General Debate 20 October 2020

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PhilBest

Prof. Michael Levitt’s comments in a panel discussion among Nobel Laureates, two months ago, is one of the best things you can get on Covid-19.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPF700rxs_c
It is incredibly hard to find this video, and it has had hardly any views. Big Tech are obviously suppressing search results, and have probably removed the same video from other accounts on YouTube in the past.
He makes the same point I argued long since: we absolutely need a mechanism, when a crisis arises, where all the decision making authority is not vested into the hands of a small group of official experts, but a panel is convened immediately of the best credentialed people from all institutions, including Universities, research industry, frontline practitioners, etc
Then the evidence must be transparently argued, and it should be determined as rapidly as possible if there is a partisan network in “the establishment” merely “shutting down discussion” when the reality from the evidence shows something other than the official narrative.
As Prof. Levitt says, it is taking months for the large numbers of contrary voices among experts, to organize collective statements and so on, and even then, the media and Big Tech are obviously conspiring to keep them silenced. Some kind of legislated mechanism to break through this obvious public harm in times of crisis, is also needed.
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October 20, 2020 8:00am
- PhilBest
  
  NZ actually did something right in establishing a Committee that received testimony from a wide range of experts, but the valuable contributions from people like Simon Thornley and John Gibson did not receive the media support that was warranted by the facts. It is plausible that David Seymour’s performance as the only Committee member to pursue the obviously right lines of inquiry, led to the relatively few NZ-ers who could be bothered watching, into a new constituency of ACT voters.
  
  National are just pathetic, now they are saying “we just couldn’t stop the tide”. You didn’t even try, back when it mattered, not just for your own jobs, but for the whole country.
  
  Surely garbage computer modelling is a rich target, surely Kiwis would respond well to obvious garbage being taken out in as Trumpian a fashion as possible?
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:08am
  - Albert_Ross
    
    Surely kiwis would respond well to obvious garbage being taken out in as Trumpian a fashion as possible?
    
    Evidence is to the contrary. You said it yourself – your heroes had their opportunity to put their case but did not receive media attention, and a clear majority voted instead either for the Labour approach, or National’s “what Labour did but done competently” approach. Even here, where nobody could have been more indefatigable, you’re not getting much engagement.
    
    You may be right and almost everybody else wrong, but as history has shown us time and time again, that doesn’t ensure ultimate victory or satisfaction. Perhaps it’s time to move on?
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:00am
    - kowtow
      
      You’re assuming Labour’s victory was down to one factor only .
      
      I’d guess that the Covid response got them an awful lot of ticks , but other factors must also be at play.
      
      Tactical voting to keep the Greens out.
      The Nats ominshambles
      Cindy Star power
      
      Feel free to add others.
      
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      October 20, 2020 9:08am
      - The Proper Ghandi
        
        Counterfactuals are always tricky. But, to my mind, if the overblown threat of Covid hadn’t been forced down our throats for the past 8 months or so, literally to a captive audience at some stages, allowing a woeful Executive to dig themselves out of the prospect of being a one term government, Simon Bridges would now be in the process of forming a government.
        
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        October 20, 2020 9:36am
      - Crisplion
        
        Covid is demonstrably the main reason. Before the lockdown the polls showed Ardern and her pack of perfidious puppets to be facing a difficult battle for a second term. That changed radically as soon as the lockdown was imposed.
        
        To be sure the panicked way in which National deposed Bridges and the subsequent Muller catastrophe didn’t help at all. However, had it not been for Covid, Labour’s election campaign would have been a desperate attempt to defend themselves from the entirely accurate charge that everything they set out to ‘fix’ – child poverty, housing, etc. – has stayed the same or got worse on their watch.
        
        They failed in every way imaginable and yet were re-elected in a landslide because Ardern successfully terrified the population and then equally successfully portrayed herself as the saviour of the nation.
        
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        October 20, 2020 10:13am
      - JackRabbit
        
        Add to that media manipulation and suppression.
        This was an election by stealth.
        
        Public posting the truth that does not fit the narrative:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb6j7o1pLBw
        
        Aliens could have landed on the White House lawn, but if it did not suit the narrative it would not appear on Facebook, YouTube, Twitter or mainstream media. Anyone privately posting pictures would be labelled “conspiracy theorists” by the respective Departments of Propaganda and their contract media rottweilers.
        
        Case in point the Kaikoura UFOs in 1979/1980. Despite being tracked on inflight radar, and two NZ ground radars, media rottweilers insisted they were squid boats or Venus. Neither of which could fly at several thousand feet, nor execute 90° turns at sublight speed in a fraction of a second.
        
        The sighting was also disbelieved by a prominent member of US Project Blue Book who visited here. But as it has come to light with official US release of documents, Project Blue Book was not about investigating UFOs, it was about covering up their existence and discrediting members of the public.
        
        WHO have come out and publicly stated that lockdowns are not the answer, and that the IFR is similar to that of the flu, has not been reported in this country. The silence is deafening. Any wonder Cindy wanted people to vote early so that if against all odds she was betrayed by the MSM, it would be too late.
        
        So a repeat reminder:
        https://fee.org/articles/who-reverses-course-now-advises-against-use-of-punishing-lockdowns/
        
        https://www.aier.org/article/the-year-of-disguises/
        
        I would wager that the universal DNA vaccine was the intended outcome of the Covid Ponzi scam all along. The oldest con in the book. Create a problem so that the public willingly embrace your solution.
        
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        October 20, 2020 10:27am
      - Unity
        
        And a media who was totally biased to the left. Always positive reporting on Jacinda and negative on Judith. It was very noticeable. But then $50 million probably helped.
        
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        October 20, 2020 10:43am
      - JackRabbit
        
        The downtick rottweilers are out of bed.
        
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        October 20, 2020 10:51am
      - Critical Thinker
        
        @Unity
        It was actually 125 million tax payer dollars that is being used to ensure that the Fake News media keeps the “correct” narratives that our Nu Tirani regime wants.
        
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        October 20, 2020 11:23am
      - Engelbert Humperdink
        
        Money, fear, confusion, and above all – one-sided propaganda from the Ardern & Bloomfield UnReal Trash Show.
        
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        October 20, 2020 3:41pm
    - theoldbloke
      
      Albert_Ross.
      Just a small factcheck correction.
      Jacinda did not win a clear majority. 47% of the vote is not even a majority!!!
      
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      October 20, 2020 9:20am
      - Brian McDonald
        
        A majority government refers to one or multiple governing parties that hold an absolute majority of seats in legislature. … In contrast, a minority government must constantly bargain for support from other parties in order to pass legislation and avoid being defeated on motions of no confidence.
        
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        October 20, 2020 9:56am
      - Albert_Ross
        
        What I actually said was that a clear majority voted either Labour or National.
        
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        October 20, 2020 9:59am
      - Sacha
        
        If it was a matter of a simple majority in votes wouldn’t we have had a National government in 2017?
        MMP is the system that has been confirmed by voters twice since it’s original inception.
        The result from Saturday should (but probably won’t) alert voters to the fact that the ‘covid’ effect so adroitly manipulated by the PM, was in effect a dog-whistle.
        ‘Good dogs!’.
        
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        October 20, 2020 10:23am
    - fernglas
      
      Albert-Ross, like most Kiwis you seem to think the consequences of this virus are all but over. They’re not, they are only beginning. So we need to keep encouraging people to speak out where charlatanism has trumped logic, where gossip supplants evidence, and where those who have tried to speak out have been shouted down by a frightened populace, insipid media and compliant politicians.
      
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      October 20, 2020 9:36am
      - Albert_Ross
        
        Drs Thornley and Gibson and people like them weren’t “shouted down”. They were allowed to speak to the Parliamentary Committee, and I have no doubt that the Parliamentary Committee listened carefully to what they said, as they would have to everybody that spoke and otherwise submitted evidence.
        
        They didn’t get much traction, but that is not the same as being shouted down.
        
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        October 20, 2020 10:11am
      - freethinker
        
        You may be right Fernglas if NZ follows the Northern Hemisphere countries with second & third waves of the virus come winter. In this event NZ weakened by the first but contained wave may find itself locked down and this time borders actually closed to all with the result of mass unemployment and vast borrowing to ensure its angry citizens are placated, and they may not be. A domino effect is the debt will fall for repayment by the generations who voted this bunch of Marxists into office.
        
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        October 20, 2020 12:48pm
    - PhilBest
      
      Surely kiwis would respond well to obvious garbage being taken out in as Trumpian a fashion as possible?
      
      “Evidence is to the contrary”.
      
      No, it is not. It is not evidence that something wouldn’t have worked, if it wasn’t even tried.
      
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      October 20, 2020 4:30pm
  - tavita
    
    I’m with Phil . See what Matt Ridley says http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/students-who-catch-covid/
    
    Actually David S was also badmouthing Sweden but on balance it looks like they were right.
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:23am
  - Sir Cullen's Sidekick
    
    Nats are still leaking to Tova. Anybody who leaks to Tova will end up in dustbin. I hope the leaker is quickly ousted and National expels him or her.
    
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    October 20, 2020 11:33am
    - The Boss
      
      Yes, and it’s been going on for years, starting with JLR. How come it is so difficult to identify this despicable person/s ?. They have cost us the election, and many good people their jobs.
      
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      October 20, 2020 12:11pm
    - Nickc2
      
      Agree. Time for National to drain their swamp now. Any further disruption and/or covert aspirations of grandeur by others within the party can and will be interpreted by the MSM as further disunity within the National Party. In short, not a good look!
      
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      October 20, 2020 12:48pm
- ronsegal
  
  Unfortunately Prof Levitt’s understandable rant, praises Sweden’s original ‘no-lockdown’ strategy, from which the country is now rapidly back-peddling due to the rocketing number of Corona virus cases.
  
  More generally though, the gist of his complaints about scientists is sound. Effectively they can no long be trusted with the truth, allowing their own vested interests, fears, politics, ideologies and predilections to override and suppress scientific neutrality, in order to present the ‘right answer’. The same applies to climate science, where it is almost impossible to find unbiased data and/or objective interpretations.
  
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  October 20, 2020 11:02am
  - PhilBest
    
    What is your source of information on Sweden? They are no back-pedaling at all, the “pandemic” has been over there for months, and they know it and they are proud of it. Their official epidemiologists are on at least as many T-shirts as Ashley is here.
    
    “Rocketing cases” are based on PCR tests that detect virus RNA, which is now far more likely to be debris from viruses destroyed by the immune system weeks or months ago. These test results are good news, not bad news. If people don’t wake up when deaths don’t track the “explosion in positive tests”, pity help us.
    
    The “experts” know this about the tests, so if they are using them to sow hysteria it is now beyond question that they are committing criminal conspiracy, they are trying to perpetuate the economic damage for as long as possible, even with obvious lies that will come back to bite them.
    
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    October 20, 2020 4:35pm
  - PhilBest
    
    Ronsegal, please scroll down to the graph: Deaths in Thousands (black) Versus Expected (red) For Several European Countries: at the bottom of this paper:
    
    https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/pcr-positives-what-do-they-mean/
    
    The paper itself explains the point I am making about PCR tests. If the positive test results graph curve was also on the graph of deaths, it would show the absurdity of the alarmism over “positive tests”.
    
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    October 20, 2020 4:39pm
Critical Thinker

For those of you here that are finding it difficult to keep up to date on the greatest political scandal in US history. Explaining why the social media giants have gone full Orwellian with their censorship. And why the insanely corrupt Joe Biden is now in hiding:
??
https://youtu.be/5ZVOkgOR-_M
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October 20, 2020 8:00am
- notrotsky
  
  Lol trump junior saying Binden is corrupt … LOL what a shambles and cesspit the USA has become.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:16am
- BeeJay
  
  FFS – Donald Trump Jr? A reliable source for anything? You need to get over it! Unless, of course, you are eligible to vote in the US Election? If you’re not, wtf has any of it got to do with you?!
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:22am
  - Observer of Life
    
    BJ: oh I don’t know. Maybe because if the likes of Twitter and Facebook etc are censoring info in the US, they are doing it here too? Just a thought.
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:00am
  - In Vino Veritas
    
    New York Times. Federalist. US Director of National Intelligence. They all think that the information from the laptop is real. And what has it got to do with CT? or me? Only that America is one of the most powerful nations in the world and the last thing the world needs right now is for it to fall into the cesspit of socialism. And Biden and Harris are happy to see that happen.
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:17am
- JibberJabber
  
  https://kagdailynews.com/congress-just-released-the-hunter-biden-report-it-accuses-the-biden-family-of-trying-to-enrich-themselves/
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:25am
  - BeeJay
    
    OH FFS!!!!! And Trump hasn’t already significantly enriched himself during his Presidency?? How many examples do you want??
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:44am
    - Billy Collins
      
      Please give examples.
      
      As far as we have been told, Trump has lost billions by becoming President.
      
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      October 20, 2020 10:29am
    - lilman
      
      Grow up BJ,all presidents become money rich in the job,to say any family hasnt is childish.
      
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      October 20, 2020 12:49pm
    - Nickc2
      
      FFS BJ, as the saying goes, “there are none so blind as those who will not see”! I’m not sure if you are serious or just extracting the urine?
      
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      October 20, 2020 12:59pm
Sigmund Freud

Imagine if you will, a strange, bizarre world where a virus appears that is so deadly and contagious, you have to be tested to even know you had it, a pandemic is declared while hospitals sit empty, people who are perfectly healthy are considered to be “infected”, everybody wears strange masks and stand 2 metres apart, coughing and sneezing in public are considered a crime and the media thinks that old people dying is somehow unprecedented, it is then you realise you have entered the Covid Zone.
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October 20, 2020 8:00am
- The Proper Ghandi
  
  All of these statements are correct. They describe the situation and are incontrovertible. Yet so many people would read that and just not see the insanity of it all. It shows us the power of advertising and constant messaging though. Provide people with the appropriate stimuli, and they will do and believe almost any impossible notion.
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:45am
JibberJabber

Cactus Kate, on fire as usual,
https://asianinvasion2019.blogspot.com/2020/10/election-night-wrap.html
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October 20, 2020 8:01am
- Chris R
  
  She comes close to hitting her nail on the head but by concentrating on National’s future she omits her own Party ie ACT. I am an ACT supporter too and admire David Seymour with zero reservations. Why hasn’t Kate addressed the future needs of ACT given she admits to being a voter for the Party? Without having done this her rant seems more hysterics than a true assessment.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:28am
  - Brian McDonald
    
    What is ACT going to achieve – they’ll have less push than the Greens? A celebration for not being in Government that takes some doing. Judith understood the numbers so there were no cartwheels from her.
    It was a race between the Greens and Act to finally understand what the election result meant for their parties. Act still hasn’t woken up.
    If National comes back with a roar over the next 3 to 6 years this campaign showed the party knew which side to sharpen its knife on – the one thing JC was very clear about throughout, party vote blue.
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:20am
    - Crisplion
      
      ACT has gone from being a party on life support with 1% of the vote, to having 10 MPs, including the young, smart and socially-liberal Brooke Van Velden as 2IC to the formidable Seymour. In the last term, Seymour was far more effective in opposition than were all of the Greens put together in government. Now, with Van Velden and eight others beside him, ACT will be a force to be reckoned with and a vital component of a future National-led government – vital, at least, for those of us who like political liberty and economic prosperity.
      
      Seymour and his fellow ACT MPs, as well as we ACT voters, have much to celebrate despite the dismal state in which the country will now languish.
      
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      October 20, 2020 11:30am
      - 453mm
        
        I’m curious about what an ACT-led government might look like.
        
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        October 20, 2020 1:07pm
      - crikey
        
        You have nothing to celebrate until ACT becomes part of the Government. Next time there will not be the influence of the End of Life Choice Act which succeeded in significantly raising Seymour’s profile.
        
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        October 20, 2020 1:36pm
    - Sir Cullen's Sidekick
      
      The National clowns who voted for Labour will eventually realise their mistake and come back to National. It is a matter of time and also requires tremendous work from National to gain their confidence back. A simple start will be to stop leaking to Tova and stop talking to press in general except standard press releases.
      
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      October 20, 2020 11:36am
    - freethinker
      
      David was a single MP party yet managed to deal to Charter schools and end of life issues both of which needed exposure, I cannot think of any Govt minister from 2017 onwards who achieved a fraction of these issues but I can think of several whose failures are immense. Labours issue forward is that Jacinda thinks she has a team of real excellence and experience but I fail top see any evidence in recent years to support this notion.
      
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      October 20, 2020 1:25pm
  - Cactus Kate
    
    Act have how many seats? May I suggest they did something very right the last 3 years and don’t need the published column inches.
    
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    October 22, 2020 3:20am
- Ruahine
  
  Kate is great. She writes very insightful Posts.
  She also sometimes writes very inciteful Posts as well.
  She is so right.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:41am
- Gravelroad
  
  Mmmnnn – yeah, right, another one blaming women, farmers and rural electorates for National’s results.
  No political party in recent times has ever supported farmers. All, apart from perhaps ACT, have happily jumped on the anti farming, dirty dairying insulting bandwagon when it has suited.
  So a few this time might have Party voted Labour in a desperate attempt to shade the Greens, boo hoo.
  Farmers are now amongst our most marginalised sectors in NZ – why does it matter to you Cactus Kate if some voted left?
  Yep, let’s demonise rural and farmers for it.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:43am
  - lifesgood
    
    Look the rural community voted Labour, they will deserve all they get. I won’t shed tears for them.
    
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    October 20, 2020 8:52am
    - john1234
      
      According to a Fed Farmers person on the radio this morning, Farmers decided National was toast, and tactically voted Labour to ensure they didn’t need the Greens.
      
      Typical cunning ingenuity from the cockies.
      
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      October 20, 2020 9:16am
      - JackRabbit
        
        “Typical cunning ingenuity from the cockies.”
        
        That is what they say, but I wager it is not what happened. Cockies are not stupid. If it were true that they didn’t want Greens or Labour in, they would have voted National regardless or Act. Any farmer worth his salt would not touch Cindy with a barge pole unless they were infatuated with her.
        
        Either that or they can’t admit to being conned by Jacinda, or the election was rigged. Her face on the Covid sermon pulpit for months on end probably did it, along with the overspend on the media adverts.
        
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        October 20, 2020 10:40am
      - nathie
        
        Yes I guess it was cunning in some respects (although fatal for National).
        
        However whilst it might seemed prudent (to them) to give their Party vote to Labour (to keep the Greens out), it seems totally irresponsible (of them) to give their Electorate vote to Labour – as this has resulted in a number of excellent National candidates and sitting MP’s being replaced by yet more Labour identity politics types, who have more infinity with their urban/liberal colleagues than the conservative rural communities!
        
        However it has happened and they had their reasons – let’s just hope the strategy pays off!
        
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        October 20, 2020 10:42am
      - Paulus
        
        But SHE will get the Greens inside the Tent so stuff you Farmers – they will.
        
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        October 20, 2020 11:06am
    - Sir Cullen's Sidekick
      
      Same here. When Farmers are hit with high costs, I am not going to shed any tears for them. May be I will, when I pay $8 for a cabbage at the super market.
      
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      October 20, 2020 11:37am
      - Gravelroad
        
        No, this is just anti-farmer rhetoric.
        Why do you attribute a few farmers changing their vote to National as an excuse for National losing the election?
        As usual, people working on the land are an easy target.
        See Chukar’s comment below – owner operator farmers make up about 2% of the voting electorate.
        
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        October 20, 2020 1:08pm
    - freethinker
      
      Lifesgood – a rather nasty attitude so when the recession hits and unemployment skyrockets with empty bellies and mortgagee sales you will understand that Farmers will respond how – your way or with help & compassion?
      
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      October 20, 2020 1:30pm
  - chukar
    
    Cactus Kate,
    Farmers are to blame for the election result?
    Absolute bollocks.
    First , < 2% electorate makes a difference?
    Second ,National walked away from farmers years ago .
    ie Many years of total neglect:
    refusal to address the RMA.
    Removing property rights
    Water woes
    Subsidies to everyone else – Yachties, tourists ,bike riders, film makers etc.
    Unleashing a tsunami of Councils led regulation and misery on rural NZ – the list is endless.
    CK should be better informed.
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:18am
    - Sacha
      
      ‘refusal to address the RMA’
      – didn’t National try (Judith Collins) but was unable to get the numbers from the cross benches?
      
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      October 20, 2020 10:36am
      - Sir Cullen's Sidekick
        
        Especially from the socialists (Labour).
        
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        October 20, 2020 11:38am
      - Albert_Ross
        
        In Government they did, repeatedly; and in opposition they offered to work with the Labour government on the issue and were rudely snubbed. Thanks again, Winston
        
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        October 20, 2020 12:12pm
    - Lance
      
      Bollix and drivel
      Try fact checking next time.
      
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      October 20, 2020 12:42pm
  - Cactus Kate
    
    Farmers are not marginalised, most are very wealthy people sitting on considerable capital gains and don’t need people to cry for them. They manage to do enough themselves.
    
    Their “tactical” voting for Labour to keep the Greens out was a disgrace and they get now what they deserve. An angry Green and with it Maori lobby pushing Labour from within into the left.
    
    As were the housewives of Remuera set voting for that lovely Jacinda….meanwhile expecting wealth taxes to not be kicking in anytime soon. Total self interest. I wish Labour well having to deal with these new disloyal voters vs the demands quite rightly of the unions and greenies who have loyally supported them and bankrolled for decades. Swarbrick allegedly has already had a hissy fit in a lift coming out of talks about talks with Labour. She won’t sit there happily for 3 years watching a centrist Labour government.
    
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    October 22, 2020 3:25am
mikenmildagain

Whether you are celebrating World Osteoporosis Day today, or World Statistics Day, have a good one!
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October 20, 2020 8:01am
- Wangas Feral
  
  There is about a 10% chance of me doing that.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:24am
- mark15
  
  My Girlfriends got osteoporosis.
  She’s a cracker.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:46am
  - Paulus Gnome
    
    Don’t forget your coat on the way out . . .
    
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    October 20, 2020 8:59am
  - Sigmund Freud
    
    Not funny. Report time…
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:06am
    - kowtow
      
      You need your head examined.
      
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      October 20, 2020 11:15am
    - Engelbert Humperdink
      
      You can make fun of whites / crackers and sickness / injury here but make fun of gender – whoa Nellie, the DBS-banhammer descends.
      
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      October 20, 2020 11:46am
- Sir Cullen's Sidekick
  
  Milkmaid – where are you getting this “World xxxx day” information from?
  
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  October 20, 2020 11:38am
cmm

Look, the sun still came up.
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October 20, 2020 8:04am
- hmmokrightitis
  
  True, and here I was thinking it shone out of Cindy’s butt!
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:08am
  - kowtow
    
    Or according to today’s ODT editorial ;
    
    ” Meanwhile, Jacinda Ardern shines like a star, seemingly untouchable in these Covid times.”
    
    https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/editorial/national%E2%80%99s-future-not-all-bleak
    
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    October 20, 2020 8:29am
    - sooty
      
      Hay, it’s Dunedin!
      
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      October 20, 2020 9:08am
    - Suze Wainwright
      
      Do they have another three years’ of Cindy-loving editorials, all pre-written?
      
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      October 20, 2020 9:16am
    - krazykiwi
      
      Shines like a star? That is nauseatingly copy, better suited to a Disneyland brochure than an apparently serious news source.
      
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      October 20, 2020 9:16am
      - krazykiwi
        
        *Nauseating* (gonna switch autocorrect off!)
        
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        October 20, 2020 9:33am
    - The Proper Ghandi
      
      Unfortunately, it gets worse from the ODT:
      
      https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/editorial/queen-jacinda’s-road-ahead
      
      This level of adoration is usually not seen outside of one party states or religious contexts. Look at the photo ffs!
      
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      October 20, 2020 10:07am
    - freethinker
      
      I hope Jacinda is a super nova.
      
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      October 20, 2020 1:33pm
  - Fletch
    
    Not the Sun, but it’s enough to read by…. ?
    
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    October 20, 2020 12:26pm
  - crikey
    
    That the sun came up doesn’t make your comment wrong.
    
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    October 20, 2020 1:41pm
- lifesgood
  
  And we live in a beautiful country.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:08am
  - Sigmund Freud
    
    Yeah, full of invasive species including wilding pines.
    
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    October 20, 2020 8:14am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Yes we do. And we have considerable freedoms. And our institutions mostly work.
    
    However Canada, Australia and even Taiwan are beautiful countries with those freedoms. We see every day that New Zealanders aspire to the prosperity of those countries. Not a week passes without someone complaining that the drugs that could prolong their life is not funded in New Zealand.
    
    Contrary to the bitter observations of some here I have never bagged New Zealand. But as a New Zealander of 15 years I can point to the policies that are certain to cause New Zealand to diverge from other developed countries.
    
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    October 20, 2020 8:43am
- PhilBest
  
  I can’t see it
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:09am
- Unity
  
  The sun didn’t come up on Sunday OR Monday. I’m sure the heavens were weeping?! They must have now got over it because it came up today!! We will just have to grit our teeth and carry on.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:18am
- Engelbert Humperdink
  
  Indeed it did for those of us fortunate enough to see it.
  
  And, despite the clusterfark that was the election bought and paid for with fear and taxes, I remain of good cheer.
  
  This was written about the US but I consider it applies to me. Maybe to us all…?
  
  (My mom taught me ‘count to ten’. When I found Jeffers’ admonitory poem (quite a few years back now), I substituted this for the ten-count).
  
  Sometimes I recite it out loud when the cretins congregate around me. The sideways looks alone are worth the price of admission ?
  
  ***
  
  That public men publish falsehoods
  Is nothing new. That America must accept
  Like the historical republics, corruption and empire
  Has been known for years.
  
  Be angry at the sun for setting
  If these things anger you. Watch the wheel slope and turn,
  They are all bound on the wheel, these people, those warriors.
  This republic, Europe, Asia.
  
  Observe them gesticulating,
  Observe them going down. The gang serves lies, the passionate
  Man plays his part; the cold passion for truth
  Hunts in no pack.
  
  You are not Catullus, you know,
  To lampoon these crude sketches of Caesar. You are far
  From Dante’s feet, but even farther from his dirty
  Political hatreds.
  
  Let boys want pleasure, and men
  Struggle for power, and women perhaps for fame,
  And the servile to serve a Leader and the dupes to be duped.
  Yours is not theirs.
  
  – Be Angry At The Sun, Robinson Jeffers
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:33am
- Simon
  
  According to Big Tech the sun didn’t come up.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:36am
Monty

So where to for National now? Deadwood needs to leave
Talent search for new 2023 candidates
Anyone caught negative leaking will pay a price
Promote talent (such as it is)
Keep Judith on
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October 20, 2020 8:05am
- Chris Walden
  
  Hey Nats – for the sake of your supporters & your members who donate their free time to serve you, please stop the infighting, the backstabbing, & the leaking.
  
  That would be a very good start.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:16am
  - kowtow
    
    The very close CCP links don’t help.
    
    “What values, one wonders, do the ordinary members of the National Party share with the CCP? Few, if any, I imagine, but if so what is the party hierarchy doing holding party-to-party exchanges with the CCP. Pretty confident that in days gone by it was only the Socialist Unity Party that had much to do with the USSR Communist Party.”
    
    https://croakingcassandra.com/2020/10/15/the-prc-and-our-politicians/
    
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    October 20, 2020 8:33am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      Totally agree
      
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      October 20, 2020 8:45am
  - peterwn
    
    If Simon or Todd were still leader, they would now be out in short order. Judith was there to do the best she could with the cards handed to her. And she did.
    Hopefully any troublemakers were flushed out on election night and there could well be unpleasant meetings without coffee with Judith for any suspected troublemakers.
    This leaves the matter of those who supported Todd’s successful leadership bid. Should they be penalised for this? In fairness to them and to the rest of caucus, I doubt that Todd or anyone else would have imagined that the stress and burden of leadership would have been overwhelming in the way it was. This is especially as Todd had previously been in high level management positions where one would need a high level of resilience to thrive. If Todd and his supporters were now ‘penalised’ this would sideline a significant portion of caucus talent. The hatchet must be buried on this one.
    
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    October 20, 2020 8:45am
    - Engelbert Humperdink
      
      Bury said hatchet in the leakers’ skulls, only metaphorically of course. And swipe another metaphorical glancing blow across the Mullerian occiput. Heat, kitchen, eminently predictable that combination. You want the job, you man up to do it.
      
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      October 20, 2020 10:12am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Agree. Gerry Brownlee and Nick Smith need to be taken aside. Told that if they stay they will get unwinnable list positions next time. Or you can resign in 6 months and go out with a valedictory speech.
    
    The phone is off the hook to National for 12 months. Use that time wisely. Because in 12 months the economy is likely to be in the shit, the Covid-19 situation will have reached an equilibrium and it will be clear that the government is achieving nothing and indeed making us poorer. At that point National needs an plan.
    
    However since I found out election result on Monday morning I think maybe I am wrong. Perhaps most people are happy with the direction of the country. I guess the next three years will reveal this.
    
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    October 20, 2020 8:54am
    - Stu2
      
      How much economic firepower is there in National?
      
      That aspect of the campaign didn’t fire the imagination, or even contrast notably positively with labour.
      
      Or is there firepower but a lack of salesmanship? I don’t find Goldsmith easy to listen to
      
      And there was a spray of spending promises that would all have been debt funded
      
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      October 20, 2020 9:45am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        There is no firepower. Not since Joyce and English. They really need to spend probably two years developing and integrated economic and fiscal policy. Otherwise the next election will come and it will be a bunch of random promises all over again.
        
        I don’t know whether they can do it. Goldsmith is unconvincing. Brownlee can’t do it. But they are going to need to pick a team and stick with them. I keep hearing good things about Nicola Willis. Maybe Chris Luxon can do it.
        
        They really need to go back to the beginning and set out their vision for a prosperous and fair society. The concepts of prosperity, productivity and wealth generation are totally absent from the lexicon of the current government.
        
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        October 20, 2020 10:30am
      - freethinker
        
        Stu – I agree Goldsmith is a massive disappointment and a poor replacement for Amy Adams who did have the intellectual horsepower and her departure probably reflected her gut feel that National were heading for defeat. I party voted ACT and am unlikely to change but National may lose my Electorate vote if they fail to support with positive promises to their core constituents – I wait in more hope than expectation.
        
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        October 20, 2020 6:09pm
    - MrsAnnie
      
      Simon Watts, Chris Luxon or Simon Bridges should go into Finance. Simon B should also take Gerrys spot asap. Judith did not connect with middle NZ at all. She also needs to go with the next 12 months. Lets hope one of the newbies has promise. Personally I think a top CEO could take on the role within 12 months.
      Willis needs to go also, she has consistently leaked – was known as “the devil wears Prada”
      
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      October 20, 2020 3:29pm
  - Weinerpoop
    
    The Nat’s need to find the fuckwits that were leaking and kick then out of the party.
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:16am
    - hullkiwi
      
      Apparently they are still there and still leaking. My money is the 3 possibilities are all Aucklanders.
      
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      October 20, 2020 9:44am
      - Engelbert Humperdink
        
        “It’s JAFAtown, Jake.”
        
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        October 20, 2020 10:13am
    - jon
      
      And get a new party president..someone of the like of Sir George Chapman!!
      
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      October 20, 2020 10:20am
    - xy
      
      Collins used to leak to Slater and Odgers and had to resign over it, both of them are up and playing their games again.
      
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      October 20, 2020 10:23am
- PhilBest
  
  I said the same about Jenny Shipley. Keeping her on could not possibly have led to a worse result in 2002.
  DON’T try “me-tooing” and “Labour Lite” any more. Don’t offer a platform that might as well be Jacinda’s third term, like John Key gave us Helen’s fourth, fifth and sixth terms. Purge out all the candidates who might as well be in the Labour Party or the Greens. This rot goes way back, Wayne Mapp is this site’s exemplar.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:21am
  - Sigmund Freud
    
    Wayne Mapp. Oh dear.
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:09am
    - PhilBest
      
      Wayne Mapp performs a valuable role on KB. He represents the true believer and partaker in National Vichy-ism, providing us with QED’s again and again.
      
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      October 20, 2020 4:43pm
      - Batman
        
        Wayne comes from the real world, unlike the armchair experts and basement warriors…
        
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        October 20, 2020 4:45pm
  - The Proper Ghandi
    
    As the economy and society crumble further over the next three years, there needs to be a distinct and attractive alternative to what Labour offer, something that goes harder to the right and advocates reaction to the liberal policies that will begin (and already have begun) to bear bad fruit in practice, as opposed to the lovely-sounding rhetoric. It’s no good being an Elvis impersonator going up against Elvis.
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:27am
- Unity
  
  I think it is imperative Judith stays on if only because there are so few women left and we all know what gender counters they all are. At least we can say our Leader is a woman. That aside, Judith is a strong person but she must insist on total unity and get rid of those who can’t measure up.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:21am
  - All_on_Red
    
    I think Judith should stay on because she’s probably the only Nat with the debating skills to hold Ardern accountable
    
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    October 20, 2020 8:53am
    - sooty
      
      Who eles is there, but Judith in that lot?
      
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      October 20, 2020 9:15am
    - Jules99
      
      Plus she won’t feel the need to be ‘gentlemanly’. True equality for women is you treat them as tough as you would a man. The media, of course, will call you a misogynist if you do and you are a man (e.g. Bridges). Can’t say that of Collins as she holds Ardern’s feet to the fire.
      
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      October 20, 2020 9:42am
    - MCos
      
      Judith Collins was terrible during the campaign.
      She harped on at the PM about the Green’s tax policy, hectored her about her cannabis vote after it was obvious her own MPs had been told how to vote, encouraged the media to photograph her praying like a first communicant and then denied it, but the fat shaming episode was just horrendous.
      Friendliness towards the voters doesn’t win elections, but it sure doesn’t lose them.
      She infuriated Denise Lee, as we knew, during the campaign and there were plenty of suspicions about others.
      When it was all over it was all someone else’s fault and she got a ‘hospital pass’. As I recall she put her name forward whenever the position came up.
      
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      October 20, 2020 1:56pm
- Miritu
  
  Too late. National abandoned its founding principles years ago.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:41am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    How many amendments have there been to the US Constitution over the years? Plenty.
    
    What National needs to do is refine its founding principles, and make them relevant to 21st century New Zealand, not New Zealand as she was 90 years ago. Acknowledging that the founding principles were applicable to New Zealand society then is important, but we simply can’t stay rooted there.
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:24am
    - Sideoiler
      
      How many amendments have there been to the US Constitution over the years? Plenty.
      
      Twenty seven in total over two hundred plus years and the last amendment made in 1992.
      Not sure I would describe that as plenty.
      
      “To promote good citizenship and self-reliance; to combat communism and socialism; to maintain freedom of contract; to encourage private enterprise; to safeguard individual rights and the privilege of ownership; to oppose interference by the State in business, and State control of industry”.
      
      What part of the founding principles above need to be changed?
      
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      October 20, 2020 10:06am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        The principles perhaps need no change. The problem for the National Party is that it has never adhered to those principles when in office, but has simply presided over whatever situation has been left by the Labour Party as the status quo.
        
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        October 20, 2020 11:26am
      - MCos
        
        The National Party was founded in 1936. They competed in the 1938 General Election and opposed the Social Security Act that established the welfare state we know today.
        The voters didn’t care much for their attitude & Labour won in a landslide. When National eventually came to power they left welfare well alone.
        
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        October 20, 2020 6:58pm
    - The Proper Ghandi
      
      Principles, being principles, don’t need to and shouldn’t have to change over time. If they do, you win only 26% of the vote in a general election.
      
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      October 20, 2020 10:31am
    - crikey
      
      I think what you’re saying is National is rooted if they stay rooted there. Agree.
      
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      October 20, 2020 1:48pm
- chukar
  
  National needs to go back to its founding principles and stick by them.
  Pragmatism has its own reward as we have seen this election.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:46am
  - The Proper Ghandi
    
    Agreed. Patience is a virtue, and cycles define events in the world. The liberal rot runs very deep, and cannot be removed overnight. It has taken 50+ years to become the “normal” political paradigm. Give it enough time and enough damage being inflicted to the country, and voters will come back to their senses, because they’ll have to if they want to survive. National too much resemble a group of bland liberal corporates who are bereft of any actual principles except collecting their pay while the ship goes down.
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:37am
  - Unity
    
    I would like to see National start coming out and denouncing Anthropogenic Climate Change. Of course the climate changes – always has and always will but it’s not caused by man. It’s been much much colder and much much warmer and all before the industrial revolution. Having said that we must control pollution etc but too much money is being spent where it will make absolutely no iota of difference.
    
    The other thing I would like to see them come out on is against the racist racial separatism that is increasing ad nauseum. We have all lived and cohabited for so long now that we should just be New Zealanders with nothing given out based on race. All mention of race should be deleted from legislation. So instead of following political lines they should start working for the betterment of our country and racial divisions are make it worse not better. Surely it is also very insulting to insinuate that people aren’t succeeding because of a certain ethnicity. There are many decent part Maori people here, as well as other ethnicities, getting by on their own efforts proving it’s nothing to do with race. Pandering to one racial group is very detrimental to everyone including that group. It has become politically fashionable to elevate one race and this must stop. We are all humans with the same needs.
    
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    October 20, 2020 11:04am
    - Albert_Ross
      
      Do you think denouncing anthropogenic climate change is a vote winner? What examples can you point to of politicians gaining votes from such a strategy?
      
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      October 20, 2020 3:40pm
      - freethinker
        
        Albert – Climate is predominately a result of the Suns output which has 22 year cycles and currently we are in a Maunder minimum, humans undoubtedly have influenced climate the argument is how much. The pragmatic approach is to assume the climate will change and adapt to it, especially crops and insect pollinators whilst we figure out how we can mitigate the worst effects of change without tanking the world economy.
        
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        October 20, 2020 6:19pm
- Dave Mann
  
  Here Monty, have these on me. My gift to you. Do with them what you will! ?
  
  . . . .
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:00am
- Charmaine Hawke
  
  Having a look at the younger supporters, many in Pacific Island groups there is much enthusasiasm for a more conservative message of aspiration not dependence.
  Maybe it is time the party listened to their members in the poorer areas for what their aspirations are and started addressing them. People want to start a business not be on welfare so give them the tools to look after themselves and they will be voters for life.
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:15am
- fredonas
  
  “leaking” now appears to be defined as picking up the phone when toxic Tova rings and answering her questions 🙂
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:23am
- surfing
  
  There is your main problem, Judith is never going to be PM.
  
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  October 20, 2020 10:41am
- 453mm
  
  I read that as 2023 new candidates and wondered if national has finally decided to take local body elections seriously.
  
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  October 20, 2020 1:12pm
G152

Just a return to First Past The Post elections.
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October 20, 2020 8:06am
- Sideoiler
  
  Just a return to First Past The Post elections.
  
  No need to, the electorate can install a single party in the parliament if that is what it desires.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:17am
Maggy Wassilieff

The upside of a draughty house/office,
or at least, open the damn windows.

Coronavirus: Germany improves ventilation to chase away Covid

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54599593
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October 20, 2020 8:08am
- PhilBest
  
  https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/07/why-arent-we-talking-more-about-airborne-transmission/614737/
  
  We Need to Talk About Ventilation
  How is it that six months into a respiratory pandemic, we are still doing so little to mitigate airborne transmission?
  
  ZEYNEP TUFEKCI
  Atlantic Magazine
  JULY 30, 2020
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:10am
- PhilBest
  
  That’s all that anyone ever needed to do. It is nonsense that this disease gets transmitted by contact, droplets, etc. Otherwise it would spread everywhere, not at random like it does. The factors that actually determine where it breaks out SEEMINGLY at random, are OBVIOUSLY all about weather, and what goes on indoors, in poorly ventilated conditions, because of the weather. It actually isn’t random at all when you identify the factors.
  
  https://www.maurice.nl/2020/07/19/the-carpenters-of-the-who/
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:15am
  - Flossie
    
    Wonder why, when during L4 and supermarkets were basically the only place you could go and consequently so busy, masses of staff at these places didn’t fall ill? Or at least become infected?
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:49am
    - PhilBest
      
      Yep. There is circumstantial evidence all over the freakin’ place. The articles I linked to, explain everything absolutely coherently.
      
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      October 20, 2020 4:41pm
NewInoffensiveName

Is everyone else enjoying watching the Hunter Biden scandal play out? Joe has gone to ground with his campaign saying he will not emerge from his burrow until the debate on Thursday. There will be a steady flow of developments between now and then that Trump will use to put Biden (if he indeed shows up for. the debate) on the back foot in a way that has never been seen in a Presidential debate before. And all of this will happen BEFORE Rudi Guliani’s promise to publish direct evidence of Joe Biden himself being guilty of pay-to-play corruption ten days out from the election. Still believe the rigged polls in the USA? Still think Biden is ahead? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
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October 20, 2020 8:10am
- Vory v zakone
  
  Yep. A 2017 legal contract found on Hunter Biden’s laptop reveals a former Chinese official agreed to pay Biden a $1 million retainer just to offer advice on retaining other law firms in U.S. The Chinese official was convicted the next year of paying bribes in unrelated deal.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:21am
  - Batman
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    ‘found on Hunter Biden’s laptop’ aka a licence for the Trump campaign to make up any story they want, with a couple of fake emails and a willing Murdoch newspaper.
    
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    October 20, 2020 8:43am
    - All_on_Red
      
      Wrong, and you are now reduced to just continuously telling lies.
      Pretty sad and pathetic really.
      
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      October 20, 2020 8:55am
    - Redapplefalls
      
      It’s literally sooo fake that the Biden campaign is hiding until Thursday.
      
      Maybe they will claim then that it’s not Hunter Biden’s laptop or that the emails are fake… seems like an oversight at the moment. Unless of course the opposite is true?
      
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      October 20, 2020 10:14am
    - RJ
      
      So do link for us Batman where Biden or his son deny these are true, because we do know that hunter’s lawyer tried to get the hard drive returned the other day.
      
      I think greenwald says it best
      
      Can’t quite recall a media propaganda campaign this blatant and shameful as journalists unifying to call a story “Russian disinformation” even though 1) there’s no evidence Russia was involved and, more importantly, 2) nobody – nobody – denies the published emails are authentic.
      
      https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1318253321090641921
      
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      October 20, 2020 10:19am
      - virtualmark
        
        Greenwald is a Russian stooge. Has been for years, since before the Snowden stuff.
        
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        October 20, 2020 11:41am
      - RJ
        
        And yet he is right, no one has denied these emails are authentic, so nice distraction there, but you failed
        
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        October 20, 2020 12:01pm
      - virtualmark
        
        Look, the Trump/Russian playbook is simple:
        
        1. Invent slime on your opponent,
        2. Demand the target treat the slime as authentic by responding,
        3. When they don’t respond say that their lack of response “proves” the slime was real.
        
        It’s basically “have you stopped beating your wife?” but in the original Russian.
        
        If they have real evidence then bring it. But so far all the “evidence” has clearly been totally contaminated by Russian intelligence and its tools (like Giuliani). 3 of the 4 people who were Trump’s links to this deza have already been charged (Parnas, Fruman, Bannon). Giuliani will all but inevitably be charged too.
        
        But hey, you keep believing. Whatever you need to get you through the night right? Better than crying yourself to sleep each night.
        
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        October 20, 2020 2:42pm
      - RJ
        
        So again you try to distract and provide no evidence of joe or hunter denying these are real.
        
        I guess you always had on your report card, must try harder. Do try again and this time stop trying to distract and the bloody request, provide evidence of hunter and or joe denying these are real. You and Batman are as bad as Steph is boy you never provide any evidence when requested just rabbit on and try to get by without providing evidence
        
        So read slowly in case you are too stupid to follow
        
        Provide evidence of hunter and joe denying these are real.
        
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        October 20, 2020 6:12pm
      - virtualmark
        
        I’m not aware of anything from the Biden’s saying these emails are or aren’t authentic.
        
        As I said in my earlier comment … part of the provocation is to try and get the targets (in this case the Bidens) to engage publicly. I suspect the Bidens will set out to ignore this whole shabby escapade.
        
        But if you think this isn’t a Russian interference campaign then you are a tool.
        
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        October 20, 2020 8:41pm
- Gravelroad
  
  I have family members who hate Trump.
  They firmly believe this is all fake news and/or a Russian manufactured conspiracy – end of.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:25am
  - Mike
    
    Your famirly members are right to disbelieve the Russian disinformation.
    Butt Hunter, though…
    
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    October 20, 2020 8:36am
  - Simon
    
    Yep TDS are all in on Russian trutherism. But its the independent voters that will see Biden’s corruption.
    Hence the attempt at censorship.
    
    Post truth politics.
    
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    October 20, 2020 8:39am
    - Batman
      
      It is quite amusing that you believe independent voters will see this apparent corruption.
      
      All they see is Rudi and company flailing and ranting about unhinged stuff, and that’s if it manages to leak out the conservative media bubble, which at this point contains 100% of the Trump base and approximately 0% of anyone who is undecided or independent.
      
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      October 20, 2020 8:47am
      - All_on_Red
        
        How would you know what Indies are thinking?
        You just make shit up
        What a liar.
        
        19 3
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        October 20, 2020 8:57am
      - Simon
        
        “It is quite amusing that you believe independent voters will see this apparent corruption.”
        
        Has Biden said the emails are fake?
        
        Its what the independent voters will see. A simple denial would help. Russian truthers fail to see this.
        
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        October 20, 2020 9:10am
      - mikenmildagain
        
        I’m sure AoR’s usual accusation of “liar, liar” will make you ethink your opinions, Batman.
        LOL
        
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        October 20, 2020 9:11am
  - krazykiwi
    
    Tell them is was reported in the NYT and the last time that paper made remotely disparaging comments about a Democratic nominee horse and cart were the predominant mode of transport.
    
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    October 20, 2020 8:47am
- RJ
  
  Whoops, No Russian involvement, intelligence community is not involved, it is an fbi investigation
  
  https://twitter.com/SteveGuest/status/1318169741131993088
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:34am
  - virtualmark
    
    That would be the John Ratcliffe that’s already released Russian disinformation to help Trump?
    
    Lol.
    
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    October 20, 2020 2:44pm
- FatTony
  
  Good work – keep spreading that Russian disinformation comrades!!
  
  “U.S. intelligence agencies warned the White House last year that President Trump’s personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani was the target of an influence operation by Russian intelligence, according to four former officials familiar with the matter.
  
  The warnings were based on multiple sources, including intercepted communications, that showed Giuliani was interacting with people tied to Russian intelligence during a December 2019 trip to Ukraine, where he was gathering information that he thought would expose corrupt acts by former vice president Joe Biden and his son Hunter.
  
  The intelligence raised concerns that Giuliani was being used to feed Russian misinformation to the president, the former officials said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive information and conversations.”
  
  https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/giuliani-biden-ukraine-russian-disinformation/2020/10/15/43158900-0ef5-11eb-b1e8-16b59b92b36d_story.html
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:41am
- virtualmark
  
  You mean the the story of Hunter dropping off an incriminating laptop in Delaware, while living in Los Angeles, to a Trump-fan shop owner whose security footage was wiped and who definitely saw Hunter but is legally blind, with the story written by Hannity’s producer using info from Giuliani and Russian intelligence?
  
  Have you noticed that not even Fox News will touch that story?
  
  If you run a Geiger counter over that story it’ll go off the scale for Russian plutonium diluted in Novichok.
  
  Laugh! Did we nearly.
  
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  October 20, 2020 11:43am
  - RJ
    
    You mean the hard drive that hunters own lawyer contacted the shop owner about and asked to be returned.
    
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    October 20, 2020 12:02pm
    - virtualmark
      
      So far I’ve only ever heard that claim from right wing nut job media. It sounds like the sort of thing Rudy Giuliani would make up in one of his drunken rants to the media.
      
      But, for what it’s worth, I expect the underlying material in the mystery laptop was from a stolen Time Machine backup of Hunter Biden’s computer. So there will be “genuine” content on there. But it’s been salted with whatever extra content the GRU decided would be helpful to comrade Trump.
      
      Did you ever expect you would be shills for Russian intelligence? Ever fancy yourself as a fellow traveller with the GRU and FSB? Strange friends and allies you choose.
      
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      October 20, 2020 2:48pm
      - RJ
        
        Gee you seem to make a lot up to try and defend someone with child porn on their computer.
        
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        October 20, 2020 6:17pm
      - virtualmark
        
        You need to get your head around what the Police call the evidence chain of custody.
        
        Maybe there is child porn on that computer now – it’s certainly proven Russian modus operandi to salt computers with child porn in order to attack their opponents.
        
        But (a) there is no way to establish that that computer was ever owned by Hunter Biden, (b) God knows how many people have had access to it in the last 18 months, and (c) there is strong evidence that among those people were the Russian intelligence agencies.
        
        But hey, you’re a fever swamper. You’re going to frantically believe what you really really really want to believe, no matter what common sense might say.
        
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        October 20, 2020 8:46pm
hmmokrightitis

Am I the only one who feels truly inspired by the prospect of Kelvin Davis being our Deputy PM?

Wonder if all those people who voted to keep the Greens out of power feel a bit shit this morning. Every morning since?

Ah, we are blessed to have St Cindy of the Pestilence at the helm. Lets Keep Moving!
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October 20, 2020 8:10am
- backster
  
  And we can look forward to the bonus of compulsory unionism and national wage awards, might slow down the moving a bit though.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:41am
- pdm
  
  I heard someone (possibly Maori but I don’t knowfor sure) say yesterday that Davis should be replaced by Nanaia Mahuta.
  
  FFS if Davis is a disaster Mahuta would be an absolute train wreck.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:43am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    I recently found out she has been in parliament for 24 years. Amazing.
    
    It won’t happen because she would need to be acting PM. Imagine if something happened and she needed to zoom call the Japan PM.
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:00am
    - Engelbert Humperdink
      
      “I for one welcome our newly and hugely less competent yet even more racist overlords.”
      
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      October 20, 2020 10:16am
  - KevO'Brien
    
    Nanaia Mahuta has standing in Maori and would know the meaning of power and authority. She could perform a top job.
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:09am
    - pdm
      
      True – first cousin to the Maori King – for what that is worth.
      
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      October 20, 2020 9:29am
      - Swifty
        
        Well, the King of Huntly, to be precise.
        
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        October 20, 2020 10:09am
      - Engelbert Humperdink
        
        Ready access to stapling surgery – providing one’s tracks can be covered better than the last one who had it.
        
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        October 20, 2020 10:17am
      - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
        
        Clear evidence of why inbreeding is a bad idea.
        
        5 0
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        October 20, 2020 10:31am
      - KevO'Brien
        
        I don’t underrate Nanaia Mahuta.
        
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        October 20, 2020 12:35pm
    - hmmokrightitis
      
      And is totally unburdened by anything approaching a hard work ethic, so shes available too!
      
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      October 20, 2020 10:23am
- gorse
  
  I agree with hmmokrightitis. I am aghast at hearing large numbers of Nat people voted Labour to keep the greens out. Possibly won’t, talks are already underway. Labour does need someone to blame for not sticking to their election promises, the Greens will be in for that reason. I am still raw from damage done by people who voted for Winston to “ keep National honest”. Look how that turned out.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:51am
  - hmmokrightitis
    
    Its highly likely that people did. Which to me suggests a couple of things:
    
    1. Low information voters who didn’t realise the importance of their vote, and saw that their tax bill wouldn’t be hurt, or
    
    2. Couldnt hold their collective noses to vote for the current National party, which, frankly I can understand – and given my party vote (and that of The Blond, and my two boys) went to ACT – not Labour
    
    If those people think that Cindy et al wont increase taxes or just make up policy on the hoof, I have an oil and gas industry example I can give you.
    
    I largely cashed up 4 years ago when I suspected Labour might sneak in, given Bill was competent but as dull as dishwater. Thank goodness I did.
    
    The electorate wanted smiley and nice, tilty head, frowny, relatable.
    
    Lets hope they factored in incompetent and unable to deliver meaningful change as well.
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:13am
    - KevO'Brien
      
      Do you think an unseasoned bunch of newby Act MP’s can out perform the Nats? The massive changes will stretch all parties. The list MP’s may as well take to playing whist. The Labour ones may be a little more occupied.
      
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      October 20, 2020 12:22pm
  - hullkiwi
    
    Labour, what promises? What was trucked out as policy/promises/commitments was meaningless nothings or packaged activity that is already happening (like electric buses). Labour was blowing smoke and using mirrors throughout the campaign and nobody cared.
    
    We get the governments we deserve.
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:29am
- PhilBest
  
  “Anyone But Winston”
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:59am
- Catgurl13
  
  k K K Kelvin will be the gift that keeps on giving. He will be pure entertainment value lol. Can’t wait!!
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:09am
  - Dougal10
    
    He is New Zealands joe biden heaven help us if he ever gets near the top job.
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:45am
- amospicton
  
  What might be making this an issue of more gravity is that there must be a possibility that the PM has a second child some time quite soon. That would make the Deputy PM position more important than usual. Not quite as important as the selection of Biden’s running mate but no trivial matter.
  
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  October 20, 2020 10:51am
- Paulus
  
  St Cindy can be our Deputy Prime Minister as well as Prime Minister.
  Remember she is so clever she can do both jobs before any weekend.
  
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  October 20, 2020 1:45pm
lifesgood

I hope National treat Matthew Hooten as a pariah from now on. He has to take a lot of blame for National’s loss, Hooten and the Nat traitors who rolled Bridges.
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October 20, 2020 8:11am
- Mike
  
  A house divided and all that. Hopefully, the National Party can find some unifying principles and try to put up some effective opposition.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:38am
  - Dougal10
    
    Maybe national should be two different parties joined at the hip like the nats and liberals in aussie.
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:47am
- hmmokrightitis
  
  You do get the feeling that Hooten is in it for Hooten.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:40am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    I think the title of a 1970’s Boston song sums that up; More Than a Feeling
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:28am
  - RoboRob
    
    Some years ago I used to enjoy and respect Hootens views. I then discoverred that in his job he is literally paid to promote certain political ideas (I forget what these people are called). So whatever thing Hooton is arguing for or against depends on who is currently paying him.
    
    To have someone like this as an analyist on media shows is just stupid.
    
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    October 20, 2020 11:24am
    - RoboRob
      
      lobbyist is the word I was looking for 🙂
      
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      October 20, 2020 1:33pm
- kowtow
  
  ON the TV3 panel on election night he was repeating that stuff about the Fundy faction , he had referred to them as Taliban in an NZ Herald piece earlier in the week .
  Other panelists nodding heads ,sagely in agreement .
  Charming how these Beltway insiders claim to obliquely refer to Nats’ problems , while the rest of the country , you know , us mere electors , are left out of the loop. If it’s a political issue ,then name names and spell it out.
  
  I don’t care who you think God is or what particular iteration he comes in , if at all . All I want is good small government .
  
  What I do care about is how they all go on about Fundies and JLR when there’s another bigger elephant in the room , or should I say Panda ?
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:42am
- Weinerpoop
  
  Yep Hooten can fuck off
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:18am
  - Engelbert Humperdink
    
    “Nuanced but accurate.” 🙂
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:18am
- Aunty
  
  I believe he should be expelled from the party if he is still a member. And any MP or senior party official who still associates with him should be put on notice, terminate that association with him while you remain in service to the party or go.
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:25am
artemisia

So there has been a landslide, and already commentators are saying that will not translate into transformation. Due to lack of positive policy and some constraining negative policy – no CGT, no wealth tax, no super eligibility change, no scaring the horses especially their newly landed centrist voters.

Thing is it won’t matter as Ms Ardern will continue to present any positives, disposable MPs and Mr Robertson will present carefully scripted negatives, and all will be sweetness and light.

On the surface at least, but those serene swans will be paddling in panic under the surface. It won’t be fun. Because many huge demands and no money.
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October 20, 2020 8:13am
- RRM
  
  I think opinion polls have been the TRUE handbrake on Labour’s ideological excesses, more so than Winston was.
  
  How many core talking points has she back-pedalled on, once it became clear the public wasn’t ecstatic about it?
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:37am
  - theoldbloke
    
    RRM, I whole heartedly agree.
    It is the handbrake on any populist politician.
    Happened to Key.
    Will happen to Jacinda.
    She loves adulation, cant handle strong criticism
    
    Almost like the media(popular opinion) is the opposition.
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:38am
  - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
    
    Good point. The only real opposition is given effect through both parties slavish devotion to popularity.
    
    Probably the best thing that the remaining Nat supporters could do is fund regular polls on important topics, and do it every time on every issue for the next 3 years.
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:51am
  - RoboRob
    
    Agree. Heard Cullen on the radio saying those who think she has a mandate to go all ‘transformational’ are drreaming. She knows a lot of her vote base is now center right, going hard left just means loosing the next election. One of the few times I found myself in agreement with Cullen.
    
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    October 20, 2020 11:28am
    - KevO'Brien
      
      a lot of her vote base is now center right Oh dear, never mind. Ardern got what she wanted but the ability to manage it. Wait to Winston call the election a fraud on NZF and demands…
      
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      October 20, 2020 12:33pm
- Engelbert Humperdink
  
  Yes indeed. Reality is that thing that when we ignore it, won’t go away. Not much we who lost the election have to do but wait, observe, point and laugh. Not productive no, but satisfying. Especially as I personally consider since I’m paying more tax thanks to the extortionists, I might as well get some fun from it.
  
  Also as my PPP (Pet Payback Project) in my spare time, I intend to apply for free entry / reading / participation in all of these sorts:
  
  https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2020/09/bizarre_grants_from_creative_nz.html
  
  I am already writing my dialogue as Yorick’s skull when I burst upon the stage of the Woke Iwi Gay Hamlet – I will get them to go ahead with stage production. Also I will be dancing in the 3 x hour-long live-streamed electronic music performances with live visual animations, from a kitchen in Paekakariki, or I will picket Paekak in a tutu and mankini.
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKcAYMb5uk4
  
  The link is relevant…
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:40am
- Simon
  
  Labour are good for property owners, especially with debt. Falling interest rates and ability to increase rents. All on the back on big capital gains.
  
  Labour hand out crumbs to the working poor, which they are told to be grateful for, and the landlords are milking it.
  
  No wonder Labour got 49%.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:46am
  - artemisia
    
    Somebodies are selling their properties, as witness September actual sales up 37% yoy. Some of those somehodies will be landlords deciding the game is no longer worth the candle, especially those in lower demand or moderate rent locations.
    
    And those sales are post the start of covid and before the election. Though many sellers are savvy enough to catch the direction of the vote and the country.
    
    Take a tax free gain, new kitchen, a few shares in the infrastructure sector, pass the inheritance on now, keep an eye out for the return luxury cruises next year. Lose the compliance costs and tenant hassles.
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:17am
    - Tall Man
      
      And current rents provide well under 4% in most cases so why bother.
      
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      October 20, 2020 9:55am
  - lifesgood
    
    That’s why Bob Jones, as one of Wellington’s biggest property owners, always votes Labour.
    
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    October 20, 2020 2:38pm
  - Inandout
    
    Simon, I was astounded to learn today that in a regional city a brand new 5 bedroom house has been let to a family on benefits. A lovely home that has been well built but two months down the track it has been trashed, an absolute rubbish tip. These tenants will not be moved along because WINZ has guaranteed the rent, but you do have to feel for neighbours.
    
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    October 20, 2020 5:42pm
- rockape
  
  Sadly voters don’t have much influence on the party. Are former National voters really going to join Labour and have some influence in it. Maybe if more National voters were inside the National tent we could have moved the party in the direction we want.
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:06am
Yvette

They have only been back at Parliament one day after their devastating defeat but already National MPs are leaking, telling Newshub they are predicting a coup.

National MPs have told Newshub:
“We’re going into a tough caucus and it will be a very full and frank post-mortem.”
“MPs” – so supposedly at least two said that

Another says it is “highly, highly unlikely she’ll [Judith Collins] lead us into 2023.” [1]
And they say “another”

So three of National’s 35 MPs have already leaked to Newshub – and after watching Tova wipe the floor with Jami-Lee Ross?
But then journalists claiming leaked information, appear to be under no legal obligation to prove in any way that what they report is accurate – but, of course, I stand to be corrected on that.
However, along with supposed leaks, we are expected to believe journalists.
Why?
Do they not lie and attempt social engineering as much as politicians reputedly do?

[1] https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/10/nz-election-2020-national-mps-already-leaking-predicting-leadership-coup-after-devastating-defeat.html
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October 20, 2020 8:14am
- Mike
  
  Why should journalists have to prove anything about their sources? Sounds like an idea to silence unfavourable coverage.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:41am
  - Yvette
    
    That journalists don’t have to prove anything about their sources, is roughly the point I was making – like, there is usually no means to establish that the leaker even exists, difficult as that may be – just the journalist’s word. And that was the other point – why believe a journalist over a politician. Both, these days, appear to think it is their vocation to run your life for you.
    
    Funny too, it seems Newshub (and Three before it) is the greatest recipient of leaked material – from National caucus to Pike River.
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:10am
- KevO'Brien
  
  This is what has been going on throughout the whole electoral season–truth is what the hearer believes and acts on, the facts are incidental to the achievement.
  $50M is lot of reasons not to not promote their benefactor.
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:14am
- Weinerpoop
  
  I don’t care who the leakers turn out to be they are need to be kicked out of the National Party caucus
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:20am
- Tony Stuart
  
  I trust Tova O’Brien about as far as I could throw her, which isn’t far at all!
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:29am
  - Engelbert Humperdink
    
    I know a Scotsman who could clear the boundary with hurling that type of dimensional being.
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:19am
  - Suze Wainwright
    
    Yeah, but she’s proud of her JLR video going viral
    
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    October 20, 2020 5:56pm
- Yabster
  
  Any thoughts that there is no leak- but fabrication?
  
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  October 20, 2020 10:47am
  - Bob
    
    Nearly all the so called leaks about National during the last five years have been media generated fabrications.
    
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    October 20, 2020 12:12pm
hullkiwi

Newshub is reporting that only a mere 36 hours after the National Party’s worst thumping at the polls, there is still at least 1 “brain dead” (my words & opinion) MP still talking leadership coups and rolling Judith. Did this person not get the message on Saturday?

11 months ago, we were in a potential drag race with Labour, Labour were flat footed, failing to deliver, National were going to mop up NZF, Act were at 2%, and nobody had heard of Covid.

Less than a year later, some dumb ass (who should be grateful they still have a job), was probably the source of leaks during the campaign, is still spinning stories to Newshub. Does this person not get it? Did they never play team sport? On Sunday, 14 players played as a team and Clark on the wing had space to look good. Don’t play/work as a team and National will remain a shambles.
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October 20, 2020 8:16am
- the deity formerly known as nigel6888
  
  Hmmm. “honest old Mark Mitchell” huh?
  
  That one and Denise Lee have to go.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:55am
  - nathie
    
    Nope, Mark Mitchell on ZB after the 7am news states he supports Judith Collins to stay on as leader, states yet again that he does not want the leadership and states that he is not the leaker.
    
    So it’s on the record, yet again.
    
    https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-demand/week-on-demand/
    
    Seems over at BFD they are blaming him (all because Slater is having a sook over Mitchell not supporting him during the period JLR (and Slater) fired round after round into Simon Bridges which also fatally crippled National in terms of negative MSM coverage and narrative). We don’t need to copy their bullshit.
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:46am
    - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
      
      Ah, officially denied.
      
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      October 20, 2020 10:32am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Let them prove their allegations on penalty of refunding the $50M bribe.
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:15am
- JackRabbit
  
  “…we were in a potential drag race with Labour…”
  
  ACT and Judith and a few of the National party were in a race to save NZ. It was only Labour and Greens were in a ‘drag’ race.
  
  Those who rolled Simon, and those that would like to roll Judith underestimate what is required to confront politicians that do not fight fairly and who twist at every turn, and who tell you pink is white, and normal is rainbow coloured.
  
  And who tell the world on a public stage things that did not happen, falling GDP growth is rising GDP growth (2018), forward progress on trees that is actually going backwards, less poverty when there is more.
  
  Covid is deadly when its no worse that the flu, and the absolude proof is none of the scaremongers social distance or wear masks. Up is down, left is right.
  
  Under normal circumstances Todd Muller may have been OK, but facing off with the Joker did his head in and had him crying within a few weeks. This current game is not about politics, its a mind game, and Todd was not up to it. Judith is. Anyone who rolls her will be worse off.
  
  To face off, you would have to be like the incorruptible Hwang Shi Mok (Seung-woo Cho), with no emotion or empathy, in Season 1 of the brilliant Korean series “Stranger”/”Forest of Secrets”. Subtitled in Korean, it is still a 10/10 in my rating, and well worth the watch. It sends a powerful message about not being intimidated in dealing with corruption. It gives you a good feeling that for once, rightness triumphs over government corruption. It somewhat mirrors corruption that has rocked Korea in real life.
  
  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6461346/
  
  Under the circumstances, Judith is doing an amazing job, and with help from ACT can mount a powerful and vocal opposition.
  
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  October 20, 2020 12:32pm
Inandout

The religion of whipping:
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-africa-54571814
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October 20, 2020 8:17am
- Engelbert Humperdink
  
  I’m sure St Jacinda will be right onto it and send a tweet out or something.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:42am
surfing

Eric Watson sentenced to 4 months prison. This is gold.

Never would have happened in New Zealand. Respect for the UK courts. Even if he somehow appeals his way out of this.
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October 20, 2020 8:18am
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  Surprised it was only 4 months. That guy is a slimeball from way back.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:56am
  - Tauhei Notts
    
    I have been invited for drinks at 5 p.m. by a bloke who is celebrating the imprisonment. He tells me that after 35 years in business Eric Watson remains the only truly full blown arse hole that he has ever dealt with; particularly how Watson shafted him right up the chutney over a swimming pool deal 30 odd years ago, and then threatened to line my mate’s teeth up in three ranks and march them down his throat. My friend has dealt with some gentlemen whose truth you doubt a bit over the years, but Watson is by a long way the worst.
    Interestingly Watson’s late father; I found to be a fine man.
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:44am
stinkypete

Jacinda is like our neighbour’s Doves
an international symbol of peace that shits all over the stuff i love
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October 20, 2020 8:21am
Vory v zakone

It’s almost like Adam Schiff, the Demtards, the media (and the Kiwiblog TDS numbnuts) are all repeating false propaganda about “Russian disinfo” with ZERO EVIDENCE, to hide Joe Biden’s corruption from the American people.

“Hunter Biden’s laptop is NOT part of some Russian disinformation campaign.”
DNI John Ratcliffe

#thebestisyettocome ?
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October 20, 2020 8:29am
- Batman
  
  Lol, Ratcliffe is not only breaking the law, he’s now an active stooge for a foreign power.
  
  It’ll be all fun and games until they’re looking at charges for sedition.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:41am
  - Engelbert Humperdink
    
    Oh dear. DBS so early in the morning?
    
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    October 20, 2020 8:42am
    - Batman
      
      Don’t worry, I’ve got my popcorn stocks ready to salt with MAGA tears ?
      
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      October 20, 2020 8:44am
      - Engelbert Humperdink
        
        It be curious, D’d Bat, that you think our reaction to disappointment is to cry, I assume that is because you judge others by your own tendencies. There alternatives available to you if you can overcome your tendency to self-indulgent Mullerian excess. Try channeling the Codral ad of yore.
        
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        October 20, 2020 11:53am
  - Vory v zakone
    
    lololol ???
    Breaking the law? Which law would that be? Treason and sedition charges for Schiff and his bum boy Eric Ciaramella, means they will be the ones heading to Gitmo by the end of the year. ?
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:10am
rouppe

[mod: an unwarranted attack on a New Zealander on the basis of religion. Do it again and you’ll face a ban.]
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October 20, 2020 8:32am
- theoldbloke
  
  I didnt think Littles hate speech about religion hadnt become law yet???
  Did I miss something in the NZ Freedom of speech debate?
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:43am
I remember when

Perhaps the Election results prove that National MP’s had good reason to panic.
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October 20, 2020 8:32am
Paulus

Once again we will hear promises like we have heard over the last three years but nothing will happen, again only committees.
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October 20, 2020 8:32am
Ruahine

You do not need enemies when you have ‘friends’ like Mr Hooten.
I can appreciate that he felt a bit miffed when his mate Mr Todd Muller took a dive and then he Mr Hooten became quickly out of a job as Mr Mullers best mate.
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October 20, 2020 8:36am
- pdm
  
  I am beginning tothink that Hooten has a lot in common with Ardern.
  
  Neither like to be seen around bad news.
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:48am
BAM

Someone needs to ask Jacinda Ardern about
The Great Reset and what it means for NZ.

https://www.weforum.org/great-reset/#:~:text=Drawing%20from%20the%20vision%20and,dignity%20of%20every%20human%20being.
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October 20, 2020 8:41am
kwkiwigirl

Saw Seymour talk on yesterday’s am show. (Had it recorded). Very impressed. Crikey Nats need someone like that. I can see Act growing their vote in the next three years with him at the helm.
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October 20, 2020 8:44am
- Flossie
  
  He is quite impressive I’ll grant you. But a bit early to be saying it’s all going to be great. Let’s see how all these new MPs shape up first.
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:28am
  - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
    
    There will be at least one dud Act MP. Lets hope its just stupidity and/or rooting and not corruption.
    
    Tis ever the way with small parties. Not enough to do, lots of spare time and a bit of power and status.
    
    David has a big job ahead. Fortunately most of them seem to be adults with good life experience.
    
    The downside, is that all adults with real lives will have at least one regrettable life incident, a relationship that went bad, a job that went wrong, or a mistake.
    
    The media will try and hit at least one of them with a “sex scandal” before Christmas. Just watch.
    
    Media are vultures and scum. You can take that to the bank.
    
    …And this is why normies steer well clear of Parliament or the media.
    
    The only sleazeballs who can get away with this are in Labour, because the media always cover for their own.
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:05am
    - Libertarians are right
      
      They have already gone after #4 for questioning climate alarmism.
      
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      October 20, 2020 11:48am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    I agree. Having never had to manage a caucus before, Seymour is going to be kept very busy looking after his MP’s, making sure they don’t brain fart out loud, and constantly reminding them that the Press Gallery journos are NOT their friends. He will have his hands full, that’s for sure. He no longer has the luxury of taking his entire caucus with him wherever he goes!
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:58am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Note: Seymour (Say More) is accorded a platform and reported. That was deliberately denied to the Nats. All they got reported was interviews from the keyboard about dissension or deflection. I can well understand Muller discovering the reality of his new leaders role– a position, but doomed to silence, mockery, misstatement, misrepresentation, outright lies and destruction. Standard bully socialist tactics. Simon did well to last as long as he did.
  
  All is not over. We can’t blame the Nats for the successful media coup organised by Labour. However, Labour haven’t yet won the war, they’ve taken over an international battlefront for NZ. The GFC may have a greater impact than we are aware of. This may well demolish the new all singing, all dancing power hungry socialists whose preference for lawn mowing exceeds that of management.
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:34am
I remember when

While it is easy to be critical of National Party actions during the time since lockdown: what were there options.
The polls showed they had reasons to be concerned. They had to suffer weeks of Jacinda monopolising the Tv with the 1pm covid updates.
If they tried to be an opposition by suggesting alternative action the media were likely to rubbish them. No only that but they were unfairly attacking Jacinda – our Saviour!
The impact of the 1pm updates was made greater because lockdown meant there was often no other news.
This made it easy for National to start splintering because different factions wanted to try different policies.
Short timespan – so easy to look like they were in panic.
The COL were handing out the money lolly scramble which increased the magnitude of the problem.
Plus the lockdown made person to person contact less frequent,
making planning more difficult.
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October 20, 2020 8:47am
- Tony Stuart
  
  Dead right IRW – National was pretty much starved of any positive media coverage from late March until now, and was on the receiving end of some pretty inflammatory stuff, from the two TV channels in particular.
  
  Gone are the days when some executive at TV and radio stations were given the job of actually timing the volume of coverage, to ensure that neither of the main parties could excuse their channel or station of giving the other more coverage.
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:32am
  - Bob
    
    $50 million buys a lot of fabricated misinformation.
    
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    October 20, 2020 12:15pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  Call that a fair election?
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:36am
  - Tall Man
    
    Nope but meaghan is singing so we’ll have to bide our time, protect our assets and wait for the glitter to start to fall and trust me, it will fall.
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:50am
    - artemisia
      
      Some of us started to protect our assets in 2017. But judiciously because many markets did very well indeed last 3 years. Time now to watch NZ and overseas markets carefully and quietly take profits.
      
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      October 20, 2020 3:55pm
- Albert_Ross
  
  Yes, some of the reasons why National lost the election weren’t within their control and thus not their fault.
  
  Others of the reasons were within their control, and were their fault. DPF set this out very clearly yesterday.
  
  Which do you think it likely to be more productive to focus on now?
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:38am
- yossarian
  
  Nailed it.
  
  Now realise that Jacinda will reign as long as she wants. The economy could crash into oblivion, unemployment could be 40% and she’d still be voted in… because “Aunty Jacinda saved my granny.” and the media adore her.
  
  She’s untouchable
  
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  October 20, 2020 12:50pm
Swifty

For those who have ever secretly wished to see Douglas Murray aggrieved or ever so slightly put out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3sSnmq9uKU

Delicious.
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October 20, 2020 8:50am
Swifty

Socialist Tells Ben Shapiro: Workers Should Own the Means of Production:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xq-q6a9tCM

An evisceration.
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October 20, 2020 8:58am
- Tall Man
  
  And unfortunately today, many can’t even get the graphite into the wood to actually make the pencil!
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:37am
- mandk
  
  Workers already do own the means of production.
  
  They own their labour and are free to sell it, or not, to employers at whatever price they can get for it.
  
  As for capital, it is also constructed using labour freely sold to employers by the owners, i.e. the workers.
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:54am
thetiedarch

Perhaps its been said already but I place the 2020 election outcome at the feet of those National supporters who voted for NZ First in 2017.

If they hadn’t, I suspect we’d have had Bill English and Jonathan Coleman fronting the Covid response.

And then we’d now probably have a 5th term National government!

Instead we have a Labour government that campaigned with no policies and now has the power and mandate to basically implement whatever they want!
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October 20, 2020 9:00am
- mark15
  
  Can’t change history ttd.
  You can pull all the statues down and burn books though.
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:28am
  - Engelbert Humperdink
    
    Our lot are not the revisionsists of history.
    
    Who cut down the flagpole up north?
    Who beheaded the statue in Wanganui?
    Who cut down the tree on (now) No Tree Hill?
    Who’s culling the national library?
    Who covered up the statue in Marton?
    Who’s smothering the historical achievements of Captain Cook?
    etc.
    
    They’ve got one thing in common. And it ain’t voting National.
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:04am
    - oldfella
      
      And in Hamilton, who had the statue of John Fane Hamilton, after whom the city was named, pulled down?
      Hmmm they probably didn’t vote National, either.
      
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      October 20, 2020 11:19am
      - Engelbert Humperdink
        
        Missed that one, thanks oldfella
        
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        October 20, 2020 11:54am
      - Captain Mainwaring
        
        And, who smashed up the America’s Cup?
        
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        October 20, 2020 3:09pm
- Tony Stuart
  
  Well said. I wonder how many of the National voters who reportedly party voted Labour to keep the Greens out also voted NZF because they believed Winston would “keep National honest”
  
  Than old saying “Fool me once, more fool you; fool me twice, more fool me” has never been more apt.
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:35am
  - Gravelroad
    
    Here’s an idea, Tony Stuart-
    Instead of the National Party’s “go to” response of pointing the finger of blame at those who didn’t vote for them, how about a change of approach?
    Say thanks to those who did vote for them.
    Shift the focus from the internal infighting and ego driven posturing and listen to what people out here are saying.
    Stop blaming people who changed their vote this time for whatever reason.
    I am a farmer and I actually did vote for National on Saturday- though why I did I am beginning to wonder because I am hearing some anti-farmer/rural rhetoric from National sources.
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:26am
    - Tony Stuart
      
      I’m not blaming them GR. One of the privileges of democracy is that we can vote as we wish.
      
      I voted two ticks blue as well, and am gutted at the result. People party voting Labour to keep the Greens out was a factor, but I don’t believe it was the only factor, otherwise how would we explain National losing so many electorates?
      
      I agree that the focus needs to move from internal infighting to caucus unity, but the media is going to keep beating up stories about National’s factions, because it’s like blood in the water, with the sharks circling. Assuming Collins retains the leadership, the most crucial appointments for her to make are the party whips, whose role it is to ensure caucus discipline. Anyone who steps out of line needs to know that there will be consequences.
      
      Connecting with the grass roots is really important, and that has to be a focus for EVERY National MP, from the leader down to the newbies. When Ardern’s stardust ceases to coat everything and the reality of our financial situation kicks in, National has to be ready to swing into action.
      
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      October 20, 2020 11:18am
      - oldfella
        
        TS: just realised that Labour’s big bunch of new MPs could bring with it a downside. A lot of them would have been selected just to make up the numbers in ‘true blue seats’, with no thought to them actually winning. Which means the Labour back bench might now have a bunch of new ‘Kelvins’ who won’t do well under pressure.
        
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        October 20, 2020 11:32am
    - Paulus
      
      But we hear many Farmers – particularly from the South Island voted List to Labour in the belief – false as we will see, to keep the Greens away.
      Sage will still gut the farms.
      
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      October 20, 2020 1:58pm
- hullkiwi
  
  It goes back further than that. It started in 2014, when Key had his third election victory.
  
  During that term, he wasted political capital on the flag referendum and then stood down at the end of 2016. The problem was National although it had a technocrat to be PM, we did not have a leader who could command the polls. Which was ok while Angry Andrew led Labour, but that was not how it turned out. Not only that, despite 9 years in govt, National was also wafer thin with real new talent emerging in cabinet. Just look at how many Key ministers remain, and look at how many ministers English promoted now remain. You can count the numbers on a single hand.
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:39am
  - Albert_Ross
    
    You’re forgetting that Bill English didn’t lose the last election, the result was lawfully but immorally sabotaged by an act of spite from a vindictive, nasty old man. English was quite right not to give Winston what he wanted and it’s not his fault, or Bridges’, that Christchurch and then covid happened, handing political and electoral gold to whoever happened to be in power at the time.
    
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    October 20, 2020 12:21pm
    - hullkiwi
      
      National lost in 2017. National need 47% (which would have meant they needed votes from Labour and NZF) plus Act to have governed. That didnt happen, result National were never going to get govt unless they bought Peters with all the bribes in the world.
      
      National needs to learn to use MMP to its advantage and break MMP in the process.
      
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      October 20, 2020 5:46pm
  - Catgurl13
    
    That flag referendum was the finish of JK. National were really disrespectful of our veterans trying to do this. It was such a stupid idea.
    
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    October 20, 2020 1:03pm
Tall Man

A few years ago I read of a French resistance fighter captured by the Gestapo during WW2. He was so frightened of torture he betrayed his entire network without a finger being laid on him.

When France was liberated he was again captured but this time by the resistance who tortured him to death in retribution and to make him admit his betrayal. He died without revealing his treachery and many believed that they had gotten it wrong until the end of the war provided the evidence that he had been a cowardly traitor.

This led to a tenant of psychology that most people will do extraordinary things to hide their mistakes and foibles.

Should covid be proven in the end to be little more than a panic demic, like many of us already believe, will those who were so strident about it’s dangers, including ardern and many other politicians around the world, have the courage and dignity to own up to getting it so wrong?

Asking for a friend.
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October 20, 2020 9:08am
- fernglas
  
  Covid will never be proven to be an overwrought and unnecessary moral panic, as those who control the narrative have a vested interest in that not happening
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:31am
- rangitoto
  
  “tenet”
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:40am
  - Tall Man
    
    I know, auto correct and slow brain 😉
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:06am
- Engelbert Humperdink
  
  You know the answer TM.
  
  No. Wucking. Fay. will that happen.
  
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  October 20, 2020 10:05am
theoldbloke

Why does everyone say jacinda won in a lanslide.?

She didnt.
More kiwis voted against her than for her 47% is not even a majority.

But like America, its the system!!
So all those that say Trumpet didnt carry the popular vote, then you have to say Jacinda is the same.

47% of the popular vote is NOT a landslide.
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October 20, 2020 9:10am
- SGA
  
  It was a landslide, theoldbloke, like it or not. For one party to get 49% of the popular vote in a proportional representation system, nearly as much as all the other parties (left, right and boutique) combined, is exceptional (especially since it wasn’t at the expense of the Greens).
  
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  October 20, 2020 10:41am
  - Engelbert Humperdink
    
    Fear and money are even better motivators than sex and money.
    
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    October 20, 2020 11:55am
plc

Bishop and Willis are as ruthless as shithouse rats….heavily involved in rolling Bridges for muller and when that blows up making sure they retain their higher list positions under Collins.

Such self-interest. I like the cut of their jib.

Make Bishop Finance spokesperson and Willis Education spokesperson.

Watch the leaks dry up then.
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October 20, 2020 9:15am
- Tony Stuart
  
  Nicola Willis was already National’s Education spokeswoman under Judith Collins.
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:39am
  - plc
    
    Obviously focusing on list position rather than making any impression
    
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    October 20, 2020 10:04am
- Daphne Whitethigh
  
  An insult to both rodents and water closets.
  
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  October 20, 2020 10:30am
- Bobba Fret
  
  Yes I reckon Bishop and Willis have a lot to answer for and if I was Judith I would not trust them. The National rot started with the rolling of Simon Bridges, then its all been down hill from there. They are lucky to still have jobs in National, (only due to their high list places). Todd and Nicki should take a lot of blame too…..Todd you are lucky to still be there. Is it deserved? You and Nicki have cost a lot of National people their jobs.
  
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  October 20, 2020 10:38am
  - Tall Man
    
    Started with jlr this time.
    
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    October 20, 2020 12:02pm
    - hullkiwi
      
      TM, JLR is, but one person who helped make the outcome on Saturday worse than it needed to be, but he is not the only person responsible.
      
      The issues National must confront, as a whole are significant, and it is not appropriate to air everything that needs to be addressed on a public blog such as this. Sorry DPF.
      
      But something for some of you to think about, National no longer has an electorate MP on the East Coast of the North Island, or in the lower Noth Island, i.e. south of Taupo and King Country-Taranaki. For those of you, who have never not had a National MP, just think about the added work load that the remaining MPs will now have to shoulder in order to connect with National supporters? Because of the reduced number of MPs just think about how many National party constituency offices will disappear because parliamentary funding is gone etc. Saturday brought changes that National has not had to face since 2002.
      
      So, honest appraisal of all the issues is required. It must not be just finger pointing or a case of dealing with leaks from aggrieved MPs associated with different personality factions in the party is what is now required. In fact the factions associated with the different Past Presidents (there at least 3 I know of) have to work out whether they belong in National Party or not, or whether it is better for them to take their egos elsewhere.
      
      Finally, many are going to have to ask themselves whether they are going to be part of rebuilding the National Party for 2023 and beyond. If, they cannot see themselves being part of a party rebuild, they must look at options for stepping back gracefully and getting out of the way of those who have much work to do. The work to be undertaken is comparable to what was required in 1984 -90.
      
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      October 20, 2020 1:50pm
      - nathie
        
        Post of the day, well said!
        
        Sounds like the (National) Party needs to keep offices open (and staffed) in those regions that were lost?
        
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        October 20, 2020 4:05pm
      - Engelbert Humperdink
        
        I’ll be expecting my new – unwanted – Labour MP to look after me as a constituent. My taxes and yours pay for the incumbent ignoramus, regardless of my vote.
        
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        October 20, 2020 8:57pm
  - crikey
    
    Disagree. The rot started with JLR’s machinations against Simon Bridges. The POS got all he deserved from that other POS Tova O’Brien.
    
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    October 20, 2020 2:19pm
lastmanstanding

I suspect now Labour has an outright majority Andrew Little will ramp up his so called hate speech laws.
These will take the form of outlawing any criticism of Islam including terrorism. It will also outlaw any criticism of Muslim mens treatment of women, little boys, little girls and homosexuals.
Of course the latter is ironic given the gender fluidity of the Labour caucus.
It will of course allow criticism of Jews and Christians.
This is all part of international Lefts Woke agenda. Islam good Jews and Christians bad.
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October 20, 2020 9:24am
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  And criticism of the Labour Government will result in jail time.
  
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  October 20, 2020 10:31am
  - hullkiwi
    
    Don’t worry Angry has promised to get rid of 3 strikes, and they still want to hug criminals. You work out the double standards.
    
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    October 20, 2020 1:52pm
- Critical Thinker
  
  No need to suspect at all.
  
  Ardern was very upfront with the media just a few days before the election, that a top priority of hers was to remove freedom of speech from the citizens of Nu Tirani.
  
  Unfortunately it seems that the majority of the nation must have agreed with her, in voting their freedom of speech and thought away ?
  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2020-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-wants-stronger-hate-speech-protections/4OD44H6UZNJ6PI5NVEQVOG7JAI/
  
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  October 20, 2020 11:01am
Tall Man

This article, posted by Sir Bob Jones last week, is worth a read.

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/philosophy/lord-jonathan-sumption-coronavirus-covid-19-lockdown-liberty-freedom-response-thomas-poole
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October 20, 2020 9:25am
All_on_Red

PA swinging towards Trump.
However this is the State where mail in ballots might be ‘ahem’ problematic.
Democrat presidential candidate Joe Biden and President Donald Trump are statistically tied in Pennsylvania, a Trafalgar Group survey released Monday.
The survey, taken October 13-15 among 1,041 likely voters, showed Trump narrowing the gap in Pennsylvania, with Biden leading by just 1.1 percent — 47.5 percent to the president’s 46.4 percent. As has been the emerging theme in several recent surveys in key Rust Belt states, Biden’s lead is within the margin of error, which is +/- 2.96 percent.

Btw RealClearPolitics co-founder and President Tom Bevan has referred to Trafalgar Group as “one of the most accurate polling operations in America” following its successful predictions in both the 2016 and 2018 elections.
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/06/22/pollster_who_got_it_right_in_2016_michigan_a_dead_heat__143512.html
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October 20, 2020 9:27am
Benedict Yu

I got speeding ticket yesterday. No excuses. But it did leave me wondering about how police prioritise road safety policing.

I was on one of those long straight Canterbury secondary roads:https://tinyurl.com/y4a5a7qa

It was fine weather. The road was deserted. I could see all the way to the horizon in a straight line.

Now I can only assume that the patrol car was there because it is exactly the kind of road where your speed can go up, so there is a high chance that if a vehicle does come along it will be breaking the speed limit.

But if you think about risk. There really was no risk. I was slowing at any cross roads and being vigilant. Yet the resources of a police patrol were dispatched to this long, safe, quiet, road in an effort to “catch” someone. Yet in urban Christchurch, I see the most appalling risky driving every day. Strange priorities all I am saying.
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October 20, 2020 9:35am
- Tall Man
  
  Strange priorities but easy money 🙂
  
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  October 20, 2020 10:01am
- Engelbert Humperdink
  
  They gotta make their quota. And ticketing people like you is a shedload safer for their delicate integuments than raiding neighborhood meth houses.
  
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  October 20, 2020 10:07am
- SGA
  
  But if you think about risk. There really was no risk. I was slowing at any cross roads and being vigilant.
  
  And perhaps you were. But how do the cops know that? Should they assume that everyone going at the speeds you drive are equally vigilant?
  
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  October 20, 2020 10:49am
Suze Wainwright

Does Ricardo Menendez March know how to crack a smile…?
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October 20, 2020 9:39am
- Tony Stuart
  
  Possibly not, but he knows a bottomless trough when he sees one…
  
  30 1
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  October 20, 2020 9:46am
  - Suze Wainwright
    
    Um, I’m not sure he’d appreciate a bottomless trough, Tony…
    
    7 1
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    October 20, 2020 10:16am
    - Engelbert Humperdink
      
      ISWYDT…
      
      1 2
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      October 20, 2020 10:35am
  - hullkiwi
    
    It’ll be good listen to him tell us about Auckland Poverdeee, knowing he is getting $200k pa plus in salary, perks and allowances from the taxpayer.
    
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    October 20, 2020 1:56pm
- nathie
  
  Was that him whinging on the news last night that Parliament’s walls are covered with pictures of “too many white” men for his liking? (I guess he’s referring to pictures of former MP’s from the 1800’s onwards)?
  
  Flippant “former foreigner”, dissing the nation that has given him residency!
  
  Looks like Shaw and Swarbrick will be busy trying to hold onto voter support as the large hard-left activist faction of the Greens undoes their hard work trying to make the Greens “acceptable” to middle NZ (and the majority of their own voters that put them all into power)!
  
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  October 20, 2020 10:00am
  - Swifty
    
    Just imagine, as a European New Zealander, walking into the Mexican houses of parliament and so casually dismissing all those who have gone before you as ‘too Mexican’.
    
    What appalling manners that would be – and to be so ignorant of Mexican history.
    
    I find this somewhat interesting too: “He moved to New Zealand to study but found tuition fees too expensive and dropped out, working in the hospitality sector before becoming involved in political work..”
    
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/428749/fighting-every-step-of-the-way-new-green-mp
    
    So, what, he didn’t investigate our study fees before coming here? And, if he found his planned study so unaffordable, why wasn’t he required to leave? I didn’t realise it was so easy for someone so young and unskilled to convert a study visa to a working visa – or am I missing something here?
    
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    October 20, 2020 11:15am
    - kowtow
      
      That story leaves more questions than answers ,from RNZ very poor.
      
      I’m guessing MM must have married a NZer in order to get residency and took his spouses’ name to double barrel.
      
      Another point from the article ;
      
      ‘Meanwhile, the Beehive will welcome its first African and Sri Lankan MPs.’
      
      I didn’t know our MPs could campaign in other countries and what electorate in Africa ( a whole continent ) or Sri Lanka they ‘re representing ……..surely it should have said ‘first MPs of African and SL heritage’ .
      
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      October 20, 2020 11:54am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      It would have been easy. New Zealand offers young people from Mexico working holiday visas:
      
      https://www.immigration.govt.nz/new-zealand-visas/apply-for-a-visa/about-visa/mexico-working-holiday-visa
      
      And somehow he has managed to become a citizen.
      
      Unfortunately he is an example of the downside of MMP. Folk like him would have zero chance of winning an electorate seat.
      
      I would really like to see some mechanism that allows voters to have a say on the composition of Party Lists. Nobody would have heard of this guy last week. Now he is an MP.
      
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      October 20, 2020 11:59am
      - KevO'Brien
        
        List MP’s should be banned from Cabinet and being Committee members.
        
        10 3
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        October 20, 2020 12:48pm
      - hullkiwi
        
        Sadly, in Auckland he is known of.
        
        3 1
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        October 20, 2020 1:59pm
      - Tall Man
        
        And Mexico with zero white men in charge is a shining example of democracy and safety for it’s citizens.
        
        The man is too fucking dumb to realise that he is the equivalent of a white man in his own country being a member of the ruling class.
        
        7 2
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        October 20, 2020 2:00pm
    - KevO'Brien
      
      What use are any Grrrn MP’s?
      We need a Magenta Party, now.
      
      8 3
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      October 20, 2020 12:50pm
      - Engelbert Humperdink
        
        No, turquoise! how dare you assume pigment /sarc.
        
        2 0
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        October 20, 2020 8:59pm
  - Tony Stuart
    
    Not just residency nathie. In order to become an MP, RM-M must be a New Zealand citizen.
    
    12 1
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    October 20, 2020 11:20am
    - plc
      
      What is it with the Greens…..Golly, Genter, RM-M …..all come to NZ and then point out how we are failing
      
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      October 20, 2020 12:22pm
- Engelbert Humperdink
  
  Shakespeare was right: “Beware the Ideas of March.”
  
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  October 20, 2020 10:08am
- plc
  
  Must be hard going through life so miserable.
  
  I always mix him up with Corey Gonzales-Macuer. Neither are funny.
  
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  October 20, 2020 10:09am
- kowtow
  
  Ricardo Menendez Long March through the institutions.
  
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  October 20, 2020 10:25am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    Long march to the pay window, more likely. He’ll be earning far more as an MP as he ever did as an activist for Auckland Action Against Poverty.
    
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    October 20, 2020 11:21am
    - Bob
      
      he will certainly be paid a lot more, doubtful that he will earn it; much like his colleagues in Labour, earning is not on their vocabulary
      
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      October 20, 2020 4:53pm
nathie

Hopefully the National Party hierarchy will recall Steven Joyce to examine what went wrong for National and how to fix it (as they did in 2002).

Lots of sage advice here from Sir JK’s “Fix-it guy”, well worth a listen.

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/steven-joyce-explains-what-went-wrong-for-national/
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October 20, 2020 10:09am
- Tony Stuart
  
  Getting Joyce and Sir Bill English in would be a great idea.
  
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  October 20, 2020 11:22am
  - Gravelroad
    
    All due respects to yourself and the two gents you mention, but why would you want to bring back yesterday’s men to solve today’s problems?
    That’s part of the National Party’s current situation – just not moving with the times and an inability to read the mood, work the celebrity ticket and so on.
    I thought Ms Collins did ok under the circumstances but I bet some smart Alec with a big ego will set out to get rid of her now thus giving the electorate and the media more huge opportunity to shred the party’s credibility.
    Maybe the party should set up a few “working groups” to quietly go about a re-branding exercise.
    First on the list of considerations:
    Purpose
    Vision
    Who supports us and why
    Can we listen as well as talk.
    
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    October 20, 2020 12:52pm
    - Isobar
      
      Exactly – it could be fairly argued that under Key, English and Joyce they actually failed to bring in enough fresh talent – especially of the ‘Future PM’ variety.
      
      Why you’d want them back is beyond me.
      
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      October 20, 2020 4:55pm
      - hullkiwi
        
        Isobar,you are correct. For example, as I’ve written elsewhere, the National talent pool is equally as shallow as Labour’s is, of the 35 MPs, there are only 7 who have cabinet experience. Where is the talent there?
        
        Excluding Collins, out of the 29 returning MPs (excluding Collins), who has the talent and persona with the public to lead the National Caucus? I don’t see any obvious choices.
        
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        October 20, 2020 5:57pm
- RJ
  
  What didn’t go wrong, constant leaks, in fighting, their pollster releasing a joke that the media and public took to mean he had called the race for labour, arrogance in some candidates in their lack of campaigning, thinking they had a safe blue seat. Seems very little went right and everything went wrong.
  
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  October 20, 2020 11:27am
Swifty

A brief look at the genius of Buster Keaton:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbcY9Rq8tFk
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October 20, 2020 10:14am
Engelbert Humperdink

What could possibly go wrong – innovation from both Labour’s and National’s BFFs:

“A Chinese defence contractor recently test-launched a swarm of loitering munitions from a light tactical vehicle. Loitering munitions, more commonly known as suicide drones, fill a capability gap between cruise missiles and traditional fixed-wing combat drones by lingering over the field.”

Excellent also for keeping pesky Uighurs and other nonCommie ingrates from assembling.
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October 20, 2020 10:29am
burt

Looks like the Labour Party will get a few new members today as these people rush to get all charges convicted and discharged and of course permanent name suppression.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/123143400/public-urged-to-contact-police-after-allegations-of-rape-posted-on-social-media-against-wellington-musicians
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October 20, 2020 10:36am
Benedict Yu

This is nuts.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-coronavirus-victorian-premier-slams-transtasman-travel-bubble-disaster/KXRIGUCGMEBJP4EKJEIR2JJNSA/

Why is the Victorian Premier shocked that after arriving in Sydney, some New Zealanders travelled to Melbourne? Once you are lawfully admitted to Australia at Sydney airport, you are currently free to travel onwards to any other destination, apart from Tasmania, which is still closed to the rest of Australia, apart from returning Tasmanian residents.
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October 20, 2020 10:39am
- Engelbert Humperdink
  
  Be fair, Benedict. He’s not the brightest bulb in the chandelier and the sequence of actions and consequences is beyond his mentation.
  
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  October 20, 2020 3:38pm
Tauhei Notts

I think there has more mention of Ihumatao in the Herald in the past two days than there has been in the past four weeks.
There is an unpleasant odour to all this.
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October 20, 2020 10:54am
- KevO'Brien
  
  We need a strong constitutional lawyer to issue the appropriate proceedings against the Police and other parties for the conversion of Fletcher’s rights to its property.
  Without the respect for law there can be no Government. That renders the election a charade.
  
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  October 20, 2020 12:45pm
  - Engelbert Humperdink
    
    The I Want It tribe will be bought off with us net-taxpayers’ money. Sure as sheeit flows downhill.
    
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    October 20, 2020 3:37pm
- hullkiwi
  
  TN, a safe bet. The problem will be solved the day after the new government is sworn in. Then attention will turn to a parcel of land, followed by other Treaty settlements then being reopened for new claims. The gravey (or grave yard, your choice) train will just keep on, rolling on.
  
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  October 20, 2020 3:09pm
  - info@cruzpro.com
    
    It’s already happening in Northland now. Another private property developer wanting to build 17 homes on private property purchased from a Northland council is being challenged.
    
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    October 20, 2020 7:34pm
Paulus

Andrew Little has been heard to say that they can do whatever they want now as they have the Parliament.
Frightening now weak bearded little man ?
Also it is said that the Cannabis Law will be enacted irrespective of the result, which may well be negative, and that a new Law has been drafted saying the same thing in a roundabout way.
It will g0 ahead irrespective.
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October 20, 2020 11:18am
- KevO'Brien
  
  Is Andrew going to restore Pike River?
  
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  October 20, 2020 12:42pm
  - Engelbert Humperdink
    
    Could he just please lock himself in there? asking for a friend.
    
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    October 20, 2020 3:36pm
jon

And get a new party president..someone of the like of Sir George Chapman!!
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October 20, 2020 11:29am
jon

The new Labour MP S gathered on Parliament steps surely represent diversity BUT one would hope they are also there on MERIT.
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October 20, 2020 11:38am
- Engelbert Humperdink
  
  Oh jon, you joker 🙂
  
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  October 20, 2020 11:57am
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  I can assure you that they are not.
  
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  October 20, 2020 12:02pm
- Fletch
  
  Apparently, our country has the “queerest Parliament in the world” according to Newshub.
  
  In the UK there are currently 45 openly gay members in the 650-member House of Commons, or 7 percent. New Zealand is now at 9.16 percent.
  
  Labour now has seven LGBTQ representatives and the Greens have four – both parties increasing by two since the last election. National now has 35 members in Parliament, none of which are openly gay
  
  https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/10/new-zealand-now-has-the-gayest-parliament-in-the-world.html
  
  I have to ask, how is that representative of the country when the percentage of the population who are gay is most likely hovering around 1% ?
  
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  October 20, 2020 12:37pm
  - mandk
    
    I don’t think it is right to use the word ‘gay’, when referring to homosexuals.
    
    Homosexuals appropriated the word gay, and they get nasty when others want to use the word to describe something that is lame, feeble or unimpressive.
    
    They don’t own the word, and their attitude is extremely gay, as far as I am concerned.
    
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    October 20, 2020 1:39pm
    - Tall Man
      
      Good As You.
      
      4 0
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      October 20, 2020 1:54pm
- KevO'Brien
  
  I don’t like diversity its a close cousin to anarchy. Is there an international union of them or something? The one I have to particularly deal with, you would think had had USA training.
  
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  October 20, 2020 12:41pm
- Albert_Ross
  
  I do not think we should assume that they are not there on merit until their merit, or lack of it, is tested. The fair-minded thing to do would be to give them a chance to prove themselves, and we here purport to pride ourselves on being fair and open minded unlike those terrible old lefties.
  
  If they turn out to be meritless, we can then point ou that they are meritless with good reason.
  
  If they turn out to be meritful then we shan’t have made ourselves look bigoted and prejudgemental by assuming otherwise based on nothing but their being different.
  
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  October 20, 2020 1:31pm
  - Tall Man
    
    ass/u/me.
    
    Nuff said 😉
    
    2 1
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    October 20, 2020 2:37pm
  - Engelbert Humperdink
    
    Lo! The Virtue Signal is shining over KB-tham!
    
    4 1
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    October 20, 2020 3:35pm
Fletch

This is what happens when someone who doesn’t have a clue about what’s going on over here writes a political story…

Tova exposes the “Trump-y” Jamie Lee Ross…

https://mashable.com/article/new-zealand-tv-interview-tova-o-brien-jami-lee-ross/
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October 20, 2020 12:32pm
- Paulus
  
  I am surprised that JLR has not exposed Tova – yet !
  
  6 1
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  October 20, 2020 2:06pm
  - Nickc2
    
    Perhaps he has and it wasn’t a pretty sight?
    
    4 0
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    October 20, 2020 2:23pm
oldfella

Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman’s hand!
The 40-year-old Lebanese doctor, who came to Germany in 2002, said he refuses to shake women’s hands for religious reasons.
The Administrative Court of Baden-Württemberg (VGH) ruled that someone who rejects a handshake due to a “fundamentalist conception of culture and values” because they see women as “a danger of sexual temptation” was thereby rejecting “integration into German living… conditions.”
https://www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947
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October 20, 2020 12:42pm
bennerg

The Herald reports today of two men who performed the most horrific torture on another person, including shooting, burning with a blowtorch, and cutting off a finger. The fleeing police – driving at speeds of more than 200km/h with a loaded firearm and a machete in his car.

The sentence was 12 years, so they will be out in 6 years.

Can we afford to have these type of people out in society?

I think it is time that the criminal justice system is set up, so that for certain crimes, you stay put away until there is absolute certainty they are not a danger to the public. I somehow doubt that 6 years at Club Pare is going to change these people.

No doubt inspired by Pulp Fiction, it is time that society says, nay yells and emphatic no to such behaviour.
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October 20, 2020 12:54pm
- fernglas
  
  We have preventive detention for precisely that purpose, as well as life imprisonment.
  
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  October 20, 2020 2:08pm
- Engelbert Humperdink
  
  I do not like to wish ill on others, but… and yes there is a but coming… would the effwit judge be so lenient if it was their kid or family? Perhaps we need the Evil Ones to target judges before we get justice.
  
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  October 20, 2020 3:34pm
curry4me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcEj51zIGWs

Biden Bombshells Incoming.

Another instalment of the Beiing/Ukraine Biden saga is
coming. The NY Post broke the story last week. Hunter
introduced dad to Burisma. Later, dad made the special
prosecutor disappear. Burisma was the tip of the iceberg.
Joe might have got Chinese kick-backs through a
Chinese energy firm. The Dems, and MSM are running
24/7 damage limitation. It’s the Russians wot done it!
The DNI Declared the laptop is not part of a Russian
disinformation campaign. Biden is hidin. The UK
press reports that the laptop info is authentic, and
that ‘the big guy’ [aka dad] got 10% of Hunters income.
Images, e.mail chains, etc will be forthcoming. Sounds
Like it’ll be an interesting ride.
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October 20, 2020 1:08pm
- Inandout
  
  Nah, Plunkett hasn’t accepted the emails or videos.
  
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  October 20, 2020 2:29pm
- lifesgood
  
  Batman will be along shortly to deny all this is true.
  
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  October 20, 2020 2:56pm
curry4me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMmFbuhqVWE

The presitators Taiwan Plans.

The presitator thinks he can save face by bullying Taiwan.
The PLA is increasing its deployment along the coast,
facing Taiwan. They don’t want war. They are trying to scare
Taiwan. Bullying India didn’t work. Trying to bully Taiwan won’t
either.
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October 20, 2020 1:08pm
I remember when

So Jacinda thinks that Deputy Party Leader and Deputy Prime Minister are very different jobs.
Perhaps she will explain in depth why Kelvin is ideally suited to one (second term) and not the other.
Is it a form of racism?
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October 20, 2020 1:17pm
- RJ
  
  They are and John Key often pushed this that he wears many hats and isn’t always speaking as prime minister.
  
  And what Jacindy has said is that who ever is party deputy will be deputy prime minister and who that will be is up to the caucus.
  
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  October 20, 2020 2:36pm
Steve Todd

It is interesting to see the differences in turnout between those who cast an ordinary Advance Vote and those who cast ordinary votes ‘On the Day’ (Saturday 17).

The turnout percentages for the top eight parties are—

Labour………………51.09 (Adv); 44.50 (OtD); 49.15 (Preliminary Count*)
National…………….25.51 (Adv); 29.85 (OtD); 26.79 (PC)
Greens…….…….…….8.10 (Adv); 6.29 (OtD); 7.57 (PC)
ACT NZ………………..7.47 (Adv); 9.18 (OtD); 7.98 (PC)
NZ First………………..2.35 (Adv); 3.42 (OtD); 2.67 (PC)
New Conservative….1.40 (Adv); 1.77 (OtD); 1.51 (PC)
TOP……………………..1.35 (Adv); 1.57 (OtD); 1.41 (PC)
Māori Party……….….0.94 (Adv) ; 1.15 (OtD); 1.00 (PC)

* 100%; 18 October)

A total of 1,679,966 Advance Votes were cast, and 703,830 On-the-Day votes, for a total of 2,383,796 ordinary votes cast.

From these figures, it is clear, as many Kiwibloggers suspected, that the Advance Votes favoured Labour. Indeed, twice as many people early-voted for Labour (858,345) as voted for National (428,489), whereas only one-third as many people voted for Labour ‘on the day’ (313,199) as voted for National (210,117).

136,072 people early-voted for the Greens, and 125,530 early-voted for ACT. But, on polling day, only 44,275 people voted for the Greens, whereas 64,609 people voted for ACT.

Astonishingly, Labour ‘won’ 54 electorate seats, based on the count of Advance Votes, and National only 16. At the completion of the preliminary count, that had been pulled back to 43-26.

Finally, as a matter of interest, if the official result of the election were to be decided solely by those who cast an ordinary vote ‘on the day’, the allocation of seats would be Labour 59, National 39, ACT 12, Greens 8, and the Māori Party 2, a margin of 69 to 51 rather than the current 75-45.
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October 20, 2020 2:25pm
- Tall Man
  
  Sooooo, by 21 November who knows what may have transpired.
  
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  October 20, 2020 2:34pm
  - Steve Todd
    
    Agreed, Tall Man. The percentages will be different, but the final seat numbers won’t differ much.
    
    Graeme Edgeler has had a go at working out what the final result might look like, here: https://publicaddress.net/legalbeagle/election-20-the-special-votes/.
    
    He says Labour up one, National down one, but I think the Greens will probably pick up an additional seat, too.
    
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    October 20, 2020 4:10pm
  - Isobar
    
    I dont think you can read into this much. It could just be quite simply the demographic of the typical national voter prefers to wait until Election day.
    
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    October 20, 2020 4:52pm
  - SGA
    
    As Isobar says, you can’t read too much into that – it may just means that the people who voted early were very clear on their preference, more of those who waited were always wavering more between the two. Extrapolating from that is probably a waste of time.
    
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    October 20, 2020 5:32pm
- SGA
  
  Well, yes, that’s been covered pretty well already (here as well, I think). I’m not sure whether you are trying to make a specific point?
  
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  October 20, 2020 3:03pm
  - Steve Todd
    
    Okay. Sorry, SGA. I missed that.
    
    I was just confirming for Kiwibloggers, with some actual numbers, that early voting was indeed in favour of Labour, and that National and ACT voters did their best to correct things on polling day.
    
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    October 20, 2020 4:03pm
    - SGA
      
      More likely that those who were very clear on their preferences (Labour or National) were more likely to vote early, and more of those who hadn’t made their mind (ACT or National, National or Labour) left it until later.
      
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      October 20, 2020 5:36pm
Critical Thinker

If this insanely Orwellian 1984 dystopia descending upon the entire world doesn’t rattle you to your core, you’re obviously not paying attention ? ? ?

Tucker Carlson on the continued attempts to cover-up the Biden emails: “The most powerful people in the world aligned to censor the news.”
https://youtu.be/cW6mc2fAtfA?t=46
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October 20, 2020 2:30pm
I remember when

As it is always hard to accept that overseas totals may be a true representation:
New Zealand Covid-19.
From the 30th May to 18 October using Worldometer.
382 Cases
63 Still active
3 Deaths
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October 20, 2020 2:33pm
cmm

CNN does the 5 knuckle shuffle on Zoom…

https://nypost.com/2020/10/19/jeffrey-toobin-was-masturbating-in-front-of-new-yorker-bigs-report/
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October 20, 2020 2:37pm
- Critical Thinker
  
  Video of the Zoom call recording that got Jeffrey Toobin suspended from The New Yorker ?
  
  https://twitter.com/drefanzor/status/1318288243394191361
  
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  October 20, 2020 2:49pm
  - cmm
    
    Got more watches than the average CNN show… maybe they will re-hire him and give him a raise.
    
    3 1
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    October 20, 2020 4:41pm
- Inandout
  
  This guy is typical of the slugs who vote Democrat, and sadly he is another NY Jew who thinks a liberal life is just great.
  
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  October 20, 2020 5:57pm
Engelbert Humperdink

What the everloving heck…

…of course after the election

“Kirsten Dunst’s nanny allowed into NZ while borders closed.”
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October 20, 2020 2:46pm
UrbanNeocolonialist

English law in Wales set the death penalty for stealing a sheep. Welshmen caught stealing sheep would claim to be making love to them.

They would get a lesser penalty for beastiality. The consequence of this is Welshmen gained a reputation as ‘sheep shaggers’.
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October 20, 2020 2:48pm
lifesgood

It would be interesting to know how many prisoners voted and also how many of the many thousands of recent returnees voted.
I suspect the prisoners would mostly vote Labour and the returnees would have seen nothing but syrupy, sycophantic stories about Jacinda in the international press.
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October 20, 2020 2:59pm
Critical Thinker

Google Program Manager: Google “Trying to Play God” via “Drivers of Algorithms” in Favour of the Democrats in the 2020 Election

https://youtu.be/w9uT8zve9wk?t=187
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October 20, 2020 3:06pm
Paulus

I understand some extraordinary sights in the Beehive today when the new MPs and others met in the Cabinet Office.
Ardern arrived and the noise was exceptional being heard all over the building. This was shreaking and similar the likes you hear only from Labour Woman supporters in mood of ecstacy. This is like, as I understand from the media who were in the Cabinet Office too, the same as has been seen all along when Ardern walked the streets.
“Jacinda Cult” had arrived.
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October 20, 2020 3:25pm
Engelbert Humperdink

A polite request to our Gracious Host. Can we have uptickers and downtickers identified? Please, and thank you.

It would add a valuable feedback loop and I for one am entirely fine with my feedback being allocated back to myself, me and I.
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October 20, 2020 3:40pm
- Swifty
  
  No, that feature is not provided.
  
  DPF has said this previously.
  
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  October 20, 2020 7:54pm
  - Engelbert Humperdink
    
    May I ask what the rationale is?
    
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    October 20, 2020 9:03pm
- Engelbert Humperdink
  
  Well! the downtickers have voted for continued anonymity. Who’d have thunk it. Invertebrates…
  
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  October 20, 2020 9:03pm
greybeard

There are now advertisements on NewstalkZB referring to “Waka Kotahi Transport Agency”.
The words “New Zealand” have been omitted.
( New Zealand Transport Agency ).
Or am I wrong ?
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October 20, 2020 5:01pm
- Inandout
  
  grey, it comes after the pidgin English, quietly said admitedly.
  
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  October 20, 2020 5:50pm
  - cha
    
    It’s all pidgin.
    
    pidgin
    /ˈpɪdʒɪn/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    noun: pidgin; plural noun: pidgin
    
    […]
    
    Origin
    late 19th century: Chinese alteration of English business .
    Translate pidgin to
    Use over time for: pidgin
    Definitions from Oxford Languages
    
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    October 20, 2020 8:18pm
oldfella

“Ardern’s catch of the day: moral support from a good bloke”.
Women don’t need men to succeed in politics but if they are choosing one, there is now a Kiwi template.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/ardern-s-catch-of-the-day-moral-support-from-a-good-bloke-20201018-p56685.html
Is there an emoticon for ‘I just threw up!?’
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October 20, 2020 5:06pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  ?
  
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  October 20, 2020 8:03pm
  - 70andstilllearning
    
    That’ll doo 🙂 🙂
    
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    October 20, 2020 8:38pm
surfing

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/police-investigating-after-at-least-60-sexual-assault-allegations-made-against-wellington-musicians/ZCN3CRG3WEYJL6HUKHILSE47UA/

Easy to find out who these musicians are — not my type of music at all.

There are detailed stories posted to twitter from a large number of victims. It is hard to even believe this is true given the huge numbers of alleged victims.How could such offending against a large number of people for a period of at least several years be contained? Almost unbelievable.

The next ‘roastbusters’, but far far worse.
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October 20, 2020 5:28pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Did everyone forget about Hillary, Bill, Obama and Schiff? Don’t let the Biden’s distract you from the other cover ups.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9c1FMvHLb0&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2ZpwQN0oHd_mf1Vk2w18nPKsVWfSop6m0q_63InoXcv_1ugtMei6yDvKo
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October 20, 2020 5:54pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Where has everyone gone? Labour Party pissups for a week – including ‘Labour Day?’
This is a 3 more years pissup, and your unborn great grandchildren will still be paying for it in South Venezuela will pay. No inheritance for them, just owing money forever
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October 20, 2020 6:33pm
- barnacle bill
  
  Just as well we are not all pessimists like you Steve.
  
  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/brian-fallow-govt-debt-worry-about-something-else/GM7G4R6HMB6VR7IRJ4ZQMKO374/
  
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  October 20, 2020 7:27pm
  - Swifty
    
    Yep, owing much, much more than you owed last year is no problem at all.
    
    Especially when you’ve consumed that cash not invested it in income producing endeavours.
    
    Barnacle Bill – you are a very dim person.
    
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    October 20, 2020 7:59pm
    - barnacle bill
      
      Ah, Swifty is slinging insults again.
      
      I would far sooner believe a well known economist any day than the idiot replies from you.
      
      Go and get your knitting needles out and make a few peggy squares.
      
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      October 20, 2020 8:46pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

https://babylonbee.com/news/amazing-this-mind-reader-can-instantly-guess-peoples-pronouns-with-999-accuracy?
No need for description if you can read the link.
Try hard to read the link first, instead of moaning to the Mods
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October 20, 2020 6:37pm
Fletch

A bakery in the U.S has successfully predicted the last 9 elections in a kind of straw poll based on their sale of cookies featuring the visages of each candidate. This time? It’s close, but –

As of Monday, 8,439 Donald Trump cookies have been sold and 7,052 Joe Biden cookies have been sold, according to the bakery’s Facebook

https://www.wlwt.com/article/busken-bakerys-cookie-poll-has-accurately-predicted-winner-of-past-9-elections/34419625#
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October 20, 2020 8:24pm

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