quite) could you elaborate a bit further please?
For the purposes of my writing I will assume for now that this is the case. Of course you are entitled to your belief (and as per your last comment last night clearly we both agree to disagree with each other at times and that is perfectly fine).
But one thing I am not certain about is whether you are a purist in that to achieve your aims and ends then people will suffer in the meantime which an acceptable price to pay for achieving the perfect solution … or whether you (like me) accept the ideal is minimising suffering?
What I mean is, it appears that the position of, say the Greens and some peace groups (and it seems the Robert Fisk’s and Noam Chomsky’s etc), is that the ideal is a withdraw of western forces from say, Iraq and leave the people there to sort it out themselves. The reality is that civilians will still die in the process, but that’s acceptable, because at least there is no western involvement or complicity etc.
Whereas I would say my ideal is to minimise (ideally stop) civilian deaths and if that means western forces remain there working alongside Iraqi forces then so be it at the invitation of the Iraqi Govt (and UN mandated) then so be it. Mind you it could be that you prefer this ideal as well, but the difference could be in ensuring that deaths of “insurgents” are minimised if not stopped ie not allowed to happen?
Ok back onto the topic again and the Waihopai connection. But firstly, in your role as peace activist, you will be familiar with the tragedy that was East Timor (being invaded in 1975 whilst the west stood back). That history is well understood so let’s move forward to recent times. As you will know in 1999 the conditions fell into place for the “west” to assist the East Timorese with their independance, and Australia took the lead in establishing a UN mandated task force to ensure stability and drive out the remaining Indonesian backed militia etc.
I think I can assume that you are fully supportive of Timor Leste’s independance, right?
If so I think I can assume then that you, whilst perhaps preferring the ideal of the Timorese to have no outside western assistance, can accept that having for example NZ and OZ forces over there (and certainly not killing anyone) to ensure Timor Leste can establish good governance is actually a good thing, right?
If so, then you and the Ploughshare 3 then, need to realise that places like Waihopai are PIVOTAL in ensuring the security of places like Timor Leste by way of NZ (and thus OZ and sure the US too) are aware of what the Indonesians are planning. (Forget a Waihopia and Iraq connection, we’re talking about line of sight satellite tracking system, as I said before, grab a globe of the earth and a flat ruler, Waihopai cannot possibly “see” anything parked up Iraq ….. but apparently it can see those satellites/communications nearer the equator i.e. TIMOR LESTE.
And let’s not forget that whilst Indonesia currently is not seen as a threat to Australia as such, you will no doubt be also aware that in the other tragic case of West Papua, that despite Indonesia being a democracy now (fantastic), the Govt has not been able to (and no doubt won’t be able to) control those “rogue” elements of the Indonesian armed forces, the TNI, that control (at the point of a gun and via their proxy’s) very, very, very lucrative mining and timber felling industries there, that bare providing these rouge TNI elements many millions of dollars. It is critical that Waihopai (and other such western/NZ military and intelligence assets) be able to monitor these rogue TNI elements, which after all are killing and clearing out the native populations in certain areas.
Therefore can you now see what alot of Kiwiblog contributors have been saying, which is you and the Ploughshare 3 (and Keith Locke) are, when attacking Waihopai (as a means to get back at Uncle Sam for its Iraq invasion) are actually putting lives at risk, not only ANZAC/US/whatever forces in this region, but ultimately you are (inadvertantly) contributing to Indonesia complicity in West Papua (and who knows, thanks to Timor Leste’s new found gas an oil reserves) perhaps the very people of Timor Lester themselves.
If you accept my arguement, well, the right thing to do is admit the Ploughshare 3 got it wrong, and make amends. I don’t mean serve jail, the 3 were good intentioned in that the jury accepted it and the trial is over, but in my eyes a simple apology would be sufficent.
March 20th, 2010 at 11:19 am
Niggly,
I’m sitting in Wellington Railway station now, waiting for a bus to Otaki. Outside is a statue of Gandhi, who was influenced by events and Parihaka in his development of modern nonviolence.
I understand that you believe in armed force as a deterrent, and a corrective, but Gandhi would ask what kind of society are you really building that way, and are there better alternatives. gandhi had both a mystical and a pragmatic view of suffering. He often took on the suffering of others through fasting, in order to make visible the suffering of others – to whom the powers were paying no attention.
Psychologically, all people (apart from psychopaths) notice and are deeply affected by the suffering of others. When someone voluntarily takes on suffering, they begin to question and pay attention in a way that opens at least the possibility of change and further action. Nonviolence activists of any faith (even seculars) use these dynamics to advantage.
I understand the role of Waihopai in intelligence gathering, just as I understand the space-based nature of modern war-fighting (in which the US leads the world). Command, control, communications, and intelligence are greatly enhanced by space resources, and are called “force multipliers” with good reason.
Now, before I descend into the mechanics of “war-fighting” or “peace-keeping”, I’m going to ask whether or not you have confidence in the accountability of your government, its integrity, and its actual knowledge of how the US uses the Waihopai resource? Globally, Echelon has been exposed for its use in Commercial espionage (e.g. assisting Boeing over Airbus to win supply contracts), and diplomatic espionage (spying on UN Security Council members to influence their vote in 2003).
Are you sure that NZers would sign up for this kind of activity, and for it to be done at unilateral US discretion? Echelon is interrogated independently by each UK/USA signatory.
Then we might look at the alternatives. Milosevich in Serbia was removed from power and handed over to the ICC for trial through civil organisation. One youth group, Otpur, was funded by the US State Department to the tune of $24million, as part of that organisation, and it was all done in ways which strengthened democracy in that country. Iraq has cost some $3trillion, and has produced dire consequences.
Timor was a diplomatic failure by Australia long before it became a military atrocity. Whitlam, no doubt advised by “realists” in Foreign Affairs, consented to the military invasion. After war has started, nonviolent resolution and civil authority becomes orders of magnitude more difficult.
As for West Papua, colleagues of mine were involved in the negotiations that resulted in the OPM laying down its arms and becoming explicitly nonviolent (just as the ANC did in South Africa). That struggle has a fair way to travel, but is making progress.
It is for each person to make their own decisions about how they deal with these matters. I’ve chosen mine, but it doesn’t make me right – it just gives me a direction and a plan.
The Waihopai 3 were very humble in court, and frequently apologised for any inconvenience they caused. I doubt they’ll apologise for their intentions or their analysis, because they see themselves as making a contribution to restraining unaccountable, counter-productive state violence. Like me, they are anti-militarist and Christian, so I understand very clearly where they’re coming from.
So did the jury.
March 20th, 2010 at 11:28 am
And when a psychopath – leading a group of like-minded psychopaths as an armed vanguard – successfully take over a society, pacifists become worse than useless, even Ghandi:
March 20th, 2010 at 11:34 am
From Stuff…
“A woman was killed when a suspected drunk driver fled a police checkpoint and crashed into her vehicle in Blenheim last night”
Bastard should be charged with murder…then shot.
March 20th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
It’s not just a problem with psychopaths leading like minded people – experiments suggest that the majority of ordinary people will carry out extraordinary cruelty under instruction.
Game of Death: France’s Shocking TV Experiment
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2010/03/100318_game_of_death_et_sl.shtml
It relates back to experiments carried out by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Milgram
March 20th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
Shit I really miss Redbaiter.
Call him what you like but he always had a good answer for the liberal elite/wankers/peace activists/lefties/tossers/PC/tree-hugger/socialist toss-pots.
His single-minded hatred of all the above is sorely missed.
Thank God he will be back next week!
March 20th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
Pete.
Indeed. And even aside from that is the conundrum in warfare that Most Afghans had no idea Al Qaeda even existed, in the same way that most Russians initially knew little of Lenin, most Chinese knew little of Mao, and only some 34% of Germans ever voted for the Nazis.
March 20th, 2010 at 12:40 pm
Indeed, bring back the Red man.
Hide protests over burden on Telecom
By MARTIN KAY – The Dominion Post
Last updated 05:00 20/03/2010
ACT leader Rodney Hide has attacked Government plans to make Telecom pay the lion’s share of a splurge on rural broadband – but says he does not intend resigning over the issue.
Mr Hide, who is also Regulatory Reform Minister, branded the plans a breach of National’s own regulations policy and a “sad indictment” on the Government.
He released a strongly-worded letter to Telecommunications Minister Steven Joyce that signals one of the biggest fallouts between ACT and National since the parties agreed to govern together.
“I’m very displeased and the reason I’m displeased is not only is it poor law-making, it also sends a signal to any investors into New Zealand that their investment isn’t safe, and therefore it makes it tougher to get the sort of infrastructure and the sort of investment we need to grow the economy,” he said.
He rejected suggestions his reaction would harm ACT’s relationship with National, saying both accepted there would be differences at times.
Mr Joyce said ACT’s opposition would not stop legislation, as the Maori Party, with many rural constituents, was in favour.
This week, Mr Joyce confirmed plans to force Telecom to bear most of the cost through changes to the Telecommunications Service Obligations, which effectively regulate the company.
Telecom will pay most of the $300 million to be raised through a new levy to increase broadband cover and speed, and from July will also pay the full cost of providing phone services, at a loss, to 58,000 rural customers.
Telecom warned the moves would wipe $168 million of its pre-tax profits over three years. Its share price fell 4 cents to a record low of $2.17 when the plans were announced on Tuesday.
Another National Fail as well. Telecom should shut down their system overnight and sell the parts for what they can get. This Govt. is no better than the last when it comes to stealing shareholders rights.
What the fuck goes on in their minds. Ahhh socialism of course.
March 20th, 2010 at 1:48 pm
I miss Bedrater too, but I can imagine his response:
The dirty commie motherf….ing sh..bag jurors are narcisistic retards causing all decent reasonable people to live in fear of the disgusting Islamic c…s and coc…..ers that want to rape our little children and stone our women before dismembering us at gitmo, sorry, abu graihb, sorry some hellhole in Iran. Get a brain ar…..es, and learn to be a little bit polite and respectful like I am.
Come to think of it, I don’t miss him that much.
March 20th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
Bryla,
Genuine question:
As you say you are a Christian, and that you believe civil disobedience is acceptable in some cases where lives are placed at risk, do you also support the destruction of, say, abortion clinics because they destroy the lives of children in the womb?
March 20th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Fuck off back to OZ hemorrhoid. BTW take Achmed and Russel with you.
March 20th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
Here’s something for the peace activists to get their teeth in to.
http://afghanistan.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/18/shaming-her-in-laws-costs-19-year-old-her-nose-ears/
March 20th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
Kris K, it’s not my particular issue but sure, I’d encourage anyone to act on their conscience and accept the consequences. I’d be happy if they were nonviolent and had a plan. but even if they aren’t and don’t it’s an improvement on apathetic folk who never go past having an opinion.
Johnboy, you really are just too, too kind. I don’t deserve all this attention from you and your elk.
March 20th, 2010 at 5:56 pm
Angus (400) Says:
March 20th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
Here’s something for the peace activists to get their teeth in to.
http://afghanistan.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/18/shaming-her-in-laws-costs-19-year-old-her-nose-ears/
Angus, you’re about the 903rd right whinger to link to this and attempt to put the blamre anywhere except where it truly belongs – on a backward and barbaric people.
What do you suggest we do? Invade Afghanistan?
March 20th, 2010 at 5:57 pm
The word is ilk Bryla.
Elk is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elk
Here we call them Wapiti.