Pakeha urged to be more generous
February 6th, 2012 at 9:38 am by David FarrarJohn Hartevelt at Stuff reports:
Race Relations Commissioner Joris de Bres criticised those Pakeha who still resisted moves to give “special treatment” to disadvantaged Maori, thousands of whom suffered inequality.
“I still have a sense that there is a lack of generosity in some Pakeha attitudes to Maori and there is a lack of will to see measures taken that will help to remove that disadvantage and there is a lack of understanding of this notion that it is actually fair to deal specifically with people who are suffering unfairness.”
Mr de Bres said he received a “continuing thread of correspondence” against “anything that could be deemed to be a special measure or something that applies particularly to Maori or Pacific people”.
“Every time the issue comes up … then you start to get a level of resistance and resentment and objection.
“I understand where people are coming from when they object to it. All you can really do is continue to have the conversation because, unless you do something about it, the outcomes for everybody are going to be worse in the end.”
In a forthcoming report, Mr de Bres said he would note that 41 per cent of school children in Auckland and Northland were Pakeha. That showed that, if racial inequalities were not addressed, it would lead to negative social outcomes for everyone.
I have no problem with the Government spending money to try and improve employment, educational, health and law & order outcomes for Maori. It is in all of our interest, to have Maori New Zealanders achieve better outcomes.
That does not mean that every programme designed to achieve better outcomes is a good idea though. And it doesn’t mean that programmes have to be delivered purely on racial grounds (although some do). A programme that is effective at improving educational outcomes for low income families will benefit Maori, even if not specifically targeted at them.
If specific targeting does make a programme more effective, then I’m okay with that. But decisions should be based on proven effectiveness. And if they don’t work, then they should stop.
So Joris may have a point on a lack of generosity by some towards lifting outcomes for Maori, but maybe he could also express a view on the generosity of those who called Hekia Parata, Tariana Turia and Pita Sharples “niggers” at Waitangi yesterday. Because fairly or unfairly the actions of those extreme elements contribute significantly to a lack of “generosity” by many.
February 6th, 2012 at 9:48 am
As I have noted (link at the GD), there are extremists on both sides; but de Bres only sees one group of them. He should go
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 9:51 am
It is sad that the wankers generate so much media attention which in turn influences the general public to be less than generous.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 9:52 am
Oh FFS!
We need a new Race Relations Commissioner.
Kiwis are the most generous people in the world and bend over backwards to help anyone really disadvantaged.
Just look at the huge outpouring of sympathy and money to that young girl who was raped at the end of last year.
Maori have been given every opportunity in this country to do better; handout after handout of taxpayer money in government programmes, so much so that some of them seem to have this sense of entitlement. Most Kiwis are sick and tired of it. They know they have already given to this
Vote:bottomless money pitcause, multiple times.February 6th, 2012 at 9:55 am
I would like to see more public recognition of the difference between real Maori citizens of this country, and Maori(TM) who occupy an aggrieved, legalese, state-funded dream-world of “entitlement” far removed from reality.
Couple of the Maori boys I went to school with in Rotorua are now living in Brizzy & the Gold Coast and making awesome money. There are no special race-based provisions for Maoris over there.
“Respecting the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi” has got to start meaning something more worthwhile than ensuring the continuation of a healthy Govt funding stream for Maori(TM) such as Tuku “I was entitled” Morgan and his ilk, if this country is going to go somewhere…
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 10:03 am
de Bres is a wet fish. Apparently racism can only be perpetrated by people with white skin.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 10:12 am
I knew a south African family that came to NZ because they had boys, and white boys are really disadvantaged in SF. The pendulum has swung too far and they couldn’t see them getting good jobs in their country of birth. I said it over in GD, but will say it more
“elegantly” here. JDB should be shown the error of his ways. He should realise his position is one of influence and controversy and know how to word releases so as not to court the stirrers. I reckon we’re on the cusp of another mass exodus from NZ personally, because of this kind of divisiveness. We’re probably better behaved in other countries too; less of a sense of entitlement.
http://nowoccupy.blogspot.com/2012/02/hullo-waitangi-day-then-goodbye-new.html
Vote:“
February 6th, 2012 at 10:12 am
Welcome to eyeland, population 6. The inhabitants are called A, B, C, D, X, and Y.
There are two races on eyeland. A, B, C, and D are all green, while X, and Y are the minority orange race.
However all is not well in eyeland. A, B, C all earn $20,000 per year while D, X, and Y earn $10,000 per year. So greens earn on average $17,500 per year, while the minority oranges earn on average $10,000 per year.
Race relations comissioner B decides that something must be done about it. He introduces a 14% (one seventh) income tax on greens and evenly distributes the revenue amongst oranges.
Now A, B, and C each get $17,143 per year, X and Y get $15,000, and D gets $8,571. This means that the greens earn $15,000 per year on average and the oranges are the same.
B throws a party to celebrate his success at eliminating racial inequality in eyeland!
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 10:13 am
David Farrar says:- “That does not mean that every programme designed to achieve better outcomes is a good idea though.”
I agree entirely. Keep the effective programs, refine them, and chuck out the bathwater. Problem is, the effective programs are very expensive in the short term, and governments both left and right are notoriously short term thinkers. An apolitical bi-partisan approach is what is really needed here.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 10:14 am
What has the race relations commissioner achieved? Strikes me his job is redundant and has contributed nothing towards race realtions in NZ. All he does is ignore the negative comments of Maori and lambast white people who support one law for all and equal OPPORTUNITY for all.
Vote:Equality of outcome, eg health, income, education etc are matters of personal choice. The fact that more Maori choose a life with more crime, more child killing, more cigarete smoking, more obestity, less educational expectations, less desire for wealth and the hard work that goes with it etc etc is nothing more than their choice.
The fact that many many, in fact most Maori do exceptionally well in life, do not smoke, do not kill their kids, work hard etc etc proves my point.
February 6th, 2012 at 10:20 am
And where is it written that the white and successful have an obligation to give to and uplift the brown and poor? I would be great if thebrown and poor were able to live as well as all others but not at the expense of enslaving some to others.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 10:31 am
Hopefully the next rrc will have not been schooled in the Margaret Mutu definition of racism
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 10:38 am
The Scorned says:- “And where is it written that the white and successful have an obligation to give to and uplift the brown and poor?”
Because ultimately it is in their self-interest, and government is mandated by the majority of its constituents to act in their best interests within the context of society as it stands.
You may have dreams of a cheap bullet and the property right to dispense such a solution, but that ain’t gonna happen any time soon so you either play the game that is being played or forever vent your frustrations on the bleachers.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 10:41 am
Every Maori Language Week our local newspaper is filled with stories of old Maori who used to get whacked for speaking Maori. There is a hangover from when white was right and there was memory of Maori savagery and near extinction that made both Maori and white folks think of Maori as inferior.
Now the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction of “I’m ok, you’re not okay” and there is a failure to look at Maori culture objectively and identify the things it would be better without — the feeling that you always have to be a violent angry warrior would be top of the list there IMO.
There is a new generation of New Zealander emerging who has the “I’m ok, you’re ok” attitude necessary for true biculturalism, but before we can get there we have to wait for the Hahrawira types to die off, which they will.
In the mean time, it would not hurt to show some generostity, but if we are to be a true partnership, we should do away with the idea that the people given the money to solve these human problems of poverty have to have Maori ancestry, because a lot of them are pretty ineffective at producing results.
Put a bit of Pakeha hard-headedness with accountability in there in an “I’m ok, you’re ok” spirit, and it could be a catalyst for a new effectiveness.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 10:48 am
Well I’m convinced- Once I’ve finished flaggellating myself raw for being a descendant of those ‘evil colonial Pakehas’ (that Joris seems to detest so much..) I will empty my bank account and tear the shirt off my back before donating it all to those nice chaps from the Mongrel Mob. I trust all other nasty ‘Whiteys’ will rid themselves of their colonial guilt and do the same? We must be held accountable….
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 10:49 am
I am currently staying with my Maori ex.
Vote:He is struggling financially because he has depression and issues with drink.
His brother is struggling financially because he likes his dope too much, and despite being a carpenter for ten or more years, has still to pass his qualifications.
On the other hand, I have had bosses who are Maori.
I have interviewed top bosses of councils corporates etc, who are Maori.
People do not fail because they are Maori.
They fail because they have bad habits.
And this applies to Pakeha as it does to Maori.
If we are to have a debate on Maori not progressing as much as Pakeha, we have to realise it is not a black-white issue some would have us believe.
The solution lies within the individual.
February 6th, 2012 at 11:13 am
There are openly Two Maori Races now – those that Have, and those that Have Not.
Vote:The Have Not will never be allowed by Maori Have to get their dirty paws on what we have.
Get real.
The internal fights between Tribes and Iwi Settlements and the products is greater than ever as the money stays with the Maori Have.
What we are seeing today from the Maori Have, put forward for them by Maori Have Not, is an attempt to lower the SOE partial sale prices so they can get their hands on some shares at a lower price.
Remember – FOLLOW THE MONEY
February 6th, 2012 at 11:18 am
Fairfacts Media – Bullseye!!! You are right, life is a do it to yourself project and you can be your own worst enemy at times.
People make all of the decisions over things that they have a choice/or control over in their lives. If you want to get ahead in life you can get all the advice and support (of whatever shape or form) in the world, but the person looking out at you in the mirror each day is the person who calls the shots and makes the choices that determines what your life is or can be.
All people are subject to this simple truth regardless of their ethnicity.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 11:20 am
When will Labor lite fire comrade Joris? The sooner, the better!
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 11:24 am
The problem is too much generosity toward Maoris. We’ve been fostering this sense of entitlement for so long and it’s only gotten worse. There’s been ridiculous amounts of money poured into ‘things Maori’ and it seems to have little to no effect or value at the end of the day. Just scrap all the handouts and any type of special status in NZ. Let them stand on their own two feet or die trying.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 11:31 am
More money is not the answer, if it was after a massive increase in spending by the Labour’s 9 years in government there should of been a fall in negative statistics for Maoris, but they have all increased.
Doing the same thing over and over again or doubling down on failed policies is not the answer.
Its time for all New Zealanders to say I am going to be responsibile for myself and my family and stand on their own two feet and to be proud of who they are.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 11:35 am
rights verses obligation
Vote:lots of rights yet no obligation in return gives us this outcome
February 6th, 2012 at 11:45 am
Joris loves statistics.
Example:
230,000 children live in poverty.
Statistics:
~75 % of them are non-Maori
~25 % of them are Maori
15% of the NZ population is Maori so Maori are over represented and warrant special treatment.
We help 60,000 children and leave the other 170,000 children.
http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/disturbing-child-poverty-report-4381794
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 11:59 am
He receives a constant stream of mail because a programme that solely supports disadvantaged Maori does not support disadvantaged non-Maori.
And thanks Joris for being so free with other people’s money.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 12:14 pm
The maori protestors at Waitangi demand that everybody treats them with respect, but they themselves are evidently incapable of showing respect to anybody else – their hosts on the marae, the elected leader of the country, any honkies, maori MPs (except those from their team) etc etc.
Which is why nobody should waste their time listening to their protests – they are just hypocrites.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 12:15 pm
de Bres is the modern equivalent of the witchfinder pursuivant. As soon as he stops finding witches he’s out of a job.
Professional Racial Agitator is his informal job title.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 12:29 pm
Joris de Bris is a cringing clown….
As for “targeting the brown disadvantaged”, this has been happening for as long as anyone alive can remember….as a lad (which was more than forty years ago) I recall asking my parents why there were Maori trade training schemes and Maori scholarships and various other things for which Maori blood – in those days at least the recipients were actually brown – was a requirement. Their response was a version of dear old Joris’ quoted in this post. So for fifty years at least – actually much longer – we have been doing this “targeting” and what has it achieved?
A great proportion of – probably most – Maori just get on with being New Zealanders; the kind of Maori “culture” deified by Hone and his band of malcontents is either totally irrelevant to or an embarassment to them. For Hone’s followers and the rest, I seriously start to wonder if we should think about carving off some portion of the country – include the Tuhoe nation, they have been asking for it for long enough – and declare an independent Maori state there for anyone who wishes to live in it under the wise and beneficient rule of Hone and his “cabinet”.
I have even thought of the boundaries of the state: a line due north from lake Taupo (hell throw that in) southeast to Wairoa. That part of the country contains the Waikaremoana electricity generating stations which will supply the new state (until new bearings and other equipment needs to be bought to maintain them); probably more oil than in Taranaki (see how concerned the iwi are about the environment when the exploration companies come offering millions for exploration permits); great beaches from Gisborne right around the East Coast; high quality horticultural land on the Poverty Bay flats, and good productive hill country – provided it is worked right – in short all the resources any state could need, and much more than many independent states.
Those of use who stay west of the border could then simply get on with being New Zealanders, forget about this so called international treaty which under well settled principles of law is no such thing, stop having to pretend that the stone age Maori were anything more or less than a thousand other similar cultures…..
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 12:59 pm
Because ultimately it is in their self-interest, and government is mandated by the majority of its constituents to act in their best interests within the context of society as it stands.
Of course its in my self interest for Maori to be wealth,healthy and wise…but not at the expense of my life and liberty. Governments role is to protect the equal,individual rights of ALL kiwis…and any special privileges to one group by default violates that moral validity.
You may have dreams of a cheap bullet and the property right to dispense such a solution, but that ain’t gonna happen any time soon so you either play the game that is being played or forever vent your frustrations on the bleachers.
Who said anything about bullets you shithouse tard? However the rest of us do have the right to resist the encroachment of authoritarianism….even with force in the end if required.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 1:19 pm
Throwing money at any problem is identical to throwing money down a drainpipe and never seeing it again. All funding should be earmarked as “results-based” from the very beginning and if there are no immediate results such funding should gradually peal back.
Sadly, this is far from the reality on the ground. Money is thrown around and most of it is never heard of again.
There are numerous Maori private schools in South Auckland that reap exactly what they sow – fowl mouthed young guns with no respect for authority or for decorum. Academically, one has an entire imagination to dream up what probably goes wrong in the classroom environment.
There has to be another way!
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 1:19 pm
DPF says:
I have no problem with the Government spending money.
Well plenty of us do. and you see that’s the problem. Govt.s solution to everything is to spend more money that it cannot generate itself without stealing it from someone else and it can in no way hold that spending accountable properly when it comes to social welfare programs.
Until govt. understand and take as gospel that business creates wealth and only business then we will continue to have this problem. Govt’s. (especially in NZ), don’t create wealth, they spend the results of others wealth creation efforts. (as do local bodies.) All called in business “overheads”.
Govt.’s (if they knew how),can create the conditions for creating that wealth.(which they don’t).
The only person to do that in modern NZ was Roger Douglas and he has malaigned ever since.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 1:32 pm
Lefties have it stuck in their heads that the only solution is redistribution and they won’t move off it.
They aren’t capable of shifting from that mindset.
OTOH conservatives will never agree that redistribution is the answer.
It’s exactly what the AGW debate is, only on a far more ubiquitous scale since the economy touches all of us every single day. But that’s the central issue and everytime the sides change the engine gets readjusted according to that sides perception of things. Consequently you get no smooth running ever.
The only answer is a dictatorship where the dictator actually knows what he’s doing and as we all know, that means a conservative dictatorship forever and ever.
So sorry about lefties, we won, you lost, eat that. It’s your own fault you know. As some point in life you simply took a wrong turning and went wandering down the lefty road where nothing works and everything you touch breaks except in your own mind, where there’s so much ‘fa la la’ going on in your heads you fail to perceive the horrible reality of your hating and wrecking until its all too late and everyone simply hates your guts so much they simply vote you out of power as if they hate you. This just happened in December, didn’t it and then again three years ago didn’t it. Yes, it did. Those who don’t learn from history are condemned to repeat it, lefties. Honestly, you’d think one or two of them would wake up every now and again, wouldn’t you…
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 1:38 pm
Things won’t change until the Professional Maoris stop teaching the young ones victimisation and start teaching them respect.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 1:42 pm
“When will Labor lite fire comrade Joris? The sooner, the better!”
Damn right.
Key has the power to end all of this but chooses not to.
No courage, no ethics, no principles.
That is the National Party today.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 2:01 pm
The Scorned says:- “Who said anything about bullets”
Because that is the libertarian solution you dumb fuckwit. Pfft. You haven’t even considered the ramifications of implementing your belief system.
Why the hell do you think American libertarians are so keen on strong property rights and the so anti gun control? It’s so they can shoot any ‘spik or nigger’ who happens to trespass.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 2:09 pm
Isn’t the secret to really effective trolling to be subtle?
Something witty might help too?
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 2:16 pm
tom hunter: your post on the other thread “not much mana in that” was excellent….well done.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 2:18 pm
David.
Thanks, but I actually don’t think I deserve much praise for it – and I don’t feel comfortable discussing why.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 2:22 pm
Scott, an alternative view: http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/2nd_Amend/equalizer.htm
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 2:50 pm
**”The advice is consistent. Educational achievement, health outcomes, unemployment, housing, justice – they’re all issues which reflect Maori and Pacific disadvantage and any self-respecting government would say: well, if that’s the situation, we have to do something about it.***
The mistake de Bres makes is that he assumes that there should be equal group outcomes. To anyone other than a creationist, this makes no sense. Groups were subjected to different environments and geographic environments for thousands of years. These different environments favour different physical and mental traits so populations differ on average.
For example, tropical environments where women are more independent in raising children and there is less need for high paternal investment, tend to select for different traits. In those societies you get greater selection for alpha male traits, high testosterone, dominance seeking, aggression, high masculinity etc. In colder environments, such as those europeans and asians tended to be in, you had greater selection for paternal provisioning, which is assisted by anxiety, altruism, empathy, behavioral restraint and gratification delay.
http://the10000yearexplosion.com/human-cultural-diversity/
Economist Greg Clark has written about this in the context of the Industrial Revolution.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/science/07indu.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=dbd529f0cc3c0cf2&ex=1187582400
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 3:19 pm
Christ Bob….you have to be a uni student…
successuve governments have been “doing something about it” since Ngata was a cabinet minister….since his time, things have got inexorably worse for Maori…. Quite clearly we have been on totally the wrong track….it’s interesting that Ngata said in the 1920′s that the result of extending welfare to Maori would be the destruction of the race….if he was alive today he wouldnt be very surprised…
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 3:29 pm
Race Relations Commissioner Joris de Bres criticised those Pakeha who still resisted moves to give “special treatment” to disadvantaged Maori, thousands of whom suffered inequality.
I am a Pekeha who came to New Zealand in 1986 and became a citizen in 2002. I and my children deserve to be accorded all the rights and responsibilities of citizenship. There should only ever be one class of citizenship. I have never and will never discriminate against any of my fellow citizens. I can support “special treatment” for my fellow citizens based on need. In doing so I will be gender blind, religion blind and race blind. I will be blind to any other non-need factors be it hair colour or sexual preference or political persuasion.
Vote:I am one of the Pakeha citizens of New Zealand whom Joris de Bres criticises. I do strongly object and resist moves to give “special treatment” purely due to the race of some citizens. I do so because I believe in one class of citizenship irrespective of race. His racial preference views are incompatible with his role.
February 6th, 2012 at 5:27 pm
@ David Garrett,
I’ve just recently become interested in sociobiology and how this explains aspects of human behaviour. If the “disadvantage” de Bres refers to is man made or due to some systematic unfairness I’d be more sympathetic to his case. However, it seems that groups also are likely to have different average outcomes regardless.* This significantly undermines de Bres’ moral case. Philosophy Professor Michael Levin has written about this in the US. Steve Hsu gives an explanation of how statistical differences can arise here.
* http://infoproc.blogspot.co.nz/2011/08/demography-and-fast-evolution.html
In any case, I agree that race based funding is a toxic idea. And you risk creating an entitlement and dependency culture. Charles Murray wrote about this in the US, where the 1960′s social programs actually had many negative impacts.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 5:43 pm
de Bres’ moral case.
He hasn’t got one.
Vote:February 6th, 2012 at 7:34 pm
Race Relations Commissioner Joris de Bres criticised those Pakeha whostill resisted moves to give “special treatment” to disadvantaged Maori, thousands of whom suffered inequality.
Vote:vomit here.
Hello Tipene O’Regan Irishman, pat your people now you ratbag.
February 6th, 2012 at 7:52 pm
Fisiani at 3.29 p.m.
Vote:JORIS DE BRES’ RACIAL PREFERENCE VIEWS ARE INCOMPATIBLE WITH HIS ROLE.
I put it in capital letters because it is axiomatic.
Let me put it another way;
The Racing Relations Counsellor is the Keeper of the Stud Book. And his records must be scrupulously accurate.
The Race Relations Counsellor must treat all races equally.
If my idea of fun was sodomising a Labour Party politician, then I would agree that the Race Relations Counsellor must give special preference to at least one racial group.
But I’m not, it isn’t, and I don’t.
February 6th, 2012 at 9:21 pm
Bullshit day thats all this is.
Vote:Lasy arse black trash thats all that we see on TV.
Hard working Maori must be embarassed as hell.I feel pity for our future,
February 7th, 2012 at 10:47 am
said he would note that 41 per cent of school children in Auckland and Northland were Pakeha
I.E. the best answer to the continuing escalation in Maori child poverty – stop f’in breeding
Vote: