A local Jew hater

January 26th, 2012 at 2:16 pm by David Farrar

Came across this reptile from his comments on the You Tube tape. It is hard to believe, but people like this really exist. His comments on You Tube include:

charlie sheen is a jew, always has been, always will be.the only good jews a dead jew.

Actually Carlos Estevez is Catholic.

i fully agree, fuck the jews, especially that black jew they call the worlds president. THEYRE ALL LIARS…. fucking scum…

Well that is a new twist – he’s not only from Kenya, but he’s Jewish also.

GO WINSTON!!! NZ’S ONLY HONEST POLITICIAN!!!!!

So hates Obama, and loves Winston.

wow talk about a faggot cocksucking poofter yaself, maybe you should get off john keys cock you jew faggot

Not a fan of the Prime Minister it seems.

The reason I am shedding some light on this reptile, is because sunlight is the best disinfectant. Also though, I’d welcome anyone who can work out his identity, based on his Internet footprint.

Tags:

111 Responses to “A local Jew hater”

  1. EverlastingFire (286 comments) says:

    Charlie Sheen’s mother was Jewish http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/charlie-sheen-i-m-proud-164398 I believe that makes him half-jewish.

    And it’s probably just some kid who spends most of his time playing WoW.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  2. Brian Smaller (4,023 comments) says:

    Congratulations DPF – You have just given him a whole bunch more hits than he would have otherwise got.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  3. ben (2,379 comments) says:

    Horrible.

    On a Venn diagram the intersection of young or young-ish (evidence: “yaself”), internet-using, Peters voters must be small.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  4. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    Not that far removed from some of the anti-Semites you host here David.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  5. anonymouse (715 comments) says:

    charlie sheen is a jew

    Hmm, so he obviously didn’t get the memo about when our double winning warlock let rip on Chaim Levine

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  6. Joel Rowan (99 comments) says:

    The Jewish have a long and, I would argue, a proud tradition of being good with money, starting in the days when they when they were the only people allowed by their religion to handle money and give loans and credit. So, though I do not have any Jewish ancestry that I know of, I am quite glad we have a “Jew” prime minister – and one who certainly knows how money works.

    I wouldn’t worry about the conspiracy theorists who think Jews, in cahoots with Chinese investment vehicles, are taking over the world. We’ll be fine.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  7. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  8. Salacious Crumb (31 comments) says:

    Does he kiss his mother with that mouth? Oh wait, of course he does, cos’ his mums a ‘kissing’ cousin.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  9. iMP (2,384 comments) says:

    Joel, its got nothing to do with Jewish religion. Several European princes simply denied Jews access to any trades (ie they weren’t allowed to be carpenters or farmers or merchants) and so with no other options, they gathered up their resources and lent their money out, creating the industry of money lending, simply to survive.

    Greedy Euro princes went to Jews for money (the first bankers I suppose) and then often expelled them from their countries when they got heavily in debt and couldn’t repay (ala Fiddler on the Roof). So the Jews were fleeced at every turn.

    And Jews are no better with money than anyone else, its just an historic oppression that forced them to be creative to survive.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  10. Joel Rowan (99 comments) says:

    Absolutely untrue. In times and areas of Muslim domination, religious law prevented Muslim men from giving loans or finances, but they were needed in the economy.

    There was also the element you mentioned, but there was definitely the element of the various religious doctrines. Christianity forbids charging interest on a loan (which is not obeyed anymore, obviously – the reformation did away with that and went a long way to establishing modern individual capitalism), and Islam much the same. That is why the Jews became financiers of the regimes you mentioned – and yes some of them were still victim to anti-semitism.

    They’ve had centuries more practise, and it’s not just a stereotype that Jews, especially in the USA, are over-represented in financial and monetary trades.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  11. Ryan Sproull (7,116 comments) says:

    YouTube commenters are the stupidest people in the world.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  12. MBSteve (1 comment) says:

    Google tells me that someone with that online handle commented on this at Stuff.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4408798/Stolen-wrinkle-cream-for-jail-cell-sweetheart

    I’m fairly sure you have to fill in your email/name when commenting on Stuff.

    DPF, have you got any contacts at Stuff to show who he claimed to be there? It’s simpler than trying to get Youtube to release the info.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  13. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    ‘He’ is a reminder that we all have to sacrifice for freedom [of speech in this case.]

    The reaction to ‘his’ bile is evidence that a such free society will deliver the best outcomes

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  14. Rick Rowling (813 comments) says:

    Damn you Ryan Sproull, you beat me to it!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  15. Ryan Sproull (7,116 comments) says:

    Damn you Ryan Sproull, you beat me to it!

    Kapow!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  16. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I saw this thread and thought I would pop in to see if I was mentioned in dispatches…sure enough!

    Murray (8,700) Says:
    January 26th, 2012 at 2:39 pm
    Not that far removed from some of the anti-Semites Islamaphobes you host here David.

    There you go Murray, we can almost agree on something! What’s one word between sparring partners!

    Put it away (2,250) Says:
    January 26th, 2012 at 2:48 pm
    Luc Hansen?

    Say, Mr Anonymous, otherwise known as Braveheart – not!, put your money where your mouth is. Quote me posting anything remotely anti-Semitic or provide your address for service, please. (And please do not confuse criticism of the actions of the thugs in charge of Israel as examples – after all, Israel has plenty of citizen critics even within its own – undeclared – borders).

    Or will you simply prove your cowardice and continue to hide behind the veil of secrecy the internet provides those with no spine, like you.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  17. RRM (9,917 comments) says:

    Murray (8,700) Says:

    Not that far removed from some of the anti-Semites you host here David.

    Oh look, there’s Captain I-Stand-With-Israel – what a joke.

    The Israeli army could hold an organised “Garrotte a Muslim Child Day” Murray, and if anyone said anything about it on here you would be shouting “anti semite” and screaming blue murder.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  18. TM (99 comments) says:

    That’s why I never read YouTube comments. Most videos decend into abuse or offensive language within three comments.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  19. Seán (397 comments) says:

    DPF – surprised you are giving this fool the attention. Probably this is what he wants.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  20. Lance (2,654 comments) says:

    @RRM
    And the dumbest post in history award goes to RRM at 9:00pm

    What a dick

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  21. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    “I saw this thread and thought I would pop in to see if I was mentioned….”

    Classic narcissism.

    No surprises.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  22. Bed Rater (239 comments) says:

    David it’s adorable that you want to hunt down and expose the Youtube troll who dares to attack your darling John. But ultimately it’s a only a Youtube troll, probability suggests you’re ordering the identification of a bored teenager.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  23. RRM (9,917 comments) says:

    Lance –

    Search this site for the keywords “Jew” or “Israel” and see what you see.

    Then come back here, tell me that I was correct in what I said, and apologise like a well-brought-up little lad.

    I am pretty gracious about it all when people acknowledge they were wrong. Even when they have been bloody rude about it. :-)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  24. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    @RRM, Lets just dissect your accusation slightly:

    “The Israeli army could hold an organised “Garrotte a Muslim Child Day” Murray, and if anyone said anything about it on here you would be shouting “anti semite” and screaming blue murder.”

    Firstly what a disgusting suggestion to make. Not only do Muslims live as full citizens of Israel, some serve in the IDF.
    No mention that Palestinian children get treated in Israeli hospitals. Also that Hamas acknowledged the use of Human Shields and callously use schools as weapons stores.

    In fact how about the Muslim clerics that say that it’s OK to kill Israeli children, because they might one day grow up to be soldiers. Here’s just one example
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4076176,00.html

    All I ever see from you is apologist remarks for Terrorist murder and other disgusting acts. So go on, why don’t you eat your own dog food and condemn some of the actions of terrorists and apologise for your original statement.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  25. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    rrm,

    further to what TimG said, your 9pm comment last night is quite perverse, seeing how Hamas, as the PA government (at least in Gaza) think it is laudatory to stab to death 5 month old babies so long as they are Jewish, and even has a policy of paying a stipend to the man (or family of the man if he is in prison or dead) who did it; in fact, given the reality of the matter, your comment is quite sick.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  26. Ryan Sproull (7,116 comments) says:

    further to what TimG said, your 9pm comment last night is quite perverse, seeing how Hamas, as the PA government (at least in Gaza) think it is laudatory to stab to death 5 month old babies so long as they are Jewish, and even has a policy of paying a stipend to the man (or family of the man if he is in prison or dead) who did it; in fact, given the reality of the matter, your comment is quite sick.

    I’d like to see the reference on that.

    Well, I would enjoy seeing the reference on that, but I haven’t heard of it before (the stabbing babies part).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  27. Ryan Sproull (7,116 comments) says:

    Sorry, that should read:

    Well, I wouldn’t enjoy seeing a reference on that…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  28. cha (4,010 comments) says:

    Well, I wouldn’t enjoy seeing a reference on that…

    The Fogel family

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  29. Ryan Sproull (7,116 comments) says:

    Ugh. Thanks, Cha.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  30. ross (1,437 comments) says:

    F E Smith,

    I’m bemused that you draw attention to one case of murder against an Israeli family but numerous cases of Palestinians (inlcuding women and children) being murdered by Israel/Israelis is ignored. Obviously a Palestinian life is pretty much worthless as far as you’re concerned. I’d imagine you’d have an almost impossible job defending a Palestinian accused of a crime.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  31. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    ross, let’s see if you can produce evidence of the Israeli government celebrating the murder of a Palestinian family? Just one will do.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  32. ross (1,437 comments) says:

    Israel’s security forces like to use Palestinian kids as human shields. Nice.

    http://www.un.org/children/conflict/english/palestine.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  33. RRM (9,917 comments) says:

    TimG_Oz / F E Smith

    As far as I know the Israeli Army has never had an organised “Garrotte a Muslim Child” day – I just made that up to illustrate my point about lunatics here who would characterise ANY criticism of ANY Israeli actions whatsoever as “anti semitism”.

    You both seem like quite learned, smart chaps, I can’t believe I’m explaining this to you…

    TimG_Oz alone –

    All I ever see from you is apologist remarks for Terrorist murder and other disgusting acts.

    Perhaps you can quote some posts I’ve made where I’ve cheered, condoned or “apologised for” any terrorists, murderers, or acts of terrorism or murder? Just one would do.

    No you can’t can you? Because you are lying. Utter BS and lies. :-)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  34. ross (1,437 comments) says:

    Rightnow,

    Try reading the first paragraph of the article linked to above.

    “Eleven Palestinian children were killed and 360 injured (342 boys and 18 girls) in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, in incidents related to the armed conflict. Of the 360 children injured, 58 were under the age of 12; 83 per cent of the injuries occurred in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and 17 per cent in Gaza; 302 children were injured by the Israeli security forces, 40 by Israeli settlers, 11 by unexploded ordnance, and 2 by unidentified perpetrators. In addition, five children were injured by mishandling weapons and explosives, including one incident allegedly related to interfactional fighting by Palestinian armed groups. No Israeli children were killed in 2010 as a result of the conflict, but two were injured, including one as a result of a rocket from the Gaza Strip on 21 December launched by an unidentified Palestinian armed group.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  35. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    ross, try a comprehension test. FFS, I even bolded the important difference.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  36. Paulus (2,626 comments) says:

    Look at the numerical relationship in Nobel Prizes between people of the Jewish faith against those of the Muslim faith.
    No Contest.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  37. ross (1,437 comments) says:

    Rightnow,

    Did you even bother to read the article?

    Here’s another paragraph. Tell me what you think of it.

    “For the third consecutive year, the use of Palestinian children as human shields by Israeli security forces was reported, with three new cases documented in three separate incidents in the West Bank in 2010. A 16-year-old girl and a 13-year-old boy were used as human shields during house searches in two separate incidents in Nablus, and a 14-year-old boy was forced to walk in front of Israeli soldiers as a shield while stones were being thrown at them during clashes in Hebron. In the first prosecution of its kind, on 11 March 2010, two soldiers were charged with using a boy as a human shield during “Operation Cast Lead”. The soldiers were convicted by an Israeli military court on 3 October 2010 for “inappropriate behaviour” and “overstepping authority”. They were demoted from the rank of staff sergeant to sergeant and given three-month suspended prison sentences. To date, the measures taken by the Israeli security forces to prevent and punish the use of children as human shields have not reflected the gravity of such conduct.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  38. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    ross, you first – where’s your evidence that the Israeli government celebrates any deaths of Palestinians, yet alone children?

    I’m not one-eyed about the situation there ross, I am hopeful a fair solution will eventually be reached in the region.

    Unlike you I don’t believe it is all Israel’s fault. The Palestinians themselves bear much of the blame – and the Arab nations around them bear much of the rest. Israel aren’t blameless, but when Hamas use their own civilians as human shields my sympathy for them is strained.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  39. Griff (7,684 comments) says:

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/female-police-officer-disciplined-after-slapping-fogel-family-murderer-across-the-face/
    A senior investigator with the Judea and Samaria police district could not control herself when she was faced with the Fogel family murderer smiling defiantly toward her during his interrogation – and slapped him. After that, she was sent to him in order to apologize. As a result of the incident, the female police officer was convicted by police court and was severely disciplined.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  40. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    rrm,

    you didn’t have to explain it- we understood perfectly. It was just the juxtaposition of what you gave as an example with the reality of Palestinian celebration of murdering Jewish children that needed commenting upon.

    And it is far more than one Jewish child that has been murdered by Palestinians in acts of terror: the recent cross-border raid by Palestinians into Israel, dressed as Egyptian guards, also saw the murder of, from memory, a 6 year old. There are many, many more if you look.

    ross,

    you really are an objectionable person, aren’t you? The Israelis prosecuted those two soldiers. Hamas, on the other hand, uses human shields as a matter of course, and during Operation Cast Lead engaged in such practices as a tactic. Your allegation and example is petty, as it points out the speck in the Israeli eye whilst ignoring the beam in the Palestinian’s eye.

    And, please tell me, when was the last time an Israeli broke into the home of a Palestinian family and slaughthered them in their sleep, and then was hailed as a hero by the Israeli government?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  41. Ryan Sproull (7,116 comments) says:

    And it is far more than one Jewish child that has been murdered by Palestinians in acts of terror: the recent cross-border raid by Palestinians into Israel, dressed as Egyptian guards, also saw the murder of, from memory, a 6 year old. There are many, many more if you look.

    You can see them here. Two Israeli children killed last year, one by a rocket, one by a car crash caused by stones thrown by Palestinians. Also 15 Palestinian children, mostly by IDF shelling, gunfire and drone attacks. One shot by Israeli settlers.

    No child deaths so far this year, thank God.

    http://rememberthesechildren.org/remember2011.html

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  42. KiwiGreg (3,255 comments) says:

    “No child deaths so far this year, thank God.”

    Will you blame or curse this “God” when there are?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  43. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    ryan,

     that cannot be correct- 3 Israeli children died in one incident in March 2011, which doesn’t appear on that list.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  44. ross (1,437 comments) says:

    “where’s your evidence that the Israeli government celebrates any deaths of Palestinians”

    You’re right, the Israeli government merely sanctions the killing of Palestinians…and there are so many such killings they’d be celebrating more often than not.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  45. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    F E Smith, the Remember These Children website can be described as impartial depending on who you ask.
    It is run by the American Educational Trust, who publish the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Educational_Trust
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Report_on_Middle_East_Affairs

    “Because of AET’s activities to influence the political process, donations to the AET are not tax deductible.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  46. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    Couldn’t find anything then ross? Not surprised, better luck next time little boy.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  47. Ryan Sproull (7,116 comments) says:

    F E Smith,

    Just emailed them asking about the omission/oversight.

    KiwiGreg,

    “Thank God” is an expression of relief or appreciation for something. “Ah fuck” would be the appropriate expression in the situation you describe.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  48. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    RRM,

    Every time there is an Israel post, before anyone even tries to write a comment you are saying that all the answers will be calling anti-semites, regards of any other logic that we may post. People can demonise Israel with accusations like baby-garotting Muslim babies as you have done, and apparently we can’t correct or refute them without you building this straw man. Here’s an example where DPF pulls you up for this kind of trolling http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/07/mossad_and_the_earthquake.html#comment-854214

    On the other side, in the face of crimes as vile as you choose to use for your “example”, you are completely unable to criticise the PA or Hamas.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  49. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    ross,

    the civilian deaths that occur during IDF operations in Gaza are a direct result of Hamas and related terror groups using family homes, hospitals and schools as bases for their operations. The fact is that the terror operatives wilfully place children in danger by advancing their schemes in places were children are present. It is a most appalling practice and one that Hamas et al knowingly, callously and cruelly engage in, in full knowledge that people like you will accuse Israel of crimes when ‘innocent’ civilians become casualties.

    The IDF never ‘sanctions’ the killing of children. You have no evidence of whatsoever. Children are sometimes collateral casualties of IDF actions to kill terrorists, and that is always regrettable. But, as far as I am aware, the IDF never sets out to specifically kill children, unlike Hamas and other terror groups.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  50. Ryan Sproull (7,116 comments) says:

    F E Smith,

    Do you consider child settlers in illegal Israeli settlements (which are often the target of Palestinian terrorist rocket fire) to be using human shields?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  51. Scott Chris (6,135 comments) says:

    F E Smith says:- “The fact is that the terror operatives wilfully place children in danger by advancing their schemes in places were children are present.”

    Oh, so that makes it okay to shoot the shield does it?

    You don’t seem to place much value on Palestinian hostages. Nor do the Israelis.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  52. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    IDF to give better warnings before attacks
    Over 200,000 phone calls were made during Operation Cast Lead warning Gazan civilians of Israeli airstrikes near their homes. Military decides to take procedure one step further, giving more accurate, more detailed warnings including escape routs for future attacks

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3753851,00.html

    What can you say in defence of the Palestinians Scotty? They make any calls to Israeli civilians warning them of rocket attacks?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  53. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    Ryan “Do you consider child settlers in illegal Israeli settlements (which are often the target of Palestinian terrorist rocket fire) to be using human shields?”

    To consider that to be the case you’d have to have reason to believe that those who launch the rockets wouldn’t consider children to be a legitimate target. Unfortunately all evidence we’ve seen leads us to a contrary view.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  54. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    your 2.28pm makes no sense- are the child settlers using human shields? Or are you asking if they are being used as human shields? In which case my answer is that they are not.

    And whether or not the settlements are illegal (which I dispute), there is no justification whatsoever for the rocket fire from Hamas.

    Scott Chris,

    your question is disingenuous. The civilians who become collateral damage in IDF operations against Hamas et al are, to my knowledge, never shot. The IDF use guided missiles to hit their targets, which is why you get the collateral casualties. By asking the question in the way you have you posit a situation that is not the norm, rather than a possible rare exception.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  55. Lance (2,654 comments) says:

    @RRM
    As others have pointed out I was calling you a DICK !!!!!! because of the idiotic grotesque strawman “Garrotte a Muslim Child Day”

    In fact I think that is an insult to all dicks everywhere to have you up at that level.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  56. Ryan Sproull (7,116 comments) says:

    To consider that to be the case you’d have to have reason to believe that those who launch the rockets wouldn’t consider children to be a legitimate target. Unfortunately all evidence we’ve seen leads us to a contrary view.

    Depends. It would certainly do their brand some good if they were able to attack the invading settlers without risking the lives of children. They don’t have to care about the lives of Israeli children to prefer not to be seen as child-targeters. (I’m not saying that they don’t have qualms about risking Israeli children’s lives – I don’t really know either way.)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  57. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    It would certainly do their brand some good if they were able to attack the invading settlers

    What possible reason could ever be given to justify that comment? There is nothing in international law that allows such behaviour from anybody.  What Hamas et al are engaging in is terrorism (well, more accurately it is murder), but you appear to be ok with that so long as they are avoiding children?

    Even the words ‘invading settlers’ is thoroughly wrong.  The land was captured by Israel from Jordan.  There was no ‘invasion’ by the settlers whatsoever.

    I’m not saying that they don’t have qualms about risking Israeli children’s lives

    They don’t, for Hamas, the taking of any Jewish life is a good thing.  They celebrate it and give the perpetrators a stipend.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  58. Rat (383 comments) says:

    I say stop this rubbish, and lets crack onto the Catholics

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  59. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    Ryan,

    Rather than attack settlers at all, maybe they could just stop the violence and sit down at the negotiating table for the first time in 3 years?

    It sounds like you actually think violence against adult settlers is OK. It’s not.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  60. Ryan Sproull (7,116 comments) says:

    What possible reason could ever be given to justify that comment? There is nothing in international law that allows such behaviour from anybody. What Hamas et al are engaging in is terrorism (well, more accurately it is murder), but you appear to be ok with that so long as they are avoiding children?

    I deplore all violence. General world opinion, however, is more opposed to fighting that harms children than fighting that does not. Israeli settlers are essentially invaders, and they come under attack. Palestinian militants attack them. The Israeli settlers bring children, and those Palestinian militants change from people who are attacking aggressors to people who are attacking babies. It can act as a disincentive, if not for moral reasons, then for pragmatic “winning support for the cause” purposes. Whether or not people in the international community see the Israeli settlers as invaders, they all see child-killers as child-killers.

    My point is that the IDF, similarly, would prefer it if there weren’t children near Palestinian militants, if not for moral reasons, then for pragmatic “winning support for the cause” purposes. Killing babies is bad PR for anyone.

    Even the words ‘invading settlers’ is thoroughly wrong. The land was captured by Israel from Jordan. There was no ‘invasion’ by the settlers whatsoever.

    The land is designated under international law for Palestinian people, and Palestinians were forcibly evicted from their own farms and homes to make way for fortified Israeli settlements. It’s pretty invasive, and the illegality is not a matter of contention.

    They don’t, for Hamas, the taking of any Jewish life is a good thing. They celebrate it and give the perpetrators a stipend.

    Hamas consists of quite a few people, and I’m sure they don’t all have identical opinions. But even if they are uniformly consumed with hatred for Israeli children, they’ll never achieve their political aspirations without some kind of sympathy for the cause from the international community, and they’ll never get that while they offer incentives for the murder of children. They may not have cottoned on to that fact, however.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  61. Ryan Sproull (7,116 comments) says:

    Rather than attack settlers at all, maybe they could just stop the violence and sit down at the negotiating table for the first time in 3 years?

    It sounds like you actually think violence against adult settlers is OK. It’s not.

    I’m not saying it’s okay. I’m saying that violence against adults who are living on land that has been taken by force is a smaller pill to swallow for public opinion than violence against innocent children. And just as I’m certain that there are plenty of IDF soldiers who would rather kill Palestinian militants than Palestinian children, I am certain there are plenty of Palestinian militants who would rather kill adult settlers than children.

    My point is that the children on both sides can be seen as human shields. “If you attack us, you will risk harming children.”

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  62. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    ryan,

    so you are ok with the murder of innocent civilians if they happen to live in a disputed territory?  The settlers are not aggressors under any definition of international law.  Your reasoning is completely flawed in that area. 

    So are you ok with the Argentinians launching rockets into the Falklands?  After all, the civilians in the Falklands, according to your definition, qualify as invaders.

    Hamas consists of quite a few people, and I’m sure they don’t all have identical opinions.

    Oh please, they have a charter, so we do know what they think.

      they’ll never achieve their political aspirations without some kind of sympathy for the cause from the international community

    They don’t care about sympathy from the international community, they have people like you, ross, rrm and Luc Hansen who are more than happy to support them in their murderous ways.

    And, just to expand this a bit, it isn’t just Hamas, but the PA, so needs to include both Fatah and Hamas.

    You can moralise all you want, justifying the murder of civilians by calling them invaders, saying murder is ok so long as the victims are not children, but the fact is that the Palestinians don’t care what you think, they just want to get rid of the Jews.

    EDIT: ryan,

    from whom was the land taken by force, and when?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  63. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    ryan,

    the children on both sides can be seen as human shields

    That is just plain silly.  The settlers in the disputed territories are civilians living in towns.  They go about their daily lives.  They have children who live with them because they are families.

    To describe that as using children as human shields is to give the term a completely new meaning.  Indeed, it is just wrong to make the assertion that you did.

     The terrorists, on the other hand, carry out their operations, make their plans, and store their weapons and supplies,  in places were there are children every day.  In homes, in schools, in hospitals. 

    You are comparing apples with oranges and saying they are the same thing.

    In the meantime you are apologising for the murder of civilians.  And not just civilians in disputed territories.  The terrorists launch their rockets and mortars into undisputed Israeli territory as much as into disputed territory.  So your position grows even weaker.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  64. Ryan Sproull (7,116 comments) says:

    so you are ok with the murder of innocent civilians if they happen to live in a disputed territory? The settlers are not aggressors under any definition of international law. Your reasoning is completely flawed in that area.

    I said above that I deplore all violence. I should have been clear: that includes killing.

    The settlers certainly aren’t soldiers, but they can certainly be seen as aggressors outside of a strict legal definition. You’re living on your farm, then soldiers come and force you out, then your farm gets bulldozed, a fortified settlement is built on the land, and settlers move in. Wouldn’t you see the settlers as aggressors?

    So are you ok with the Argentinians launching rockets into the Falklands? After all, the civilians in the Falklands, according to your definition, qualify as invaders.

    I said above that I deplore all violence. I should have been clear: that includes launching rockets at people.

    they’ll never achieve their political aspirations without some kind of sympathy for the cause from the international community

    They don’t care about sympathy from the international community, they have people like you, ross, rrm and Luc Hansen who are more than happy to support them in their murderous ways.

    You’re reading things into my words that I have not said, or you’re confusing my posts with someone else’s. I am not supporting any murderous ways. I’m pointing out the parallels between Palestinian children and Israeli settler children being killed in violence. You blame Palestinian militants for being situated close enough to Palestinian children that IDF actions kill Palestinian children. But you don’t seem to blame Israeli settlers for being situated close enough to Israeli settler children that Palestinian terrorist attacks kill Israeli settler children.

    Inconsistency is my target here, not Israel.

    You can moralise all you want, justifying the murder of civilians by calling them invaders, saying murder is ok so long as the victims are not children, but the fact is that the Palestinians don’t care what you think, they just want to get rid of the Jews.

    I didn’t moralise, or justify murder of civilians, I didn’t say murder is okay. Please stick to addressing things I say, rather than things you imagine I say.

    from whom was the land taken by force, and when?

    Families have been forced out of their homes by the IDF, over the last 40 years, to make way for Israeli settlements. I’m not talking about land taken in the wars. Those settlements often become targets of Palestinian militants.

    Note that this is a separate issue from rockets being fired into Israeli towns, such as Sderot. Those cases are much clearer instances of terrorism, with far fewer people considering them to be responses to aggression (except for those people who claim Israel’s very existence is an aggression, which is not very common internationally).

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  65. Ryan Sproull (7,116 comments) says:

    To describe that as using children as human shields is to give the term a completely new meaning. Indeed, it is just wrong to make the assertion that you did.

    The terrorists, on the other hand, carry out their operations, make their plans, and store their weapons and supplies, in places were there are children every day. In homes, in schools, in hospitals.

    I’m afraid you’ve finally addressed what I’m actually saying just as I’m leaving. You may well be right on this (finally relevant) point – will respond to it later. Have a good evening, rain aside.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  66. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    Ryan says: “Israeli settlers are essentially invaders….. ”

    If you are talking about the inhabitants of the sovereign state of Israel, than that comment is clearly bollocks.

    Like it or lump it, Israel is there to stay. And if someone keeps lobbing ordnance over their border, they can expect retaliation. If Hamas stops the terrorist attacks, then there will be no need for retaliation. But if Hamas keeps up its campaign of terrorism against the sovereign state of Israel, then they shouldn’t bleat when it all turns to tears for them.

    Hamas are merely a bunch of terrorists. Trying to somehow legitimise their acts of terrorism, is nothing but a disgrace.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  67. Scott Chris (6,135 comments) says:

    RightNow says:- “They make any calls to Israeli civilians warning them of rocket attacks?”

    ~Oh how civil of the Israelis to issue warnings~.

    They’re 6 to 1 ahead on the official body count score, so issuing warnings would appear to be irrelevant.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    F E Smith says:- “The civilians who become collateral damage in IDF operations against Hamas et al are, to my knowledge, never shot.”

    What difference does it make? A stray bullet…. A guided missile….A falling wombat. They’re dead.

    And they die because of Israel’s callous regard for Palestinian civilian lives, and yet they cry foul when Hamas play the same dirty game. As do their supporters. Such fucking hypocrisy.

    I’m sure that if Hamas had the means to take a military eye for a military eye instead of this current barbaric and one sided arrangement, they’d leap at the chance.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  68. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    Scott – Israel could annihilate Hamas/Palestine tomorrow. They don’t. They call ahead to let civilians know to get out of the way.

    If Hamas could annihilate Israel tomorrow they would. End of story. Enough of bleating about asymmetric body count “scores”.

    P.S your use of the term ‘score’ shows you’re a dim witted needle dick.
    Run away like ross did, little boy.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  69. Ryan Sproull (7,116 comments) says:

    Elaycee,

    I’m only talking about the settlements. The attacks on towns inside Israel are the very definition of terrorism.

    (on phone)

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  70. Ryan Sproull (7,116 comments) says:

    By which I mean the civilians there cannot be seen as aggressors in the same way as settlers.

    Feel like Stephen Hawking posting with this damn phone. My kingdom for a keyboard.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  71. Nostalgia-NZ (5,195 comments) says:

    F E Smith 4.23

    You make this fair acknowledgement..

    ‘The settlers in the disputed territories are civilians living in towns.’

    But I don’t see how the rest of things fall into place in any final way. Many people see Gaza as a concentration camp as well as recognising the ‘disputed territories.’ The arguments that follow seem to want to disengage from those facts and argue about the validity of various acts of violence, warfare and many other discriptions given by the opposing sides in the tit for tat conflict things for which there will never be an answer until the issue of ‘disputed territories’ and siege of Gaza is settled.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  72. Scott Chris (6,135 comments) says:

    RightNow says:- “P.S your use of the term ‘score’ shows you’re a dim witted needle dick.”

    Lol. ~What a powerful argument~

    Difference between you and me is I see things for what they are. You see them in terms of your political outlook.

    Fool.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  73. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    nostalgia,

    Many people see Gaza as a concentration camp

    It isn’t.  It was Egyptian for a long time, then Israeli, then handed over to the PA.  Have a look at what a concentration camp is and you will see there is such an enormous differnence between Gaza and a concentration camp that anybody who labels Gaza a concentration camp is dishonest.

    Don’t forget, also, that Gaza shares a border with Egypt, one that the Egyptians kept closed for many years.  Israel isn’t the only party involved in that issue.

    There is a difference between Israel and the terrorists.  The IDF pursue known terrorists only, do not fire indiscriminately and document their actions.  The terrorists aim to kill random civilians, are indiscriminate about who they kill, and celebrate the murders that they carry out.  Then the PA gives them a monthly paycheck for it.

     Anybody who cannot see the difference is either decieved or wilfully blind.

    Scott Chris,

    a bullet aimed at a child by a soldier, even one being used as a human shield, is an intentional and avoidable thing.  When the IDF uses a missile to attack a terrorist meeting place at which a child is present, it does not have the ability to distinguish between terrorist and child.  There is a huge difference in the intent. 

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  74. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    Scott: “Difference between you and me is I see things for what they are. You see them in terms of your political outlook.”

    This is how it is Scotty
    The Covenant
    of the
    Islamic Resistance Movement

    18 August 1988
    “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).”
    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

    My view is that avoiding casualties should be paramount and a negotiated peace agreement is the best approach.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  75. Scott Chris (6,135 comments) says:

    F E Smith

    The main difference between a missile and a bullet is its calibre. (Yes a missile explodes, but so do some bullets) You take aim, you fire.

    And as far as I’m concerned, “intent” can be analysed retrospectively and extrapolated from, so that all future actions are conducted with foreknowledge of any given action’s actual effect.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  76. Nostalgia-NZ (5,195 comments) says:

    F E Smith.

    I can’t judge the ‘enormous difference’ between Gaza and a concentration camp, and I don’t think that I’m entitled to because I don’t live there. I appreciate that Israel isn’t the only party involved in the issue of borders, but an issue it remains. As I wrote earlier who fights the good fight and who doesn’t is wide of the reality you’ve acknowledged about ‘disputed territories’ and a view that Gaza is under seige.
    Unfortunately, this thread started with a less than desirable title. There remains abroad however, a misconception that because a nation, or aspiring nation, or movement of some sort, uses stones and bombs against a greater power, even indiscriminately killing its own people or those of its enemy, some people choose to amplify those acts in a way that doesn’t acknowledge that the unarmed (or largely so) dis-spirited, without land, an army, air force and so on – somehow fight a dirty fight for being unable to fight a traditional ‘good’ war.
    That’s where it begins to go around F E Smith and we talk about documented acts of violence, warnings of bombings, as opposed to random acts, purposely it seems – to ignore the disputed territories and siege or a way of settling them.
    I can’t add much more to this, apart from the sentiment, shared by many, that a stronger force should always use its power for good or it is an oppressor.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  77. RRM (9,917 comments) says:

    TimG_Oz –

    Is that your way of saying you must have been lying because no, you actually CAN’T find any examples of me supporting terrorists, or apologising for terrorists?

    I didn’t think you would…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  78. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    Nostalgia – much as I agree with that sentiment I have two reservations. First Israel wasn’t always the stronger force and has IMO survived through smarts defending itself originally against the Arab League who wouldn’t accept the UN’s plan. In fact I’d guess it’s usually Israel ready to accept the UN’s proposals. For which they get attacked with rockets to convince them to cede more. I may be wrong on this so happy to be corrected – that all the land Israel currently occupy is land they’ve won in wars?

    Second – I don’t really believe Israel is being unreasonable given that they are defending against someone who believes the destruction of Israel is a mission from god.

    I once got into a fight with a guy who seemed intent on killing me. I got him into a scissor lock position where I could have squeezed his neck, and tried to negotiate a truce, but he just kept struggling and telling me he was going to kill me.
    In the end I had to kill him. It’s survival.

    Actually I eventually let him out of it and he spent 20 minutes chasing me around the neighbourhood until he tired.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  79. ross (1,437 comments) says:

    “Oh please, they have a charter, so we do know what they think.”

    Oh please is right…the charter is dated 1988.I’m surprised you don’t call Germans a bunch of Nazis.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  80. ross (1,437 comments) says:

    Fast forward to today and Hamas looks set to embrace non-violent resistance. I wonder if Israel will renounce violence against Palestinians.

    http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/12/16/peter-goodspeed-hamas-set-to-reject-violence-report/

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  81. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    RRM. Every Israel thread there is (including this one), you make some biased comment as well as your BS comment that that all criticism of Israel is “anti-semitic”. That is total BS on your behalf.

    The quip about slitting throats was pretty off the mark, given the evidence to show it happening in the other way. So much so that

    You’ve never denounced the terrorists either, especially this thread, so that is a clear double standard on your behalf. So your only posts are merely double standards, false accusations against Israel, and building a straw man against rational arguments. So I conclude that you are an apologist for terrorists, by your silence, false arguments and double standards.

    If you thought that I was accusing you of praising terrorists, then I apologise. Maybe somewhere amongst your 4049 crappy messages there is probably some justification, but I can’t be arsed wasting my time looking for it.

    If you really want to prove me wrong then maybe you can comment on the disgusting attack on the Fogels.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  82. Tautaioleua (304 comments) says:

    I tend to ignore youtube comments altogether. They’re usually bombarded with US teens talking up time travel with “like if your playing this in 1830.”

    The distinction between “your” and “you’re” is almost extinct in younger circles.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  83. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    ross. What are you smoking??

    This is from December 2011

    http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=472&fld_id=474&doc_id=6020

    In his speech, Haniyeh also promised that Hamas will “lead Intifada after Intifada until we liberate Palestine – all of Palestine, Allah willing. Allah Akbar and praise Allah.”

    Definitely not non-violent resistance. Calling to kill people in the name of God. Pretty vile stuff.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  84. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    Ross,

    And the US Constitution is from 1782 (date?) but seems to still be applied. How does that work, I wonder?

    It is a charter, you fool, a founding document that remains valid until repealed or repudiated.

    Nostalgia,

    Gaza is not under siege.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  85. Nostalgia-NZ (5,195 comments) says:

    Right Now.

    ‘Actually I eventually let him out of it and he spent 20 minutes chasing me around the neighbourhood until he tired’

    Well, you won anyway and I trust it was by a good distance and that you stopped and gave him the fingers at the last hurdled he failed to clear.

    Of course you are right that Israel wasn’t always the stronger and also have endured a grief that remains with the world today.

    As to your second point, I believe every man or woman has the right to believe ‘in their mission from God.’ Also of their right to make peace and having the courage to do so. Metaphors litter intention but as life shows us so does compromise.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  86. fatnuts (160 comments) says:

    Elaycee, re “If you are talking about the inhabitants of the sovereign state of Israel, than that comment is clearly bollocks.”

    “Settlers” doesn’t refer to those in Israel proper, but those occupying “area c” on the wrong side of the border. There is no other country in the world that recognises their occupation as legal. One of the reasons they were removed from Gaza, and longer ago, the Sinai.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  87. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    Nostalgia – but it isn’t unreasonable to seek a compromise that includes the right not be wiped off the face of the earth.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  88. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    Scott Chris: “Fool.”

    Uh, that hurts coming from the only guy I’ve seen on KB announcing they’ll suck dick for money.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  89. Nostalgia-NZ (5,195 comments) says:

    RightNow 8.05

    Yes, nor to accept the purpose of ancient language.

    8.07

    Do you need to.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  90. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    @fatnuts: Ryan clarified his earlier comment at 5.18pm.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  91. Scott Chris (6,135 comments) says:

    Heh, proves my point Rightnow. I see things for what they are. You can’t see past your conditioning like the rest of the sheep.
    It’s just someone else’s dick. What are you so scared of that no amount of money would induce you to suck it?

    Like I said.

    Fool.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  92. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    They’re called principles scotty, you might have to google them.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  93. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    “Hamas looks set to embrace non-violent resistance…..”

    Almost as good as ross’ assertion that the wharfies didn’t really earn (on average) $91,400 per annum for the 2011 year.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  94. RRM (9,917 comments) says:

    TimG_Oz –

    It’s not bias when there really ARE lunatics who pipe up and ruin every discussion with “stop being so anti-semitic, you dirty anti-semites!”

    The equation of criticising Israel with anti-semitism is lunacy in this thread, just as it is lunacy in every other thread. I point it out every time I see it, in the hope that the lunacy won’t start to take over.

    Please don’t confuse me with people like Ross and yourself who want to debate the tit-for-tat matters of which side kills the most babies, is more evil, etc…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  95. Scott Chris (6,135 comments) says:

    A principle based on what premise? Where is the harm?

    Like I said.

    Fool.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  96. TimG_Oz (862 comments) says:

    OK RRM .. signing off now.

    It is a pity this thread has been threadjacked, although I am sure that started at 9:00 pm last night.

    I have said this many times, and I’ll say it again. It is not anti semitic to criticise Israel, and it is vile to say so.
    However, I subscribe to the Natan Sharansky 3 D Test: http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-sharansky-f04.htm

    If an argument uses Double Standards, Demonisation and Delegitimisation, then the core root is hate for a Jewish State.

    Please direct any responses to Sunday’s GD. See you then

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  97. fatnuts (160 comments) says:

    Rightnow: “In fact I’d guess it’s usually Israel ready to accept the UN’s proposals.”

    These UN proposals include the right of return of refugees, return of the border to the green line and the non recognition on Israel’s stance on Jerusalem. We can probbly assume they will never accept those.

    Also, do you include settling civilians populations on the other side of the border as ‘reasonable defence’ ?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  98. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    I heard you scotty, still hurts, uh.

    fatnuts – a settlement is bound to involve compromise, but if the two sides can’t agree a position who should arbitrate and how should they decide?

    I’ll get back to you on that last question – I’m running late for something.

    still hurting scotty. uh!

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  99. fatnuts (160 comments) says:

    Lack of ‘compromise’ is at the root of the problem. Neither party would ever cede their claim to Jerusalem..

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  100. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Some interesting points scoring while I’ve been busy, I see.

    Let me start this time by something I should have said earlier – I share DPF’s disgust with the comments of the internet creep. I do wonder if DPF would have bothered posting it here for discussion if the comments had been about Muslims (not because he didn’t find it equally repugnant, I’m sure he would, but I doubt it would occur to him to pass it on), and if he did, I also doubt it would have aroused the same level of ire. Rather, I suspect, most comments would have been of approval.

    But, of course, this thread has now degenerated into the usual Jews vs Arabs framework so beloved by extremists on both sides. The fact is that although it is human nature to personalise such disputes, this conflict is purely and simply and always about possession of land, not an ethno-religious clash.

    Palestinians, as represented by both Fatah and Hamas, and Palestinian opinion polling, have accepted settlement on the basis of United Nations General Assembly resolution 242 (UNGA 242). Israel rejects this settlement, not so much by its words – even Bibi grudgingly accepts the possibility of a cantonised, emasculated Palestinian state, for public consumption, at least – but by its actions in continuing to expand its colonies in the West Bank.

    Those are the facts.

    We can all argue until the cows come home about historical rights and wrongs, and both sides have their myths, but this is the basis of settlement, today, accepted by all except Israel.

    Even though the US, consistently, and Australia, recently, bizarrely, vote against the annual reaffirmation of UNGA 242 (along with, from memory, the bullied and the bribed, Palau and the Marshall Islands), the official policy of both nations is to support settlement on the basis of 242.

    The US prevents such a settlement due to an ingrained imperialist mindset that has been a constant of the country since its founding, and, worse, a totally misguided view of what is in it’s best interest. Australia just sucks up to the US – starstruck Julia would suck Obama’s cock if she had half a chance.

    Now addressing a couple or so of specific points:

    fatnuts (37) Says:
    January 27th, 2012 at 9:13 pm

    Lack of ‘compromise’ is at the root of the problem. Neither party would ever cede their claim to Jerusalem.

    This is just another myth promoted by uninformed people. The Palestinian claim is for East Jerusalem as their capital. Only Israel claims all of Jerusalem. And Palestinians have agreed to concede over 80 of their original territory. Just how much compromise do you expect?

    F E Smith (1,559) Says:
    January 27th, 2012 at 7:48 pm

    Gaza is not under seige

    Well, F. E., what is a seige?

    ,blockquote>Siege – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A siege is a military blockade of a city or fortress with the intent of conquering by attrition or assault.

    Do you seriously argue that Gaza is not under a military blockade? Even Israel calls it a military blockade, and enforces it with, at times, lethal force, and claims it is legal under international law. Why do you think Israel was so happy with the Palmer Report?

    And for the pedants, to conquer:

    conquer – definition of conquer by the Free Online Dictionary …

    v. con·quered, con·quer·ing, con·quers. v.tr. 1. To defeat or subdue by force, especially by force of arms….

    (emphasis added).

    Next:

    F E Smith (1,559) Says:
    January 27th, 2012 at 5:54 pm

    nostalgia,

    Many people see Gaza as a concentration camp

    It isn’t. It was Egyptian for a long time, then Israeli, then handed over to the PA. Have a look at what a concentration camp is and you will see there is such an enormous differnence between Gaza and a concentration camp that anybody who labels Gaza a concentration camp is dishonest.

    Don’t forget, also, that Gaza shares a border with Egypt, one that the Egyptians kept closed for many years.

    This is a great example of what I call the Monckton Method of argumentation – start with an untruth and build upon it with more lies and distortions, confusing the audience with the volume of misinformation.

    Let’s start with this:

    The term concentration camp refers to a camp in which people are detained or confined, usually under harsh conditions and without regard to legal norms of arrest and imprisonment that are acceptable in a constitutional democracy.

    This definition kindly provided by http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005263 (United States Holocaust Memorial Museum).

    My view is that any perceived difference between this definition and the facts on ground is just semantics.

    Why do you say Gaza was Egyptian for a long time? Gaza was occupied until WWI by the Ottoman Empire since about 1500 AD, except for a brief period of 8 years from 1832, when Egypt invaded but was repulsed in 1840. And Egypt occupied, but never annexed, Gaza between 1948 and 1967.

    Hardly a long time, even for a lawyer.

    And “handed over to the PA” is yet another distortion.

    Ariel Sharon decided that it was time to unilaterally withdraw from Gaza for a number reasons: the demographic problem if Israel was eventually forced by the international community to absorb Gaza; the wish to concentrate (no pun intended) on expansion of the fertile and water rich West Bank colonies; and the removal of Israel’s settlers gave the IDF a free hand, a shooting gallery, so to speak, which it avails itself of at regular opportunities. In addition, it gave Sharon the mantle of a peacemaker when, in fact, his intent was the opposite.

    There was no “handing over” ceremony, you may remember, and the reality is that the PA was humiliated by the unilateral withdrawal because the credit in the occupied territories (misguidedly) went to Hamas.

    Finally, Egypt did keep its borders with Gaza closed since the imposition of the blockade because it was, perhaps still is, we shall see, a vassal state of the United States and Israel. The Western supported dictator, Mubarak, went where the money was. Public sympathy within Egypt lies with Palestinians, but, as with the other Arab nations, the onus for resolving the conflict is placed upon those who caused it in the first place, the Western powers.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  101. ross (1,437 comments) says:

    “It is a charter, you fool, a founding document that remains valid until repealed or repudiated.”

    You hear what you want to hear and see what you want to see. You have always been an apologist for Israel’s crimes but you don’t have the moral courage to admit it.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  102. ross (1,437 comments) says:

    Israel continues to commit crimes against humanity. I find it curious that a lawyer can make excuses for, or ignore, such crimes.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7774988.stm

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  103. fatnuts (160 comments) says:

    Luc, “This is just another myth promoted by uninformed people. The Palestinian claim is for East Jerusalem as their capital. Only Israel claims all of Jerusalem. And Palestinians have agreed to concede over 80 of their original territory. Just how much compromise do you expect?”

    I have no expectations. It’s not my war. I can relate to you Luc that the current infada kicked off when Barak just took a walk on the temple mount. So it very much is about Jerusalem. I was living in Ramallah at the time, and the tension in the air was escalating. This was due to increased land confiscation occuring around Jerusalem, obviously designed to circle the city. At the same time we were watching the pronouncements of the ‘gifting’ of and back to Palestine. The Israeli media machine really is remarkable.

    Most of what we see in the media is an unfortunate sideshow.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  104. Manolo (13,749 comments) says:

    Yes, ross. Now go back to report to your vile Islamic masters.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  105. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    “….start with an untruth and build upon it with more lies and distortions, confusing the audience with the volume of misinformation.”

    Luc sums up his own tactics rather well.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  106. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    So, what did we decide then: Jews, good or bad?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  107. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Elaycee:

    Call me out, my friend. Point to an untruth. Shame me. Go on. What’s your name again?

    fatnuts:

    you may have been living in Ramallah but you have some facts seriously wrong. The second intifada began when Sharon took his infamous walk. That intifada has long ceased, after much Palestinian blood was spilled.

    And it was not “just a walk,” It was carefully planned, with a massive security detail to ensure his security. I have no problems with that, by the way, I’m sure it was necessary for his protection, but it’s surely an indication that the walk was symbolic of something Palestinians would object to. In other words it was a deliberately provocative act for base political purposes – oh, hang on, DPF says only left wing parties do that!

    ross:

    I agree that I find the views of this lawyer stunningly ignorant. He is as bad as the worst Israel supporter on this most Islamophobic of blogs.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  108. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    Luc’s latest: “Elaycee: Call me out, my friend. Point to an untruth. Shame me. Go on… ”

    If you insist. From your own linked propaganda: “…the credibility of Hamas, a legitimate resistance organisation to Israel’s belligerent occupation of what is left of Palestinian land….”

    Hamas is a terrorist organisation. The European Union, the US, Canada, Israel and Japan already classify Hamas as a terrorist organization so your claim of legitimacy is bollocks. And yet you keep trying to perpetuate the myth that Hamas is something other than a bunch of armed thugs who regularly lob ordnance at Israeli citizens in an effort to incite retaliation from the sovereign state of Israel. One day, Israel will most likely decide ‘enough is enough’ and when they finally deliver summary justice to Hamas, I’m sure you will be amongst the first to bleat long and hard, but whilst you’re doing that, remember that I’ll be amongst the majority to applaud and raise my glass.

    Luc, your very entry into this discussion reeked of total narcissism: “I saw this thread and thought I would pop in to see if I was mentioned….” WTF? Your narcissism is akin to that of Penny Bright – both craving for attention, full of hiss and wind but short on facts. Anyone who dares to have a different view to yours, is promptly called a ‘mad hatter’ etc and they are threatened with service. Actually, perhaps you should look in a mirror first – but of course, you come from the school that thinks if you don’t like it, then somehow it must be wrong. I call bollocks on that too, Luc. Total bollocks.

    But don’t bother coming back to me with more Hamas propaganda – I don’t subscribe to your bullshit. Especially when (your own words best describe it) you: “…start with an untruth and build upon it with more lies and distortions, confusing the audience with the volume of misinformation.”

    Oh, and Luc – you are most certainly not ‘my friend’ – my friends are chosen and valued. You are neither.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  109. mikenmild (11,247 comments) says:

    So, the only point of factual dispute between Elaycee and Luc is that Luc says Hamas is a ‘legitimate resistance organisation’ and Elaycee says Hamas is ‘a terrorist organisation’. Hmm…

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  110. Elaycee (4,392 comments) says:

    Ah milkmilo – comprehension still not a good point for you, huh?

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote
  111. F E Smith (3,305 comments) says:

    ross,

    what has my profession got to do with anything? Or is it that you just cannot attack me any other way, so resort to ad hom attacks?

    luc,

    you are a dissembler, pure and simple. You try to appear as if you are going off definitions, but then you ignore those same definitions in the points you try to make.

    So, again, Gaza is not a concentration camp, and it is not under siege. And perhaps if Hamas did not engage in arms smuggling then there would not be a need for a blockade. But there you go.

    And I take that attempted insult re being as bad as the worst Israel supporter as compliment, so cheers.

    Vote: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 You need to be logged in to vote