Moving Stories

November 17th, 2013 at 11:00 am by David Farrar

A New Zealand journalists blogs:

I am a journalist and for the past week or so my work-related world has revolved around the so-called Roast Busters case.

I am also a survivor of sexual assault. …

I’ve learned, over my years as a journalist, to hold the horrible things at arm’s length, to let myself feel the pain of them but not to let them affect the other parts of my life. I love my job, and to me it’s largely worth that effort. But the ugly jolt of alleged sex crimes as shocking as these ones, a case that dominates the discourse of an entire country for days on end, sends concentric ripples into the rest of my life as well.

By the second day of the Roast Busters story, my jaw hurt from clenching it. As each new detail came out and was discussed around me in the office, I got a weird, floating feeling in my arms and legs that I know from experience to be adrenalin. After a few bursts of it I was exhausted, but I lay in bed later – one in the morning, two, three – unable to sleep. My eyes were gritty and I picked at the skin on my fingers until, by the third day, my hands looked worse than they had in years. I started feeling too sick to my stomach to eat.

I thought about posting something on Facebook, but there are members of my family who don’t know I was sexually assaulted. I’m Facebook friends with colleagues who are expecting me to cover the Roast Busters case and don’t know I was assaulted. Newsrooms are tough places and people expect that journalists will behave like tough people. I’ve no doubt that I’m Facebook friends with survivors I don’t know about, who are just as nervous about being outed as I am in this situation. I’m seeing a guy who doesn’t know yet about this thing in my past, and probably doesn’t need to find out in a pained, wounded social media rant. So I stayed silent.

I this this whole sage has probably been painful for many victims of and sexual assault. The entire blog post is very raw but real.

Over at I am someone, a number of victims tell their stories. I won’t even try to quote from their stories but it is hard to read a 14 year old girl writing about the friend’s father who assaulted her when she was nine. But reading their stories is not in the same universe as telling them.

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137 Responses to “Moving Stories”

  1. tvb (4,518 comments) says:

    This will not stop the Greens preaching doom, saying only socialism can save us and all development must stop.

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  2. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    Stuff all men sexually assault women – saying otherwise is just an admission that society is being too PC about the problem. Men in general should be seen as protectors of women. Not potential rapists.

    So how do you stop grown male adults from assaulting 9yld girls? Or adult women?

    Everything else being tried isn’t working…..other than some men are NO LONGER doing it.

    And rapists don’t care about girls or women anyway – as if they did – they wouldn’t do it.

    Boys having manhood installed into them throughout their formative years by their fathers is really the best course mankind has ever known that provides protection and support for wifes and children – society in general.

    As history has shown us time and time again – if you neglect males in society then the weaker males will turn against the women. Males need good character and respect in society.

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  3. thedavincimode (6,877 comments) says:

    Get over it. You aren’t the only victim in this country.

    When will they be holding the anti-murder/anti-assault/anti-paedo/anti-child abuse marches?

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  4. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    As someone said on GD, when are you going to organise one?

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  5. nickb (3,696 comments) says:

    I can’t say the assertion that NZ males are fostering a widespread rape culture is going to be much of a winner.

    Why do the vast majority of men who love, respect and protect the women in their lives need to “take action”, “take responsibility” and “stop the rape culture” when outside of PG’s dystopian worldview such a culture only exists in the minds of criminals?

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  6. thedavincimode (6,877 comments) says:

    nickb

    Exactly. I’m afraid this stuff just gives me the merdes. Judge society on the basis of its lowest common denominator. Pfft. Classic pinko response that only distracts attention from root causes and solutions and provides a pretext to further regulate and control.

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  7. nickb (3,696 comments) says:

    Uh huh. Watch for erosion of the right to a fair trial in sexual abuse cases. Facilitated by PG style handwringers guilty they have turned a blind eye to abuse in the past.

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  8. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    Why do the vast majority of men who love, respect and protect the women in their lives need to “take action”, “take responsibility” and “stop the rape culture”

    There are (or should be) joint societal responsibilities. And it could be a woman or girl or son in your life who is at risk.

    It is going to be difficult to get a reasonable balance between the right to a fair trial in sexual abuse cases, the need to hold perpetrators to account (as emphasised by Judith Collins on Q & A) and the right to protect victims from further abuse through the legal process.

    nick and tdm – do you think the way sexual abuse is handled by society and by our legal system is currently adequate and that no change need be considered?

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  9. Longknives (4,889 comments) says:

    “do you think the way sexual abuse is handled by society and by our legal system is currently adequate and that no change need be considered?”

    Having seen firsthand how a false rape allegation can utterly fucking destroy someone’s life I would like to suggest that perpetrators of false rape allegations be charged and fronted before the Courts for their pathetic little games.
    So yes- I think change is necessary…

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  10. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    Longknives – yes, it would be good if we could have a way of better protecting both rape victims and the falsely accused.

    Rape can have horrendous effects on the lives of victims and often their family and friends, often for a lifetime, more than just about any other crime. But false accusations of rape are just as serious and with potentially similar adverse effects.

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  11. thedavincimode (6,877 comments) says:

    nickb

    Tureilooloo is already suggesting that.

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  12. thedavincimode (6,877 comments) says:

    The other option is to put nutritional info on the booze labels. This will make everyone refrain from getting pissed and our rape culture will decline accordingly.

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  13. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    The starting point has to remain that there is a presumption of innocence and that any accused perpetrator receives full procedural protections in accordance with the spirit of the common law.

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  14. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    CAto – yes, I agree with that as the starting point on the defence side of it.

    I think there also has to be better assistance for and protection of complainants in accordance with the spirit of a decent society. In most cases they are the injured party, often severely injured.

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  15. nickb (3,696 comments) says:

    Agreed DVM. And Cato. No way in hell the accused will get a fair trial. The media were labelling the girls involved “victims” (not even “alleged victims” from day 1).

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  16. jims_whare (404 comments) says:

    PG that is great. Now the difficulty is working out which is which. Stranger rape is normally not that hard to get evidence for and to prosecute.

    It is rape complaints by partners and ex’s that are very hard to determine – especially with no impartial witnesses.

    How do you prosecute one person’s word against another’s especially when the issue of consent can be very transitory and murky with the issues of consent followed by regret after the event, scorned ‘victims’ looking for an easy way to seek revenge, and the challenges of relationship property/custody battles all of which provide some incentive for truth to fly out the window. (What about mental health issues and worries about family opinion)

    And I say this knowing two women who have been abused and raped and having seen the trauma that comes from this.

    Having said that the numb-skulls on the roast buster video all deserve a good tar and feathering for amoral attitude and behaviour towards underage girls – and the parents of the girls could do with a good yelling at for allowing their daughters to get in that situation.

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  17. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “….There are (or should be) joint societal responsibilities. And it could be a woman or girl or son in your life who is at risk….”

    Quite so PG.

    Mothers and fathers need to install into their sons AND daughters that males in society should be viewed as protectors AND providers for the benefit of themselves, their wives, their Marriage, their children, and society in general both now and in future generations.

    Males under no cicumstance should collectivly be viewed as potential rapists as it is not only an injustice upon males but also one of the most disgusting insults upon males: all males pick on women and children – people who are phyiscly weaker.

    No average or even less than average male want’s a ‘rape culture’ in NZ – as then all males will be viewed as a ‘threat to women’.

    No matter what males do individualy or collectively, women will always need to be cautious in an open and free society so that rape is a rare occurance.

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  18. Sector 7g (242 comments) says:

    Rape culture? Rape culture? Rape culture? Fuck me.
    There is no rape culture.
    What there is is a culture of ” I do what I want and what the fuck are you going to do about it?”
    That is the only culture New Zealand’s crims have. Look out your windows, look on the streets, look in the paper, look on the T.V. Everywhere you look you will see the crims not giving a fuck. Why? Because the very people that will be marching against “rape culture” advocated for it. They wanted light sentences, they supported criminals by giving them excuses such as poverty, parenting, capitalism, race, society etc to justify their crimes.
    In summary, they showed criminals that there is nothing going to happen to you on the off chance that you get caught, we will support you, you will not go to jail, you will not have to pay your fines or do your community service. We will support you, go for it.
    Fucking rape culture? It’s Kiwi Culture that’s the problem.

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  19. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “…..Fucking rape culture? It’s Kiwi Culture that’s the problem….”

    Exactly Sector 7g.

    Kiwiculture : giving ‘equality’ to the lowest common standards of behaviour so that every kiwi feels ‘included’ in ‘our tolerant society’. Pathetic.

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  20. JC (973 comments) says:

    Get ready for the tsunami you know is coming our way:

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2005/08/false_rape_complaints.html

    JC

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  21. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    Police say false complaints are at about 8% but research shows that’s high due to discrepancies in reporting and police opinion on what constitutes ‘false’.

    Reported sexual assaults are estimated at about 10% of actual incidences, most are unreported because of things like the trauma and embarrassment involved in reporting and the difficulty in convicting.

    As Judith Collins discussed on Q & A this morning some victims want the assault dealt with by an accepting of responsibility by the attacker and taking measures to stop it recurring but don’t want the perpetrator to have to go to prison due to personal and family reasons – they often know the person and family. Collins talked about restorative justice.

    http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news/judith-collins-roast-busters-case-video-5712327

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  22. wikiriwhis business (4,135 comments) says:

    “Kiwiculture : giving ‘equality’ to the lowest common standards of behaviour so that every kiwi feels ‘included’ in ‘our tolerant society’. Pathetic.”

    The Roast Buster case proved only child abuse is acted on swiftly by police. Females over 16 have to prove beyond their comfort zone they were raped.

    Underage sex is not a priority to police. That’s why Colleges in Hamilton are full of pregnant students

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  23. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “…..As Judith Collins discussed on Q & A this morning some victims want the assault dealt with by an accepting of responsibility by the attacker and taking measures to stop it recurring but don’t want the perpetrator to have to go to prison due to personal and family reasons – they often know the person and family. Collins talked about restorative justice….”

    Yes……Collins would say that…..as she may well know that rape is entirely different to ‘feeling pressured’ or being ‘unwilling’. Jailing some male because ‘feeling pressured’ is infered as rape and ends in a rape conviction is manifestly wrong. No male should be placed amongst the court of public based opinon on the ‘changed feelings’ of someone.

    I think Collins is really trying to start a ‘national conversation’ about ‘power equality’ and women having ‘respect for themselves – and others’ something that is much needed in NZ society where sexual assault is now really a matter of context – or actions taken out of context!

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  24. wikiriwhis business (4,135 comments) says:

    ‘something that is much needed in NZ society where sexual assault is now really a matter of context – or actions taken out of context!’

    There.s no such thing as context any more or Willy and JT would still be on air in context.

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  25. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    PG,

    The reality is that once the criminal law gets involved, there’s not much that can be done for a rape victim. She’s already suffered a terrible ordeal and nothing but time will (hopefully) be able to heal that wound.

    A few months ago (I think) you very movingly explained a situation where you became aware of domestic violence but was too afraid to intervene. From memory, these regrets are at least a small part of the impetus for your present fervour – which is itself for quite a righteous cause.

    I am very glad you have come around to seeing that your past inaction was wrong. However, I’m not sure what good it will do to project your past weaknesses onto the majority of New Zealand men, who for my experience don’t share those defects. Perhaps it is a generational thing.

    However, there will always be subhuman scum who, given the opportunity, will pursue their own terrible gratification with the cruel and terrifying effects of their cruelty.

    What practical steps do we take? Well, their actions themselves have already been outlawed. Given sufficient evidence there’s no way on earth a modern Court would let them off. The problem, to many people, is that due to the realities of sex too many rapists get off for insufficient evidence. Sex occurs usually in private and therefore is particularly prone to devolving into a contest of the testimony of just two people.

    The unstated aim of the present discussion seems to be to ensure more convictions. For the reasons set out above, however, the only way to do this is to lower the evidential standards or procedural protections that are open to the accused. I’m sorry, but I just can’t see brushing aside the golden thread as being justified when false accusations seem quite common (in an absolute rather than relative sense). For example, about 3 seconds on the Google turns up these results:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/6608142/Hamilton-girl-made-false-rape-complaint-police
    http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/mp/13219190/girl-admits-to-false-rape-claim/
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10892816
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10559778
    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/226677/arrest-over-false-rape-complaint
    http://www.voxy.co.nz/national/woman-charged-making-false-rape-complaint/5/7165
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/regional/32962/woman-to-defend-false-rape-complaint-charge

    Now, let’s say that you don’t actually want to debase the criminal law and instead you simply want to show off your anti-rape bona fides in an effort to shame the Police into taking complaints more seriously. What I would be interested to know is whether you think that would mean the Police suspending all judgment and making an arrest in respect of every complaint?

    Given that 1) false complaints do happen and, 2) nobody is ever acquitted in the court of public opinion from any sex crime prosecution – that would greatly pertrube me. However, in the context of the prevailing media climate I worry that’s where we are headed.

    You seem to be setting yourself up as a foremost crusader here – and I would just be interested to know what your actual aims are.

    Would you do me a favour? If you never read anything else I ever write could you please check out this analysis of commentators responses to the gang rape allegations at Duke University a few years ago: http://www.ajr.org/Article.asp?id=4379

    Only the most inhumane among us don’t get angry when we hear about the abuse of vulnerable women. However, it is the essence of being a nation of laws that we then make sincere efforts to step back and try to make a dispassionate analysis of the situation.

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  26. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    Cato, you make a number of incorrect assumptions and misrepresentations.

    In the example I gave a few months ago I was not “too afraid to intervene”, I just chose to remain silent. I was young then. Like many people choose to remain silent. Long ago I decided to take action and speak up as I have learnt of how violence and acceptance of violence works in our society.

    Ironically there are people on Kiwiblog criticising me for what I said I didn’t do, and those same people “share those defects” now and criticise and attack me repeatedly for speaking up, making excuses in actively supporting those “stay quiet” defects themselves.

    …setting yourself up as a foremost crusader here.

    You may not be noticing but what I’m doing on Kiwiblog is similar to what many many people are doing across social media right now. There seems to be a real change in determination to address a problem that has for too long been shoved under the rug.

    Now, let’s say that you don’t actually want to debase the criminal law and instead you simply want to show off your anti-rape bona fides in an effort to shame the Police into taking complaints more seriously. What I would be interested to know is whether you think that would mean the Police suspending all judgment and making an arrest in respect of every complaint?

    That’s a substantial misrepresentation or misunderstanding of what I’ve said. I’m not trying to “show off”, I’m not trying to “shame the Police” and “the Police suspending all judgment” is just crazy.

    I suggest you watch the Judith Collins interview. I think she gets it, you obviously don’t.

    http://tvnz.co.nz/q-and-a-news/judith-collins-roast-busters-case-video-5712327

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  27. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    If I misunderstood what you said earlier I am glad to have a fuller explanation.

    I’m not accusing you of showing off or anything like that. I just want to know if you’re advocating a practical program to improve the prosecution or whether by ‘speaking out’ you are just trying to raise awarenesss. If it’s the latter, to what end? What’s the indirect result you’re trying to achieve.

    Granting that everybody agrees rape is terrible and that nobody would defend not reporting it – what’s the desired outcome?

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  28. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    The unstated aim of the present discussion seems to be to ensure more convictions.

    If it’s unstated it’s your guess, and I think that misses the whole point – again, listen to Judith Collins.

    For the reasons set out above, however, the only way to do this is to lower the evidential standards or procedural protections that are open to the accused.

    No it’s not, far from it. For example if 20% of sexual assaults were reported instead of the current 10% it’s likely there would be more convictions making no other changes.

    I’m sorry, but I just can’t see brushing aside the golden thread as being justified when false accusations seem quite common (in an absolute rather than relative sense). For example, about 3 seconds on the Google turns up these results:

    A Google search is not a statistical study. If you want Google statistics:

    rape “false complaint” site:.co.nz – About 504 results
    rape complaint site:.co.nz – About 33,200 results

    That doesn’t mean anything substantive either.

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  29. gump (1,662 comments) says:

    @Harriet

    “Males under no cicumstance should collectivly be viewed as potential rapists as it is not only an injustice upon males but also one of the most disgusting insults upon males: all males pick on women and children – people who are phyiscly weaker.

    No matter what males do individualy or collectively, women will always need to be cautious in an open and free society so that rape is a rare occurance.”

    —————–

    Can you not see the inherent failure of logic in your post?

    You start off by saying that men should never be collectively viewed as potential rapists, then you assert that women always need to be cautious to avoid being raped.

    If your first premise is true, then what do women have to be cautious about?

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  30. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    No, it doesn’t mean anything. The obvious existence of false claims, however – does.

    But I would still like to know – what are your aims? What would be a succesful campaign?

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  31. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    All it means is that there are false claims, which is well known anyway. Otherwise it’s meaningless.

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  32. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    That’s exactly what it means. The relative rarity of them is answered by Blackstone’s ratio.

    But still – what are you hoping to achieve with your program. You say that your decision to speak out on social media is not motivated by a desire to puff up on the issue. I believe you. However, it would be interesting to know what a succesful campaign would look like to you.

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  33. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    It’s already been successful, although it’s not a campaign or a program – but there’s signs it may be a societal shift.

    Several months ago when I raised the issue of ‘rape culture’ here on Kiwiblog I was extensively attacked and abused (by a small minority) which continued even though I didn’t bring it up again. Some still repeat lies and misinformation now, as has happened today.

    One of many ironies – I get criticised for admitting something I didn’t do thirty years ago, and get criticised for doing something now. Trolls are like that.

    With the Roast Busters example becoming topical rape culture has been discussed here again, but the support of rape culture and the attacks against anyone talking about it have been more muted despite much more news and debate, and many more have spoken up in support of addressing the sexual abuse problems in our society. So that is some success.

    But it’s only part of an ongoing discussion that I and obviously many others promote if the topic comes up. I’m only a very small part of a growing awareness and determination that a major problem needs to be addressed.

    For society to work better on it’s problems it needs many small voices to combine and continue.

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  34. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    Sorry – I mean success in terms of helping vulnerable women who might otherwise be exposed to risk of sexual abuse.

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  35. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    What I mean to say is that, let’s accept for the sake of argument that, a) there has been a change of attitudes and that, b) this is down to your ‘speaking out’ rather than the way the media has handled Roast Busters.

    What changes will that make for the types of girls who were victimised by the Roast Busters. I take it that you don’t think any of the commenters here, though they have been critical of you personally, were the type to promote or turn a blind eye towards sexual abuse and rape.

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  36. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    Has Inspector RM Gibson been sacked yet?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11133621

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  37. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    A number of commenters here have blamed the victims and made excuses for rapists. For example on GD this morning:

    @Chuck
    “the so called right for stupid women to put themselves at risk”
    “women who get raped because they put themselves at risk”

    And 9 peoeple have down ticked me saying “Appalling examples of victim blaming and ‘rape culture’.”

    That can be worse than turning a blind eye towards sexual abuse and rape, it can help justify the actions of rapists to the rapists by victim blaming, thereby signaling some societal acceptance of sexual abuse and rape.

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  38. Nostalgia-NZ (5,281 comments) says:

    The word ‘culture’ is being abused here. How a few f wits from West Auckland, as dumb as pig crap, and at the very least indiscreet on Facebook are said to be representative of a ‘culture’ in NZ is nuts. Those using that ‘word’ to push a barrow are ‘f wits’ as well because they’re alienating and antagonising a large part of the population by virtually accusing them as being the ‘same’ as dumbsters. That part, lumping together under a misused phrase, rates on the offensive scale as well.

    Maybe you can clear that up for me Pete George. Are you representing a voice that says all males, some males, a tiny percentage of males are aligned by ‘culture’ with those f wits? I don’t believe there is such a culture abroad apart from in a very limited way mostly associated with gangs of one sort or the other. What makes you for example not part of this ‘culture,’ is it because you possibly feel better about yourself pointing the bone at others in the general population that you can’t possibly know?

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  39. Manolo (14,080 comments) says:

    I suspect the ineffable P.G., aka Mother Teresa, was leading the Dunedin march yesterday, blaming NZ men for being rapists and potential rapists.

    After his activist duty, Deep South’s Germaine Greer went to Women’s Refuge to have a drink of warm milk with some fellow feminists.

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  40. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    Nostalgia-NZ – see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture (and see how Manolo acts – attacking people who speak up is a part of protecting the culture).

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  41. nickb (3,696 comments) says:

    Very well said Nosty, and Cato earlier. I think this quote hits the nub of the issue:

    However, I’m not sure what good it will do to project your past weaknesses onto the majority of New Zealand men, who for my experience don’t share those defects. Perhaps it is a generational thing.

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  42. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Whilst the vast majority, by far, of men do not rape or commit sexual assault, those that do, tend to be repeat offenders.

    Due to the lack of willingness to put themselves through a grueling, embarrassing, and soul destroying legal process, many victims fail to report what has happened to them. They attempt to get on with their lives, many unsuccessfully.

    The perpetrator is empowered by their lack of apprehension and accountability, often getting braver, sometimes navigating from date rape, to stranger rape. Repeat sexual offenders (or rather, those that get caught but acknowledge previous acts), often report the ‘power consumes them’. As the acts become more daring and more extreme, they eventually take one too many risks and get caught, many times leaving a trail of destroyed lives behind them.

    The extent of sexual assault in NZ is not known, due to the lack of report, and therefore the lack of apprehension. Whilst females are primarily the victims, there is an unknown amount of male victims of rape. It has been estimated that as few as 10% of males that are raped report it, or tell anyone, and yet those that do report the same feelings and disruption to their lives, as female victims.

    This reflects on all of us – it builds a culture of mistrust – where the victims aren’t believed or even known, and the perpetrator becomes the winner.

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  43. Nostalgia-NZ (5,281 comments) says:

    The 4th word in that link is ‘concept’ Pete. I agree that there is a ‘concept’ abroad that there is such a culture which uses in it’s supporting arguments some of the things listed there. Still, that’s a long way from the blanket that seems to be being thrown over a large part of the population who aren’t offering excuses or apportioning blame to victims and would never do so. Putting it another way, what can possibly be achieved by such generalisations? I’ve just seen the parallel here to the situation with Peter Ellis where men flocked out of being involved in pre-school education a couple of decades ago which hasn’t yet righted itself.

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  44. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Manolo (11,249) Says:
    November 17th, 2013 at 5:20 pm

    Some New Zealand men are rapists Manolo.

    You would have to be stark raving mad to not accept that rape exists in our country.

    Does the name Teresa Cormack not mean anything to you?

    I had the unenviable task of dealing with Jules Mikus at one stage – I can assure you, he was a New Zealander, and he was a rapist, as well as a cold blooded murderer.

    You do yourself and the rest of NZ males an injustice in promoting the opinion that New Zealand men do not rape – some do. It is in my opinion the rest of you, the vast majority, that do not rape, could assist in reducing this heinous crime by accepting that it does happen, and ensuring that such behaviour is not considered normal or acceptable, let alone celebrated within the male culture.

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  45. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    Nostalgia-NZ – unless a large part of the population makes it clear they find rape and sexual abuse behaviours unacceptable their silence can be taken as tacit approval by perpetrators of abuse.

    We used to have a massive culture of drink driving, now we value safety on our roads so attitudes have been changed.

    We need to be more open and clear that we value the safety of our girls and boys girls and women (and men) who are part of awful sexual abuse statistics. The majority remaining silent hasn’t worked.

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  46. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Nostalgia NZ

    A culture is a common behaviour/practices or beliefs that exists within a specific group and is part of their shared experience/belief system.

    Therefore, a culture of rape for example can be a culture if it exists within a group of adolescents that live in one area, or perhaps a particular age group, or even an entire sex (take for example the rugby culture that is said to be dominant in NZ males).

    Under those definitions, referring to the belief that if a female is wearing a short skirt at night when she is alone, means she is asking to be raped – then it can be considered a ‘rape culture’ if there is a specific group of people that believe the same thing.

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  47. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ jackinabox (114) Says:
    November 17th, 2013 at 5:14 pm

    Not that I know of, but what would be the point unless there are steps to ensure the same kind of thinking is eradicated from the force.

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  48. Manolo (14,080 comments) says:

    Supreme sanctimony, platitudes and easily-spoken words will not solve anything.
    What’s your plan of attack, Mother Teresa?

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  49. Reid (16,634 comments) says:

    This is a fairly moving story as well. Some of you may recall it was posted previously on GD by the author. Wonder if the issues it raises in terms of the institutions involved will ever be followed up. Let’s not hold our breath.

    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/90768539/Our_experiences_on_discovering_our_daughter_was_victim_of_sexual_crimes_in_NZ.pdf

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  50. Nostalgia-NZ (5,281 comments) says:

    Okay Pete. I agree with much of your 5,48. But this…’unless a large part of the population makes it clear they find rape and sexual abuse behaviours unacceptable their silence can be taken as tacit approval by perpetrators of abuse.’

    Nobody here that I can recall has given ‘tacit approval.’ In fact many are no doubt parents, husbands, brothers – because they don’t wave a flag, in fact live their own lives in a way they are happy with for themselves and those close to them doesn’t mean in any way shape or form as ‘tacit approval.’ I think that is the gap you’re not seeing. You might be able to accept for that ‘group’ they may be offended to be ‘lumped in.’ Additionally, these arguments become superficial to the point that it is necessary to perhaps ‘march’ to proclaim a position, or even to wear a particular colour or a badge to be identified as not giving ‘tacit approval’ to a bunch of drop kicks.

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  51. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    Nobody here that I can recall has given ‘tacit approval.’

    There have been many examples here of ‘tacit approval’ at least, as per Chuck above, and as per frequent attacks on me and others for speaking up. And like Manolo’s and Kea’s ongoing attempts at harassment. By attacking people for speaking against sexual abuse they are in effect supporting those who abuse and rape. If rapists and abusers see what they post here they will feel supported. And as Judith says, when they aren’t held to account they are at high risk of offending again. And again.

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  52. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    I think part of the problem PG – and this probably limits some of the good you are trying to do – is that your salient point appears to be that criticism of you personally and the way you approach things constitutes perpetuing the rape culture. Don’t be so eagar to portray yourself as a victim and you might find it easier to get your message across.

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  53. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    Judith – do you think the approach PG is taking is a good one? As someone who appears to be on board with his message, do you think that if he talked about himself and his own feelings a little less he might get less of a rise of people?

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  54. nickb (3,696 comments) says:

    I think part of the problem PG – and this probably limits some of the good you are trying to do – is that your salient point appears to be that criticism of you personally and the way you approach things constitutes perpetuing the rape culture. Don’t be so eagar to portray yourself as a victim and you might find it easier to get your message across.

    Exactly! The over-zealous sanctimony of Pete George /Dunne / United Future rivals the Green Party as the most tedious in the NZ political sphere.

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  55. Nostalgia-NZ (5,281 comments) says:

    I’d need to read Chuck explaining his position before aligning it with what you say it means. It’s perhaps part of the vernacular which is changing, and as you say a positive step.

    It’s a stretch to have a ‘concept’ offered that debate is supporting abusers, even if ‘conceptually’ it could be accepted that abusers trawl the internet for ‘signs’ of acceptance that their activities are in anyway normal. Such people have problems far disassociated from a general population who would never support them anyway and shouldn’t be lumped in as part of their (the abusers) ‘culture.’

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  56. Reid (16,634 comments) says:

    There have been many examples here of ‘tacit approval’ at least, as per Chuck above, and as per frequent attacks on me and others for speaking up.

    Pete you’re a moron. Seriously, you are. Not only that, you’re a self-righteous moron. I mean, do you seriously think ANYONE would condone a gang of people who drag young girls into their lair and have their vicious way with them? Do you seriously think ANYONE would think that’s OK?

    I know you don’t think that, but here’s where you’re a moron.

    THAT DIDN’T HAPPEN IN THIS CASE.

    What this case is about, is some young guys getting confused over boundaries, because for decades now, feminism and sex-ed have taught girls that they shouldn’t be demur but rather they need to act like boys, and guess how boys act. And thousands and thousands of young boys have noted this behaviour amongst the girls of their age-groups, and have acted just like young boys would act, and just like you and I would act like, if girls had acted like they do now when we were their age.

    Combine that with freely-available full-penetration porn of every single perversion you can name which EVERY SINGLE YOUNG PERSON HAS WATCHED, and WTF do you think is going to happen amongst children when they’re by themselves?

    You’re a galloping moron Pete if you hallucinate that the attitudes these boys have aren’t widespread amongst the general population of young people. Sure, they aren’t going to admit that to their parents or their teachers, are they, but I guarantee that they are widespread.

    You’re a roaring moron Pete if you hallucinate that anyone is arguing that these attitudes are acceptable. Of course they aren’t. But idiots like you can’t help but conflate people who discuss the real and actual root causes of these with people who approve of them, who don’t exist, anywhere, except in your own tiny mind.

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  57. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    I’m off – but I honestly think that’s part of the issue. For whatever reason PG, you attract a lot of instinctive hostility. Not just on this matter but on basically every matter. And when your basic message is perceived as “Man – it’s amazing how much I really hate sexual abuse so much more than everybody else here. Maybe if I speak out about it they’ll become as virtuous and a good dude as I am. But if they don’t agree with me about how they all are just giving tacit consent to a rape culture, well, that will just prove that they do support a rape culture and my persecution won’t be in vain.”

    It doesn’t matter that that’s not what you intend. I don’t think you do. It’s just how you come across though.

    You might just have to accept you’re not the best person to get the results you want here.

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  58. nickb (3,696 comments) says:

    On this topic, how the fuck did I miss this post! LMAO

    http://imperatorfish.com/2013/03/08/internet-hero-just-trying-to-make-world-a-greyer-place/

    By night he is a harmless and mild-mannered man, but by day he takes on a new persona.

    A hero to many, Pete George patrols the nation’s blogsites, stifling any hint of strongly held opinion by laying down a solid suppressing fire of derailing comments.

    His tireless efforts in front of his computer have earned George the sobriquet The Beige Badger, as well as the gratitude of dozens of grey-haired, cardigan-wearing blog readers.

    To many people Pete George is a genuine superhero, keeping New Zealand’s blogsites focused on nothing much in particular.

    But George plays down any suggestion that he is a hero.

    “I’m just trying to stick up for the ordinary grey man,” he said.

    “There’s too much noise out there on the internet, and people need to take a deep breath, calm down, and do nothing.

    “I’m just out there doing what any man approaching old age and living a life of complacent and unexamined comfort would be doing, had he endless hours to while away reading blogsites.”

    George is famous for his ability to snuff out leftist conspiracies.

    Only a few days ago he exposed an ugly plot by left-wing bloggers to launch a concerted attack on all fronts on the nation’s farmers.

    One of the bloggers behind the plot, Scott Yorke, said George had put an end to his plans in no time.

    “We had all agreed during our weekly left-wing conspiracy meeting to launch simultaneous blog attacks on the hard-working and honest farming community. Martyn and I had the whole thing planned.

    “But we had barely fired off a couple of blogposts before the Beige Badger flew in and put a stop to everything.

    “A thousand curses upon the Beige Badger!” yelled Mr Yorke. “I will have my revenge!”

    But like all heroes, Pete George has a weakness. Superman had Kryptonite, and Pete George has The Standard.

    One mention of the popular leftist blogsite is enough to send the Dunedin man into an almost incontrollable frenzy, followed usually by a fainting fit.

    “That blog,” hisses George. “Please, don’t talk about that blog. Do you know they banned me? Why would they do that? What are they afraid of? Why are the left in this country so afraid of contrary opinions? It’s censorship! CENSORSHIP!”

    George begins to rail angrily against Lynn Prentice, and his eyes soon begin to roll. Within a few minutes he has passed out.

    But the Beige Badger is not inactive for very long. His comment-posting capacity is legendary, even if most of those comments are instantly forgettable.

    Some social media experts speculate that when future generations look back on the blogosphere and the reasons for its demise, they will find millions of Pete George comments and conclude that it died of boredom.

    However, the Beige Badger is not put off by such predictions.

    “I have a duty to sterilise all online political discourse in this country,” said George.

    “When people stop caring, stop believing, and stop trying, the grey men will have won. And what a glorious day that will be.”

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  59. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “…….Can you not see the inherent failure of logic in your post?

    You start off by saying that men should never be collectively viewed as potential rapists, then you assert that women always need to be cautious to avoid being raped.
    If your first premise is true, then what do women have to be cautious about?…”

    Women can view males collectivly as not being rapists, but keep in mind that some men are infact rapists.

    Women do need to be cautious of the very very few rapists amongst the 2,000,000 male kiwis. By not being alone and drunk amongst males she does not know will stop a women from becoming a victim – if a rapist is in the vacinity!

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  60. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    Judith (4,484) Says:
    November 17th, 2013 at 5:52 pm
    @ jackinabox (114) Says:
    November 17th, 2013 at 5:14 pm

    “Not that I know of, but what would be the point unless there are steps to ensure the same kind of thinking is eradicated from the force.”

    Sacking him is the only step that the other brainless buggers would understand. Sacking him would “educate” the rest of them.

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  61. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    Ok – one last thing before I go. Here’s a test PG. There are apparently no bigger enemies in the world of blogging than Peter George of Your NZ and LPrent of the Standard. I don’t know why that is – haven’t been around enough but the relationship is probably so petty because the stakes are so low.

    However, on this issue – you really do share common ground. What better way to show a strong message against the Rape Culture than by giving a guest post on Your NZ to LPrent. Or submitting your own guest post for the Standard about the Rape Culture. That would be a real show of putting pettiness aside that people might take notice of. If you could do that, I’d be much more willing to take what you say with good faith.

    However, I don’t think that’s a goer and that’s partly because I think you don’t think there’s a lot of good faith associated with your brand. That’s probably not all your fault. It’s probably inevitable given the sheer prolificness of your blogpost commenting practices.

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  62. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    Business as usual Judith

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9409609/Woman-dead-after-chase

    “Central district commander Russell Gibson said the young woman was on her learner’s licence, and was stopped by officers earlier in the evening and processed for excess breath alcohol.”

    NZ has got the Police force it deserves.

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  63. nickb (3,696 comments) says:

    What I would like to see is the actual evidence Pete has of this “rape culture”.

    Ever since he brought it up earlier in the year, his “evidence” seems to have been:

    1. A joke he heard in a bar;
    2. A few bad taste rape jokes by some KB commenters;
    3. People disagreeing with his hugely sanctimonious sermons against NZ males; and finally
    4. The allegedly criminal actions of 2-3 West Auckland teens who have been subject to trial by the NZ media and people like Pete George QC.

    So, Pete….can you actually explain what you have based your comments on?

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  64. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    5. He once gave tacit approval to actual domestic violence because he didn’t want to speak up. Therefore most NZ men do likewise.

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  65. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “…..By attacking people for speaking against sexual abuse they are in effect supporting those who abuse and rape. If rapists and abusers see what they post here they will feel supported. And as Judith says, when they aren’t held to account they are at high risk of offending again. And again…..”

    You and Judith seem to take the position that women can behave no matter how they like and that all men -including yourself- should bear all the consequences EVERYTIME a women is raped.

    Myself Kea Manolo and others don’t like it being suggested that we are potential rapists. There are over 2,000,000 males in NZ and for anyone to suggest or imply that ‘any male can be a rapist’ is plainly stupid.

    It’s like saying women can be whores. No one in the MSM or government would ever say that though! But men….we can say what we fucken like about them! Fuck men!

    Well no Pete you can’t.

    My position seems to be the better one: Women should be taught as to why rape MAY OCCURE. Being half naked on the couch with a male stranger you have bought home from the pub after suggesting sex with him – then changing your mind – is a good place to start as to HOW RAPE MAY OCCURE!

    Now I’m not saying that ‘no’ should not mean ‘no’ – what I am saying is that well OVER 1,998,000 males should not be infered as potential rapists as all those males who went home with a drunk women would stop when told to!

    We understand the meaning of ‘no’ Pete – but the government and MSM won’t change their tune – all men are rapists!

    There is no rape culture Pete – just men who are sick of males being looked upon as abusers of women, at work, in the home, in Marriage, and all the other feminist crap that goes around the MSM and government. And men hate hearing it. It’s a disgusting insult.

    Or to put it bluntly:

    Women in Labour and National and the MSM can go and fuck themselves Pete – I’m not going to – and most other males wouldn’t either – out of principal!

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  66. nickb (3,696 comments) says:

    Right!

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  67. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    Harriet. I just tried to read your post three times and I have no idea what you’re trying to say.

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  68. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    Cato, you’re confusing the trolling of a handful of people here with what everyone might think. I don’t address what I say to the trolls, I use them. They are very obliging.

    A strange ‘test’ and a very strange way for you to be “much more willing to take what you say with good faith”. There’s been plenty of discussion at The Standard on rape lately, they don’t need my input there.

    If I want something said at The Standard I don’t do it via lprent. Why don’t you submit a post to lprent for The Standard? It won’t make any difference to how I take what you say but it would be an interesting experience for you.

    However, I don’t think that’s a goer and that’s partly because I think you don’t think there’s a lot of good faith associated with your brand.

    You think too much about what I think. If that’s what you’re doing. I don’t have a brand, I’m just me, with too many people imagining too much. Interesting to see how much attention you’re giving me. Your approach has a familiarity about it.

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  69. Yvette (2,851 comments) says:

    Nearly all television ads involving men, portray them as fucking idiots, an impression reinforced but most so called comedy programmes, while everything else is male oriented crime, with a few females made to do it by or for men.
    Even news bulletins report man-made climate disasters, not person-caused weather change.

    I’m really surprized the general “rape culture” has taken so long to turn up.

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  70. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    I’m simply saying to Pete Cato – that getting all males in NZ on board and chanting ‘no’ is not going to change anything.

    Many but not all sexual assaults are the consequences of a set of conditions. Unknown company, alcohol, ignorance, previous converstations ect. Simply being ‘male’ has nothing to do with it other than the fact it is done by males. Hence the reason that female rape is never mentioned.

    And over 1,998,000 males should not be stigmitised by rape when they live day to day 24/7/365 and obey the ‘no’ law!

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  71. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Cato (968) Says:
    November 17th, 2013 at 6:31 pm

    Cato, you’re asking someone of the wrong sex and experience. Women talk about their personal feelings more than men, so I don’t notice when I read such things in comments.

    Secondly, having worked with many offenders, I know that the ability not to talk about their emotions and personal thoughts to others, has in many cases contributed to their offending, due to the built up negative emotions. In short I’ve seen the sad side of how not talking about how you feel, can eventually affect the lives of others, as well as the person themselves.

    BUT – I do acknowledge that men find it difficult to talk about emotions etc, and often regard males that do find it easier, with great suspicion.

    I can’t offer an objective opinion regarding what PG has to say sorry. I do know that he does appear to have given the subject a great deal of thought, and possibly from his stand point has had the personal experience of knowing someone that has been a victim – such an experience usually creates a greater understanding of the emotional issues involved.
    I regard PG’s expression as a demonstration of empathy. From my girly position, its not bad, or foreign.

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  72. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    Yeah I know. You are a strange duck – but if you weren’t so ubiquitous always popping up with your uninteresting opinions expressed in such an interestingly pompous way I probably wouldn’t give it a second thought. Also, it’s just hard to understand the mindset of someone who thinks MOST NZ men are involved in a rape culture.

    Go on – it would be a good show to the blogging community if you were to reconcile with your nemesis over this issue of mutual agreement. It would make people see how seriously you take it.

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  73. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    Yvette (2,564) Says:
    November 17th, 2013 at 7:31 pm
    Nearly all television ads involving men, portray them as fucking idiots, an impression reinforced but most so called comedy programmes,

    And most female comedians resort to sexual innuendo and/or outright filth nearly every time they “perform”.

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  74. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/sandra-bernhard-issues-gang-rape-warning-sarah-palin-article-1.321411

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  75. Reid (16,634 comments) says:

    I regard PG’s expression as a demonstration of empathy.

    You mean like some lefty politicians on $150k+ like to pretend they empathise with the people who give them the job that gives them the salary Judith?

    Seriously, empathy is fine and appropriate when you’re comforting a victim, but when you’re analysing a social dynamic, which this is, then you need to put on the intellectual hard-hat and leave the bleeding heart at the door, otherwise you’ll never get to the root cause.

    And that doesn’t mean you don’t retain your empathy with the human tragedy, it simply means you place it into its proper place in the context of your analysis.

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  76. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ nickb (3,065) Says:
    November 17th, 2013 at 7:02 pm

    Pete is not the only person who refers to the ‘rape culture’.
    However, there appears to be no consensus as to exactly what ‘rape culture’ refers to.

    The phenomena is well known and has been in popular discourse for sometime, and yet, despite that, no one seems to be able to define exactly what it is.

    My own understanding is that it refers to the manner in which rape is ‘excused’ by blaming the victim. That is, that they must have contributed in some way to what happened to them, and therefore, the rapist is not to blame, and only acting upon his primal urges. It has become a culture because it is a belief that is accepted by a group of people, who all share the same value.

    The issue of whether the same ‘culture’ (belief) exists within a large number of NZ male psyche, is what is being questioned.

    I would say from what I have read recently that there is evidence (as per my definition) that there is a ‘rape culture’ within a significant number of New Zealanders, which believe ‘bad things only happen to bad people’, and therefore, the victim, by wearing a provocative outfit was bad, and deserved to be punished. Historically societies have gone to great lengths to excuse the male from certain ‘primal urges’ and expected females to be more ‘civilised’ and adapted to socialisation than males. (e.g. it is accepted for a male to pee behind a tree – it is frowned upon for a female to do the same).

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  77. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ reid

    Did you not notice that I made that statement with the supposition that PG has some experience or close knowledge of someone that has been raped.

    Does leaving the hard hat at the door require agreeing with the prevailing view that if you are out in the dark at night, you are asking to be raped?

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  78. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    But you do agree there is quite a different thing between blaming a victim and advising someone not to do something that will expose them to risk, right?

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  79. Reid (16,634 comments) says:

    It has become a culture because it is a belief that is accepted by a group of people, who all share the same value. The issue of whether the same ‘culture’ (belief) exists within a large number of NZ male psyche, is what is being questioned.

    What is “it,” Judith?

    Do you think this case is about some young guys who dragged young girls kicking and screaming into their lair and had their vicious way with them?

    Yes, or no?

    And if it’s no, then what pray tell do you think happened in this case?

    And the important question, is WHY.

    What made 15-17 y.o. children, and they are children, think like that?

    That’s the critical question.

    Edit:

    Does leaving the hard hat at the door require agreeing with the prevailing view that if you are out in the dark at night, you are asking to be raped?

    No. It’s got nothing to do with ‘asking for it’ Judith. Rape never has had anything to do with that. Otherwise it’s not rape, is it.

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  80. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    Do you think this case is about some young guys who dragged young girls kicking and screaming into their lair and had their vicious way with them?

    No, Reid, the allegations are that these are cases where young men took advantage of young women too drunk and/or too young to give consent.

    But that is ok with you (apparently.)

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  81. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “…..Seriously, empathy is fine and appropriate when you’re comforting a victim, but when you’re analysing a social dynamic, which this is, then you need to put on the intellectual hard-hat and leave the bleeding heart at the door, otherwise you’ll never get to the root cause.

    And that doesn’t mean you don’t retain your empathy with the human tragedy, it simply means you place it into its proper place in the context of your analysis……”

    Very very well put Reid.

    Getting nearly all 2,000,000 males on board and suggesting that some women should be more cautious is a good start – as all us males were all once ‘part of the rape culture’ and understand fully why we all used to go about raping women morning noon and night.

    But then women like Judith never did pay much attention to real males like us Reid. :cool:

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  82. Nostalgia-NZ (5,281 comments) says:

    ‘The phenomena is well known and has been in popular discourse for sometime, and yet, despite that, no one seems to be able to define exactly what it is.’

    Exactly Judith. The very reason why it raises objections, justifiably.

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  83. Reid (16,634 comments) says:

    No, Reid, the allegations are that these are cases where young men took advantage of young women too drunk and/or too young to give consent.

    But that is ok with you (apparently.)

    Yes I know those are the allegations, and no it’s not OK. I’m asking you to consider, what is the environment that we cognisant adults have subjected our young people to for year after year after year as they were changing from children into adults?

    Is it OK to ask that bhudson or do you think that’s not at all relevant to the question?

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  84. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Reid (14,334) Says:
    November 17th, 2013 at 7:49 pm

    If you read the whole statement or even the paragraph in which you decided to select only a small part of, you might actually be able to work that out for yourself.

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  85. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Nostalgia-NZ (4,159) Says:
    November 17th, 2013 at 7:55 pm

    Exactly, which is why it has continued to exist. Until there is some sort of consensus on exactly what the issues are, there is no way the beliefs associated can be altered.

    @ harriet

    If you and Reid are examples of real men, then I’m definitely coming back as a lesbian in my next life!

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  86. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    or do you think that’s not at all relevant to the question?

    I think it is 100% completely irrelevant as to whether or not it was rape

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  87. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Reid

    Why it happen?

    I’m not sure, there are a number of possible causes. Just taking one of them for the sake of a discussion.

    Americanisation of the Globe, which has allowed destructive ideologies based on prison culture to invade popular media, and therefore infect the minds of those who are most exposed to it.

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  88. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “…..I would say from what I have read recently that there is evidence (as per my definition) that there is a ‘rape culture’ within a significant number of New Zealanders, which believe ‘bad things only happen to bad people’, and therefore, the victim, by wearing a provocative outfit was bad, and deserved to be punished….”

    Judith – that’s called Karma.

    ‘Rape culture’ is nothing more than a disgusting slogan thrown at males who dare question why some types of women are more likely to be the victims of sexual assaults than other types.

    Tamahere is right about one thing Judith – what are 13yld girls doing drinking with 17yld males?

    They are rape conditions……right Judith? – or didn’t rape happen? :cool:

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  89. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    Society at tipping point over ‘rape culture’ – Judith Collins

    Justice Minister Judith Collins says the treatment of sexual assault victims has reached a tipping point and there is a real move to stop blaming victims.

    Speaking on TVNZ’s Q+A programme, Ms Collins said the public was right to be disgusted by the behaviour of a group called the Roast Busters, who bragged online about having sex with drunk and underage teenage girls.

    She agreed society had reached a tipping point about the way victims were treated.

    “And I think there’s a real move to say that we should stop blaming victims.”

    She said questions would always be asked about whether anything could be done to prevent the crime.

    “The best place obviously is to prevent it, but it’s also about trying to take the blame off victims and encouraging them to come forward.

    “And I think if more victims were able to come forward and to have their stories told and the offenders to be confronted with that, we might have fewer people who think it’s alright to do this sort of thing to someone else.”

    Ms Collins said rape was nothing to do with what a victim wore or did.

    “Having said that, unless we actually address those issues, and unless we actually stand up to that sort of abusive comment to victims, then we will continue to see those sorts of behaviours spoken about in that way.”

    She said embarrassment was part of what stopped victims coming forward.

    “It’s an incredibly humiliating thing for anyone to have to talk about, and it’s not as though it’s a crime where someone say breaks into your car and steals it.

    “These people break in as such and what they do is they take something away from that person – they take their dignity and they essentially effect their soul. And this is a crime that lives with a victim every single day of their lives.”

    Ms Collins is looking into proposals by the Law Commission that would increase protection for complainants in rape cases.

    The changes include providing a support person for young complainants giving evidence in court, and giving complainants notice if their previous sexual history was going to be discussed in court.

    “I would never ever suggest for a moment that whatever is proposed, in terms of our court processes, would ever take away the feeling of being re-victimised, for a victim who has to relive what has happened.

    “But you can’t have a rape case occur if the victim can’t actually say what’s happened. It’s very difficult for anyone to defend themselves, and I don’t want to see miscarriages of justice on either side.”

    Ms Collins was looking at restorative justice.

    “What we know is that quite a lot of those people who do complain to police as victims of sexual assault are actually assaulted by people who are close to them – either partners, former partners, friends, family members.

    “And sometimes they don’t want, those victims, to have to go to court. They also don’t want to necessarily see the accused end up in jail for up to 20 years, because rape is treated extremely seriously in this country.

    “What thy do want is they want abuse to stop, they want the offender to confess to what they’ve done, to acknowledge the harm that they’ve caused and to help give back that person’s dignity.

    “And I think it’s that loss of dignity which continues to live with the victim forever.”

    Any change in court processes would go to Cabinet this year before being passed into law next year.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11158621

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  90. Reid (16,634 comments) says:

    If you read the whole statement or even the paragraph in which you decided to select only a small part of, you might actually be able to work that out for yourself.

    Yes well I’m afraid Judith despite the public hysteria desperately attempting to paint the case as something where some young guys dragged young girls kicking and screaming into their lair and had their vicious way with them, that’s not my reading of it.

    My reading of it is that some immature children of both sexes, having been saturated with bad influences through media and the general noise that permeates our young people on a daily basis including the poisonous feminist education given to young girls, came together and acted out what they’ve been taught to do by said media and influences, which includes not just porn but all TV, education, peer pressure and all the rest of it.

    No doubt the trial when it eventually happens will pick over in great detail all the details leading up to and during the incidents in question, but the clear and present difficulty to me in this is, is the lack of mens rea. I don’t think it was there, simple as that.

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  91. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Harriet

    Are you so out of touch with humanity that you do not know the average female matures 2-3 years younger than males? It is the social standard that states people are children until 16, unfortunately nature had no say in that decision, however, as a civilised society, we expect behaviour to be within the law.

    Just because someone has a drink with another person, that is does not mean they are exposing themselves willingly to a situation that could result in rape. Your argument is ridiculous – maybe you need your sexual partners to be drunk, which is why you make that association, but the majority of us don’t.

    Your argument is as ridiculous as the argument that young girls dress provocatively to impress males. Overwhelmingly research has demonstrated that young females dress to impress their peers – that is, keep up with the fashions other young females wear.

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  92. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ harriet

    So what exactly is the ‘rape culture’ Harriet – please define it?

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  93. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Reid (14,336) Says:
    November 17th, 2013 at 8:16 pm

    So in essence you support rape if the circumstances are right. How very christian of you!

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  94. Reid (16,634 comments) says:

    Overwhelmingly research has demonstrated that young females dress to impress their peers – that is, keep up with the fashions other young females wear.

    Yes that’s true Judith, but why do other young females wear what they wear?

    So in essence you support rape if the circumstances are right. How very christian of you!

    No I don’t support rape in any circumstance. I just don’t think on the facts we know so far in this case, that this was. I may be wrong.

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  95. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    but why do other young females wear what they wear?

    [to] “keep up with the fashions other young females wear.”

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  96. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    My reading of it is that some immature children of both sexes, having been saturated with bad influences through media and the general noise that permeates our young people on a daily basis including the poisonous feminist education given to young girls, came together and acted out what they’ve been taught to do by said media and influences, which includes not just porn but all TV, education, peer pressure and all the rest of it.

    Or, Reid’s ‘argument’ in plain English: If young women dress in a manner that could possibly be perceived as promiscuous, have ever has sex before and/or drink, then it’s “good to go” and open season for the boys.

    Interesting set of values there Reid

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  97. Reid (16,634 comments) says:

    [to] “keep up with the fashions other young females wear.”

    bhudson, root cause analysis. Why did x happen. Because of y. Why did y happen. Because of z. Why did z happen. etc.

    Elementary tool mate, if you want the truth. Of course if you’re interested in propaganda, stop at y and you’re made.

    Or, Reid’s ‘argument’ in plain English: If young women dress in a manner that could possibly be perceived as promiscuous, have ever has sex before and/or drink, then it’s “good to go” and open season for the boys.

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  98. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    ^^ No Reid, it’s just that you are so wrapped up in conspiracies and that sort of thinking that you think you had to “square the circle” when the obvious was you just had to complete it

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  99. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “…..Ms Collins said rape was nothing to do with what a victim wore or did…”

    So now Collins is telling us that no rapes in NZ are opportunistic or the result of a set of circumstances that couldn’t be prevented. Even prevention by telling women as to how rape MAY OCCURE.

    But that’s what dads and mums already do – tell there sons and daughters how rape may occure.

    Collins won’t stop women from becoming the victims of rape because she is part of the ‘rape culture’ – excusing people for their actions – or lack of – I’m not talking about the victims – but their parents!

    Some women will still be raped due to a set of circumstances as society will always have rapists. Women will always need to be cautious. Collins should just get on with saying as much.

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  100. Reid (16,634 comments) says:

    Or, Reid’s ‘argument’ in plain English: If young women dress in a manner that could possibly be perceived as promiscuous, have ever has sex before and/or drink, then it’s “good to go” and open season for the boys.

    Interesting set of values there Reid

    Social mores influence young people and that’s what I am saying. If you wish to twist that into some falsehood that’s regrettable, but not surprising for you.

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  101. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    ^^ Or another Reidism: “Social mores excuse rape”

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  102. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    BUGGER the cops!

    A day after thousands marched against rape culture, police may have the breakthrough they need in the Roast Busters case.

    A west Auckland teen who says she was violated by the group when she was 13 has laid her second official complaint, and if police again fail to act, plans are afoot for a private prosecution against the young men.

    As well as the formal complaint, 3 News has also learned that since the police 0800 number was set up this week, the inquiry team has been contacted by several people claiming to have information about alleged incidents with the Roast Busters and underage girls.

    All police will say is they have had a good response, and the investigation is progressing.

    The teen who first blew the whistle on the group of west Auckland boys two weeks ago says when she complained in 2011 about her alleged rape, she was scared.

    Police found there wasn’t enough evidence, and made her feel at fault.

    Now, retired accountant Graham McCready wants to help victims like her with a private prosecution.

    “There’s such a public interest that will drive this thing forward [that] I think a judge will bend over backwards to ensure it does,” he says.

    Mr McCready successfully pushed for a private prosecution in the John Banks electoral fraud case, and believes the boys’ actions on Facebook naming and shaming girls would be a starting point to get a judge to summons any perpetrator to court.

    “Obviously the survivors will be feeling extremely unsafe, so I think there is a reasonable argument that re publicising that online… I think that is a reasonable argument that would constitute harassment,” he says.

    Mr McCready would love to see more serious charges explored, but if he is to get anything in front of a judge he’ll need affidavits from the young women, who say they are still reeling years on.

    3 News

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Private-case-possible-over-Roast-Busters/tabid/423/articleID/321701/Default.aspx#ixzz2kt18Kzti

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  103. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “…..Just because someone has a drink with another person, that is does not mean they are exposing themselves willingly to a situation that could result in rape. Your argument is ridiculous – maybe you need your sexual partners to be drunk, which is why you make that association, but the majority of us don’t….”

    I never said that Judith. I said that there is a set of circumstances where some women are more likely to be raped in. Unknown males, alcohol, ignorance, unknown place, type of conversation, erotic surroundings, ect.

    And I’d even include ‘what takes the eye of the beholder’ – that may mean blond hair or large breasts – and dare I say it Judith – short skirts!

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  104. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    ^^ Spoken just like a “Jake the Muss”, Harriet

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  105. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    Huddy I’m not saying women shouldn’t wear short skirts – I can’t say that anyway as my wife was a model for years and my daughters wear short skirts. Of course the older ones drink to. They also talk at hotels ect with people they don’t know.

    But they are always with people they do know, at all times, don’t drink heavily, and don’t ‘wander alone in the company of men they don’t know’. Nor do they treat men as second class citizens.

    It’s a matter of security Huddy. Common sense. Unfortunatly society will always have rapists.

    As a husband and father I don’t take rape as a minor thing Huddy.

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  106. bhudson (4,741 comments) says:

    Unfortunatly society will always have rapists.

    All the more reason why we should never excuse them

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  107. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    Harriet – are you aware that most rapists aren’t people the victim doesn’t know?

    “Most people know their rapist and they are usually a friend, partner, ex-partner or relative.”
    http://www.rapeandabuse.co.nz/what-is-rape/

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  108. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “….Unfortunatly society will always have rapists.

    All the more reason why we should never excuse them….”

    I’m not excusing them Huddy.

    How would I excuse myself if I didn’t tell my daughters to be precautious and cautious?

    How some girls fathers can live with the fact they didn’t do anything about their daughter’s welfare is beyond me.
    You even read it here at KB “I’d shoot the bastard if…” Why – your daughters already been raped. What’s the point taking action afterwards – taking action in educating your daughter is the only thing you should be thinking about doing.

    If I was allowed I’d buy my wife and daughters handguns as another defence.

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  109. Harriet (5,145 comments) says:

    “….Harriet – are you aware that most rapists aren’t people the victim doesn’t know?…”

    Yeah I do know that Pete – but it is a false sense of security for women to base their security on just one or two things such as that. Alone, drunk, and with men you don’t know ect is not an ideal situation for a women of any age to be in. I don’t excuse rapists Pete and I do see where you are coming from in your comments. I’m just looking at it from the sole perspective that women should take care of themselves in general where personal security is concerned. I’m looking at rape prevention as that seems to be over looked.

    People may think I’m trying to say that women should be better behaved, I’m not, I’m saying that they can enjoy themselves as much as they like – but in the right situation with the right people. They are simply decreasing the odds of being raped. Cheers Pete.

    Edit: The ‘known rapist’ is not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the opportunistic rapist or the male who is drunk and alone with a women he does not know where sex has been previously discussed.

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  110. Albert_Ross (311 comments) says:

    Could somebody please set out objectively what are known to be the actual facts of the Roastbusters case?

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  111. wikiriwhis business (4,135 comments) says:

    ‘Could somebody please set out objectively what are known to be the actual facts of the Roastbusters case?’

    context is un PC in this day and age

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  112. wikiriwhis business (4,135 comments) says:

    ‘If I was allowed I’d buy my wife and daughters handguns as another defence.’

    Wonder how a jury would treat a rape defence with a loaded weapon?

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  113. wikiriwhis business (4,135 comments) says:

    ‘So what exactly is the ‘rape culture’ Harriet – please define it?’

    you just trying to create an argument to tangle some one in their words.

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  114. wikiriwhis business (4,135 comments) says:

    ‘NZ has got the Police force it deserves.’

    From Feb 2014 dirvers with unpaid fines will lose their licence.

    This of course will create disqualified drivers police claimed were responsible for so much harm on the roads.

    Funny how they gone quiet on that issue lately

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  115. wikiriwhis business (4,135 comments) says:

    ‘“I have a duty to sterilise all online political discourse in this country,” said George.’

    what John McCain describes as ‘chatter’

    to be squashed at all costs

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  116. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    A culture is a common behaviour/practices or beliefs that exists within a specific group and is part of their shared experience/belief system.

    Therefore, a culture of rape for example can be a culture if it exists within a group of adolescents that live in one area, or perhaps a particular age group, or even an entire sex (take for example the rugby culture that is said to be dominant in NZ males).

    Under those definitions, referring to the belief that if a female is wearing a short skirt at night when she is alone, means she is asking to be raped – then it can be considered a ‘rape culture’ if there is a specific group of people that believe the same thing.

    The problem with this is that calling it a “rape culture” is a wild exaggeration, and involves hidden but dubious assumptions. There may indeed be beliefs that are widespread in NZ that make it harder for rapes to be prosecuted or reported, but those beliefs are on the wane.

    If you want to see a genuine rape culture, visit Egypt – there you will see the full force of these medieval attitudes. Trying to say that the same is true of New Zealand is risible.

    In NZ “rape culture” is the province of feminist academics. I’ve dealt with these people: they are horrendously stupid and the only reason their pseudo-intellectual, cultish bullshit is tolerated in the academy is for political reasons.

    The central problem with doing something about rape in our society is that the self-appointed vanguards of the anti-rape movement are nut cases.

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  117. wikiriwhis business (4,135 comments) says:

    ‘If you want to see a genuine rape culture, visit Egypt – there you will see the full force of these medieval attitudes. Trying to say that the same is true of New Zealand is risible.’

    But you’ve just inspired me that Muslims cannot get a real foothold in NZ society.

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  118. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    But you’ve just inspired me that Muslims cannot get a real foothold in NZ society.

    There aren’t enough of them to make a difference. But it is true that many Muslim male immigrants have pretty sad attitudes towards women. Just like a lot of the Saffers are borderline racists.

    Foreigners out!

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  119. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    I guess that makes a change from victim blaming – blame those who try to improve things instead. Yes, some have ideas of extreme solutions but that doesn’t negate the need to change attitudes and police practices.

    This example is not good timing for the police:

    Police officer admits sex charges

    A Christchurch police officer told a suspected drink driver that any charges would go away if she performed oral sex on him, a court heard today.

    Senior Constable Gordon Stanley Meyer, 45, today admitted a corruption and bribery charge at the High Court in Christchurch.

    He also pleaded guilty to an indecent assault of an 18-year-old woman he groped while giving her a lift between pubs while on duty in his marked patrol car.

    It wasn’t just one-off incident, after both cases he kept trying to contact them by phone numerous times.

    A successful prosecution in this case “the result of public support, with the police investigation team investing some 9000 hours of work and taking more than 80 statements during what had been a “complex and challenging” investigation” but not surprisingly police haven’t ruled out the possibility of other victims.

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  120. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    It’s good to see the Justice Minister on the right track – Collins pushes for culture change.

    While she has ruled out specialist sexual violence courts, which supporters say would make it easier for victims, she said victims needed to be encouraged to come forward to shed more light on the cases which might help change attitudes.

    The way sexual assault victims are dealt with by police and the courts in New Zealand has been under heavy scrutiny as a result of the so-called Roast Busters sex case.

    Opposition parties and rape prevention groups say the system needs to be overhauled to make it easier for victims of sexual assaults to come forward.

    “Of course there is always questions going to be asked about was there something that could have been done to prevent the crime, and that’s the best place obviously, to prevent it, but it’s also about trying to take the blame off victims and encouraging them to come forward,” she said.

    “I think if more victims were able to come forward and to have their stories told, and the offenders to be confronted with that, we might have fewer people who think its alright to do this sort of thing to someone else.”

    Ms Collins said she was considering some changes to court processes. “The changes about court processes, that is a draft Cabinet paper with me at the moment, and that will go to Cabinet hopefully this year for the little bit of time we have got left and then it will proceed through next year.” She said many were not coming forward because it was “an incredibly humiliating thing” for victims to talk about and they did not want to keep reliving it.

    While she did not want to lessen the criminality of the offending, one of the options presented in the Cabinet paper included restorative justice because some victims were in relationships with their attackers.

    “What we know is that quite a lot of those people who do complain to police – as victims of sexual assault are actually assaulted by people who are close to them, either partners, former partners, friends or family members – and sometimes they don’t want those victims to have to go to court. They also don’t want to necessarily see the accused end up in jail for up to 20 years . . .

    “What they do want is they want abuse to stop, they want the offender to confess to what they’ve done, to acknowledge the harm that they’ve caused and to help give back that person’s dignity.”

    Ms Collins said victims would need to be questioned as those accused of assaults needed to be able to defend themselves “because it is not inconceivable that people might be convicted wrongly of rape”.

    Victims worried about previous sexual history could be advised about the questions that might come up, she said.

    “And I don’t want to see miscarriages on either side.”

    The change would take time but there was support in New Zealand for them to be made.

    A lot of support.

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  121. wikiriwhis business (4,135 comments) says:

    ‘ successful prosecution in this case “the result of public support,’

    In one case there was a witness in the car. Didn’t prove to be a deterrent to the officer.

    Smells of a pattern in the police force.

    Certainly police have been proven to be liars in the roast busters case.

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  122. wikiriwhis business (4,135 comments) says:

    ‘It’s good to see the Justice Minister on the right track – Collins pushes for culture change.’

    A good vote crusade for 2014

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  123. Tom Jackson (2,553 comments) says:

    I guess that makes a change from victim blaming – blame those who try to improve things instead. Yes, some have ideas of extreme solutions but that doesn’t negate the need to change attitudes and police practices.

    No. The whole thing is misconceived, and means that we aren’t able to have a mature and realistic discussion about sex crime in our society.

    Too many people insist on seeing sex crime through an ideological prism. A case in point is so-called “rape culture”. What you’re being asked to swallow without noticing by people who advocate this concept is a cultural explanation of crime, because these people tend to think that all wrongs are properly explained in terms of culture.

    Women have a lesser status in a society? That’s because we have a patriarchal culture?

    People robbing each other for mobile phones? That’s because of consumer culture.

    Women spending all their time worrying about their appearance? That’s because our culture is sexist.

    And so on… blah blah blah.

    Now I don’t think that anyone would not admit that cultural norms have some effect on people’s behaviour, but to say that only cultural norms do is clearly absurd. Yet this is the bullshit we’re being asked to swallow because it suits the academic agendas of a very small number of people.

    Do you want to know the real reason men rape women? It’s because rape has been a successful reproductive strategy for almost all of human history. Sexually aggressive men passed their genes down to the products of their sexual aggression.

    You know why women abhor and fear rape? That’s because that’s an evolutionarily successful trait too. It’s the counter to rape as a successful male reproductive strategy.

    To anyone who’s familiar with Darwin, this is perfectly obvious, but feminists, like the religious fundamentalists they resemble, haven’t heard the news.

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  124. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    Tom, you’re contradicting yourself and making claims you can’t possibly know.

    It’s because rape has been a successful reproductive strategy for almost all of human history.

    Where’s the evidence of this? You can’t have any.

    If it was correct why do only a minority of men rape? How can rape be successful if countering rape is also successful?

    Anyone who’s familiar with Darwin will know there is huge diversity in reproductive habits across species and within species.

    It sounds like you are making excuses for rape because historically some men have raped. Historically some men have murdered so should we just shrug that off as something men have always done? Torture? Pillaging? Sacking? Enslaving?

    Or should we decide we want to live in a civil society in the 21st century?

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  125. unaha-closp (1,180 comments) says:

    You gotta love the Auckland media.

    First there was a full court press to slut shame Bevan Chuang as a weak minded, delusional publicity seeking, moron. A woman who deserved to be fondled by the mayor and everything else. With a side dish of probably lying at the request of some nefarious forces.

    Then the next week the same media is confronted by roast busters. Suddenly doubting the pure and virtuous statements of the girls involved is akin to raping them all over again. The suggestion that they might have been even slightly exaggerating or silly becomes a sacking offence.

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  126. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    Wha-fuck?

    I dont think Tom Jackson was excusing rape as being justifed morally. I think he was trying to explain it in biological rather than sociological terms. Part of being civilised means suppressing biological imperatives.

    The fact that you would so readily jump to that conclusion shows how counter productive your speaking out is. Im coming to think that that its in fact YOUR complete dickishness that is emboldening the more troglodytic commenters here.

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  127. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    Is resorting to personal abuse revealing troglodytic urges?

    Part of being civilised means suppressing biological imperatives.

    Our primal biological imperative is to procreate and then to protect our young until they can survive on there own. You don’t have to suppress anything to do that with a willing partner.

    You might feel like you have to suppress biological imperatives but I don’t and I’m sure others don’t.

    Rape in the modern world is not about procreating, it is about power and dominance. Rapists tend to not care about having children, inflicting harm and degradation is not an biological imperative. Rapists are social failures.

    I have never felt any urge to rape. I have always felt the imperative to have consensual sex. Obviously some people feel different but far from everyone. Most people commenting here say they condemn and deplore rape. I take that as meaning they don’t feel a biological imperative to rape. Perhaps that’s not always the case and some suppress urges but I doubt I’m unique.

    My guess is that a biological imperative to protect females is far more prevalent than an urge to harm females. That is between partners, father to daughter, within social groups and even amongst strangers.

    Many here say there’s a social imperative (or at least an advantage) to have two loving parent families. Some go as far as saying marriage is a longstanding natural union. Forced sex is not compatible with that.

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  128. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    So now you are accusing me of being a would be rapist? I am a civilised person PG, who was lucky enough to be inculcated in a civilised world where the virtues of compassion and empathy have been transmitted to me from birth. The only biological urge I ever have to suppress is the urge to punch annoying men in the mouth from time to time.

    But when the mask of civilisation slips the results are pretty horrific.

    Look at how often rape is used as a weapon of war. Read Berlin by Anthony Beavor if you want to see how men loosed from civilisation behave.

    I’ve tried to give you the benefit of the doubt mate, but I’m telling you that you are part of the problem. The reason is that your (apparently completely unjustified) sense of smugness and self worth is just too grating to the point where it undermines your cause.

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  129. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    If you’re actually interested in getting to the heart of the subject – instead of just deluding yourself that by being a self-regarding dick on Kiwiblog, you might like to try reading some of the scholarship of Susan Brownmiller on the subject.

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  130. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    So now you are accusing me of being a would be rapist?

    No. You effectively accused yourself and all men of being would be rapists -“Part of being civilised means suppressing biological imperatives”. But you contradict that point with ” the virtues of compassion and empathy have been transmitted to me from birth”.

    Or do you mean that rapists can’t suppress biological imperatives but people like you (and I) are born without those same biological imperatives?

    Look at how often rape is used as a weapon of war. Read Berlin by Anthony Beavor if you want to see how men loosed from civilisation behave.

    Some men. No biological imperatives involved. No excuse.

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  131. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    The only biological urge I ever have to suppress is the urge to punch annoying men in the mouth from time to time.

    Because you disagree with them. And you resort to abuse. If you are actually interested in getting to the heart of the subject you could reconsider your claim “I am a civilised person”.

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  132. graham (2,346 comments) says:

    Much against my better judgement, I am going to join in here.

    The hostility against Pete on this particular subject started, I believe, with this post:

    ‘La Grand Fomage’ comments:

    Firstly, I want to state that I think rape is an appaling crime committed by cowards.

    That said…back of the envelope calculations show me the 99.9914% of the NZ male population are not rapists and have, most likely, never ever entertained the thought of raping someone.

    I disputed that:

    I challenge you on 99.9914%. I think rapists are a small minority of males (and it should be said a very small minority of females), but I’d be very surprised if the minority is that small.

    And there are many more men, possible a majority, who aid rape by:
    – being an active participant in the rape culture
    – passively ignoring rape culture

    Both active and passive in the rape culture can encourage those who actually rape, and it doesn’t challenge their behaviour.

    (Emphasis added)

    It has been pointed out, time and again, that accusing the majority of men of aiding rape is a raw slap in the face to all decent law-abiding men who don’t hesitate to help people who are in trouble (which is most of us) at best. At worst, it can be seen as a very nasty accusation. But Pete … just … doesn’t … get it. Pete interprets any disagreement with him as vindication of his theory, and points to it as “proof” that rape culture exists, it’s a massive problem, he’s right and everybody who disagrees with him is wrong.

    It’s worth pointing out here that there is widespread disagreement universally over what defines a rape culture and to what degree a given society meets the criteria to be considered a rape culture. And there are well-known and respected people, including feminists, who have disputed the existence of rape culture, and have argued that the common “one in four women will be raped in her lifetime” is based on a flawed study, but frequently cited because it leads to campus anti-rape groups receiving public funding.

    Anybody who engages in a discussion on rape culture MUST be willing to examine BOTH sides of the argument. Not state “this is my opinion”, then claim that anybody who disagrees is “proof” that their opinion is correct. Pete – and, it must be said, other people also – are guilty of coming at this highly emotive subject with a pre-formed view which they will not budge from. Which is the surest way to raise people’s hackles.

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  133. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    I said possibly a majority graham, there is no way of knowing how many.

    Would you say that a majority of men have done all they could do to oppose a culture of rape and abuse, and demeaning and disrespectful behaviour? Or have many of us remained quiet because we didn’t think it was our problem?

    If more men made it clear that rape was abhorrent and totally unacceptable in our society do you think it would deter some of the minority of men who rape? Some will never be deterred but whether they raped or not I expect the Roast Busters will take more care with their sexual activities now.

    Anybody who engages in a discussion on rape culture MUST be willing to examine BOTH sides of the argument.

    Interesting then that my comments are being requoted and examined and questioned. MUST you be willing to examine comments and commenters from the other side of the argument to the same degree? I haven’t seen anything like that, in fact you have appeared to have pointedly ignored some quite extreme comments and commenters from the other side. I look forward to your examination of them.

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  134. unaha-closp (1,180 comments) says:

    Pete,

    MUST you be willing to examine comments and commenters from the other side of the argument to the same degree? I haven’t seen anything like that, in fact you have appeared to have pointedly ignored some quite extreme comments and commenters from the other side. I look forward to your examination of them.

    No, we don’t.

    When one side of this “debate” is using an isolated abhorrent event to conduct a long winded, unsubstantiated moral argument to change society. The onus is entirely upon the accusatory moral crusaders to support their arguments.

    The otherside is not another singular side, it is everybody else who have a wide variety of diverse opinions and of course some of them are crazy. But the other side is at least not asking society to change its behaviour to conform to a set of made up criteria.

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  135. Pete George (23,687 comments) says:

    But the other side is at least not asking society to change its behaviour to conform to a set of made up criteria.

    There are a small number of people saying nothing is wrong and/or nothing needs changing.

    And there are many people saying that there is much wrong and that our society needs to change – not to “a made up criteria” but to a decent standard for a modern civil society.

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  136. graham (2,346 comments) says:

    There are very few people who would say “nothing is wrong and nothing needs changing”. But that is quite different to the discussions going on about rape culture. There is a substantial number of people who are raising serious concerns about the rape culture hysteria that has seized a good proportion of the Western world. These people are not necessarily saying that a rape culture doesn’t exist in some form among some pockets of society; they are however questioning the extent of it, the statistics used to justify the actions being taken or demanded, the methodology used in research.

    Google “rape culture false” and start educating yourself on both sides of the argument.

    These people are simply advocating for due process, rules of evidence, basic justice and true gender equality, and saying that proponents of these must speak up so their voice is heard above people such as “f*ckrapeculture” alarmists.

    They also point out that a false accusation of rape can have devastating, life-altering consequences. They remind us that institutions such as universities, where strident groups such as “f*ckrapeculture” are active, have an obligation to protect the rights of all students – both victims of sexual assault and the accused.

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  137. graham (2,346 comments) says:

    In 2006 three Duke University lacrosse players were falsely accused of gang rape. They endured a nightmarish, yearlong ordeal in which abundant evidence of their innocence seemed not to matter at all—not to the police, not to the prosecutor, not to Duke’s faculty or president. Protesters gathered outside the lacrosse house carrying a banner with the word CASTRATE, banging pots and pans, and chanting “Confess, confess!” Student vigilantes plastered the campus with “Wanted” posters bearing the players’ photographs. Duke professors took out an ad in a local newspaper in support of the pot bangers and poster wielders. After living under suspicion for months, the players were ultimately exonerated by prosecutors, who dropped all charges: The athletes had been wrongly accused, and the North Carolina district attorney who had flamboyantly pressed and publicized the charges later recused himself and resigned, and was investigated and disbarred for unethical conduct in his prosecution of the case.

    The U.S. Department of Education’s assistant secretary for civil rights, Russlynn H. Ali, asserts that rape on campuses has reached epidemic levels, citing a study that states that 19 percent, or almost one in five women, will be a victim of assault or attempted assault during their college years.

    But is that figure accurate or even plausible? Research on sexual assault is notoriously hard to conduct, and the studies are wildly inconsistent. A 2003 Bureau of Justice Statistics special report, “Violent Victimization of College Students, 1995-2002,” found that among the nation’s nearly four million female college students, there were six rapes or sexual assaults per thousand per year during the years surveyed. That comes to one victim in 40 students during four years of college—too many, of course, but vastly fewer than Ali’s one in five.

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